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Silver_Darkness
07-21-2010, 03:07 AM
You select a god/goddess or none during character creation which give you special abilities, bonuses, and penalties Based on the Deity. Example#1: Worshipers of the Healing Goddess grants a 20% of being restore to full when incapacitated, +5 to heal skill, a 10% Discount on heal spells, 5% chance of being resurrected. Example#2 God of Destruction grant +3 to attack and +5 to damage, Destruction spell cast 3 time per rest, 35% of Implosion spell being cast at death,-5 heal skill, -5 diplomacy, heal spell cast by you heal 50% less.

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 03:12 AM
This is great. But only if Clerics can get it. Tweak it so that they won't be overpowered but make it so that it's still good.

Cylinwolf
07-21-2010, 03:33 AM
Or they could just add Domains.

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 03:35 AM
Or they could just add Domains.

Either is fine. Just add it!! Clerics feel so incomplete without them and FvS feels superior. I find it strange that this isn't gaining support.

honkuimushi
07-21-2010, 04:22 AM
One problem with that is that Eberron dieties aren't that neat and clean. Often, the pantheon is as important and the god and they are not as active as in other settings. In fact, there is very little objective proof that they even exist. I'm al for giving divine casters a little more customization, but giving something like that to every character seems like a poor fit for the setting. It would also make it very difficult to make most of the gods appealing. Look at Dragonmarks for an example of a similar problem.

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 04:33 AM
One problem with that is that Eberron dieties aren't that neat and clean. Often, the pantheon is as important and the god and they are not as active as in other settings. In fact, there is very little objective proof that they even exist. I'm al for giving divine casters a little more customization, but giving something like that to every character seems like a poor fit for the setting. It would also make it very difficult to make most of the gods appealing. Look at Dragonmarks for an example of a similar problem.

1) Give us Evil as an alignment.
2) Neat and Clean is not needed in a deity.
3) Worry about lawsuits and parents saying 'This game is the personification of EVIL!!' later.
4) Instead of Deities, how about Domains?
5) The gods ARE appealing. It's just that Turbine might be afraid to bring Gods/Goddess' into the game. Note that in D&D Angels and Demons were changed to Tieflings and whatnot due to 'Some people' who complained.

Xyzima
07-21-2010, 04:48 AM
well the silver flame exists. its a giant silver fire that burns in the Cathedral of the Silverflame in Flamekeep, Thrane, Khorvaire, where an immortal paladin, acts as the interpreter between the fire and followers, after she became immortal by merging with a couatl and the pillar of silver fire 700 years ago to stop the demon's from destroying/taking over the planet..

azrael4h
07-21-2010, 05:02 AM
Note that in D&D Angels and Demons were changed to Tieflings and whatnot due to 'Some people' who complained.

You are aware that Tieflings and Aasamir(or however it's spelled, not looking it up now) are the mortal half-breed offspring of either Demonic, or Celestial beings, which still exist fully in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e. 4e may be different.

Demons and "Angels", though they generally aren't generalized into those two titles, have been around since AD&D days.

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 05:09 AM
You are aware that Tieflings and Aasamir(or however it's spelled, not looking it up now) are the mortal half-breed offspring of either Demonic, or Celestial beings, which still exist fully in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e. 4e may be different.

Demons and "Angels", though they generally aren't generalized into those two titles, have been around since AD&D days.

I know but the words Angels and Demons were indeed changed to reflect this. Look it up, they changed it because they were afraid of 'those people' complaining. It's like editing out 'The Cross' in anime and games.

In an unrelated note, and I'm quoting myself for the third time today, here's the links for Domains/Deities.


I read up on Clerics and have found the answer. Clerics need their deities and domains. They're just not complete without it.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Domain
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Deity

I'll give the Devs as much time as they want. But they seriously need to consider making Clerics attractive again. Probably one of the reasons why domains/deities were not added because of the heavy emphasis on alignment. Also, we don't have Evil yet.

Sympl
07-21-2010, 05:27 AM
I don't often post, and haven't truely thought this out, so forgive me if it rambles a little....

Evil as an alignment poses a few difficulties right out of the box. RP-wise anyways. Unless I'm mistaken all the quests are geared towards good/neutral characters. An evil character just wouldn't jive going on a lot of these quests. Unless you watered down the alignment so that 'evil' just means selfish. Why save the prisoners when you can kill them after you kill their captors? Why free the Dragon on Korthos...who cares if people are dying, etc. To sum up....I highly doubt that evil as an alignment will ever be forthcoming.

On the other hand...

Domains are definitely lacking. And needed. In much the same way as Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil are currently non-available to PCs, just make the corresponding domains inaccessable as well. That's 6 available domains to choose from based on alignment. I'm just saying...

Xyzima
07-21-2010, 05:30 AM
You are aware that Tieflings and Aasamir(or however it's spelled, not looking it up now) are the mortal half-breed offspring of either Demonic, or Celestial beings, which still exist fully in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e. 4e may be different.

Demons and "Angels", though they generally aren't generalized into those two titles, have been around since AD&D days.

for semantics, Tieflings and Aassimar are 1/4 or so of their respective outsider type. not 1/2

Antheal
07-21-2010, 06:27 AM
Or they could just add Domains.

Pfft... What do you think this is, Dungeons & Dragons? :rolleyes:

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 06:37 AM
I don't often post, and haven't truely thought this out, so forgive me if it rambles a little....

Evil as an alignment poses a few difficulties right out of the box. RP-wise anyways. Unless I'm mistaken all the quests are geared towards good/neutral characters. An evil character just wouldn't jive going on a lot of these quests. Unless you watered down the alignment so that 'evil' just means selfish. Why save the prisoners when you can kill them after you kill their captors? Why free the Dragon on Korthos...who cares if people are dying, etc. To sum up....I highly doubt that evil as an alignment will ever be forthcoming.

On the other hand...

Domains are definitely lacking. And needed. In much the same way as Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil are currently non-available to PCs, just make the corresponding domains inaccessable as well. That's 6 available domains to choose from based on alignment. I'm just saying...

Alignment already plays no role in quests. As many will tell you, a lot of the quests are already evil-ish. Some examples include but are not limited to,

1) Restless Isles where you kill members of another bugbear tribe because one bugbear told you to. You did no background check, etc. Just killed because you were told to.

2) The Church and The Cult. You killed followers of the Sovereign Host because the Silver Flame told you to. I truly question the 'Good' involved in the Silver Flame. Even the 'so-called' bosses in the game had names like Forgiving or Merciful.

3) You demand rewards for items. 'Good' adventurers (like Paladins) would naturally not demand for rewards for their good deeds. After all, they're Lawful Good are they not?

And there are lots of other quests and reasons why 'Evil' in quests exist.

And to the people talking about Angels and Demons, apparently I was a little mistaken. I retract the previous comment on it (but will leave it up so people won't get confused). I will say, however, that this is one of the reasons why 'Evil' is not implemented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_dragons#Controversy_and_notoriety

Antheal
07-21-2010, 06:48 AM
Alignment already plays no role in quests. As many will tell you, a lot of the quests are already evil-ish. Some examples include but are not limited to,

1) Restless Isles where you kill members of another bugbear tribe because one bugbear told you to. You did no background check, etc. Just killed because you were told to.

2) The Church and The Cult. You killed followers of the Sovereign Host because the Silver Flame told you to. I truly question the 'Good' involved in the Silver Flame. Even the 'so-called' bosses in the game had names like Forgiving or Merciful.

3) You demand rewards for items. 'Good' adventurers (like Paladins) would naturally not demand for rewards for their good deeds. After all, they're Lawful Good are they not?

And there are lots of other quests and reasons why 'Evil' in quests exist.

And to the people talking about Angels and Demons, apparently I was a little mistaken. I retract the previous comment on it (but will leave it up so people won't get confused). I will say, however, that this is one of the reasons why 'Evil' is not implemented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_dragons#Controversy_and_notoriety

The quest "Dead Girl" in Delera's Graveyard, too.

Aesop
07-21-2010, 07:12 AM
Domains would be nice.

Even if they started out as only 1 or 2 per god(ess).


Sovereign Host would be the major difference

they actually have to add in all the subgods so that we'd have some variety and make them all useful in some ways so we have reasons to take one or the others.

Then add in the Dark 6 cause in Ebberon you can be good and worship and evil deity.

So having all the Elemental Domains (Earth Air Fire Water) the Alignment Domains (Good Evil Law Chaos) balance domains (Creation Destruction) life cycle (Healing Death) and all the rest

Strength War Trickery Luck Sun Darkness Madness Protection Glory

Have them operate similarly to Dragon Marks only as Granted Feats for Clerics


at level one you may have the Fire Domain chosen and you get 3 uses of Burning Hands and some other benefits

example


Least Fire Domain
3 uses of Bruning Hands
+10% Damage to Fire spells and Effects

Lesser Fire Domain
+1 Use of Burning Hands
2 Uses of Fireball
+5% Damage to Fire Spells and Effects
+5% Critical Chance to Fire Spells and Effects

Fire Domain
+1 Use of Burning Hands and Fireball
2 uses of Wall of Fire
+5% Damage to Fire Spells and Effects
+.5% Critical Damage to Fire Spells and Effects

Greater Fire Domain
+1 Use of Burning Hands, Fireball, and Wall of Fire
1 Use of Incendiary Cloud
+5% Damage to Fire Spells and Effects
+2.5% Critical Chance to Fire Spells and Effects
+.25% Critical Damage to Fire Spells and Effects


Superior Fire Domain
+1 Use of Burning Hands, Fireball, Wall of Fire, and Incendiary Cloud
1 Use of Fire Elemental Swarm (summon 3 Elder Fire Elementals)
+5% Damage to Fire Spells and Effects
+2.5% Critical Chance to Fire Spells and Effects
+.25% Critical Damage to Fire Spells and Effects



this way its adding power to Clerics without over writting some of there better benefits like normal spells. These don't Cost SP so they won't take away from a clerics healing and they still add utility and power to the cleric

Aesop

Visty
07-21-2010, 07:35 AM
this way its adding power to Clerics without over writting some of there better benefits like normal spells. These don't Cost SP so they won't take away from a clerics healing and they still add utility and power to the cleric

Aesop

they cost 5 feats though

they would have to give clerics bonus domain feat slots, otherwise most wont be taken

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 07:40 AM
+1 to Aesop for posting something that seems to work.

Yes, I agree that domains should be granted as bonus feats.

Sympl
07-21-2010, 07:52 AM
Alignment already plays no role in quests. As many will tell you, a lot of the quests are already evil-ish.

I too retract. It was hastily thrown together and I hardly have my wits about me tonight. Let me restate that for whatever reasons, I highly doubt an evil alignment will be forthcoming, and apparently the domain bit is a wee more complicated than I remembered (never played a P&P cleric....I was the Dwarven Figther or Paladin in the campaigns that I would have had the option) but I still think it's doable and would really flesh out the class. And Aesop's little demo there seems at first glance to be pretty tight. Make the feats automatic ones (as all Clerics should have a domain) and balance them not to be overpowering.

Aesop
07-21-2010, 08:38 AM
they cost 5 feats though

they would have to give clerics bonus domain feat slots, otherwise most wont be taken

Nope Granted Feats at levels 1 5 10 15 and 20


Aesop

edit damn not scrolling down...

Yes effectively you'd have Bonus Domain Feats... though really it would just be chosen at Level 1 Cleric and be granted as you increase in Cleric level

Visty
07-21-2010, 08:46 AM
Nope Granted Feats at levels 1 5 10 15 and 20


Aesop

edit damn not scrolling down...

Yes effectively you'd have Bonus Domain Feats... though really it would just be chosen at Level 1 Cleric and be granted as you increase in Cleric level

then it would be ok i guess :)

Aesop
07-21-2010, 08:59 AM
then it would be ok i guess :)

Well the other thing to consider in this case is that in PnP you get 2 domains and can chose the spells that you use in Domain Spots.

Perhaps you would be able to chose two domainsbut would have to chose which Domain Spells you would use..


Say for instance you had the Fire and Protection Domain

and you got ....


ya know what on second thought...


Say you have your two domains and instead of chosing when you rest or soemthing you have a certain number of uses of the individual tiers. Say you have Fire and Travel Domains and are a level 1 cleric

Instead of having to chose between the two tier one abilities during a rest you just have a pool of three uses to choose from,

So you could use 1 use of Expeditious Retreat and 2 uses of Burning Hands



Having 2 Domains however could mean that the power would need to be toned down a touch... though not necessarily

Aesop

Visty
07-21-2010, 09:03 AM
Well the other thing to consider in this case is that in PnP you get 2 domains and can chose the spells that you use in Domain Spots.

Perhaps you would be able to chose two domainsbut would have to chose which Domain Spells you would use..


Say for instance you had the Fire and Protection Domain

and you got ....


ya know what on second thought...


Say you have your two domains and instead of chosing when you rest or soemthing you have a certain number of uses of the individual tiers. Say you have Fire and Travel Domains and are a level 1 cleric

Instead of having to chose between the two tier one abilities during a rest you just have a pool of three uses to choose from,

So you could use 1 use of Expeditious Retreat and 2 uses of Burning Hands



Having 2 Domains however could mean that the power would need to be toned down a touch... though not necessarily

Aesop
or they make it like action boosts:
2 differant spellclickys with 1 charge each but they share the same pool, so you can only use 1 per rest

so, to stick to your example, a lvl1 cleric could cast either burning hands or exp retreat once per rest

Aesop
07-21-2010, 09:07 AM
or they make it like action boosts:
2 differant spellclickys with 1 charge each but they share the same pool, so you can only use 1 per rest

so, to stick to your example, a lvl1 cleric could cast either burning hands or exp retreat once per rest

yeah pretty much what I was thinking... similar to how Attack Boost and Power Surge are the same pool but different effects

Aesop

TekkenDevil
07-21-2010, 09:39 AM
NWN had this, too. And the first one in those series rocked.

honkuimushi
07-21-2010, 09:51 AM
1) Give us Evil as an alignment.
2) Neat and Clean is not needed in a deity.
3) Worry about lawsuits and parents saying 'This game is the personification of EVIL!!' later.
4) Instead of Deities, how about Domains?
5) The gods ARE appealing. It's just that Turbine might be afraid to bring Gods/Goddess' into the game. Note that in D&D Angels and Demons were changed to Tieflings and whatnot due to 'Some people' who complained.

What I was trying to say is that unlike some D&D settings, Eberron does not have 30 different dieties for every aspect of adventuring life. The most widespread faith is that of the Sovereign Host, which consists of 6 dieties, and worship of the pantheon is more common than that of individual dieties. The Dark 6 is the group of 6 dieties exiled from the Host. In the Dark 6, individual worship is more popular than that of the Pantheon as a whole.

The Silver Flame does not explicitly deny the existance of the Host and the 6, but consider the Silver Flame to be a higher truth. Then you have things like The Blood of Vol the Undying Court, the Spirits of the Past and the Lord of Blades which involve reverance of a non-divine beings.

Trying to come up with an idea that works for Balinor or Onatar is tough enough without coming up with something for the Silver Flame and Sovereing Host as a whole.

Evil alignments were not allowed on release because of concerns that it would encourage griefing. I don't think that the Devs have changed their minds on this, and I don't see that many gains from adding it.


I would love to see the addition of Domains, but I think you'll find that PnP Domains are significantly weaker than NWN domains. Look here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Adapting them to DDO will take some work.

I don't think that the Devs are reall afraid of including the Eberron religions. They are mentioned in several quests and there are paths and enhancements for several of the religions. I won't go into the name changes so much since you've retracted that, but I'd just like to point out that was a 2nd edition change. Good aligned outsiders were changed to Celestials in general and they were broken into races like Archons, Guardinals, Eladrin, etc. The evil aligned outsiders were collectively called fiends. Devils became Baatezu, Daemons became Yugoloths, Demons became Tanar'ri. Most of those changes were, for the most part, reverted for 3rd edition.

OmegaDestroyer
07-21-2010, 09:59 AM
I miss domains from NWN and IWD2. Sun and Healing made life easy.

AyumiAmakusa
07-21-2010, 10:05 AM
*Snip*

In response to your post, as always alignment will only affect RP-ers. A vast majority of players do not RP in any way so the effect of 'Evil' aligned characters will be minimal.

You mention that there were too many deities. What's wrong with releasing 2-3 deities first? We can always come up with the rest later. It's called being lazy on this part (or working on other stuff they deem important). Clerics = Heal is NOT good enough. Work on it. It's been HOW many years since this class came out and WHAT has been done on it so far? A mere PRE?

Yes, they are afraid of adding Evil/Religions because of the controversy and/or lawsuits that might ensue.