PDA

View Full Version : EPIC End Rewards



Cyr
07-22-2010, 03:38 PM
It's time to finally fix how end rewards work Turbine.

With the change to renown as yet another system that looks at quest level the end rewards need to properly reflect the level of the quest on the difficulty you ran it on.

Epic end rewards truly need to be EPIC.

* In addition to properly scaling the rewards based upon difficulty the end reward lists should include a large chance at one of the epic scrolls that drop in that quest. The DQ raid should have all DQ scrolls on the list as a chance.

*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.

Gol
07-22-2010, 03:45 PM
I could nitpick over some details, but otherwise...

/signed

Cyr
07-22-2010, 03:46 PM
I could nitpick over some details, but otherwise...

/signed

nitpick away the best ideas are ones that are adjusted based upon feedback.

Cetus
07-22-2010, 03:50 PM
I'd edit that a bit as well, but I'm at work you got the jist of it.

/signed and stamped

protokon
07-22-2010, 04:01 PM
...wait a second.

you mean you aren't happy to pick out those treasures from the lvl 5 loot table for doing the lvl 25 dungeon?

h4x0r1f1c
07-22-2010, 04:02 PM
/signed

Tarrant
07-22-2010, 04:03 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Cyr
07-22-2010, 04:04 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Great print out the post and bring it to the next meeting that options are being discussed at :P

Gol
07-22-2010, 04:09 PM
*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.


nitpick away the best ideas are ones that are adjusted based upon feedback.
I think you should have separate epic and non-epic raid timers as well, but I think that an epic completions should count towards both.

I'd like to see the epic 20ths (at 20/40/60/...) contain a list of nothing but epic items, just like the normal list, only with the epic versions, plus any non-standard shard/seal items (such as +4 tomes, and as in VoN, it should also have the helm and the Red armor shard). If you do 20 epic raids, it's about time you get some epic loot. It binds to character like normal but unlike the shards and seals.

protokon
07-22-2010, 04:11 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Thanks for the response Tarrant, as a player who spends quite a bit of time doing epics, that is a change I will look forward to.

Cyr
07-22-2010, 04:16 PM
I think you should have separate epic and non-epic raid timers as well, but I think that an epic completions should count towards both.

I'd like to see the epic 20ths (at 20/40/60/...) contain a list of nothing but epic items, just like the normal list, only with the epic versions, plus any non-standard shard/seal items (such as +4 tomes, and as in VoN, it should also have the helm and the Red armor shard). If you do 20 epic raids, it's about time you get some epic loot. It binds to character like normal but unlike the shards and seals.

I would have no object to 'full' epic items appearing on the 20th completion lists.

The only reason why I had the no advancment to non epic for epic completions thing was to prevent the situation where the two lists line up for 20 completions on the same completion. There are various ways to get around this such as the epic list takes priority and the next list is the non epic 20 completion etc... but I kind of just took the one I thought might be the easiest to code and least likely to result in a really annoying bug like getting a normal completion list on your 20th epic list and losing out on the epic list.

bobbryan2
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
I'm not a huge fan of epic scrolls being the things on end rewards... It seems like it should be seals on normal epic quests and shards on epic raids and capstone quets.

They should just up the scroll rate to be a little more reasonable in problem areas like the desert (and DQ2 drops)

LordPiglet
07-22-2010, 04:33 PM
It's time to finally fix how end rewards work Turbine.

With the change to renown as yet another system that looks at quest level the end rewards need to properly reflect the level of the quest on the difficulty you ran it on.

Epic end rewards truly need to be EPIC.

* In addition to properly scaling the rewards based upon difficulty the end reward lists should include a large chance at one of the epic scrolls that drop in that quest. The DQ raid should have all DQ scrolls on the list as a chance.

*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.

So if it doesn't advance your normal completion timer on the raids, does this mean you'd have an epic timer and a normal timer. IE, I can go run DQ elite, then reform and hit it on Epic?

mudfud
07-22-2010, 04:33 PM
It's time to finally fix how end rewards work Turbine.

With the change to renown as yet another system that looks at quest level the end rewards need to properly reflect the level of the quest on the difficulty you ran it on.

Epic end rewards truly need to be EPIC.

* In addition to properly scaling the rewards based upon difficulty the end reward lists should include a large chance at one of the epic scrolls that drop in that quest. The DQ raid should have all DQ scrolls on the list as a chance.

*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.

It's good thinking but takes into account that alot will be abused. For instance short quests. Why reward someone an 'epic' like reward for completing epic big top in 5 minutes because they just cast jump till the end of quest. Or invis in a few other epic quests where they can just run to the end. The list goes on and on where each quest on epic has its own little 'trick' to beating it makes a person not want to epic unless with friends who wont abuse it.

The only way I'd see myself agreeing with something like that would be if they actually fixed most of the quests to not make them 'fast'. Sure some call it tactics but others call it a cheap win because of poor development or a development oversight.

h4x0r1f1c
07-22-2010, 04:34 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Good because I don't run epics because I never get anything good from them.

They're difficult to do sometimes and when ya' do them nothing special at all. Just junk you sell to a vendor. At least something not-so-great but cool enough to sell in the Auction House or throw on a lowbie?

Give us something guaranteed to be good. Maybe.. upon doing an epic 5 times you'll be guaranteed a +3 tome?

Those aren't that great anyway I mean you can easily get a +2 and a +3 is just going to be like 1 DC higher to w/e you got or something. I mean you'll just correct the odd value with an exceptional here or by taking/adding an enhancement there.

How come you guys make +3 tomes so hard to get? That's the only reason people freak out about them lol

Epic quests not giving good stuff is why a lot of people don't play on their level 20s much except for grieving people in PvP.

shaolaolint
07-22-2010, 04:37 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Good to hear. :)

Trillea
07-22-2010, 04:40 PM
Good because I don't run epics because I never get anything good from them.

They're difficult to do sometimes and when ya' do them nothing special at all. Just junk you sell to a vendor. At least something not-so-great but cool enough to sell in the Auction House or throw on a lowbie?

Give us something guaranteed to be good. Maybe.. upon doing an epic 5 times you'll be guaranteed a +3 tome?

Those aren't that great anyway I mean you can easily get a +2 and a +3 is just going to be like 1 DC higher to w/e you got or something. I mean you'll just correct the odd value with an exceptional here or by taking/adding an enhancement there.

How come you guys make +3 tomes so hard to get? That's the only reason people freak out about them lol

Epic quests not giving good stuff is why a lot of people don't play on their level 20s much except for grieving people in PvP.

+3 and higher tomes should never be easy to get.

The tome balance is just about right now IMO. +1s fairly easy to find, +2s available with grinding. Anything more would unbalance the game even more.

Sarezar
07-22-2010, 04:40 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

If you give 20 completion rewards for Epic quests, can we please have an /equest completions just for epic quests? Having all of them in /quest completions would be a very very very long list...

GlorkTheInvader
07-22-2010, 04:44 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/AjaxUD/Emoticons/hug.gif

soupertc
07-22-2010, 04:55 PM
Make both chest in Epic DQ raid drop Seals too much like the Dragon raid does. Remove the normal desert loot from warded chest as it bites into the chance for Shards IMO and give me a chance to see scrolls and Shards(hell they even be bound to character for all I care) in end list for 20/40/60...etc completions and I'll be a happy camper!!!!

Solmage
07-22-2010, 05:00 PM
It's time to finally fix how end rewards work Turbine.

With the change to renown as yet another system that looks at quest level the end rewards need to properly reflect the level of the quest on the difficulty you ran it on.

Epic end rewards truly need to be EPIC.

* In addition to properly scaling the rewards based upon difficulty the end reward lists should include a large chance at one of the epic scrolls that drop in that quest. The DQ raid should have all DQ scrolls on the list as a chance.

*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.

/signed

Yes, please, pretty much what we have all been saying in some form or another. Details need to be addressed but whatever, let's do this:

- Reward for 20th completions are a must-have, really. This is a huge turn off, since you sometimes feel that after 100 runs you are still not any closer to completing the one item you really wanted.

- Scrolls: PLEASE Add a message to [Loot]: with the information of who picked up which scroll. The current mechanic alone ruined grouping for epics due to scroll thieves.

- I love the idea of getting a couple of the scrolls as a quests' end reward. I really do.

BDS
07-22-2010, 06:13 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Thank you, please keep us updated on any information about this. The epic grind as it is now can be pretty severe unless you run with a static group that are willing to pass each other things. Like a lot of the ideas the OP presented and I hope you consider implements some of them.

Pyromaniac
07-22-2010, 06:27 PM
My favorite epic end reward from Partycrashers was a +1 rapier.

sephiroth1084
07-22-2010, 07:01 PM
I'm not a huge fan of epic scrolls being the things on end rewards... It seems like it should be seals on normal epic quests and shards on epic raids and capstone quets.

They should just up the scroll rate to be a little more reasonable in problem areas like the desert (and DQ2 drops)
Scroll drop rates should definitely be increased. The current figures of around 1 in 200 or more is ludicrously low.

Pyromaniac
07-22-2010, 07:54 PM
I would like to see an option of shards/scrolls/seals on everything. Some shards are almost as bad as scrolls to get.

wemery73
07-22-2010, 08:00 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

/signed and stamped

Samadhi
07-22-2010, 08:41 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Please include the red dragon helm in said talks.

sirgog
07-22-2010, 11:08 PM
Really like the OP's idea.

A possible solution to the '20th Epic run is 20th completion' dilemma is to have a separate end reward giver for the Epic version, or alternately, it could be handled through collectibles or other tokens that we turn in 20 of to get a reward list.

IMO the list for a 20th Epic raid completion should always contain the following:

1 random BTC +4 tome
1 random BTA +3 tome
1 random *complete* Epic item that you could have got a piece of in that raid
1 random Augment Crystal
2 random Shards that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Seals that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Scrolls that could have dropped in that raid
A +5000 or +10000 renown token

Monkey_Archer
07-22-2010, 11:41 PM
/signed

I would definitely like to see scrolls, seals and shards as quest specific end rewards either as a random chance per list, or after a certain # of completions.

Quests that dont drops shards, like sentinels sides/von1-4 could have a list of seals/scrolls only, while the end quests like von 6, and tides turn could have a list of shards, but no seals/scrolls. OOB, Chains, Wizking and DQ2 could have a chance to drop scrolls, seals and shards for items specific to the quest.

ADQ1, IMO, should be explorer items only. By far the hardest shards to find in the desert are for explorer items and i think the drop rate should be increased for this quest specifically, since you cant enter the explorer area on epic difficulty.

Celestialbeast
07-23-2010, 12:07 AM
Really like the OP's idea.

A possible solution to the '20th Epic run is 20th completion' dilemma is to have a separate end reward giver for the Epic version, or alternately, it could be handled through collectibles or other tokens that we turn in 20 of to get a reward list.

IMO the list for a 20th Epic raid completion should always contain the following:

1 random BTC +4 tome
1 random BTA +3 tome
1 random *complete* Epic item that you could have got a piece of in that raid
1 random Augment Crystal
2 random Shards that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Seals that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Scrolls that could have dropped in that raid
A +5000 or +10000 renown token

+1 After I'm off Rep timer. I may not have run epics yet but I am making an Epic Ready Barbarian (Assuming I"m good enough) to complete his level 20 items.

And after reading all the Horror stories about Epic this would be absolutely perfect to help ease my.... uneasiness.

PS I know my Rep won't hit for much but hey, only trolls are counting how hard it hits, right? :D

thisgamesull
07-23-2010, 12:33 AM
/Signed

Ollathir
07-23-2010, 12:42 AM
I believe since running Epic quests are locked for all but level 20, the mechanics should be in place to offer more level appropriate rewards.
It could be random generated loot end rewards ML20, or something special drops, not necessarily +3 and +4 tomes or scroll,shard or seal or even the named loot item,(this could be reserved for a 20/40/60 run reward), but posibly a Flawless Siberys Dragonshard or Large Eberron Dragonshard Fragments or something of the like, (really any addition should be welcome).

Another way of improving the loot drop could be to add a different type of collectable token,(prefferably stackable fitting in ingred bag), to all Epic end chests that can be traded with the quest giver for an exceptional Epic based reward, collect or turn in 20 for your pick of end reward. (Sort of like the Reavers Refuge set-up only not hidden.) Complications I see there would be the tokens would have to be Quest specific, as with IQ and they can take up quite a bit of space. Or not. They could be identical to the Epic dungeon tokens, so long as you collect 20, your can turn them into quest giver or someone for your pick of something.



So if it doesn't advance your normal completion timer on the raids, does this mean you'd have an epic timer and a normal timer. IE, I can go run DQ elite, then reform and hit it on Epic?

I think thats how it should work. Currently Epic raid timers are shorter than Normal raid timers, so the mechanics are there to seperate the two instances, they just need to be independent or treated as different quests to make this a posibility.

Fafnir
07-23-2010, 12:55 AM
I personally don't need to see a whole epic item, but I'd sure like a healthy, long list of shards/seals/items to choose from.

FaSo
07-23-2010, 12:57 AM
Really like the OP's idea.

A possible solution to the '20th Epic run is 20th completion' dilemma is to have a separate end reward giver for the Epic version, or alternately, it could be handled through collectibles or other tokens that we turn in 20 of to get a reward list.

IMO the list for a 20th Epic raid completion should always contain the following:

1 random BTC +4 tome
1 random BTA +3 tome
1 random *complete* Epic item that you could have got a piece of in that raid
1 random Augment Crystal
2 random Shards that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Seals that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Scrolls that could have dropped in that raid
A +5000 or +10000 renown token

+1
i love this idea, would make it a heck of alot easyer to get epic items

Spisey
07-23-2010, 01:41 AM
+1 Sir.

That would be an exact list that would keep me running epics. :D

sirgog
07-23-2010, 02:07 AM
+1
i love this idea, would make it a heck of alot easyer to get epic items

IMO it wouldn't be much easier, but you would know that every run, you are making progress.

Presently most Epic runs you make no progress toward making your particular Epic item, except for tokens (and the items you would bother spending tokens to upgrade are all good enough to warrant using without the token upgrades, most of which are pretty minor.).

butlerfamilywa
07-23-2010, 02:14 AM
Really like the OP's idea.

A possible solution to the '20th Epic run is 20th completion' dilemma is to have a separate end reward giver for the Epic version, or alternately, it could be handled through collectibles or other tokens that we turn in 20 of to get a reward list.

IMO the list for a 20th Epic raid completion should always contain the following:

1 random BTC +4 tome
1 random BTA +3 tome
1 random *complete* Epic item that you could have got a piece of in that raid
1 random Augment Crystal
2 random Shards that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Seals that could have dropped in that raid
2 random Scrolls that could have dropped in that raid
A +5000 or +10000 renown token

1) Agreed.
2) BTC +3 Tome, Agreed ~ It is THAT character that completes the 20 runs after all.
3) NEVER give a random COMPLETE Epic Item.. sorry, but that takes away the point of running Epics.
4) Pointless.
5) Agreed.
6) Agreed.
7) Not Signed. Scrolls are way too easy to get at this point anyways.
8) 5,000?? 10,000??? are you serious? 2,000 or 3,000 I could MAYBE see... (You're not supposted to be Guild Level 100 over night)

Yes, I run Epics often, (5 level 20's currently that I keep on timers). Thats 5 bigtops, Party Crashers, Snitches, BOB, OOB, ect, DAILY...

5x bigtops = 30 mins or less.
5x Party Crashers = 1hrs time
5x Snitches = 1 Hrs time (at most)
5x BoB = 30 Mins or less.
5x OoB = 1hr or so...

Yes, I'm a Power Gamer, No I don't believe that I play too much :D

However I do believe that the Epic Content is the only grind we have left. I can understand House P's items being as crappy as they are.. considering the lack of investment you have to put in to get the items. What is it, 9 items?

Anyways.. Like I was saying, most of that I agree with, because it would make Epic Item Grinding a hell of a lot easier.. but there are a few points that were listed I don't agree with. Renowned in the amount of 5k, 10k? No.

kaelis
07-23-2010, 05:19 AM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Do it T.



C'mon.


Edit; post above me.

Try true reincarnating. It's a grind but its kinda fun :)

twizznach
07-23-2010, 05:29 AM
/signed

Desteria
07-23-2010, 09:55 AM
It's time to finally fix how end rewards work Turbine.

With the change to renown as yet another system that looks at quest level the end rewards need to properly reflect the level of the quest on the difficulty you ran it on.

Epic end rewards truly need to be EPIC.

* In addition to properly scaling the rewards based upon difficulty the end reward lists should include a large chance at one of the epic scrolls that drop in that quest. The DQ raid should have all DQ scrolls on the list as a chance.

*Additionally all epic quests should have a completion counter associated with them. Upon 20 completions the end reward list should be populated only with epic scrolls, epic shards, and epic seals that can be pulled from chests or dropped from mobs in that quest. Epic raids should work the same way with the additional comment that completing a raid on epic does not advance your normal raid completion counter and upon 10/30/50... completions you get the normal 20 raid completions list.

love the idea.

Side note wold really liek to see renown back on the end reward list for epics.

KKDragonLord
07-23-2010, 01:04 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)

Awesome =)

Will you also look into the Ninja Looting scrolls dilemma?

Scrolls should have a fairly good chance to drop from End chests or Rare loot chests instead of dropping from random mobs, in a way that does not conflict with the odds of getting Seals or unique items.

KKDragonLord
07-23-2010, 01:35 PM
I agree that with TR in the picture maybe Tomes could become a little bit easier to get, but i don't think it should be that much either. Tomes are special in a way that they shouldn't be on the same category as normal Epic quests loot.

As it is, Tomes are the only reason for characters who don't need any of the unique drops from the high level raids to go try running them on Hard or Elite, or running them 20 times.

The Shroud itself is devised in such a way that it makes no sense at all to run it on anything other than Normal, which is a real shame. I believe The Shroud should have a chance for +3 tomes drop in Hard or Elite, just like VoD or Hound. That chance could be a bit lower than those other raids because its level is lower and because there should be other greater incentives to run it, like significantly increased odds of getting power shards, or large ingredients as well.

The Abbot should also have a chance for +3 tomes on hard or elite because it is challenging enough for that and not that many people run it as it is. On a similar vein, +4 tomes should be restricted to Hard or Elite runs of ToD. Elite should always have higher drop rates than Hard for high level Raids.

And since Epic raids are generally easier (and shorter) than Epic quests, the Epic loot parts are quite enough as an incentive, (This will be different for the epic version of the high level raids ofc). So tomes should only be an option as 20th completion rewards for Raids, and 30-40th for Quests (as the OP suggested), not random loot.

The quest count for Epic quests and the Unbound, BTA and BTC modifiers are something that can be used to further categorize the Epic quests according to their challenge and duration.

We all know that some Epics take longer than others and if the rewards are on the same level people will avoid running the quests that take longer or use more resources unless they absolutely have to do it for a specific piece of loot.

The Epic Frag drops help in that sense, because they will happen more often in longer quests but their amounts should be adjusted to be more than a single frag per drop as well (which is madness). I also get that this is probably the greatest reason for scrolls to drop like they do but i am totally against Ninja looting so i don't think its the right way to go.

Canuckish
07-23-2010, 01:50 PM
I would like to add that it would be cool if the "unique" named loot from that quest was added to the completion list as well, for example do OOB and have a chance at a non-epic Spectral Gloves.

/signed.

Thechemicals
07-23-2010, 02:04 PM
Meh keep the epic equipment rare and difficult to get. No need to have an economy where everyone and there mother has an epic sword of killing all things living. You make epic equipment easy to get and all you have is veterans farming them all day long like robots, so they can sell them for 10 million pp

Carpone
07-23-2010, 02:15 PM
This is something we're talking about internally actually. We like the idea too. :)
Very happy to hear this! ML20 rewards and 20th reward completions would be most welcome. Gives yet another reason for folks to buy those adventure packs.

soupertc
07-23-2010, 02:20 PM
Meh keep the epic equipment rare and difficult to get. No need to have an economy where everyone and there mother has an epic sword of killing all things living. You make epic equipment easy to get and all you have is veterans farming them all day long like robots, so they can sell them for 10 million pp

Most likley if they get them as End Rewards they will be BtC or BtA. I like the fact that some of these items are very hard to get......but the ones in the desert itself is just crazy. The Dragon Items are pretty easy to get I don't really see a need to change that. But something needs to be done with the desert items droprates.

Cyr
07-23-2010, 02:31 PM
Meh keep the epic equipment rare and difficult to get. No need to have an economy where everyone and there mother has an epic sword of killing all things living. You make epic equipment easy to get and all you have is veterans farming them all day long like robots, so they can sell them for 10 million pp

Hi Welcome.

Every piece of completed epic gear is bound.

Completing quests at end game is what end game characters should be doing with their time. It seems counter intiutive to worry about adding useful end rewards when all this does is encourage them to actually complete quests and not engage in other methods of farming.

Thechemicals
07-23-2010, 03:35 PM
Hi Welcome.

Every piece of completed epic gear is bound.

Completing quests at end game is what end game characters should be doing with their time. It seems counter intiutive to worry about adding useful end rewards when all this does is encourage them to actually complete quests and not engage in other methods of farming.

So change the last part i said to "farmed until its so common that any guy in a pug will have epic gear"

Sorry but the story here doesnt change, make things easier to obtain changes the environment.I have played every significant mmo from UO to WoW and its always the same result when you begin to make rare not so rare. I dont need a hi or a welcome i been here for years, but thanks for coming.