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View Full Version : Low Level Raid Needed!



ArloOne
08-18-2010, 06:44 AM
I love raids. Unfortunatly, some new players will not get to experience a raid until about level 8. A raid is a party of 12 players. Tempest Spine is the first raid a character/player will experience. Tempest Spine is generally run at levels 9-12. It is free to play and absolutly an excellent raid for teaching newer players about raid dynamics and proper group building , as well as leadership for roles of raid group members.

I feel we should have a lower level raid put into the game. A raid for levels 4-7. Something that offers the challenges of Tempest Spine. The puzzles,the runes, timed levers (as in Vons 5), ranged levers, traps..etc etc.

Raiding is a very important aspect of DDO. Let us give newer players a taste of what is to come. A low level teaching platform for raiding. A glimpse of the challenges they will face in later parts of the game. And a way to get some of the new players some cool low level raid gear.

Do you think this is a good idea?
What types of suggestions would you have for a low level raid?
What type of gear would you like to see?

If you feel this is a good idea, sign away so Turbine takes a closer look at the suggestion!

Visty
08-18-2010, 06:47 AM
we dont need a low level raid

there are so many lowlvl quests already, its easy to get fast to lvl8

it will either a quest like faithful departed which noone runs cause other have a better xp/time ratio, or it will be a musthave quest

Consumer
08-18-2010, 06:48 AM
not signed

New players get plenty of unnecessary content, older players get recycled content.

rossiza
08-18-2010, 06:49 AM
not signed

need new content for 14+

stoerm
08-18-2010, 06:51 AM
My experience of PUGging Tempest Spine is people running around like headless chickens, not listening and getting killed by the fire elementals before the most of the group has even entered the quest. I dread to think what it would be like with a level 4 raid.

My probably stupid thought is that at higher levels players are a bit more familiar with the game and capable of playing as a group.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-18-2010, 06:52 AM
Naw, you level out of those ranges too quickly and there is already an excess of content at those levels compared to high levels.

Back when the level cap was 10 it would have made sense, but not now.

ArloOne
08-18-2010, 07:13 AM
Stoerm, I joined one of the worst TS runs yesterday. I tryed my hardest to offer instruction. I even bought a water breathing wand, because someone always is unprepared for the swim. I brought 2 extra Maces of Smiting just in case someone was not equiped for the Marut section. And it was a catastrophic fail!

Chickens running around with their heads cut off, doesn't even come close to what I saw. And so I thought, perhaps a lower level raid would make it easier when people reach TS level stuff, to understand the basics.
My Tr'd pally would have recieved around 12K expereince for that raid yesterday, instead, a loss of some resources and a big fat 0 xp.

Thought something like this would help.

And..I know we desperatly need and deserve some high level content!!! My reasoning for this has nothing to do with that dead horse.

woundweaver
08-18-2010, 07:23 AM
I love raids. Unfortunatly, some new players will not get to experience a raid until about level 8. A raid is a party of 12 players. Tempest Spine is the first raid a character/player will experience. Tempest Spine is generally run at levels 9-12. It is free to play and absolutly an excellent raid for teaching newer players about raid dynamics and proper group building , as well as leadership for roles of raid group members.

I feel we should have a lower level raid put into the game. A raid for levels 4-7. Something that offers the challenges of Tempest Spine. The puzzles,the runes, timed levers (as in Vons 5), ranged levers, traps..etc etc.

Raiding is a very important aspect of DDO. Let us give newer players a taste of what is to come. A low level teaching platform for raiding. A glimpse of the challenges they will face in later parts of the game. And a way to get some of the new players some cool low level raid gear.

Do you think this is a good idea?
What types of suggestions would you have for a low level raid?
What type of gear would you like to see?

If you feel this is a good idea, sign away so Turbine takes a closer look at the suggestion!
be real, OP. you low lvl players been getting all the content for the last few updates. you just got 4 new quests yesterday
but you are gonna ask for more content and a raid. try playing the lack of endgame content and raids. see how long you stay interested then. all we keep seeing is the "new" players, and what they want. the people who have been here for awhile would like a bone or two thrown to them for once, because we sure havent gotten one in a long time
damn, you new players are greedy. you want all the content and the easy button. we just want to play, and a challenge to keep us playing


/not signed a million times
the game does go past lvl 9, you know....

puttster3
08-18-2010, 07:28 AM
If done, it's deadliness should be less like Proof is in the Poison, and more like the shortest part you take in the Deleras chain: talk to Delera.


Just make it a puzzle raid, one that requires teamwork.

gurslak
08-18-2010, 07:33 AM
I'm a relatively new player and I'm going to say NO to this one. As other before me have stated your past these levels far too quickly to make any real use of the rewards and there are enough quess to dowithout adding a raid, plus if it's implemented then it'll effectively negate a whole raft of other content which is already implemented.

I'd rather the devs concentrated on later level/end game raids and content.

ArloOne
08-18-2010, 07:45 AM
To Woundweaver...

Please, don't take this post personally. I have played the game since just after beta was released. I am truly aware of the lack of content for levels 14+. I am aware that low level content is extreme. I and many others have asked for years for more high level content. It just has not happened. Epic..meh...they thought that would be an easy fix for end game players..its not. I understand that we want and need it. The purpose of me posting this was not to beg for more low end content..I wanted to see if many others felt a need to have a place to teach the basics of raiding in a low level enviroment.

It appears this is something no one wants, and that is OK. If you are passionate about suggesting more end game content..make a thread, get some responses and perhaps Turbine will listen this time. They do read posts and try and respond in kind when the forum community positivly supports an idea or concept.

I feel your pain!

Hendrik
08-18-2010, 07:45 AM
I dunno...

A low level raid is something the community has been asking for since, well, launch or shortly after....

I kinda like the idea on that alone. However, there is DIRE need for L14+ and specifically L16+ content.

No matter what they give us, people will complain that they gave it to us, didn't give us enough, or was to little to late.

:mad:

woundweaver
08-18-2010, 08:07 AM
brings me to the question of why would a raid be needed for under lvl 8, anyways? to start with the raids at 8 is a decent lvl, and newfound abilities and feats make it fun
people already get a headstart, and get to roll toons at lvl 4.
is 4 lvls that hard to surpass in a reasonable amount of time? with all that easy, low end content, and a store and casual difficulty if its too hard? quest chains like deleras, co6, tangleroot, a couple stormcleave, and a handful of tear of dhakaans will lvl you to 8 in no time.
people need time to learn the game before they go jumping in raids

rossiza
08-18-2010, 08:40 AM
Newbies at lvl 4 should be worrying about group tactics in a 6 man group,.

12 man is the upgrade and TS is perfectly placed for the 6 to 12 man 'team dynamic learning curve im making up some funny sentence you get the picture'.

TS is also the team dynamic without the flagging and 3 day rule etc etc, take the next step and its DQ which you can do on normal with a not great party.

So I think Turbine nailed it perfectly. Learn to 6 man and do some harder quests. Learn to 12 man. Learn an actual Raid.

Healsavant
08-18-2010, 08:53 AM
Most mid level pugs can't complete TS or von, and the lower the level the less these new players are familiar with game mechanics their roles in a raid etc.....I just TRed a room and am amazed with the low lvl clerics wasting all their mana on nukes while party is during around them, and the caster that steps in a room of 15-20 messed mobs and starts dropping firewalls right in the middle. Sorry /not signed

Zenako
08-18-2010, 09:01 AM
Many players have been asking for a low level raid for years. A number of quests were suggested as starting points. One in particular I recall was using a setting like Irestone Islet where a number of things would have to be done at about the same time, requiring teams of players in multiple locations. Small group tactics, but in lets say 3 or 4 camps at once, so you need to coordinate attacks or effects within a time window. (Not unlike the Fire and Ice scenario in TS.)

Could also use a simple flagging method, to gain entrance to it. Need to complete quests X (Kobold's New Ringleader), Y (Freshen the Air) and Z (?) for examples. You get a reward token from the final chest in each and give all three tokens to the guy at the gate to the raid quest for a one time entrance check. Once you get stamped OK, you are good to go forever. They could pick some underused quests for the above flaggin quests perhaps, ones that are mainly panned for poor rewards and make this one of the rewards.

When you move about town, one sees a LOT of lower level characters and I presume a lot of those are the ones to appease.


On a completely unrelated game / scenario design comment. Making a quest that is challenging and interesting for lower level characters is a LOT easier than making one that works for capped characters. I KNOW this was clearly true in PnP D&D, and firmly beleive that to still be true in DDO. The shear number of variables one has to account for in high level encounters make those quests hard to make, or to make well. I would venture to say that not many players consider the 18th level quest in the Marketplace well made. It is basically a half hour beatdown of mobs coming out of 3 portals. Churning out "high level" quests like that, serves no one well. (Granted this is a rather special case of a 3 in 1 quest, spanning levels 6,12 and 18 instead of the normal hard and elite settings with minor bumps.

amnota
08-18-2010, 09:08 AM
Well maybe..and that is a highly qualified MAYBE...a low level raid would allow newer player to learn to interact in larger groups at an early level and POSSIBLY help them down the road in higher level quests. So a low level raid MIGHT have some value...maybe...possibly....sort of.......

GoldyGopher
08-18-2010, 09:09 AM
In beta Irestone Inlet WAS a raid, and it problems highlighted why a low level raid probably will not be forthcoming.

The problem is that with a Low Level Raid to make it accessible to the masses you will make it completable by smaller parties. As was the case in Irestone two to three people did all the work and 9 or 10 people tagged along.

ArloOne
08-18-2010, 09:24 AM
To GoldyGopher...

I do remember Irestone Inlet. And yes, most 2-4 person parties could handle it. Not unlike the raids currently in game. Even VON 5 can be short manned. Ever solo Reavers Fate? I know I have...alot. That is a raid, and probably one of the most run raids other than Shroud and DQ. I feel like Turbine nailed it with the VON series.
Sure you can get flagged solo or short manned. But, you certainly cannot complete VON 5 without at least 4 people with appropriate stats and skills. And doing that at level is very challenging. If you have a full party. Nicely balanced. the raid is always fun and slightly challenging at level.

Zenako
08-18-2010, 11:26 AM
In beta Irestone Inlet WAS a raid, and it problems highlighted why a low level raid probably will not be forthcoming.

The problem is that with a Low Level Raid to make it accessible to the masses you will make it completable by smaller parties. As was the case in Irestone two to three people did all the work and 9 or 10 people tagged along.

Were the problems specific to that implementation or something you saw about the dynamics of dozen person low level parties? If it was just the implementation then that can be addressed, but if it was more a core player issue then that needs to be identified and ways to deal with it developed.

I never got to see it in beta personally.

SINIBYTE
08-18-2010, 11:30 AM
The answer would be a scaled dungeon. :) Like Devil assault... n/h/e with significant level disparities.

Angelus_dead
08-18-2010, 11:43 AM
Tempest Spine is generally run at levels 9-12. It is free to play and absolutly an excellent raid for teaching newer players about raid dynamics and proper group building , as well as leadership for roles of raid group members.
Actually Tempest Spine is negative training for raid dynamics, because it's a Raid In Name Only. It does not share the traits of raids, and has the gameplay of a double-wide dungeon.

Double-wide dungeons are not as fun as regular six-player dungeons, so you shouldn't expect to see more of them.


If you feel this is a good idea, sign away so Turbine takes a closer look at the suggestion!
They did take a close look at it.

Back when it was relevant.

In a way, I wish Turbine would release a low-level raid, just as an educational demonstration of why low-level raids work poorly.

Zenako
08-18-2010, 11:48 AM
Double-wide dungeons are not as fun for meas regular six-player dungeons, so you shouldn't expect to see more of them.


Fixed it.

Frankly for me and many I know, we had some of our best and most enjoyable or memorable runs in Tempest Spine. It was a staple of gameplay and enjoyed by lots of players.

Angelus_dead
08-18-2010, 11:58 AM
Were the problems specific to that implementation or something you saw about the dynamics of dozen person low level parties?
It's a problem with raids made for characters who are not top level (capped or nearly there). This is why Turbine has never released a DDO raid at below the level cap, and also why MMORPGs in general make raids something for high level characters.

The easiest way to observe the problem is to look at what happens to the gameplay of raids when they fall well below the level cap: they get much less challenging and fun, because they come to be dominated by characters who are overpowered for the content. Look at what happens in a Titan/Reaver run, or a non-epic Velah/Laliat run: the fighting is almost pathetically easy, as the risk and difficulty that it was designed with evaporates.

However, we must consider the possibility that something could be changed with the raid mechanics to avoid that failure. So let's go through some potential adjustments.

The gameplay falls apart because higher-level characters are still attracted to joining the raid. That happens because the they can still improve with loot from it, and that happens because the raid was built as an activity for near-capped characters, who had plenty of time to repeat looting because they could no longer advance in XP levels.

Therefore, that particular problem can be avoided if the raid doesn't provide loot that's useful to higher-level characters, but then different obstacles arise, depending on exactly what was done. If the loot is good for low-level characters and the raid is challenging, then you'll still have high-level characters come in to help them win, even if it kills the XP. If the loot isn't very good either, then it become hard to provide an attractive reward that's worth the multiple downsides of having a bigger group. The lowbie raid can be given superior XP compared to same-level dungeons, but that'll cause a problem if it doesn't have a lockout timer: players would then be encouraged to repeat that raid over and over (once they got a group who could handle it), which is why raids were given lockouts in the first place.

And why would the lockout timer be removed from the low-level raid? Because if you didn't do that then it would be a waste of developer time, because low-level characters would only be able to play the raid once or twice before they advanced past it.

Angelus_dead
08-18-2010, 12:01 PM
Fixed it.
You inserted an error. The gameplay of Tempest Spine is less fun for DDO players in general: that is an observed fact.


Frankly for me and many I know, we had some of our best and most enjoyable or memorable runs in Tempest Spine. It was a staple of gameplay and enjoyed by lots of players.
Yes, there are many things enjoyable about Tempest Spine. But they are either:
1. Unreleated to the fact that more than six players can enter the dungeon.
2. At the expense of the majority of the group members.
3. Insubstantial (ie "Oh 12 players, that's rare and I haven't seen that before, so it must be good")

Cylinwolf
08-18-2010, 01:20 PM
As was the case in Irestone two to three people did all the work and 9 or 10 people tagged along.

How is that any different from any other raid that's been added to the game?

Veriden
08-18-2010, 01:28 PM
Actually, I'd like to see a lower level raid thats f2p for more reasons than most.

1.) When you're lvl 3-4 things are harder b/c there is only a certain level of awesomeness you can reach. Lower bonus gear, lower ac, lower sp/hp/dps makes you really have to remember how to conserve your abilities.

more reasons after I help a guildie

Edit to number one since some one wished to be rude, and not consider thinking about what I meant in my post. Then again such a person lacks common sense whom I won't name names.

1a.) At lower levels you don't have the uber gear or hundreds upon hundreds of hit ponts to act as a cushion for healers. Am I against higher level content, no. But the high level grind makes you appricate the difficulty at lower levels with what little usable gear you have.

2.) Putting it in korthos would make it a bit fun b/c I personally think snowy side korthos is fun, the 'protracted seige' the town could be getting ready for could happen shortly after the events of misery's peak and the raid take place on Korthos' explorer zone to fight hordes of saughin. 750 of them.

3.) Make it like devil assult where it scales so others can play it with some challenge also. Or just make devil's assult a raid double the number of enemies and how fast they come from the portals but allow 12 people to do it. Up the loot for it of course.

all in all high levels are fun and everything but I like the lower levels where fewer uber elites hang out. As it is right now I'm ashamed of the attitude most of my peers have at higher levels.

Sweyn
08-18-2010, 01:30 PM
I love raids. Unfortunatly, some new players will not get to experience a raid until about level 8. A raid is a party of 12 players. Tempest Spine is the first raid a character/player will experience. Tempest Spine is generally run at levels 9-12. It is free to play and absolutly an excellent raid for teaching newer players about raid dynamics and proper group building , as well as leadership for roles of raid group members.

I feel we should have a lower level raid put into the game. A raid for levels 4-7. Something that offers the challenges of Tempest Spine. The puzzles,the runes, timed levers (as in Vons 5), ranged levers, traps..etc etc.

Raiding is a very important aspect of DDO. Let us give newer players a taste of what is to come. A low level teaching platform for raiding. A glimpse of the challenges they will face in later parts of the game. And a way to get some of the new players some cool low level raid gear.

Do you think this is a good idea?
What types of suggestions would you have for a low level raid?
What type of gear would you like to see?

If you feel this is a good idea, sign away so Turbine takes a closer look at the suggestion!


That's exactly what we need!!! More low level content, what a great idea!

Angelus_dead
08-18-2010, 01:34 PM
1.) When you're lvl 3-4 things are harder b/c there is only a certain level of awesomeness you can reach. Lower bonus gear, lower ac, lower sp/hp/dps makes you really have to remember how to conserve your abilities.
Developers could also create a high-level raid which forced the player characters to conserve.

Just place a Xorian Lunacy debuff over the zone: Your thinking is disturbed by the forces of chaos. You can't read scrolls or benefit from mnemonic effects.

Slink
08-18-2010, 01:38 PM
I had posted about this idea @ EU release date.
Things have changed since then.

It is nice having different things to do at lower lever with TR, etc.
It is time for some new QUALITY content towards endgame without recycling existing content -or- making all new endgame stuff only in relation to lvl 20.

Bored-

S.

ArkoHighStar
08-18-2010, 01:59 PM
You inserted an error. The gameplay of Tempest Spine is less fun for DDO players in general: that is an observed fact.


Yes, there are many things enjoyable about Tempest Spine. But they are either:
1. Unreleated to the fact that more than six players can enter the dungeon.
2. At the expense of the majority of the group members.
3. Insubstantial (ie "Oh 12 players, that's rare and I haven't seen that before, so it must be good")

The enjoyment of Tempest spine as a so called double wide dungeon is completely subjective, and I find only 2 instances in the dungeon wher you can have people standing around(fire and ice,and the first part of the end boss fight). I thkn its benefits are as much social as they are fun gameplay.

However I will agree on this TS is not a training ground for the raids that come after it, as it shares little in common with the round room boss fights that all the raids are based on.

VON fight dragon on closed off round platform
Titan disable titan in closed off room
DQ fight dq on closed off round platform
Reaver fight giant in closed off round room
Abbot Fight abbott in closed off room
Shroud 3 pre rooms and then fight devil in round room, then square room
Hound Fight dog in small round room encircled by another round hallway
VOD fight Devil in round room
TOD Fight 2 boss in square room, fight boss in square room, fight end boss in roudn round room.

All the above have a very common thread, they are just basically end boss fights in a closed off area with some mini bosses and trash mobs throuwn in, or each having a unique hook like not killing the reaver until you get fly, or doing the puzzles in the abbot. While these raids can be fun the replayability factor is very short and they are done strictly for loot after a short while.
TS is a different beast as it has a mission type feel, and the addition of 6 other party members gives you a flexible way of doing things, you could move together as a group, you could split up and do objects seperately if you wish. You are right the enjoyment of Tempest Spine has nothing to do with the fact that it is a raid, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it with 11 other people.

In my opinion there is a place for both types of 12 man content

Now back to the original question, while I used to be in favor of a low end raid, I have realized its worth woudl be transient at best, now that lvl 20 is the cap, the worth of the loot is going to be very limited and the replayability will be next to nill, especially if it has a 3 day timer.

The only exception to this woudl be some kind of devil assault style system which allowed you to upgrade the loot as you went along and where N/H/E are different level ranges like devil assault. The upgrade mechanism should be very simple and not too much of a grind, and should culminate with an epic version. If done right this would be 3 different raids all following the same storyline with each advancing you to the elite version and the final end boss.

puttster3
08-18-2010, 06:36 PM
With my previous post, let me elaborate. What I meant was making little to no combat, but a puzzle that requires near 12 people. Teamwork necessary, and losing does not mean hefty repair bills.

Now, there is another thing that can make it attractive, make it a flagging raid to something that scales like Devils Assault.

Also, perhaps allowing 3 times per 2 days. Refreshes just like an eternal wand does (mind you longer), allowing consecutive uses.

As for the flagged for quest/raid, that's where the special loot will be, and the low repeat timer. I am not saying don't have any special loot in the flagger, but make it more situational, always get to get it, but defined by class and maybe exclusive. Situational like a recharge per day tumble cape.