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MrWizard
07-01-2010, 04:39 PM
not being a ranged dude, it is useless.

the 10% for double strike?

would 2 levels better be put into something else, anything else, or would you stick with 20 ftr now that they nerfed the combat speed?

I am making a new TR, but not sure if I want 2 of pally (for saves and heals) or 2 of rogue (for more skill points, umd, and the odd evasion needs)

(beware the trolls below. I am simply asking if the capstone is worth taking versus splashing as I truly do not know. Unfortunately some below take this as a personal attack on them and they are lashing out for some reason.

I hope if you are here trying to figure out if it is worth it or not, you will get some information to help you in your decision. Unfortunately, there are thread derailers here en masse for some reason.)

samthedagger
07-01-2010, 04:44 PM
I kept up with the Lamannia threads while U5 was being tested and most people seemed to think it was a slight reduction in DPS, but still worth taking. Of course, that depends a lot on your build. But I'm guessing you already know that.

Angelus_dead
07-01-2010, 04:45 PM
not being a ranged dude, it is useless.
Lol what?

The Fighter capstone continues to provide a very large benefit to damage output. What's changed is that it now gives less of a benefit to TWF style than to other combat modes, but it's still a big improvement.


would 2 levels better be put into something else, anything else, or would you stick with 20 ftr now that they nerfed the combat speed?
As before, the most reasonable choices to replace the Fighter capstone are two levels of rogue or monk for evasion plus UMD or handwraps.

MrWizard
07-01-2010, 05:22 PM
it used to add 10% to melee speed. That is now GONE. I know as I never use haste soloing and it was horribly obvious.
If I take a haste pot, it is about the same as before the nerf.

here is the new explanation, it clearly only adds speed to ranged. It clearly adds a whopping 10% to a chance to double strike.



Your mastery with weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal.

Grants a 10% Competence bonus to chance to double strike with melee weapons and a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with ranged and thrown weapons.



Again, I do not range and double strike 10% means little really.

it does nothing else...that is what is says now..it has been changed.


so, worth it, or better to flesh out your character a bit more with a splash of something?

vyvy3369
07-01-2010, 06:08 PM
so, worth it, or better to flesh out your character a bit more with a splash of something?
The only type of Fighter that was at all affected was TWF, and even then it's such a small reduction from before that it's barely even worth commenting on. Whatever your preference was prior to U5, it should remain the same now.

MrWizard
07-01-2010, 06:42 PM
I got it for the 10% attack speed.

That seemed to make my fighter a lot faster than now as far as combat.

vyvy3369
07-01-2010, 07:07 PM
Yeah, you swung faster before, but it's effectively almost identical damage output to before.

Brennie
07-01-2010, 07:28 PM
If you think of it like a 10% bonus chance to crit (A crit which can also crit again!), it suddenly seems a lot more appealing. Its not a perfect metaphor, but still gives somewhat of the same impression.

Yes, its more streaky than a straight 10% attack speed boost, but it still adds up to a lot of extra damage, especially for THF characters (less so for TWF fighters, but still worthwhile).

I didn't know about the thown weapon speed boost. Thats kinda neat! On my level 12 fighter, i actually find myself disposing of perched archer and other non-meleeable annoyances with throw weapons. Infact, I've found myself doing it enough that I'm examining my build plan and wondering if i can fit in quick draw (Which i was going to take at 14 anyway) and Brutal Throw (Which will have to replace great cleave or luck of heroes, neither of which sounds to stellar).

Angelus_dead
07-01-2010, 07:34 PM
Again, I do not range and double strike 10% means little really.
If 10% doublestrike means little then 10% speed is also unimportant.

old: 100 * 110% = 110
new: 100 * (2 * 10%) = 110

Chai
07-01-2010, 07:55 PM
If 10% doublestrike means little then 10% speed is also unimportant.

old: 100 * 110% = 110
new: 100 * (2 * 10%) = 110

Where are you getting the 2 from in the (2 * 10%) ?

I thought double strike was on the main weapon only.

old 200 * 110% = 220 which is 100 main hand plus 100 offhand both times 10% haste

new 80 + (100 * 10%) = 190 which is 100 main hand times 10% doublestrike plus 80 offhand

Now with a 2 handed weapon it appears to be equal number of attacks. - Just no glances while moving - DOH!!!

Angelus_dead
07-01-2010, 08:17 PM
Where are you getting the 2 from in the (2 * 10%) ?
From the word "double".


I thought double strike was on the main weapon only.
Yes, as already covered above. Multiple people have explained that the capstone nerf was to TWF, not melee in general. But the OP continued repeating that the new capstone is only helpful to ranged attacks.

Chai
07-01-2010, 08:54 PM
From the word "double".

One attack doesnt proc 2 more - it only has a chance to proc 1 more. Since that attack is already counted in the base number of attacks we are using the formula on, we dont count it again.

In 180 attacks (100 main + 80 offhand) there will be 10 more attacks by the mainhand for a total of 190.



Yes, as already covered above. Multiple people have explained that the capstone nerf was to TWF, not melee in general. But the OP continued repeating that the new capstone is only helpful to ranged attacks.

Its still helpful to melee, but not anywhere near as helpful as 10% haste. 30 less attacks for every 100 base mainhand is pretty significant. It sure makes it alot more of a debate and alot less clear cut as to whether or not to take the capstone, which is why he is here asking about it.

Is evasion + easy to hit 40 UMD for no fail heals + 1d6+5 SA damage + a point of dex + alot of skills being class skills now, worth sacrificing 10 hits every 100 main hand swings for a tank whose primary focus is not even damage? I would say yes.

My opinion is: if you are going for max DPS kensai - take the cap, but if you are going for stalwart, splash it up.

PopeJual
07-01-2010, 09:12 PM
Its still helpful to melee, but not anywhere near as helpful as 10% haste. 30 less attacks for every 100 base mainhand is pretty significant. It sure makes it alot more of a debate and alot less clear cut as to whether or not to take the capstone, which is why he is here asking about it.

In a lot of situations, it's better than an extra 10% haste.

In x seconds, an unhasted Ftr20 without the capstone can main hand attack 100 times.
With Haste, that same Ftr20 can attack 115 times.

With Haste and a 10% stacking attack speed boost, the Ftr could attack 125 times because speed boost stacking adds if I understand correctly.

With the new capstone, that Hasted Ftr20 can attack 100 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 126.5 times. Sure, that's "just" an extra 1.5% of the original 100 added on, but a Monk only gets 2.5% added on for the first tier of Wind Stance and I think everyone would like to get Wind Stance on their character for free if they could, yes?

It loses some of its attraction with Two Weapon Fighting, but for Fighters throwing around one weapon as Sword and Board or Two Handed Fighting, the new capstone is straight up better than the pre-U5 one.

PopeJual
07-01-2010, 09:14 PM
One attack doesnt proc 2 more - it only has a chance to proc 1 more.

When you're multiplying, "one more" is the same as "times two" if you started out with one.

Nandos
07-02-2010, 01:02 AM
If the second attack goes off, does it also have a 10% chance to process an additional attack?

PopeJual
07-02-2010, 07:11 AM
If the second attack goes off, does it also have a 10% chance to process an additional attack?

That would be cool, but it would also be a potentially infinite loop and that is a Bad Thing(tm). Even if Turbine were okay with the potential for massive damage, they would not be okay with the potential for crashing a server.

Also, Doublestrike attacks do not currently have a chance to proc and off-hand attack (although they should).

Sinni
07-02-2010, 07:26 AM
Its still helpful to melee, but not anywhere near as helpful as 10% haste. 30 less attacks for every 100 base mainhand is pretty significant. It sure makes it alot more of a debate and alot less clear cut as to whether or not to take the capstone, which is why he is here asking about it.

How do you come to the conclusion it's a difference for 30 attacks between the new and the old capstone? you must NOT compare old twf system + old capstone to new twf system + new capstone, only the capstone itself is to debate here

base: 100 mainhand, 80 offhand
old capstone: 110 mainhand, 88 offhand
new capstone: 110 mainhand, 80 offhand (double strikes can't proc offhand attacks)

and this also easily shows it's no difference at all in terms of damage output if you don't dualwield

Sinni
07-02-2010, 07:28 AM
If the second attack goes off, does it also have a 10% chance to process an additional attack?

no, the devs stated the double strike attack doesn't proc any other attacks

dragonlo
07-02-2010, 07:44 AM
bahhhh y go whimpy fighter when you can be dumb and strong like mighteriest barbarin.....imo^^

k1ngp1n
07-02-2010, 07:47 AM
I do believe the offhand can proc a double strike, however. It's essentially a 10% speed increase, just not in the animation.

Gol
07-02-2010, 08:20 AM
If 10% doublestrike means little then 10% speed is also unimportant.

old: 100 * 110% = 110
new: 100 * (2 * 10%) = 110
Math fail.

100 * (2 * 10%) = 100 * (20%) = 20. I think I know where you intended to go with that, but even then it was still wrong. Double strike is not intended to proc offhand attacks.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 10:07 AM
The OP is just so full of fail that I wont even bother. Just thought I'd throw in a fun fact here;
with THF, the new capstone is better than the old one, why? Because you can pull off double stunning blows for example, and as the dps is identical, that very small thing, makes the capstone for THF fighter better than it was.

MrWizard
07-02-2010, 11:04 AM
well, I am a TWF and I see less dps and slower animation indeed.

And 10% chance to double strike with a main hand swing does not mean it will 'proc' 10% of the time.

Maybe it will happen a lot, maybe it will rarely happen (ever beat down a mob with a vorpal before?)


The only thing I see for my twf is half of my attacks, the main hand attacks only, will get a chance of 10% a swing to 'double strike' for an extra hit.

Over 2 levels of pally or rogue, I don't know. That is why I posted it, to ask what everyone thought.

I can't tell when fighting when, or if a double strike even hits, I certainly have never seen an indication of it. It would be helpful if it 'looked' different in the log and in the screen visual (if it does, then I have never proc'd to my knowledge)

I just do not see the benefit of it for my fighter when I could spend those levels and skill points to make me more survivable, add sneak attack or saves, maybe more skill points, etc...even switch to evasion for some combats...

versus a possible 10% chance to strike one extra swing when the main hand weapon is used.


If I could tell when it worked, I could decide, but a haste pot and a splash of 2 levels of something else sounds way more powerful right now.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 11:12 AM
well, I am a TWF and I see less dps and slower animation indeed.

And 10% chance to double strike with a main hand swing does not mean it will 'proc' 10% of the time.

Maybe it will happen a lot, maybe it will rarely happen (ever beat down a mob with a vorpal before?)


The only thing I see for my twf is half of my attacks, the main hand attacks only, will get a chance of 10% a swing to 'double strike' for an extra hit.

Over 2 levels of pally or rogue, I don't know. That is why I posted it, to ask what everyone thought.

I can't tell when fighting when, or if a double strike even hits, I certainly have never seen an indication of it. It would be helpful if it 'looked' different in the log and in the screen visual (if it does, then I have never proc'd to my knowledge)

I just do not see the benefit of it for my fighter when I could spend those levels and skill points to make me more survivable, add sneak attack or saves, maybe more skill points, etc...even switch to evasion for some combats...

versus a possible 10% chance to strike one extra swing when the main hand weapon is used.


If I could tell when it worked, I could decide, but a haste pot and a splash of 2 levels of something else sounds way more powerful right now.

I'm not entirely sure you understand the concept of precentage, and random. The dps loss you had from the changes is so small, that you wouldn't even know that you lost dps, if it weren't for the fact that you lost some animation speed.
That's all it is, animation speed, sure you lost 3-5% dps as well, but trust me, you do not notice that.

"but a haste pot and a splash of 2 levels of something else sounds way more powerful right now"

Why didn't you just you a freakin haste pot before, they stack! No matter how you twist it, it still the best dps capstone in the game, on an already brutal dps class.

Sure, I'm all for some kind of sound effect when you proc a double strike (well, actually, there already is one, if you listen closely you'll hear 2 hit-sounds when it happens), but quite frankly, that wouldn't change how good it is in any ways. It would polish the game however.

Goldeneye
07-02-2010, 11:14 AM
Maybe 18 fighter / 1 rogue / 1 barbarian might be interesting:

1 Rogue:

Max UMD
Sneak attack (1d6 + 3 AP?)
Damage Boost / skill boost (minor)


1 Barbarian:

Rage: +4 STR (mini rages!)
+1 Damage (Power Attack AP)
Sprint Boost

PopeJual
07-02-2010, 11:29 AM
And 10% chance to double strike with a main hand swing does not mean it will 'proc' 10% of the time.


Isn't that kind of the the definition of 'proc'?

Noctus
07-02-2010, 01:56 PM
Isn't that kind of the the definition of 'proc'?

Indeed.

MrWizard
07-02-2010, 02:31 PM
Isn't that kind of the the definition of 'proc'?


Indeed.

what I mean is that each swing of the main hand is a 10% chance. It DOES NOT mean that every 10 swings there will be one extra attack.

A lot of people will say '10 out of 100' will be an extra attack and such, but that is not true. It is 10% a swing. Period.

That can be 10 in a row, or none for 100 swings.


It does not mean it is worth going to 20 ftr just for this 'chance' that might not even exist since I cannot actually see it happen.
I believe there are or were a number of broken capstone (like the barbs) and I fail to see why this would be any different.

I am recording some combat to try to figure it out, but am failing to see 'double strike' yet in the log.

MrWizard
07-02-2010, 02:34 PM
Maybe 18 fighter / 1 rogue / 1 barbarian might be interesting:

1 Rogue:

Max UMD
Sneak attack (1d6 + 3 AP?)
Damage Boost / skill boost (minor)


1 Barbarian:

Rage: +4 STR (mini rages!)
+1 Damage (Power Attack AP)
Sprint Boost


I think the rogue would get you about 7-10 skill points for umd if taken for the 20th level and make the UMD work, unfortunately taking it early would not be recommended.
You also get a dex +1 at 1st? or is that 2nd?

that second level of rogue for evasion opens possibilities of switching to a robe for a fire elemental or traps and then switching back to the armor afterwards.

I thought of barb too, but I am going stalwart and I think I cannot have both on, or both do not stack...I assume anyway.

Like the sprint boost though

grodon9999
07-02-2010, 02:44 PM
2 monk, take two additional Toughness feats. You can never have too many HP when tanking.

Aaxeyu
07-02-2010, 03:12 PM
what I mean is that each swing of the main hand is a 10% chance. It DOES NOT mean that every 10 swings there will be one extra attack.

A lot of people will say '10 out of 100' will be an extra attack and such, but that is not true. It is 10% a swing. Period.

That can be 10 in a row, or none for 100 swings.


It does not mean it is worth going to 20 ftr just for this 'chance' that might not even exist since I cannot actually see it happen.

Troll much?

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 03:18 PM
what I mean is that each swing of the main hand is a 10% chance. It DOES NOT mean that every 10 swings there will be one extra attack.

A lot of people will say '10 out of 100' will be an extra attack and such, but that is not true. It is 10% a swing. Period.

That can be 10 in a row, or none for 100 swings.


It does not mean it is worth going to 20 ftr just for this 'chance' that might not even exist since I cannot actually see it happen.
I believe there are or were a number of broken capstone (like the barbs) and I fail to see why this would be any different.

I am recording some combat to try to figure it out, but am failing to see 'double strike' yet in the log.

In the same sense, the 10% ias from the old capstone could all have been misses, making it null and void. You clearly have no idea how percentages works.

Emili
07-02-2010, 03:22 PM
You all need to read release notes as double-strike works just as stated in them... All your math in this thread is way off... it is not anywhere near theold capstone in number of attacks ... it is a 10% increase for a double-strike to occur when (as noted in red in the notes)



A new mechanic has been introduced called "double strike." A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. Many speed bonuses have been changed to double strike effects.
The Fighter Alacrity capstone and the Paladin spell Zeal have been changed to a +10% bonus to double strike.
Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (The enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest III now grants a +5% double strike chance while wielding two weapons. (The Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.)


Combat changes U5 release notes... (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_5_Official#Combat)

There are a few things I know from testing this back on Lammania


It occurs on one target (in a group of mob only one may be double struck on a swing of the main weapon - compared to extra attacks from alacrity or haste which may change to any.)
Negates any speed or procs of the left hand - procs only right, dualing weapon complements such as cursespewer/smiter etc... is not as effective as once was)
double strike is a chance for an extra attack not an actual extra attack (you swing and then you roll for a chance to take another attack)
Capstone is a % increase to the chance for an extra attack ... not 10% extra attacks.

LordRavnos
07-02-2010, 03:45 PM
You all need to read release notes as double-strike works just as stated in them... All your math in this thread is way off... it is not anywhere near theold capstone in number of attacks ... it is a 10% increase for a double-strike to occur when (as noted in red in the notes)



Combat changes U5 release notes... (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_5_Official#Combat)



If that is the way it works its stupid. The way I take it to read though is if the target dies you do not get the 10% chance to double strike on a new target. By saying " blah blah on the target of the first attack", again my personal interpretation that is I hope is right, they mean on the attack that triggers it, not the first attack in the string, on hte monster you are still swinging at, cause it does say "any time they make a main hand attack".

If I am right or wrong please someone tell me so I do not spout wrong info :)

MrWizard
07-02-2010, 03:45 PM
aside from the forum trolls in this thread, I still think this is a legitimate question.


is the fighter capstone worth it now that it now longer adds 10% attack speed and instead allows a 10% to double strike on your main hand attack only (assuming twf)

I get that many of you think it is very equal to 10% attack speed bonus.
I see some of you disagree.

What I see is a bit of confusion and it leaves me unsure if it is worth it or not.


As for the trolls in this thread, can't you find something else to do with your time? Really.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 03:50 PM
aside from the forum trolls in this thread, I still think this is a legitimate question.


is the fighter capstone worth it now that it now longer adds 10% attack speed and instead allows a 10% to double strike on your main hand attack only (assuming twf)

I get that many of you think it is very equal to 10% attack speed bonus.
I see some of you disagree.

What I see is a bit of confusion and it leaves me unsure if it is worth it or not.


As for the trolls in this thread, can't you find something else to do with your time? Really.

For the hundreth time, yes it is worth, hell it's essensial if you want to compare at the top DPS.

As said, for TWF the dps drop is about 3-4%, for THF it's an increase in efficiensy, it's not THAT hard to calculate.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 03:51 PM
You all need to read release notes as double-strike works just as stated in them... All your math in this thread is way off... it is not anywhere near theold capstone in number of attacks ... it is a 10% increase for a double-strike to occur when (as noted in red in the notes)



Combat changes U5 release notes... (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_5_Official#Combat)



It's any attack, not just the first. They don't record when you first start attacking a single mob. (I've seen it proc on mobs (arretrikos for example) WAY after the first swing).

Chai
07-02-2010, 03:55 PM
aside from the forum trolls in this thread, I still think this is a legitimate question.


is the fighter capstone worth it now that it now longer adds 10% attack speed and instead allows a 10% to double strike on your main hand attack only (assuming twf)

I get that many of you think it is very equal to 10% attack speed bonus.
I see some of you disagree.

What I see is a bit of confusion and it leaves me unsure if it is worth it or not.


As for the trolls in this thread, can't you find something else to do with your time? Really.

My opinion is still: If you are going for "max dps kensai" then take the cap, but if you are going for stalwart, or just want a little more utility, a splash is no longer out of the question.

You have at least one level 20 fighter, if not more. Redo the enhancements and dont imediately take the cap. Then go do a quest you know you can solo. Afterward, take the cap, and then run the same quest at same difficulty.

Numbers are numbers, but the real question is: Are you satisfied not having the cap? If so, then splash away.

Emili
07-02-2010, 04:07 PM
It's any attack, not just the first. They don't record when you first start attacking a single mob. (I've seen it proc on mobs (arretrikos for example) WAY after the first swing).
Read it again for clarification - it works exactly as is stated in the release notes... Arretrikos for example is the target of your first attack... and as long as you have him targeted you will get a chance to double-strike on him off your main hand. on the target of the first attack

Horoth and Sulu are both next to you - one of them is your target the other is not you may double-strike on one and one only as defined - on the target of the first attack Horoth tatgeted this whole battle... double-strike chances. (other mobs around you will not get double-strike as Horoth is set at first attack. Until the target is changed and first seq attack resets it.

Vynnt
07-02-2010, 04:08 PM
OP, it sounds like you already made up your mind. Go with a splash.

Personally, 10% doublestrike is worth it. Even if it doesn't compare to 10% speed bonus and it is a chance, not guaranteed. Like mentioned, imagine 10% doublestrike as a 10% chance of a x2 crit (that can crit) on your main hand.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 04:11 PM
... and he is the target of your first attack... retarget and he is not.


First attack... Isn't that the troglodyte in part 1?

Exactly how do you purpose this is / could work(ing)?

Angelus_dead
07-02-2010, 04:12 PM
aside from the forum trolls in this thread, I still think this is a legitimate question.
...
As for the trolls in this thread, can't you find something else to do with your time? Really.
But it was you who created a thread with an inflammatory topic based on an obviously incorrect interpretation of a straightforward rule that had been repeatedly explained by the developer. Whenever someone offered another explanation you replied abusively and irrationally.

The blatant flamebait is posted by you. So who's the troll around here?

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 04:18 PM
but It Was You Who Created A Thread With An Inflammatory Topic Based On An Obviously Incorrect Interpretation Of A Straightforward Rule That Had Been Repeatedly Explained By The Developer. Whenever Someone Offered Another Explanation You Replied Abusively And Irrationally.

The Blatant Flamebait Is Posted By You. So Who's The Troll Around Here?

+1

Plutocracy
07-02-2010, 04:38 PM
what I mean is that each swing of the main hand is a 10% chance. It DOES NOT mean that every 10 swings there will be one extra attack.

A lot of people will say '10 out of 100' will be an extra attack and such, but that is not true. It is 10% a swing. Period.

That can be 10 in a row, or none for 100 swings.


10% a swing, over a 10,000 swings will VERY close to 1000 extra swings. Over 100,000 swings, the deviation will be even less. If you make 1 million swings, the deviation is even less, and so on and so forth. If you play regularly, count on the laws of deviation.

In a microcosm, yeah it may be 2 or 3 extra swings for 10 swings, or it may be zero.

But any way you cut it, over time it is +10% DPS with a twohander, and well worth it. With TWF, maybe debatable.

PopeJual
07-02-2010, 04:51 PM
10% a swing, over a 10,000 swings will VERY close to 1000 extra swings.

Another thing to consider is the fact that for every potential person who is getting less than 10% extra actual swings, there's another potential person who is getting MORE THAN 10% extra actual swings.

Saying that it's worth less because "it's only a chance" is like saying high AC or Blur or Displacement aren't worthwhile because they only provide a chance for you to not be hit.

Emili
07-02-2010, 05:27 PM
First attack... Isn't that the troglodyte in part 1?

Exactly how do you purpose this is / could work(ing)?
Just as I stated... you have one mob targeted at first attack seq is set that main hand attacks have a chance to proc a double-strikes... it is no different than differntiating a caster casting FOD on specific target (every object in game had a unique id internally). You cannot double-strike a mob who was targeted at second attack, third attack or forth attack, come first attack (seq reset) again and mob targeted may be double-strike from that point on.

MrWizard
07-02-2010, 05:53 PM
But it was you who created a thread with an inflammatory topic based on an obviously incorrect interpretation of a straightforward rule that had been repeatedly explained by the developer. Whenever someone offered another explanation you replied abusively and irrationally.

The blatant flamebait is posted by you. So who's the troll around here?

um, you are.

I have not read anything where the developer explains anything. I am simply asking the community and expect both sides to come out so I can make a decision.

To call me troll for asking about something I do not know much about makes you the troll.

Your personal attack is uncalled for, abusive, and against forum guidelines...all for no reason other than someone asking if a capstone it worth it or not.

sorry, but you are being abusive.

shablala
07-02-2010, 06:31 PM
it used to add 10% to melee speed. That is now GONE. I know as I never use haste soloing and it was horribly obvious.
If I take a haste pot, it is about the same as before the nerf.

here is the new explanation, it clearly only adds speed to ranged. It clearly adds a whopping 10% to a chance to double strike.





Again, I do not range and double strike 10% means little really.

it does nothing else...that is what is says now..it has been changed.


so, worth it, or better to flesh out your character a bit more with a splash of something?

So 10% attack speed is SIGNIFICANT, but 10% doublestrike means Little?!

And people wonder why Devs dont take most of these complaints seriously.

Absolute-Omniscience
07-02-2010, 06:40 PM
Just as I stated... you have one mob targeted at first attack seq is set that main hand attacks have a chance to proc a double-strikes... it is no different than differntiating a caster casting FOD on specific target (every object in game had a unique id internally). You cannot double-strike a mob who was targeted at second attack, third attack or forth attack, come first attack (seq reset) again and mob targeted may be double-strike from that point on.


Obviously not how it works. But feel free to test it, I'll go with the more obvious coding way, and execution way till proven otherwise.

Thanks for explaining your line of thought though.

Angelus_dead
07-02-2010, 08:39 PM
I have not read anything where the developer explains anything.
Why not?


I am simply asking the community and expect both sides to come out so I can make a decision.
To call me troll for asking about something I do not know much about makes you the troll.
Your personal attack is uncalled for, abusive, and against forum guidelines...all for no reason other than someone asking if a capstone it worth it or not.
Those statements are incorrect, and are basically the opposite of the truth. It is quite easy to scroll up the page and read exactly who is trolling and making personal attacks.


sorry, but you are being abusive.
No, that would be the guy who started making personal insults in response to direct statements of external fact.

TheMeanDM
07-02-2010, 10:30 PM
In my opinion:

If you were a TWF, you are losing a little bit. +10% speed isn't at all equiv to +10% double strike---one is a set, fixed, and measurable addition. The other is a random chance on each attack you make that you'll make an extra attack.

If you were a THF, you are actually gaining a little bit, I think.

I feel that having the utility is better.

As you yourself have stated previously in other threads, mrwizard: mob hit points have decreased.

Thus, you can splash those two levels of whatever, sacrifice a bit of DPS, and still be "money ahead"....so to speak...because its going to take less to kill them. Sure, if you kept up your DPS, you might be able to kill them faster.....possibly +10% per swing faster :) :D

Gyries
07-06-2010, 12:42 PM
In any given 100 swings that can proc double attack you will get 10 or more additional "double strikes" around 55% of the time, where as before you would have a flat 110 swings 100% of the time. On average the change would be negligible if it were all attacks that could proc the double strike, but that is not the case as off hand attacks and perhaps some of the main hand attacks will not proc double strike.

The change is definitely a loss to where things were previously, and if it is only the first in the attack chain that stands a chance to double strike the gap widens even more. It is still a DPS increase no matter what spec you run.

As to the original post I think it is more viable for tank builds to splash a bit, and for DPS it is less damaging to not go pure fighter. You can also consider switching to the THF, especially if using D. Waraxe or Bastard Swords.

Some considerations:

2 Levels of fighter nets you +2 base attack, +1 to fort, +1 feat and Alacrity.

2 Levels of Monk nets you +1 base attack, +3 to fort/ref/will, +2 feats, evasion, wisdom to ac (when centered), +1 wisdom, stances, +1 intimidate (Way of the Badger) or other "Ways" benefits. etc.

2 Levels of Rogue net you +1 base attack, +3 reflex, evasion, 1d6 sneak attack, +1 dexterity, lots of inclass skills.

2 Levels of Paladin nets you +2 base attack, +3 to fort, wand use, charisma to saves, lay on hands, smite, +1 to charisma.

For a tanking focused Fighter I think the options for a 18/2 splash are looking much better than pure 20 especially a Monk splash. Alacrity was one of the main deciding factors in staying pure for me and now it does not have the draw it did.

PopeJual
07-06-2010, 01:41 PM
In any given 100 swings that can proc double attack you will get 10 or more additional "double strikes" around 55% of the time, where as before you would have a flat 110 swings 100% of the time. On average the change would be negligible if it were all attacks that could proc the double strike, but that is not the case as off hand attacks and perhaps some of the main hand attacks will not proc double strike.

The change is definitely a loss to where things were previously,

It's a very small improvement over the previous method for Two Handed Fighting over a large number of attacks because the doublestrike increase in attack rate multiplies with the haste increase rather than adding to it as it used to.

You do miss out on some attacks with Doublestrike if you are Two Weapon Fighting because the second strike cannot proc an off-hand attack.


and if it is only the first in the attack chain that stands a chance to double strike the gap widens even more.

This does not happen.

vyvy3369
07-06-2010, 07:33 PM
It's a very small improvement over the previous method for Two Handed Fighting over a large number of attacks because the doublestrike increase in attack rate multiplies with the haste increase rather than adding to it as it used to.
Attack speed increases were multiplied, not added, at least for as far back as I can remember.

PopeJual
07-06-2010, 07:59 PM
Attack speed increases were multiplied, not added, at least for as far back as I can remember.

I'm not going to argue with you because I haven't done any personal verification to test this for sure. That doesn't match the way that pretty much everything else in DDO and in Pen and Paper D&D work, though, so that would certainly be a big surprise to me.

Additive stacking:
In the time that it would take to make 1000 attacks without any speed bosts, you'll get
1000 + 1000*(.10) + 1000*(.10) = 1200 attacks for the following buffs
10% Fighter Melee Alacrity
10% Jorgundal's Collar

Multiplicative stacking:
In the time that it would take to make 1000 attacks without any speed bosts, you'll get
1000*(1.10) (1.10) = 1210 attacks with the same
10% Fighter Melee Alacrity
10% Jorgundal's Collar

Additive stacking:
In the time that it would take to make 1000 attacks without any speed bosts, you'll get
1000 + 1000*(.10) + 1000*(.10) + 1000*(.15)= 1350 attacks for the following buffs
10% Paladin Zeal
10% Tempest I melee alacrity (before U5)
15% Haste

Multiplicative stacking:
In the time that it would take to make 1000 attacks without any speed bosts, you'll get
1000*(1.10)*(1.10)*(1.15) = 1392 attacks with the same
10% Paladin Zeal
10% Tempest I melee alacrity (before U5)
15% Haste

Now, just about everything in DDO stacks additively by adding a bonus that is multiplied by the base amount rather than allowing bonuses to multiply with each other. The exceptions to this are uncommon, but VERY much appreciated. I'm thinking of things like spell damage increases from enhancements multiplying with spell damage increases from items multiplying with spell damage increases from metamagic feats.

I don't know of any source that actually lists which DDO bonuses/penalties stack by adding and which stack by multiplying (Edit: that I know of...). Anyone who would be willing to compile a list of these stacking types would be doing a great service for the DDO community. I'd do it, but I'm too lazy. :)

vyvy3369
07-06-2010, 10:43 PM
It shouldn't take too much effort to find the post - I think it was from Eladrin back when Monks were first being implemented.

An easier way would be to just take a look at the attack speed estimator spreadsheet that's probably still floating around - you fill in the highest bonus of each type, it converts them to (1 - input / 100), and multiplies them all together. So for example, a Madstoned (20% / .8) Capstone Fighter (10% / .9) w/ 30% Haste boost (30% / .7) had an adjusted duration modifier of .4788 (.8*.9*.7 = .504. The adjusted duration modifier listed is then .504 * .95 - I'm not quite sure where the .95 comes in, but I didn't create the spreadsheet, and it always matched up very well with my own testing so I didn't question it).

They tend to mix and match multiplicative and additive bonuses, but the notable multiplicative bonus is healing amplification. Other than the troublesome (and I still think buggy) Finger Necklace, all effects from a different source just multiply together.