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DFLX
07-04-2010, 01:33 AM
Dear Turbine,


We all know that some stuns cause helplessness (Hold Person/Monster), and some do not (Soundburst). Please update stun tooltips to specify which ones cause helplessness.


Love,

A Cleric

azrael4h
07-04-2010, 09:00 AM
Hold Person isn't a stun. It's literally, HOLDING. The character is literally magically held, and unable to move or act in any fashion. They are mentally fully aware of what is going on. Whereas Sound Burst/Blast and such are stun effects. The characters are groggy, and swaying on their feet until they shake it off.

An example of Hold is me pinning your arms behind your back, while someone else punches you in the gut. Stun is hitting you over the head with a 2x4, making you stagger.

Symar-FangofLloth
07-04-2010, 09:53 AM
But Stunning Fist/Blow are 'stuns' and allow critical hits.
Soundburst is a 'stun' and does not.

azrael4h
07-04-2010, 10:41 AM
Stunning Fist/Blow hit someone upside the head physically. Sound Burst/Blast just makes their ears bleed. Sorta like listening to a yak's mating calls. Or watching CBS. :P

On that, I don't know. The OP stated specifically Hold Person/Monster vs Sound Burst/Blast. Probably more like that though, the sonic-based spells causing the affected to cringe, and cover their ears, whereas stunning blow is literally whacking someone all upside the head.

Gorbadoc
07-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Soundburst does not cause autocrits, because this would give bards, clerics and favored souls too much power, especially against enemy casters. The physical explanation is just for fun.

The real issue is that the current labeling system is ambiguous. It is not clear from descriptions whether a disable includes autocrits. Personally, I would declare a different word for each kind of disable:

One word that means "Victim cannot move or take actions, and all attacks on the victim are autocrits".
Another word that means "Victim cannot move or take actions, but attacks on the victim are still rolled normally".

The problem with "Hold" is that it's too specific; in common English, it's understood that 'hold' involves an ongoing restraint. Otherwise, I would say Stunning Blow should Hold its target, while non-crit disables Stun their target. We need two words that just mean "Unable to move well".

Cylinwolf
07-04-2010, 01:13 PM
The problem appears in paralyzation, too.

A paralyzing weapon does not cause autocrits, but Ghoul Touch does.

For general purposes, I would say that Soundburst would benefit for its description being changed to "daze," because currently that's technically what it's doing based on in-game mechanics.

MrCow
07-04-2010, 01:29 PM
The problem appears in paralyzation, too.

A paralyzing weapon does not cause autocrits, but Ghoul Touch does.

For general purposes, I would say that Soundburst would benefit for its description being changed to "daze," because currently that's technically what it's doing based on in-game mechanics.

A paralyzing weapon doesn't cause helplessness because it was changed early in the game to become a weapon of dazing (which is why it works on things immune to paralysis, like elementals). The description just hasn't been changed to reflect this for a very long time.

Soundburst doesn't cause daze and it would not be proper to call it a daze (it doesn't work on stun immune things like elementals, it does cause flatfooted which daze's condition doesn't). It causes a flatfooted stun, like most DDO magical stuns do. It is the melee-oriented (and psionic-oriented) stuns that tend to cause a helplessness stun.

DFLX
07-04-2010, 09:10 PM
So a paralyzing weapon doesn't cause helplessness, but Hold Person, which is described as paralysis in it's own tooltip, does. Also, this is the definition of Helpless in the compendium "Paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." While it doesn't specifically say stunned, it does imply it, and a number of stunning abilities do cause Helplessness such as Stunning Blow and Stunning weapons (formerly weighted), although not all, as Soundburst is described as being a stun in it's tooltip. Perhaps the easiest fix, rather than trying to redefine various types of immobilization, would be to simply tack on to the end of tooltips "This effect causes helplessness."

Gorbadoc
07-04-2010, 10:05 PM
I like that.

Declare that 'Helpless' means 'Subject to autocrits'.

Declare that 'Stunned', 'Held', 'Paralyzed', and 'Dancing' all just mean 'Unable to move or perform actions'. Based on what folks have pointed out so far, it sounds like the difference between these four terms centers around who is or isn't immune.

I'm a bit fuzzy on 'Dazed'. I seem to remember a slowing effect with 'dazed' in its description.