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Maxallu
07-07-2010, 10:44 AM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue would seem to make the class that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 10:57 AM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue makes the clas that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

Highest DPS in the game* - enough said.

I can't imagine what you must think of barbs if you deem fighters to be a liability.


*Well, arguably rogues have the highest, (they do the best against 0% and 50% fort)

Kasen_Darksword
07-07-2010, 11:03 AM
Well I see lots of gimped 18F 2M or 2R... I mean if your going to have only evasion and not improved evasion then you need to have a 30+ reflex skill. I see so many only have 12 to 15 reflex and they dont even understand that if you fail a save then you still take full damage.

Basicly telling or suggesting someone to take the rogue and monk levels for evasion is a bad idea. Its actually a better idea to tell them to beef up their reflex skills so they only take 1/2 damage on saves.

Also the people splashing dont think HP's are important as they think their evasion will keep them alive.

Gkar
07-07-2010, 11:06 AM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue makes the clas that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

Liability how? Compared to what?

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 11:12 AM
Well I see lots of gimped 18F 2M or 2R... I mean if your going to have only evasion and not improved evasion then you need to have a 30+ reflex skill. I see so many only have 12 to 15 reflex and they dont even understand that if you fail a save then you still take full damage.

Basicly telling or suggesting someone to take the rogue and monk levels for evasion is a bad idea. Its actually a better idea to tell them to beef up their reflex skills so they only take 1/2 damage on saves.

Also the people splashing dont think HP's are important as they think their evasion will keep them alive.

It is obvious you have no idea of what you're talking about. Reaching 30+ ref save is EASY on a 18/2, and if you think anyone is running around with 12 -15 ref save, you are horribly misstaken, hell 8 dex favored souls have higher than that.

18/2 is a very strong split, but if you aim for max dps, 20 fgt is the way to go.


Example of ref save breakdown on a 18/2-monk
6 fgt levels
3 mnk levels
7 dex (15+3tome+6item)
5 item
1 save ritual
2 lighting reflexes
-------
24
4 gh
1 haste
-------
29
2 recitation
-------
31
3 vs spells (kensai)
-------
34

And, if you're halfling you have FAR more, and you can probably fit luck of heroes on all 18 /2s, unless you're hafling and go for the healing marks.

KoboldKiller
07-07-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue makes the clas that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.


Are you serious with this?

KoboldKiller
07-07-2010, 11:19 AM
And for the record by your question I would assume you have never taken a pure fighter to cap so my suggestion is to take the class to cap before you throw "gimp" into your sentence.

It would have been simpler to just ask what the advantage is to staying pure to cap on a fighter vs. a splash.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 11:36 AM
I forgot that this is DDO and everyone is quick to be offended.

So instead of trying to convince me otherwise or change my mind, you just make assumptions and get all angry. You have failed in selling me on the pure fighter. And yes i was totally serious.

There is a reason that you don't see a whole lot of pure fighter builds.

Ok, maybe Gimp is a bit harsh because they certainly do what they are intended to do. But, they don't do enough.

Fighter Kensei III is availble at 18, and I would rather have evasion and much higher skills than 2 more levels of fighter. Why am i wrong?

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 11:38 AM
There is a reason that you don't see a whole lot of pure fighter builds.

Yep, and that's because people are incredibly ignorant when it comes to DPS, it's all barbarians, whilst in reality fighers have more dps, more utility, and doesn't take 2d3 / 4d3 vicious damage each swing.

Goldeneye
07-07-2010, 11:41 AM
20 Fighter = One of the highest DPS classes in the game, if not the highest. End-game, DPS is more important then anything else.

stainer
07-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Fighter Kensei III is availble at 18, and I would rather have evasion and much higher skills than 2 more levels of fighter. Why am i wrong?

You aren't wrong, but neither is anyone that would perfer to run a capped fighter. Thats the beauty of this game. This is a debate that has no winners.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Why am i wrong?

Because you're forgetting the +10% doublestrike capstone.

Goldeneye
07-07-2010, 12:01 PM
Because you're forgetting the +10% doublestrike capstone.

Benefits of 20 Fighter > 18 Fighter / 2 Rogue
+1 BAB Bonus
+10% Doublestrike
+1 Feat
+few more HP


Rogue adds UMD, Evasion, Sneak Attack damage (1d6+3), and Reflex Saves though.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 12:05 PM
It is obvious you have no idea of what you're talking about. Reaching 30+ ref save is EASY on a 18/2, and if you think anyone is running around with 12 -15 ref save, you are horribly misstaken, hell 8 dex favored souls have higher than that.

18/2 is a very strong split, but if you aim for max dps, 20 fgt is the way to go.


Example of ref save breakdown on a 18/2-monk
6 fgt levels
3 mnk levels
7 dex (15+3tome+6item)
5 item
1 save ritual
2 lighting reflexes :rolleyes:
-------
24
4 gh
1 haste
-------
29
2 recitation
-------
31
3 vs spells (kensai)
-------
34

And, if you're halfling you have FAR more, and you can probably fit luck of heroes on all 18 /2s, unless you're hafling and go for the healing marks.

All of your arguements are null and void because you apparently waste feats on lightning reflexes.

Anthios888
07-07-2010, 12:09 PM
I don't have a pure fighter (disclosure: I have played wf 18 ftr/2 rog stalwart, half 12 ftr/8 monk kensei, and half 14 fighter/2 rog pre mod 9).

I think the thing that makes a pure kensei stand out is the combination of fun melee things that make it fill the role really well.

Think of it like a barbarian that doesn't take vicious damage. It has the feats to achieve the great hit points and dps to be a good tank. Not being raged also makes it easier for them to take care of themselves with clickies and whatnot. Well-built fighters also have a nearly unbeatable stunning blow. I'm always thrilled to see a good pure fighter in any epic quest, even if I know they don't have evasion.

All of the bonuses from weapon specialization and kensei add onto your damage regardless of what kind of monster you're fighting (vs sneak attack damage or knight of the chalice). I think that is one of the other things that attracts people to the class.

Another element is that even a very offensively-oriented Kensei could choose their layout in such a way as to have an effective armor class (think 60s-70s) even without being a Stalwart Defender. This takes some feat and armor slot investments, but many folks like having a 2wf character with great dps and not having to sacrifice AC as much as a barbarian.

Pure fighters are pretty versatile for ideal weapons. Whether you're a khopesh head, a dwarven axer, or toting two handers, you're not stuck with a weapon decision already made for you (for example, many favored souls). Futhermore, every race on DDO can be a strong fighter from a DPS standpoint, whether you are a halfling with khopeshes, an elf with falchions or scimitars, a warforged or halfling with anything, or a dwarf with axes.

Being pure gives you full BAB and 10% doublestrike capstone. That extra damage and attack speed applies against every type of opponent, which adds to the melee versatility.

Finally, haste boosts are really fun to use imo. They seem temporary, but they come into play exactly when you need them. A fighter can often kill the things it needs to in the time the haste boost.

So, I think this is what makes a pure fighter build a joy to play to those who have them. I do crunch numbers enough to know that fighters are extremely competitive from a DPS standpoint, but I echo the OP's feeling that there's more to this. I think some of the other things (hit points, tactics, AC potential) are what contribute to a fighter being a great party member.

Paryan
07-07-2010, 12:11 PM
I forgot that this is DDO and everyone is quick to be offended.

So instead of trying to convince me otherwise or change my mind, you just make assumptions and get all angry. You have failed in selling me on the pure fighter. And yes i was totally serious.




While I cannot speak on the benefits/downsides of taking a fighter to cap vs splashing (as I have never taken a fighter to cap, with a splash or not....), as per your quote above you're arguing people make assumptions and get all angry...

Didn't you make the initial "assumption" that all lv 20 fighters are gimped and you judge them based purely on levels taken rather than player skill?

Any "ideal" level breakdown can still be a liability based on the person behind the keyboard....

Aerendil
07-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Because you're forgetting the +10% doublestrike capstone.

Yep. That +10% doublestrike definitely seems to be the critical factor here. But of course, that's a LONG time to wait for it.

And I guess it would depend on the OP's aim for a build. +10% to doublestrike certainly seems to inherently favour the really big hitters, such as THF builds / smiting Paladins / raged 2H Barbs / dark Monks with ToD, does it not?

So on a TWF build, for example, the dps loss from +10% doublestrike might not be as noticeable (although it *will* certainly be noticeable). But that's when you have to figure out whether or not it outweighs any benefits from, say, /2 monk (evasion, better AC and saves, etc.) or /2 Rogue (evasion, UMD, open locks, etc.).
Personal choice, really.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 12:30 PM
While I cannot speak on the benefits/downsides of taking a fighter to cap vs splashing (as I have never taken a fighter to cap, with a splash or not....), as per your quote above you're arguing people make assumptions and get all angry...

Didn't you make the initial "assumption" that all lv 20 fighters are gimped and you judge them based purely on levels taken rather than player skill?

Any "ideal" level breakdown can still be a liability based on the person behind the keyboard....

Actually that is not what I said. I said "before" player skill is accounted for.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Yep, and that's because people are incredibly ignorant when it comes to DPS, it's all barbarians, whilst in reality fighers have more dps, more utility, and doesn't take 2d3 / 4d3 vicious damage each swing.

Or.... people may be incredibly smart and recognize that evasion and full UMD may actually be more beneficial to a character than another 8% DPS on a character that already kills fast enough to be competitive at end-game.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 12:38 PM
I forgot that this is DDO and everyone is quick to be offended.

So instead of trying to convince me otherwise or change my mind, you just make assumptions and get all angry. You have failed in selling me on the pure fighter. And yes i was totally serious.

There is a reason that you don't see a whole lot of pure fighter builds.

Ok, maybe Gimp is a bit harsh because they certainly do what they are intended to do. But, they don't do enough.

Fighter Kensei III is availble at 18, and I would rather have evasion and much higher skills than 2 more levels of fighter. Why am i wrong?

I agree that 18/2 builds can be a viable choice for fighter builds... But you made a really stupid comment stating that a 20 fighter is a "gimped toon who is a liability"...

It's not that everyone is quick to be offended... You just sounded like a moron to start with.

Paryan
07-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Actually that is not what I said. I said "before" player skill is accounted for.

I will admit a mistake on my part there, but it raises another question....

If you view them as gimped, do you , or don't you then accept them into a group? In the OP you stated that you view a pure 20 ftr as a liability and gimped. This implies (although not specifically stated) that you either don't group with them or may not take a chance on accepting an unknown one into your group etc.

If that's the case, how do you judge their playstyle if you don't group with them?

If you do group with them (or they're in a group you're a part of) you may learn about their playstyle, give them credit (good or bad) for observed player skill etc, but that doesn't discount that you made an assumption about the player.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 12:41 PM
I don't have a pure fighter (disclosure: I have played wf 18 ftr/2 rog stalwart, half 12 ftr/8 monk kensei, and half 14 fighter/2 rog pre mod 9).

I think the thing that makes a pure kensei stand out is the combination of fun melee things that make it fill the role really well.

Think of it like a barbarian that doesn't take vicious damage. It has the feats to achieve the great hit points and dps to be a good tank. Not being raged also makes it easier for them to take care of themselves with clickies and whatnot. Well-built fighters also have a nearly unbeatable stunning blow. I'm always thrilled to see a good pure fighter in any epic quest, even if I know they don't have evasion.

All of the bonuses from weapon specialization and kensei add onto your damage regardless of what kind of monster you're fighting (vs sneak attack damage or knight of the chalice). I think that is one of the other things that attracts people to the class.

Another element is that even a very offensively-oriented Kensei could choose their layout in such a way as to have an effective armor class (think 60s-70s) even without being a Stalwart Defender. This takes some feat and armor slot investments, but many folks like having a 2wf character with great dps and not having to sacrifice AC as much as a barbarian.

Pure fighters are pretty versatile for ideal weapons. Whether you're a khopesh head, a dwarven axer, or toting two handers, you're not stuck with a weapon decision already made for you (for example, many favored souls). Futhermore, every race on DDO can be a strong fighter from a DPS standpoint, whether you are a halfling with khopeshes, an elf with falchions or scimitars, a warforged or halfling with anything, or a dwarf with axes.

Being pure gives you full BAB and 10% doublestrike capstone. That extra damage and attack speed applies against every type of opponent, which adds to the melee versatility.

Finally, haste boosts are really fun to use imo. They seem temporary, but they come into play exactly when you need them. A fighter can often kill the things it needs to in the time the haste boost.

So, I think this is what makes a pure fighter build a joy to play to those who have them. I do crunch numbers enough to know that fighters are extremely competitive from a DPS standpoint, but I echo the OP's feeling that there's more to this. I think some of the other things (hit points, tactics, AC potential) are what contribute to a fighter being a great party member.

Thank you for the well thought out and thorough post. The damage seems nice but, UMD and evasion seems too good to pass up. To me, ftr18/2 rog, with Kensai III, UMD, evasion is a more desirable party member. That toon can heal himself, survive traps, and do more than just swing a sword. Thats just me though. Perhaps that is my play style.

I have the same discriminating feelings towards Barbs. :)

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 12:44 PM
End-game, DPS is more important then anything else.

This requires some context.

If you could build a character that had evasion and full UMD skills, and it would take your DPS from the max possible 560 to 559 (I'm just making up numbers here), you'd be an idiot to not build that character.

So I think we can agree that some trade-offs are worthwhile...

The key is determining the scope of those trade-offs...

Even the uberest min/max powergamer would take a 0.18% hit to DPS for evasion and full UMD...

Now, would it be reasonable to take a 1% hit to DPS for those things?

2%?

7%?

15%?

If you can kill the biggest baddest raid boss in 45 seconds, is killing him in 46 seconds really that terrible?

grodon9999
07-07-2010, 12:46 PM
Or.... people may be incredibly smart and recognize that evasion and full UMD may actually be more beneficial to a character than another 8% DPS on a character that already kills fast enough to be competitive at end-game.

People TR for less than an 8% advantage. Think about that.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 12:47 PM
Ideal build depends on the way the character is played/used. I have 3 melee characters and 1 is a pure 20 fighter. The other 2 both have splashes of rogue and can UMD heal scrolls. All 3 can do good damge but the 20 fighter is the top DPS.
I play him when damage matters above all else. High end raids, epic content with healers, etc. The other 2 are nice for joining any group and have great surviveability.

20 fighters are not gimped, they are a specific tool for the job.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 12:48 PM
People TR for less than an 8% advantage. Think about that.

People TR to keep everything they already have PLUS an additional 1%-5% bonus...

Trade-offs require different thinking...

Jiipster
07-07-2010, 12:49 PM
All of your arguements are null and void because you apparently waste feats on lightning reflexes.

What else would you spend your feats on on a pure fighter?

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 12:54 PM
I will admit a mistake on my part there, but it raises another question....

If you view them as gimped, do you , or don't you then accept them into a group? In the OP you stated that you view a pure 20 ftr as a liability and gimped. This implies (although not specifically stated) that you either don't group with them or may not take a chance on accepting an unknown one into your group etc.

If that's the case, how do you judge their playstyle if you don't group with them?

If you do group with them (or they're in a group you're a part of) you may learn about their playstyle, give them credit (good or bad) for observed player skill etc, but that doesn't discount that you made an assumption about the player.

I try to pug as little as possible but it is a necessary part of the game. I accept anyone and everyone in my pugs essentially on a first come first serve basis. I don't wait for clerics or casters, i just take the whoever and roll out. with good players practically every quest is easy no matter what the group is made up with.

It is just my preference to have evasion fighters in the group. Traps, fire eles, enchanters etc, add UMD and I prefer to play next to that toon. Mid game, would you rather do kobold runs with pure fighters and barbs, or a couple monk/rogue splashes? Incredibly more survivable, but I will take anyone that wants to pug up.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 01:01 PM
What else would you spend your feats on on a pure fighter?

Non-human fighter gets 18 feats.

Toughness
Power Attack
Stunning Blow
TWF (x3) or THF (x3)
WF (x3)
WS (x2)
Improved Crit

Those 12 are pretty much required

Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
QuickDraw

Those 3 are pretty nice to have.

Khopesh
Skill Focus:Intimidate
Skill Focus: UMD
Bullheaded
Lightning Reflexes...

Ony 3 feats left, and 5 decent choices...

Hope you didn't TR and want to fit in a past-life feat too... :)

Vynnt
07-07-2010, 01:01 PM
IMO, the 6% dps increase is not worth having evasion. Consider the 'Great TWF DPS Nerf of U5' was only like -8% dps for most classes, and people went crazy. +6% dps over a few characters could mean the difference between a 1 round part 3 shroud and a 1.1 round, or one less breath from an epic dragon. Nothing crazy, but significant enough to be worth it.

Don't get me wrong, there are certain places where evasion is awesome, but meh. In general, with a 600-700 hp pure fighter, you are fine without it.

ps: I'm the opposite, I see weird multiclasses and think gimp. It's usually a little safer with pures =P

Anthios888
07-07-2010, 01:02 PM
I try to pug as little as possible but it is a necessary part of the game. I accept anyone and everyone in my pugs essentially on a first come first serve basis. I don't wait for clerics or casters, i just take the whoever and roll out. with good players practically every quest is easy no matter what the group is made up with.

/signed. I don't have issues PuGging but most things can be accomplished with whomever hits the LFM, especially if you have good leadership.



It is just my preference to have evasion fighters in the group. Traps, fire eles, enchanters etc, add UMD and I prefer to play next to that toon. Mid game, would you rather do kobold runs with pure fighters and barbs, or a couple monk/rogue splashes? Incredibly more survivable, but I will take anyone that wants to pug up.

Sounds like if you make a fighter, a UMD version is the right choice for you. My favorite fighter build right now is 12 fighter (Kensei II) / 7 rogue (Assassin) / 1 barb or monk, because it is good at all of the things you described, and still a great stunner. There's a certain DPS point where, if you're doing everything right, it's hard to weigh builds against each other except on a personal level.

As for those weighing down your groups, I'd just think of them as a barbarian with (hopefully) another niche like stunning or tanking as well. Bad players are bad players, but when I think of some of the fighters I have run with that are good, I wouldn't turn them down for any quest in DDO.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 01:02 PM
It is just my preference to have evasion fighters in the group. Traps, fire eles, enchanters etc, add UMD and I prefer to play next to that toon. Mid game, would you rather do kobold runs with pure fighters and barbs, or a couple monk/rogue splashes? Incredibly more survivable, but I will take anyone that wants to pug up.

Big difference between this and "gimped toons who are a liability to the group"

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 01:06 PM
All of your arguements are null and void because you apparently waste feats on lightning reflexes.


What else would you spend your feats on on a pure fighter?

If you have already taken all damage producing feats, your first toughness, stunning blow, Kensaii requirements, intim boosters (if you use it), etc. The default feet is toughness. And it can be taken multiple times for additional hit points each time.

You will probably say that with a good evasion save you don't need hit points, but that is wrong.

This is a snippet from a recent conversation in Epic DQ.

C: "Weak, you keep dying."

W: "Yeah, the blades are killing me."

C: "You need more hit points, what items are you wearing?"

W: "+6 con item, GFL, Minos, Toughness feat with enhancements, GH + 10 bonus, etc."

C: "What about your greensteel hp item, thats another 45 hp right there."

W: "But I used my greensteel to make a sp item and don't have a cleansing gem yet."

C: "But if your hit points are running out before your spell points, your not getting much use out of that item are you?"


So in conclusion, lightning reflexes is a bad feat because a sorc in eDQ did not have a greensteel hp item.



And Clam is a genius.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 01:06 PM
Big difference between this and "gimped toons who are a liability to the group"

I stand by everything that I wrote. Barring edits.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 01:20 PM
I stand by everything that I wrote. Barring edits.

Well, then you deserve all the flames for not being very knowledgable.

20 fighters are not gimps nor liabilities...

In some quests, they are better than 18/2 fighter/rogues.... In other quests, they are worse.

In no quest are they a liability.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 01:52 PM
All of your arguements are null and void because you apparently waste feats on lightning reflexes.

Haha, are you serious? Do you even know how many feats a 18/2-mnk gets? Please learn to build properly, and you'd do well to learn what builds I've made.
If you build for DPS, you have MORE than enough feats to fit both iron will, lighting reflexes AND luck of heroes. Without sacrificing anything except some more overkill HPs.

Example build - pure (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/6249027-post776.html)
A 2 mnk splash has even more feats, I might add.

Paryan
07-07-2010, 01:53 PM
I try to pug as little as possible but it is a necessary part of the game. I accept anyone and everyone in my pugs essentially on a first come first serve basis. I don't wait for clerics or casters, i just take the whoever and roll out. with good players practically every quest is easy no matter what the group is made up with.

It is just my preference to have evasion fighters in the group. Traps, fire eles, enchanters etc, add UMD and I prefer to play next to that toon. Mid game, would you rather do kobold runs with pure fighters and barbs, or a couple monk/rogue splashes? Incredibly more survivable, but I will take anyone that wants to pug up.

/Signed for the first part. Some of the most fun groups are the ones that are first 6 to fill etc...and I agree wholeheartedly that most quests can be done by any group makeup...

For the second part, this makes sense to me over the initial OP, without coming off sounding arrogant. Something along the lines of:

what you said above followed by: "now can anyone give me valid reasons why a pure 20 fighter might be better than the splashes I described etc...." would have come off sounding less insulting and, I feel, still get your point across.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 02:01 PM
Or.... people may be incredibly smart and recognize that evasion and full UMD may actually be more beneficial to a character than another 8% DPS on a character that already kills fast enough to be competitive at end-game.

Don't understand what that has got to do about pure fighters doing more dps than pure barbs.

18/2 is a REALLY strong split, no arguing there, and better is some situations. It's just that imo evasion has a small effect on the end game atm, so I wouldn't build for it.

And UMD is the definition of Overhype. Really, the only uses is for soloing and fast travels. Sure it's still good, but it's really overhyped, and really has no effect in an epic raid.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 02:02 PM
For the second part, this makes sense to me over the initial OP, without coming off sounding arrogant. Something along the lines of:

what you said above followed by: "now can anyone give me valid reasons why a pure 20 fighter might be better than the splashes I described etc...." would have come off sounding less insulting and, I feel, still get your point across.

Paryan,

just go ahead and click on my name, go through all of my posts and tell me what I should write. In fact, why don't you give me your email address so that I can send you my posts before i post them. That will give you an opportunity to clean them up, make sure nobody is offended etc.

Thanks,

PopeJual
07-07-2010, 02:07 PM
It is obvious you have no idea of what you're talking about. Reaching 30+ ref save is EASY on a 18/2, and if you think anyone is running around with 12 -15 ref save, you are horribly misstaken, hell 8 dex favored souls have higher than that.

I've seen Wizards with 56 HP at level 14 (4x14 = 56) and 0% fortification, so I'm pretty sure someone is running around with a 12-15 reflex save at level 20. :)

I count
+3 from Monk levels
+6 from Ftr levels
+4 from 18 Dex to get Greater Two Weapon Fighting on an even number
+0 because they don't know enough to get a resistance item, consider a feat, etc.

That's +13 before buffs that they won't cast on their own because they're a Fighter and they "don't need to worry about spells".

...I'm not at all saying that is how an Evasion Fighter should treat their reflex save. I'm just saying that someone who is told to take 2 levels of Monk or Rogue won't have a decent reflex save unless they're told that they need to spend some minimum amount of effort on that saving throw if they want Evasion to be worth a hill of beans.

I loved my Paladin 18/Rogue 2 and I think that Paladins give up even more than Fighters do when they pass on the capstone. I am glad that someone sat me down and explained the situations when Evasion is/isn't worthwhile on a character.

MrWizard
07-07-2010, 02:09 PM
I forgot that this is DDO and everyone is quick to be offended.

So instead of trying to convince me otherwise or change my mind, you just make assumptions and get all angry. You have failed in selling me on the pure fighter. And yes i was totally serious.

There is a reason that you don't see a whole lot of pure fighter builds.

Ok, maybe Gimp is a bit harsh because they certainly do what they are intended to do. But, they don't do enough.

Fighter Kensei III is availble at 18, and I would rather have evasion and much higher skills than 2 more levels of fighter. Why am i wrong?

many here get offended as they think your post is a personal insult or attack...just add those to the ignore list...for some reason they take it personal and never answer your question...just ignore, life is better.


it is understandable from a new persons view, that a fighter seems gimpy. No spells, no big saves on will or reflex, etc..etc.. but the huge amount of feats allows much.

taking 2 levels of pally or rogue is very beneficial, but not needed. Nor dos it gimp you to go either way.

Paryan
07-07-2010, 02:12 PM
Paryan,

just go ahead and click on my name, go through all of my posts and tell me what I should write. In fact, why don't you give me your email address so that I can send you my posts before i post them. That will give you an opportunity to clean them up, make sure nobody is offended etc.

Thanks,

You're free to write whatever you want, however you want. I offered my 2 cents about a way to phrase your point without inciting flames, take it or leave it...

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 02:19 PM
Haha, are you serious? Do you even know how many feats a 18/2-mnk gets? Please learn to build properly, and you'd do well to learn what builds I've made.
If you build for DPS, you have MORE than enough feats to fit both iron will, lighting reflexes AND luck of heroes. Without sacrificing anything except some more overkill HPs.

Example build - pure (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/6249027-post776.html)
A 2 mnk splash has even more feats, I might add.


Seems to me if you build for DPS you may want the extra hit points when you draw aggro.

Of course if your DPS build doesn't hit hard enough to draw aggro, I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Your build example has 591 hit points as a Warforge. Do you consider that high? When you add the temp from double madstone and a yugo pot it shows your really reaching.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 02:24 PM
Seems to me if you build for DPS you may want the extra hit points when you draw aggro.

Of course if your DPS build doesn't hit hard enough to draw aggro, I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Your build example has 591 hit points as a Warforge. Do you consider that high? When you add the temp from double madstone and a yugo pot it shows your really reaching.

My example build has 650 hp in 95% of the situations. And besides, 450 hp is MORE than enough for ANY content in the game, take it from someone who plays all the content regularly on all difficulties.

Anything above 500 hp is overkill, and just for show, hasn't really got any uses outside of that, unless the healers are really bad that is, and then I guess it helps to have more.

Fortunally, I don't really play with healers that bad, hell, I've never even seen a healer that bad. So meh.

Besides, that example build can drop, luck of heroes and iron will, for 2 more toughnesess and STILL fit a lighting reflexes.
Not to mention GTHF which is useless these days, oh and so is ITHF and THF, so if you really want to build for U5, you have 3 more feats right there.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 02:52 PM
My example build has 650 hp in 95% of the situations. And besides, 450 hp is MORE than enough for ANY content in the game, take it from someone who plays all the content regularly on all difficulties.

Anything above 500 hp is overkill, and just for show, hasn't really got any uses outside of that, unless the healers are really bad that is, and then I guess it helps to have more.

Fortunally, I don't really play with healers that bad, hell, I've never even seen a healer that bad. So meh.

Besides, that example build can drop, luck of heroes and iron will, for 2 more toughnesess and STILL fit a lighting reflexes.
Not to mention GTHF which is useless these days, oh and so is ITHF and THF, so if you really want to build for U5, you have 3 more feats right there.

We can't possibly agree because you are full of ****. 450 hp is not enough for end game content, regardless of your healers. Do you run epic? Do you raid?

If your idea of running all content is hound, shroud and VoD I can see why you think 450 is enough and anything over 500 is overkill. Let's talk when you venture into real end game content.

Capped fighters hit hard. They draw aggro. They get hit back for multiple hits of 200+. They should not need a designated healer assigned to them to live.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 02:54 PM
really has no effect in an epic raid.

See, this is the real issue...

We all aren't communicating very well.

We don't qualify our statements...

We get in big arguments about builds that could probably be avoided if we all added qualifiers...

I love UMD and evasion on a melee build because I play a lot more of the game than epic raids... I done a lot of TRing... I also solo, or shortman at times... Even with my capped characters, I still do the Vale quests for ingrediants, and the Reaver quests for runes, and the Amrath quests for belts/necklaces/large ingrediants.

In fact, I have only been in TWO epic quests... Doesn't interest me yet... I'm still working on other stuff...

So when I say I prefer a 18/2 build's survivability, I should point out that I'm talking as a person who solos and still does Enter the Kobold on occasion...

When you say the 20 fighter does the best DPS in the game, you should point out that you're talking about raids where there are 12 characters, and dedicated healers, and big boss monsters that everyone groups around for easy mass-healing.

Because best DPS is the optimal choice in that situation.... Slightly less than best DPS but with self-use heal scrolls and evasion when 2-manning Rainbow is better in THAT situation.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:01 PM
We can't possibly agree because you are full of ****. 450 hp is not enough for end game content, regardless of your healers. Do you run epic? Do you raid?

If your idea of running all content is hound, shroud and VoD I can see why you think 450 is enough and anything over 500 is overkill. Let's talk when you venture into real end game content.

Capped fighters hit hard. They draw aggro. They get hit back for multiple hits of 200+. They should not need a designated healer assigned to them to live.

I play Evons with a healer and with a pure fighter (example build) every 3'rd day, and a equeen as well. I play 10+ equests a week, solo farm Eadq part 1, etc. Trust me I know what I'm talking about; you don't; obviously.

And either way the example build has 650+ hp and can drop 5 feats for 5 toughnesses and STILL have lighting reflexes.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:03 PM
See, this is the real issue...

We all aren't communicating very well.

We don't qualify our statements...

We get in big arguments about builds that could probably be avoided if we all added qualifiers...

I love UMD and evasion on a melee build because I play a lot more of the game than epic raids... I done a lot of TRing... I also solo, or shortman at times... Even with my capped characters, I still do the Vale quests for ingrediants, and the Reaver quests for runes, and the Amrath quests for belts/necklaces/large ingrediants.

In fact, I have only been in TWO epic quests... Doesn't interest me yet... I'm still working on other stuff...

So when I say I prefer a 18/2 build's survivability, I should point out that I'm talking as a person who solos and still does Enter the Kobold on occasion...

When you say the 20 fighter does the best DPS in the game, you should point out that you're talking about raids where there are 12 characters, and dedicated healers, and big boss monsters that everyone groups around for easy mass-healing.

Because best DPS is the optimal choice in that situation.... Slightly less than best DPS but with self-use heal scrolls and evasion when 2-manning Rainbow is better in THAT situation.

Yea, I guess we are talking about different things. Either way, we both agreed that 18/2 AND pure 20 are both very solid builds.

PS; I never talk about trash quests and melees, cause why would you ever bring anything except a 20 FS for such a quest? Why slow it down with melees. :D
Solo / duo with FS all the way in those quests.

Aaxeyu
07-07-2010, 03:05 PM
All of your arguements are null and void because you apparently waste feats on lightning reflexes.

Yea, because 720 hp is SO much better than 700, oh wait...

BTW, lightning reflexes is just one feat.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 03:19 PM
Yea, I guess we are talking about different things. Either way, we both agreed that 18/2 AND pure 20 are both very solid builds.

PS; I never talk about trash quests and melees, cause why would you ever bring anything except a 20 FS for such a quest? Why slow it down with melees. :D
Solo / duo with FS all the way in those quests.

This we agree on.


Yea, because 720 hp is SO much better than 700, oh wait...

BTW, lightning reflexes is just one feat.

BTW, I don't really care. The whole point was that it was being used to justify the fact that a good reflex save can be achieved for evasion.

The point was that most people will not plan a build with dedicated feats to raise the reflex save.


But as you can see this is from the same person that creates stars alligning numbers and uses them as real hit points. I am more of what is it walking around town type of player.

Nezichiend
07-07-2010, 03:21 PM
+10% doublestrike.
Also is good for stunning since 10% of the time you can get more than 1 stun attempt on a THF, on a TWF you get an 8% chance of getting 3 checks. And the chance that you only get 1 attempt is lowered by 2% to 18%.
'Nuff said.

Versus:
UMD
good for solo'ing and lvling.... but in raids and epics, it really doesn't do much, and plus why would you solo on a FIGHTER (Mr. Wizard please do not quote me on that!!!)

Evasion
With over 600hp you are gonna be more survivable anyways, as a healer, I always heal for the least survivable person, if it is a 400hp pally, there ya go. Having around 700hp (with madstone) and evasion is too overkill.

1d6+3 SA dmg (I think)
Best thing about going 18/2rogue. Doesn't even touch having +10% doublestrike though.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:24 PM
BTW, I don't really care. The whole point was that it was being used to justify the fact that a good reflex save can be achieved for evasion.

The point was that most people will not plan a build with dedicated feats to raise the reflex save.

No, you said all my arguments were null and void because I count with lighting reflexes on fighter builds, in other words you said I suck at building builds. While it has been "proven" that infact you had / have no idea what you're talking about.

If people don't plan for reflex save on an evasion split, they aren't planning in the first place.


PS: Way to neglect my previous post.

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 03:25 PM
and plus why would you solo on a FIGHTER (Mr. Wizard please do not quote me on that!!!)


So, fighters are extremely limited and have to have their hands held, so that they can do the same DPS as other DPS builds? That is what i get out of this. I'll take UMD and evasion thank you.


But I can hit stuff really hard! That's what I'm going to hear. How are you going to heal yourself with all of those hit points? Yeah, I think I was right the first time.

Aaxeyu
07-07-2010, 03:26 PM
BTW, I don't really care. The whole point was that it was being used to justify the fact that a good reflex save can be achieved for evasion.

The point was that most people will not plan a build with dedicated feats to raise the reflex save.

Just because most people fails and skips lightning reflexes doesn't make it a wasted feat.
A-O showed that there is no reason NOT to take it.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:27 PM
So, fighters are extremely limited and have to have their hands held, so that they can do the same DPS as other DPS builds? That is what i get out of this. I'll take UMD and evasion thank you.

Wrong. Fighters are less limited than barbs, and deal more damage.

When you get to a player skill level, and a guild skill level, where you NEVER fail, it's all about speed, and more dps = more speed.

One day you might understand the importance of max dps, but not until you come to a state where you never* fail.

*Fail less than 1% of the time in hard quests

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Double post

Nezichiend
07-07-2010, 03:34 PM
So, fighters are extremely limited and have to have their hands held, so that they can do the same DPS as other DPS builds? That is what i get out of this. I'll take UMD and evasion thank you.


But I can hit stuff really hard! That's what I'm going to hear. How are you going to heal yourself with all of those hit points? Yeah, I think I was right the first time.

Explain to me what the word same means, I think you misunderstand. There is a HUGE noticeable difference between the dps of characters built for it, and characters who are not.

There are trade-offs for whatever you do in DDO, if it is gain DPS, you will lose something else. If you want evasion, you will lose something, if you want UMD you will lose something. That something is USUALLY dps.

In raids, I don't think the rogues and and everyone with UMD is gonna stop hitting, back out, and heal themselves with 4 heal scrolls which would take around 30 seconds whenever they get low. Running raids without a dedicated healer is rare and is (usually) sub-optimal. NOTE: when I say dedicated healer I don't mean FvS or clr, it could be anyone, but that is their job. Mostly they are FvS or clrs though ;)

And yes, they must have their hands held but in raids usually the healers are throwing mass heals so its more like they are just doing their thing and not worrying extra about you because you have a lot of hp. They are worrying about the rogue with 300hp.

You aren't going to heal yourself. In raids and epics you usually are not meant to. That is my point.

Nezichiend
07-07-2010, 03:40 PM
Wrong. Fighters are less limited than barbs, and deal more damage.

When you get to a player skill level, and a guild skill level, where you NEVER fail, it's all about speed, and more dps = more speed.

One day you might understand the importance of max dps, but not until you come to a state where you never* fail.

*Fail less than 1% of the time in hard quests

I would argue on the less limited part there... Fighters are definitely more limited than barbs. Kensei does more damage with his signature weapon, meaning if he is fighting skeletons, he does not get the extra damage from his signature weapon. (Note: I hope to god your signature weapon is not a bludgeoning weapon.) That is a significant hit to his DPS.

Also, power surge has a less duration than rage. Barbs are raged for much longer than fighters are powersurged. In longer epics (raids it wouldn't really make a difference since fighters can get around 11 minutes of powersurge and in raids it usually doesn't take much longer in between shrines than 11 minutes), they might run out of powersurges for some fights. Meaning that they have their max dps for a more limited time.

As well, haste boosts will run out in longer quests, and that is a huge chunk of fighter's DPS.

So my point is: With a similarly equiped fighter and barb, the fighter will out DPS the barb, but in longer quests the barb will out-dps the fighter. With better groups there is less time in between shrines meaning that the fighter becomes better and better in better groups.


P.S. Now I will have AO and shade after me....

yuerong89
07-07-2010, 03:46 PM
I forgot that this is DDO and everyone is quick to be offended.
1)There is a reason that you don't see a whole lot of pure fighter builds.

Ok, maybe Gimp is a bit harsh because they certainly do what they are intended to do. But, they don't do enough.

2)Fighter Kensei III is availble at 18, and I would rather have evasion and much higher skills than 2 more levels of fighter. Why am i wrong?

1)In response to why u dont see a lot of pure fighter builds, its simple coz u dont actually need a planne side by side when you're lvling up and more than enough feats to take in what matters. So u cant really go wrong on pure fighter, unless u're new to ddo.

2)Fighter 18 and 2 more lvs u get much higher skills?, fighter base skill is 2 per lv normally fighter starts out 8 int so 1 skill per lv. unless you're going for CE which then nets u more skills due to higher int, 3/4 skills per lv. which u can put into jump balance umd intimdate.

Jump solved by buff.
balance is good to have(X-class skill)
umd is good to have (X-class skill)
intimidate should be the most valuable here so fighter w/8int fits in well. u dont really need more skills.
and by splashing u lose capstone so you lose 10% x2strike on mainhand

Assuming u're TWF 80% proc on offhand.
in 10 round you hit 11 mainhand and 8 off hand with capstone->19
compared to a fighter w/o capstone ->18
there u got a upperhand for about 5% dps (assuming offhand has same dmg as mainhand, taking note of the offhand and mainhand atk difference will net u slightly more than 5% dps.)

If you splash is rog then u gota do some calculation on 0%/50% fort mob
but if 100% fort then pure ftr is most likely to be the top chain.

and lets not forget if u splash rog/mnk for evasion(which feat i think is overated) u only get 19 bab base
and 20 bab nets u additional atk spd bonus, which is about 2.5% increment of atk spd.
so a pure fighter will outdps a unpure one by roughly 7.5% assuming 100% fort.

7.5% is what i sell to you.


hope we have good discussion!
cheers!

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 03:52 PM
No, you said all my arguments were null and void because I count with lighting reflexes on fighter builds, in other words you said I suck at building builds. While it has been "proven" that infact you had / have no idea what you're talking about.

If people don't plan for reflex save on an evasion split, they aren't planning in the first place.


PS: Way to neglect my previous post.

Not sure what I neglected.

But on second thought I would like to address the lightning reflexes issue. Let's agree that in some cases lightning reflexes could be selected, and you really do suck at builds.

And trying to critize my building prowess won't work because if you took the time to look up my characters you would see they clearly are sub-par.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:52 PM
I would argue on the less limited part there... Fighters are definitely more limited than barbs. Kensei does more damage with his signature weapon, meaning if he is fighting skeletons, he does not get the extra damage from his signature weapon. (Note: I hope to god your signature weapon is not a bludgeoning weapon.) That is a significant hit to his DPS.

Also, power surge has a less duration than rage. Barbs are raged for much longer than fighters are powersurged. In longer epics (raids it wouldn't really make a difference since fighters can get around 11 minutes of powersurge and in raids it usually doesn't take much longer in between shrines than 11 minutes), they might run out of powersurges for some fights. Meaning that they have their max dps for a more limited time.

As well, haste boosts will run out in longer quests, and that is a huge chunk of fighter's DPS.

So my point is: With a similarly equiped fighter and barb, the fighter will out DPS the barb, but in longer quests the barb will out-dps the fighter. With better groups there is less time in between shrines meaning that the fighter becomes better and better in better groups.


P.S. Now I will have AO and shade after me....

Aye, you are correct. I meant only in a clicky /utlity way when I said less limited. DPS wise they are more limited, and they do do less dmg is some senarios, just like fighters do WAY more in a LOT of senarios (fights that are ~20 sec long).

The only quest where I run out of haste boost / PSes is really Eadq1 and chains of flame, neither of which you play that often, cause it just aint worth it, but there are occasions. In wk the barb is a head as well, but not as much as you'd think, as they lose more to 100% for than fighters (+3 crit multiplier vs +1 crit range, 4(8)seeker).

And if you want to play a lot of udnead quests end game as a fighter, you can afford the WS blunt feats as well, and then you only really lose 2(4)dmg when swapping weapon (+1 crit range as well ofcourse, but as it's undead...)

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 03:57 PM
I never mentioned Barbs.

There is no quest in this game that is solely dependent on a max DPS toon who has his own dedicated healer. Read what i wrote again. I wrote the same DPS as other DPS builds. You guys get offended because of your lack of reading comprehension.

If I understand you correctly, this high DPS fighter toon is better suited in one situation (boss bashin) than a non pure fighter. (Also understand that there will be several other toons bashing on the boss as well, but your 2% DPS is what puts you guys over the top? Come on) But, throughout the remaining 95% of the game the fighter has to have his hand held and directly supported by other more useful, more diverse characters.


If everyone is a huddled up on the boss and everyone is getting spammed mass heals, I don't understand why you deny yourself the UMD and evasion.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 03:57 PM
Not sure what I neglected.

But on second thought I would like to address the lightning reflexes issue. Let's agree that in some cases lightning reflexes could be selected, and you really do suck at builds.

And trying to critize my building prowess won't work because if you took the time to look up my characters you would see they clearly are sub-par.

You completely neglected this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3102363&postcount=47) post.

So you apperantly have sub-par builds, why are you bothering to discuss about optimal building with me? I clearly have a lot more experience in this matter than you, and number wise +2 ref save > +22 hp, when you have 700+ hp and only ~25-35 ref save.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:01 PM
I never mentioned Barbs.

There is no quest in this game that is solely dependent on a max DPS toon who has his own dedicated healer. Read what i wrote again. I wrote the same DPS as other DPS builds. You guys get offended because of your lack of reading comprehension.

If I understand you correctly, this high DPS fighter toon is better suited in one situation (boss bashin) than a non pure fighter. (Also understand that there will be several other toons bashing on the boss as well, but your 2% DPS is what puts you guys over the top? Come on) But, throughout the remaining 95% of the game the fighter has to have his hand held and directly supported by other more useful, more diversified characters.


If everyone is a huddled up on the boss and everyone is getting spammed mass heals, I don't understand why you deny yourself the UMD and evasion.

Yes, you wrote "the same dps as other dps builds", but they don't have that. You rant on without even reading. They have more dps than every other dps class, except rogues, and in some situations the even less diverse class - barbarians.

It's ~8% dps, not 2% dps, and it's better in all the content in the game, if you never fail at anything, and that's because speed is the only thing that matters, when everything is no-fail anyways . Well that's what I and most other powergamer-rushers think.

It might not has as much utlity as a lot of other chars, but that doesn't mean it can't solo sins elite, or solo Sos, or anything basically. All you need is player skill, resources and gear.

You deny yourself umd and evasion because the imapact it has got in the current epic endgame isn't good enough to justify the loss of 8% dps.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 04:12 PM
You completely neglected this (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3102363&postcount=47) post.

So you apperantly have sub-par builds, why are you bothering to discuss about optimal building with me? I clearly have a lot more experience in this matter than you, and number wise +2 ref save > +22 hp, when you have 700+ hp and only ~25-35 ref save.

Was the point of the post reference that you run epic quests?

If so, I suppose it is possible to complete the raid if someone gimped there build with lightning reflexes. Of course when they die at -18 hit points and have to be rezzed and rebuffed, wouldn't it have been nice if they had the extra hit points?

We are not discussing optimal builds. We are discussing the fact that you think you are a good builder and try to justify wasting feats on lightning reflexes.

Kasen_Darksword
07-07-2010, 04:15 PM
It is obvious you have no idea of what you're talking about. Reaching 30+ ref save is EASY on a 18/2, and if you think anyone is running around with 12 -15 ref save, you are horribly misstaken, hell 8 dex favored souls have higher than that.

18/2 is a very strong split, but if you aim for max dps, 20 fgt is the way to go.


Example of ref save breakdown on a 18/2-monk
6 fgt levels
3 mnk levels
7 dex (15+3tome+6item)
5 item
1 save ritual
2 lighting reflexes
-------
24
4 gh
1 haste
-------
29
2 recitation
-------
31
3 vs spells (kensai)
-------
34

And, if you're halfling you have FAR more, and you can probably fit luck of heroes on all 18 /2s, unless you're hafling and go for the healing marks.


First of all your taking player skill into consideration here. Yes, your reflex will be good if your good at building characters. But if your telling a new player to take evasion from either splashing rogue or monk then not so much. I have looked up many characters that had the splash of those classes to find out they screwed their reflex saves. Heck even saw two of them wearing full plate sos armor so they gimped their evasion all together.

If were talking about a good player or someone who has time to invest in equipment then either one works. My pure fighter has +45 Fire and Electric resist GS items on and over 700hp. So I stop a large amount of elemental damage as is and im max dps.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:17 PM
Was the point of the post reference that you run epic quests?

If so, I suppose it is possible to complete the raid if someone gimped there build with lightning reflexes. Of course when they die at -18 hit points and have to be rezzed and rebuffed, wouldn't it have been nice if they had the extra hit points?

We are not discussing optimal builds. We are discussing the fact that you think you are a good builder and try to justify wasting feats on lightning reflexes.

I don't need to be a psychologist to know there is something mentally wrong with the guy trying to hurl himself off a bridge. And I don't need to be a good character builder to recognize the garbage your trying to pass off as good advice.

I wouldn't know, I never die at -18. Though, wouldn't be a suprise if a non-LR build dies at -100 due to a failed save. That's a LOT more likely than a 650+ hp char dies due to 1 toughness.

Whatever you say, according to a lot of people I am one of, if not the best builder out there. And I was running a very successful request a build thread over at EU.

Well whatever, you can have whatever opinions you wish, just go ahead and live in ignorance and inferiorness.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 04:24 PM
You deny yourself umd and evasion because the imapact it has got in the current epic endgame isn't good enough to justify the loss of 8% dps.

Again, I say this whole argument comes down to epic endgame players vs the entire rest of the game....

You're both right...

It is correct that UMD and evasion isn't worth much in a full group of awesome power-gamers running nothing but epic quests and elite raids...

It is also correct that in the rest of the game and in PUGs, a fighter/rogue with evasion and UMD will likely be a better build...

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:32 PM
First of all your taking player skill into consideration here. Yes, your reflex will be good if your good at building characters. But if your telling a new player to take evasion from either splashing rogue or monk then not so much. I have looked up many characters that had the splash of those classes to find out they screwed their reflex saves. Heck even saw two of them wearing full plate sos armor so they gimped their evasion all together.

If were talking about a good player or someone who has time to invest in equipment then either one works. My pure fighter has +45 Fire and Electric resist GS items on and over 700hp. So I stop a large amount of elemental damage as is and im max dps.

Well, I've yet to encounter someone that gimped, though I do tent to spot a bad player before I even invite em to the group. Not that I PUG often since scaling.

My point is, it's hard to have less than 25 ref save.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:33 PM
It is also correct that in the rest of the game and in PUGs, a fighter/rogue with evasion and UMD will likely be a better build...

Yep, FAR better build. Especially a fgt / mnk with 55+ unbuffed ac. Now that's a BEAST in normal pug content.

Quikster
07-07-2010, 04:36 PM
Its pretty simple really. You build the one you like. Neither are gimped strictly because of the factor you mention (2 lvl splash or pure).

Both can run elite/epic content fine, both can reach umd capable of no failing a heal scroll, both can survive dungeons with elite traps or elite spells with or without a healer.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:37 PM
Its pretty simple really. You build the one you like. Neither are gimped strictly because of the factor you mention (2 lvl splash or pure).

Both can run elite/epic content fine, both can reach umd capable of no failing a heal scroll, both can survive dungeons with elite traps or elite spells with or without a healer.

Yep, the truth has been spoken.

splashed is better for normal content
pure is better for epic content

Pick the one you play the most / aim for
Hell, pick either and you'll do very well in all the content, as both are really powerful splits.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 04:52 PM
It is obvious you have no idea of what you're talking about. Reaching 30+ ref save is EASY on a 18/2, and if you think anyone is running around with 12 -15 ref save, you are horribly misstaken, hell 8 dex favored souls have higher than that.

18/2 is a very strong split, but if you aim for max dps, 20 fgt is the way to go.


Example of ref save breakdown on a 18/2-monk
6 fgt levels
3 mnk levels
7 dex (15+3tome+6item)
5 item
1 save ritual
2 lighting reflexes
-------
24
4 gh
1 haste
-------
29
2 recitation
-------
31
3 vs spells (kensai)
-------
34

And, if you're halfling you have FAR more, and you can probably fit luck of heroes on all 18 /2s, unless you're hafling and go for the healing marks.


How about you troll less? Take it to freakin PM if you're so obessed, I've got a LOT of people to speak up for me, hell anyone that knows anything about the endgame and isn't biased would.

Way to stray of the OP over some delusional idea that taking lighting reflexes, on a fighter with evasion splash is gimped.

You stated reaching a 30+ reflex save is EASY. Then you present a calculation that uses a feat, assumes a +3 dex tome, includes a ritual, and includes recitation, just to get over 30.

I consider that far from easy to get over 30. I just pointed out one area of your equation that over-assumed because I think assuming a little used feat to prove a point is rediculous.

PopeJual
07-07-2010, 04:56 PM
Don't back pedal on me now Superman. You stated reaching a 30+ reflex save is EASY. Then you present a calculation that uses a feat, assumes a +3 dex tome, includes a ritual, and includes recitation, just to get over 30.

I consider that far from easy to get over 30. I just pointed out one area of your equation that over-assumed because I think assuming a little used feat to prove a point is rediculous.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I should point out that if you turn the +3 dex tome into a +2 dex tome and take away the recitation, you still have 31. That's over 30 with just things that are entirely reasonable in my opinion. If you can't gather up the Lightning Split Soarwood, then throw a Human stat point bonus at your Dex and you still have 31.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 04:58 PM
Nice! Guess I hit a nerve.

Don't back pedal on me now Superman. You stated reaching a 30+ reflex save is EASY. Then you present a calculation that uses a feat, assumes a +3 dex tome, includes a ritual, and includes recitation, just to get over 30.

I consider that far from easy to get over 30. I just pointed out one area of your equation that over-assumed because I think assuming a little used feat to prove a point is rediculous.

No, you didn't hit a nerve, but you do troll harder than Shade, and that's saying a lot.

It is easy, and no, you don't need recitation, look at the kensai boost, +3 vs saves, that's all the ref saves there are, except traps - woop!

Imagine that split on a halfing? that's +1 to all saves, +2-3 from enhancements, +1 from dex, +1 from enhancmenets(if you want it) = 3-5 more ref save.

It is EASY for anyone that knows how to build.

You do take something incredibly off topic though, and to call lighting reflexes a gimped feat is like calling a favored soul a poor healer. As in, it's not true no matter how you twist it.

In the real world you don't need 1500+ hp to survive in shroud, you're fine with 350, even more so with 650.

Requring a feat to reach 30+ (not that it does) doesn't make it less easy, it's still an obvious way to do it, and if you fail to realize that, then I can't help you.

Bracosius
07-07-2010, 05:10 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I should point out that if you turn the +3 dex tome into a +2 dex tome and take away the recitation, you still have 31. That's over 30 with just things that are entirely reasonable in my opinion. If you can't gather up the Lightning Split Soarwood, then throw a Human stat point bonus at your Dex and you still have 31.



It is easy, and no, you don't need recitation, look at the kensai boost, +3 vs saves, that's all the ref saves there are, except traps - woop!


Yeah, who cares about traps. I never see people with evasion run through them because...um, they have evasion.

I assumed you realized I didn't count the Kensai bonus because I feel saving from traps is useful.



But then again, I am not the expert.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-07-2010, 05:29 PM
Yeah, who cares about traps. I never see people with evasion run through them because...um, they have evasion.

I assumed you realized I didn't count the Kensai bonus because I feel saving from traps is useful.
You mean those traps anyone can navigate around? Or do you mean those traps that doesn't really do any damage anyways? Well, except those epic traps, which you don't save anyways.




But then again, I am not the expert.
Clearly.

Thorzian
07-07-2010, 05:38 PM
ahh, the umd argument.... again. how many of you actually expect the fighter in your group to heal other party members? to raise dead? (which is soooo easy to do without umd) look, bob's gonna kill that monster with umd :D

fighters.... fight. thats what they do. 600-750+hp makes the evasion argument kind of useless. take the damage, take a heal, get on with your life without wasting stat points in charisma or your 1 skill point per level (unless you also wasted stat points in int as well) all the healers i know would rather see the boss dead faster then snivel about having to heal a fighter after a trap.

Thrudh
07-07-2010, 05:48 PM
ahh, the umd argument.... again. how many of you actually expect the fighter in your group to heal other party members? to raise dead? (which is soooo easy to do without umd) look, bob's gonna kill that monster with umd :D

fighters.... fight. thats what they do. 600-750+hp makes the evasion argument kind of useless. take the damage, take a heal, get on with your life without wasting stat points in charisma or your 1 skill point per level (unless you also wasted stat points in int as well) all the healers i know would rather see the boss dead faster then snivel about having to heal a fighter after a trap.

FYI, it's not crazy for a fighter to have a few points in CHA for intimidate, and/or a few points in INT for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip...

Like we've all been saying... different situations favor different builds... If all you do is run with the guild, and someone is always on a healer, and you do mostly end-game elite stuff, then yeah, specialize the heck out of your characters... Each of you can afford to be awesome at one thing and one thing only.

If you PUG a lot, or solo or shortman a lot and/or spend a lot of time in the rest of the game, sometimes without a healer around... then a splash can be a better build...

Also UMD is nice for RR gear and/or pure good stuff... There are advantages to being neutral, and then your UMD becomes useful to use certain weapons.

MrWizard
07-07-2010, 08:47 PM
ahh, the umd argument.... again. how many of you actually expect the fighter in your group to heal other party members? to raise dead? (which is soooo easy to do without umd) look, bob's gonna kill that monster with umd :D

fighters.... fight. thats what they do. 600-750+hp makes the evasion argument kind of useless. take the damage, take a heal, get on with your life without wasting stat points in charisma or your 1 skill point per level (unless you also wasted stat points in int as well) all the healers i know would rather see the boss dead faster then snivel about having to heal a fighter after a trap.

I regularly used scrolls and wands as soon as I could to heal party members between combats, shore up a fallen comrade that is not yet dead, and even buff myself and others.
At higher levels using the scrolls and wands allows a lot of good buffing and healing/rezzing when needed.

Can't do as much as a cleric, but as good as a non-enhancement healing no-man cleric, yes.

Evasion would be nice for fighting near or on traps, fire elementals, fire balls, and tons of spells that need a reflex save for sure..absolutely.

I do a ac tank and find UMD makes the build ten times better for sure. Evasion would be cool too, but I would have to switch armor-to-robe for those combats.

archora
07-07-2010, 10:35 PM
To say that taking lightning reflexes is gimped but multiple toughnesses isnt is just too funny.
Also to the point of denying yourself UMD and evasion while in a group being mass healed, what exactly would the point of either be in that situation?

Maxallu
07-07-2010, 10:38 PM
These guys are just projecting and vehemently defending their pure fighter builds as they refuse to consider that they might be anything less than ideal.

grodon9999
07-08-2010, 10:51 AM
These guys are just projecting and vehemently defending their pure fighter builds as they refuse to consider that they might be anything less than ideal.

I've not seen that at all and it simply isn't true. A well-built pure fighter is a work-of-art. I've got one in my guild who i love running with because he can trip anything, stun, take a hit, and beat raid-bosses like a rabid-animal. He also has enough intim to toss on a shield and hold agrro when he has to.

it comes down to play-style and who you group with. I've got a pure fighter and a barbarian that I just can't seem to get leveled up because of their lack of versatility. They are very good at beating things but can't pick a lock or heal themselves without going broke.

My Rangers an Clerics on the other-hand leveled up quickly because they could solo a heck of a lot better and a cleric can pretty much do any quest he wants to do any time he wants to do it.

Max DPS is a very viable way to go when you've got a group or people who you play with on a regular basis who can cover the needs in a party that you cannot fill. With the hard-core power-gamer groups that isn't an issue.

It's all a matter of personal preference and I don't think you'll be happy with a pure fighter, so don't play one.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-08-2010, 10:59 AM
These guys are just projecting and vehemently defending their pure fighter builds as they refuse to consider that they might be anything less than ideal.

Once again, you either fail to read, or you fail to comprehend the content.

Splashes and pures have different advantages. As said already, both are incredibly viable and can pull more than their weight in quests as well as raid.

Pure fighters are really one of, if not the best character split in the game for endgame raiding.
Whilst splashed are one of the best soloers and contributors in normal PUG questing.

Take your pick, but just because you only PUG and want to solo, doesn't mean that the epic endgame build is any less good, hell in that sense it's better. But as I'm neither narrow-minded nor stupid I see the purpose and viability of both.

KoboldKiller
07-08-2010, 11:14 AM
These guys are just projecting and vehemently defending their pure fighter builds as they refuse to consider that they might be anything less than ideal.

Wow you think awful highly of yourself and your ability to critique builds don't you?

Maybe you should start a thread on how to build every single class in the game so we may partake of your expertise and no longer be gimped.

yuerong89
07-08-2010, 12:20 PM
Wow you think awful highly of yourself and your ability to critique builds don't you?

Maybe you should start a thread on how to build every single class in the game so we may partake of your expertise and no longer be gimped.

:applause::applause::applause:
well said

Wizard_Zero
07-08-2010, 12:25 PM
I gonna make my first melee, but with all this commotion going on, I am so confused (5 pages worth). I want the best of the best, and I thought a pure fighter was the trick. But now everyone is saying 18/2 is the better split. I do a lot of soloing, but I also want the best DPS/AC I can get at lvl 20. Everyone has very different & opposing opinions, it's becoming pretty hard to tell who is right.

grodon9999
07-08-2010, 12:39 PM
I gonna make my first melee, but with all this commotion going on, I am so confused (5 pages worth). I want the best of the best, and I thought a pure fighter was the trick. But now everyone is saying 18/2 is the better split.

Best of the best at what? Pure damage output is a Fighter 20. 18/2 can get you evasion and either UMD or AC depending on if you go Monk or Rogue.



I do a lot of soloing, but I also want the best DPS/AC I can get at lvl 20. Everyone has very different & opposing opinions, it's becoming pretty hard to tell who is right.

You can't have it all, you can either be the best at one thing or have versatility to do everything well. Both are completely viable.

But since you mention soloing and not max-DPS I strongly suggest the Exploiter Ranger18/Rogue 1/Monk 1. This is the jack of all trades but master of none, a viable solo-build that can still do well in Epic and end-game raids. It will NOT match the DPS of an equally equipped fighter, but that fighter sacrifices versatility for damage output.

KoboldKiller
07-08-2010, 12:43 PM
I gonna make my first melee, but with all this commotion going on, I am so confused (5 pages worth). I want the best of the best, and I thought a pure fighter was the trick. But now everyone is saying 18/2 is the better split. I do a lot of soloing, but I also want the best DPS/AC I can get at lvl 20. Everyone has very different & opposing opinions, it's becoming pretty hard to tell who is right.

That's because neither side is right or wrong.

Your best bet is too look at the fighter forums and build forums and check those out.

PopeJual
07-08-2010, 02:00 PM
I gonna make my first melee, but with all this commotion going on, I am so confused (5 pages worth). I want the best of the best, and I thought a pure fighter was the trick. But now everyone is saying 18/2 is the better split. I do a lot of soloing, but I also want the best DPS/AC I can get at lvl 20. Everyone has very different & opposing opinions, it's becoming pretty hard to tell who is right.

There are lots of different good options for Fighters. There are lots of options that are significantly less good as well. It's pretty reasonable to be confused as far as I'm concerned.

Sernefarian
07-08-2010, 07:04 PM
Can't... finish... reading thread... too much pointless chest beating and egotism...

Gambill
07-08-2010, 07:47 PM
I personally love my lvl 20 dwarven fighter. Pure fighters can be self-sufficient if they are build right and you come prepared.

Every toon is a gimp toon until player skill is taken into account :) You can have the best class build in the game but if they player doesn't know how to use them then it will do no good. It all comes down to player choice and play style in this situation. If you want to have more offense then you go pure fighter. If you want to trade some offense for defense then you mix some rogue/monk skills.

If you think that fighters are a liability and not worth it then that is your decision.

Astraghal
07-10-2010, 05:19 AM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue would seem to make the class that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

What's wrong with a pure fighter that can intimidate everything on a 2, swimming in a sea of elite orthons and devils, taking no damage due to high AC and DR, while another pure fighter works his way in through the throng, tripping, stunning and beating them down as fast as any other class in the game?

jmonty
07-23-2010, 05:09 PM
These guys are just projecting and vehemently defending their pure fighter builds as they refuse to consider that they might be anything less than ideal.

meh.

dps is of the utmost importance for fighter-types when in a group, esp in raids. when solo there are hirelings for healing, and evasion isn't needed with adequate saves and hp.

basically it just comes down to priorities..

i might tr my pally tank into a fighter but i don't know if i'll take a level or two of rogue or not. just having the umd for teleport scrolls is almost worth it, personally ;)

Coldest
07-23-2010, 06:34 PM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue would seem to make the class that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

I believe you are wrong. I also believe you don't have a very good perspective for measuring the build differences. (Like the man trying to estimate the distance of a mile using a yard stick.)

Evasion:
The class is limited to not having evasion. You won't be standing in on Epic Velah breaths, nor Epic DQ rampage 10 x BBs(tried this on my 20 fighter. 640 +/- hp wasn't enough). Those are the only two occasions, that I can think of, where the lack of evasion comes into play. Gear and skill can take care of most anything.

UMD:
UMD is not an issue. You can "full heal. no fail" ala Ryu on a pure 20 Fighter.

The nice thing about the class though is you can go full Intimi/Defensive and still have decent dps. Or you can go full dps. It is a fun class.

It can take a bit more work and skill, than an easy button class does, but then again the more appreciable things in life usually do.

PatPhilosopher21
07-26-2010, 12:42 PM
All i have to say about this is that i am building a pure DPS Fighter , i did multiclass in the past with 2 lvls as a rogue. It dint really offer me what i was looking for. Oh yeah i get some bonuses from that , ive seen alot of fighters with 2 lvls of rogue , so what get ''Evasion'' , hrrmm , Fighter are supposed to wear heavy armor (for high ac) so how the hell would Evasion come in handy then ? I aint going to wear cheap light armor and get completly massacred as soon as i start a fight. And btw a pure Fighter is built for a specific Job , Tank or DPS , Yeah you can go Barb for DPS, but i prefer i better challenge , just wear heavy fort. and boost ac as much as you can and have some skills , well thats my point of view.
It all depends on the person playing , ive seen high lvl healers and casters that were not fit for the job even tho they had some very awesome build. (I.E. I saw a lvl17 Wiz with no FW....Hrmmm I guess we all think the same about this but anyways)

But im still new to playing DnD online , i am more used to playing the old way ;) But its all about who plays the char and how he plays it , ive seen alot of high lvl sorc and wiz that would be totally self sufficient and some that coulndt do anything else then be a burden for the group.

Anyways you can always disagree with me.

TheBroken_JPK
07-26-2010, 05:46 PM
All i have to say about this is that i am building a pure DPS Fighter , i did multiclass in the past with 2 lvls as a rogue. It dint really offer me what i was looking for. Oh yeah i get some bonuses from that , ive seen alot of fighters with 2 lvls of rogue , so what get ''Evasion'' , hrrmm , Fighter are supposed to wear heavy armor (for high ac) so how the hell would Evasion come in handy then ? I aint going to wear cheap light armor and get completly massacred as soon as i start a fight. And btw a pure Fighter is built for a specific Job , Tank or DPS ,.

A DPS fighter gains nothing by wearing heavy armor. You think 30-35 AC is going to stop something? Yea, its great while leveling at lower levels. Not so great when you realize that plate mail+5 is stopping you from avoiding all those AoE spells and traps, and is totally worthless in level 10+ content.

I think that is the flaw in the pure fighter DPS build. You're giving up evasion for heavy armor? How does that make sense, when heavy armor has no advantages to a DPS build at level 10+? How does 35AC at level 15 help you more than evasion would?

I understand that people who create toons specifically for raiding want to get every inch of DPS out of their build, and a pure fighter would make sense. However, for must players(lets be honest must players are leveling not raiding) splashing in some utility is far greater than the extra 5 or so AC you get from heavy armor.

Therigar
07-26-2010, 06:22 PM
I'm not buying. To me the fighter class is extremely limited, and splashing monk/rogue would seem to make the class that much better.


I may be wrong, but when I see a pure capped fighter I see a gimped toon who is a liability to the party before player skill is taken into account.

I've not read all the responses and can only speak from my experiences.

When I first learned of the Kensai PrE I thought that it would translate into extremely high DPS and that, on reaching the capstone, the highest DPS in DDO. Since that time there have been some changes to the way the fighter capstone works as well as changes to how the TWF line works.

Still, without greensteel dwarven axes I regularly hit for +30 damage and crit for +100. With the Kensai enhancements my crit range is +1 and until I craft greensteel I have improved crit. That means on normal attacks I'm getting normal hits 16/20, crits 3/20 and miss 1/20. In any 20 attacks I do 780 points of damage. That is with a 30 STR. I have no idea how many attacks I get in in 1 minute or what that adds up to for DPS. But, it is pretty good considering that my off hand is procing 80% of the time for 5 less damage per hit & 15 less per critical.

So, the reason to go pure fighter is the DPS.

Having said that, I might not go pure fighter on a character again. I have to see what happens when I finally reach L20 and take the capstone. I might go fighter 18/ranger 2 instead. The reasoning is simple: bow strength, free TWF feat and FE:Evil Outsiders. Freeing up an extra feat would be useful and getting those 3 for free might more than compensate for missing the capstone.

PopeJual
07-26-2010, 08:27 PM
Both multiclass with Fighter splashed into it and Fighter with something else splashed into it make sense to me. Pure Fighter also makes sense to me.

I want someone to sell me on pure (20) Barbarian.

Baloran
07-27-2010, 01:46 AM
I am currently leveling a dwarfen kensai fighter (THF, so dex is not that high). I either solo with a cleric hireling or I group with my guild. I usually get the elemental resist buffs (House P) before questing and I have some Resist/Protection Items/Clickys on me as well.

Up to now, I didn't miss evasion at all. Compared with the continous melee damage I take, the half damage after a successfull reflex save (even with evasion I would take full damage at a failed save) is definitely neglectable.

On the other hand, if I had taken one or two level of rogue already, I would have had to wait for the nice fighter feats/enhancements one or two levels longer. Soloning or in a group - a level 12 fighter with Power Surge is much better in melee than a level 11 fighter/1 rogue (better to-hit, higher damage, higher DC for trip/stunning). So for me, adding one or two levels of rogue/monk would only be an option at level 19-20.

Another, "very important" reason not to take evasion: I think a fighter should wear Full Plate just for the looks - dwarfen fighters in robes look stupid :-P

More seriously: If I need AC (for example you just want to run somewhere without fighting or for intimi-tanking) I can always switch on CE, pull out my +5 tower shield, drink a Barkskin pot and suddenly my +5 Full Plate is usefull again. If I would go for evasion, I would need to switch my robe/light armor to put on a full plate which takes too long for me.

So in the end, it just depends on your personal flavor - play what you want to play - both fighter builds (18/2) and (20) have their unique strengths and it depends mostly on your playstyle what fits you better. None of them is "gimped" compared to the other.

Cheers

Baloran

Timjc86
07-27-2010, 02:17 AM
Take a few steps back and y'all might see this thread for what it is:

http://www.bsckids.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/TROLL-BANK-ALL.jpg

Edit: first pic didn't turn out so well - trying another.

P.S. The "both are right" answer is the correct one.

KuRRuPT
07-27-2010, 02:07 PM
Half Orc enough said lol..... that is what my lv 20 fighter is going to be....also I am pure on every toon have not seen no one yet that can out kill me....few get close but I all ways come out on top....