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Feanor74
09-13-2010, 08:46 AM
Hi there - first of all: I am not a power gamer and playing free to play. So I am not looking for the build that might reach the highest DPS at level 20 but a nice, safe and funny way to play the game - lets call is "casual playing" ;-)

My first "approach" was a simple THW fighter but I realized soon that every enemy wizard - like kobold shamans - will "hold" me, "fear" me, "f*ck" me, etc. and I got killed in the sewers many times.

So I decided to try something else: Why not create a build that has not the impressive kill speed and DPS of the THW fighter but instead is the ultimativ mage killer - resillient, tough and iron minded. So I thought of going multiclass with Pally levels - at least 2 in order to get the CHA-bonus on my safes.

The next idea was to be able to self-heal and self-buff. Wouldn't a few cleric levels just match perfectly in this build?

The last idea was to skip fighter completly and go ranger instead - getting free bonus feats, more skill points to max search and for example UMD and getting way more flexible with feats for effective ranged combat and TWF.

So my flexible, self-healing, self-buffing, high safe roll "mage killer" whould like like this:
12 Ranger / 2 Pally / 6 Cleric or 12 Ranger / 3 Pally / 5 Cleric

The idea behind this build is that all three classes will benefit from the attribute points I spend in WIS and CHA (and that are missing in STR)

I would start it as an Elf looking like this (32 point build) and would like to reach Temptest I and the elven arcane archer path
STR - 14
DEX - 16
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 14
CHA - 14

Alternatively I would create a drow 12 Fighter / 2 Pally / 6 Cleric and go kensei II but would loose the ranged combat and THW feats.

I would like to have some comments from the experienced pros if one of these two builds might work or if it is a much better way to skip multiclass and do something like Paladin 20 or Paladin 18 / Fighter 2?

r3dl4nce
09-13-2010, 09:10 AM
If you would like to heal while fighting, Radiant Servant II from cleric can be you friend. I', just trying a 12cleric rad servantII/6paladin/2monk human with human improved recovery to maximize the healing aura from radiant servant. It's not a max dps build, nor a full healer. He can help healing with aura, positive energy burst and mass cures while fighting. Skip two weapon fight and go with two hand weapon. Other ideas could be 12 cleric/8fighter kensai I o 12 cleric/6fighter/2monk(or 2 rogue) to get evasion. These are NOT max dps build nor great healers, but could be fun solo play builds :)

Kriogen
09-13-2010, 09:22 AM
...
My first "approach" was a simple THW fighter but I realized soon that every enemy wizard - like kobold shamans - will "hold" me, "fear" me, "f*ck" me, etc. and I got killed in the sewers many times.
...
You don't need some special super build, you just need better Will saves and better spells, buffs, items that make you immune.

Those items, spells exists:
- Warfoged is immune vs many annoying things
- Freedom of Movements spell makes you immune vs many 'hold-like' effects. Ranger, Bard, Cleric, FvS can cast it
- Greater Heroims spell makes you immune vs 'fear-like' effects. You can UMD scrolls, get clickies and Wizard/Sorc/Bard can cast it
- Death Ward spell makes you immune vs 'insta-kill' effects. Easy to get clickie (Tangleroot quest), Cleric/FvS/Paladin can cast it

What you want is a:
- recomended race: Warforged
- Ranger with high UMD like Ranger18/Rogue1/Monk1. Now you know why so called Exploiter is popular
- melee oriented Bard, Warchanter
- Paladin or War Priest with UMD or clickies
- Monk with UMD or clickies
- etc.

Want to say that 'more resiliant, durable, irowilled, self healing, but not No1 DPS fighter' is Ranger or Paladin or something like that. And get a couple of scrolls, items and clickies.

I would recomend Paladin, Ranger or Bard. Pure or a small splash (rogue, fighter, monk).

Therigar
09-13-2010, 09:52 AM
Bad advice so far, let's try to fix that.

1. You cannot have both Tempest and Arcane Archer. The elven AA counts as a ranger PrE even if taken using the elf enhancements so the two are mutually exclusive.

2. As you have already observed, the key is to have a high Will save. If you are going to multiclass then you want classes that will benefit from high WIS and that naturally give higher Will saves. High will saves are found on bard, cleric, favored soul, monk, wizard and sorcerer. Of these, cleric and monk (and to a certain degree favored soul) benefit the most from the WIS stat.

3. If you choose elf you will have long bow and short bow as innate racial weapons. So, you can still pursue elven AA.

4. Paladin splash to L2 gains you CHA bonus to saving throws as you already know. CHA is a useful stat to favored soul and to sorcerer along with bard and paladin. Of course, you cannot splash bard and paladin together because bards cannot be lawful and paladins must be lawful.

What all this means is that if your goal is to gain high Will saves you need to splash together classes that achieve this most effectively. But, you also want a character that will be able to fit into a party somewhat seamlessly and, I presume, also be able to solo successfully.

You also need to consider your race choice and the enhancements that this provides to you. You need to think about how that fits your overall plan.

If it were me I would go with an elf cleric/paladin with the goal of reaching cleric 17/paladin 3. If I have monk available I would go with elf cleric/monk/paladin with the goal of cleric 15/paladin 3/monk 2.

Reasons:

1. Yes, you will not be the most powerful cleric but that isn't your goal. You will be adequate.
2. Monk 2 gives you evasion and WIS bonus to AC. Elven DEX enhancements let you boost DEX as well, meaning you can have a pretty good AC.
3. Paladin 3 gives the saving throw bonus but also gives immunity to fear and disease, two big ticket items IMO.

You can dump STR and INT, instead relying on Weapon Finesse for DEX bonuses to hit when in melee. Going AA means using bows most of the time anyway and DEX will boost that as well.

I would start with stats 8/16/14/8/16/14. As an elf a 14 CON is your most realistic starting value. 16 DEX and WIS give most benefit for build points to the monk splash.

If you do not have monk the stat distribution still works, although I might consider dropping DEX to 14 and CHA to 13 in order to push WIS to 17 in that situation.

Tumarek
09-13-2010, 09:54 AM
For self healing i wouldnt take the 6 levels of cleric. With the 12 level ranger you can use level 3 healing wands. Pack some healing amp from Human, Pally or monk and they should be fine. Clerics just dont make a good multiclass if they dont have 17 or more levels.

I would stick to ranger 6 (tempest I) or 12 (tempest II). Then good options are rogue monk and / or fighter (i am not to familiar with them)..

Here are the key levels for the classes imo:

Ranger 6 : Tempest I, TWF, ITWF, Ram's might, Energy resist or jump swim spell, cure wands and neutralize poison and such

Ranger 12: Tempest II GTWF, few nice spells, evasion


Fighter 1: Weapon and Armor profs, Fighter haste boost, One extra combat feat, Toughness I

Fighter 2: Nother Feat, Strength I

Fighter 6: Kensai II, Feats


Pally 2: Extra saves from char


Rogue 1: Skills, Sneak attack, Rogue Haste boost

Rogue 2: evasion


Monk 1: Wisdom to armor, extra ac, feat

Monk 2: evasion, feat

Monk 3: stances and nice finishers on light path

Monk 9: improved evasion, dark path 500 damage strike


Also if you want to be a caster killer you may consider taking up hide and move silent, Sneak past the melee dudes and kill caster before they can really do something about it.

It is important to only multiclass if you really get something out of it... while 6 levels cleric look nice on the paper they just do much when you are like level 15. You can cast most spells as a ranger anyways (with wands and scrolls) the duration will be very short too. Pally 2 gives you the aura that doesnt do much if you stay a low pally.

Plan ahead and then build the char. Most classes have a good thing on level 1-2 and then the pre's. try to make sure you can take the pre's when you get there (they require feats and enhancement... and some dont come naturally like the tempests spring attack and mobility)

Therigar
09-13-2010, 05:36 PM
Clerics just dont make a good multiclass if they dont have 17 or more levels.

I would stick to ranger 6 (tempest I) or 12 (tempest II). Then good options are rogue monk and / or fighter (i am not to familiar with them).

First, if you are not familiar with something how can you say that it is a good option? If you don't know then don't give advice. Period.

Second, L17 isn't sacred. People forget that we sat on a L16 character cap for a very long time. On top of that, OP stated that their goal was not power gaming but casual, fun gaming. OP is looking for a build that will be functional in the F2P quests. The initial post makes it clear that OP is just learning the game and wants something that will fit a very specific role.

OP really has two choices to get what they are looking for.

Choice 1: Cleric 17/Paladin 3. Take this choice if you do not have access to monk.

Choice 2: Cleric 15/Monk 2/Paladin 3. Take this choice if you do have access to monk.

The reason these are the OP's only choices is that they give the CHA bonus to Will saves that OP wants while pulling maximum benefit from the paladin splash.

Of the two choices I would go with choice 2. IMO the evasion and higher AC potential grossly outweighs the loss of L9 spells. However, OP may not have monk available. In that case choice 1 is better for their purposes than any other cleric/- multiclass.

Note that there are other class combinations that eliminate cleric but they do not offer the self healing that OP is looking for (unless race changes to warforged). Given OP's want list the best options are cleric/paladin or cleric/monk/paladin. If pressed for a third choice I would list cleric/monk. However, I'm not certain monk is available to OP.

SisAmethyst
09-13-2010, 06:18 PM
I guess one even not need to splash. For example on a pure Paladin you can take Force of Personality (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Force_of_Personality) which will take Charisma for you Will saves. Especially in lower levels when the saves are still low this is helpful. You still can treat him most like a THF fighter. Other advantage of a Paladin are the Lay on Hands (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Lay_On_Hands) which is some kind of un-interruptable heal spell and they can nearly use all heal wands which make them pretty self sufficient. Only disadvantage of pure Paladins is that they are tricky to build as they need the stats spread. For that I would suggest the great post of Junts where he as well show a 28pt THF Paladin in A Guide to Creating Paladins (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542).

Also a pure Ranger is already quite solid, as he as well can use heal wands, get some nice buffs and evasion (e.g. for surviving hits from a ogre or a delayed blast fireball without needing 500HP).

Reason I suggest something like this is, as I have seen a lot of players that try'd to follow multi-class builds. Often they sound great but either they are heavy gear dependent, only shine at higher levels or they are easy to screw up (e.g. talking to the wrong trainer at level up) Multiclassing can have big advantages, but most of the time need you to plan a build ahead with a clear picture in mind what you are aiming for and when to take which class with which Feat.

Anyhow I would not worry that much about the content of Waterworks, as with higher level 'being hold' due to a failed will save is the rarest problem, especially if you have noticed those weak points and addressed them. As soon as you for example get some items that boost your saves (like from the end rewards of waterworks or tangelroot) or due to level ups (which depending on your class automatically boost your saves) and enhancements those Kobold casters with hold monster aren't the bad anymore.

If you are not afraid of multi classing (which I assume as you already post here), go ahead try something like Therigar or Tumarek suggested.

Therigar
09-13-2010, 08:49 PM
Alternatively I would create a drow 12 Fighter / 2 Pally / 6 Cleric and go kensei II but would loose the ranged combat and THW feats.

I would like to have some comments from the experienced pros if one of these two builds might work or if it is a much better way to skip multiclass and do something like Paladin 20 or Paladin 18 / Fighter 2?

If you are willing to go with a pure class then the post by SisAmethyst is good advice.

Feanor74
09-14-2010, 04:56 AM
First of all I would like to thank you for your advices. You really made me rethink my concept - for example if selfheal is that important for my melee fighter.

One of the most important news I got is that you can not mix ranger tempest with elfen archane archer enhancement. I "verified" this with the DDO character planer - what I should have done in the first place ;-)

I restarted as an drow ranger and aim for tempest II or III with minimal level splashes (e.g. 18/1/1). I hope that drow spell resistance will help me surviving the kobold shamans without Pally safe bonus.

Currenty I do not have access to monk and what I do not quite understand is why monk is so popular for multiclass splashes. OK, you get a bonus feat for free but the WIS AC bonus does only apply when you do not wear any armor, isn't it? This massivly weakens the benefit or am I getting this wrong?

I can only agree that multiclassing is a difficult and dangerous business in this game. I know D&D from a lot of games like NWN, NWN2 etc. but the additional concept enhancements (replacing the prestige classes) changes a lot.

Talon_Moonshadow
09-14-2010, 08:38 AM
I just want to point out that Clr7 has a lot of nice spells.

unbongwah
09-14-2010, 10:43 AM
I hope that drow spell resistance will help me surviving the kobold shamans without Pally safe bonus.
Not really, or at least not for long. Max drow SR is 20 at lvl 14; that's not enough to do much good at higher levels.

OK, you get a bonus feat for free but the WIS AC bonus does only apply when you do not wear any armor, isn't it?Correct, but the bonus feats and Evasion from monk 2 may still make it worthwhile, since you can wear light armor and still benefit from Evasion.

For what you're after, I think a paladin - either pure or with a monk or rogue splash - is your best bet: high saves, pretty good DPS, enough HPs to help make up for being a squishy elf or drow, self-healing (Lay on Hands, Cure wands). Can you afford any tome(s) for your char?

SisAmethyst
09-14-2010, 12:58 PM
First of all I would like to thank you for your advices. You really made me rethink my concept - for example if selfheal is that important for my melee fighter.

Well, being self sufficient is always good as no one should rely on a healer. On some classes that mean to drink a heal pot, on others you can cast a scroll or wipe a wand. Especially if you solo and take it slow the possibility to use a wand to top you off between fights is king. In combat situations however if you got surrounded only things Lay on Hands, a high AC (which mostly mean a lot of gear investment), evasion, shield blocking and/or a cast of a quicken divine heal spell may safe you as the time you need to wipe a wand you again get a bunch of damage.


One of the most important news I got is that you can not mix ranger tempest with elfen archane archer enhancement. I "verified" this with the DDO character planer - what I should have done in the first place ;-)

Several things in this game not harmonize together - even if you have the freedom to do it - like deep splashing of arcane and divine casters.
For solo play there is a high temptation in the game to create a Jack of all trades which may work till about level 10 but after that deep splashes often reduce the effectiveness of the main class. There are some builds that get this Jack of all trades worked out, but then they are either need a lot of gear, often a 32pt build and/or a insight in the game what works and what not.
For example in the early levels there are rarely any monsters that make fortification important and therefore not obvious, but as soon as you hit the monsters in Gianthold those things make a huge difference. On the other side spells like Cure Light Wounds (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Cure_Light_Wounds) or Charm Person (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Charm_Person) may sound cool in lower levels, but in higher levels they are either to low to be significant or due to missing caster levels no strong enough.


I restarted as an drow ranger and aim for tempest II or III with minimal level splashes (e.g. 18/1/1). I hope that drow spell resistance will help me surviving the kobold shamans without Pally safe bonus.

Drow is a nice race, it is the poor mans 32pt character which work great for builds that need to invest in DEX, CHA or INT. So it can work out very well for your Ranger type character. Anyhow usually not the race but the class you choose determine the progression of your saves like WILL.
However a word to the Spell Resistance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Spell_resistance): This ability only increases the saves against particular spells that can be resisted, which works like an invisible Armor that surrounds you. It should work for Hold Person (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Hold_Person) but for example not against Shout (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Shout).


Currenty I do not have access to monk and what I do not quite understand is why monk is so popular for multiclass splashes. OK, you get a bonus feat for free but the WIS AC bonus does only apply when you do not wear any armor, isn't it? This massivly weakens the benefit or am I getting this wrong?

There are multiple things and the Armor Class is only one point. As crazy as it sounds you can get a higher AC wearing a Robe then with a common Full Plate. The magic here is that there are for example some bonus like Dodge that can stack to AC. Also DEX is an important factor to AC and as a Full Plate protects you it as well hinders you and limit the amount of DEX that you can count for the Armor Class. Think of AC more as combination of physical AND dynamical protection. Further they get additional bonus Feats which is interesting if your main Class is Feat starved. Last but not least Monk splash can offer you Evasion (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Evasion) which (as long as you not wear medium or heavy armor) let you slip away from an incoming damage like a Fireball. But don't worry as Rangers get that with level 9 as well.

Take care and happy leveling ;)

Therigar
09-14-2010, 01:21 PM
As crazy as it sounds you can get a higher AC wearing a Robe then with a common Full Plate.

This is absolutely correct. It is massively gear dependent. For a new player it is not always the best option. For an experienced player who has put in the time to build up an inventory of good gear it is a great choice.

Of all the gear that is needed to achieve this, much of it will not do you any good on your first character. You should still take the gear and save it in your bank. With True Reincarnation you have the ability to restart your character on a second or later life where you will be able to use the gear.

There are a lot of AC threads on the forums. Most important gear includes Icy Raiments (bind to character), AC 8 bracers and Chattering Ring plus some type of +4 insight bonus usually found on a Shroud crafted greensteel weapon. If you come across any of the first three you should hold on to them for yourself (even though there will be big pressure to give them up). Keep in mind that you might not be using them now but you will on your TR'd character.

With almost no effort you can get into the ~65 AC range with UMD and self buffing. That is high enough to solo thru Vale with only remote chances of being hit. It is still very good on remaining content.

However, because it is usually far off for new players it doesn't hurt to build your first character focusing on armor while you build up your inventory of good gear.