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Ravanys
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
There are more (and stronger) benefits to staying pure than there are to multiclassing, in my opinion. However, I too have been sorely tempted to multiclass, so I know why it is done. Sometimes you want to play one way, fight one way, but you want benefits that another class can add. For example, I am a barbarian, I deal significant damage (especially when raging), have decent saves (particularly against traps), and some damage reduction. That's in addition to AC from armor (always light). I also have increased movement speed.

I see no drawbacks to being a barbarian... except low spot, low search, and the inability to disable traps or open locked doors. But do I multiclass to gain those abilities? No. Why? Because I don't need to. It would be easier to, yes, but there are other ways to gain the same effect.

How can I circumvent the low spot and search? Well, when I was a wizard, I saw that there is a spell of Detect Secret Doors. If there's a spell, then there's a wand or a scroll. My understanding of scrolls is that, assuming your UMD is high enough, you can only use it once. My understanding of wands is that they have a specific number of uses, called charges, and some regen while others don't. I actually saw a wand of Detect Secret Doors... so if I really want a rogue's spot/search abilities, I can just redo that quest and nab it... and invest in some UMD next time I level.

How can I circumvent the inability to open locked doors? I assume there's a wand or scroll out there for the Knock spell, though I personally haven't seen one, and with a decent UMD I could use such an item. There are also Bells of Opening in the DDO store, each one comes with only a single use but a single bell only costs 67 TP. Which isn't bad at all. So to open locked doors, I don't need to multiclass either, I just need to find an item with Knock or buy a Bell.

How can I circumvent the inability to disable traps? Well, there is no easy answer to this, but personally I don't think trap disabling abilities by themselves justify the need to multiclass. If you really want the traps to be disabled, instead of relying on your ability to go around or get through them safely, then you can always add a rogue to your party. I wouldn't suggest multiclassing as a rogue to do this, but that is also an option.

Any spell that exists probably has a wand and a scroll that casts the spell. So instead of multiclassing into a spellcaster, spend points into UMD and keep your eyes open for the relevent items. For instance, wands of healing are especially useful.

Now, there are some class specific abilities that you won't be able to emulate without a level or two in that class, such as a bard's songs, a barbarian's rage, etc, but why would you want a barbarian's rage if you're a ranger (for example)?

If you are determined to multiclass, there are some things to be aware of. First of these are the stats. If you want to multiclass a barbarian, then you need to use another class that focuses on strength and constitution, such as a fighter. If you want to multiclass as a rogue, you can do so through the dexterity focus or the intelligence focus, such as a ranger, dexterity based fighter, or wizard. There are a lot more combinations that would work, but I won't go into detail on those at this time.

Before multiclassing, or even before creating a class for the first time, there is one bit of advice I always give. Do your own research into that class. When choosing a race, keep an eye on what benefits it gives you through enhancements, and what classes correspond to those benefits. Human seems to give average benefits, racial toughness and an enhancement bonus to any of the six stats. So human is the only race that is easily useable no matter what your class.

Some races work better with certain classes, but with enough experience you can make any combination work. You just have to do the research and be prepared for trial and error. That goes double for each additional class you multi into.

Club'in
07-09-2010, 05:29 PM
I don't have a barbarian, but you may be right about that. Stay true. But you should probably change the title of the thread, if you can. There are many excellent multi-class builds. And barbarian as your splash class (meaning one or two levels of barb) can give you multiple benefits. Your title should have been about multiclassing barbs, period.

Phidius
07-09-2010, 05:33 PM
1. Know what you're gaining
2. Know what you're giving up
3. Maximize #1, and minimize #2.

Zippo
07-09-2010, 05:44 PM
1. Know what you're gaining
2. Know what you're giving up
3. Maximize #1, and minimize #2.

This pretty much sums it up.


There are extremely viable ,and I would even venture along the thin overpowered line, multi-class builds out there. If you do as prescribed here you can without fear multi-class your toon and be an asset to the servers overall community.

k1ngp1n
07-09-2010, 05:56 PM
There are more (and stronger) benefits to staying pure than there are to multiclassing, in my opinion. However, I too have been sorely tempted to multiclass, so I know why it is done. Sometimes you want to play one way, fight one way, but you want benefits that another class can add. For example, I am a barbarian, I deal significant damage (especially when raging), have decent saves (particularly against traps), and some damage reduction. That's in addition to AC from armor (always light). I also have increased movement speed.

I see no drawbacks to being a barbarian... except low spot, low search, and the inability to disable traps or open locked doors.


What about the typical barbarian's complete lack of self-healing? Pots only go so far at cap...

But do I multiclass to gain those abilities? No. Why? Because I don't need to. It would be easier to, yes, but there are other ways to gain the same effect.

How can I circumvent the low spot and search? WHy would a barb care?Well, when I was a wizard, I saw that there is a spell of Detect Secret Doors. If there's a spell, then there's a wand or a scroll. My understanding of scrolls is that, assuming your UMD is high enough, you can only use it once. My understanding of wands is that they have a specific number of uses, called charges, and some regen while others don't Only eternal wands recharge, of which there are only a select few, and very limited in capability. I actually saw a wand of Detect Secret Doors... so if I really want a rogue's spot/search abilities, I can just redo that quest and nab it... and invest in some UMD next time I level. Barb rage interferes with UMD, making the skill almost useless. There are ways to make it work, but its not worth the character investment.

How can I circumvent the inability to open locked doors? Party with a rogue. I assume there's a wand or scroll out there for the Knock spell, Which doesn't have a DC high enough to hit most anything after a few levels. though I personally haven't seen one, and with a decent UMD I could use such an item. There are also Bells of Opening in the DDO store, each one comes with only a single use but a single bell only costs 67 TP. Which isn't bad at all. So to open locked doors, I don't need to multiclass either, I just need to find an item with Knock or buy a Bell.

How can I circumvent the inability to disable traps? Run around the trap? Most can be avoided. Otherwise, bring a trappy capable toon. Well, there is no easy answer to this, but personally I don't think trap disabling abilities by themselves justify the need to multiclass. If you really want the traps to be disabled, instead of relying on your ability to go around or get through them safely, then you can always add a rogue to your party. I wouldn't suggest multiclassing as a rogue to do this, but that is also an option.

Any spell that exists probably has a wand and a scroll that casts the spell. Only up to level 7 are widely available. So instead of multiclassing into a spellcaster, spend points into UMD and keep your eyes open for the relevent items. For instance, wands of healing are especially useful.

Now, there are some class specific abilities that you won't be able to emulate without a level or two in that class, such as a bard's songs, a barbarian's rage, etc, but why would you want a barbarian's rage if you're a ranger (for example)? There are other reasons to multiclass barb, for instance, than rage.

If you are determined to multiclass, there are some things to be aware of. First of these are the stats. If you want to multiclass a barbarian, then you need to use another class that focuses on strength and constitution, such as a fighter. If you want to multiclass as a rogue, you can do so through the dexterity focus or the intelligence focus Fail, such as a ranger, dexterity based fighter, or wizard. There are a lot more combinations that would work, but I won't go into detail on those at this time. Rogue levels are splashed for: trap capabilities, UMD, EVASION, EVASION again, and sneak attack DPS. Barb's taking rogue gain evasion, pallies gain evasion and UMD, etc.

Before multiclassing, or even before creating a class for the first time, there is one bit of advice I always give. Do your own research into that class. When choosing a race, keep an eye on what benefits it gives you through enhancements, and what classes correspond to those benefits. Human seems to give average benefits, racial toughness and an enhancement bonus to any two of the six stats. So human is the only race that is easily useable no matter what your class.

Some races work better with certain classes, but with enough experience you can make any combination work. You just have to do the research and be prepared for trial and error. That goes double for each additional class you multi into.

No offense, but I think a little more experience with the game is required before too much build advice can be offered. The concerns of Korthos, the harbor/market, and the houses, are far different from the concerns of the vale/amrath/raids/epic.

PopeJual
07-09-2010, 06:18 PM
How can I circumvent the low spot and search?

Barbarian have good find traps skill. Barbarian show you!


*stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *BOOM*

ME FOUND IT!

Quarterling
07-09-2010, 06:23 PM
I usually love to play with pure characters. Yes, I know the benefits of ranger/rogue/monk as well as many other great multi-class builds, but those simply aren't my cuppa tea.

The only multi-classed character is my thief-acrobat build with 17 rogue and 3 monk. However, with the release of theif-acrobat III coming out in the near future, I have to make the decision of whether or not to drop a level of monk to get tier III.

Removing the third level of monk is giving up quite a bit though, fists of light and all light finishers (walk of the sun and aligning the heavens being the favored). Like Phidius said, I'll need to try out Tier III first and see if it's worthy and capable of subbing in the level of monk.

ragwa1
07-09-2010, 06:36 PM
OP: Doesn't have a clue.

Zippo
07-09-2010, 06:38 PM
OP: Doesn't have a clue.

Well he isn't completely inaccurate, maybe misinformed of all possible scenarios, but not completely wrong. There are some builds that thrive on Capstone, most Barbarian builds being that, others do very well multi-classed.

ragwa1
07-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Well he isn't completely inaccurate, maybe misinformed of all possible scenarios, but not completely wrong. There are some builds that thrive on Capstone, most Barbarian builds being that, others do very well multi-classed.

Exactly.

*points to your sig bar*

Zippo
07-09-2010, 07:06 PM
Exactly.

*points to your sig bar*

Well I'm just saying we don't have to be too critical of him, he is new and all.

I'll cut him some slack for at least coming to the forums.

JDCrowell
07-09-2010, 07:09 PM
Barbarian have good find traps skill. Barbarian show you!


*stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *BOOM*

ME FOUND IT!

HAHA....love that. Which is why I put very little into my spot skill ;)

Ravanys
07-09-2010, 07:23 PM
Barbarian have good find traps skill. Barbarian show you!


*stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* *BOOM*

ME FOUND IT!

I love funny people, they make me laugh. ^^

To those saying I'm new, I sort of am. I've only been playing about a month, and the highest level I've ever reached so far is 6. (My barbarian is level 5 atm, my ranger level 6.) And yes, I do lack some game experience, which is why most of the information I used to make this post I gleaned from the wiki, compendium, and other player-made guides in this forum. The only personal experience I used is the existence of wands/scrolls, possibility of UMD, Bells of Opening, and Barbarian related comments. Which is why I always prefer the feedback.

Oh, and FYI, I'm not a 'he.' ^^

Consumer
07-09-2010, 07:38 PM
HAHA....love that. Which is why I put very little into my spot skill ;)

Spot is not for omgtrap moments, if you run a quest more than twice you should already know where the traps are, its much more useful to see mobs that are hiding from a distance.

PopeJual
07-09-2010, 08:20 PM
Well he isn't completely inaccurate, maybe misinformed of all possible scenarios, but not completely wrong. There are some builds that thrive on Capstone, most Barbarian builds being that, others do very well multi-classed.

I have to be honest, I don't see very much that's appealing in the Barbarian capstone.

The Paladin capstone is outstanding. Epic weapons that can bypass boss DR? YES PLEASE! The Fighter capstone is similarly appealing. 10% doublestrike? I'd buy that for a dollar. The Ranger capstone is an absolute beast for Rangers who like to pew pew pew.

The Wizard capstone is absolutely stunning. The only way that I'd even *consider* missing out on the Wizard capstone is if I could get Evasion and the ability to disable traps with higher DC than any Rogue that fight their way out of a wet paper bag and a generous helping of Hide and Move Silently and enough UMD to use a Race Restricted Heal Scroll of a differing alignment with no chance of failure. Oh, wait. :) I do love my Wizard 18/Rogue 2. If I TR him, though, I'll probably end up with either a Wizard 20 or a Sorcerer 20.

As for the Barbarians, I don't see the appeal. They used to get a 10% melee speed boost as part of their capstone, but that bug was taken away in Update 5. Those last two levels of Barbarian give +1 DR, +2 Strength all the time and +2 Str and Con while raging. That's an extra +2 to hit and an extra +2 to damage along with 20 extra HP while raging. I'm not impressed.

If you took two levels of Fighter, you'd get 2 feats and proficiency in heavy armor and tower shields. You probably don't care about the heavy armor and tower shield, but the two feats is something that a Barbarian could really use.

If you took two levels of Rogue, you'd get Evasion and a bucketload of skills. A Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge and even Trap Sense can make the Evasion pretty effective.

If you took two levels of Cleric, I'd probably laugh at you.


I can absolutely understand why someone would want to take their Barbarian all the way to level 20 as a pure class. I think that it's entirely reasonable to want to splash in a level or two of something else that can make your character more effective at doing what you want that character to do.


Edit: I should point out that I think that most multiclass builds are actually terrible. I've seen a lot of Bard 4/Clr 5/ Sorc 2 and similar nonsense. I'm just saying that I don't see a good reason to stay Barbarian all the way through to level 20 when you could make a good multiclass decision instead.

Nezichiend
07-09-2010, 08:32 PM
As for the Barbarians, I don't see the appeal. They used to get a 10% melee speed boost as part of their capstone, but that bug was taken away in Update 5. Those last two levels of Barbarian give +1 DR, +2 Strength all the time and +2 Str and Con while raging. That's an extra +2 to hit and an extra +2 to damage along with 20 extra HP while raging. I'm not impressed.

If you took two levels of Fighter, you'd get 2 feats and proficiency in heavy armor and tower shields. You probably don't care about the heavy armor and tower shield, but the two feats is something that a Barbarian could really use.

If you took two levels of Rogue, you'd get Evasion and a bucketload of skills. A Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge and even Trap Sense can make the Evasion pretty effective.


You sorta missed the mark on fighters and rogues here.... Haste boost. You can get 9 of them. (5base + 2enhancements +2amrarth necklace, while I use the shintao cord the +2 haste boosts is nice on a barb.) Also with fighter you get +1 str, so you only lose 3 str and 2 con. You make up the lost hp from the con because you could always pick up another toughness with your 2 extra feats. And probably, haste boost beats +1 to every swing.

For rogues you get SA damage and haste boost as well.

samthedagger
07-09-2010, 08:46 PM
There are more (and stronger) benefits to staying pure than there are to multiclassing, in my opinion. However, I too have been sorely tempted to multiclass, so I know why it is done. Sometimes you want to play one way, fight one way, but you want benefits that another class can add. For example, I am a barbarian, I deal significant damage (especially when raging), have decent saves (particularly against traps), and some damage reduction. That's in addition to AC from armor (always light). I also have increased movement speed.

I see no drawbacks to being a barbarian... except low spot, low search, and the inability to disable traps or open locked doors. But do I multiclass to gain those abilities? No. Why? Because I don't need to. It would be easier to, yes, but there are other ways to gain the same effect.

How can I circumvent the low spot and search? Well, when I was a wizard, I saw that there is a spell of Detect Secret Doors. If there's a spell, then there's a wand or a scroll. My understanding of scrolls is that, assuming your UMD is high enough, you can only use it once. My understanding of wands is that they have a specific number of uses, called charges, and some regen while others don't. I actually saw a wand of Detect Secret Doors... so if I really want a rogue's spot/search abilities, I can just redo that quest and nab it... and invest in some UMD next time I level.

How can I circumvent the inability to open locked doors? I assume there's a wand or scroll out there for the Knock spell, though I personally haven't seen one, and with a decent UMD I could use such an item. There are also Bells of Opening in the DDO store, each one comes with only a single use but a single bell only costs 67 TP. Which isn't bad at all. So to open locked doors, I don't need to multiclass either, I just need to find an item with Knock or buy a Bell.

How can I circumvent the inability to disable traps? Well, there is no easy answer to this, but personally I don't think trap disabling abilities by themselves justify the need to multiclass. If you really want the traps to be disabled, instead of relying on your ability to go around or get through them safely, then you can always add a rogue to your party. I wouldn't suggest multiclassing as a rogue to do this, but that is also an option.

Any spell that exists probably has a wand and a scroll that casts the spell. So instead of multiclassing into a spellcaster, spend points into UMD and keep your eyes open for the relevent items. For instance, wands of healing are especially useful.

Now, there are some class specific abilities that you won't be able to emulate without a level or two in that class, such as a bard's songs, a barbarian's rage, etc, but why would you want a barbarian's rage if you're a ranger (for example)?

If you are determined to multiclass, there are some things to be aware of. First of these are the stats. If you want to multiclass a barbarian, then you need to use another class that focuses on strength and constitution, such as a fighter. If you want to multiclass as a rogue, you can do so through the dexterity focus or the intelligence focus, such as a ranger, dexterity based fighter, or wizard. There are a lot more combinations that would work, but I won't go into detail on those at this time.

Before multiclassing, or even before creating a class for the first time, there is one bit of advice I always give. Do your own research into that class. When choosing a race, keep an eye on what benefits it gives you through enhancements, and what classes correspond to those benefits. Human seems to give average benefits, racial toughness and an enhancement bonus to any of the six stats. So human is the only race that is easily useable no matter what your class.

Some races work better with certain classes, but with enough experience you can make any combination work. You just have to do the research and be prepared for trial and error. That goes double for each additional class you multi into.

Hi, welcome.

Zippo
07-09-2010, 08:54 PM
Edit: I should point out that I think that most multiclass builds are actually terrible. I've seen a lot of Bard 4/Clr 5/ Sorc 2 and similar nonsense. I'm just saying that I don't see a good reason to stay Barbarian all the way through to level 20 when you could make a good multiclass decision instead.

Well I would say a multi-class like that is terrible, what I am referring to are the well thought out complimentary multi-class builds. There is a very big difference in the two and I believe you are mixing the two up quite possibly by running into the WRONG ones. Really it comes down to personal preference but the pure Barb has already been a proven build by many others, others who have been playing for more then a few years.

samthedagger
07-09-2010, 08:54 PM
HAHA....love that. Which is why I put very little into my spot skill ;)

You mean you put anything at all into your spot skill?

PopeJual
07-09-2010, 09:08 PM
Well I would say a multi-class like that is terrible, what I am referring to are the well thought out complimentary multi-class builds. There is a very big difference in the two and I believe you are mixing the two up quite possibly by running into the WRONG ones. Really it comes down to personal preference but the pure Barb has already been a proven build by many others, others who have been playing for more then a few years.

If you go back and read my post, I'm actually a big fan of good multiclass builds. I just wanted to put in a footnote to explain that I'm not a fan of multiclassing for its own sake, but rather a fan of multiclassing effectively.

Adarro
07-09-2010, 09:19 PM
1. Know what you're gaining
2. Know what you're giving up
3. Maximize #1, and minimize #2.

This

Adarro
07-09-2010, 09:27 PM
If you took two levels of Cleric, I'd probably laugh at you.

Does a 18/2 Barb/Cleric Scream at himself for heals?

Zippo
07-09-2010, 09:40 PM
If you go back and read my post, I'm actually a big fan of good multiclass builds. I just wanted to put in a footnote to explain that I'm not a fan of multiclassing for its own sake, but rather a fan of multiclassing effectively.

I apologize, I misunderstood then. I got the impression that you got caught running with some real funky multi-class builds and invariably had a bad experience with them and with that thought that all multi-classes were equally screwed.

Phidius
07-09-2010, 09:48 PM
I usually love to play with pure characters. Yes, I know the benefits of ranger/rogue/monk as well as many other great multi-class builds, but those simply aren't my cuppa tea.

The only multi-classed character is my thief-acrobat build with 17 rogue and 3 monk. However, with the release of theif-acrobat III coming out in the near future, I have to make the decision of whether or not to drop a level of monk to get tier III.

Removing the third level of monk is giving up quite a bit though, fists of light and all light finishers (walk of the sun and aligning the heavens being the favored). Like Phidius said, I'll need to try out Tier III first and see if it's worthy and capable of subbing in the level of monk.

Just hope nobody posts a thread that says "Increase Monk levels needed for Path of Harmonious Balance"... 'cause, you know, it's not fair that someone with 3 monk levels can be just as good as a pure monk :D

I'm only kidding... thinking that the only thing a monk is good for is Fists of Light would be rather shortsighted, don't you agree?

Narmolanya
07-09-2010, 09:53 PM
1. Know what you're gaining
2. Know what you're giving up
3. Maximize #1, and minimize #2.

I have to agree with Zippo, this sums it all up. Not going by this gudeline is why you see some awsome multiclass characters (sometime with classes that make no sense together) and some horrible ones. It's all about knowing these three things and a little planning ahead.