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View Full Version : Any suggestions to address epic tank discontent?



LuckyCuss
07-05-2010, 07:59 AM
Let me start by saying I play casters 80+ percent of the time so this is what I am getting from my guildies that usually tank. I do have several tanks but I only run them now for Epic raid farming so I am not a tanker.

Ever since epic came out I have notice the tanks in our guild have become more and more alike.

The high AC builds along with shields have been disappearing, dragon marks are gone, the trick weapons that wound, smite, disrupt, paralize, or enfeeble lay unused, fighting feats like cleave, whirlwind, improved trip, etc. are replaced with toughness, and the tanks no longer lead the charge but instead creep from firewall to firewall (cast by yours truely) to avoid agro.

One gal in our guild just finished using +3 hearts to convert her only tank to a sorc. Our best guild tank decided yesterday to moth ball his main, which got mauled by the latest changes, and play a WF mage. Another guild tank has moved on to barding, while a third quit this weekend and gave me all his stuff. Another high ac build in the quild complained that he can not go toe to toe with even one pirate in tide.

The just of the discontent seems to be that when you finally get to epic stuff, the tank roll seems to be forced into a narrow band of feats and builds. Toughness seem to be the most likely outcomes from reincarnation, even my casters all have one or more toughness feats. Evasion grows in popularity thanks to the queens blades, the dragon's breath, and the Von6 genie's new and improved lightning.

Suggestions on how to increase the variety for Epic tanks?

On a side note, I have noticed the casual players in our guild do not fair well on epic. Bards, casters and healers without evasion and/or lots of hit point get chewed up. Maybe we need a casual epic setting so casual players who have dragon marks, carry shields, and wear full plate, can participate.

Merlocke
07-05-2010, 08:02 AM
. Maybe we need a casual epic setting so casual players who have dragon marks, carry shields, and wear full plate, can participate.

this is sarcasm right?

Shaamis
07-05-2010, 08:07 AM
I understand what you are saying, but no.

I'm sorry, but epic is EPIC. Monks get abused hard in epic as well, but we find tactical ways to get through, not relying on feats, spells, and AC to get the job done.

Take Von 1 epic for example. you do it one way on normal, but you do it another way on epic.

Tactics are the key.

<pops lid on his Everfull Mug>

<takes a big drink of Stout Ale (his favorite)>

That is all.

<Goes back to drinking>

Lorz
07-05-2010, 08:09 AM
Build caster :)


Just kidding...and no I don't agree with ops ideas.

Dunklerlindwurm
07-05-2010, 08:10 AM
Epic is not for casual players! Its as simple as that.

Carlll
07-05-2010, 08:26 AM
In the epic VoNs you can try out Mass Hold instead of only Firewall and tell your melees to bring picks. Saves are pretty low and in autocrit the tanks will melt them down real fast.
Barbs and Kensai fighters can reach very high values for their Stunning Blow so they can send the monsters into autocrit themselves. Defender Fighters do ok too; Monks have lower DC but can spam Stunning Fist more often. Rangers and Paladins are somewhat hosed with the removal of Weighted and lower DPS in general.

Dont know how well Mass Hold lands in epic Desert nowadays (i think the saves have been reduced a lot?).

1 Toughness is mandatory, yes.

Not having a DPS option next to S&B is gimped, since at least 2 or 3 years already.
A Defender Fighter with the 2WFing feats does decent damage, bit less than a Kensai but it's ok. But not having a DPS option and then not even carrying/using a twohander simply screams "piker".

cpito
07-05-2010, 08:33 AM
Finally another reason to be thankful I play an AA ;)

epochofcrepuscule
07-05-2010, 08:41 AM
just 1 thing to say.

Read the description of Epic difficulty.

Go ahead, log in on a level 20 and go to it and click on epic difficulty.

Now, after you have read that.. do you still feel that just because someone is level 20 that they should be doing it?

Shuleagh
07-05-2010, 08:48 AM
This isn't anything that just became new with epic. Elite dungeons are absolutely trivial to do solo on an arcane/divine caster. Cast persistant aoe, run around in a circle for a bit is the order of the day. Turbine pretty much screwed up when they designed epic content since they just continued the pattern that high level elite dungeons were already promoting.

Fixing it would mean lowering the melee damage output on mobs so that its actually viable to tank. Would be nice if they gave these same mobs a ranged attack that could actually land on players to discourage easy kiting. Thought Turbine did something to help AC tanks in epic for update U5. That didn't help?

Angelus_dead
07-05-2010, 11:19 AM
Ever since epic came out I have notice the tanks in our guild have become more and more alike.

The high AC builds along with shields have been disappearing, dragon marks are gone, the trick weapons that wound, smite, disrupt, paralize, or enfeeble lay unused, fighting feats like cleave, whirlwind, improved trip, etc. are replaced with toughness
You are seeing a casual relationship that didn't exist.

Those character features you observed disappearing are suboptimal choices (or sometimes flat-out bad) regardless of whether Epic mode is in use. Some players have noticed for years that things like S&B and Cleave feats need improvement to be useful parts of DDO combat.

Junts
07-05-2010, 11:23 AM
They have. If you can reach an outstanding ac, non-named epic mobs, like other mobs, will not hit you.

This isn't true of named monsters, but its to be expected: Ac tends to trivialize them when it works.

sirgog
07-05-2010, 11:25 AM
This isn't anything that just became new with epic. Elite dungeons are absolutely trivial to do solo on an arcane/divine caster. Cast persistant aoe, run around in a circle for a bit is the order of the day. Turbine pretty much screwed up when they designed epic content since they just continued the pattern that high level elite dungeons were already promoting.

Fixing it would mean lowering the melee damage output on mobs so that its actually viable to tank. Would be nice if they gave these same mobs a ranged attack that could actually land on players to discourage easy kiting. Thought Turbine did something to help AC tanks in epic for update U5. That didn't help?

I've never been in an Epic group that used kiting for more than 2 or 3 encounters per dungeon (usually only against mobs with devastating melee/close range attacks like the Vulkoorim Rattlers in OOB). There are much more effective ways to kill things - straight up beatdown (any melee geared appropriately for Epics deals about as much damage as a crit firewall), auto-crit enabled beatdown (the default approach), and even threat tanking or intimitanking now that AC holds up in Epics for the first time.

Nezichiend
07-05-2010, 11:27 AM
All tanks should have a dps option, especially if they are a fighter. My Stalwart Defender guildy does pretty good in epics and is a welcome addition to my parties. In epics, it is usually the caster that are the "tanks" because they are the ones who usually get agro of everything. Tanks in DDO are very specialized characters which are really only useful in a few quests: raids where the boss agros on 1 person; such as ToD and VoD, sometimes epic DQ but then the intim DC is really high which makes it very difficult.

BlackSteel
07-05-2010, 11:30 AM
theres no need for the 'shield' tank in most content where the primary strategy is hold monster or stuns. any tank still wearing a shield with 3 mobs in front of him that are wrapped in blue bands is doing his party a disservice by not breaking out two weapons or a two hander.

epic hasnt changed anything, the same applies to the style that always has. When properly geared, they can be very useful for tanking the meanest of the mean, the big bosses in the game. But in a party with other good players, they're just not needed when fighting your run of the mill trash monsters. They can make a difference in a suboptimal party with bad players, BUT any good player/build could do the same.

maybe its been awhile, or I've just been lucky to play with a few great players. But unless you're running wiz king or soloing epic, firewall has never been the main strategy in epics.

SolarDawning
07-05-2010, 11:31 AM
Monks get abused hard in epic as well, but we find tactical ways to get through, not relying on feats, spells, and AC to get the job done.


You're kidding, right? Monks are flat-out amazing in Epic. They're practically the kings of crowd control now.
With a DC 43 stunning fist, no non-boss mob in any Epic I've played has been able to make it's save with any regularity. And on a six second cooldown, well...
Not to mention our other crowd control tools: Shining Star is a very long duration dance effect that requires a will save. Very effective in Epic trash. The new Void/Dark/Void charm is also useful for a quick distraction.
My monk can take on groups of epic trash solo (3-4 of them) and win in short order.
Sneak up with a charm finisher prepped. Charm Target 1. Target 1 runs off to attack his friends. Hit Target 2 with a stun, fill up a lot of ki from beating on him for a few seconds... while you prepare a Shining Star. Pop enemy #3 with Shining Star, watch him dance. Keep dodging/stunning until you can Shining Star the other two, and just beat them down.

Junts
07-05-2010, 11:36 AM
theres no need for the 'shield' tank in most content where the primary strategy is hold monster or stuns. any tank still wearing a shield with 3 mobs in front of him that are wrapped in blue bands is doing his party a disservice by not breaking out two weapons or a two hander.

epic hasnt changed anything, the same applies to the style that always has. When properly geared, they can be very useful for tanking the meanest of the mean, the big bosses in the game. But in a party with other good players, they're just not needed when fighting your run of the mill trash monsters. They can make a difference in a suboptimal party with bad players, BUT any good player/build could do the same.

maybe its been awhile, or I've just been lucky to play with a few great players. But unless you're running wiz king or soloing epic, firewall has never been the main strategy in epics.

Depending on weapon availability, whacking with a lit2 khopesh might be more effective than a 2hander, if your 2hander is for some reason a falchion or greatsword, on autocrit mobs, due to the higher multiplier and the fact that sword and board attacks a little faster than two handed fighting does.

BlackSteel
07-05-2010, 11:47 AM
Depending on weapon availability, whacking with a lit2 khopesh might be more effective than a 2hander, if your 2hander is for some reason a falchion or greatsword, on autocrit mobs, due to the higher multiplier and the fact that sword and board attacks a little faster than two handed fighting does.

noone running epic should have a weapon availability excuse. particularly a tank who has to grind out more gear than any other build, having an offhand weapon available or a tier 3 two hander is almost trivial compared to everything else they need to grab.

yeh i agree with you that using a lit2 khopesh is better than picking up a plain jane +5 maul to play whack a troll with. But why cant that character have two lit2 khopeshes to use when not doing S&B, or a tier 3 anything greataxe. being unprepared is a very bad reason, its like volunteering a character to do shroud elite without a DR bypassing weapon, its greed for the favor while piking the quest.

similarly, a tank w/o a DPS set on hotswap is piking in epic. except its greed for ingredients and tokens instead.

Quikster
07-05-2010, 11:56 AM
noone running epic should have a weapon availability excuse. particularly a tank who has to grind out more gear than any other build, having an offhand weapon available or a tier 3 two hander is almost trivial compared to everything else they need to grab.

yeh i agree with you that using a lit2 khopesh is better than picking up a plain jane +5 maul to play whack a troll with. But why cant that character have two lit2 khopeshes to use when not doing S&B, or a tier 3 anything greataxe. being unprepared is a very bad reason, its like volunteering a character to do shroud elite without a DR bypassing weapon, its greed for the favor while piking the quest.

similarly, a tank w/o a DPS set on hotswap is piking in epic. except its greed for ingredients and tokens instead.

I must agree here. There is no reason for a poorly geared alt to be in epic, unless your running with friends and guildies and trying to get a jump on the grind or whatever.

Any melee running epic should have top tier weapons, not necessarily the best for every situation, but top tier weapons of choice for sure.

Xaxx
07-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Sorry dude if you aint got the equipment, hp, or offense for epic, you shouldnt be there. This is a problem with alot of the newer f2p people, they think that just because they hit lev 20 they should be able to go do anything. News flash guys, just cause you 20, doesnt mean that meleing shroud with your +4 flaming shortsword of pure good is a good idea (saw this within the last week). If you dont have atleast the basics of equipment for the raid, keep doing normal quests till you do, if you dont have the equipment for epics, keep raiding till you do. Just because you leveled doesnt mean your ready.

If your not in it for the grind to equip for epic, then your not gonna be in it for the grind for epic equip (which tbh most of its no better than most raid equip).