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View Full Version : REMOVE Veteran Status from the store!



Calebro
08-06-2010, 12:01 AM
Veteran Status being available in the store is the single biggest contributor to new players never learning how to play.

Those first few levels, while easy as pie, teach new players certain things that they need to know, such as how and when to bypass DR, how and when to mitigate damage/aggro, etc. Even if the players immediately go back to Korthos as a level 4 toon, they don't learn these things because what little challenge existed for them as a level 1 is gone.
1000 favor is not difficult to get. Not at all. But as easy as it is to get to that point, it was an appropriate place to introduce Vet Status because by the time you get there, you've learned enough about the game and it's mechanics to be on your way.

It's my belief that the issues that we have with players getting to cap and still having no clue were the same players that purchased Vet Status from the store before they even unlocked Drow legitimately on their accounts. It is also my belief that removing Vet Status from the store, while not solving this problem completely, will help immensely in the fight to turn n00bs into newbs.

EDIT:
To allow for all access Vet Status: change it so that unlocking Veteran Status on any server unlocks it for your entire account.
Or change it so that it only becomes available in the store to purchase if the toon purchasing it has reached 1000 favor. The store already checks your toon when you enter the store, to see what is available to that toon. Adding in a favor requirement wouldn't be that difficult.

Jay203
08-06-2010, 12:09 AM
but i like my perma-vet status across servers :(:(:(:(

Rumbaar
08-06-2010, 12:13 AM
It's okay we've changed 1d6 to 1 to 6 now, so new players do not have to learn anything any more.

For those dying at the hands of Beholders and being cursed by Mummys and the like, you don't have to learn anything any more either, just purchase the ward item/s from the store.

But that being said I like the veteran status on all servers, it's nice to favor farm and/or get a nice head start if I want to try an new server.

Calebro
08-06-2010, 12:15 AM
but i like my perma-vet status across servers :(:(:(:(

So then change it so that unlocking Veteran Status on any server unlocks it for your entire account. Or change it so that it only becomes available in the store to purchase if the toon purchasing it has reached 1000 favor.
It checks your toon when you enter the store, to see what is available to that toon. Adding in a favor requirement wouldn't be that difficult.

jcTharin
08-06-2010, 12:15 AM
how about a join date requirement?

Robi3.0
08-06-2010, 12:16 AM
The problem with this suggestion is that the people that cap a character and don't have a clue what to aren't going to find that clue in an extra four levels. It will probably be at least another capped toons worth of level to teach those people what the need to know. If those people have the ability to learn at all.

Meanwhile, people like jay that want perma-vet on every server have no way to give Turbine their hard earn cash for that option.


P.S. I think my cat may have sleep apnea. :(

biggin
08-06-2010, 12:19 AM
/signed

Absolutely no reason a new player should skip those first few levels.

learst
08-06-2010, 01:09 AM
Is there any claims/forum posts/dev notice that a lot of new players are buying veteran status?

I would assume that a new player to the game is most likely f2p, and will tinker around to see if he/she likes the game. And by then he would likely finished Korthos, figures that he likes/hates the game, and then decides whether to spend any cash on it.

Anyway, doing Korthos once is ok with me. Even if that new player rolls a new toon and decides to zerg/skip Korthos, he's already done it once and has learned, IMO, most of what that newbie island is supposed to impart.

i dunno, but to me it seems unlikely that the first thing a new player does is pull up the DDO store and look for items that will help them "skip" levels.

TiranBlade
08-06-2010, 01:49 AM
I'm just playing the advocate for the opposition of this,

But as it is Vet Status can only be purchased by a level 4 or higher character, so someone would and should have at least learned some of the basics before they can even buy this option.

I would think the fact that you had to be level 4 to begin with made sense, about the only change I would say make is making the level required of a player to buy it a higher level.

Now my own personal view point. I don't like vet status period. I have it, I use it, I hate myself for using it, you miss out on a lot way to quick. But at the same time I use it to test out how builds work and on some character, I.E. Rangers, I think it helps getting past the difficulties with some of the Two Weapon gains.

Now my other issue is, why have the possibility of skipping the first fifth of levels you character is to gain, without some at least some quest way to earn it.

So yes you start at level four faster, but why not set it up where you run a special quest event, like say four quests, or such to give you the levels. They have no scaling XP, are solo quests that you actually have to run through, kinda like a quickie tutorial, with risk of dying, more for role play purposes to explain things rather than the current way to do it.

Rasczak
08-06-2010, 02:06 AM
Not to be daft but a new player has to go through the tutorial and should be level 3 by the time they finish Misery.....if you haven't learnt what you needed to by then (learnt as in how to move, hit, pick up), being able to create lvl 4 chars after that won't help either. And imo, it's only lvl 5 q's and up that start teaching a player that monsters don't like you much and want you dead. Anything before is just monster hitting you.

Jendrak
08-06-2010, 02:10 AM
While this idea has merrit it doesnt change the fact that a new player who doesnt listen, wont accept outside help, and basically thinks that just because they played <insert other MMO here> they know how DDO works is destined to be a N00B.

There are some things you just cant fix and stupid is one of them. :D

MsEricka
08-06-2010, 02:15 AM
Level 1, level 4, level 20, I've seen and heard some stupid things from all of them.

What difference does it make? Do you really think this will make the players any better? If you do you're delusional.

dunklezhan
08-06-2010, 03:16 AM
I bought vet status after levelling two toons up past four (think I got one to 4 and one to maybe 6). I decided to reroll one and just couldn't face repeating those starter quests so soon. Note that you can't buy vet status till you've got past level 4 once anyway.

Honestly, I think it hasn't made much of a difference to me. I didn't learn anything re damage reduction or the other issues in those first four levels that I wouldn't learn during level 4-5 even if I'd never done 1-4 in the first place, and it takes about the same amount of time to get from 4-5 as it does to get from 1-4 anyway depending on how you do it.

However, the question is should I have been able to buy vet status?

I do think its too easy to get it - just getting to L4 once then spending some cash probably shouldn't be all it takes. I would sign the idea that you have to get to 1000 favour once before you buy it and unlock it across all servers. Much though I would miss it, I'd say the same for 32pt build (which I also took advantage of early on) - you should have either reached L20 once, unlocking the ability to TR (and by default getting 32 pt build if you did), or you should have had to have reached whatever the favour marker that unlocks it for that server - whichever comes first, but you should have to reach one of these before you can spend the money/TPs and have it unlocked across all servers.

It also has to be said that I got through L1-4 first time round by hitting every single quest at least once. It was a new game, I was full of keen, I wanted to see and do everything. I didn't really need to do it again to learn those lessons, though it was fun to do it again with a different class and play with their early game abilities. I even created a L1 character recently to play with a mate who wanted to try DDO, and that was lots of fun (though the fun part was mostly that I was playing with someone I know, rather than the character).

So: would I want to stop people buying Vet or 32 pt character? No. Would I want to stop them buying it quite so easily? Yes, on balance, even though I did it myself, yes I think I would. Some things can only be appreciated if they've been earned.

dunklezhan
08-06-2010, 03:20 AM
Now my other issue is, why have the possibility of skipping the first fifth of levels you character is to gain, without some at least some quest way to earn it.

So yes you start at level four faster, but why not set it up where you run a special quest event, like say four quests, or such to give you the levels. They have no scaling XP, are solo quests that you actually have to run through, kinda like a quickie tutorial, with risk of dying, more for role play purposes to explain things rather than the current way to do it.

that is a wonderful idea. +1 rep for you.

/sarcasm However, WoW did that for their Death Knight 'prestige class' starter area. Clearly therefore even though its a great idea we shouldn't do it because it makes DDO more WoW-like. /end sarcasm.

sainy_matthew
08-06-2010, 03:26 AM
heck i would suggest getting rid of vetran status completely... I mean whats the point of playing the game if not to play the game? Also, it would be good for the ego's of vetrans to have to suck for a while. Too many vetrans get too big for the boots & korthos island can have a bit of a sobering effect.

-M

TiranBlade
08-06-2010, 01:48 PM
heck i would suggest getting rid of vetran status completely... I mean whats the point of playing the game if not to play the game? Also, it would be good for the ego's of vetrans to have to suck for a while. Too many vetrans get too big for the boots & korthos island can have a bit of a sobering effect.

-M

If they do get rid of Vet status, it comes down to paying the players back for the TP/RL Cash the player spent to get it. I would definately like my TP Back so I could put it towards something else.

samthedagger
08-06-2010, 01:52 PM
Yada yada yada.

I take issue with your sig, sir. Unless she is extremely flat, the fastest way to a woman's heart is through the back. Learn some simple medical biology.

jwdaniels
08-06-2010, 01:54 PM
A better way to learn about DR, stacking bonuses, and game concepts like that is to just require everyone to play the PnP tabletop version of Dungeons & Dragons. Then people will learn all about the various game concepts that DDO took from that game.

/sarcasm

Cam_Neely
08-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Well, I tend to think turbine will not take something out of the store that makes them money. On the other handit would be nice for them to throw a bone to some of these requests. I would suggest that you make vet status unlockable in the store. ie you cant buy it until one of your toons unlocks the drow.

Cyr
08-06-2010, 02:05 PM
/signed

The edit sold this suggestion.

This is not a 'build option' which you really do want players to have access to without having to trash the toon they grinded on to use it. This was 100% put into the store just to make a quick buck.

zorander6
08-06-2010, 02:22 PM
Is there anything on Korthos that actually has DR? I can solo korthos with an untwinked char in about an hour (with haste) so why should I bother having to wait till I get 1000 favor (at 918 last I checked) to re run korthos again when I roll an alt (I have alt-itis.) I've only been playing a couple months and would love to be able to skip my first four levels on an alt for "testing." I'm a newb and know if, if I screw up I learn from it (usually.) I've played PnP and get tire of running the same quests over and over again....Just don't have the TP to get vet status from the store.

Gunga
08-06-2010, 02:24 PM
No.

Don't do this.

Thanks.

Warwolf42
08-06-2010, 02:35 PM
Not a good idea, it's based on the wrong premise that someone who hasn't "earned" in game the Vet status hasn't learned how to play.

I've rolled and re-rolled dozens of characters, I'm sick to death of Korthos, and I still need to run it for Coin Lord favor. At least I can now sprint through it.

People who by Vet status do so for various reasons, people who play DDO do so for various reason. If someone doesn't want to learn to play, Vet status won't change that.

Visty
08-06-2010, 02:40 PM
Is there anything on Korthos that actually has DR? I can solo korthos with an untwinked char in about an hour (with haste) so why should I bother having to wait till I get 1000 favor (at 918 last I checked) to re run korthos again when I roll an alt (I have alt-itis.) I've only been playing a couple months and would love to be able to skip my first four levels on an alt for "testing." I'm a newb and know if, if I screw up I learn from it (usually.) I've played PnP and get tire of running the same quests over and over again....Just don't have the TP to get vet status from the store.
first: zombies have DR, skeletons have DR, mephits have DR
second: once you have done korthos on a server, you can skip it entirely, you dont need veteran for that

zorander6
08-06-2010, 02:47 PM
first: zombies have DR, skeletons have DR, mephits have DR
second: once you have done korthos on a server, you can skip it entirely, you dont need veteran for that

However running a lot of the harbor quests are...not fun when you have no items from korthos, so I have to run korthos quests at least once. Forgot about the zombies, skellies and mephits since their DR has caused me no problems :/

And I believe if you talk to the first mate you can skip everything but the shoreline without having completed Misery's. Would have to create another account to verify this though.

flynnjsw
08-06-2010, 02:52 PM
I take issue with your sig, sir. Unless she is extremely flat, the fastest way to a woman's heart is through the back. Learn some simple medical biology.

You are only right if you assume that he means going Ventrally. However if you go lateral (say between the 5th and the 6th ribs)you will achieve the same effect, and it is almost equidistant.

Darkrok
08-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Vet status doesn't remove the need to run the early quests (favor and some of the rewards are worthwhile for certain classes). It does however mitigate it in that you can now run all those favor/gearing quests at warp speed since you're over level.

If they're going to do something like that I'd say you have to still sell it but sell it as an option to take your unlocks on a single server and extend them to all servers. This would go for Drow, FvS, 32-point builds, and vet status. Remove the ability to buy them with no restrictions if you want (I don't think they need removed but that's beside the point) but definitely keep them in for cross server stuff.

And as for 1750 favor being easy to get...that depends on how you play. If you're a slave to the favor and let favor choose your quests for you then sure, you're right. 1750 is easy. I didn't level that way though. I did what I felt like doing each day depending on my kids or my friends that were playing. Quite a bit of slayers. Oftentimes running normal. I made it to level 20 with just under 1500 favor. I've since ground out the last 250 or so just to get the free tome lined up but it was a grind...I was running quests that I didn't feel like running just because of a favor score. So feel free to make arguments about needing that extra favor to earn the right for 32-point builds...that's fine and I don't feel strongly one way or the other. But don't make the argument that you 'need' 1750 favor to understand 32-point builds (or 1000 favor to understand Vet Status for that matter). I learned nothing by going back and soloing things like The Captives or The Depths series on elite at level 20. :)

ThatLukeGuy
08-06-2010, 03:46 PM
No I'm not rich. But...

You might be able to play the game all day long, everyday, and say that the time is well spent and the money is well saved. And you might be right.

I have to work most of the day, then when I get home and I'm not off to the store with the wife for this or that, or we're not entertaining or meeting with friends or helping family with something or out the the movie, or out the the gym or blah blah blah blah blah, if I'm lucky, I get to log on and play this game that I'm fond of quite a bit. (I can't wait till we have kids, so that I have even *more* time to myself...)

You can spend your time for vet status, I'll spend my money. I earn enough of it that between money and time, money is the cheaper of the two for me in this scenario.

/sarcasm

Don't make me have to spend more time on things of convenience in this game or I'll be forced to start a petition to make the game cost more money and thus make you equally unhappy! ><

/endsarcasm

Rumbaar
08-06-2010, 08:03 PM
The fact they've removed renown from the Korthos quests gives new players less incentive to stay on the island and learn now too.

azrael4h
08-07-2010, 08:27 AM
1 - You cannot buy Veteran Status without running to level 4 at least once. So the suggestion has no merit in thinking that these people are just coming in and buying veteran status solely to skip those levels; they HAD to run them first before buying it.

2 - If you cannot figure out DR in levels 5-20, then levels 1-4 won't teach you anything either.

3 - You can easily skip Korthos even as a level 1. Simply talk to the first mate, and leave. The only thing you have to do is the shipwreck shore and grotto quest. Which I liked to do for the water breathing ring anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

The entire rant seems like an elitist diatribe. The fact is you already have to earn the right to purchase veteran status. Maybe bumping the required level up to 6 would help, but seriously, I doubt it. It doesn't change in-game balance at all, and again, if you can't learn about DDO running a level 5 quest, the level1-2 stuff on Korthos won't be teaching you anything.

If a person can make it to 20 without learning this stuff, then Korthos will not change anything. They are a poor player. Deal with it, you're going to have a hard time in life as well as mmos if you can't. You'll find the people who have made it through life knowing the least, and being the most incompetent, are often your boss.

Buggss
08-07-2010, 08:35 AM
/signed.... 'nuff said. :)


1 - You cannot buy Veteran Status without running to level 4 at least once......

Very true but you certainly can't get enough favour for veteran at lvl 4 so making someone get favour instead of buying the ability means more of the game played than bought. As you said it's still not unusual that someone can get to lvl 20 and still be a terrible player but this change would at least catch a few before it happens.

azrael4h
08-07-2010, 08:53 AM
/signed.... 'nuff said. :)



Very true but you certainly can't get enough favour for veteran at lvl 4 so making someone get favour instead of buying the ability means more of the game played than bought. As you said it's still not unusual that someone can get to lvl 20 and still be a terrible player but this change would at least catch a few before it happens.

So? The problem is players are hitting LEVEL 20 without learning how to play. It is the height of wishful thinking to think that even one noob that can run all the way to 20 without learning about DR, spell selection, or not ****ing off the Cleric in the party will learn it on Korthos. They already RAN Korthos, and did not learn it. They ran higher level quests, ones where needing to know this stuff has far more relevance, and STILL did not learn it. They've presumably ran things like Deleras Tomb, which practically everything has some form of DR or another, and STILL could not figure this out. How is Heyton's Rest going to teach THAT level of determined noobishness what Delera's or heck even Necro can not (forget the higher level stuff)?

The proposed change will have no effect on those it's intended to effect. It only serves to reduce Turbine's income, and **** off people who made the purchase already. It will not catch anyone and make them a better player, just because they ran Korthos.

The only way to make a better player is for the player to want to be a better player. Many, however, don't give a flying ****. This won't change that. It may make people leave, but most likely you'll be losing as many good players as poor.

puttster3
08-07-2010, 09:30 AM
I like this, I mean yes it won't make everyone know the game, but it will close down the line abit. Could maybe instead of needing 1000 favor, require level 4 and 500 favor just to buy it.

As far as I can tell, a good reason why people do not know what to do is they turned off the help notes, like the ones that appear in Heyton's Rest, to you being low on health. For those that come from other MMO's and the like, they see the first few help notes, looks basic enough, but also annoying. Thus they turn them off before getting to the material they needed to know.

bloodnose13
08-07-2010, 10:15 AM
/signed

that is actualy great idea, veteran status should be earned.

sainy_matthew
08-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Its not that someone who doesn't play korthos island is not going to have learnt how to play by level 20, its that he's not going to have learnt by level 4 thru 8. Thing about Korthos is that everyone sucks... its why Korthos ISland exists, but by the time you are in the harbour you expect the people to suck considerably less, in fact you rely on it. There is a reason why some many threads are showing up complaining about the quality of PUG. Its because a person who has puerchased vetran status is playing at a level 1 level & not at Level 4, because they didn't have to learn at the same time as other people.

Korthos Island is not exactly fun, but it teaches you the limits of you new class. There enough solo and soloable stuff that one needs to learn there role or die.

I personally think they should drop all Vetran Status, as i personally consider it too much of a short cut for lazy Vets. I would especially like to see it for Vets, as i am so sick of hearing about there uber high level characters... Heck if you are going for completionist and your using vetran status, i say you're cheating (mainly cheating your self, but still cheating).

-M

Sani_Medicor
08-07-2010, 10:26 AM
I love veteran status, but I know how to play the game. My stepson plays on a bunch of different servers and it allows me to make whatever character I need to help him out. I also used it to make a perma level 4 cleric to help low level groups. I plan to do the same with a rogue, since those seem to be the two classes groups are usually looking for to start a quest. Oh and last night I used it to instantly get monk fists of light to see if it would be useful for a build that I'm working on. So in short, I love my veteran status.

Pyromaniac
08-07-2010, 01:10 PM
/not signed. Taking away the personal XP death penalty is the key reason why some new players can't play and make it to cap.

PCSwarrior
08-07-2010, 01:15 PM
You can't use Veteran Status until you level atleast 1 toon to level 4 anyways, so what's the big deal?

azrael4h
08-07-2010, 04:36 PM
/not signed. Taking away the personal XP death penalty is the key reason why some new players can't play and make it to cap.

Wrong thread. And taking away the personal xp penalty for dying has made it easier (along with easy access to store-bought resurrection cakes) to level. You can die 100 times, as long as you don't mind paying for the raise dead (and I doubt even the most ardent of healbot Clerics/FvS will be willing to raise someone who dies that much. I keep a three strikes rule myself).

Pyromaniac
08-07-2010, 05:14 PM
Wrong thread.

Given the reason the OP states for this is that new players don't learn to play...in my opinion personal XP penalties ensure they do. Therefore no need for veteran status removal.

azrael4h
08-07-2010, 05:50 PM
Given the reason the OP states for this is that new players don't learn to play...in my opinion personal XP penalties ensure they do. Therefore no need for veteran status removal.

Ah. I misread the post (sorta read it backwards). My apologies.