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Templarion
08-02-2010, 09:42 AM
Good day to all.

I have played DDO three months now. I like it.

What I would like to see is permadeath/hardcore* mode in the game. (*=Once your character dies it cannot be played anymore.)

Probably Turbine has considered this already but then they should reconsider. How many other similarly popular MMO has this kind of feature? None! Advertising with this kind of feature would bring lots of new players to DDO. I know very well that many MMO players like to play softcore but there are lots of MMO players in the world. Even 10% is a lot!

Only the most hardcore players create/join permadeath guilds when the feature is not available. Personally, I want the game to make the rules. I also know that many other think like I do here. Still, there are so many permadeath guilds. Just think about the hidden potential here!

I am not talking here how it should be done. There are many ways and even the simplest way would be better than nothing.

Please, vote with your comments!

If you belong to Turbine staff and you just read this - thank you.

KillEveryone
08-02-2010, 09:46 AM
At least you didn't ask for your own server like the others have.

I don't understand the need for having the game tell you that you can't play your character anymore. Just delete your character when you die.

I also don't care for this because with the bugs that are in there now, something may get crossed and the game may think I selected such an option and if I die then I won't be able to play my character anymore.

Templarion
08-02-2010, 09:54 AM
KillEveryone, thx for reply.

As I said in my post, I want the game to make rules. I am not noble enough to follow my own rules. And in bad moments, I will cheat myself. We all cheat. You know it. It is the nature of people.

When I played Diablo 2, I suffered many deaths due lag, crashes and glitches. So did many others. It is the nature of video games and I accept it.

Fear of death makes everything much more fun.

Lorien_the_First_One
08-02-2010, 09:58 AM
KillEveryone, thx for reply.

As I said in my post, I want the game to make rules. I am not noble enough to follow my own rules. And in bad moments, I will cheat myself. We all cheat. You know it. It is the nature of people.

When I played Diablo 2, I suffered many deaths due lag, crashes and glitches. So did many others. It is the nature of video games and I accept it.

Fear of death makes everything much more fun.

I don't think we should put programmer time on solving the problem that you don't trust yourself.

Missing_Minds
08-02-2010, 10:02 AM
I am not noble enough to follow my own rules.
And you will have players complaining about the rules because they are not what they follow.

I suffered many deaths due lag, crashes and glitches.
And then you would have players complaining about this in their standard vocal minority self.

Find yourself a permadeath guild that inforces the rules and don't run with anyone but them. If you can't keep honest, I expect them to kick you out. If that won't keep you honest, don't play that style and be honest with yourself.

JPDefault
08-02-2010, 10:21 AM
This may surprise you, but I guess most Permadeath players (including me) don't want a PD server.

On the other hand, I'm sure many players (again, including me :D) would like a "hardcore mode/server", for example:
- Permanent stat damage
- Permanent effects (curse, bane, blindness...)
- Long lasting enchantments (hold person, just to name one)
- No Casual and Normal difficulties
- No cheap XP (slayers, farming the same quest with little XP penalty...)
- No "Free extra shrines" (see Tear of Dhakaan)
...these are just a few examples, the list may go on.

While some may be solved by joining a guild with restrictive rules (no farming, no casual/normal), others are just impossible to circumvent (can your guild un-nerf Hold Person? :().

Templarion
08-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Thank you for comments Lorien_the_First_One and Missing_Minds.

First of all, I want to underline the hidden potential here. I am not the only one and I think you both are underestimating the popularity of this matter. Think about the people waiting for Diablo 3 and the hardcore mode that is promised to be in there. If DDO catches even 25% of those people, it is still a huge number.

As for programming, the easiest way would be to add a checkbox in the character creation and instant delete when the character dies. That is not a huge job which I know as a progammer myself. If I am wrong about the popularity, it could stay as simple as that. If I am right, the feature could be upgraded and made more advanced.

Since there are no other as popular MMOs with this feature, this would be good bussiness for Turbine. At least I think so.

JPDefault, permadeath/hardcore mode would not require it's own server. It would be rather easy to implement it on every server. Of course, if the feature would get lots of popularity there could be even a server for it.

Visty
08-02-2010, 10:31 AM
if you dont trust yourself how can you be sure you dont stab yourself with the knife buttering your bread?

Cylinwolf
08-02-2010, 11:00 AM
As for programming, the easiest way would be to add a checkbox in the character creation and instant delete when the character dies. That is not a huge job which I know as a progammer myself.

If the servers are not designed to auto-delete characters, that is not as easy as it sounds. That's as bad as, if not worse than, trying to code an engine change.


JPDefault, permadeath/hardcore mode would not require it's own server. It would be rather easy to implement it on every server.

It's not good to use "oh, this would be easy to code" in your arguments unless you have a resume backing up your deep history of MMO development. It's just not a legitimate point and your breath could be spent in much better areas trying to prove that the feature would be worthy.


Since there are no other as popular MMOs with this feature, this would be good bussiness for Turbine. At least I think so.

So, then, Turbine should also make a system where you're only allowed one character per server and when one of them dies you're locked out of a month of playtime as punishment because no one else is doing it.

There's a reason people don't do things like that. There's a reason that every MMO ever gets progressively more accepting and rewarding for casual players.

AyumiAmakusa
08-02-2010, 11:12 AM
KillEveryone, thx for reply.

As I said in my post, I want the game to make rules. I am not noble enough to follow my own rules. And in bad moments, I will cheat myself. We all cheat. You know it. It is the nature of people.

When I played Diablo 2, I suffered many deaths due lag, crashes and glitches. So did many others. It is the nature of video games and I accept it.

Fear of death makes everything much more fun.

Sorry but this feature will likely not be implemented. The Reasons are because:

1) Do you know how many people get tricked by /deathcount? Imagine if someone were to go around telling them to click the checkbox stating that if their character dies, they cannot play it anymore. Some people are really stupid (no offense) and will do this.

2) More whiners will then cry to the support team saying so-and-so tricked them into doing it and now their level 10-ish character is unplayable and they scream in the forums 'PLEASE FIX THIS!!'

To the OP, if you are afraid that you will cheat, if you join a Permadeath Guild, they'll normally keep track of what characters you have and your fellow guildies will prevent you from cheating. Actually, if you even feel like cheating in the first place, you're clearly not quite suited for Permadeath. Anyway, help each other out in preventing cheating. If you do cheat once in a while, at least it's ONCE in a while right?

PopeDX
08-02-2010, 11:28 AM
As for programming, the easiest way would be to add a checkbox in the character creation and instant delete when the character dies.

So we'll have characters dropping group halfway through quests. Lovely.

Templarion
08-02-2010, 12:30 PM
Cylinwolf, true. I am sorry. Since I don't have long experience of MMO coding my argument is not valid. What you said about punishment systems and casual playing ... Well, I am not a casual player. ;-)

AyumiAmakusa, thanks for comments. Yeah. I know I am fighting windmills here.

PopeDX, yes. That is probably the easiest way to do it and I would love it, too. However, as I wrote before, there are also many other ways to do it.

I know very well that I belong to a minority. However, this minority still has thousands of players. Permadeath/Harcore feature is very close to my heart and it alone made me play Diablo 2 over five years. There is a reason I wrote this thread and did not whine about colors/shapes of armors.

Robai
08-02-2010, 12:32 PM
I would like it this way:
- when you go to any quest you can choose not only quest level (Normal, Hard, Elite), but also be able check an option for Permanent death mode
- but Permanent death mode should give some bonus, like +50% XP or double XP
- and Permanent death mode should be picked only once per quest level (i.e. 3 times per each quest).
- and repeating quest penalty should apply as it is now (i.e. no change here)

PopeDX
08-02-2010, 01:32 PM
PopeDX, yes. That is probably the easiest way to do it and I would love it, too. However, as I wrote before, there are also many other ways to do it.

So your inability to self-regulate could lead to a party wipe. Awesome.

h4x0r1f1c
08-02-2010, 02:23 PM
/signed because why not?

If someone wants the option to toggle "permadeath/hardcore" at character creation and pop back in Korthos upon their death that's fine with me.

It would suck if a permadeath player died in your party though and instead of coming back in (if you didn't care about the reentry) he instead was turned into a lvl 1.

For that reason... I can see people not liking it. But there's always a fix somewhere. Make this guy happy imo.

Templarion
08-02-2010, 03:40 PM
TheRobai, as I said, I don't care how it is done. Almost anything would be fine. ;-)

h4x0r1f1c, hey. Thanks! Lots of hate around here. Not sure why. I think also the more options, the better. After all, the number of permadeath guilds means that many players of DDO want to make their own rules because the game doesn't support anything close it.

Cylinwolf
08-02-2010, 07:18 PM
Cylinwolf, true. I am sorry. Since I don't have long experience of MMO coding my argument is not valid. What you said about punishment systems and casual playing ... Well, I am not a casual player. ;-)

My point was more leaning towards that, even if you (or I) are more hardcore than most, any MMO developer knows that catering towards casual players will bring in the most money. Anything that alienates them is a bad business move.

Blizzard actually learned that one with WoW during The Burning Crusade. It took so long and so much work to even get to see the new content they were putting out. So, then, why would they invest money in developing things that only 3% of the players would either get to see or even want to see?

KrEstoF
08-02-2010, 08:36 PM
I'd like to see what would happen with this idea and they gave it a try. But I do realize there are raise dead and ressurect spells... as well as a plethora of house jorasco people to true ressurect you or whatever it is they do when you die. These spells have been standard in DnD a long time, although I suppose they weren't originally or had some serious chances of not working.

I do think there should be a separate server for it. Here's why: So, when you go to party someone, anyone, you know full well if they die that they'll be leaving. Since lag will be an issue, we want this server to minimize lag as much as possible. Fortunately, we probably aren't expecting many people to be playing this server either... Finally, it would be interesting to see how the dynamics of such a server would be. Would level 20 characters be few and far between? How would the economy behave? And what would players normally do? Repeatedly grind easy quests just to level up? Again, I would just like to see it as an experiment, and possibly turbine could delve into it and see if, in fact, there is any money to be made.

Also, I do know that making it so that a player will be deleted upon death will not be that hard. We can already assume that there is a function to delete a player when they chose to do it. So all you would have to do is kick the player to the character select menu and call that function when they die. It doesn't take years of experience developing MMOs, just general experience with programming and basic design, and common sense.

Templarion
08-03-2010, 02:02 AM
Cylinwolf, even so small percentages can be a big amount of players. And since there is no competition in permadeath/hardcore area, DDO should be able to gather a lot of players interested in that feature. Consider the time it would take to do and the amount of players it would attract, that's not a bad ratio at all. I am not saying it is easiest thing to implement, but it should not be the hardest either.

Duncani_Daho
08-03-2010, 02:31 AM
KillEveryone, thx for reply.

As I said in my post, I want the game to make rules. I am not noble enough to follow my own rules. And in bad moments, I will cheat myself. We all cheat. You know it. It is the nature of people.

When I played Diablo 2, I suffered many deaths due lag, crashes and glitches. So did many others. It is the nature of video games and I accept it.

Fear of death makes everything much more fun.

Hi Templarion,

I am the guild leader of The Core HC Permadeath Guild on Khyber. We have been up and running about a year and a half. In all that time, I can honestly say I've only heard about 2-3 instances of people cheating. Both times involved the alt-f4 method of disconnecting when death seemed imminent to the player. One was warned and never tried it again (first time he didn't exactly know it was against the rules); and the other did numerous flakey things and voluntarily left the guild.

So cheating is a very minor issue in most PD guilds I have played in, but especially in The Core. What makes The Core different? We have a no-solo rule. This simple rule prevents 99.99% of cheating upon a death because that person would have to try to appeal to another person to let the death be overlooked "just this once." Most players wouldn't waste their breath. Since the rules are pretty harsh and apply to everyone, no asks to be let off the permadeath hook because it would mean a slippery slope towards making the whole permadeath effort a laughing stock.

My advice: don't wait for the Dev's to make ANY kind of change regarding permadeath play. Join an active permadeath guild now and get in on the fun! Sure, some programming like you mention might be beneficial for permadeath style, but any change would create 10 more questions and concerns. Would it be public knowledge that those characters are permadeath? Would lag deaths count? Just one example of a hypothetical concern, if the Devs do make a permadeath option, players might grind slayer or quest below their level to earn easy xp and level up for bragging rights. Level 20 and no deaths!

Update 6 is around the corner and The Carnival of Shadows is still a churning death machine. What better time than now to join a permadeath guild and level up a special character, one with a unique story amid the constant scrap for survival.

The Core HC Permadeath Guild
HC = Hardcore, the most challenging permadeath guild in DDO.

Movan,
thecorehc.home.comcast.net

Minttunator
08-03-2010, 06:00 AM
As I said in my post, I want the game to make rules. I am not noble enough to follow my own rules. And in bad moments, I will cheat myself. We all cheat. You know it. It is the nature of people.

I really admire the people who play Permadeath, but I don't really understand how it works in practice. I'm sorry for being uninformed if there's an obvious answer, but is there currently any way to prove you haven't died? How do your guildmates know you're not 'cheating'?

If there's currently no way to do that, then it would indeed be awesome if there was a feature in the game that prevented 'cheating' in Permadeath - ideally a Diablo-style hardcore mode. This would require a lot of development time though.

However, it seems to me that the status quo might already be improved by quite a bit if there was a way to make plain if one had 'cheated' (died) with a character. In that sense, an actual '/death count' command would be brilliant, the result of which could be published into the party chat (like /roll currently is). Shouldn't be terribly hard to implement and would go a long way toward facilitating Permadeath play. :)

Cylinwolf
08-03-2010, 02:42 PM
I really admire the people who play Permadeath, but I don't really understand how it works in practice. I'm sorry for being uninformed if there's an obvious answer, but is there currently any way to prove you haven't died? How do your guildmates know you're not 'cheating'?

Usually when you join a permadeath guild (Sublime, etc) and only (or are only allowed to) run with them.

If you're "cheating," not only are you ruining all the fun you should be getting out of overcoming the probably-only intense challenge in DDO anymore and you're also damaging the optimum fun of all other PD players around you.

jwdaniels
08-03-2010, 02:56 PM
The one thing I've never understood about permadeath in this game is this - one of the root concepts of Dungeons and Dragons has always been the existence of insanely powerful magic. It is understood that some of this magic is bestowed by the gods and has the power of life and death and thus it is possible to be raised from the dead. How can you reconcile permadeath in a game that has life-restoring magic as a central premise?

Templarion
08-03-2010, 04:30 PM
Duncani_Daho, thanks for the invite. However, I will probably change game rather than join PD guild. As I said before, I like the game to create the rules. If the challenges in the game are too easy to beat, then I simply complete the game and quit playing it.

jwdaniels, are you serious? It's a game. I am only asking for more challenge. Reaching level 20 is too easy atm. Permadeath/Hardcore mode would make it much more interesting. Even the true reincarnation makes the progress only slower but cannot stop it.

Templarion
08-05-2010, 02:22 AM
I would like to know how many here have played Diablo 2 on hardcore or is Diablo 2 already ancient history?

JPDefault
08-05-2010, 03:06 AM
The one thing I've never understood about permadeath in this game is this - one of the root concepts of Dungeons and Dragons has always been the existence of insanely powerful magic. It is understood that some of this magic is bestowed by the gods and has the power of life and death and thus it is possible to be raised from the dead. How can you reconcile permadeath in a game that has life-restoring magic as a central premise?

Permadeath guilds have different rules about death. Sometimes they are very different, but all of them include ways to be resurrected (except from Res Shrines: they don't exist in PD).

The Sublime simply allows you to be raised/resurrected as long as someone in your party can res you.

The Core and MV are a little more restrictive (can only be resurrected by spells/abilities if you are level 9+; can only be resurrected your base CON/2 times; you must leave the instance after a raise; the cleric must leave the instance if he resurrects you; etc...).

Those rules are usually inspired by pencil and paper D&D. For example, in MV the cleric must have the dead character's Soul Stone in his backpack to be able to cast Raise Dead, to simulate the requirement to have the body.

Drall.
08-05-2010, 03:26 AM
I play in Mortal Voyage and I wanted to add a few points:

- The game catering to hardcore/perma-death for marketing reasons is probably a good idea on its own; the question is where does it stand in Turbine lists of priorities vis a vis implementing new content, improving the existing game or going for other "niches". I will let them figure that out.

- Permadeath play in DDO is more than re-roll on death. It's about increased challenge. To support the style of play you need more than delete on death. You need things like no auction house, no questing below your level, no buying magic items, no twinking, no hirelings...

- One would assume that if a PD mode would exist, the PD would not party with non-PD (as PD guilds do now). The reason is simple, you add all these constraints to make the game tougher and then you party with fully tweaked/geared-up people to make it easy again? It does not make sense.

- BTW, you do not have to have all your character in PD. You can try one and see if its for you and still do the regular game with other characters.


Drall

MateCarefor
08-05-2010, 04:15 AM
There is such a tremendous amount of griefing possible with a perma-death set-up here,
I cannot see how it would not chew up tons of customer service time re-instating 'mistaken' deaths.

The whole idea of being perma-death is to be seriously hardcore;
If you cannot handle enforcing rules on yourself (like self-deleting), I just cannot see how to make it work in DDO.
The folks doing it here are like role players or others who take a framework and make of it what they will.
To do that, however, requires them to be dedicated and diligent. (Such as not requiring the world to be changed to suit them).

To do a whole perma-death setup? It would take a different game entirely to really work (in my opinion).

While I am opining, I gotta say perma-death is something I could never even attempt on an MMO or any game that relies on stability of a remote connection.
The lag deaths, physics errors, etc would drive me off in a week.
Or having to re-adapt to sudden class, career, equipment, spell effects, etc: logging on one day and getting mowed down because something was different from a week before, and now being deleted?
Meh. Not my kind of fun. :)

~Zornochio
08-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Meh. Not my kind of fun. :)

I think any permadeath player would agree with you... Lag deaths SUCK, it's just something we have to get used to (some consider lag deaths an act of god, easier to accept :p). Death isn't the fun part though, it's just what makes all the close calls leading up to it so exciting.

Chai
08-05-2010, 04:00 PM
I would have to say nay on this one. The best permadeath and ironman rules are self policed rules.

If you cant obey the rules your group / guild has set forth, then this poses the question: Why are you here? -or- Why are you playing this style in the first place?

Most people who play by hard core rulesets in a game that doesnt already have them do so because they_want_to_do_this, and not because there is some mechanism breathing down their neck that will enforce the rule on them.

There are plenty of permadeath guilds to choose from, and it is pretty easy to find one that plays by the rules you envision permadeath being in an MMO.

Six million ways to die, choose one.

augie
08-05-2010, 04:15 PM
I would like to know how many here have played Diablo 2 on hardcore or is Diablo 2 already ancient history?

I can't even imagine the number of hours I spent on D2 back in the day. Probably did more hours in that game in a year and a half than I've done in DDO in 4.5 years. It was a flat-out addiction until one day I finally said "forget this, it's ruining my life" and then I set up private games where I proceeded to dump every single piece of equipment I had to random people.

Super fun game though and hardcore was the only way I played. Nothing like blasting around on a tricked out sorceress and accidentally running into a Multi-Shot Lightning Enchanted mini-boss in a Hell Cows run. ZAP. Dead.

Oh man, good times. :)

Is Diablo 2 Battle.net even running anymore?

Templarion
08-13-2010, 12:45 PM
Yeah. Hardcore mode would bring DDO gaming totally to a new level.

Templarion
09-07-2010, 09:10 AM
Relatively old news but new for me.


Hardcore is definitely returning to Diablo III, but we haven’t decided what sort of special Battle.net features we’ll enable with it. We want to make sure that if you see a HC char on B.net, you’ll know they’re HC. It’s a status symbol, and it’s only one if you know. We’re looking for ways to reward players, and we’re sure we’ll have a set of HC achievements also.

Blizzard is actually paying some real attention to this matter. If a company that big is interested in the player potential of hardcore gaming, it cannot be a meaningless number. Read the quote again: They are going to make own achievements etc. for permadeath players only.

I am not asking for that much. I just want a checkbox to the character creation which disables the resurrection system and the gaming community takes care of the rest.

If someone is interested in the original article about Diablo 3, it can be found here:
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/jay-wilson-interview-gamespot-au/

Karavek
09-07-2010, 10:42 AM
I really just cant see why people keep asking for things like this. In PnP it was only the very earliest levels where death threatened a character. It was right in the magical services section of any book raise dead from a local temple X amount of gold. Youd have to be playing on a very low magic, or being a very poor adventurer not to afford that service for a friend who fail in battle aiding you.

Items and spells to cheat death also existed in great numbers. Contingency spell anyone? Rings of regen, Techno magical grafting with built in autmatic potion dispensers, Dieing was not ever what the game was about. Gaining power to wipe out gods was. At least for my group.

It wasnt about min maxxing or meta gaming either it was about portraying truly epic heroes worthy of bards tales. You dont hear songs a century later about the group that vanished without a trace into the red dragons lair, well not as more then a sad short tragedy.

No you hear about the brave warrior who did battle with the red wyrm single handedly while the wizard stood between the town and the erupting volcane the wyrm had unleashed.

The dairing Rogue who risked death countless times to sneak through the dragons maze to steal his phylactry and discovering the dragon was in fact a dracolich in disguise.WHo in turn brought the artifact back to the Druid who communing with nature calmed the raging mountain.

And finally all was right with the world, not because some half wit children with ail and bastard swords who wanted to play adventurer.

The failing of DDO is its a ridiculous grind with little real content forcing us to play what is there over and over. the fans defend the game and refuse to admit it was made in to small a scale. A huge far spread world with many cities was needed for a D&D game but never will come.

Vanguard for all its bugs and poor combat system had the world, crafting, RP, and so much more.

Had DDO and vanguard merged the D20 rules and classes then perhaps we all would see the D&D online each dreams of.

Until then just accept DDO will keep being pulled in the direction of casual as that is what is needed for an FTP game to attract the most regular amount of new players.

Memnir
09-07-2010, 10:57 AM
No thank you. I see little/no value in creating a subset of rules that only might appeal to only a certain subset of gamer. Waste of time.

Templarion
11-02-2010, 10:00 AM
I just wanted to bump this once more and see if opinions has changed any bit.

Joseph
11-02-2010, 10:08 AM
While I would love to have a PD set of rules where you could (even if you had to buy it fro the DDO store - hello - cash cow Turbine) where you could start with some benefit (I don't know what, but there used to be a MUD I payed ages ago where you got a benefit from choosing PD), I just don't see it working in DDO as it is currently implemented (how many players would complain they had died due to lag and lost a point or two of con because of it).

With that in mind - PD players police themselves. If not, the it is like a high school football player being a linebacker on the little league team and cheering how he or she crushed his opponents :)

Just my two cents. I think PD is good the way it is - and really, it builds a stronger PD community.

Talltale-Storyteller
11-02-2010, 10:33 AM
I just wanted to bump this once more and see if opinions has changed any bit.

If DDO Forums were hardcore this thread would still be dead. :) J/k


Seriously though. I have to agree with Duncan said back in Sept. Just join a PD guild. Turbine will probably not implememnt this as a relatively small percentage of the playerbase wants it. I WOULD like to see a hardcore server that allowed for things like permanent stat damage and the like, but honestly that will never happen either. Most players are casual, and thats where their money is. Your best bet is to join a guild that has a rule set that you find challenging and play there.

You say that you think you would cheat but honestly you probably wouldn't. How can you lie about dying when 5 of your guildies just saw you go *ding* ? You can't. Have you tried any of the PD guilds, and if so which ones? I'll welcome you to come roll a toon on Thelanis in the Sublime. You should try playing with what IS available first before trying to get a developer to implement major changes.

Just my 2cp.

DSC
11-02-2010, 02:23 PM
I think that people underestimate the number of people who would use a "Hardcore" feature (or especially server) - while it's surprising, some people enjoy the extra thrill of danger, but also want to have the confidence that others are following the same rules or the bragging rights that go with "proof".

Especially now that DDO has gone F2P I can see a lot of people trying it, though most of them would only try it briefly. A smaller but significant subset would pursue it as their main way of playing.


I wouldn't hold your breath, though. A number of current PD players are actively hostile to the notion of a PD ruleset - notice all the hate you've gotten for even suggesting the idea.



On the other hand, I'm sure many players (again, including me :D) would like a "hardcore mode/server"

A grittier server would be truly awesome, but sadly that's so much harder to code that we also can't expect it.

Missing_Minds
11-02-2010, 02:38 PM
I just wanted to bump this once more and see if opinions has changed any bit.

Nope, not at all. To create such a server would require more funds than what you are thinking through, let alone if you can't be honest yourself, why should Turbine make you be honest?

On top of that you'd have "lag" cases such to where people will get ticked off for "invalid death" and no way to restore the character. No, this is too much of a can of worms for them to deal with 4 years into the games existence.


A grittier server would be truly awesome, but sadly that's so much harder to code that we also can't expect it.

Easy work around. Only run elite, or on any non elite run you must have a full party.

I'm not saying you have to have active people at the desks, but a full party within the quest. (yeah, multipule accounts) this way you have no scaling factor working for you. Do NOT use hirelings. The result is not the same effect.

Talltale-Storyteller
11-02-2010, 02:41 PM
I think that people underestimate the number of people who would use a "Hardcore" feature (or especially server) - while it's surprising, some people enjoy the extra thrill of danger, but also want to have the confidence that others are following the same rules or the bragging rights that go with "proof".

Especially now that DDO has gone F2P I can see a lot of people trying it, though most of them would only try it briefly. A smaller but significant subset would pursue it as their main way of playing.


I wouldn't hold your breath, though. A number of current PD players are actively hostile to the notion of a PD ruleset - notice all the hate you've gotten for even suggesting the idea.




A grittier server would be truly awesome, but sadly that's so much harder to code that we also can't expect it.

Its not hate, its realism. lol. Look MV is a well known PD guild. The Sublime is also a well known PD guild. Both guilds have very different different philosophies on what PD play should look like, or about what their goals are. There is a REASON for having so many different guilds.

Its because we are all elitist snobs.

J/K! No but seriously if you can't even get the current PD community to agree, I don't see all the PD guild disbanding to go play PD on the PD server (should they make one).


Lastly. If the OP has not tried playing in any of the existing PD guilds, or tried playing in a PD static, then there is little basis for an argument for this style of gameplay. If playing PD was a priority then the gamer would play PD, just that simple. Its not "hate" its a simple observation: if somebody says they want to see a PD server, but they don't even play in a PD guild, then what sort of credibility do they have?

(None of this is meant to be derogatory towards the OP, or any other poster - I am simply making a point.)

Chai
11-02-2010, 03:34 PM
I think that people underestimate the number of people who would use a "Hardcore" feature (or especially server) - while it's surprising, some people enjoy the extra thrill of danger, but also want to have the confidence that others are following the same rules or the bragging rights that go with "proof".

Especially now that DDO has gone F2P I can see a lot of people trying it, though most of them would only try it briefly. A smaller but significant subset would pursue it as their main way of playing.


I wouldn't hold your breath, though. A number of current PD players are actively hostile to the notion of a PD ruleset - notice all the hate you've gotten for even suggesting the idea.




A grittier server would be truly awesome, but sadly that's so much harder to code that we also can't expect it.

Hardly.

I think you can attract a decent number of people to the idea, however, it likely will not even total up to 1% of the player population in DDO who stick with it for longer than 60 days. This is a high end estimate. Why would Turbine spend the resources again? Its not harder to code, but its likely resource intensive, with no promise of any return.

Parmadeath is not a large faction, and has never been a majority faction in any interface I have played Dungeons and Dragons on, all the way back to PnP. When we start bantering rulesets, what you call hate, I call disagreement.

So here we have less than 1% of the total population of DDO, a severe minority faction at best, and most of us cant agree on what ruleset within that minority we want to play under. I dont call this hate. I attribute this to the same mentality of telling 20 people to roll up a fighter and turn in their character sheets tomorrow. Tomorrow I will end up with 20 completely different fighter characters. This is why I <LOVE> DnD, not hate it. The adversity and diversity should be celebrated, and not scorned.

I know people who roll up a character than never roll a dice again - going to a warehouse in central Madison Wi to enact all encounters the character will face live. I know people who play DnD as a tactics based miniature figurine game with a graphed out map and a pile of books. I know people who play DnD as a internet turn based MUD, as a RTS game, and obviously, as NWN and DDO.

PDers had an easier time in NWN than in DDO, because we were able to create our own servers. I had over 700 accounts on mine and PD ravenloft went over 1000 accounts. There was no need to play against the games intended design, because if I wanted hard core permadeath, I designed for it.

My server had more than 10 random zones for each dungeon entrance. That means each time you walk into the same cave, you may face a different map. Each zone had 5 or 6 grids of random traps and mob spawns. Metagaming? Not like you see in DDO. I also removed the respawn screen on character death. If you didnt get a raise in a certain period of time, your corpse decayed and all your items fell to the ground for anyone, INCLUDING THE MOBS, to grab. Imagine logging on a different toon to try to loot your stuff, and seeing a lizardman holding your flaming weapon, with your shield equipped, while his friend aims your old fireball wand in your direction. Players could rest anywhere they wanted, once every 2 in game hours. Sound hard core enough for you? Also take into account rolling your HP at every level. Rangers dont get 8 hp per level, they get 1d8 hp - no one got 20 add on hit points for level 1 either. If you were a wizard with 14 con it was not uncommon to have 5 or 6 hp at level 1. Nearing hard core yet?

When you start talking about PD in DDO - which is an MMO, the first obvious fact is that we dont have control over the design. Since DnD is a hugely diverse community, you have many different playstyles. Even delving into a minority niche playstyle such as PD, you will encounter many different versions of how it is played, due to different people having a different preference.

You call it hate, I say welcome to DnD, the non cookie cutter game that can be played many different ways, and many times no two ways look, walk or talk the same. We can either celebrate this diversity, or scoff at it, and go back to WOW where every paladin wears the same purple armor and hits for the same amount of damage.

Balls in your court...

Cabronsisimo
11-02-2010, 04:47 PM
What i disliked was the way to have it implemented, 'just add a checkbox' :S
Just like they added 'cant hit party members at tavern' and thats our PVP! Simly-done doesnt cut it.
If a feature is to be implemented, the most angles and variations covered, the better.

Missing_Minds
11-02-2010, 05:41 PM
Sides, if it were truly hardcore... you would have friendly fire.

Chai
11-02-2010, 05:57 PM
Sides, if it were truly hardcore... you would have friendly fire.

I could make an evasion toon and intim kite mobs through their own blade barriers, and stand next to them when they shoot fireballs and other 1 shot AE spells. :p

Talltale-Storyteller
11-02-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't play PD to be hardcore, I just enjoy that it makes accomplishment mean something other than time invested.

I'm with the USMC, I get my hardcore fix IRL.

I just think that when success in the game is determined mostly by time invested into it (grinding for gear anyone?) then the game stops being fun and starts being work. For me PD is not a grind, but a progression, and thats why I play it.

dTarkanan
11-02-2010, 06:20 PM
I'm pretty sure that an MMO (was it LotRO?) had a title for those that didn't die. That status item alone caused so much hell for customer service, from complaints about people losing it to lag, or to bugs, or to griefing, that it was soon dropped from the game. So imagine that tenfold when it comes to potentially losing hundreds of hours invested in a toon.

I see numerous issues with this; but an obvious one to me is it doesn't make financial sense for Turbine. Unlike Battle.net, much of Turbine's income is on a subscription basis- losing a favourite toon or a main would be enough for many people to rageunsub, I imagine- alot of what keeps people here is the time invested in progressing and advancing their toons.

Templarion
11-03-2010, 04:44 AM
Don't start hardcore toon if you can't take the pain when it dies.

Because they all eventually die if you play long enough.

Customer service complaints could be avoided with big flashy warnings when the player is about to enable the mode during character creation.

~Zornochio
11-03-2010, 04:42 PM
Customer service complaints could be avoided with big flashy warnings when the player is about to enable the mode during character creation.

You mean like how content that is harmful, abusive, threatening, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, obscene, infringing, embarrassing, unwanted, invasive of another’s right of privacy or publicity, hateful or racially, or ethnically offensive (such as ethnic slurs and religious epithets) or, in a reasonable person’s view, otherwise offensive or objectionable (such as offensive or objectionable character names, guild names, pet names, in-game labels, titles, descriptions, or inscriptions) is avoided by a big warning you have to click on when you install/update the game?

:D

Templarion
11-04-2010, 01:55 PM
You mean like how content that is harmful, abusive, threatening, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, obscene, infringing, embarrassing, unwanted, invasive of another’s right of privacy or publicity, hateful or racially, or ethnically offensive (such as ethnic slurs and religious epithets) or, in a reasonable person’s view, otherwise offensive or objectionable (such as offensive or objectionable character names, guild names, pet names, in-game labels, titles, descriptions, or inscriptions) is avoided by a big warning you have to click on when you install/update the game?

:D

Something like that. Yeah. =)

Missing_Minds
11-04-2010, 02:08 PM
I'm pretty sure that an MMO (was it LotRO?) had a title for those that didn't die.

The titles stopped at lvl 15 at "undying" if I recall correctly. Back before the xp adjustment, it could be considered a bit of a challenge if you weren't careful. Now... at level 15, the title, imo, is a joke.

Also titles do nothing for the character. Just something to show off.

Missing_Minds
11-04-2010, 02:08 PM
I could make an evasion toon and intim kite mobs through their own blade barriers, and stand next to them when they shoot fireballs and other 1 shot AE spells. :p

You know... I'd have to start soloing just for that. :)

dTarkanan
11-04-2010, 03:15 PM
Also titles do nothing for the character. Just something to show off. Of course... but from the stories I heard that didn't stop rampant complaint issues revolving lag spikes, griefing, etc. etc.

Chai
11-04-2010, 03:23 PM
You mean like how content that is harmful, abusive, threatening, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, libelous, obscene, infringing, embarrassing, unwanted, invasive of another’s right of privacy or publicity, hateful or racially, or ethnically offensive (such as ethnic slurs and religious epithets) or, in a reasonable person’s view, otherwise offensive or objectionable (such as offensive or objectionable character names, guild names, pet names, in-game labels, titles, descriptions, or inscriptions) is avoided by a big warning you have to click on when you install/update the game?

:D

Bwahahahahahahahahahaw!!!!'

That wasnt a warning dude. That was a guild invite, with a complete list of requirements. Now hit accept, and come join the rodeo already!!

Postumus
11-04-2010, 03:58 PM
I think that people underestimate the number of people who would use a "Hardcore" feature (or especially server) -


I would use it. Simply a hardcore choice box per quest where it disabled the shrines should be very simple to code since the feature is already used to limit shrining in elite quests.

Shrines are practically unnecessary anyway, since potions, wands, hirelings, and scrolls are so readily available.


But again, just the mention of this topic, brings the same dozen or so forum members out of the wood-work lambasting the idea when they should be supporting it because:

1- It would be a step CLOSER to PnP and away from Diablo.

2- It would be an actual challenge for experienced players.

3- In lieu of sorting through the monotonous grinding whinefest that get posted daily about failed this and that (and nobody really cares b/c the only thing you lost was your time), we'd get to read really fantastic diatribes about how this party killed Uberl337Joe's character. It wouldn't just be meaningless drama, it would be passionate, gut wrenching hate and loathing! It would be KhyberdramaX1000!

Postumus
11-04-2010, 04:01 PM
Of course... but from the stories I heard that didn't stop rampant complaint issues revolving lag spikes, griefing, etc. etc.


Yeah, just think how different the forum would be from the way it is now!

dTarkanan
11-04-2010, 04:11 PM
I mean complaints in the sense of actual petitions to turbine taking up their time; would you rather they develop new content or spend their time adjudicating whether losses of character were justified or not?

Talltale-Storyteller
11-04-2010, 04:15 PM
I would use it. Simply a hardcore choice box per quest where it disabled the shrines should be very simple to code since the feature is already used to limit shrining in elite quests.

Shrines are practically unnecessary anyway, since potions, wands, hirelings, and scrolls are so readily available.


But again, just the mention of this topic, brings the same dozen or so forum members out of the wood-work lambasting the idea when they should be supporting it because:

1- It would be a step CLOSER to PnP and away from Diablo.

2- It would be an actual challenge for experienced players.


And yet again nobody addresses the basic simple question:

If this is important to the player, why aren't they already self-enforcing it or playing in a PD group or Guild?


The answer, ultimately, is because it isn't THAT important to the player, and if its not THAT important to the player - then why should it be to Turbine?

If anyone can refute this simple logic then I would support it whole-heartedly - but from where I sit it seems the majority of people that say they want this don't even play PD.

They like the IDEA of PD, but not enough to display the self-discipline not to police themselves?


I'm not trying to be rude - just being blunt.

Talltale-Storyteller
11-04-2010, 04:21 PM
I would use it. Simply a hardcore choice box per quest where it disabled the shrines should be very simple to code since the feature is already used to limit shrining in elite quests.

Shrines are practically unnecessary anyway, since potions, wands, hirelings, and scrolls are so readily available.


But again, just the mention of this topic, brings the same dozen or so forum members out of the wood-work lambasting the idea when they should be supporting it because:

1- It would be a step CLOSER to PnP and away from Diablo.

2- It would be an actual challenge for experienced players.

3- In lieu of sorting through the monotonous grinding whinefest that get posted daily about failed this and that (and nobody really cares b/c the only thing you lost was your time), we'd get to read really fantastic diatribes about how this party killed Uberl337Joe's character. It wouldn't just be meaningless drama, it would be passionate, gut wrenching hate and loathing! It would be KhyberdramaX1000!

Also it seems like you are referring to disabling the use of REST shrines, but the thread is about dying and losing the character.

Postumus
11-04-2010, 04:32 PM
Hardly.

I think you can attract a decent number of people to the idea, however, it likely will not even total up to 1% of the player population in DDO who stick with it for longer than 60 days. This is a high end estimate. .


I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you Chai, I just want to know what you are basing your estimate on?


Why 1%? Why no longer than 60 days? If you have any hard data, I'd love to see it. If this is just your gut feeling, then I respect it, but disagree.


I think a hardcore option for quests (no shrines, rez only through spells/magic devices/abilities, increased favor, increased XP bonus) would be used more frequently by long-term players, and I think a lot more than 1 in 100 players would use it on a regular basis - not on EVERY quest, but use it regularly.


I'd guess at least 10-15% of the player base would use the hardcore option on a regular basis. Of course that is just a guess not based on any hard data so...

Postumus
11-04-2010, 04:35 PM
Also it seems like you are referring to disabling the use of REST shrines, but the thread is about dying and losing the character.

Sorry if I was unclear. I meant disabling both shrines, so an in quest death= permanent death and character elimination unless the character can be raised in quest through spells, abilities, or magical devices.

Talltale-Storyteller
11-04-2010, 04:40 PM
I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you Chai, I just want to know what you are basing your estimate on?


Why 1%? Why no longer than 60 days? If you have any hard data, I'd love to see it. If this is just your gut feeling, then I respect it, but disagree.


I think a hardcore option for quests (no shrines, rez only through spells/magic devices/abilities, increased favor, increased XP bonus) would be used more frequently by long-term players, and I think a lot more than 1 in 100 players would use it on a regular basis - not on EVERY quest, but use it regularly.


I'd guess at least 10-15% of the player base would use the hardcore option on a regular basis. Of course that is just a guess not based on any hard data so...

Chai is basing it off of the FACT that most people who try PD now do not stick with it.

You would be shocked to look at the Sublime roster of unplayed characters.


Also - the thread was about being able to toggle it at toon creation, not at each quest entrance. What is the point of playing a PD toon if you don't run everything as PD on it? Thats basically the same as joining a PD guild and then not obeying the guilds rules about raises lol.

Falco_Easts
11-04-2010, 09:16 PM
I would like it this way:
- when you go to any quest you can choose not only quest level (Normal, Hard, Elite), but also be able check an option for Permanent death mode
- but Permanent death mode should give some bonus, like +50% XP or double XP
- and Permanent death mode should be picked only once per quest level (i.e. 3 times per each quest).
- and repeating quest penalty should apply as it is now (i.e. no change here)

You know, this idea I could support. Make it another quest difficutly. Add a confirmation box that you really really really wish to enter this dungeon on Permadeath mode but add some rewards. I would only allow it once per quest however. Quest level is set at hard. Your shot at dungeon is blown on entry. You recall out, you don't get to try it on Permadeath again.