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Killoss
09-19-2010, 04:35 PM
Just curious on what people think is the better melee DPS builds ... I tend to prefer DPS=Def/Life over DPS>Def/Life

I had sent a Pm to a high lvl on argonesson when I was a noob and asked if my buld was okay ( I don't remember who for the life of me)

Not going into specifics as most people know how to swing a big weapon.....

I made a dwarf pure fighter specing dwarf axe mods+ kensai greataxe mods and all the other slash feats etc etc

He told me that was the best DPS/tank build end game and I tend to agree, I like my dwarf axe fighter I use the greataxe with the crit feat to good measure for nice high near 200pt crits at lvl 10 buffed, when approached with a tanking situation I still have the free Daxe feat+ axe spec from the dwarf line and a hardy +5 shield for higher AC.

IMHO I think that is the best DPS and tank build for melee ranking way up on the DPS charts but bland and plain for Def.

Soo finally.. Ideas tips? whats the better DPS melee builds?

Consumer
09-19-2010, 05:08 PM
Title being best not max you will get a lot of different opinions.

Your Dwarf Fighter will be trumped by a WF Great Sword user due to better weapon choice and better enhancements.

The problem with sending a tell to high levels is that most of them are oblivious to actual DPS numbers and go by what they think is best. As getting to level 20 is a matter of time rather than skill you will find a lot of bad players at cap.

The ->best<- is imo a WF epic SoS using Fighter.

However when U7 comes out Rogues will be able to take the Oppurtunist feat taking their already top DPS even higher, when this happens the damage they can give out (over 650 DPS) will outweigh the cost of having low HP.

Killoss
09-19-2010, 09:26 PM
true, I thought the WF route too tho, may have higher DPS but at what a cost for the lower heal rate from clerics and Unless your a twink probabley lower AC due to docents being very rare ( I can't seem to find good ones anyways).


Although great input thanks, I've tried a bit of the WF, not really my type.

As far as the rogue thing... I don't see that coming anytime soon *in a working perspective* I just wish they'd come out with the sorc evoker already! lol

Dwarfo
09-22-2010, 10:05 AM
The ->best<- is imo a WF epic SoS using Fighter.


you mean a WF fighter using a epic SoS? lol

Khanyth
09-22-2010, 10:08 AM
28 pt 2HF Dwarven Savage of the Wild premade path.

F.T.W.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.... and don't be impressed or tricked by "numbers" or "facts"

Savage of the Wild. Dwarf. 28 pt. 2HF.

It's the only way to go.

Qezuzu
09-22-2010, 10:29 AM
After U7, Rogues will be able to increase their DPS by up to 12% (most may take 9/6%, as Improved Evasion and Crippling Strike are both very good. I'm planning on taking Improved Evasion+3xOpp once I TR). With a RadianceII rapier, which is also getting a bug fix in U7, you can rip almost any trash to shreds. Even yesterday, using AP 30% haste boost, haste the spell, and SUBTLE BACKSTABBING 20%, I took a Redname's aggro from a TRed WF Barbarian (who was also attacking, by the way, and also had haste) in an Epic quest.

Rogue are supreme DPS, but have many weaknesses. First off, they are unable to Sneak Attack Undead, Constructs, Elementals, and Oozes. They have very low AC (my 20rog only has 32. Even with optimal gear you can't get anything very useful in endgame), and lower HP (not as low as some say. +400 HP is very obtainable with decent gear. You can get +200 HP from items alone).

And not only can Rogues DPS, they can also use UMD to be self-sufficient, and can, of course, get rid of traps.

Dylvish
09-29-2010, 02:55 PM
Title being best not max you will get a lot of different opinions.

Your Dwarf Fighter will be trumped by a WF Great Sword user due to better weapon choice and better enhancements.

The problem with sending a tell to high levels is that most of them are oblivious to actual DPS numbers and go by what they think is best. As getting to level 20 is a matter of time rather than skill you will find a lot of bad players at cap.

The ->best<- is imo a WF epic SoS using Fighter.

However when U7 comes out Rogues will be able to take the Oppurtunist feat taking their already top DPS even higher, when this happens the damage they can give out (over 650 DPS) will outweigh the cost of having low HP.

I dont know about weapons selection, but for stats and bonuses (More str, more enhancement bonus) I would have to say that after U7 Horcs > WF for 2h fighter damage, although they wont be as tough as WF.

Aaxeyu
09-29-2010, 03:04 PM
you mean a WF fighter using a epic SoS? lol

It's the epic sos that uses the fighter!

JustWinBaby
09-29-2010, 03:08 PM
Pure Halfling Rogue of course :)

+17d6 for SA damage? I like. 3% chance to Double-strike? I like.

Crystalizer
10-11-2010, 03:39 AM
what twf nerf are you talking about OP ?
about dps many threads give you a good idea of the best dps builds
my choice atm is a dwarf monster, and i started a pure halfling rogue
anyway in ddo the best dps class changes regularly, play the build you like the most
as long as you play a melee class and dont gimp your build, this is mostly a question of time to get the best dps items/weapons

Guilllotine
11-10-2010, 12:59 PM
what twf nerf are you talking about OP ?
about dps many threads give you a good idea of the best dps builds
my choice atm is a dwarf monster, and i started a pure halfling rogue
anyway in ddo the best dps class changes regularly, play the build you like the most
as long as you play a melee class and dont gimp your build, this is mostly a question of time to get the best dps items/weapons

I agree with this opinion. The "best" melee dps changes all the time. You can never go wrong with fighter however, whether hes a THF or TWF. They just rock all around. Especially with horcs available.

Razcar
11-10-2010, 03:45 PM
I would say the best DPS was my gf when I put a new blue t-shirt in the white laundry by mistake. She must have topped 650-700, but she does have Favored Enemy: Chaotic Boyfriend.

Consumer
11-10-2010, 03:49 PM
I would say the best DPS was my gf when I put a new blue t-shirt in the white laundry by mistake. She must have topped 650-700, but she does have Favored Enemy: Chaotic Boyfriend.

Should have cast hold monster, although after that I could imagine her being red named.

Razcar
11-10-2010, 03:52 PM
Should have cast hold monster, although after that I could imagine her being red named.Purple, mate, purple. Purple named, purple faced, purple laundry

LordSemaj
11-15-2010, 06:25 PM
you mean a WF fighter using a epic SoS? lol

In soviet Eberron, sword swings you. Nah, he actually meant WF epic-sos-using Fighter, but didn't use the dashes.


I dont know about weapons selection, but for stats and bonuses (More str, more enhancement bonus) I would have to say that after U7 Horcs > WF for 2h fighter damage, although they wont be as tough as WF.

This. Half-orc 2H Fighter with an SoS will be swinging for barbarian levels with a hell of a lot more feats to pump it. Life/Def is also a bit easier when you CAN be healed by the cleric.


Pure Halfling Rogue of course :)

+17d6 for SA damage? I like. 3% chance to Double-strike? I like.
The sneak attack damage is around 75 per swing when a rogue hits a mob that can be sneak attacked (many many can't) and effectively COUNTS as critical damage so it is not multiplied while fighters are already hitting for over 100 with maximum accuracy and power attack while being capable of multiplying that supremely through power criticals. Fighter capstone is also +7% better than that rogue's chance to double strike.

AylinIsAwesome
11-15-2010, 08:22 PM
This. Half-orc 2H Fighter with an SoS will be swinging for barbarian levels with a hell of a lot more feats to pump it. Life/Def is also a bit easier when you CAN be healed by the cleric.

You can get over 100% healing amp on a Warforged.


The sneak attack damage is around 75 per swing when a rogue hits a mob that can be sneak attacked (many many can't) and effectively COUNTS as critical damage so it is not multiplied while fighters are already hitting for over 100 with maximum accuracy and power attack while being capable of multiplying that supremely through power criticals. Fighter capstone is also +7% better than that rogue's chance to double strike.

Sneak Attack damage doesn't "count" as critical damage. The only thing they have in common is that they're both stopped by Fortification their similarities end there.

Opportunist also lowers mob Fortification, something which the Fighter capstone doesn't do.

LordSemaj
11-15-2010, 09:17 PM
You can get over 100% healing amp on a Warforged.You can get over 200% on a non-Warforged.


Sneak Attack damage doesn't "count" as critical damage. The only thing they have in common is that they're both stopped by Fortification their similarities end there.Critical damage is multiplied. Sneak attack damage isn't, because it's already critical damage.


Opportunist also lowers mob Fortification, something which the Fighter capstone doesn't do.Granting the rogue the occasional sneak attack while the fighter is outputting continuous high damage. Balances out against Fortified mobs, severely topples to the fighter's favor against unshielded ones.

AylinIsAwesome
11-15-2010, 09:27 PM
You can get over 200% on a non-Warforged.

And...somehow not having over 200% is the same as "not being able to be healed"?


Critical damage is multiplied. Sneak attack damage isn't, because it's already critical damage.

Sneak Attack damage is not "critical" damage. The only thing the two have in common is that both are blocked by Fortification.

I don't know how I can make that any clearer.


Granting the rogue the occasional sneak attack while the fighter is outputting continuous high damage. Balances out against Fortified mobs, severely topples to the fighter's favor against unshielded ones.

Lowered fortification also grants extra critical attacks as well you know. The Rogue can get the highest DPS, but it's situational on not having aggro and not fighting things with lots of Fortification.

PopeJual
11-15-2010, 09:42 PM
OP, when you say, "the best," what do you want to be the best at?

Do you want to be the best at killing Evil Outsiders like Demons and Devils?

Do you want to be the best at rampaging your way through Epic content?

Do you want to be the best at rampaging through very high level non-Epic content? (and I've heard convincing arguments that Elite Amrath quests are harder than some Epics)

Do you want to be able to do all of this on your own or are you okay with needing a Cleric/FvS babysitter who has their blue bar plugged directly into your red bar with an IV?

Even if you're just looking at straight up Damage Per Second, you still have to be more specific. Are you looking for DPS vs. generic monsters in most quests? vs. Undead and Constructs? vs. Demon/Devil bosses? vs. 0% fortification? 50% fortification? 100% fortification?

These details make a big difference. Yes, I know that this is a thread necro, but I still think that people who ask this kind of question need to understand that they won't get useful answers unless they get a little more specific.

Gulnar13
11-16-2010, 10:27 AM
A WF monk. With eSoS implanted as FISTS.

Seriously; imho, prolly a HO under 25%, barbarian or fighter, with eSoS. Or, against demon/devils, a KotC HO paladin with eSoS. Under 25%.

LordSemaj
11-17-2010, 10:58 AM
And...somehow not having over 200% is the same as "not being able to be healed"?Or the fact that the ability to gain healing amp is a universally shared trait and not a loophole for the Warforged's healing resistance.



Sneak Attack damage is not "critical" damage. The only thing the two have in common is that both are blocked by Fortification.

I don't know how I can make that any clearer.I don't know how I can make this any clearer... Sneak attack damage is the same damage type as critical damage, this is on the programmer's level and fundamental to basic D&D rules. That's why both are stopped by Fort, that's why Sneak attacks are not multiplied on crits, and your persistent retaliation is naught but arguing semantics.


Lowered fortification also grants extra critical attacks as well you know. The Rogue can get the highest DPS, but it's situational on not having aggro and not fighting things with lots of Fortification.The Highest DPS -NOT- having aggro while being situationally useless..... Lowered fort permits crits and sneak attacks, but not 100% of the time... the Rogue still has to contend with the fighter's naturally high damage and damage boosting effects, so unless you are commenting on a dual Heavy Pick rogue versus held mobs with Fort, the balance is maintained between Fighters and Rogues until you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor) or face the undead (Fighter slamdunks again).

This keen differential in mechanics keeps Fighters favored in epics and a far cry everywhere else.

Krag
11-17-2010, 11:22 AM
The Highest DPS -NOT- having aggro while being situationally useless..... Lowered fort permits crits and sneak attacks, but not 100% of the time... the Rogue still has to contend with the fighter's naturally high damage and damage boosting effects, so unless you are commenting on a dual Heavy Pick rogue versus held mobs with Fort, the balance is maintained between Fighters and Rogues until you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor) or face the undead (Fighter slamdunks again).

Fighters (Kensei) hate fighting undead because they have to swap their favorite weapons to deal with DR.

LordSemaj
11-17-2010, 11:31 AM
Fighters (Kensei) hate fighting undead because they have to swap their favorite weapons to deal with DR.And rogues don't? Piercing damage DR, crit/SA immunity, and not enough STR to effectively ignore slash/blunt DRs. Fighter has feats on his side, not just Kensei, and a power attacking fighter can dps through undead DR if in a pinch.

dkyle
11-17-2010, 11:39 AM
Or the fact that the ability to gain healing amp is a universally shared trait and not a loophole for the Warforged's healing resistance.

Healing amp is something that, for most characters, doesn't need to go beyond a certain point. A WF with 112% healing amp is not really hurting that much compared to a non-WF with 170%. Most heals over-heal anyway. Healing amp allows WF to get to the point where it's good enough.


I don't know how I can make this any clearer... Sneak attack damage is the same damage type as critical damage, this is on the programmer's level and fundamental to basic D&D rules.

No it isn't. Critical damage is still subject to DR, SA never is. Fort simply prevents two different types of damage: critical damage, and sneak attack damage. SA isn't multiplied because the rules specifically say "Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits)", not because sneak attack damage is somehow already critical damage.


you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor)

Wait... you're saying that Fighters are better than Rogues vs. enemies with no Fort? Yeah, that's definitely not true. Rogues bury everything else vs. non-fort when they don't have aggro.

Gumbolo
11-17-2010, 11:40 AM
And rogues don't? Piercing damage DR, crit/SA immunity, and not enough STR to effectively ignore slash/blunt DRs. Fighter has feats on his side, not just Kensei, and a power attacking fighter can dps through undead DR if in a pinch.

Opportunity feat reduces fortification, also not enough str? You seem to be forgetting that there's fairly a lot of strength based rogues with power attack.

LordSemaj
11-17-2010, 01:29 PM
Since few people seem to be reading the threads and would rather keen in on out of context observations, please refer to the originality clauses below...


Healing amp is something that, for most characters, doesn't need to go beyond a certain point. A WF with 112% healing amp is not really hurting that much compared to a non-WF with 170%. Most heals over-heal anyway. Healing amp allows WF to get to the point where it's good enough.
Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter > Warforged Fighter for SEVERAL reasons, only one of which was lack of a need to resort to healing amp. Again, not knocking the viability of a warforged being healed, so engaging in the conversation would be preferable to resorting to sniping.


No it isn't. Critical damage is still subject to DR, SA never is. Fort simply prevents two different types of damage: critical damage, and sneak attack damage. SA isn't multiplied because the rules specifically say "Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits)", not because sneak attack damage is somehow already critical damage.
Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding Epic SoS > Rogue dual wielding Sneak Attacks, remains valid as proven by the DPS charts on epic runs with a mix of fortified and unfortified mobs. Venture a build for the rogue that surpasses, bearing in mind that twinking out a rogue to have 200 hps and obscene damage is not a valid build (completely theory crafted build that cannot function in the real setting).


Wait... you're saying that Fighters are better than Rogues vs. enemies with no Fort? Yeah, that's definitely not true. Rogues bury everything else vs. non-fort when they don't have aggro.Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding EPIC SoS > Rogue vs No Fort enemy... there's a significant difference between Rogue strength levels and Half-orc Fighter strength levels, and rogue PrEs are poorly built for damage enhancement. Relying solely on Sneak Attack as the crutch for dps gets adequately surpassed by enhancements/feats/items when referring to the Title subject, namely Best Melee DPS.

Keening in on choice phrases doesn't reflect on the reason for the discussion, or the comments that specifically denote the top contender. Failing to grasp any of that, you may supplement the argument with the idea that this can all be construed as opinion since there is no defined parameters for Best.


Opportunity feat reduces fortification, also not enough str? You seem to be forgetting that there's fairly a lot of strength based rogues with power attack.Sneak Attack
Description Adds 1d6 damage when attacking enemies while hidden or if enemy is engaged in melee combat with another character. Can be use with ranged weapons within 30 feet. Benefit increases by 1d6 at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19. Does not affect undead, plants, constructs or oozes.

You were saying?

dkyle
11-17-2010, 02:03 PM
Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter > Warforged Fighter for SEVERAL reasons, only one of which was lack of a need to resort to healing amp. Again, not knocking the viability of a warforged being healed, so engaging in the conversation would be preferable to resorting to sniping.


Life/Def is also a bit easier when you CAN be healed by the cleric.

Sounds like a knock to me. You suggested that WF healing penalty was a major problem. Someone else noted that it can be overcome with healing amp. You suggested that WF healing penalty was still significant even when they get above 100%, since a non-WF would have "200%". I noted that 200% is excessive, and not very useful in most cases. A WF with over 100% is not facing a significant penalty in healing compared to any non-WF.


Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding Epic SoS > Rogue dual wielding Sneak Attacks, remains valid as proven by the DPS charts on epic runs with a mix of fortified and unfortified mobs.

What chart? Why is it on "epic runs"? Is it somehow incorporating auto-crits? That sounds like a weird chart.

All the charts I've seen have pure rogues heads and shoulders above everything else.


Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding EPIC SoS > Rogue vs No Fort enemy... there's a significant difference between Rogue strength levels and Half-orc Fighter strength levels, and rogue PrEs are poorly built for damage enhancement.

So is the rogue getting SA here or not? It's a no fort enemy, so he should. If he isn't for some reason, well, obviously the fighter will out-DPS him. If he is, how is this different than your previous "original statement"?


Relying solely on Sneak Attack as the crutch for dps gets adequately surpassed by enhancements/feats/items when referring to the Title subject, namely Best Melee DPS.

Damage is damage. Rogues can apply sneak attack consistently to the main enemies we care about. That makes them top DPS, in most situations. Your blanket statements that Fighters are better DPS than Rogues are puzzling.


Keening in on choice phrases doesn't reflect on the reason for the discussion, or the comments that specifically denote the top contender.

You made certain statements, I replied to them to the best of my ability. Perhaps you should be clearer?


Does not affect undead, plants, constructs or oozes.

So? Who cares? Everyone sucks at fighting those, and the most important enemies are none of those things. And if we're after "max DPS", we're going to be looking at non-fortified mobs.

Edit: Perhaps it would be helpful if you provided a little context yourself. Tracing through the thread, it would seem you were objecting to the Opportunist feat being applied to undead. My understanding is that in DDO, as currently implemented, Opportunist is allowing SA on undead.

LordSemaj
11-17-2010, 02:22 PM
Sounds like a knock to me. You suggested that WF healing penalty was a major problem. Someone else noted that it can be overcome with healing amp. You suggested that WF healing penalty was still significant even when they get above 100%, since a non-WF would have "200%". I noted that 200% is excessive, and not very useful in most cases. A WF with over 100% is not facing a significant penalty in healing compared to any non-WF.Never suggested anything close to a "major problem", never suggested that the penalty was "still significant", and in both cases stated that healing amp is a universal characteristic. Each case points out one simple thing, that there exists a penalty and little else. What YOU are inferring is that the penalty in no way, shape, or form hinders the Warforged any more than a Half-orc that lacks said penalty.

That is quite the egregious statement to make on your part.


What chart? Why is it on "epic runs"? Is it somehow incorporating auto-crits? That sounds like a weird chart.

All the charts I've seen have pure rogues heads and shoulders above everything else.The thread is relating to top dps contenders, the better question is why WOULDN'T it be measured on epic runs, especially considering the characters are expected and stated as having epic items? The DPS charts is a pseudonym for statistical comparison of running meters between similarly geared characters. Said meter can be downloaded as an addon.


So is the rogue getting SA here or not? It's a no fort enemy, so he should. If he isn't for some reason, well, obviously the fighter will out-DPS him. If he is, how is this different than your previous "original statement"?Why are you looking for differences? These multiple chains are spamming from single comments, of course the comments will remain unchanged across multiple instances, that is called CONSISTENCY. Just because a gaggle of forum trolls break apart a single post into seven bullets does not mean you will be finding seven original statements to combat them.

Regarding the SAs, yes the rogue is getting SAs and no he isn't surpassing the HORC kensei wielding the most broken weapon in the game. Two-weapon fighting is a classic option, until Epic SoS is involved. Much like Rogue sneak attacks, certain game items change the rules entirely.


Damage is damage. Rogues can apply sneak attack consistently to the main enemies we care about. That makes them top DPS, in most situations. Your blanket statements that Fighters are better DPS than Rogues are puzzling.Your blanket statement, not mine. My statement was regarding a half-orc fighter wielding epic sword of shadow with the proper build and gear. Subsequent statements where that is shorted to "fighter" are purely for space saving purposes, so let's not be anal retentive, shall we?


You made certain statements, I replied to them to the best of my ability. Perhaps you should be clearer?Clear as day:

Half-orc Kensei wielding Epic Sword of Shadow is the BEST Melee DPS in the game.


So? Who cares? Everyone sucks at fighting those, and the most important enemies are none of those things. And if we're after "max DPS", we're going to be looking at non-fortified mobs.We are looking at the best melee dps, not the max dps, not the max dps except against undead, not the max dps except against fortified mobs, not the max dps at the expense of survival, and certainly not the max burst dps (otherwise a chain-casting polar ray caster wins hands down).

Again, reread the thread, particularly the author's post, prior to hitting the Post Reply button. Saves a lot of time.

Vengenance
11-17-2010, 05:47 PM
The healability of a WF is a moot topic. Best tanks are and will continue to be WF. They have hate enhacements, WF PA enhancements, con enhancements, racial tactics line, and can be healed easily by both Arcane and Divine Magic. They also can be healed when cursed (important for VOD and TOD).

Highest DPS class, probably a HO Barb, at least at present or a multi-class Kensaii/Barb combo.

AylinIsAwesome
11-17-2010, 09:21 PM
Regarding the SAs, yes the rogue is getting SAs and no he isn't surpassing the HORC kensei wielding the most broken weapon in the game. Two-weapon fighting is a classic option, until Epic SoS is involved. Much like Rogue sneak attacks, certain game items change the rules entirely.

News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

PopeJual
11-17-2010, 09:47 PM
News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

But sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by critical hits and fighting THF instead of TWF means you miss out on about 45% of your Sneak Attack damage.

Qezuzu
11-17-2010, 10:31 PM
News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

They can, but TWF is superior to THF in every case for Rogues.

The non-SAable monsters aren't much of a problem. Plants are in one area. Oozes are just annoying and largely nonexistent in endgame. Elementals are tough on everyone, and get dominated by casters. Undead get ***PWNED by casters so the DPS anyone can do on them is moot in a well balanced party.

Any halfling assassin can get 17d6+28 damage. A rogue built for insane DPS, however, will focus on the base damage. i.e. STR based. I have a halfling STR based assassin rogue. I will be getting PA on it once I get an item to no-fail heal scrolls and drop Skill Focus: UMD. I've also been running Fens for the epic Claw set. After that, my base damage will be about 50% of my SA damage.

My rogue is also TRed, so I get +1 to SA damage. I also have the clickie that gives +10 to damage for 3 mins. While using that, plus 30% haste, haste pots, rage pots, Titan's grip, I will and have stolen aggro from a barb using eSoS. While using -30% hate. And with +9 damage to come. I also don't use Kopheses.

I don't know where your facts are coming from, but they're false. Rogues are top DPS on 0-fort, unaggroed mobs. Period. And if you're giving the comparable fighter an eSoS, then the rogue's DPS should be measured on a 0-fort mob. Leave the undead out of it. Nearly all mobs that are vulnerable to SA's have 0-fort anyway.

Lastly, your statement;-


Venture a build for the rogue that surpasses, bearing in mind that twinking out a rogue to have 200 hps and obscene damage is not a valid build (completely theory crafted build that cannot function in the real setting).

Really eats away at your credibility. (base 10 con) Rogues get a min of 140 HP. 200 HP for a base CON of 16, which does not reduce DPS. 290 HP for using a GFL and a +6 CON item, which does not reduce DPS. 312 for toughness feat, which does not reduce DPS. 332 for the two toughness AP's, which does not reduce DPS. 352 for a +2 CON tome, which does not reduce DPS. etc.

And also leads me to believe you have absolutely never rolled a Rogue and have never encountered a truly Epic Rogue™.

AylinIsAwesome
11-17-2010, 10:35 PM
But sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by critical hits and fighting THF instead of TWF means you miss out on about 45% of your Sneak Attack damage.

Yes, though the person I was replying to was using the brokenness of the eSos as the basis for his argument that Horc Fighters are better DPS than Rogues.

Just saying that the weapon isn't exclusive to a single class.

AylinIsAwesome
11-17-2010, 10:36 PM
They can, but TWF is superior to THF in every case for Rogues.

The non-SAable monsters aren't much of a problem. Plants are in one area. Oozes are just annoying and largely nonexistent in endgame. Elementals are tough on everyone, and get dominated by casters. Undead get ***PWNED by casters so the DPS anyone can do on them is moot in a well balanced party.

Any halfling assassin can get 17d6+28 damage. A rogue built for insane DPS, however, will focus on the base damage. i.e. STR based. I have a halfling STR based assassin rogue. I will be getting PA on it once I get an item to no-fail heal scrolls and drop Skill Focus: UMD. I've also been running Fens for the epic Claw set. After that, my base damage will be about 50% of my SA damage.

My rogue is also TRed, so I get +1 to SA damage. I also have the clickie that gives +10 to damage for 3 mins. While using that, plus 30% haste, haste pots, rage pots, Titan's grip, I will and have stolen aggro from a barb using eSoS. While using -30% hate. And with +9 damage to come. I also don't use Kopheses.

I don't know where your facts are coming from, but they're false. Rogues are top DPS on 0-fort, unaggroed mobs. Period. And if you're giving the comparable fighter an eSoS, then the rogue's DPS should be measured on a 0-fort mob. Leave the undead out of it. Nearly all mobs that are vulnerable to SA's have 0-fort anyway.

Lastly, your statement;-



Really eats away at your credibility. (base 10 con) Rogues get a min of 140 HP. 200 HP for a base CON of 16, which does not reduce DPS. 290 HP for using a GFL and a +6 CON item, which does not reduce DPS. 312 for toughness feat, which does not reduce DPS. 332 for the two toughness AP's, which does not reduce DPS. 352 for a +2 CON tome, which does not reduce DPS. etc.

And also leads me to believe you have absolutely never rolled a Rogue and have never encountered a truly Epic Rogue™.

^ Right on all counts.

Razcar
11-18-2010, 02:17 AM
DPS over 5 minutes of fighting:

Half-Orc 20th level kensai, 56 Str, with ESoS
0 Fort: 577.4
50 Fort: 398.26
100 Fort: 219.12

Half-Orc 20th level rogue, 44 Str, with Min II khopesh
0 Fort: 642.6
40 Fort: 449.42
90 Fort: 261.14