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sirdanile
07-03-2010, 04:12 PM
There is a large comparison of shroud items to epic items, most notably the fact that shroud items are 99/100 times much better for any given purpose.

Do you all want to know why shroud items are so superior? The Special Procs like radiance and lightning strike...or in the case of Min II the ability to pass most dr!

Eladrin and other developers working on items in general, Find a theme to the item and when it is made epic add a nice boost through that theme. For example Garo's Malice is sneak and fire, Add Radiance. Epic Antique axe is force and adamantine which indicates it is useful against constructs, Epic Construct bane or disintegrate Proc. See where i'm going with this?

Also when in doubt expand your library of weapon effects! It doesn't have to be a special proc from the shroud, it can be unique on it's own! For example the Epic Shatterbow (from update 6 lamannia previewing) Is sonic and construct themed, create a new proc akin to lightning strike that deals sonic or force damage and slap epic construct bane on there!

Some Suggestions for themes and abilities through those themes:

Offensive:

Anti Magic - Cast Mordenkainens disjunction on a (vorpal/crit) at caster level 20.
Force Items - Mind Killer: On a vorpal renders enemies unable to cast for 10 seconds and reduces all mental ability scores by 4
Soul Eating - 2% Chance to have a vorpal-like effect go off and immediately kill any enemy with a soul. You then gain 100 Hp and 50 Temporary hp.
Sonic Concussion - Small Chance to deal 600ish Sonic Damage (Like Lightning Strike)
Corrosion - Small chance to inflict a large Dot on the enemy dealing 1200 damage over 6 seconds.
Eye Gouger - On a vorpal Inflict Blindness for 30 seconds and deals 20 extra untyped damage every 2 seconds
Wider Range Banes: Compacts several banes into one weapon, such as Monstrous humanoids/giants/Humanoid or Evil Outsider/Lawful Outsider/Chaotic Outsider. If a monster happens to fall under two categories of banes the weapon deals only an extra 2d6 damage against them with no increase in enhancement bonus.

Defensive:

(Ability) Boost: When hit small chance of increasing the ability score such as constitution or strength.
Spell Turning: When hit with a spell that you save against you have a 20% chance of reflecting the spell back at the caster.
Exhaustion Guard: 10% Chance when hit to have The attacker become Enfeebled/Exhausted/More Penalty like the spells that apply those debuffs. (roll a d4 to randomly determine how severe the effect is.) The debuff cannot be applied twice to a single enemy.
Trap Deflection: When you save against a trap and take damage you negate half the damage dealt, when you fail you negate 1/4.
Vampiric Guard: When hit gain 10 Temporary Hitpoints, if these hitpoints wear off normally you then subsequently get healed for 100 Hp. 2% Chance when hit to cast enervation.

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 06:15 AM
Might come up with more potential "Mutations" as they call it after work.

sirgog
07-04-2010, 06:32 AM
A couple of other suggestions:

Damaging guards (similar to Lightning Strike Guard)
Swelling Acid - 2% proc rate when hit in melee (does not include ranged attacks). When it procs, this effect causes a tremendous explosion of acid to expand outward from the wearer. All foes within a Haste radius of the wearer suffer 80d10 Acid damage (Reflex DC 35 half, average 440 damage on failed save, 220 on success)
Cacophonous Dirge - 3% proc rate when hit in melee or ranged combat. When it procs, the attacker is blasted with sound, suffering 60d6 sonic damage and becoming deafened for 3d12 seconds (20% arcane spell failure, -50 Listen, -2 Reflex save). Deafness is cured by anything that removes blindness. Fortitude save (DC 35) negates deafness.

Incapacitating guards:
Constraints of Law - 5% proc rate when hit in melee or ranged combat. Attacker makes a Reflex save (DC 35) or is Chained, as per Suulomades chains, for six seconds. Red named foes are affected for only two seconds, purple named foes for only 0.5 seconds. Chaotic foes receive no saving throw against this effect.
Chaotic Surge - 10% proc rate when struck in melee combat. Chaotic power surges forth and assaults the senses, blinding, deafening, slowing (as per Slow spell), nauseating, or dealing 100 damage to the target. One effect is chosen at random each time this effect procs. Fortitude negates (DC 35), lawful foes receive no saving throw.

Gorbadoc
07-04-2010, 12:25 PM
And if you see a blue police box, go see whether the man inside would be nice enough to take you back in time, so you can make Greensteel a little less game-bendingly powerful. If you can work your way into a planning meeting a few years ago, try mentioning the words 'Diminishing returns on subsequent upgrades'.

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 02:23 PM
Some good ideas and such but I would be careful about upping these items too much. After running the numbers the new epic items that are fairly easy to acquire out of U5, much easier than grinding a dual shard item from shroud, are on par with similar greensteel items.

The antique great axe is behind min II by about 1.5 dmg per swing on raid boss devils and demons requireing good/silver or coldiron. However in the hands of a greataxe specced kensai or a Frenzied beserker due to adjustments in the crit range/multiplier the greataxe moves ahead by a small amount of dmg per swing. Not to mention the greataxe has a higher to hit so it is more dps in epic content as well since most mobs are not hitting every swing on a 2 or better.

Many people just don't see the benefit given by the increased base damage of these epic weapons as it's not flashy but just like the +5 regular weapon vs. the +1 flaming burst the +5 wins out. Many of these epic weapons while seeming plain jane are doing as much damage as the flashy greensteel and in many cases people don't realize they are doing more. The OP's 99/100 claim is way off base here.

I would love to share some of the numbers involved but I do all my work on Maple, a mathematical software that many don't have access to. If anyone is requesting a specific comparison between two items pm me and I'd be glad to help provide you some data.

Here's just an example of the kensai issue with the axe vs. a pit fiend named boss.

Antique Great Axe avg dmg per swing on a hit on 2 or better:

.80(13+6+1.5x+y+3.5)+.15(3(13+6+1.5x+y+z)+3.5+11)
simplified that is

28.725+1.875x+1.25y+.45z

Min II Great Axe avg damage per swing on a hit on 2 or better:

.80(10.5+5+1.5x+y+7+2.5)+.15(3(10.5+5_1.5x+y+z)+7+ 2.5)

or

28.400+1.875x+1.25y+.45z

x=str mod
y=additional damage(power attack/bard song/weapon spec feats etc)
z=seeker bonus

Since the variables here are all added the same the only thing to really look at is the original number which shows the Antique greataxe ahead slightly. Fortification is not factored in here but should effect both weapons almost the same but does favor the greeensteel slightly due to getting less damage off crits but the variable here is about .05 dmg per swing. However glancing blows are not factored either which would benefit the Antique greataxe even more due to it's higher base damage by about 2.5 damage per swing.

Look at the same scenario in an epic DQ where to hit values matter.

Antique Great Axe avg dmg per swing on a hit on 2 or better:

.80(13+6+1.5x+y+3.5)+.15(3(13+6+1.5x+y+z)+3.5+11)

or

28.725+1.875x+1.25y+.45z


Min II Great Axe avg damage per swing on a hit on 3 or better:

.75(10.5+5+1.5x+y+7+2.5)+.15(3(10.5+5_1.5x+y+z)+7+ 2.5)

or

27.150+1.800x+1.20y+.45z

Now the strength damage and additional damage modifiers come into play in our comparison and even not factoring those in the Antique Greataxe is ahead by over 1.5 dmg per swing.

Now add in the fact that the Antique greataxe is much better against golems, many neutral mobs, and better in an autocrit status and it pretty clearly outperforms the min II greataxe here. Not by a huge amount but it is an increase.

So for a weapon that is actually easier to acquire in terms of game time vs. a min II a Greataxe specced dwarf Kensai would be well off with this weapon as would actually just about all characters specced for greataxe. I think we should caution about moving the damage scale up too quickly as it makes it harder to balance content and future items will also be harder to make too much of an improvement on.

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 04:06 PM
The OP's 99/100 claim is way off base here.

I openly admit that was dramatic hyperbole, the original point remains valid though.


Now add in the fact that the Antique greataxe is much better against golems, many neutral mobs, and better in an autocrit status and it pretty clearly outperforms the min II greataxe here. Not by a huge amount but it is an increase.

Antique Greataxe is nice...other weapons like the epic versions of Garo's Malic, Bejewled letter opener, Bow of Elements(air), Collapsible Shortbow, Dynastic Falcata, Mirage, Sting, Thornlord, and Zephyr. Compared to a Min II or lightning strike these weapons simply fail to impress. I would also like to see the comparison between the Esos and a min II greatsword if you have it.


Many people just don't see the benefit given by the increased base damage of these epic weapons as it's not flashy but just like the +5 regular weapon vs. the +1 flaming burst the +5 wins out. Many of these epic weapons while seeming plain jane are doing as much damage as the flashy greensteel and in many cases people don't realize they are doing more.

The Flashy is what makes people excited about crafting and using shroud weapons, if epic is supposed to be cool as well it should be on par or better than a shroud weapon AND have a cool unique effect.


I think we should caution about moving the damage scale up too quickly as it makes it harder to balance content and future items will also be harder to make too much of an improvement on.

You have a point but Epic weapons should be the capstone of the damage scale because it is the end-game and in a more permanent way then when shroud was the end-game for a year or so there... I want to be able to take a look at the epic item and think to myself as a first reaction "WOW that is EPIC! I can actually use that!

Also an important thing to note I am also talking about epic armor and gear as well, not just weapons. Currently the weapons are the easiest to compare but that doesn't make accessories any less important. Keep in mind several things things - Unique, Flashy, Slot Consolidation (Practical Purpose).

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 04:21 PM
A couple of other suggestions:

Damaging guards (similar to Lightning Strike Guard)
Swelling Acid - 2% proc rate when hit in melee (does not include ranged attacks). When it procs, this effect causes a tremendous explosion of acid to expand outward from the wearer. All foes within a Haste radius of the wearer suffer 80d10 Acid damage (Reflex DC 35 half, average 440 damage on failed save, 220 on success)
Cacophonous Dirge - 3% proc rate when hit in melee or ranged combat. When it procs, the attacker is blasted with sound, suffering 60d6 sonic damage and becoming deafened for 3d12 seconds (20% arcane spell failure, -50 Listen, -2 Reflex save). Deafness is cured by anything that removes blindness. Fortitude save (DC 35) negates deafness.

Incapacitating guards:
Constraints of Law - 5% proc rate when hit in melee or ranged combat. Attacker makes a Reflex save (DC 35) or is Chained, as per Suulomades chains, for six seconds. Red named foes are affected for only two seconds, purple named foes for only 0.5 seconds. Chaotic foes receive no saving throw against this effect.
Chaotic Surge - 10% proc rate when struck in melee combat. Chaotic power surges forth and assaults the senses, blinding, deafening, slowing (as per Slow spell), nauseating, or dealing 100 damage to the target. One effect is chosen at random each time this effect procs. Fortitude negates (DC 35), lawful foes receive no saving throw.

Swelling Acid - Interesting, can also be applied to a melee weapon... though from reading it it looks like it deals MORE damage on a successful save.

Cacophanous Dirge - I like this one though the -20% asf wouldnt hurt anyone affected by this guard unless you count spells as ragned combat. Also including the proc on ranged combat should lower the damage compared to other guards due to the increased usefulness in more situations. Should create more "When hit with spells or ranged" guards.

Constraints of law - I LIKE THIS...VERY MUCH. Maybe reduce the effectiveness of the debuff on named enemies?

Chaotic Surge - I expect wild mage to get something like this... it looks nifty but it's lawfyl counterpart would be more effective when it does go off, maybe increase proc rate to 15% or increase chances of a stronger effect against chaotic enemies.

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 04:43 PM
Antique Greataxe is nice...other weapons like the epic versions of Garo's Malic, Bejewled letter opener, Bow of Elements(air), Collapsible Shortbow, Dynastic Falcata, Mirage, Sting, Thornlord, and Zephyr. Compared to a Min II or lightning strike these weapons simply fail to impress. I would also like to see the comparison between the Esos and a min II greatsword if you have it.



Garos malice is actually on par damage with a radiance II shortsword and paired with one of these in a rogue/monk ninja spy build could be quite deadly. I've actually considered getting one for my rogue as an off hander for epic since I use Wretched Twilight/Mentau's/Litany so it would give me the extra sneak attack bonus and negate the to hit penalty for not having a light weapon in off hand and allow me to keep my Lightning strike guard Cha skills cloak on full time to have no fail heal scrolls without an item swap.

The letter Opener is a bad melee weapon but im pretty sure it was meant to be.

collapsible shotbow is pretty bad but it is the only source of slashing damage on a bow.

Dynastic falcata in a full 20 pally build is the best weapon against Demon queen they could use far ahead of min II.

Mirage is a great damage weapon and debuffs at the same time. In case you didnt realize it now has base 17-20 crit range. This is a 13-20 with imp crit on a higher base damage weapon than any greensteel.

Dual stings on a lev 12 monk/x whatever almost beats out a handwrap using tod spamming dark monk just on it's damage alone. On any mob that is susceptible to con damage it is more dps due to the heath lost by con drop. And the devs have said they'd like tod to work with other monk weapons so if we see this implemented these willbe by far the best to use even with mobs taking no con damage.

Epic thornlord beats out any bow in almost any situation. Epic Bow of elements does the same except with the exception of lightning immune mobs (it's not listed in the guide for items but this bow has lightning strike and expanded crit range like silver bow.)

Zephyr is pretty situational but in a High dex low str ninja spy build for ac it's almost unrivaled damage.

All but two of the items you listed are pretty good dps items and will out dps many current greensteel setups. This is even more exagerated in epic content where getting auto-crits on mobs is that standard strategy and to hit values matter more.

I am not saying you are wrong and that some epics could use a little more flair but in many cases it isn't needed to make the item an upgrade over what's currently being used for many characters. What I would like to see is some expanded augments for the weapons actually. Make each of the alignment ones actually add 1d6 of that type of damage. Add (mob type) bane augments. An extra 2d6 and +2 enhancement against certain mobs would be a nice but not overpowering augment and could be swapped over time depending on content you are running. These are small increases in power to the weapon that give some more customization to your epic goodies.

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 05:01 PM
Epic thornlord beats out any bow in almost any situation. Epic Bow of elements does the same except with the exception of lightning immune mobs (it's not listed in the guide for items but this bow has lightning strike and expanded crit range like silver bow.)


Since I have not done the math with any of the other weapons I cannot say for sure but I can GARUNTEE that this is not true. Admittedly I have not seen the current update 5 Bow of elements(air) pic, I will redo the calcs for that bow when I do.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=246964



RESULTS: (UPDATED Completely)
Unwavering Ardency: 151.49817 DPS
Silver Longbow: 170.33857 DPS
Epic Shatterbow: 173.96773 DPS (Versus Constructs)
Epic Bow Of The Elements(Air): 176.94477 DPS
Epic Thornlord: 179.1357 DPS
Air-Pos-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow: 181.6906 DPS
Pos-Air-Airpos Greensteel Lightning Strike Longbow: 189.1857 DPS




I am not saying you are wrong and that some epics could use a little more flair but in many cases it isn't needed to make the item an upgrade over what's currently being used for many characters. What I would like to see is some expanded augments for the weapons actually. Make each of the alignment ones actually add 1d6 of that type of damage. Add (mob type) bane augments. An extra 2d6 and +2 enhancement against certain mobs would be a nice but not overpowering augment and could be swapped over time depending on content you are running. These are small increases in power to the weapon that give some more customization to your epic goodies.


I agree, the potential augments also need a second look at.

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 06:28 PM
Thornlord vs. Pos air air lightning II

Thornlord

.75*(9+8+4+x+y)+.20*(3*(9+8+4+x+y+z))

or 28.35+1.35*x+1.35*y+.60*z

Lit II

.85*(5.5+5+x+y+7+3.5)+.10*(3*(5.5+x+y+z)+7+3.5+11+ 11)+0.05(14)

or 23.450 + 1.15 x + 1.15 y + 0.30 z

+~15 damage per hit off lightning strike.

x=str mod
y=addtnl damage mod
z=seeker bonus

Using My AA stats

x=12 (34 Str)
y=14 favored +2 ranger tr +2 shintao set+2 Good hope clickie+2 rams=22 (elfs would actually get 2 more here)
z=6

Thornlord = 77.85 avg damage per shot
Lit II= 64.35+~15 average damage per shot

So pretty close here but Lit II is ahead by just under 2 points per hit
Add +7 additional for bard songs to y (9 warchanter-2good hope)

Thornlord 85.95
Lit II 71.25+~15

So yes here we are looking at lightning II being not even 1 point of damage per hit ahead but thornlord doesn't rely on an erratic 2.5% chance to proc a large hit and is more consistent with it's damage output. Also the damage range of thornlord is tighter meaning while lightning two has a larger highest hit possibility the thornlord will be more consistant at hitting the average versus falling under over the course of a quest/fight. Thornlord can beat the dr of anything the Lit II can and doesn't have anything resistant to parts of it's damage. Plus it gives +3 more to attack meaning any mob you don't hit on a 2 or better with the Lit II, Thornlord pulls way ahead. So in the right circumstance the Lit II is better but overall the Thornlord is a higher dps bow. Now granted if running elite shroud/vod/tod I'd use the Lit II due to fort issues but other than that I really don't even pull it out anymore.

Edited for rams might inclusion

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 06:37 PM
Thornlord vs. Pos air air lightning II

Thornlord

.75*(9+8+4+x+y)+.20*(3*(9+8+4+x+y+z))

or 28.35+1.35*x+1.35*y+.60*z

Lit II

.85*(5.5+5+x+y+7+3.5)+.10*(3*(5.5+x+y+z)+7+3.5+11+ 11)+0.05(14)

or 23.450 + 1.15 x + 1.15 y + 0.30 z

+~15 damage per hit off lightning strike.

x=str mod
y=addtnl damage mod
z=seeker bonus

Using My AA stats

x=12 (34 Str)
y=14 favored +2 ranger tr +2 shintao set+2 Good hope clickie=20 (elfs would actually get 2 more here)
z=6

Thornlord = 75.15 avg damage per shot
Lit II= 62.05+~15 average damage per shot

So pretty close here but Lit II is ahead by just under 2 points per hit
Add +7 additional for bard songs to y (9 warchanter-2good hope)

Thornlord 84.6
Lit II 70.1+~15

So yes here we are looking at lightning II being not even 1 point of damage per hit ahead but thornlord doesn't rely on an erratic 2.5% chance to proc a large hit and is more consistent with it's damage output. Also the damage range of thornlord is tighter meaning while lightning two has a larger highest hit possibility the thornlord will be more consistant at hitting the average versus falling under over the course of a quest/fight. Thornlord can beat the dr of anything the Lit II can and doesn't have anything resistant to parts of it's damage. Plus it gives +3 more to attack meaning any mob you don't hit on a 2 or better with the Lit II, Thornlord pulls way ahead. So in the right circumstance the Lit II is better but overall the Thornlord is a higher dps bow. Now granted if running elite shroud/vod/tod I'd use the Lit II due to fort issues but other than that I really don't even pull it out anymore.

It looks like you are not incorporating manyshot into that dps breakdown just at a glance, it is up 1/6 of the time and deals x4 damage after adding all the variables.

If you will let me I will quote this post in my dps calc thread where it would be more thoroughly debated and this topic can continue with the main focus being the addition of new cool mutations when designing epic items and the reasoning behind them.

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 06:38 PM
Double/posted in the wrong thread...

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 07:33 PM
It looks like you are not incorporating manyshot into that dps breakdown just at a glance, it is up 1/6 of the time and deals x4 damage after adding all the variables.

If you will let me I will quote this post in my dps calc thread where it would be more thoroughly debated and this topic can continue with the main focus being the addition of new cool mutations when designing epic items and the reasoning behind them.

This is not a Damage per second it is a Damage per shot. The manyshot and other factors (sneak attack slayer arrows) are all non factors in the bow comparisons and so not listed. The attack speeds for the two bows are the same so it be comparitive in dps which is relative depending on fight due to movement stopping to heal if needed etc. The best comparison between two similar speed weapons is by damage per attack not damage per second.

Yes I have no problem moving this to another thread but it is relevant to what your OP was in that you were asking for more dps on weapons that in all reality are already an upgrade over current items in many cases.

Cyr
07-04-2010, 07:55 PM
Garos malice is actually on par damage with a radiance II shortsword

This is a very small snippet of a larger post.

Let me say that this is the main failure that people see with epic items. People rightly expect epic items to be better then previous items not worse or about the same. They are the highest level items in the game and come from the hardest quests in the game. They are also not inconsequential to grind for a specific one (DQ for example is truly a chore to try and get one specific epic you want upgraded).

There needs to be a clear advantage to an epic item over a non-epic alternative.

The OP is spot on. Epics need splashy new powers or clear numerical superiority to old items. Otherwise what's the point of them? So you can throw them on an alt you never use when they hit 20? That's a pretty lame mechanic to keep people grinding away.

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 08:43 PM
This is a very small snippet of a larger post.

Let me say that this is the main failure that people see with epic items. People rightly expect epic items to be better then previous items not worse or about the same. They are the highest level items in the game and come from the hardest quests in the game. They are also not inconsequential to grind for a specific one (DQ for example is truly a chore to try and get one specific epic you want upgraded).

There needs to be a clear advantage to an epic item over a non-epic alternative.

The OP is spot on. Epics need splashy new powers or clear numerical superiority to old items. Otherwise what's the point of them? So you can throw them on an alt you never use when they hit 20? That's a pretty lame mechanic to keep people grinding away.

There is an extreme fallacy in this kind of thinking. As new characters are rolled up such as monk splash ninja spys to use shortswords they will not already have the greensteel items. These new epic items for update 5 are actually quite easy to acquire especially the malice as it only requires running the two shortest quests each done under 20 min in a good group. I for one would rather have this in an offhand than another greensteel for many fights it is more dps for running epic quests due to the higher to hit. So numerical superiority does exist here situationally as do all weapons when compared against each other.

I have stated earlier that new unique effects on epic stuff would be nice and I am not against the op on that but I also state that drastically increasing dps for epics over greensteel is a bad thing. Unfortunately coding new effects is often harder than giving old effects on items so they have done things that are easier like up base damage and the likes.

sirgog
07-04-2010, 09:53 PM
This is a very small snippet of a larger post.

Let me say that this is the main failure that people see with epic items. People rightly expect epic items to be better then previous items not worse or about the same. They are the highest level items in the game and come from the hardest quests in the game. They are also not inconsequential to grind for a specific one (DQ for example is truly a chore to try and get one specific epic you want upgraded).

There needs to be a clear advantage to an epic item over a non-epic alternative.

The OP is spot on. Epics need splashy new powers or clear numerical superiority to old items. Otherwise what's the point of them? So you can throw them on an alt you never use when they hit 20? That's a pretty lame mechanic to keep people grinding away.

Agreed.

The Shroud is extremely easy at level 20, yet it still offers the best rewards in the game - weapons with 95% of the DPS of the best epic weapons and tremendous versatility, and truly extraordinary accessories.

Even a Shroud accessory that had nothing other than one of the top-notch guards on it (say Earthgrab Guard or Lightning Strike guard) would be somewhat worthwhile to wear.

Epics are harder than the Shroud, so they should provide better rewards.

LeLoric
07-04-2010, 10:33 PM
Epics are harder than the Shroud, so they should provide better rewards.

Desert Epics are harder than the shroud and require more grinding than the shroud to get an item you desire.

The new U5 epics as well as sentinels epics (arguably even von epics) are really no harder than the shroud and a single quest is much quicker than a single shroud run. Also due to the low amount of named items in these packs and more specified places to get these items for upgrading it is significantly easier to acquire the stuff needed to make one than to acquire the ingredients to make a greensteel blank and then farm the ingredients and shards to craft a Tier 3 shroud item.

These have been out for less than a week now and I have made two of the epic items and am just a single piece off from making 5 more. This is running about 4-5 of the quests a day. The longest of the new quests after getting strats down takes up to 45 min and I am sure can be further reduced with strategy refining. The shortest we have done in under 10. A full run of all the quests takes around 2 hours.

Should these really be more powerful than shroud stuff which is arguably overpowered for this game? If they are on par with similar shroud items, which many can be shown to be, shouldn't that be enough for something that is arguably easier to get regardless of what the level requirement is?

sirdanile
07-04-2010, 10:47 PM
it is more dps for running epic quests due to the higher to hit. So numerical superiority does exist here situationally as do all weapons when compared against each other.

Personally I have not noticed myself missing much on anything other than my monk...especially with the ability to lower an enemies ac by 12 (Destruction/Improved Destruction) and the fact that auto-crit is also Auto-hit.




I have stated earlier that new unique effects on epic stuff would be nice and I am not against the op on that but I also state that drastically increasing dps for epics over greensteel is a bad thing. Unfortunately coding new effects is often harder than giving old effects on items so they have done things that are easier like up base damage and the likes.

I know you agree with me on most of my points but disagree on my claim about the usefulness of epic Items, you have some worthy counter-points yourself.

I admit coding new effects takes more work but it will truely make players happy and proud to have spent their time and money earning weapons of high quality. (I sound like that cold steel guy...)

I personally Think upping base damage is a good bonus to epic weapons, but they should have some sort of special draw that makes them worth using.

LeLoric
07-05-2010, 12:48 AM
Personally I have not noticed myself missing much on anything other than my monk...especially with the ability to lower an enemies ac by 12 (Destruction/Improved Destruction) and the fact that auto-crit is also Auto-hit.


Absolutely true there are ways to get the ac down but that involves dropping your dps both to swap to a different weapon set and then attacking with that vastly inferior dps weapon.

There are issues to hit in every epic quest for at least some of the mobs. Even if it's hit on a +3 or better it's there.

My AA has an Epic thornlord a 42 dex Epic spectrals and will still miss ~10% of the time with no bard around on the first shot depending on the mob. Of course that goes away somewhat as you advance further in your attack chain. I went into Von 2 today shooting some tharask hounds and was getting 20base+16dex+8thornlord+4spectral+4 gh+1weapon focus+2 ranger favored attack+1 halfling attack=56 first shot attack and was hitting on a 4 or better. So they have an ac of 59. These are about average for ac values in epic there are mobs that exceed 70 ac, have you fought the end boss in under the big top yet?. This fact alone makes bards the biggest contributor to party dps in epic as not only are they adding to damage values but also reducing the number of missed attacks drastically.

It also makes radiance a nice weapon for epics due to the reduction of ac when blinded as well as all players getting sneak attack bonus to hit. Unfortunately the blind mob shuffle is a pain in the butt.

sirdanile
07-05-2010, 01:08 AM
Absolutely true there are ways to get the ac down but that involves dropping your dps both to swap to a different weapon set and then attacking with that vastly inferior dps weapon.

There are issues to hit in every epic quest for at least some of the mobs. Even if it's hit on a +3 or better it's there.

My AA has an Epic thornlord a 42 dex Epic spectrals and will still miss ~10% of the time with no bard around on the first shot depending on the mob. Of course that goes away somewhat as you advance further in your attack chain. I went into Von 2 today shooting some tharask hounds and was getting 20base+16dex+8thornlord+4spectral+4 gh+1weapon focus+2 ranger favored attack+1 halfling attack=56 first shot attack and was hitting on a 4 or better. So they have an ac of 59. These are about average for ac values in epic there are mobs that exceed 70 ac, have you fought the end boss in under the big top yet?. This fact alone makes bards the biggest contributor to party dps in epic as not only are they adding to damage values but also reducing the number of missed attacks drastically.

It also makes radiance a nice weapon for epics due to the reduction of ac when blinded as well as all players getting sneak attack bonus to hit. Unfortunately the blind mob shuffle is a pain in the butt.

I have not run big top on epic yet actually. You can get destruction on your dt armor and it only takes one hit from a regular improved destruction weapon to apply the debuff for a full minute, though the bonus to-hit would be noticeable on end bosses in epic quests I suppose, yet the extra bonuses on most epic weapons is +1 or +2 to hit augmented which may or may not affect your ability to hit things reliably.

When they made the Esos +10 I think they were on to something.