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Therigar
08-22-2010, 09:37 PM
Tempest Spine group looking for rogue. I send tell "I'll be your rogue." Get back, "What level?" I hit join. Get back, "Oh, too low."

I'm a Wizard 8/Rogue 2 with unboosted (items only) 26 Search & 28 Disable Device, running with Heroism, a wand of Fox's Cunning (only have +2 INT item atm) and +5 tools for a L10 quest (L12 elite). Did I fail to mention that I've run the quest hundreds of times and know where all the traps are located?

Stupid people who don't have a clue about characters or their abilities. It really ****es me off. :mad:

Edit: Fixed typo.

donfilibuster
08-22-2010, 10:31 PM
Since it is indeed common, much time is saved by telling the group leader that u know u can disable the traps on elite right from the begginning.
Likewise the group leader can save everyone's time by stating so beforehand.

Bloodstealer
08-22-2010, 10:43 PM
Since it is indeed common, much time is saved by telling the group leader that u know u can disable the traps on elite right from the begginning.
Likewise the group leader can save everyone's time by stating so beforehand.

Hmm I really dont think it would of made a difference, the said leader obviously had no idea and most likely had a vision in his or here head that a pure lvl 10 rogue was the only option..... except many of those I ve come across genuinely wouldnt know where the boxes were, or in some cases not even know how to search for them :D

issiana
08-23-2010, 04:29 AM
I gave up on my beloved 1 rogue rest ranger builds a while back as noone seemed to understand that 1 rogue was all you needed (that and half aclue on how to actually do traps, lol)

that said I've also being a big fan of pure rogues but the old servers have all but ignored them nowdays. perhaps orien may be the palce to finally allow pure classes to shine.

Therigar
08-23-2010, 08:38 AM
If a group is looking for a trap monkey then there is no reason to look for a pure class rogue. With starting INT typically in the 12-14 range no pure class rogue can compete in search or disable device with a wizard that has splashed rogue.

Pure class rogues are good for one thing -- damage. Not DPS per se because their damage comes from backstabbing. But, when the target is not immune to backstab and when the rogue does not have the aggression there is no class that does more potential damage on an attack.

When looking for a trap monkey a ranger x/rogue 1 or wizard x/rogue 2 is almost certainly as capable as a pure class rogue. In the case of a wizard/rogue there is no question that they are as capable -- the question is, what rogue will be better?

And, if you built a rogue to be better then what other value would it bring to the group? It is important to remember that there is only one trap in the game that requires such a high level of skill to either find or disarm. Considering it is on a chest that contains only standard loot it really isn't worthwhile to build a rogue for that purpose.

Splashed rogue levels on paladins or barbarians is almost always for evasion. On rangers and wizards it is almost always for disabling traps. Not knowing that, and refusing to let a character into the group as a result, demonstrates ignorance.

Bloodstealer
08-23-2010, 10:42 AM
If a group is looking for a trap monkey then there is no reason to look for a pure class rogue. With starting INT typically in the 12-14 range no pure class rogue can compete in search or disable device with a wizard that has splashed rogue.

Pure class rogues are good for one thing -- damage. Not DPS per se because their damage comes from backstabbing. But, when the target is not immune to backstab and when the rogue does not have the aggression there is no class that does more potential damage on an attack.

When looking for a trap monkey a ranger x/rogue 1 or wizard x/rogue 2 is almost certainly as capable as a pure class rogue. In the case of a wizard/rogue there is no question that they are as capable -- the question is, what rogue will be better?

And, if you built a rogue to be better then what other value would it bring to the group? It is important to remember that there is only one trap in the game that requires such a high level of skill to either find or disarm. Considering it is on a chest that contains only standard loot it really isn't worthwhile to build a rogue for that purpose.

Splashed rogue levels on paladins or barbarians is almost always for evasion. On rangers and wizards it is almost always for disabling traps. Not knowing that, and refusing to let a character into the group as a result, demonstrates ignorance.

Not so sure on the rogue / ranger builds - I see more of them being average DPS and average trapmonkey - fine at low to middle levels but high level content and EPIC i see issues ahead cos your placing points in too many stats and skills to be effective, but thats just me and what i have seen over the years. Personally I wouldnt build any kind of trappy rogue with INT less than 16 anyhow - those that do are perhaps shortsighted in the build but its not my specialist class so I cud be way off here.

However the Wiz /Rogue I definatley agree and its a favorite of mine - if players cant see the potential of that toon build for either function then like you say they are ignorant to how toon builds can best be utilises in a grp.

On a side note tho - I fear the writing is on the wall for the rogue in this game as far as pure trapmonkey goes - the content coming through requires very little need for them and what is there can either be avoided, traps tunrned off by speaking to mobs, or set off cos its one hit, or a poorly constructed multiclass can do the job in most cases cos the search / DD is so low for the trap level - Thats of course if the content has traps.
Locked doors and chests are now completelty bypassable by the riduculous DDO store items so where does the pure trapmonkey fit in...
The measure of a well built trap monkey was the Cabal trapped chest.. but like you also say - is it really worth all the hassle now.

Therigar
08-23-2010, 11:00 AM
Not so sure on the rogue / ranger builds - I see more of them being average DPS and average trapmonkey - fine at low to middle levels but high level content and EPIC i see issues ahead cos your placing points in too many stats and skills to be effective, but thats just me and what i have seen over the years. Personally I wouldnt build any kind of trappy rogue with INT less than 16 anyhow - those that do are perhaps shortsighted in the build but its not my specialist class so I cud be way off here.

However the Wiz /Rogue I definatley agree and its a favorite of mine - if players cant see the potential of that toon build for either function then like you say they are ignorant to how toon builds can best be utilises in a grp.

On a side note tho - I fear the writing is on the wall for the rogue in this game as far as pure trapmonkey goes - the content coming through requires very little need for them and what is there can either be avoided, traps tunrned off by speaking to mobs, or set off cos its one hit, or a poorly constructed multiclass can do the job in most cases cos the search / DD is so low for the trap level - Thats of course if the content has traps.
Locked doors and chests are now completelty bypassable by the riduculous DDO store items so where does the pure trapmonkey fit in...
The measure of a well built trap monkey was the Cabal trapped chest.. but like you also say - is it really worth all the hassle now.

Your last bits are why ranger x/rogue 1 is acceptable for a trap monkey. Other than the Cabal chest on elite every trap is easily found and disarmed by a 12-14 base INT with gear and boosts. Rangers get their own boost to all skills so do not need the rogue skill boost (same, BTW, for human wizards if they really want to go that route).

Wizards compensate by having higher base INT and, of course, by pouring all their stat increases into INT. So, for pure trap monkey either ranger/rogue or wizard/rogue is the way to go.

The demise of rogues has been a thread on these forums for as long as I've been in the game. I will note, once more, that the real benefit of a rogue is their damage output. So long as the mob is not immune to backstabs nothing compares. Max STR, grab the TWF line with just enough DEX to qualify it, all else in CON. Ignore traps and locked doors/chests. Splash a level of ranger for bow strength and favored enemy or a level of monk for an extra feat and potential for upper limits AC or fighter for the extra feat (spent on khopesh). Then go kill stuff. That is the direction rogues should be headed in DDO considering the content.

LordMond
08-23-2010, 07:01 PM
The problem encountered by the OP is one that has been around as long as there have been MMOs that allowed players to be something other than cookie-cutter builds: party leaders who are unwilling or incapable of thinking outside the box. If your character does not neatly comport with whatever that leader is looking for, chances are pretty high that you'll get /declined and no amount of 'splaining to him is likely to do any good whatsoever.

Just take solace from the fact that it's their loss. Instead of taking you and getting on with the quest, they probably sat around waiting for that 'perfect' character to come along....and, during the wait, got no xp and got no loot.

unscythe
08-23-2010, 08:33 PM
Players are inexperienced, its like 90% new players and 10% experienced players on the server at best.


Alot of new players do not experiment either. The first month for me was playing with a pure fighter, and when I got bored, it was time to experiment. I splashed rogue and rolled up pure rogues. The rogue class was fun, and had something other classes did not, so it was fun and different.


IMHO that player declining the OP, saved you an hour+ in slow questing/headaches.

Pugs do not believe that Tempest Spine can be done in under 30 minutes. Myself and some of my friends ran through TS in 23 minutes on elite, while looting. Not a great accomplishment, but that means that we could of ran it twice on elite in the time it would take them to run the quest once.

Pugging is abismal here, if I pug I expect to take a bit of time. If I put up a group for zerging I expect a time between fast and slow(pugging).

Might be easier to start your own party or solo for the most part.

amnota
08-23-2010, 08:39 PM
There are trap boxes in Tempest Spine??? Who knew?

Crazyfruit
08-23-2010, 08:56 PM
Well, most people wouldn't know you can disable traps as a non-full rogue unless they tried one themselves. Sometimes you gotta be the person to tell/show them :)

The latest Kwiz ran into this a lot, but not my other rogue splashes before. Kinda odd

There's a lot of systems & details in DDO - can't expect people to know everything. I wouldn't be surprised if most people think firewall is a caster's only damage spell these days.

Therigar
08-23-2010, 11:28 PM
There are trap boxes in Tempest Spine??? Who knew?

:D You can easily avoid any and all need to disable traps by pulling mobs into the traps themselves. The mobs turn the traps off and you can go about your business without ever taking damage.

Most fun is the fire protected lever.

The only other remotely problematic trap is the acid/poison combo. Usually a WF can run up the poison side to pull switches w/o a problem.

Use to be that the locked doors was the main reason for a rogue. But it is too easy to open locked doors now days.

NaturalHazard
08-24-2010, 05:42 AM
When i was playing the lower levels i lost count the ammount of times I had to argue with party leaders than you could still max out a skill as long as you had a class that had it as a class skill. I didnt even have a charactor with a rogue level and I knew that and I was (still am a new player 2). This happened on khyber and I think that its a problem on every server, its kinda unfair to say this is why orien sucks. People who dont know better but think they do. Like the ones that tell me I should be using a bow 24/7 cause your a ranger, or why are you using two weapons? you know you need a feat or you take a penalty to hit? Um cant you see the ranger icon with my name on it?

Crann
08-24-2010, 10:03 AM
Your first hint should have been "TS group looking for rogue."

Then you should have been happy you were declined and moved on, knowing you avoided a bad pug.
This is what is great about Orien, the LFM's make the bad pugs easy to spot.

Here are a few more to avoid that you find alot in the LFM's on Orien:

Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a player level range 3 levels higher than the quest.
Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a 5 level range of players
Any LFM for a quest for "favor only" that has a cap lower than 20.

I'm still having a great time pugging on Orien. I get what I expect, knowing that it is a less experienced population overall.

Occasionally you have a bad one, you move on and find good ones.

flynnjsw
08-24-2010, 10:08 AM
Tempest Spine group looking for rogue. I send tell "I'll be your rogue." Get back, "What level?" I hit join. Get back, "Oh, too low."

I'm a Wizard 8/Rogue 2 with unboosted (items only) 26 Search & 28 Disable Device, running with Heroism, a wand of Fox's Cunning (only have +2 INT item atm) and +6 tools for a L10 quest (L12 elite). Did I fail to mention that I've run the quest hundreds of times and know where all the traps are located?

Stupid people who don't have a clue about characters or their abilities. It really ****es me off. :mad:

Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.

Therigar
08-24-2010, 01:36 PM
Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.

I invented them. :D

You are right, should read +5.... :o

ogee11
08-24-2010, 07:49 PM
Maybe it is a typo, and certainly not a major issue, but where did you find +6 tools? The highest I have seen is +5. Not that the extra 1 is going to make a huge difference.

+1 tools actually give +3 skill
+2 tools actually give +4 skill

so a +4 tool gives +6 skill

LordMond
08-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Personally I found plenty of +6 Tools playing WoW.........

Bloodstealer
08-25-2010, 04:03 AM
Your first hint should have been "TS group looking for rogue."

Then you should have been happy you were declined and moved on, knowing you avoided a bad pug.
This is what is great about Orien, the LFM's make the bad pugs easy to spot.

Here are a few more to avoid that you find alot in the LFM's on Orien:

Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a player level range 3 levels higher than the quest.
Any LFM for a quest being run for xp that has a 5 level range of players
Any LFM for a quest for "favor only" that has a cap lower than 20.

I'm still having a great time pugging on Orien. I get what I expect, knowing that it is a less experienced population overall.

Occasionally you have a bad one, you move on and find good ones.

TBH - I dont really see it as an issue. Sure the PUG leader was most likely a little shy on experience, but may also of been a TR trying to squeeze that last drop of XP out of the quest but at the same time still being relatively inexperienced around how toons can be utilised outside of the pure cookie cutter builds.

Still I actually think its not a bad thing that noobs, newbs etc put up LFM pugs cos it shows they are willing to step out of their comfort zone and try out something - which can only benefit them and us in the long run.

The learning curves are steep in DDO so taking yourself away from the safety of an experienced group, where tbh you tend to just follow the crowd and then get pinged for making a silly error or called out for piking, shows a little bit of initiative on their part sometimes. But as I said previous I agree it most likely saved the OP from either a poor run or just a long (poor :) ) run but maybe we just need to look down the LFM's a bit more or put our own up... PUGS are PUGS and always will be, so expect the worse but try to enjoy it for what it is.. a game.

Bloodstealer
08-25-2010, 04:07 AM
Personally I found plenty of +6 Tools playing WoW.........

Well all I found was a lot of TOOLS, in WOW :D

LordMond
08-25-2010, 08:11 PM
Well all I found was a lot of TOOLS, in WOW :D

I'm thinking we're on the same page here......

Now whether or not that's a good thing....and for whom....I'm not certain.

WestportStan
08-26-2010, 10:28 AM
I ran with a cleric/ rouge in Monastery the other day. When our healer bent down to disable those traps and succeed, it blew my mind.

Bloodstealer
08-27-2010, 11:36 AM
I ran with a cleric/ rouge in Monastery the other day. When our healer bent down to disable those traps and succeed, it blew my mind.

Eeew well that will teach you to stare where you should'nt be staring - them clerics dont change their underwear to often I hear :)

unscythe
08-27-2010, 11:43 AM
I ran with a cleric/ rouge in Monastery the other day. When our healer bent down to disable those traps and succeed, it blew my mind.

I made an abomination cleric/rogue, couldnt kill a thing, had less sp due to splash, but I was able to disarm level 7 traps at level 3.

Doganpc
08-27-2010, 12:59 PM
I just wanted to point out that this isn't just an Orien issue.

I run a Rogue/Monk (double evasion... what you mean that don't work?) that looks monk at the moment due to the 3/4 split (building a drow ninja spy/assassin). I'll join a party and the leader will be looking for a rogue still. Like he didn't see the 3 levels of Rogue when I requested to join... I'm still a little trap shy on elite content since I don't have the +7 gear yet (AH has been unkind) and don't want to get a reputation for blowing boxes.

Dogan
Come on baby... don't fear the pit.

crazy7381
08-27-2010, 07:13 PM
Im fairly new (3 months in) I like my toons pure so far im planning on pure every class then maybe later splashing in multiclass so i can experience true potential for what the class is worth. (pure rogue). I see the cross classes and sure i have zeal but it doesnt deter me from achieve my goal right now of a bad a.. level 20 rogue. just my 2 cents and grammar errors. might sound like im rambling sorry at work and exhausted.

Quazicotl
Revelation Fighters

little_bear
08-28-2010, 11:48 PM
I know the feeling. My 7/7 rogue/bard gets no respect and her trap skills are pushing 40. And I have some +7 tools.

Bloodstealer
08-29-2010, 08:26 AM
Im fairly new (3 months in) I like my toons pure so far im planning on pure every class then maybe later splashing in multiclass so i can experience true potential for what the class is worth. (pure rogue). I see the cross classes and sure i have zeal but it doesnt deter me from achieve my goal right now of a bad a.. level 20 rogue. just my 2 cents and grammar errors. might sound like im rambling sorry at work and exhausted.

Quazicotl
Revelation Fighters

I see no issues with you trying out your builds pure,especially as you say your relatively new to the game. I think this will only help you going forward.
When you have found and utilised the different prestige lines in the classes then maybe later you may choose to try a multi-class toon to maybe mix a few of those prestiges a bit - its basically what everyone else has done since day 1 in the game.
However some players like to stick with what they know, others like to push the boundaries that little bit - both can work or not work - a players own playstlye often dictates the latter, not just the build.

The main thing many players forget is that you pay for your own enjoyment, you are able to build toons how you see fit and yes some may work some may not but experimenting is just a good way to learn in this game.

Personally I dont discount any build in my grps, yes I may have an opinion on the build but as its not mine then it means nothing, but if someone asks for a little advice on thier builds I would be happy to help where I can.
Now if I take a rather strange toon into grp say a cleric/ rogue/scorchy (just a guess :) ) and it proves very inferior for the tasks it was recruited for then maybe I will consider whether its right next time for my grp, but I give everyone a stab at it... loosing a bit of bonus isn't that critical to me as I play this for fun and go to work for the serious stuff in life.

Good luck with your game tho

Bloodstealer
08-29-2010, 08:28 AM
I know the feeling. My 7/7 rogue/bard gets no respect and her trap skills are pushing 40. And I have some +7 tools.

Dang I want some of them +7 tools :D

GRUMBLEDUKE
08-30-2010, 06:56 AM
I have a bit of experience playing rogues and much of it is about the gear/equipment you have, tools, items, raid loot, crafted items and even starting with 10 int you can still do Cabal and other traps on Elite just as you can with 1 rogue level. For new players without those items its some what harder but not impossible. Also knowing where the traps and boxes are and what they do can also help you plan your actions, however thats not so say you cant play a 28pt elf rogue with limited experience and equipment and still be a valuable member of a party (there are plenty of people that do the shroud raids and running round at level 20 with starter equipment).

Imo its always a good idea to stay pure if its your first rogue but please dont underestimate the need for health and constitution especialy for an assasain. once you get the hang of it you could then try something more specialised. For myself I do use rogue spashes on my characters but I still make sure they can make full use of the majority of a rogues skills. I had a barbarian with 2 rogue levels once that still had its search and disable in the mid 50's but I would say the wiz/rogue, ranger/rogue have far more synergy. Its helpfull to listen to 'good' advice but its not always a good thing to copy someones build as your playstyle may be very different to theirs.

The bottom line is rogues can be extremly versatile and alot of fun.

Bloodstealer
08-30-2010, 08:00 AM
I have a bit of experience playing rogues and much of it is about the gear/equipment you have, tools, items, raid loot, crafted items and even starting with 10 int you can still do Cabal and other traps on Elite just as you can with 1 rogue level. For new players without those items its some what harder but not impossible. Also knowing where the traps and boxes are and what they do can also help you plan your actions, however thats not so say you cant play a 28pt elf rogue with limited experience and equipment and still be a valuable member of a party (there are plenty of people that do the shroud raids and running round at level 20 with starter equipment).

Imo its always a good idea to stay pure if its your first rogue but please dont underestimate the need for health and constitution especialy for an assasain. once you get the hang of it you could then try something more specialised. For myself I do use rogue spashes on my characters but I still make sure they can make full use of the majority of a rogues skills. I had a barbarian with 2 rogue levels once that still had its search and disable in the mid 50's but I would say the wiz/rogue, ranger/rogue have far more synergy. Its helpfull to listen to 'good' advice but its not always a good thing to copy someones build as your playstyle may be very different to theirs.

The bottom line is rogues can be extremly versatile and alot of fun.

Agree - but I wanna see that 10 Int rogue do cabal on elite and Epic Von stuff - i smell danger tho, so be careful :)

GRUMBLEDUKE
08-30-2010, 08:10 AM
I did cabal on m 10 int WF accrobat but hes been TRed twice since but had to wait untill I could equip my ventilated bracers, +15 search item and DT docent to be able to do it. If I had made him and elf or drow it would have been much easier

But starting with 10 int as a Rogue is not something I would recomend, 14-16 is much safer

are there servers up yet? :)

Phemt81
07-23-2013, 12:03 PM
Noobs get fluffier each year ;)

Loromir
07-23-2013, 12:13 PM
And, if you built a rogue to be better then what other value would it bring to the group? It is important to remember that there is only one trap in the game that requires such a high level of skill to either find or disarm. Considering it is on a chest that contains only standard loot it really isn't worthwhile to build a rogue for that purpose.


I have a guild mate who is just enthralled with his maxed out mechanic. His DD/Search/Spot/Open Lock all hover around 80 or more. Some how he made it to lvl 25 (God knows how??). He has around 300 HP's...8 Str (Not even an Item to boost str) Says he doesn't need str. He rarely fights and tries to find a safe place to stay out of the way of a fight.

But hey...at least he can get us the ingenious debilitation bonus.

Loromir
07-23-2013, 12:15 PM
GRRR...necro!!!!!

katz
07-27-2013, 03:37 PM
aaaaaaand.... 3 year old thread necro... GO!

anyway... seriously. i run lots of rogues and rogue splashes, and pride myself on still being able to perform all the roguish duties, even if not a full rogue... from my wiz-rogue who never blew a trap, to my rogue-splashed ranger, to my 3rd life rogue (first life mechanic, second life assassin, third life acrobat) who just did the elite cabal trap a couple days ago (with a deep monk splash killing my skill points, no less!), to my "bard" with a 2 rogue splash that the only thing i can think of she can't do is the 80something (or is it 90something?) DC locked chest in one of the demonweb quests. yes. she can even disable on EE.

people should be willing and able to accept, especially now 3 years later, that 1-2 levels of rogue or arti should be sufficient for standard trapping duties.

Phemt81
07-27-2013, 07:19 PM
Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaatz

where u beeeeeeen???????

katz
07-28-2013, 12:28 AM
Kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaatz

where u beeeeeeen???????


GW2. got kinda wrapped up in WvW. i'll be trying to balance my time a bit more.

Phemt81
08-04-2013, 07:16 PM
GW2. got kinda wrapped up in WvW. i'll be trying to balance my time a bit more.

gotta call u in skype, i m not even playing since new work... do i have ur skype account name?

Hendrik
08-04-2013, 08:19 PM
There are trap boxes in Tempest Spine??? Who knew?

There's a Tempest Spine?

:p

Icywave
08-29-2013, 01:31 PM
I have a guild mate who is just enthralled with his maxed out mechanic. His DD/Search/Spot/Open Lock all hover around 80 or more. Some how he made it to lvl 25 (God knows how??). He has around 300 HP's...8 Str (Not even an Item to boost str) Says he doesn't need str. He rarely fights and tries to find a safe place to stay out of the way of a fight.

Fail!


But hey...at least he can get us the ingenious debilitation bonus.

Win!

vengfarga
08-29-2013, 09:00 PM
Fail!

Perhaps. but prolly not what that 'gimp' mech is laughing about whilst you do EE cabal without him.