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sirgog
09-13-2010, 04:53 AM
Bored with the lack of entertaining forum drama and info on future content, so I thought I'd come up with an idea for a new raid.


Stirring the Hornets' Nest

Raid
Level 15 (normal), 18 (hard), 21 (elite), 26 (epic)

Intended difficulty:
Normal - PUGgable with or without optionals. Requires basic tactics, but is very forgiving of mistakes.
Hard - PUGgable without optionals, tough but possible to PUG with them (similar to Shroud Hard without optionals, or VOD elite with them). Reqires basic tactics and mediocre to decent gear such as non-uber Greater Banes, etc.
Elite - Mean even without optionals (like ToD elite). Should still be beaten within a few days of release. Most guilds should get this down if they try, but will take many, many attempts.
Epic - Intended to be something that isn't beaten for some weeks (especially with optionals). Something for top-notch guilds to battle for gamewide first completions. Requires top-notch gear, a thought-out plan, immediate player reaction to things going wrong (like a tank failing a Trap the Soul save) and flawless execution of that plan.


New foes:
Adult green dragon, wyrmling green dragon, glabrezu (optional)


Encounter summary:
Players battle a green dragon, who unlike other DDO dragons has a few tricks up her sleeve. She can (and will) summon outsiders, throw nasty spells, debuff player Fortification, cause lingering acid clouds after breathing (players need to get out of those fast), and will take to the sky and strafe the party with her lingering breath on occasion.


Storyline:
A powerful and ambitious green dragon, Vilgratha, has come to the attention of the Twelve after she recently travelled to Shavarath. While on the Plane of Battle, Vilgratha single-handedly defeated Glattrack, a glabrezu (a powerful demon) and encased its soul in a gem. Since then, Vilgratha has simply disappeared.
The Twelve are concerned that Vilgratha will forge an alliance with the devil legions of Shavarath. Such an alliance would be a serious threat to Eberron, and they want you to slay the dragon before she can offer her services to the devils.
In order to flush her out of hiding, the Twelve have located the dragon's lair. All that remains is for heroes to assault the lair and threaten her young, in order to goad Vilgratha into returning to defend it.


Setting:
Vilgratha's Lair is in a jungle area, similar to the base of Mount Reysalon. The Twelve teleport you to just outside her lair. The actual battle occurs outdoors, in a large open clearing.

Encounters:
Initially, the players are in a room in the Twelve's Stormreach enclave. Here they can talk to members of the Twelve, who will suggest different strategies the players may wish to use. One suggests merely subduing Vilgratha's young, another suggests slaying her spawn outright 'as it is an evil creatures anyway, and killing it will cause Vilgratha to become enraged and thus less crafty'. (This second member of the Twelve is an agent of the demons, and has made a bargain with Glattrack to free him). Another will open a portal to the lair, which will remain open for only one minute (preventing reentry). There is a shrine present, allowing players to enter the portal rested after fully buffing.
Through the portal, the players first encounter a small number of troglodytes that serve Vilgratha. None are particularly powerful, and these foes serve the same purpose as ToD trash - they are there to set the tone of the raid, rather than to pose any major challenge to players. (Players are advised to slay them, however).
The players quickly find the central clearing, where Vilgratha's wyrmling rests. The wyrmling is not a difficult battle, and will cease resistance and attempt to hide at 25% hp. (Players may slay it at this point, doing so will change the Vilgratha fight, see optionals).
Once the wyrmling surrenders, Vilgratha appears through a Gate spell. (If the players wish to kill the wyrmling, they have twenty seconds to do so).
Vilgratha attacks the party. At 75%, she calls for help - at this stage, any trash that wan not slain by the party earlier appears. At 50%, she casts Gate, summoning Nythaxtor, a Pit Fiend. At 40% she flies overhead and strafes the party (see Overhead Phase). At 20%, she summons a large number of additional mobs, then flies overhead again. At 10%, she attempts to flee via another Gate, only to find it instantly dispelled by a Twelve archmage. She then fights to the death. At this point, if Nythaxtor is still alive, he flees.


Optionals:
Slay Nythaxator, Vilgratha's fiendish ally: This requires the party to kill the Pit Fiend before killing Vilgratha. Awards an extra chest with a chance at Devil Scales (small, medium and large).
Provoke Vilgratha into a murderous rage by slaying her young: This requires the party to kill Vilgratha's wyrmling outright at the beginning of the fight. If they do so, the entire fight is different (see below).
Slay Glattrack the Glabrezu: Only possible if the party provokes Vilgratha.


The foes:
Grathvinda, Wyrmling Green Dragon
15000/25000/35000/75000hp (n/h/e/epic) - for comparison, Shroud lieutenants have about 8k/14k/22k hp.
Attacks with claws, a bite, and a breath attack which is a cone of acid. Claws do 3d6+6/3d8+8/3d10+10/4d12+20 damage, 20/x2 crits. Bite does double that, and on a vorpal strike inflicts a debuff that grants a -25/25/50/50% penalty to fortification for 6 seconds. (It is intended that players will have no trouble surviving critical hits in this encounter). Attack speed: One full chain (claw, claw, bite) per 2 seconds (this is a faster attack rate than most bosses in DDO).

His breath deals 10d6/15d6/20d6/45d6 initial acid damage (Reflex DC 24/27/30/36 for half). After the breath, a cloud of acid forms in the area that the breath targeted, and stays there for 12 seconds. Anyone standing in this cloud takes 4d6/6d6/8d6/18d6 acid damage per two seconds, no save. (It is intended that players move out of this, but in the wyrmling fight, it's not likely to cause player death if they do not. In the adult dragon fight, however, it probably will).

Before he breathes acid, the dragon whelp will 'wind up' for two seconds. During this time, he will not attack, and will do nothing but move and turn to face (and keep facing) his current threat target. After the breath, it's another 1.5 seconds until he can attack again. Edit for clarification - the breath will hit its main target no matter where they move to during this time.

It's intended that this encounter is no tougher than fighting two of the Shroud lieutenants at once - and it serves the purpose of showing what these green dragons can do in a more forgiving way than the next battle.

Spellcasting: None, he's just a wyrmling.

Aggro patterns: He focuses all his attacks on the foe he perceives as most threatening (highest threat), anyone else they hit is a bonus. Completely controllable aggro.


Vilgratha, Green Dragon:
HP: 120000/200000/300000/550000 (for comparison, Suulomades in VOD has 150k/250k/350k)
Attacks with two claws, a bite, a wing buffet, a breath weapon, and spells.

Melee attacks:
Claws: Attack at +52/+58/+64/+77 for 6d6+8/6d8+10/6d12+14/8d12+20 damage per swing.
Bite: Attacks at +62/+68/+74/+87 for 10d6+12/10d8+15/10d12+21/20d12+30 damage.
Attack speed: 2 claws and one bite per 1.8 seconds. (This is very, very fast in DDO)
Wing buffet: Attacks all foes in melee range of the dragon, except those in front of her (those that are being hit by both claws and the bite). Attacks at the same attack bonus as the claws. Deals 10d6/10d8/10d12/20d12 damage, and those that fail a Strength check (DC 20/22/25/30) are thrown across the room. This ability is on a 20 second cooldown, and replaces an entire attack chain.
Claw attacks are 20/x3 crit. Bite attacks are 19-20/x2.
On a vorpal strike, her bite attack procs the same debuff as her young. (If the tank suffers this debuff, it is intended that they 'turtle up', or that another tank is ready to Intimidate Vilgratha and be the main aggro target for the duration of the debuff. Even on Epic, tanks that turtle should be able to survive critical hits).

Defenses:
Immune to acid.
Standard purple-named immunities.
AC: 42/51/60/76. On Epic, the party had better work together to debuff her if they want to beat her down with melee attacks. Destruction, Sundering Ooze, Improved Destruction, Waves of Exhaustion and Strength Sapping all lower this.
SR: 25/28/32/37 - far from insurmountable, but enough to be a pain.
Saves: Fortitude high, Reflex low, Will mid-range
DR: Bypassed only by Epic weapons. 3/5/7/10 on n/h/e/ep.
Fortification: 25% on all difficulties.

Breath attack:
Vilgratha's breath is the same as her juvenile's breath, but much more damaging. It deals five times as much initial damage, and five times as much damage over time, as the juvenile's breath. Save DC is 11 higher than the juvenile's DC. On Normal through Elite, this is easily survived - on Epic, it deals 225d6 initial damage (average just under 800), which is likely to be lethal to a tank that fails their save, unless they are wearing an acid absorption item (it's intended that, in the two second windup, they switch to one, much as a small number of players do when fighting epic Velah).
Like the whelp, the main target of this breath attack cannot avoid the breath by moving (although by moving, they can ensure that they are the only person hit by it, and that the damage-over-time cloud doesn't fall in an area where you don't want it.

Spellcasting:
Vilgratha will cast the following spells:
Chain Missiles, Firewall, Chain Lightning, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Symbol of Pain, Greater Dispelling.
On Hard only, add Waves of Fatigue.
On Elite and Epic, add Waves of Exhaustion.
On Epic only, add Trap the Soul and Horrid Wilting.
Spells are maximized and Heightened on all difficulties, and empowered and quickened on Elite and Epic.
Vigratha generally prefers melee over spellcasting, but will cast spells if she is aggroed on someone that is out of melee range, or occasionally when in melee. If she misses four melee attacks in a row on her main aggro target, she will dispel them, then throw a Firewall or Ice Storm under them, then (Epic only) cast Trap the Soul on them, then she will return to melee.
Save DCs: 32 normal, 37 hard, 42 elite, 48 epic. (Note: These are significantly higher than other raidboss spell DCs; this ensures that there is actually a benefit to wearing Resistance items and buffing saves)

Aggro patterns: Standard.

Overhead phase:
Upon hitting 40% and again at 20%, Vilgratha disengages from melee and flies overhead (out of range of melee attacks) and strafes the party, spamming her breath weapon. During this phase, her lingering acid breath does not disappear at all (until the phase ends). In addition, players cannot move through the acid breath clouds at all without Freedom of Movement, and even with FoM, they may only move as slowly as they can in Into the Deep's underwater parts. Initially she flies in a large square around where she first appeared, then she flies over this square time and time again, constricting the movements of players more and more.

This phase ends when she has taken damage equal to 6% of her maximum health. If players run out of space before that happens, they all die horribly. Once the phase ends, Vilgratha returns to the ground, all of the lingering acid clouds dissipate, and Vilgratha's aggro is wiped.

The second time this phase occurs, she also summons a group of quite nasty trash mobs - Devils if Glattrack has not been engaged, three Hezrous and a Marilith if he has. Also, this phase only triggers the first time her HP falls under the relevant thresholds - if she gains enough HP to put her over 40% again, she does not go airborne upon falling back under 40%.


Nythaxtor:
Nythaxtor is summoned by Vilgratha when she reaches 50% hp. Edit for clarification: If players cause Glattrack to spawn, Nythaxtor will not be encountered - if Vilgratha hits 50% while Glattrack is active, Glattrack will instantly slay Nythaxtor (the party does not recieve credit for this); if Glattrack has been slain, Nythaxtor will not answer the summons.
HP: 70000/85000/120000/175000
Melee attacks: Deals about two thirds as much damage as Arraetrikos on the same difficulty level (on Epic, deals as much damage as elite Arraetrikos). Same attack bonuses as Harry. However, all attacks are 19-20/x4 crits (x5 on Epic). In addition, his melee claw attacks hit a full 360 degree radius, unlike Arraetrikos' attacks which hit about a 270 degree radius.
Spellcasting: Casts Mass Hold Monster, Delayed Blast Fireball, Slow, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleet Storm and Horrid Wilting. Has only Empower Spell, and as such isn't too deadly, but the spells will be annoying.
Aggro pattern: Standard.

Nythaxtor's main role in the fight is to get in the way and cause trouble. While he's not too deadly himself (even on Epic), his attacks can be easily rip apart a player that's also being attacked by the dragon. In particular, his melee attacks can quickly kill someone that has the fortification debuff from Vilgratha's bite. Plus, his debuffs are problematic.

The intention of this encounter is that the players must keep these two opponents apart during the part in which they are both alive. If the two of them are both attacking the same player, that player is probably going to die horribly (just as happens when Horoth and Suulomades both belt up the same person).



Glattrack

If Vilgratha arrives and discovers her progeny slain, her wrath will know no bounds. She will conjure the soul gem of Glattrack, and offer the demon a bargain - the demon's freedom in exhange for revenge. From inside the gem, a voice states 'The price for your wish is a soul', to which Vilgratha repsonds 'Agreed, you can have your own soul back'. The gem shatters, and Glattrack appears. Glattrack then turns to Vilgratha, and states 'Wish granted' - and Vilgratha gains the Fiendish template.

Vilgratha's fiendish transformation makes her skin look like Horoth's (except black and green, not black and red). In this state, she gains +10 to Strength, and the benefits of the Haste, Greater Heroism and Superior Efficacy 9 buffs. All of these can be dispelled (caster level 16/18/20/22), but are reapplied every 30 seconds if they are. In addition, as long as Glattrack remains, she regenerates 200/300/400/1000 hp per second.

When Vilgratha falls to 50% hp, she casts a Gate and summons Nythaxtor, only to have Glattrack utter a Word of Chaos and slay the devil instantly. (Players do not recieve credit for Nythaxtor being killed in this way).

As long as Glattrack remains, Vilgratha cannot be slain. She will stay alive at 1hp, like Shroud lieutenants. Upon her hitting 1hp, Glattrack will taunt the players.

Glattrack
HP 120000/150000/200000/275000

Glattrack attacks the party himself as well, teleporting around like a bearded devil, and attacking his primary target with four pincer attacks (all +55/65/75/88 attack bonus, 12d6+20/12d8+24/12d12+28/16d12+40). He does not cast spells in combat. Like the Jailer in ToD, he has standard aggro patterns but will often teleport behind his main target. His four-swing attack chain takes 2.4 seconds to complete.

When Glattrack falls under 50% hp, he gains +6 to strength for the rest of the battle.

When he falls under 3% hp, he states 'Dragon, I abandon you to your fate' and attempts to flee - only to be prevented from fleeing by a Twelve archmage. He dies saying a cryptic 'And so the betrayer is betrayed.'


Rewards:
See next posts for raid loot items, and what you can make out of green dragon scales.

Regular loot:
Normal - 1 level 15 chest, 1 level 16 golden chest with a chance at raid loot. If Glattrack was killed, the golden chest appears tarnished and covered in blood. If Nythaxtor was slain, an additional level 16 chest appears. This additional chest is red and has small horns.
Hard - 3 level 18 chests, 1 level 20 golden chest, potentially the same optional chests as above. Nythaxtor's chest is also level 16.
Elite - 4 level 21 chests, 1 level 23 golden chest, possibly optional chests (all level 23)
Epic - 5 level 23 chests, 1 level 23 epic chest with 1 Epic Raid Token, 1 level 23 epic Nythaxtor chest with another Epic Raid Token, 1 level 23 epic Glattrack chest with another Epic Raid Token.

In addition:

Vilgratha chest (Glattrack not engaged):
Three different qualities of Green Dragon Scales are found here:
Normal: 100% chance of Cracked Green Dragon Scale
Hard: 20% chance of Green Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Cracked Green Dragon Scale
Elite: 50% chance of Green Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Cracked Green Dragon Scale
Epic: 20% chance of Flawless Green Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Green Dragon Scale

Fiendish Vilgratha chest (Glattrack engaged and slain):
Green dragon scales found here are infused with demonic power.
Normal: 100% chance of Tainted Green Dragon Scale
Hard: 20% chance of Corrupted Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Tainted Green Dragon Scale
Elite: 50% chance of Corrupted Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Tainted Green Dragon Scale
Epic: 20% chance of Infernal Green Dragon Scale, otherwise a guaranteed Corrupted Green Dragon Scale

Nythaxtor's chest:
Normal: 10% chance at Small Devil Scale, 10% Medium Devil Scale, 10% Large Devil Scale
Hard: 25% small, 25% medium, 25% large
Elite: 20% small, 40% medium, 40% large
Epic: 100% chance of 1d2 large devil scales
All difficulties: 4% chance of Devil's Keepsake

Glattrack's chest:
Raid loot (see later posts)
4% chance of Demon's Blood

XP:
Base XP of 8000/12000/18000 for normal/hard/elite (if in future Epic is changed to allow non-20s in, Epic should award ~30000 XP)
Award for slaying Nythaxtor: 60% of base
Award for actually killing Grathvinda (and thus activating the Glattrack encounter): 10% of base
Award for slaying Glattrack: 90% of base

Note that for those capable of beating this raid on this higher difficulties, it's quite a lucrative source of XP. However, it can't be farmed (due to the raid lockout timer). As such, it adds variety while levelling TRs, which can only be a positive thing.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 04:53 AM
Loot ideas:

The intention here is that you can quite easily get an item from this raid that is solid, but not quite endgame quality. Players can then run the raid on higher difficulties to upgrade their item, but getting the 'perfect' final version is neither quick or easy. For dragonscales, different qualities of scales drop on different difficulties. For other items, getting an item from Tier 1 to Tier 2 should require about 20 Hard completions or 5 Elite completions. Getting it from Tier 2 to the epic Tier 3 version requires around 20 epic completions.


Green Dragon Armors
Three tiers of each of these armors exist. The bottom tier requires 25 cracked green dragon scales, which determined players should reach very quickly due to the 100% drop rate. The second tier requires 25 green dragon scales, and the third tier requires 25 flawless green dragon scales, which should be very challenging to collect. The barter box will also offer a melee-DPS oriented Green Dragonscale Breastplate, a healer-oriented Green Dragonscale Hauberk (also a breastplate), and a Green Dragonscale Robe tailored for enchantment-specced arcanes. Builds that don't want to use any of these might find the armor for them in the demonic versions.
Docent versions of all of them are also available.

Cracked Green Dragonplate Carapace
Cost: 25 cracked green dragon scales
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 10
Enhanced max Dex - +3
+5
Acid Absorption: 10%
DR 5/-
Lesser Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Touch ability (dealing 1 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Incite +20%

Green Dragonplate Carapace
Cost: 25 green dragon scales OR 20 green dragon scales plus 1 Cracked Green Dragonplate Carapace
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 10
Enhanced max Dex - +4
+5
Acid Absorption: 20%
DR 5/-
Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Incite +20%
Superior False Life

Epic Green Dragonplate Carapace
Cost: 25 flawless green dragon scales OR 20 flawless green dragon scales plus 1 Cracked Green Dragonplate Carapace
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 11
Enhanced max Dex - +4
+6
Acid Absorption: 20%
DR 7/-
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit and even more on a critical hit).
Incite +30%
Epic False Life (+50 hp)
Blue Augment Slot
Green Augment Slot

Cracked Green Dragonscale Hauberk
Cost: 25 cracked green dragon scales
Breastplate
+5
Acid Absorption: 10%
DR 5/-
Concentration +15
Greater Devotion 8
Greater Healing Lore
Healing Mastery 2: Your Healing spells cost 2 less SP to cast

(Similar, but better, versions exist for Tier 2 and 3)

Next the demonic versions, of which I'll only give one example (leather armor intended for melees that prioritise DPS over durability - rogues in particular, but many classes and builds can use these)

Tainted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 tainted green dragon scales
Leather armor
+5
Acid Absorption: 20%
Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Melee alacrity +10% (does not stack with Haste)
Ranged alacrity +10%
Sneak Attack +3

Corrupted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 corrupted green dragon scales OR 20 corrupted green dragon scales AND 1 Tainted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Leather armor
+5
Acid Absorption: 20%
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit plus more on a critical).
Melee alacrity +12% (does not stack with Haste)
Ranged alacrity +12%
Sneak Attack +5
Double strike chance: +2%

Epic Infernal Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 infernal green dragon scales OR 20 infernal green dragon scales AND 1 Corrupted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Leather armor
+7
Acid Absorbtion: 20%
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit plus more on a critical).
Supreme Alacrity: The wearer of this armor is under a permanent Haste effect, granting +32% movement speed and +15% melee and ranged attack speed, as well as a +1 bonus to Reflex saves, attack rolls and AC.
Sneak Attack +6 (+9 damage)
Double strike chance: +4%



Vilgratha's Chest (incomplete list of items):

Glattrack's Bane
Greatsword
Piercing and slashing
+3
Holy
Cold Iron
Augmented base damage - deals 3d6 base damage
Augmented critical - crits 19-20/x3
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add Maiming; +5; and the ability to bypass DR/epic
- Tier 3: Add +6; Trap the Soul (as on Epic Souleater); Red Augment Slot; Orange Augment Slot; Augmented Base Damage - 4d8; and "Epic Destruction: On a vorpal strike, the weapon inflicts a 50% fortification penalty on the foe struck for 15 seconds"
A fang of the great dragon Vilgratha, removed and turned into a huge blade. Its unusual manufacture allows it to be used to stab as well as to slash.


Lifegiver's Helm
Helmet
Wizardry 7
Major Healing Lore
Minor Devotion 9
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add Archmagi (replacing Wizardy 7); Shroud Exceptional 100SP; and Devotion 9 (replacing Minor Devotion 9)
- Tier 3: Add Shroud Exceptional 50SP; "Healing Mastery 3: Your Healing spells cost 3 less SP to cast"; Wizardry 10 (replacing Archmagi); and Radiant Surge Guard (as the Mabar wraps proc, 2% proc rate)


Fullplate of the Dragon Warden Note - this is not green dragon scale armor, and is designed (cosmetically) more like dragontouched.
Fullplate (base AC +10, max dex +2)
+4
Greater Acid Resistance
Earthgrab Guard
Heavy Fortification
Healing Amplification: 10%
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add +5; Superior Acid Resistance; Greater False Life and remove lesser versions of these effects.
- Tier 3: Add +6; increase Max Dex to +4; add a blue slot and a green slot; remove Healing Amp 10%; add Healing Amp 40%; add "Supreme Fortification: This item grants a 150% bonus to fortification, granting total immunity to additional damage on critical hits even while subject to some effects that reduce fortification."


Docent of Earth
+5
Reinforced Plating: +1
Moderate Fortification
Earthen Guard (note - this is the Stoneskin proc, not the Earthgrab proc with a similar name)
Greater Acid Resistance
Protection +5
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add Reinforced Plating +2; Superior Acid Resistance; Greater False Life and remove lesser versions of these effects.
- Tier 3: Add +6; add a blue slot and a green slot; add Repair Amp 30%.


Nythaxtor's Chest:


Circlet of Domination
Helmet
Command
Enchantment Focus
Clicky - Symbol of Persuasion 3/rest, caster level 16, save DC increased to 28
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add Greater Enchantment Focus. Symbol clickie DC improves to 33.
- Tier 3: Add Epic Enchantment Focus (+3 DC). Add a blue and a colorless slot.

Sword of the Custodian
Bastard Sword
Alignment Required: Lawful Neutral (UMD 30 to bypass)
+4
Axiomatic
Holy
Unholy
Cold Iron
Augmented base damage: 2d8
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add +5. Add Concordant Opposition.
- Tier 3: Add +7; Replace Holy, Unholy and Axiomatic with their Burst versions. Add Augmented Critical: 17-20/x2.


Glattrack's Chest:

Razor Handwraps
Handwraps
+3
Metalline
Vicious
Savage Cut: On a vorpal strike, an attack with these wraps deals an additional 12d6 slashing damage to the target and an additional 6d3 to the wielder.
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add +5; Impact; Seeker 6 and the ability to bypass DR/epic.
- Tier 3: Add +8; Seeker 10, and improve Savage Cut to deal 30d6 damage on a vorpal (retributive damage increases as well, to 10d3).
These cruel wraps are a favorite among duelling demons, who celebrate the pain they suffer almost as much as the pain they inflict.


Stormblade
Shortsword
+3
Anarchic Burst
Lightning Strike
Augmented Base Damage - 2d8
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add +4; Shocking Burst and Augmented Critical - 18-20/x2
- Tier 3: Add +6; add a red slot and a violet slot; add Augmented Critical - 17-20/x2; add Lightning Storm Guard.

The chaos of a thunderstorm, contained in a single blade.


Shroud of Annihilation
Cloak
Disintegration Guard
Tier 1: This item can be upgraded.

- Tier 2: Add Corrosive Salt Guard
- Tier 3: Add a yellow slot; add 'Annihilating Strike: The weapon in your main hand has a 1% chance to cause a terrible surge of power that disintegrates foes causing tremendous damage'. Other than the lower proc rate, this is the same as the Shroud weapon ability Disintegration.

TheDearLeader
09-13-2010, 05:10 AM
I... skimmed that.

1. Green Dragons = Good. I like this. Actually, Dragons = Good. We've got the Dungeons, as always, I'm clamoring for more Dragons.

2. Mobs taking away fortification = Not so good. Kinda scary. I like my fort.

3. Wide open area = Good. I'm kinda getting tired of narrow hallways and overhead hanging terrain randomly dramatically bringing my camera angle in/out. Not to mention if they tried to have a dragon in a confined space, I'd call B.S.

4. Dragon, Demon, Devil = Good. Dragons are magical by nature, and should be able to call upon a variety of planar allies.

5. Trap the Soul, Sleet Storm = Bad. Sleet Storm because there's just no fun to a raid ending because half of the group's in a blinding white snowcloud, unable to act. While Mass Hold will already necessitate the buffing of Freedom of Movement.. just... no. Substitute Trap the Soul for Finger of Death - if someone in the party cannot identify that they do not have Death Ward/Deathblock, it should hurt.

6. Loot = Good. I like the idea of incorporating current crafting schemes such as Devil Scales. Also, adding new Dragon Scales sounds lovely, and appropriate.

7. Question - Adult Green Dragon.. I didn't pull out my books to look, but would this age category be capable of dishing out the mass amount of physical damage/spells you've got listed? Also, would there be an Overrun DC?

8. Suggestion - Lose the lingering acid cloud effect. This is not common of most breath weapons, and certainly a Wyrmling would possess no such ability. Ever for the boss dragon, it seems unlikely and unnecessary, given the other combat abilities available.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 05:15 AM
I... skimmed that.


7. Question - Adult Green Dragon.. I didn't pull out my books to look, but would this age category be capable of dishing out the mass amount of physical damage/spells you've got listed? Also, would there be an Overrun DC?

8. Suggestion - Lose the lingering acid cloud effect. This is not common of most breath weapons, and certainly a Wyrmling would possess no such ability. Ever for the boss dragon, it seems unlikely and unnecessary, given the other combat abilities available.

7 - In pen and paper, no it would not. But in pen and paper, Suulomades wouldn't have 350000 hp either, nor would Horoth be able to cast Maximized Empowered Disintegrate (an 11th level spell). And players certainly would not have +5 holy shocking burst shocking blast lightning strike 2d8 base damage 19-20/x3 khopeshes in each hand.

8 - There's a feat, Lingering Breath, that this is loosely based off. It's intended to force players to move during the encounter - no more 'position the boss in a corner and wail on them' like players do with Horoth and Suulomades.
The little tacker only has it to warn players of what to expect later (if they choose to pay attention). The idea came from a suggestion in the 'A New Invasion Elite' thread recently (should be in hte Dev tracker).

Dingdongtudelu
09-13-2010, 06:40 AM
Fantastic. As a forgotten realms fan, I've always thought it was a pity there were no more intelligent dragons around. The dragons you see here can hit, and cast an elemental breath. They can all speak common, so why not allow some to practice the arcane arts? I remember fights where dragons would have contingency fire off, go invisible, have stoneskin and spell mantles up, and start summoning allies, on top of the usual wingbuffeting and breathing. Those were the challenging fights! It'd also give arcanes something more to do than the usual hasting.

I would prefer to have a little more demand for caster activities in your raid though, to allow more than the usual 2 arcanes to enter the raid party. Perhaps the forest's creatures could be dominated to help you in the fight against the dragon/demons. Perhaps the powerful demons could summon lesser demons, that would not have deathward (which seems to be a common tactic to add arcanes demand to a quest)....

Great idea though, very well thought out!

ArloOne
09-13-2010, 07:28 AM
/signed

Cool story bro'

I really like the idea. The effort you put into it is appreciated. Sounds to me like it could open a lot of story lines for the 12 and get us some much needed high end content.

Thanks for the work!!!

FluffyCalico
09-13-2010, 07:35 AM
2 things

1) If we are fighting dragons make sure they are colored dragons and not metallic dragons.

2) Make sure Not all the bosses DR are beaten by min 2. As its getting way beyond stupid to craft min2 min2 min2 min2 min2 . We need a NEW raid where there is DR that is beatable by something from the shroud but NOT by min2.

Ashiel_Dragmire
09-13-2010, 07:37 AM
/signed

Yes please! It sounds like Mired in Kobolds, only better since it's a raid! I want mah dragons!

Bacab
09-13-2010, 07:38 AM
I like it a lot.

Though what about it having to do with Argo favor instead since they deal with Dragons more?

Also this could open up a way to get more Argo favor (maybe more HP feat)

sweez
09-13-2010, 08:27 AM
Deals 10d6/10d8/10d12/20d12 damage, and those that fail a Strength check (DC 20/22/25/30) are thrown across the room.

A room, eh? Aren't we fighting in an open space? :P


If Vilgratha arrives and discovers her progeny slain, her wrath will know no bounds.

Haha nice, that's from Mired in Kobolds, right?


(This second member of the Twelve is an agent of the demons, and has made a bargain with Glattrack to free him)

More stuff that makes the 12 look like incompetent old farts? Overkill. :P

Garth_of_Sarlona
09-13-2010, 09:00 AM
Sounds like fun. But you can't have the dragon casting trap the soul on epic, because eventually players will roll a 1, and dying in the raid when there is nothing you can do about it is not fun.

At least have some kind of item you can loot (like boots of anchoring) that prevents the spell - alternatively have an area on the map or a space like 'the soul guard crystal that the Twelve have placed' where you can stand that prevents trap the soul from being cast, and then have a visible windup to the spell being cast ('everyone run to the soul guard crystal!!!')

Garth

sirgog
09-13-2010, 09:14 AM
2 things

1) If we are fighting dragons make sure they are colored dragons and not metallic dragons.

2) Make sure Not all the bosses DR are beaten by min 2. As its getting way beyond stupid to craft min2 min2 min2 min2 min2 . We need a NEW raid where there is DR that is beatable by something from the shroud but NOT by min2.

1) It's Eberron - metallic dragons can be evil. IMO the classic five chromatics should all be done first, but metallics should be on the table too.

2) I didn't mention DR here, but IMO they should be:

Dragons: None (n/h), 5/epic (elite), 10/epic (epic)
Devil: 10/holy or silver (n/h), 10/holy and (silver or epic) (elite), 10/holy and silver and epic (epic)
Demon: 10/holy or cold iron (n/h), 10/holy and (cold iron or epic) (elite), 10/holy and epic and cold iron (epic)

Lower than usual DR numbers make a wider variety of weapons appropriate. Whereas on Arraetrikos only Mineral 2 and Lightning 2 Shroud weapons are worth using, on these bosses, you could use Mineral 2, Lightning 2 (not so good on the Glabrezu), Incineration (dragons only), triple positive, Radiance (dragons only), Steam (dragons only), Crushing Wave, or pretty much any Epic weapon. DR 5/epic on Elite makes using some of the mediocre epic weapons (like Flint) as good as using Greensteels.

Fomori
09-13-2010, 09:31 AM
Green Dragons are supposed to have Chlorine Gas as their breath weapon. Thus the lingering cloud effect does make sense. Also it should have a severe poison element to it, since chlorine gas is lethal. Granted the players should be prepping for that to negate its effects but if the draggie is dispelling, and you only are using a spell for poison protection, you better hope you are not in the cloud when that happens.

I think the storyline for this quest that you came up with is awesome. It has a true DnD feel to it.

SINIBYTE
09-13-2010, 09:38 AM
Bored with the lack of entertaining forum drama and info on future content, so I thought I'd come up with an idea for a new raid.


Stirring the Hornets' Nest

Raid

"How can you beat underwater combat?"

Answer: Hire this guy.

SINIBYTE
09-13-2010, 09:39 AM
Green Dragons are supposed to have Chlorine Gas as their breath weapon. Thus the lingering cloud effect does make sense. Also it should have a severe poison element to it, since chlorine gas is lethal. Granted the players should be prepping for that to negate its effects but if the draggie is dispelling, and you only are using a spell for poison protection, you better hope you are not in the cloud when that happens.

I think the storyline for this quest that you came up with is awesome. It has a true DnD feel to it.

If Turbine decided this was a good idea, they'd instantly have us farming materials to craft a gasmask, of which the mats are a 1% drop rate in annoying quests that noone like to do.

Bodic
09-13-2010, 09:45 AM
In Truth we need something of a Wish spell nature. IMHO.

Ashiel_Dragmire
09-13-2010, 10:00 AM
If Turbine decided this was a good idea, they'd instantly have us farming materials to craft a gasmask, of which the mats are a 1% drop rate in annoying quests that noone like to do.

Or more people would roll Warforged.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 10:09 AM
If Turbine decided this was a good idea, they'd instantly have us farming materials to craft a gasmask, of which the mats are a 1% drop rate in annoying quests that noone like to do.

Rofl! (by the way, the drop rate is 9% in the flagging quests, not 1%).

Poison is too easy to become totally immune to, IMO, to bother with it in a new raid - plus it's a mechanic that would push groups to refuse to start without a warforged tank. WF tanks are clearly the best at quite a few raids now (Suulomades in VoD and ToD, the Judge in ToD if the group bothers with a threat tank, and anywhere that the Docent of Defiance rules). I don't want another encounter where players feel gimped because they have a human paladin or dwarf barbarian.

MarkusWolfe
09-13-2010, 10:37 AM
/signed

sirgog
09-13-2010, 01:13 PM
Editted the second post to add in item suggestions.

TheDearLeader
09-13-2010, 01:40 PM
7 - In pen and paper, no it would not. But in pen and paper, Suulomades wouldn't have 350000 hp either, nor would Horoth be able to cast Maximized Empowered Disintegrate (an 11th level spell). And players certainly would not have +5 holy shocking burst shocking blast lightning strike 2d8 base damage 19-20/x3 khopeshes in each hand.

8 - There's a feat, Lingering Breath, that this is loosely based off. It's intended to force players to move during the encounter - no more 'position the boss in a corner and wail on them' like players do with Horoth and Suulomades.
The little tacker only has it to warn players of what to expect later (if they choose to pay attention). The idea came from a suggestion in the 'A New Invasion Elite' thread recently (should be in hte Dev tracker).

Increased HP is a response to our ability to produce more DPS than pnp, yes. Having them hit somewhat harder is a response to us possessing more HP, yes.
Horoth is actually a fairly high CR Devil - Maximized Empowered Disintegrate, I could buy. I'm just saying lets balance what would be a challenge in this encounter, or what may be overkill.

And yes, I read the New Invasion thread, contributed to it I believe. I thought there might be that Lingering Breath feat - I could recall having read it in Dragon Magic/Draconomicon/Whichever book. I'm still not sure its necessary in the raid at all, given the other slew of attacks that can be produced by the creatures you've presented.


2 things

1) If we are fighting dragons make sure they are colored dragons and not metallic dragons.

2) Make sure Not all the bosses DR are beaten by min 2. As its getting way beyond stupid to craft min2 min2 min2 min2 min2 . We need a NEW raid where there is DR that is beatable by something from the shroud but NOT by min2.


1) It's Eberron - metallic dragons can be evil. IMO the classic five chromatics should all be done first, but metallics should be on the table too.

2) I didn't mention DR here, but IMO they should be:

Dragons: None (n/h), 5/epic (elite), 10/epic (epic)
Devil: 10/holy or silver (n/h), 10/holy and (silver or epic) (elite), 10/holy and silver and epic (epic)
Demon: 10/holy or cold iron (n/h), 10/holy and (cold iron or epic) (elite), 10/holy and epic and cold iron (epic)

Lower than usual DR numbers make a wider variety of weapons appropriate. Whereas on Arraetrikos only Mineral 2 and Lightning 2 Shroud weapons are worth using, on these bosses, you could use Mineral 2, Lightning 2 (not so good on the Glabrezu), Incineration (dragons only), triple positive, Radiance (dragons only), Steam (dragons only), Crushing Wave, or pretty much any Epic weapon. DR 5/epic on Elite makes using some of the mediocre epic weapons (like Flint) as good as using Greensteels.

Chromatics should be done before metallics, just to fall in line with the current dragon schemes we have.

Addressing Fluffy: As far as DR goes... you want a mob... who has an overcome-able DR... but is *not* overcome by Min II?

First of all, originally Min II was much more powerful. It had Lawful/Chaotic, and all three of Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce in addition to its current state, which overcomes DR based on....

(Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce, depending), Good, Evil, Silver, Adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, Magic, Byeshk.


So you're wanting to formulate a Dragon, Demon, or Devil, or all three, with a DR fancier than that? You're looking at requiring : Epic, Crystal, Chaotic, Lawful. And all but the first would be rather silly.

Min II is Min II because it is an (almost universal) DR buster. Stop hating.

Back @ Sirgog : DR #/Epic is more than Velah has. New raids, new dragon. And yes, Raid level 15 vs. Raid level 10. But I still wouldn't suggest giving them DR #/Epic, except *maybe* on Epic. Even then, giving a mob Epic-based DR is a bit.. something.

Still, lots in this idea that I like, and I think Turbine could easily replicate. Another question I thought of : the flagging quests. What level, how many quests, can we expect awesome TR XP? :)

biggin
09-13-2010, 01:49 PM
Since we are spitballing ideas here......

I love the wyrmling idea, and when you were comparing the HP to the Shroud Lts. it got me thinking......

What if they had one wyrmling each of the basic 5: red, black, green, blue, and white? I'm not a lore person, so I honestly don't know if this is so far off that it wouldn't be fun for the people "in the know". Maybe have named items associated with each, giving a much broader range of available items.

Great idea BTW, like I said, just got me thinking of a fun raid, wasn't trying to derail or take away from it by any means.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 06:37 PM
Since we are spitballing ideas here......

I love the wyrmling idea, and when you were comparing the HP to the Shroud Lts. it got me thinking......

What if they had one wyrmling each of the basic 5: red, black, green, blue, and white? I'm not a lore person, so I honestly don't know if this is so far off that it wouldn't be fun for the people "in the know". Maybe have named items associated with each, giving a much broader range of available items.

Great idea BTW, like I said, just got me thinking of a fun raid, wasn't trying to derail or take away from it by any means.

I don't see how that would happen, lore-wise.

Dragons seldom work together outside of family groupings in D&D (this is the reason that the dragons don't currently rule the world).

Velah and Cydonie, a red and a blue dragon work together, but this is a real exception.

khaldan
09-13-2010, 06:45 PM
It has fire(technically acid, but anything lingering like that is fire). I love this raid solely for that.

It the intent for the adult fight to be either: Drop the main dragon to 50, kill the demon, kill her; or Kill the demon, Drop the dragon to 50, Kill the devil, kill dragon? The first one might be a bit hard, what with the level of regen.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 07:01 PM
It has fire(technically acid, but anything lingering like that is fire). I love this raid solely for that. Have you played WoW as well, where anything 'bad' on the ground is called fire by players? Staying too long on a New Invasion tile in WoW would get other players to say to you 'get out of the fire!'.

It the intent for the adult fight to be either: Drop the main dragon to 50, kill the demon, kill her; or Kill the demon, Drop the dragon to 50, Kill the devil, kill dragon? The first one might be a bit hard, what with the level of regen.


Heh, it didn't even cross my mind that it was possible to fight both the demon and devil (of course, the way I've written it up, it is). I like this mistake on my behalf as it adds several different options to the fight, although it's entirely possible that Nythaxtor would come through the Gate, see that Vilgratha had allied herself with a (now dead) Demon, and was his hands of her. Devils hate demons as much as they hate paladins.

khaldan
09-13-2010, 07:07 PM
Heh, it didn't even cross my mind that it was possible to fight both the demon and devil (of course, the way I've written it up, it is). I like this mistake on my behalf as it adds several different options to the fight, although it's entirely possible that Nythaxtor would come through the Gate, see that Vilgratha had allied herself with a (now dead) Demon, and was his hands of her. Devils hate demons as much as they hate paladins.

Maybe have the Devil also give a healing buff, but go after the dragon until he's at X percent, then go after the party? The dragon would be unkillable until he dies, so no real worry of a weapon shipment type thing, while still giving a reason for the devil to do all that he does.

And yes, I played WoW for about a year. Raid bosses with fire were fun, so I've been trying to come up with a DDO version Mimiron hardmode. Fire Everywhere!

sirgog
09-13-2010, 07:14 PM
Maybe have the Devil also give a healing buff, but go after the dragon until he's at X percent, then go after the party? The dragon would be unkillable until he dies, so no real worry of a weapon shipment type thing, while still giving a reason for the devil to do all that he does.

And yes, I played WoW for about a year. Raid bosses with fire were fun, so I've been trying to come up with a DDO version Mimiron hardmode. Fire Everywhere!

For anyone that doesn't know what Khaldan's talking about - Mimiron hardmode from WoW (video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jee971qfSMQ ) is probably one of the most brutal raid encounters ever made in any game.

As for what a similar thing would be like in DDO - imagine A New Invasion, scaled up to allow a raid party, then add in Shadowfiends. :eek:. Even the sadistic psychopath in me shudders at the thought.

stormarcher
09-13-2010, 07:30 PM
/super Signed

khaldan
09-13-2010, 07:34 PM
For anyone that doesn't know what Khaldan's talking about - Mimiron hardmode from WoW (video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jee971qfSMQ ) is probably one of the most brutal raid encounters ever made in any game.

As for what a similar thing would be like in DDO - imagine A New Invasion, scaled up to allow a raid party, then add in Shadowfiends. :eek:. Even the sadistic psychopath in me shudders at the thought.

You'd have to enlarge the room a few times to give room to kite, but basically. That and there's also shadowfiends that spawn randomly around the room, stand in place for 10 seconds, and explode. And there's fire. So, so much fire.

DrunkenBuddha
09-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Wow, truly impressed. Excellent storyline. Well thought out and planned. +1 to you sirgog

ColinQ
09-13-2010, 07:49 PM
Acid breath have potential to be instant death regardless of gear (225xd6 = 1350 dmg potential means 1000+ dmg with absorption crafted TOD ring + resis + protection.)

When we did the EVON6 speed run we had firestorm greave + fire shield pots + TOD ring with fire absorption + tons of HP to survive her breath ONCE (4 charge of mantle to absorbed one round of her fire amp debuff)
Lack of acidstorm greaves and acid shield makes this rather impossible



Poison is too easy to become totally immune to, IMO, to bother with it in a new raid - plus it's a mechanic that would push groups to refuse to start without a warforged tank. WF tanks are clearly the best at quite a few raids now (Suulomades in VoD and ToD, the Judge in ToD if the group bothers with a threat tank, and anywhere that the Docent of Defiance rules). I don't want another encounter where players feel gimped because they have a human paladin or dwarf barbarian.

At current design, a WF tank with heavy fort + med guild argumentation crystal would retain 90% crit immue, which give significant advantage to all those WF barb threat tanks as a substitute for the grind out gear.
I can see most group would toss a Halfling sacrifice to the dragon while going after the devils and then use the WF barb threat tank with a pure cleric for good measure

“epic xxx, need WF barb with 45 guild level, Halfling kiter and cleric with capstone”

khaldan
09-13-2010, 07:53 PM
Possibly intim the dragon off when she's about to breathe, then run like hell outside the breath range? Would require 2 intimitanks, but it's supposed to be a hard epic raid, so some group stacking should be expected.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 08:06 PM
Acid breath have potential to be instant death regardless of gear (225xd6 = 1350 dmg potential means 1000+ dmg with absorption crafted TOD ring + resis + protection.)

When we did the EVON6 speed run we had firestorm greave + fire shield pots + TOD ring with fire absorption + tons of HP to survive her breath ONCE (4 charge of mantle to absorbed one round of her fire amp debuff)
Lack of acidstorm greaves and acid shield makes this rather impossible

The average damage is 778.5, and will almot never exceed 900. Easily survived by a raging barbarian that's using a TOD acid absorb ring and a fresh Protection from Energy. Other classes might need to craft a triple acid absorption Shroud weapon (you have enough warning to switch to it when the breath comes).

The people I've seen 'tank' Velah's epic breath have used Glacial Bracers to get Fireshield, worn Greaves, then equipped a triple fire absorb Shroud weapon during the breath and kept swinging.





At current design, a WF tank with heavy fort + med guild argumentation crystal would retain 90% crit immue, which give significant advantage to all those WF barb threat tanks as a substitute for the grind out gear.
I can see most group would toss a Halfling sacrifice to the dragon while going after the devils and then use the WF barb threat tank with a pure cleric for good measure

“epic xxx, need WF barb with 45 guild level, Halfling kiter and cleric with capstone”

That's a problem I hadn't thought of, although the intention is that you can heal through any crits suffered by the tank even on Epic (if the clerics are paying CLOSE attention).

ColinQ
09-13-2010, 08:44 PM
The average damage is 778.5, and will almot never exceed 900. Easily survived by a raging barbarian that's using a TOD acid absorb ring and a fresh Protection from Energy. Other classes might need to craft a triple acid absorption Shroud weapon (you have enough warning to switch to it when the breath comes).
Is the breath suppose to be avoidable in any way?
If yes then what is stopping a FvS from soloing this by kiting thru BB and fly away from acid breath? (no evasion on any boss)

Suggestion: on elite/epic, when the dragon fly up, it drop acid amp debuff centered at whoever have agro, so rest of the party have time to run away while tank change gear
Potential for casters/cleric to get rid of the debuff remove enchantment if the group opt to stay in thru the blades..i mean breath


The people I've seen 'tank' Velah's epic breath have used Glacial Bracers to get Fireshield, worn Greaves, then equipped a triple fire absorb Shroud weapon during the breath and kept swinging.
Slightly different circumstances, our FvS + bards was swing at Velah with rest of the group too, most of the heal was done via qkn/emp/emp heal/max mass cures rather than mass heal. hence most dps opted for the HOX breacer and drink pots for fireshield
And notice those options are not available vs acid


That's a problem I hadn't thought of, although the intention is that you can heal through any crits suffered by the tank even on Epic (if the clerics are paying CLOSE attention).
Cleric is suppose to pay attention? I just turn on my radiant aura and afk while standing next to the melee

khaldan
09-13-2010, 08:50 PM
Is the breath suppose to be avoidable in any way?
If yes then what is stopping a FvS from soloing this by kiting thru BB and fly away from acid breath? (no evasion on any boss)


Hope you can make the trap the soul save every time while kiting.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 08:52 PM
Is the breath suppose to be avoidable in any way?
If yes then what is stopping a FvS from soloing this by kiting thru BB and fly away from acid breath? (no evasion on any boss)


It's not intended to be avoidable in the way that Velah's breath is.

FluffyCalico
09-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Addressing Fluffy: As far as DR goes... you want a mob... who has an overcome-able DR... but is *not* overcome by Min II?

First of all, originally Min II was much more powerful. It had Lawful/Chaotic, and all three of Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce in addition to its current state, which overcomes DR based on....

(Slash/Bludgeon/Pierce, depending), Good, Evil, Silver, Adamantine, Mithral, Cold Iron, Magic, Byeshk.


:)

1) I was here when it was transmutting
2) I have crafted tons of min2 and am sick of crafting them
3) You could easliy have something that requires fire or cold or sonic to break DR. Just as you USED to need fire or acid to kill a scrag. Or even have a boss that is immune to acid but takes double damage from something else. Or who is healed by acid and has no DR making many many other things better than min2. There are 1000s of ways to get a Boss who min2 is not a great item for.

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 09:08 PM
with all these being discussed, ie tod rings, shroud gear.... and the raid level is 15/18/21/epic?

ColinQ
09-13-2010, 09:10 PM
with all these being discussed, ie tod rings, shroud gear.... and the raid level is 15?
The discussion with those gear was aimed at surviving the 255d6 acid breath on epic
assuming alot more forgiving on normal/hard

khaldan
09-13-2010, 09:21 PM
50d6 and 75d6 on normal and hard, respectively. You'll need more than 350ish HP, but at 15 or so that's fairly easy.

ColinQ
09-13-2010, 09:22 PM
Just had the strangest thought gone thru my head

we just need to wait till Druid come out, then the druid can threat tank the dragon and wildshape into chlorine elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) to survive the acid breath

problem solved

sirgog
09-13-2010, 09:39 PM
with all these being discussed, ie tod rings, shroud gear.... and the raid level is 15/18/21/epic?

Epic would probably require them.

Elite they would be useful, but not needed (and this raid is intended to be tuned to be tougher on Elite than, say, elite VoD or Shroud is, and most groups that attempt that have 5-6 Greensteel-geared (or epic geared) 20s.

Normal - DPSers should easily survive accidentally walking into the breath and not getting out in time to avoid the first tick of the DoT, although they can expect the raid's clerics to swear at them.

khaldan
09-13-2010, 09:43 PM
With mass prot, most dps should barely notice the breath, but will eat the first tick. I'd probably raise the DoT just to make it a bit more threatening on normal/hard.

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 09:45 PM
The discussion with those gear was aimed at surviving the 255d6 acid breath on epic
assuming alot more forgiving on normal/hard

its not just on epic alone. the key yardstick should be based on what turbine, ie a L4 quest is considered at level if 4 L4 players with average quality gear runs it. by this definition, the OP fails to understand how this quest would be too difficult

lets look at some of the numbers. the adult dragon has 36 average damage on claws, 54 per bite. in 1 second, the dragon can do 56-196 or average 126. by comparison, suulomades does a similar amount of damage and is in a L18 raid and just 25% more hp

note that suulomades does not have any other special attacks but the dragon has a special breath weapon that does 50d6 initial and 20d6 OT. thats average 175 damage initial and 70 DoT. by comparison, horoth in a L20 raid (5 levels higher) gets 3 x 50 avg DoT honor badges). now add to the fact that the dragon can GREATER DISPEL, and have a buddy that cast mass hold (whoa! 1 more item needed). then the other buddy arrives and start regening her 200hp/s. no biggie but this buddy does 4x62 damage for 250 damage/s and he teleports around meaning at level casters and healers are very likely to be 1 shotted

looking at the levels, this is L15, shroud is L17. you can forget greensteel weapons. you can forget DT armors if we are talking about non vets running it. take a 16 con human fighter as the tank. you will have 300-350 hp on a basic geared toon (using +4 stat items, IFL, minos, no GS, no +2 tome). again i stress, what the OP stated, basic geared toon. with luck they may hit 350-400

i think you know what i'm getting at. setting this to 18 or 19 will be a better idea

khaldan
09-13-2010, 09:49 PM
The DoT isn't like horoth's DoT, or anything of the kind. It's basically a persistent acid rain on the location of the breath, that only affects you while in the acid rain. Run out of it after she breathes, and you'll never get hit by it.

The greater dispel should only happen after 3-4 attacks that don't get a roll(You're kiting the encounter).

Note that since this is also a raid, the 4 character thing doesn't apply anymore. Full group of better than average gear should be the norm. You shouldn't need a perfect group, but 11 clerics 1 tank probably won't do that well either.

sirgog
09-13-2010, 09:54 PM
its not just on epic alone. the key yardstick should be based on what turbine, ie a L4 quest is considered at level if 4 L4 players with average quality gear runs it. by this definition, the OP fails to understand how this quest would be too difficult

lets look at some of the numbers. the adult dragon has 36 average damage on claws, 54 per bite. in 1 second, the dragon can do 56-196 or average 126. by comparison, suulomades does a similar amount of damage and is in a L18 raid and just 25% more hp

note that suulomades does not have any other special attacks but the dragon has a special breath weapon that does 50d6 initial and 20d6 OT. thats average 175 damage initial and 70 DoT. by comparison, horoth in a L20 raid (5 levels higher) gets 3 x 50 avg DoT honor badges). now add to the fact that the dragon can GREATER DISPEL, and have a buddy that cast mass hold (whoa! 1 more item needed). then the other buddy arrives and start regening her 200hp/s. no biggie but this buddy does 4x62 damage for 250 damage/s and he teleports around meaning at level casters and healers are very likely to be 1 shotted

looking at the levels, this is L15, shroud is L17. you can forget greensteel weapons. you can forget DT armors if we are talking about non vets running it. take a 16 con human fighter as the tank. you will have 300-350 hp on a basic geared toon (using +4 stat items, IFL, minos, no GS, no +2 tome). again i stress, what the OP stated, basic geared toon. with luck they may hit 350-400

i think you know what i'm getting at. setting this to 18 or 19 will be a better idea

It could well be tuned a little wrongly. However, this is how I see it:

1) Suulomades isn't the only threat in VoD. Battling Suulo alone would be a fine level 15 raid encounter, IMO - the dangerous moments in that raid come when you are facing Suulo and six devils, or Suulo and four big mean orthons, or Suulo and eight suicide bomber firebats.

2) Suulo has an anti-healing curse. This results in unpredictably losing heals - which makes him much harder to handle unless you have a large HP buffer. (Of course, a WF tank and an arcane healbot negates this). Healers in VoD are also subject to more attacks and hence more spell interruptions (Quicken prevents some of these, but not scroll interruptions).

3) The Glabrezu is intended to be a hard mode. Just as Litany of the Dead is a fair level 15 quest for modestly-equipped players unless you do the Cholthuzz optional, which makes it tougher than most level 17 quests, taking on the Glabrezu is meant to make the raid tough.

4) Only playtesting would tell, however. If the Devs implemented something like this and Mournlands PUGs couldn't beat it on Normal after ten tries, I'd say go ahead and tweak it.

5) As for the dispels - if the same target is getting targetted with Dispels and Holds, then something has gone very wrong (you really want different players to have the aggro of each foe).

6) One more thing: It's not hard to get enough of an AC that you mitigate a significant chunk of normal Vilgratha's melee damage. An AC in the high 50s is somewhat useful, and an AC in the mid 60s is quite a solid defense.

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 10:04 PM
The DoT isn't like horoth's DoT, or anything of the kind. It's basically a persistent acid rain on the location of the breath, that only affects you while in the acid rain. Run out of it after she breathes, and you'll never get hit by it.

The greater dispel should only happen after 3-4 attacks that don't get a roll(You're kiting the encounter).

Note that since this is also a raid, the 4 character thing doesn't apply anymore. Full group of better than average gear should be the norm. You shouldn't need a perfect group, but 11 clerics 1 tank probably won't do that well either.

i agree but it also depends on how big the cloud is or the size of the room. huge room like white dragon room with pillars to hide behind will be beneficial. if the cloud is like ck, it can easily be avoide but a high fog kind cloud will be problematic

there is 1 raid boss that dispels and in that raid the only needed buff is haste and fire resist. in comparison, a lot more buffs are required and this will be taxing to a L15 player that needed to keep applying the buff

the 4 character is just a yardstick for how regular quests are based on by turbine. bump this up to an equivalent yardstick for raids. as i mentioned, this encounter is too high for L15 given all these abilities the mobs get. like you said, BETTER than AVERAGE gear. OP said BASIC gear

khaldan
09-13-2010, 10:08 PM
i agree but it also depends on how big the cloud is or the size of the room. huge room like white dragon room with pillars to hide behind will be beneficial. if the cloud is like ck, it can easily be avoide but a high fog kind cloud will be problematic

there is 1 raid boss that dispels and in that raid the only needed buff is haste and fire resist. in comparison, a lot more buffs are required and this will be taxing to a L15 player that needed to keep applying the buff

the 4 character is just a yardstick for how regular quests are based on by turbine. bump this up to an equivalent yardstick for raids. as i mentioned, this encounter is too high for L15 given all these abilities the mobs get. like you said, BETTER than AVERAGE gear. OP said BASIC gear

12 second DoT that should probably be the same size as acid rain(maybe 2/3 the size of haste). It won't fill up the room, but if you just /autoattack/afk, expect to die.

The dispel really shouldn't come up, but a cleric dropping scroll prot gives 108 acid prot, along with acid resist for another 30. The breath should be doing around 170, so if you run out of the fire(the DoT, I just like fire), it's not that big a deal.

Of course, DDO hasn't had anything like fire, so it would be an interesting thing to see.

k0ukla
09-13-2010, 10:13 PM
wow numot nice post ;) oh and /signed

how long that take you?

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 10:21 PM
It could well be tuned a little wrongly. However, this is how I see it:

1) Suulomades isn't the only threat in VoD. Battling Suulo alone would be a fine level 15 raid encounter, IMO - the dangerous moments in that raid come when you are facing Suulo and six devils, or Suulo and four big mean orthons, or Suulo and eight suicide bomber firebats.

6 devils? devils spawn 2-3 at a time, never 6. the only reason you get 6 is when you let them live too long and since they are non red names, subject to crowd control. orthons i agree are tougher but they are also hardly any challenge for L18 players given that they port way less than the devils and are sometimes inclined to use their repeater attack which is much less powerful than their cleave. for the bats, they are sufficiently low hp enough to be kill in 1-2 hits by a melee or ranged attack


2) Suulo has an anti-healing curse. This results in unpredictably losing heals - which makes him much harder to handle unless you have a large HP buffer. (Of course, a WF tank and an arcane healbot negates this). Healers in VoD are also subject to more attacks and hence more spell interruptions (Quicken prevents some of these, but not scroll interruptions).

the healing curse problem is 2 fold. firstly, there is nothing stopping the player to use a remove curse pot. i've tanked suulo on my no ac melee using pots. it requires a coordination effort (or you could have someone on curse duty). the next is curse pots are not WAI

yes healers are interrupted but the devils will not kill the healer. the demon ally in the suggested raid will. this is the major different. if his port is a random and quick as that of devils, the raid can fail at an instant. game mechanics which rely on such touch and go senarios are bad


3) The Glabrezu is intended to be a hard mode. Just as Litany of the Dead is a fair level 15 quest for modestly-equipped players unless you do the Cholthuzz optional, which makes it tougher than most level 17 quests, taking on the Glabrezu is meant to make the raid tough.

many items can make the cholthuzz fight easier and they are all easily available (if you buy the pack). apart from the skeletons (which are stationary and a caster can simply firewall, hide in water), cholthuzz has no other allies. this is different from fighting 2 purple named at once


4) Only playtesting would tell, however. If the Devs implemented something like this and Mournlands PUGs couldn't beat it on Normal after ten tries, I'd say go ahead and tweak it.

you cannot equate a mounland pug with a live server pug


5) As for the dispels - if the same target is getting targetted with Dispels and Holds, then something has gone very wrong (you really want different players to have the aggro of each foe).

it doesnt have to be constant. just a dispel followed by a hold is very sufficient to drop the tank unless the healers put on some super human feat


6) One more thing: It's not hard to get enough of an AC that you mitigate a significant chunk of normal Vilgratha's melee damage. An AC in the high 50s is somewhat useful, and an AC in the mid 60s is quite a solid defense.

break down the AC. make it a pug group, and BASIC gear

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 10:24 PM
12 second DoT that should probably be the same size as acid rain(maybe 2/3 the size of haste). It won't fill up the room, but if you just /autoattack/afk, expect to die.

The dispel really shouldn't come up, but a cleric dropping scroll prot gives 108 acid prot, along with acid resist for another 30. The breath should be doing around 170, so if you run out of the fire(the DoT, I just like fire), it's not that big a deal.

Of course, DDO hasn't had anything like fire, so it would be an interesting thing to see.

you see the problem there? the rebuffing is going to take a huge chunk of sp. no raids on normal difficulty should require resources in order to successfully complete it

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 10:26 PM
wow numot nice post ;) oh and /signed

how long that take you?

ohhh we did tod yesterday?

khaldan
09-13-2010, 10:26 PM
Vilgratha, Green Dragon:
HP: 120000/200000/300000/550000 (for comparison, Suulomades in VOD has 150k/250k/350k)
Attacks with two claws, a bite, a wing buffet, a breath weapon, and spells.

Melee attacks:
Claws: Attack at +52/+58/+64/+77 for 8d6+8/8d8+10/8d12+14/12d12+20 damage per swing.
Bite: Attacks at +62/+68/+74/+87 for 12d6+12/12d8+15/12d12+21/24d12+30 damage. In addition, if Vilgratha's breath is off cooldown, the bite attack deals an extra 10d6/12d6/14d6/20d6 acid damage.
Wing buffet: Attacks all foes in melee range of the dragon, except those in front of her (those that are being hit by both claws and the bite). Attacks at the same attack bonus as the claws. Deals 10d6/10d8/10d12/20d12 damage, and those that fail a Strength check (DC 20/22/25/30) are thrown across the room.
Claw attacks are 20/x3 crit. Bite attacks are 19-20/x2.
On a vorpal strike, her bite attack procs the same debuff as her young. (If the tank suffers this debuff, it is intended that they 'turtle up', or that another tank is ready to Intimidate Vilgratha and be the main aggro target for the duration of the debuff. Even on Epic, tanks that turtle should be able to survive critical hits).

Breath attack:
Vilgratha's breath is the same as her juvenille's breath, but much more damaging. It deals five times as much initial damage, and five times as much damage over time, as the juvenille's breath. Save DC is 11 higher than the juvenille's DC. On Normal through Elite, this is easily survived - on Epic, it deals 225d6 initial damage (average just under 800), which is likely to be lethal to a tank that fails their save, unless they are wearing an acid absorption item (it's intended that, in the two second windup, they switch to one, much as a small number of players do when fighting epic Velah).
Like the whelp, thie main target of this breath attack cannot avoid the breath by moving (although by moving, they can ensure that they are the only person hit by it, and that the damage-over-time cloud doesn't fall in an area where you don't want it.

Spellcasting:
Vilgratha will cast the following spells:
Chain Missiles, Firewall, Chain Lightning, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Symbol of Pain, Greater Dispelling.
On Hard only, add Waves of Fatigue.
On Elite and Epic, add Waves of Exhaustion.
On Epic only, add Trap the Soul and Horrid Wilting.
Spells are maximized on all difficulties, and empowered on Elite and Epic.
Vigratha generally prefers melee over spellcasting, but will cast spells if she is aggroed on someone that is out of melee range, or occasionally when in melee. If she misses four melee attacks in a row on her main aggro target, she will dispel them, then throw a Firewall or Ice Storm under them, then return to melee.

Aggro patterns: Standard.



If you can't be bothered to rebuff, don't use an AC tank. No more debuffing :D

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 10:43 PM
If you can't be bothered to rebuff, don't use an AC tank. No more debuffing :D

i read that but there is a still huge implication. consider this senario, bite debuff tank, tank dispelled, demon ally ports near, tank mass held, firewall drops, tank melee attacked, tank dead

this is the timeline

T=0, tank hit by fort debuff
T=1, 3 attacks miss tank
T=2, 3 more attack miss tank (4 misses total)
T=3, tank dispelled
T=4, tank firewall, tank held
T=5, crit melee attacks on tank (fort reduced by 25%, approx 160 damage instead of 126)
T=6, crit melee attacks on tank

khaldan
09-13-2010, 10:45 PM
i read that but there is a still huge implication. consider this senario, bite debuff tank, tank dispelled, demon ally ports near, tank mass held, firewall drops, tank melee attacked, tank dead

this is the timeline

T=0, tank hit by fort debuff
T=1, 3 attacks miss tank
T=2, 3 more attack miss tank (4 misses total)
T=3, tank dispelled
T=4, tank firewall, tank held
T=5, crit melee attacks on tank (fort reduced by 25%, approx 160 damage instead of 126)
T=6, crit melee attacks on tank

.. Why are you tanking them together? The idea was to have a second person tank the devil off the raid so this wouldn't happen.

FluffyCalico
09-13-2010, 10:46 PM
T=5, crit melee attacks on tank (fort reduced by 25%, approx 160 damage instead of 126)


WF have 125% fort :eek:

khaldan
09-13-2010, 10:48 PM
WF have 125% fort :eek:

WF tanking does kinda trivialize it on normal and hard, to be honest.

AyumiAmakusa
09-13-2010, 10:51 PM
You.....have a lot of time.

Seriously though, I vote that Turbine employs you for the position of Quest Designs and Suggestions (like your Update 7 wishlist).

sirgog
09-13-2010, 10:58 PM
i read that but there is a still huge implication. consider this senario, bite debuff tank, tank dispelled, demon ally ports near, tank mass held, firewall drops, tank melee attacked, tank dead

this is the timeline

T=0, tank hit by fort debuff
T=1, 3 attacks miss tank
T=2, 3 more attack miss tank (4 misses total)
T=3, tank dispelled
T=4, tank firewall, tank held
T=5, crit melee attacks on tank (fort reduced by 25%, approx 160 damage instead of 126)
T=6, crit melee attacks on tank

The dragon tank should never be close enough to the devil tank for this to happen, unless the raid screws up badly. If that happens, let them wipe (or have a bunch of deaths followed by a truly impressive recovery). Plus, even when held and debuffed, you still benefit from 75% fortification.

I also don't intend that the dragon attacks three times per second.

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 11:05 PM
.. Why are you tanking them together? The idea was to have a second person tank the devil off the raid so this wouldn't happen.

standard argo mechanics of a pit fiend boss like arraetrikos is random agro. notice how even when boxed in he still fireballs the healers and others outside the range?


The dragon tank should never be close enough to the devil tank for this to happen, unless the raid screws up badly. If that happens, let them wipe (or have a bunch of deaths followed by a truly impressive recovery).

in a level appropiate group (L15), it is very hard to recover, which is why i suggested that the raid level be increased. this greatly increases raid group survivability and reduces the chances of wipes

remember, pugs these days are different from 1.5yrs ago. the standard of pugs dropped so much they cannot complete an at level shroud, vod, hound


I also don't intend that the dragon attacks three times per second.

that is the typical attack rate of many ddo dragons

ColinQ
09-13-2010, 11:10 PM
i read that but there is a still huge implication. consider this senario, bite debuff tank, tank dispelled, demon ally ports near, tank mass held, firewall drops, tank melee attacked, tank dead

this is the timeline

T=0, tank hit by fort debuff
T=1, 3 attacks miss tank
T=2, 3 more attack miss tank (4 misses total)
T=3, tank dispelled
T=4, tank firewall, tank held
T=5, crit melee attacks on tank (fort reduced by 25%, approx 160 damage instead of 126)
T=6, crit melee attacks on tank

Think GH Tor white dragon fight:
WF arcane kite mummy dragon with firewall while rest of the group take out the devil, protection from energy + resis before the acid breath and reconstruct through the rest

Only difference being
Don’t need to take out both boss together
Main group don’t get dispelled while fighting the devil

Aranticus
09-13-2010, 11:17 PM
Think GH Tor white dragon fight:
WF arcane kite mummy dragon with firewall while rest of the group take out the devil, protection from energy + resis before the acid breath and reconstruct through the rest

this is like tod part 2. i think many people can agree tod part 2 is bad game design

sirgog
09-13-2010, 11:20 PM
standard argo mechanics of a pit fiend boss like arraetrikos is random agro. notice how even when boxed in he still fireballs the healers and others outside the range?




That's Arraetrikos only. All the other Fiends - Barnizdu, Horoth, Gorgith-Tor and the Battlefield rare - use regular aggro.

sirgog
09-14-2010, 01:33 AM
Updated - added some extra loot ideas to post 2.

Aranticus
09-14-2010, 01:40 AM
That's Arraetrikos only. All the other Fiends - Barnizdu, Horoth, Gorgith-Tor and the Battlefield rare - use regular aggro.

so you are saying an immobile boss that doesnt change agro? then i conceed the point but not to nitpick


Nythaxtor:
Nythaxtor is summoned by Vilgratha when she reaches 50% hp.
HP: 70000/85000/120000/175000
Melee attacks: Deals about two thirds as much damage as Arraetrikos on the same difficulty level (on Epic, deals as much damage as elite Arraetrikos). Same attack bonuses as Harry. However, all attacks are 19-20/x4 crits (x5 on Epic). In addition, his melee claw attacks hit a full 360 degree radius, unlike Arraetrikos' attacks which hit about a 270 degree radius.
Spellcasting: Casts Mass Hold Monster, Delayed Blast Fireball, Slow, Ray of Enfeeblement, Sleet Storm and Horrid Wilting. Has only Empower Spell, and as such isn't too deadly, but the spells will be annoying.
Aggro pattern: Standard.

you did reference to arraetrikos

now it raises another another problem. many players are sick and tired of such beat down fights

sirgog
09-14-2010, 01:46 AM
1. so you are saying an immobile boss that doesnt change agro? then i conceed the point but not to nitpick



2. you did reference to arraetrikos

3. now it raises another another problem. many players are sick and tired of such beat down fights

1. Mobile, but with standard aggro patterns (i.e. moves towards and attacks the person with the highest threat, just like Horoth does).

2. Referencing Harry was probably a mistake.

3. I intended Nythaxtor to not last overly long (if you choose to slay him) for exactly that reason. He could possibly do with a couple of abilities that reward mobility, however - maybe he lays extremely powerful Delayed Blast Fireball traps at times and the melees are better off fleeing the area to avoid them.

Aranticus
09-14-2010, 01:50 AM
3. I intended Nythaxtor to not last overly long (if you choose to slay him) for exactly that reason. He could possibly do with a couple of abilities that reward mobility, however - maybe he lays extremely powerful Delayed Blast Fireball traps at times and the melees are better off fleeing the area to avoid them.

how powerful? too powerful it means no room for error. to weak it becomes a joke. this is the problem turbine has when it comes to quest/raid balance. at 70k hp, i'd expect a beatdown ala legion style

sirgog
09-14-2010, 01:56 AM
how powerful? too powerful it means no room for error. to weak it becomes a joke. this is the problem turbine has when it comes to quest/raid balance. at 70k hp, i'd expect a beatdown ala legion style

Something like this:

Epic - save or die (and likely die even if you make the save, unless you have stacked Fire Absorbtion)
Elite - save or die unless you stack fire absorb (then it's save or take a world of hurt)
Hard - save or die if you are squishy
Normal - save or be badly bruised

Or in numbers:
Epic: ~1800 fire damage - hard to survive even if you save (well geared 20s)
Elite: ~900 fire damage - easy to survive if you save, hard to survive otherwise (well geared 18+'s)
Hard: ~450 fire damage - survivable on a failed save, but squishies get, well, squished (ungeared 18+'s)
Normal: ~225 fire damage - painful on a failed save, maybe fatal to the squishy (ungeared 15+'s)

Admiral_Otto
09-14-2010, 02:04 AM
Impressive work and suggestions. Like a few people have implied, it might need tweeked here and there some but overall I like the ideas and effort.

Many mummy huzzahs for you!

Aranticus
09-14-2010, 02:10 AM
All of these can be converted to docents (and back again) by placing them in a Stone of Change with one Green Dragon Charm (or Demonic Emblem for the demon-infused versions).

why the need to penalise wf?


Cracked Green Dragonplate Carapace [COLOR="red"]L15 raid
Cost: 25 cracked green dragon scales
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 10
Enhanced max Dex - +3 DT is only +1
+5 total 15, DT is also 15
Acid Absorbtion: 10% equivalent to tier 1 GS
DR 5/-
Lesser Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Touch ability (dealing 1 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Incite +20% equivalent to sov rune

Green Dragonplate Carapace L18 raid
Cost: 25 green dragon scales
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 11
Enhanced max Dex - +4
+5 total 16, MBD equivalent to some epics
Acid Absorbtion: 20% equivalent to GS tier 3
DR 5/-
Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Incite +20% sov rune equivalent
Superior False Life equivalent to suppressed power

Epic Green Dragonplate Carapace
Cost: 25 flawless green dragon scales
Full Plate
Enhanced base AC - 11
Enhanced max Dex - +4
+6 total 17, MBD +4, red plate is 10, +6, MBD is 2
Acid Absorbtion: 20%
DR 8/- epic stonemeld is only 5/-
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit and even more on a critical hit).
Incite +30%
Epic False Life (+50 hp) all these are grossly overpowered
Blue Augment Slot
Green Augment Slot


Tainted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 tainted green dragon scales
Leather armor
+5
Acid Absorbtion: 20%
Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit).
Melee alacrity +15% (does not stack with Haste)
Ranged alacrity +15%
Sneak Attack +3

Corrupted Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 corrupted green dragon scales
Leather armor
+5
Acid Absorbtion: 20%
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit plus more on a critical).
Melee alacrity +15% (does not stack with Haste)
Ranged alacrity +15%
Sneak Attack +5
Double strike chance: +5%

Epic Infernal Green Dragonscale Leathers
Cost: 25 infernal green dragon scales
Leather armor
+7
Acid Absorbtion: 20%
Greater Caustic Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains the Acid Burst ability (dealing 1d6 extra acid damage on a successful hit plus more on a critical).
Melee alacrity +20% (does not stack with Haste)
Ranged alacrity +20%
Sneak Attack +5
Double strike chance: +5%

these are overpowered as well

Vilgratha's Chest (incomplete list of items):

Glattrack's Bane
Greatsword
Piercing and slashing
+3
Holy
Cold Iron
Augmented base damage - deals 4d6 base damage
Augmented critical - crits 19-20/x3
Additional potential: This weapon, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Green Dragon Charms. (Upon upgrading it, it becomes +5 and gains Maiming and Epic Potential, and its name changes to Greater Glattrack's Bane. It also gains the ability to bypass DR/epic.)
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This weapon's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Green Dragon Charms in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +6, gains Trap the Soul, gains a red augment slot and an orange augment slot, damage increases to 4d8, and it gains the following ability: "Epic Destruction: On a vorpal strike, the weapon inflicts a 50% fortification penalty on the foe struck for 15 seconds".
A fang of the great dragon Vilgratha, removed and turned into a huge blade. Its unusual manufacture allows it to be used to stab as well as to slash.


Lifegiver's Helm
Helmet
Wizardry 7
Major Healing Lore
Minor Devotion 9
Additional potential: This helmet, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Green Dragon Charms. Upon upgrading it, it becomes Archmagi and gains the Shroud exceptional 100 SP ability, and improves to Lesser Devotion 9. It also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This helmet's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Green Dragon Charms in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it improves to Wizardry 10, gains the Shroud exceptional 50 SP ability, gains Healing Mastery 3: Your Healing spells cost 3 less SP to cast, and gains Greater Disruption Guard.


Fullplate of the Dragon Warden
Fullplate (base AC +10, max dex +2)
+4
Greater Acid Resistance
Earthgrab Guard
Heavy Fortification
Healing Amplification: 10%
Additional potential: This armor, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Green Dragon Charms. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +5, improves to Superior Acid Resistance, gains Greater False Life, and also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This armor's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Green Dragon Charms in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +6, its max Dex increases to +4, it gains a blue slot and a green slot, loses Healing Amplification 10% and instead gains Healing Amplification: 40%, and loses Heavy Fortification and instead gains "Supreme Fortification: This item grants a 150% bonus to fortification, granting total immunity to additional damage on critical hits even while subject to some effects that reduce fortification."


Docent of Earth
+5
Moderate Fortification
Earthen Guard
Greater Acid Resistance
Additional potential: This armor, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Green Dragon Charms. Upon upgrading it, it gains Reinforced Plating: +2 and Greater False Life, and improves to Superior Acid Resistace. In addition, it also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This armor's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Green Dragon Charms in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +6, gains a blue slot and a green slot, and gains Repair Amplification: 30%.


Nythaxtor's Chest:

Circlet of Domination
Helmet
Command
Enchantment Focus
Clicky - Symbol of Persuasion 3/rest, caster level 16, save DC increased to 28
Additional potential: This helmet, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Symbols of the Tyrant. Upon upgrading it, Enchantment Foucs improves to Greater Enchantment Focus, and the DC of the Symbol clicky increases to 33. In addition, it also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This helmet's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Demonic Emblems in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it gains Superior Enchantment Focus (+3 DC) and gains a blue slot and a colorless slot.

Sword of the Custodian
Bastard Sword
Alignment Required: Lawful Neutral (UMD 30 to bypass)
+4
Axiomatic
Holy
Unholy
Cold Iron
Augmented base damage: 2d8
Additional potential: This weapon, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Symbols of the Tyrant. Upon upgrading it, it improves to +5 and gains Concordant Opposition. In addition, it also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This weapons's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Demonic Emblems in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +7, Axiomatic, Holy and Unholy are replaced with Axiomatic Burst, Holy Burst and Unholy Burst, and it gains Augmented Critical: 17-20/x2.


Glattrack's Chest:

Razor Handwraps
Handwraps
+3
Metalline
Vicious
Savage Cut: On a vorpal strike, an attack with these wraps deals an additional 100 slashing damage.
Additional potential: This weapon, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Demonic Emblems. Upon upgrading them, they become +5, gain Impact and Seeker +6, and gain the ability to bypass Epic DR. They also gain Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This weapon's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Demonic Emblems in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +8, and the damage of Savage Cut increases to 200. In addition, the Seeker bonus improves to +10.
These cruel wraps are a favorite among duelling demons, who celebrate the pain they suffer even as they enjoy their victories.


Stormblade
Shortsword
+3
Anarchic Burst
Lightning Strike
Augmented Base Damage - 2d8
Additional potential: This weapon, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Demonic Emblems. Upon upgrading, it becomes +4 and gains Shock and Vorpal.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This weapon's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Demonic Emblems in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it becomes +6, gains a red slot and a violet slot, and gains Augmented Critical - 17-20/x2 and Lightning Storm Guard.
The chaos of a thunderstorm, contained in a single blade.


Shroud of Annihalation
Cloak
Disintegration Guard
Additional potential: This cloak, whilst powerful, could be further upgraded by combining it in a Stone of Change with twenty Demonic Emblems. Upon upgrading, it gains Corrosive Salt Guard. It also gains Epic Potential.
Epic Potential (upgraded version only): This cloaks's full power can be unlocked by combining it and fifteen Epic Demonic Emblems in an Altar of Epic Rituals. Upon upgrading it, it gains a yellow augment slot, and gains 'Disintegrating Strike: The weapon in your main hand gains Disintegration (it sometimes causes a terrible surge of power that disintegrates foes for tremendous damage).'. This adds Disintegration (as the Shroud weapon ability) to that weapon.

i wont even comment how overpowered all these raid items are. seriously, the idea of the raid is good but balance is never your forte

Therilith
09-14-2010, 02:14 AM
Sounds great.
Named loot looks a little too powerful though.

What level are current epic dungeons?
Wouldn't
26 (epic)
drop some pretty insane random loot?

k0ukla
09-14-2010, 02:19 AM
ohhh we did tod yesterday?

we sure did :)

sirgog
09-14-2010, 07:47 AM
Sounds great.
Named loot looks a little too powerful though.

What level are current epic dungeons?
Wouldn't
26 (epic)
drop some pretty insane random loot?

Sadly, it would just drop the same level 23 loot as other epics. The Devs confirmed a while back that no higher treasure table exists.

As for the power level of the non-dragonscale named loot: My intention was that the 'base' items (which require a few runs of a level 15 raid) are a fair bit weaker than tier 3 greensteel. The 'elite' versions require a couple of dozen Hard runs, or a small number of Elites, and are intended to roughly match the power level of tier 3 Shroud items. Epic versions are extremely hard to obtain and require many completions of extremely difficult content, and as such should be slightly superior to existing Epic items. I'm most concerned that the Epic Shroud of Annihalation may be overpowered, but, hey, it's harder to get than the Epic Claw set and IMO no stronger overall (although they do different things).


As for the Dragonscale armors - I took the power level of the level 14 dragonscale armors, recognised that players won't realistically craft even the basic one until level 18 or so, and so scaled them up in power about 4 levels for the 'cracked' versions. The regular and Epic versions are more powerful. The AC values may very well be overpowered - I don't play a single high level AC build so I'm not an expert on this matter.

khaldan
09-14-2010, 02:12 PM
Crappy MS paint time to help try and explain what should be going on! Well, assuming I understand the raid itself. Hopefully I'm right.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/7181/greendragonraid1.png

After you've defeated the wyrmling, the dragon is going to land the the center. Pick a side and gather in it, but for the purposes of explaining, The raid is in the blue box. The green dragon is of course, green, with nythrios' spawn point being orange and the demon's spawn point being dark red, if applicible. After this, the encounter starts, and should look something like this.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4588/greendragonraid2.png

The green dragon is green, and the devil/demon are still the same colors. The light teal is your tanks, and the light grey is the healers. The yellow is going to be the melee dps if they're on the dragon. If one of the other adds is up, and you need to kill them, they move up north with the second tank, kill the add, and move back to the dragon.

A few things of note, because my scale sucks: The healers are in range of the demon/devil tank and the dragon tank at the same time. If a lingering breath happens, the tank moves outside of it, towards the healers while sticking on the wall, and the dps generally stays in place. Move back after the second breath. Repeat until dead.

Hollowgolem
09-14-2010, 05:29 PM
Sadly, it would just drop the same level 23 loot as other epics. The Devs confirmed a while back that no higher treasure table exists.

At least not yet!

</hope>

Therilith
09-14-2010, 11:46 PM
Sadly, it would just drop the same level 23 loot as other epics. The Devs confirmed a while back that no higher treasure table exists.

Well, yeah but I assumed they would have to create new ones for this, since the last time this was actually an issue was some hypothetical combination of ToD elite with loot gems during a +loot event.

Does the dungeon level actually matter at level 20 aside from determining loot tables?

sirgog
09-15-2010, 12:04 AM
Well, yeah but I assumed they would have to create new ones for this, since the last time this was actually an issue was some hypothetical combination of ToD elite with loot gems during a +loot event.

Does the dungeon level actually matter at level 20 aside from determining loot tables?

AFAIK, Dungeon levels 23 and higher are equivalent for all purposes except possibly default trap damage and trap DCs (Devs can manually override these).

The purpose of the 26 is to warn players - this is harder than other epics. (Some other Epics could do with levels lower than 25 for the same reason).

sirgog
10-06-2010, 11:44 AM
Crappy MS paint time to help try and explain what should be going on! Well, assuming I understand the raid itself. Hopefully I'm right.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/7181/greendragonraid1.png

After you've defeated the wyrmling, the dragon is going to land the the center. Pick a side and gather in it, but for the purposes of explaining, The raid is in the blue box. The green dragon is of course, green, with nythrios' spawn point being orange and the demon's spawn point being dark red, if applicible. After this, the encounter starts, and should look something like this.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4588/greendragonraid2.png

The green dragon is green, and the devil/demon are still the same colors. The light teal is your tanks, and the light grey is the healers. The yellow is going to be the melee dps if they're on the dragon. If one of the other adds is up, and you need to kill them, they move up north with the second tank, kill the add, and move back to the dragon.

A few things of note, because my scale sucks: The healers are in range of the demon/devil tank and the dragon tank at the same time. If a lingering breath happens, the tank moves outside of it, towards the healers while sticking on the wall, and the dps generally stays in place. Move back after the second breath. Repeat until dead.

That soooo looks like something out of a WoW forum.

khaldan
10-06-2010, 05:32 PM
That soooo looks like something out of a WoW forum.

Considering that's the first MS paint thing I've done in years, it could have been worse.

Not quite sure how, though.

jcTharin
10-06-2010, 06:01 PM
Considering that's the first MS paint thing I've done in years, it could have been worse.

Not quite sure how, though.

you could have put angry faces that went rarw! on the all the enemies.

Gladiator_206
10-06-2010, 06:43 PM
so....

i loved absolutley everything. This MUST get seen by a dev.
The amount of work and consideration you put in? wow

/signed and signed AGAIN.

great idea.

shores11
10-06-2010, 07:10 PM
Stirring the Hornets' Nest

Raid
Level 15 (normal), 18 (hard), 21 (elite), 26 (epic)

The dungeon levels need to stay within the already setup style of DDO

i.e. Level 19 (normal), Level 20 (hard), Level 21 (elite), Level 25 (epic)


The foes:
Grathvinda, Wyrmling Green Dragon
15000/25000/35000/75000hp (n/h/e/epic) - for comparison, Shroud lieutenants have about 10k/20k/30k hp
Attacks with claws, a bite, and a breath attack which is a cone of acid. Claws do 3d6+6/3d8+8/3d10+10/4d12+20 damage, 20/x2 crits. Bite does double that, and on a vorpal strike inflicts a debuff that grants a -25/25/50/50% penalty to fortification for 6 seconds. (It is intended that players will have no trouble surviving critical hits in this encounter).

His breath deals 10d6/15d6/20d6/45d6 initial acid damage (Reflex DC 24/27/30/36 for half). After the breath, a cloud of acid forms in the area that the breath targeted, and stays there for 12 seconds. Anyone standing in this cloud takes 4d6/6d6/8d6/18d6 acid damage per two seconds, no save. (It is intended that players move out of this, but in the wyrmling fight, it's not likely to cause player death if they do not. In the adult dragon fight, however, it probably will).

Before he breathes acid, the dragon whelp will 'wind up' for two seconds. During this time, he will not attack, and will do nothing but move and turn to face (and keep facing) his current threat target. After the breath, it's another 1.5 seconds until he can attack again. Edit for clarification - the breath will hit its main target no matter where they move to during this time.

It's intended that this encounter is no tougher than fighting two of the Shroud lieutenants at once - and it serves the purpose of showing what these green dragons can do in a more forgiving way than the next battle.

Spellcasting: None, he's just a wyrmling.

Aggro patterns: He focuses all his attacks on the foe he percieves as most threatening (highest threat), anyone else they hit is a bonus. Completely controllable aggro.


Vilgratha, Green Dragon:
HP: 120000/200000/300000/550000 (for comparison, Suulomades in VOD has 150k/250k/350k)
Attacks with two claws, a bite, a wing buffet, a breath weapon, and spells.

Melee attacks:
Claws: Attack at +52/+58/+64/+77 for 8d6+8/8d8+10/8d12+14/12d12+20 damage per swing.
Bite: Attacks at +62/+68/+74/+87 for 12d6+12/12d8+15/12d12+21/24d12+30 damage. In addition, if Vilgratha's breath is off cooldown, the bite attack deals an extra 10d6/12d6/14d6/20d6 acid damage.
Wing buffet: Attacks all foes in melee range of the dragon, except those in front of her (those that are being hit by both claws and the bite). Attacks at the same attack bonus as the claws. Deals 10d6/10d8/10d12/20d12 damage, and those that fail a Strength check (DC 20/22/25/30) are thrown across the room.
Claw attacks are 20/x3 crit. Bite attacks are 19-20/x2.
On a vorpal strike, her bite attack procs the same debuff as her young. (If the tank suffers this debuff, it is intended that they 'turtle up', or that another tank is ready to Intimidate Vilgratha and be the main aggro target for the duration of the debuff. Even on Epic, tanks that turtle should be able to survive critical hits).

Breath attack:
Vilgratha's breath is the same as her juvenille's breath, but much more damaging. It deals five times as much initial damage, and five times as much damage over time, as the juvenille's breath. Save DC is 11 higher than the juvenille's DC. On Normal through Elite, this is easily survived - on Epic, it deals 225d6 initial damage (average just under 800), which is likely to be lethal to a tank that fails their save, unless they are wearing an acid absorption item (it's intended that, in the two second windup, they switch to one, much as a small number of players do when fighting epic Velah).
Like the whelp, thie main target of this breath attack cannot avoid the breath by moving (although by moving, they can ensure that they are the only person hit by it, and that the damage-over-time cloud doesn't fall in an area where you don't want it.

You refer to her breathing acid however in D&D lore a green dragon breaths poison not acid.


I love the idea but it is very important that monsters or mobs get added to the game within D&D lore in my opinion. I once used a green dragon in one of my D&D campaigns back in the day and in general favor them amoungst the evil dragons.

Examples
Red Dragon = fire
Black Dragon = acid
White Dragaon = ice
Green Dragon = poison

Aranticus
10-06-2010, 07:19 PM
I love the idea but it is very important that monsters or mobs get added to the game within D&D lore in my opinion. I once used a green dragon in one of my D&D campaigns back in the day and in general favor them amoungst the evil dragons.

Examples
Red Dragon = fire
Black Dragon = acid
White Dragaon = ice
Green Dragon = poison

Breath Weapon (Su)
A green dragon has one type of breath weapon, a cone of corrosive (acid) gas. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#greenDragon)

sirgog
10-06-2010, 07:46 PM
I love the idea but it is very important that monsters or mobs get added to the game within D&D lore in my opinion. I once used a green dragon in one of my D&D campaigns back in the day and in general favor them amoungst the evil dragons.

Examples
Red Dragon = fire
Black Dragon = acid
White Dragaon = ice
Green Dragon = poison

Green Dragons are acid-based in 3.5 ed (they might have a poison breath in 4th Ed, I don't know).

Poison also wouldn't work well as it's so easy to become totally immune to it in DDO. Arraetrikos and Horoth have some of the most deadly poison attacks you could imagine - some people that have killed them dozens of times do not even *know* this as they are immune to poison.

pSINNa
10-06-2010, 08:49 PM
/SIGNED, (yes, that's in capitals for a reason) & +1

Great work, (from a former PnP DM), I'd love to see this taken on board for an update 11 or 12 or something.

Coit out~

sirgog
10-07-2010, 10:27 AM
Raid
Level 15 (normal), 18 (hard), 21 (elite), 26 (epic)

The dungeon levels need to stay within the already setup style of DDO

i.e. Level 19 (normal), Level 20 (hard), Level 21 (elite), Level 25 (epic)


The change from X/X+1/X+2/25 was deliberate.

For other raids (like, say, the Shroud), once a group of players get it down-pat enough that Normal is a cakewalk, Hard and Elite just aren't challenging either. If you can beat Normal easily, you can get through Elite (albeit possibly at the cost of mana potions). Hound of Xoriat is a different case altogether - that raid is genuinely difficult on Elite even for groups that can easily do Hard.

Having a wider difficulty spread lets pretty much everyone experience the raid (something ToD doesn't do - ToD normal is too hard for most casual players), whilst still offering something to provide a real challenge to veterans - both powergamers (who can fight over world first Epic Hard Mode completions) and non-powergamer vets (who can try to progress from Hard difficulty hard mode to standard Elite to Elite hard mode to Epic, some people will get stuck at different points along the way).

In a game where some people wipe in Casual difficulty A New Invasion and others solo it on Elite, this lets all of those players enjoy the new content (and hence gives them all an incentive to buy it).

Zorack00
10-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Great Idea.

Only thing I saw was pretty trivial but it's still there, it's that Stormblade is a short sword (piercing damage), so I don't think it is able to get vorpal.

sirgog
12-17-2010, 07:36 AM
Great Idea.

Only thing I saw was pretty trivial but it's still there, it's that Stormblade is a short sword (piercing damage), so I don't think it is able to get vorpal.

Not normally, no. But there's precedents for raid loot breaking rules like that - there's a banishing longsword (slashing weapon) in the Abbot raid loot tables.


Just took another look at the damage output of the bosses. It might be necessary to make Nythaxtor tougher, as currently I believe this might be quite a lot easier to beat on Epic without engaging the Glabrezu than it is to beat on Elite with the Glabrezu optional. Currently Epic Vilgratha does about as much melee damage as Elite Horoth, I feel this should be higher.

Ziindarax
12-17-2010, 09:47 AM
/sign a million times

More challenging raids please! :)

Ziindarax
12-19-2010, 04:20 PM
Added +1 rep.


One quick question, and forgive me if I've missed this, but how would one go about repairing Green Dragon armor?

BansheeMalthus
12-19-2010, 04:39 PM
Very Nice work. How about some Daelkyr, instead of devils, to throw an additional twist in?

azrael4h
12-19-2010, 06:41 PM
+1, well thought out. This looks like you spent some considerable time putting this together. Now if only Turbine will look and LISTEN.

sephiroth1084
12-19-2010, 07:24 PM
Didn't read all of the item descriptions, but the whole thing looks pretty good. I'll say, though, that I'm not too excited for more Shavarath related content. Currently we have 4 of the 10 raids in the game devoted to Shavarath enemies. Still, the roles assigned to the two secondary bosses make sense as devils or demons, so...

(As you may know) I'm a big supporter of Devil Assault-style level brackets tied to quest difficulty, particularly in the case of raids, so that concept is scoring major points with me.

I like the idea of the modularity of the raid, with options for differing difficulties within the raid itself, different outcomes, and alternate types of loot available, but I can envision some people wanting to complete the raid one way for certain loot, while others want to complete it another way for the other type of loot. Part of the win that the devs have with ToD is that you're not losing out on anything really tangible by not dealing with Sulu.

Also, on a brief skim, it looked like an awful lot of **** to have to collect for the gear...

sephiroth1084
12-19-2010, 07:34 PM
The change from X/X+1/X+2/25 was deliberate.

For other raids (like, say, the Shroud), once a group of players get it down-pat enough that Normal is a cakewalk, Hard and Elite just aren't challenging either. If you can beat Normal easily, you can get through Elite (albeit possibly at the cost of mana potions). Hound of Xoriat is a different case altogether - that raid is genuinely difficult on Elite even for groups that can easily do Hard.

Having a wider difficulty spread lets pretty much everyone experience the raid (something ToD doesn't do - ToD normal is too hard for most casual players), whilst still offering something to provide a real challenge to veterans - both powergamers (who can fight over world first Epic Hard Mode completions) and non-powergamer vets (who can try to progress from Hard difficulty hard mode to standard Elite to Elite hard mode to Epic, some people will get stuck at different points along the way).

In a game where some people wipe in Casual difficulty A New Invasion and others solo it on Elite, this lets all of those players enjoy the new content (and hence gives them all an incentive to buy it).
Additionally, there is the matter of leveling through the appropriate range too quickly, and of then having a raid you want to run, but that poses little challenge due to everyone being well above the quest level (not to mention that it's very difficult to get level-appropriate raid groups together for raids well below the level cap).

Think about most of the raids we have, and what the questing behavior is like: maybe you run Reaver once or twice when you're in the 14-16 range, 3 or 4 times if you're kind of slow leveling or a double TR, Titan and DQ get run maybe once each while in the appropriate level range. Ditto for VoN. The Shroud gets run a little more in the intended range, simply because it is such a significant stopping point for everyone, but most characters are running in 17-20 groups and totally obliterating the thing, because it's a cakewalk.

By spacing out the level ranges for the raid, the quest is ensured to continue to be both relevant and challenging as people level through other content. As a raid, it necessarily encourages a considerable degree of repetition, so keeping it at least somewhat fresh is important. Also, and I really like this inclusion on Sirgog's part, the fact that the loot scales with the level/difficulty, and lower level gear contributes to higher level, while the higher level versions of the raid don't force players to head back to the lower levels in order to gain something they missed.

Honestly, I'd like to see all of the raids scaled like this, so that there is something in between running VoN for XP until level 13, and then running it on epic at level 20, for example. Similarly, I'd like Shroud Hard and Elite to get scaled in some way for there to be reason to run it.

Ziindarax
12-20-2010, 10:17 AM
Additionally, there is the matter of leveling through the appropriate range too quickly, and of then having a raid you want to run, but that poses little challenge due to everyone being well above the quest level (not to mention that it's very difficult to get level-appropriate raid groups together for raids well below the level cap).

Think about most of the raids we have, and what the questing behavior is like: maybe you run Reaver once or twice when you're in the 14-16 range, 3 or 4 times if you're kind of slow leveling or a double TR, Titan and DQ get run maybe once each while in the appropriate level range. Ditto for VoN. The Shroud gets run a little more in the intended range, simply because it is such a significant stopping point for everyone, but most characters are running in 17-20 groups and totally obliterating the thing, because it's a cakewalk.

By spacing out the level ranges for the raid, the quest is ensured to continue to be both relevant and challenging as people level through other content. As a raid, it necessarily encourages a considerable degree of repetition, so keeping it at least somewhat fresh is important. Also, and I really like this inclusion on Sirgog's part, the fact that the loot scales with the level/difficulty, and lower level gear contributes to higher level, while the higher level versions of the raid don't force players to head back to the lower levels in order to gain something they missed.

Honestly, I'd like to see all of the raids scaled like this, so that there is something in between running VoN for XP until level 13, and then running it on epic at level 20, for example. Similarly, I'd like Shroud Hard and Elite to get scaled in some way for there to be reason to run it.

I strongly agree with this post for all the reasons listed above.

Arraetrikos
12-20-2010, 11:02 AM
That would definitely be an awesome raid to do, and also VERY hard. One issue I would like to bring up is that there is only Leather and Full Plate as Green Scale armour. There should be a Full Plate, Medium (Breastplate or something) Leather, docent and robe for each, possibly even outfit covered in scales or something for other classes. I love the thought of having evil and normal scales tho. They should be different shades of green. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

/signed AWESOME!!!!

Shanadeus
12-20-2010, 11:11 AM
Great idea but I have a minor complaint:

"Optionals:
Slay Nythaxator, Vilgratha's fiendish ally: This requires the party to kill the Pit Fiend before killing Vilgratha. Awards an extra chest with a chance at Devil Scales (small, medium and large).
Provoke Vilgratha into a murderous rage by slaying her young: This requires the party to kill Vilgratha's wyrmling outright at the beginning of the fight. If they do so, the entire fight is different (see below).
Slay Glattrack the Glabrezu: Only possible if the party provokes Vilgratha."

You shouldn't have to do something evil such as not sparing a youngling in order to reap the best reward.

Xilraazz
12-20-2010, 12:58 PM
+1
I think this sounds like a lot of fun and the loot looks cool too!

hityawithastick
12-20-2010, 01:32 PM
This is the most awesome quest that's never been made ever.

Devs, take a look at this. Give this guy a cookie. You made some awesome stuff U7/U8, let's keep it coming!

To translate:

I would pay TP for this raid.

Also...unrelated point...

Can we get some metallic dragons? Dragon teamwork? This is Eberron, not Faerun--the Chamber commands hundreds of dragons of every color and consistency. :D

Ziindarax
12-20-2010, 08:34 PM
Great idea but I have a minor complaint:

"Optionals:
Slay Nythaxator, Vilgratha's fiendish ally: This requires the party to kill the Pit Fiend before killing Vilgratha. Awards an extra chest with a chance at Devil Scales (small, medium and large).
Provoke Vilgratha into a murderous rage by slaying her young: This requires the party to kill Vilgratha's wyrmling outright at the beginning of the fight. If they do so, the entire fight is different (see below).
Slay Glattrack the Glabrezu: Only possible if the party provokes Vilgratha."

You shouldn't have to do something evil such as not sparing a youngling in order to reap the best reward.

True, and I think alternatives should exist (such as electing to take Vilgratha's eggs and turn them over to the Agents of Argonnessen for safe keeping so that they do not share in Vilgratha's corruption) , but note that in this game, characters of all classes (yes, even Paladins and Monks) can do and say evil/chaotic things and not suffer a penalty for it.

One of the quests for the Silver Flame is given out by (what I interpret to be a corrupt) priest/interrogator who tells you to go into the sewers and execute a bunch of homeless people, and the two Clerics of the Sovereign Host who are trying to help them, for "heresies against the Church of the Silver Flame". At the end of one of the quests in the Sharn Syndicate pack, all characters (including monk and paladin characters, who are supposed to respect the law) are able to blackmail one of the NPC's, accepting a reward in exchange for their silence (paladins and monks shouldn't be allowed to do that, or at least, they should be given the option of turning that NPC in). That said, I highly doubt killing all of a dragon's young would be considered evil by this game's standards.

sirgog
12-21-2010, 04:12 AM
That would definitely be an awesome raid to do, and also VERY hard. One issue I would like to bring up is that there is only Leather and Full Plate as Green Scale armour. There should be a Full Plate, Medium (Breastplate or something) Leather, docent and robe for each, possibly even outfit covered in scales or something for other classes. I love the thought of having evil and normal scales tho. They should be different shades of green. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

/signed AWESOME!!!!

The intention was that the classes that miss out (such as rogues) might find themselves trading their Green Scales for the Tainted versions. (I mentioned a tanking-oriented fullplate, a melee DPS oriented breastplate, a healing-oriented breastplate and some robes)

As for the good/evil RP aspects, a Paladin could justify slaying the green dragon whelp - they are inherently (although in Eberron, not unredeemably) evil creatures, and it's not helpless - it's doing its best to kill the Paladin the whole time.

Fafnir
12-29-2010, 07:19 PM
Nice ideas.

Kasbark
12-30-2010, 04:21 AM
Very well thought out and presented idea! This sounds like a very interresting/fresh raid.


+1



If turbine implements this you deserve a lifetime VIP sub.

Zharfie
12-30-2010, 05:40 AM
Sound great, I'm always up for actual *challenges* in the game, I honestly don't think every raid should be trivially completed on anything except maybe normal and even then with some difficulty!

But where would this raid take place? amrath field is level 16+ area :(


Sounds like fun. But you can't have the dragon casting trap the soul on epic, because eventually players will roll a 1, and dying in the raid when there is nothing you can do about it is not fun.

At least have some kind of item you can loot (like boots of anchoring) that prevents the spell - alternatively have an area on the map or a space like 'the soul guard crystal that the Twelve have placed' where you can stand that prevents trap the soul from being cast, and then have a visible windup to the spell being cast ('everyone run to the soul guard crystal!!!')

Garth

I hate how everything in the game is avoidable with some buffs or items... or natural immunities.
This feature makes it more interesting but I do agree that the second alternative you described might be interesting!


Min II is Min II because it is an (almost universal) DR buster. Stop hating.

(way off topic)
Granted, I don't have to use my min2, but I honestly think that the game is way too focused on three weapons (maybe some others too but mainly these): min2, lit2, esos... every weapon should have benefits and drawbacks that would make the people weigh them and decide which weapon is the best for their use.

Blank_Zero
12-31-2010, 04:01 PM
I would love to see *Skimmed by a Dev* here

jillie
12-31-2010, 06:56 PM
Wonderful ideas, Sirgog. I'd give you +1, but I have to spread more around before I can hit you again :( however, /signed


(way off topic)
Granted, I don't have to use my min2, but I honestly think that the game is way too focused on three weapons (maybe some others too but mainly these): min2, lit2, esos... every weapon should have benefits and drawbacks that would make the people weigh them and decide which weapon is the best for their use.

Check out the Epic Time Blade ... my formerly capped former pally found that equipping it with a lit II in her other hand was very effective!

sirgog
01-06-2011, 08:37 PM
Just did a balance pass on the various items. Some were hit by the nerfbat, fairly hard. Others got a buff or two.




Sound great, I'm always up for actual *challenges* in the game, I honestly don't think every raid should be trivially completed on anything except maybe normal and even then with some difficulty!

I'm fine with Normal being very beatable - I want to see a bigger increase from Normal to Hard, and Hard to Elite, in both risks and rewards. Think VOD - easy to PUG on Normal with any twelve people, but never drops tomes and almost never drops Glacial Bracers. Hard it's PUGable being mildly picky, and drops tomes and sometimes the bracers. Elite it's almost unPUGgable without heavy resources (unless you are doing a run with at least 50% powergamers), but it drops tomes and almost always drops the Bracers.

But where would this raid take place? amrath field is level 16+ area :(

Started by an agent of the Twelve, in the Twelve ward. They teleport you there. Everything is on the Material Plane - the demon and/or devil are brought to our plane by the dragon.


(way off topic)
Granted, I don't have to use my min2, but I honestly think that the game is way too focused on three weapons (maybe some others too but mainly these): min2, lit2, esos... every weapon should have benefits and drawbacks that would make the people weigh them and decide which weapon is the best for their use.

I kept the DR figures low so people can use other weapons they happen to have. Greater Dragon Bane weapons should be pretty good here. And the current endgame sees quite a lot of different weapons used - for example I've seen Epic Chronoscope tanks use Acid Handwraps of Greater Evil Outsider Bane with Risia icy burst, Holy Burst and Shocking Burst ToD rings and Red Dragonscale Armor, and IMO that's the 'ultimate' weapon for a tank in that raid. Likewise I see a lot of Epic Antique Greataxes going around, Earthgrab weapons, Radiance 2, Trap the Soul, Freezing Ice - in short, there's a lot of viable weapons at endgame.

CarpeNoctu
01-10-2011, 09:51 AM
Great idea... I'd love to run this, myself...

Personally, I'm hoping for an epic slayer area, too... Just because it would be fun :)

Daggaz
01-10-2011, 10:27 AM
Well I was gonna save my 500th post for something special, so I guess posting in an epic thread counts!

AWESOME raid idea, Sirgog. Signed and notarized, in triplicate. Corporate had better get their hands out from under their seat and type you up an job offer.

Really like the green dragons and the added mechanics. This game desperately needs more tactics and forced thinking by the players. Poohpooh on everybody who nixed ANYTHING because it would be "too hard".. Get soultrapped in battle? Better get a true ress (and just be glad the spell doesnt follow PnP rules).

Extra ideas:

Epic Poison on elite and epic difficulties.. the gas cloud should definitely have this added effect. Players can not have any immunity to it, but instead require a spell or potion of normal neutralize poison to remove the extra damage.

The gas cloud on all difficulties should have a rust monster like effect for warforged.

The troglodytes: make sure some of them are hiding (more on harder difficulties) and put some kind of time limit as to hunting them down and slaying them.. eventually the wyrmling should catch the scent of the party and initiate a fight itself.

Terrain: Green dragons live in swamps.. make sure there is shallow water and other annoying obstacles (logs etc) which could also be used to clever advantage by the players if they are careful. Perhaps give the dragon the ability to alter the terrain (flooding or changing the island/water pattern) during the battle by magical means (or earth stomping).

die
01-10-2011, 12:36 PM
+1 nice work sir

Taurnish
01-10-2011, 01:24 PM
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts and think this would make a great raid! I hope some DEVS look over this thread. Very well thought out storyline. Cheers to you Sirgog!

sirgog
01-26-2011, 08:38 AM
Whoops - forgot info about XP. Added that in. Normal doesn't offer much XP, but hard and elite do.

sirgog
01-31-2011, 10:11 PM
Revisited difficulty, and put in explicit info on how I think Vilgratha's attack speed should be tuned. She now attacks faster, for less damage.

weyoun
01-31-2011, 10:56 PM
8. Suggestion - Lose the lingering acid cloud effect. This is not common of most breath weapons, and certainly a Wyrmling would possess no such ability. Ever for the boss dragon, it seems unlikely and unnecessary, given the other combat abilities available.

AOE DoTs are sadly lacking in DDO. I'd like to see and increasing DoT so that the longer it takes to kill her, the more acid she pumps into the room/area so the longer you take to drop her the harder she hits you (steadily increasing and sustained amount of damage over time). The DoT builds and folks start dropping off. Also would like to see a wing buffet that knocks the party away from her and slows the melees trying to get back to her - maybe they have to swim across chest high water to get back to her. Combine that with an intermittent large AoE one shot or stun from the devil and you've got a nice little wipe factory going.

pSINNa
01-31-2011, 11:20 PM
Nice timing on this necro, and once again i have to say great work by the OP.

I really do hope a dev somewhere has had a good look at this (update 9/10 hint hint).

Coit out~

sirgog
02-23-2011, 05:22 AM
AOE DoTs are sadly lacking in DDO. I'd like to see and increasing DoT so that the longer it takes to kill her, the more acid she pumps into the room/area so the longer you take to drop her the harder she hits you (steadily increasing and sustained amount of damage over time). The DoT builds and folks start dropping off. Also would like to see a wing buffet that knocks the party away from her and slows the melees trying to get back to her - maybe they have to swim across chest high water to get back to her. Combine that with an intermittent large AoE one shot or stun from the devil and you've got a nice little wipe factory going.

Are you talking about having the DoT scale up over time (so standing in acid on a particular difficulty might do 20d6 damage per 2 sec for the first minute of the encounter, then 22d6 in the second minute, 24d6 in the third etc)? Or are you talking about making the acid clouds permanent, so that you start running out of room to fight her? The latter sortof happens in Shroud part 5 with the escalating number of blades over time, but most people kill Harry so fast that you don't see the blades at all below Elite.

I think both would be great ideas for future encounters and content, but I'd also rather see encounters get slowly more complex rather than just jump straight to the insane levels of something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jee971qfSMQ (it's the hard mode of a no-longer endgame boss from World of Warcraft that is one of the most insanely complex encounters ever).

AylinIsAwesome
02-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Pretty cool!

I'd love to see this raid make it into the game.

However, the loss of the chest from provoking the dragon into a rage I dislike. Letting us get all the chests if we kill the demon before the devil arrives though would suite me fine.

sirgog
03-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Pretty cool!

I'd love to see this raid make it into the game.

However, the loss of the chest from provoking the dragon into a rage I dislike. Letting us get all the chests if we kill the demon before the devil arrives though would suite me fine.

The more I think about it from a storyline point of view, I can't really see a Devil supporting a dragon that has freed a mighty Demon that was bound.

Gate is a Lawful spell if used to summon an LE outsider (IIRC), and while a green dragon is almost always LE in Eberron, one that has received such a powerful demonic boon probably changes to Chaotic Evil alignment. It's been a looooong time since I played a high-level pen and paper campaign and so I can't remember if a chaotic creature can cast Gate when it is a lawful spell.

doubledge
03-09-2011, 04:58 PM
did i /sign this yet? if not, /signed

SynalonEtuul
03-10-2011, 03:05 AM
I love it! I also like the use of trap the soul - getting around deathward seems like a good idea to me ^_^

I didn't read the 100s of posts between here and the first page, but what did you decide casters would do in here? They don't seem to be too busy

sirgog
03-10-2011, 03:17 AM
I love it! I also like the use of trap the soul - getting around deathward seems like a good idea to me ^_^

I didn't read the 100s of posts between here and the first page, but what did you decide casters would do in here? They don't seem to be too busy

If you have one caster - CK and Firewall on the dragon, CK and Icestorm on whichever Fiend you choose to fight, exhaust both bosses, (mass) Protection from Elements during the windup to a dragon breath, Cyclonic Blast to erase hostile persistent AoE spells like Firewall (not sure if that should work on the breath, testing would determine whether that makes dealing with it too easy), and keeping up permanent Displacement on the tank (I meant to give the dragons Blind-fight, which is a toned-down True Seeing allowing them to take the better of two rolls for concealment rolls, making Displacement a 25% miss chance and Blur 4%; the Fiends would both have full True Seeing on Elite and Epic and Blind-fight on Normal and Hard).

Remaining mana can be used nuking and/or repairbotting. Caster nuking should be fine post-U9 unless the Sorc PrE's suck.

If that's not enough to keep casters busy, maybe trash would be a useful addition - perhaps the dragon could be given 'Summon Monster 10 - You summon 3/5/8/12 (n/h/e/ep) random trash mobs each about as tough as the outsider trash in Elite Vale quests; these have pretty high saves but no immunites even on Epic'

Urjak
03-10-2011, 03:37 AM
/signed

since it is in an outdoor area i would love to see:
@75%, 50%, 25% the dragon casts improved invisibility on himself and flies overhead of the party spamming acidblasts and his breath attack, only once the party reduced his hp with ranged attacks by another 5% he lands again. this would require archers and casters in the raid =)

also please add a green dragonscale robe for casters (or alternately a cloak^^)

SynalonEtuul
03-10-2011, 11:50 AM
If you have one caster - CK and Firewall on the dragon, CK and Icestorm on whichever Fiend you choose to fight, exhaust both bosses, (mass) Protection from Elements during the windup to a dragon breath, Cyclonic Blast to erase hostile persistent AoE spells like Firewall (not sure if that should work on the breath, testing would determine whether that makes dealing with it too easy), and keeping up permanent Displacement on the tank (I meant to give the dragons Blind-fight, which is a toned-down True Seeing allowing them to take the better of two rolls for concealment rolls, making Displacement a 25% miss chance and Blur 4%; the Fiends would both have full True Seeing on Elite and Epic and Blind-fight on Normal and Hard).

Remaining mana can be used nuking and/or repairbotting. Caster nuking should be fine post-U9 unless the Sorc PrE's suck.

If that's not enough to keep casters busy, maybe trash would be a useful addition - perhaps the dragon could be given 'Summon Monster 10 - You summon 3/5/8/12 (n/h/e/ep) random trash mobs each about as tough as the outsider trash in Elite Vale quests; these have pretty high saves but no immunites even on Epic'

Oooh! I like that thought for cyclonic blast. More spells being used and useful is always good.

sirgog
03-16-2011, 08:51 PM
/signed

since it is in an outdoor area i would love to see:
@75%, 50%, 25% the dragon casts improved invisibility on himself and flies overhead of the party spamming acidblasts and his breath attack, only once the party reduced his hp with ranged attacks by another 5% he lands again. this would require archers and casters in the raid =)

also please add a green dragonscale robe for casters (or alternately a cloak^^)

Really like the flyover idea, although the breath might need to do less damage while the dragon is in the air (it's not intended to be survivable on Epic for anyone other than a dedicated tank).

It could possibly strafe overhead, spamming its breath attack and leaving large lingering acid clouds on the battlefield that remain until after this phase ends. Everyone (well, everyone that has true seeing...) sees the dragon coming and scatters to get out of the way - then the next time it comes back, they have less and less places to run.

If you can't get that 5% damage in time, you'll run out of places to stand that aren't coated in acid.

Editing OP to add a variant of this suggestion of yours.

Grenada
03-16-2011, 09:52 PM
One quick question: What were you thinking of for ML for the items?

I know from other quests that the named armour is usually 3-4 levels below the quest, while the weapons are usually 1-2 levels below.

However, this is not your usual raid.

hityawithastick
03-16-2011, 09:59 PM
I wonder if it's been read yet. >.>

Still /signed to making this a reality, btw. :cool:

Tom_Hunters
03-17-2011, 12:56 AM
Read the storyline. Very nice one I say! With those optionals and twitches many will be able to enjoy it.

Just one thing. Isn't a green dragon supposed to use poison breath not acid (which is black)?
To make a poison dragon sth worth respecting probably requires some harsh poison abilities, those worse than Harry(instant death without proof against poison, and stacking debuff/debuff not curable by heal spell)

Comments?

sirgog
04-05-2011, 06:48 AM
Read the storyline. Very nice one I say! With those optionals and twitches many will be able to enjoy it.

Just one thing. Isn't a green dragon supposed to use poison breath not acid (which is black)?
To make a poison dragon sth worth respecting probably requires some harsh poison abilities, those worse than Harry(instant death without proof against poison, and stacking debuff/debuff not curable by heal spell)

Comments?

In 4th Ed D&D I believe green dragons are poison-based. 4th Ed poision, IIRC, works mostly as damage-over-time effects, although this could be completely wrong.

In 3.5 (which is what DDO is based on), green dragons, like black dragons, have only one type of breath weapon - acid.

sephiroth1084
04-05-2011, 01:26 PM
In 4th Ed D&D I believe green dragons are poison-based. 4th Ed poision, IIRC, works mostly as damage-over-time effects, although this could be completely wrong.

In 3.5 (which is what DDO is based on), green dragons, like black dragons, have only one type of breath weapon - acid.
One of the things I did really like about 4E (and there weren't many) was their greater differentiation between one dragon and the next.

sirgog
05-12-2011, 10:16 PM
Just revised this (mostly the second post) due to the barter box becoming more widespread, and due to the Brigand's Cutlass being so similar to my Stormblade, I redesigned that item a little.

Given the enhanced 'damage at range' capabilities arcanes (particularly Sorcs) got in U9, I think it could be safe to increase the damage threshold required to end the overhead phases - maybe to 6% of Vilgratha's HP. For an Air Savant, doing 6% (33000 damage) is just a matter of sustaining a 3-stack of Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge for 70 seconds.

Adding a threat wipe after the overhead phases too.

sephiroth1084
06-12-2011, 05:51 PM
Still dislike that some items drop only from one ending of the raid or the other, as that could likely lead to some players having a great deal of difficulty finding groups for one form of completion due to a lack of interest, similarly to how difficult it was, for a time, to get healers for VoD because the raid was challenging, resource-intensive and offered absolutely nothing in terms of gear for most healers.

I think that, in this case, the loot is spread around enough that it's not likely to become as prevalent as was the case for the VoD example, but I think a different loot mechanic should be considered.

Maybe everything can drop at the end, but the items tied to either the devil or the demon could have a higher drop-rate in completions where their respective bosses had been felled?

I just really don't want to end up heading into one of these hoping for an X style completion and then have the group decide to go with Y. Maybe move all of the better special loot to the harder completion chest?

Melt-emi
06-13-2011, 03:49 AM
Just revised this (mostly the second post) due to the barter box becoming more widespread, and due to the Brigand's Cutlass being so similar to my Stormblade, I redesigned that item a little.

Given the enhanced 'damage at range' capabilities arcanes (particularly Sorcs) got in U9, I think it could be safe to increase the damage threshold required to end the overhead phases - maybe to 6% of Vilgratha's HP. For an Air Savant, doing 6% (33000 damage) is just a matter of sustaining a 3-stack of Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge for 70 seconds.

Adding a threat wipe after the overhead phases too.

Awesome job there, +1 :eek:

Also, i suggest to rename "Greater Caustic Strike" to "Eternal Acid" (it recalls Eternal Fire on Epic Red Armors) and consider to make it proc on both hands.

karnokvolrath
06-17-2011, 01:38 AM
I like this alot, green dragon just sounds awesome.

I also like your recent obbsession with glabrezu with this and your ideas on The Binding Light.

For anyone that doesnt know glabrezu are extremely powerful deamons that have four arms, pincer like claws and huge teath filled maws. Not to mention there giant sized telepathic and on the same level as succubus when it comes to manipulation.

A.k.a. Something fun to demolish.

Indoran
06-18-2011, 02:35 AM
just read the raid and loot part... good ideas I like it!... can we have it devs??? maybe for the first or second quarters 2012??

Ssdprref
01-17-2012, 02:27 AM
Any chance of having another +7 Wisdom Item, Even a weapon.