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View Full Version : Defensive Stance - Defender of Syberis and Stalwart Defender



Zerkul
06-20-2010, 10:37 AM
It's known that in the current game the defensive stance (in all its forms... DoS1/2/3) +4 strength and +4 to constitution doesn't stack with rage spell or rage clickies (+2/+2)... Don't know if in Lamannia this has already been fixed but, i catch this occasion to remember DEVS to fix this bug because is much disappointing... They should be two different kind of bonus. People who don't want rage just stay out the range of it. Thanks for reading.

vyvy3369
06-20-2010, 11:02 AM
They stack just fine. However, for SD at least, most rage effects are removed upon entering a stance and you cannot benefit from rage effects while in a stance.

Dylos_Moon
06-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Its not a bug, its WAI, defender stances make you immune to rage just like tod boots make you immune to haste.

cdemeritt
06-20-2010, 01:40 PM
Not a bug... WAI... and glad for it... when you think about it, rage is about being so angry you can't be stopped, where the defender stances are about thinking about the best way to defend....


How many PCP induced rages keep people attacking long after most people would be dead or dying..... Think these people are thinking about protecting themselves at all?

Boromirs
06-20-2010, 04:03 PM
Not a bug... WAI... and glad for it... when you think about it, rage is about being so angry you can't be stopped, where the defender stances are about thinking about the best way to defend....


How many PCP induced rages keep people attacking long after most people would be dead or dying..... Think these people are thinking about protecting themselves at all?

Again, the defense != offense in defender mode..hence the unpopularity of S&B. Either a large boost to defense is needed perhaps shields being able to deflect most offensive directed spells (Rays, bursts, etc. not a finger of death type spell though or distintegrate) or something cool or unique about them needs to be implemented. As of now, they are BOOORING.

Quikster
06-20-2010, 04:04 PM
Again, the defense != offense in defender mode..hence the unpopularity of S&B. Either a large boost to defense is needed perhaps shields being able to deflect most offensive directed spells (Rays, bursts, etc. not a finger of death type spell though or distintegrate) or something cool or unique about them needs to be implemented. As of now, they are BOOORING.

The unpopularity of s&b has nothing to do with the defender line, it was very unpopular way before the defender line was introduced.

cdemeritt
06-20-2010, 04:18 PM
Again, the defense != offense in defender mode..hence the unpopularity of S&B. Either a large boost to defense is needed perhaps shields being able to deflect most offensive directed spells (Rays, bursts, etc. not a finger of death type spell though or distintegrate) or something cool or unique about them needs to be implemented. As of now, they are BOOORING.



Not entirely true... They are as boring to play as any other support class... (I also find playing a melee in raids very boring too.. Auto attack the boss, Go make a sandwich, comeback to loot).

The key to playing a defender is knowing when to put the shield away, and when it is most helpful....

recently ran my lvl 8 S&B pali though Co6 Hard, 4 manned at lvl, no rogue or healer... The Summoning pit one, the one most feared.... Got to the first door, dropped into stance and blocked while intiming... The rest of the party took out the mephits with ease, no-one died, or even needed the shrine after... Not always best to do this sort of thing, but a lot of fun when you need to.

However, I would like to see some Spell blocking features added to shield/armor or at least a bit more DR.

shablala
06-20-2010, 04:35 PM
It's known that in the current game the defensive stance (in all its forms... DoS1/2/3) +4 strength and +4 to constitution doesn't stack with rage spell or rage clickies (+2/+2)... Don't know if in Lamannia this has already been fixed but, i catch this occasion to remember DEVS to fix this bug because is much disappointing... They should be two different kind of bonus. People who don't want rage just stay out the range of it. Thanks for reading.

I dont know about the Paladin Pre, but with the warrior you cant be raged and go into the defender stance.

duhhh just saw that I am the 100th person to give the same answer...:P

shablala
06-20-2010, 04:39 PM
The unpopularity of s&b has nothing to do with the defender line, it was very unpopular way before the defender line was introduced.

As an advocate for the defender prestige on many threads, I would really like to know your insight why this prestige isnt popular. And please dont tell me because people like to see big dps number, I dont buy that. Many people love to play the tank role, but just arent doing it here.

Boromirs
06-20-2010, 05:45 PM
As an advocate for the defender prestige on many threads, I would really like to know your insight why this prestige isnt popular. And please dont tell me because people like to see big dps number, I dont buy that. Many people love to play the tank role, but just arent doing it here.

Its fairly simple why. There is a ton of people that LOVE to play the unbreakable tank but the problem is in this game it is A.) its not quite needed, killing things faster is premium and when you kill things faster you don't need D, the best defense is a better offense. B.) its kinda poo poo even when used. You still get killed, you just happen to stand there longer... and it doesn't really bring anything to the table that some other class or build can cover.

vyvy3369
06-20-2010, 05:54 PM
As an advocate for the defender prestige on many threads, I would really like to know your insight why this prestige isnt popular. And please dont tell me because people like to see big dps number, I dont buy that. Many people love to play the tank role, but just arent doing it here.
There are quite a few reasons why there aren't many SDs around. Just off the top of my head:

There isn't really a need to have one in any situation in the game, even though it does make a lot of the raids easier. You can also play an effective tank (for most content) without taking one of the defender lines.
A lot of people just don't play them well, and give the entire line a bad rep - I remember one Shroud where there were no fewer than 4 people shield blocking vs. Harry...
It requires a lot of gear to be a truly effective SD. Until you acquire that gear, you might as well just go Kensei.
Many people still don't trust them, even if there is one in the group. For example, I still see a lot of VoDs/ToDs insisting on a WF tank, or that want a SD to do ranged DPS in Epic DQ even if they could be tanking her. A friend of ours recently made a SD that tanks Epic DQ for us on occasion, and PUGs won't even let her tank VoD normal most times.
You don't usually need more than one such character in any group, while you can almost always use multiple "DPS" characters.

Boromirs
06-20-2010, 06:08 PM
There are quite a few reasons why there aren't many SDs around. Just off the top of my head:

There isn't really a need to have one in any situation in the game, even though it does make a lot of the raids easier. You can also play an effective tank (for most content) without taking one of the defender lines.
A lot of people just don't play them well, and give the entire line a bad rep - I remember one Shroud where there were no fewer than 4 people shield blocking vs. Harry...
It requires a lot of gear to be a truly effective SD. Until you acquire that gear, you might as well just go Kensei.
Many people still don't trust them, even if there is one in the group. For example, I still see a lot of VoDs/ToDs insisting on a WF tank, or that want a SD to do ranged DPS in Epic DQ even if they could be tanking her. A friend of ours recently made a SD that tanks Epic DQ for us on occasion, and PUGs won't even let her tank VoD normal most times.
You don't usually need more than one such character in any group, while you can almost always use multiple "DPS" characters.


Devs, should just fix this part of the game. I just don't understand why they don't add a few cool things for S&B and get it to be more popular, are they biased? Do they not think there is a problem? Do they not understand that if you make it, people WILL come. Maybe they do, and they are preparing us for some epic change to S&B.

vyvy3369
06-20-2010, 06:22 PM
Devs, should just fix this part of the game. I just don't understand why they don't add a few cool things for S&B and get it to be more popular, are they biased? Do they not think there is a problem? Do they not understand that if you make it, people WILL come. Maybe they do, and they are preparing us for some epic change to S&B.
Who said anything about S&B? There are very few instances where it's worth putting on a shield, once you have good enough gear where it's worth being a SD.

Edit: I happen to agree that S&B could use something, but that's a separate topic from why people don't run defender chars. Shields just don't really add much other than a slightly higher AC & some DR on occasion.

lord_of_rage
06-20-2010, 10:47 PM
You do not need to always have a shield on to use the defender pres. People who constantly think of DOS and SD as S&B do give them a bad name. I love the dos's I have. But I rarely strap the shield on. Defender builds can be fun and versitile if you dont pidgon hole them as purely s&b.

sirgog
06-21-2010, 02:06 AM
Its fairly simple why. There is a ton of people that LOVE to play the unbreakable tank but the problem is in this game it is A.) its not quite needed, killing things faster is premium and when you kill things faster you don't need D, the best defense is a better offense. B.) its kinda poo poo even when used. You still get killed, you just happen to stand there longer... and it doesn't really bring anything to the table that some other class or build can cover.

This is true at present endgame - and the absolute most deadly raid boss in the game, Epic Lailat, cannot be effectively tanked by either Defender build, as she spams trips that frequently knock down anyone with a strength score under 62, and AFAIK only Barbarians and Kensais can maintain a 62 Str for more than a few seconds. The second most deadly one (Horoth) does more spell damage than melee damage.

However, future boss encounter design may change this. If the Shadowfiends in ToD part 2, for instance, moved 20% faster and had a melee attack at ~+65 for ~200 damage (instead of a cold aura that pulses 250 damage per two seconds), players might put defenders on Shadow duty instead of arcane casters of favored souls.

mediocresurgeon
06-21-2010, 02:47 AM
the absolute most deadly raid boss in the game, Epic Lailat, cannot be effectively tanked by either Defender build, as she spams trips that frequently knock down anyone with a strength score under 62, and AFAIK only Barbarians and Kensais can maintain a 62 Str for more than a few seconds. The second most deadly one (Horoth) does more spell damage than melee damage.

I know of 4 Stalwart Defenders off the top of my head that do FANTASTIC jobs intimitanking epic Lailat. Lailat only knocks you over if (a) she is on top of you, or (b) if you are behind her and she tail whips. Because Intimidate causes her AI to attack you, not overrun you, it is exceedingly rare to see these guys get tripped. These 4 fighters increase party DPS by (a) allowing squishy DPSers and non-twitchy players to attack Lailat from behind without fear of dying and (b) allow the healer(s) to conserve resources by concentrating on a single target. The fastest, smoothest Epic DQs I have been in have been intimitanked by 1 of these 4 characters.

For the record, these SD fighters are TWF Dragonplate fighters that situationally swap to Epic Kundarak Warding Shield when shield blocking. Any raid that has one of these characters should consider themselves lucky.

OP:
Rage does not affect players in PrE defensive stances because anyone in a defensive stand does not want the -2 AC side-effect from Rage. (It is a common complaint that Rage is not dismissible by recipient.)

Krag
06-21-2010, 03:16 AM
Who said anything about S&B? There are very few instances where it's worth putting on a shield, once you have good enough gear where it's worth being a SD.

This is what I call poor mechanic. The performance difference between moderate and perfect gear should be 20-50% not 500-1000% if you want to make the style viable for more than a handful powergamers.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 03:45 AM
This is what I call poor mechanic. The performance difference between moderate and perfect gear should be 20-50% not 500-1000% if you want to make the style viable for more than a handful powergamers.

I see it differently. A basic SD with basic gear ( +4 insight on shroud weapon or dt armor, dt armor, +5 mts) and basic raid buffs (cleric, bard, ranger) can get to 81 ac blocking. Thats more then enough to tank any raid on normal. Why should he be able to do all the raids on elite as well with average gear? Why should he be able to drop the shield (9 ac, 14 if blocking) and still tank those raids unless he has exceptional gear?

My defender with high end gear can self buff to 76 twf. I have a ton of gear that makes that possible. Ok so I can tank horoth on normal self buffed, and the average build/average gear needs a shield, and a few buffs. I dont see that part of the mechanic being broken.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 03:46 AM
I know of 4 Stalwart Defenders off the top of my head that do FANTASTIC jobs intimitanking epic Velah. Velah only knocks you over if (a) she is on top of you, or (b) if you are behind her and she tail whips. Because Intimidate causes her AI to attack you, not overrun you, it is exceedingly rare to see these guys get tripped. These 4 fighters increase party DPS by (a) allowing squishy DPSers and non-twitchy players to attack Lailat from behind without fear of dying and (b) allow the healer(s) to conserve resources by concentrating on a single target. The fastest, smoothest Epic DQs I have been in have been intimitanked by 1 of these 4 characters.

For the record, these SD fighters are TWF Dragonplate fighters that situationally swap to Epic Kundarak Warding Shield when shield blocking. Any raid that has one of these characters should consider themselves lucky.

OP:
Rage does not affect players in PrE defensive stances because anyone in a defensive stand does not want the -2 AC side-effect from Rage. (It is a common complaint that Rage is not dismissible by recipient.)

Thats odd, ive meleed velah a ton, and she doesnt really need to have 1 tank holding her agro :p

Quikster
06-21-2010, 03:49 AM
Devs, should just fix this part of the game. I just don't understand why they don't add a few cool things for S&B and get it to be more popular, are they biased? Do they not think there is a problem? Do they not understand that if you make it, people WILL come. Maybe they do, and they are preparing us for some epic change to S&B.

I agree it needs to be fixed, but I dont think its as simple as adding a few things to a shield user. I think mob hps, attacks, and damage as well as clerics being so powerful come into play. When you start messing with these things you must keep other classes in mind so things dont get unbalanced in other ways. I dont see a few perks for s&b causing everyone to roll a s&b user.

Emili
06-21-2010, 04:58 AM
Not entirely true... They are as boring to play as any other support class... (I also find playing a melee in raids very boring too.. Auto attack the boss, Go make a sandwich, comeback to loot).

The key to playing a defender is knowing when to put the shield away, and when it is most helpful....

recently ran my lvl 8 S&B pali though Co6 Hard, 4 manned at lvl, no rogue or healer... The Summoning pit one, the one most feared.... Got to the first door, dropped into stance and blocked while intiming... The rest of the party took out the mephits with ease, no-one died, or even needed the shrine after... Not always best to do this sort of thing, but a lot of fun when you need to.

However, I would like to see some Spell blocking features added to shield/armor or at least a bit more DR.
Yes and I once solo'd Greymoon/Co6 elite on an elf ranger for house D arrows with but 12 con before any PrE's exisiated in the entire game. Could do the same on any character, class or build. Does not mean a thing.

I'll have you know also... there was a time back when the lvl cap was 10 ... SnB were the largerst portion of melee in general, and quite often the top DPS. Fighters (had +10 attack boost) and Pallies (broken divine favor) tamed Tempest Spine ... Barbs had troubles trying the side of a barn let alone to hit a black guard. TWF builds on 28 points were so thin some mob sneezed at them and they fell over, Rogues were near trap monkey and the poor clerics practically healbots, the favorite spell of the arcane was MM.

SD does not really need a shield these days nor do I see why they'd care... you can intimidate just the same without one and pretty much on many quest actually hold significant AC with a 2 hander or two weapons in hand as is with a defender.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 10:06 AM
The lack of being able to rage and madstone a Defender in stance is a big part of there lack luster DPS ...

people dislike s&b style because it doesnt produce the same benifits as for example Kensai ...

in the case of kensai same fighter (i will use mine for example) can get comparable intimidate (i think you gain 5 more for SDefender) and do 5 times the dps WITH A SHEILD far more str and con added with power surge ... and ac is not that much better in stalwart stance ... and if your ac doesnt hit the 70-80 range self buffed you might as well play a monk ... with no shield and forget intimidate at all ...

if they want people to WANT to be in S&B stance or for people to be excited about taking defender pre's (aside from the 100 ac pali builds which i am sure are a ton of fun if you want to do the work to hit those numbers) they need to remove the anti rage ..

let a stalwart defender choose to sacrifice his ac for more power ....

its his choice ...

doesn't over power stalwart so balancing is there .. and it gives people an option ...right now SD is not a good option when in comparison to KotC or Kensai

I also would suggest since Defenders get there movement drastically reduced they should get MORE str and con and DOUBLE the current ac bonus while in stance....

kensai get more (although limited number) and no movement penalty ... if the limited uses is in place of the movement penalty ... then why not make the bonus similar ...

either drastically increase the AC or drastically increase con and str ... OR BOTH !!!!

make s&b attractive enough and people will use it ... as it stands i would rather twf and thf ... even with the nerf in update 5 ....

and i sure as hell wouldnt SD again from kensai ... just not worth the downgrade in dps even as a s&b kensai i still do more damage and dont get slowed in the process.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 10:14 AM
The lack of being able to rage and madstone a Defender in stance is a big part of there lack luster DPS ...

people dislike s&b style because it doesnt produce the same benifits as for example Kensai ...

in the case of kensai same fighter (i will use mine for example) can get comparable intimidate (i think you gain 5 more for SDefender) and do 5 times the dps WITH A SHEILD far more str and con added with power surge ... and ac is not that much better in stalwart stance ... and if your ac doesnt hit the 70-80 range self buffed you might as well play a monk ... with no shield and forget intimidate at all ...

if they want people to WANT to be in S&B stance or for people to be excited about taking defender pre's (aside from the 100 ac pali builds which i am sure are a ton of fun if you want to do the work to hit those numbers) they need to remove the anti rage ..

let a stalwart defender choose to sacrifice his ac for more power ....

its his choice ...

doesn't over power stalwart so balancing is there .. and it gives people an option ...right now SD is not a good option when in comparison to KotC or Kensai

I also would suggest since Defenders get there movement drastically reduced they should get MORE str and con and DOUBLE the current ac bonus while in stance....

kensai get more (although limited number) and no movement penalty ... if the limited uses is in place of the movement penalty ... then why not make the bonus similar ...

either drastically increase the AC or drastically increase con and str ... OR BOTH !!!!

make s&b attractive enough and people will use it ... as it stands i would rather twf and thf ... even with the nerf in update 5 ....

and i sure as hell wouldnt SD again from kensai ... just not worth the downgrade in dps even as a s&b kensai i still do more damage and dont get slowed in the process.

You are mistaken. SD does not give you 4 ac. At a minimum it gets you 7 ac. If you have a little dex it gets you 9. That's almost 1/2 a die.

Why does one have to wear a shield to go into stance? Could benefit from the +4 ac twf or thf as well coudnt ya?

mediocresurgeon
06-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Thats odd, ive meleed velah a ton, and she doesnt really need to have 1 tank holding her agro :p

Doh!

Fixed. (It was late and I got my raid boss names mixed up.) :p

Quikster
06-21-2010, 10:29 AM
Doh!

Fixed. (It was late and I got my raid boss names mixed up.) :p

I think it was because you were in a von 6 piking, instead of pwning velah you were typing on the forums :) You did just finish running a von 6 right? :)

Regardless, we knew what you were trying to say.

Baahb3
06-21-2010, 10:35 AM
The lack of being able to rage and madstone a Defender in stance is a big part of there lack luster DPS ...



The +2 damage loss from not being able to have Rage on or Madstone activated while in stance is hardly an earth shattering lack of dps.

If they wanted to make S&B more interesting they would give those who use shields a small % chance to have their blocking DR applied to incoming hits even when not blocking.

This % could be increased with the Defender lines, enhancements or shield mastery feats.

Zerkul
06-21-2010, 10:44 AM
If you don't want rage you just stand out of the rage spell range... Tanking is not just about AC (Red Nameds hit you almost always anyway), it's also about having high constitution which is prevented if you cannot rage while in Defensive Stance. In my humble opinion things like are now are wrong.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 10:44 AM
Yes and I once solo'd Greymoon/Co6 elite on an elf ranger for house D arrows with but 12 con before any PrE's exisiated in the entire game. Could do the same on any character, class or build. Does not mean a thing.

I'll have you know also... there was a time back when the lvl cap was 10 ... SnB were the largerst portion of melee in general, and quite often the top DPS. Fighters (had +10 attack boost) and Pallies (broken divine favor) tamed Tempest Spine ... Barbs had troubles trying the side of a barn let alone to hit a black guard. TWF builds on 28 points were so thin some mob sneezed at them and they fell over, Rogues were near trap monkey and the poor clerics practically healbots, the favorite spell of the arcane was MM.

SD does not really need a shield these days nor do I see why they'd care... you can intimidate just the same without one and pretty much on many quest actually hold significant AC with a 2 hander or two weapons in hand as is with a defender.


I can disagree ... at lvl 10 my twf fighter had a ton of hps and decent ac

at the time lvl 10 cap was around i could hit easy 40 ac while dual weilding on a dwarf 28 point build ... before pre's

never had trouble with kill count and didnt die much at all (at the time he had 1 lvl ranger so he could even use heal wands)

and S&B was only popular amongst the try to get the highest ac in the game ... which while reported to be in the high 50' s I personally couldnt figure out how to get above 45 ... in todays game ... where many people know the power of UMD on melee classes and end game at lvl 20 ... its not impossible for a full fighter with no points added to CHA to use a full heal scroll with a umd 33.5 or better landing on a roll of 6 or better.

difference is in base ranks ...

at lvl 10 you only have 5.5 umd ranks ... even with the best items in the game at that level you wont hit high enough umd to make it on your own so its all about clickies for ac boosters like shield or the 10 second action boosts.

now that there are pre's if Defenders are gonna be the uber high ac but crud dps then the boost should increase that ....

maybe instead of str they should get +6 dex and +3 dex modifier to armor so they can get full advantage of the dex they recieve to ac ...

other wise .. .like i suggested more str more con and more ac in replace for movement reduction makes sense .... and having the ability to take rages and increase your usefulness should be ENCOURAGED ... if you want to make s&b attractive in todays game.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 10:46 AM
The +2 damage loss from not being able to have Rage on or Madstone activated while in stance is hardly an earth shattering lack of dps.

If they wanted to make S&B more interesting they would give those who use shields a small % chance to have their blocking DR applied to incoming hits even when not blocking.

This % could be increased with the Defender lines, enhancements or shield mastery feats.

while not earth shattering ...

+2 dps from rage ... +4 from madstone clickie ..+4 from madstone proc
** edit I am not at my computer and forgot the amount of str from madstone being told its +2 sorry for the mistake **

that is what 10 points of damage per swing your missing out on ???

**EDIT** that is 10 points of str not damage ... 10 points of str adds 5 points of damage sorry for the mistake.**
**re-edit ** 3 points of damage since the total add is 6 because of madstoned mistake ... ***

however i agree ... i like the idea of a DoD style high DR prock when wearing a shield and in stance makes even more sense then what i proposed !!

Quikster
06-21-2010, 10:54 AM
while not earth shattering ...

+2 dps from rage ... +4 from madstone clickie ..+4 from madstone proc

that is what 10 points of damage per swing your missing out on ???

however i agree ... i like the idea of a DoD style high DR prock when wearing a shield and in stance makes even more sense then what i proposed !!

huh?

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 10:55 AM
You are mistaken. SD does not give you 4 ac. At a minimum it gets you 7 ac. If you have a little dex it gets you 9. That's almost 1/2 a die.

Why does one have to wear a shield to go into stance? Could benefit from the +4 ac twf or thf as well coudnt ya?

even with 7 less ac ... though i havent been SD in a long time now ... forget how big a drop it was for my fighter .... still not even comparable to the dps difference and i still hit 50 ac self buffed twf kensai ...

with my hound shield i am still hitting high 60's low 70's when fully raid buffed and with the right gear on

ok so with my stalwart defender in full stance and right gear i am hitting high 70's (think highest i ever got on him was 79 while in shroud intimidating harry near pali and fully buffed in stance with shield and set bonus not including blocking)

but since my kensai can still intimidate the mobs ... can still shield up for bonus ac and dr if needed ... and hit a str of over 50 at times (and pretty much static over 40 in raids)

there is a huge disadvantage over the small advantage of SD ... and the slowed movement means you need to go in and out of the stance in regular gameplay ...

they bonuses they have now would be fine if there was no movement penalty .... but add a movement penalty and its just lack luster compared to other options.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 10:57 AM
huh?

pretty sure madstone clicky and proc stack ... and they stack with rage pot ..

its how my kensai breaks 50 str vs harry ...

every 2 points of str = 1 damage ...

i think I doubled my numbers by accident lol now that i look at it

think i ment 1+2+2 = 5

sorry lol

will edit

still 5 points of damage per swing is a lot of dps lost.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 11:00 AM
even with 7 less ac ... though i havent been SD in a long time now ... forget how big a drop it was for my fighter .... still not even comparable to the dps difference and i still hit 50 ac self buffed twf kensai ...

with my hound shield i am still hitting high 60's low 70's when fully raid buffed and with the right gear on

ok so with my stalwart defender in full stance and right gear i am hitting high 70's (think highest i ever got on him was 79 while in shroud intimidating harry near pali and fully buffed in stance with shield and set bonus not including blocking)

but since my kensai can still intimidate the mobs ... can still shield up for bonus ac and dr if needed ... and hit a str of over 50 at times (and pretty much static over 40 in raids)

there is a huge disadvantage over the small advantage of SD ... and the slowed movement means you need to go in and out of the stance in regular gameplay ...

they bonuses they have now would be fine if there was no movement penalty .... but add a movement penalty and its just lack luster compared to other options.

My sd is 2 pieces of gear from getting a 50 buffed str (2 difficult pieces, but 2 all the same :p ) 76 twf self buff ac is possible, and 80 intim. Defender dps is not that far behind for the bonuses it gets. It does take harder to get gear to make that ac really shine, but it shines nonetheless. I mean at 75 ac you can tank anything on normal, and thats easy for a defender to get.

mediocresurgeon
06-21-2010, 11:32 AM
I think it was because you were in a von 6 piking, instead of pwning velah you were typing on the forums :) You did just finish running a von 6 right?

You got me there! I had Epic Velah on the brain. And if a raid leader wants to pike in his own raid, that's his prerogative! :o


If you don't want rage you just stand out of the rage spell range... Tanking is not just about AC (Red Nameds hit you almost always anyway), it's also about having high constitution which is prevented if you cannot rage while in Defensive Stance. In my humble opinion things like are now are wrong.

Bards & casters don't always announce they are casting Rage. Especially nowadays, when most AC builds can just go into a defensive stance to get rid of the AC penalty if they wish to do so. IMO this mechanic works just fine and doesn't need any more Dev attention.

Astars
06-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Since SD is meh, I go Kensai 3 TWF and take up the hound shield if needed. Works just fine. You get an intimi bonus for kensai as well (+3 only not +6 as SD) plus a hooman gets lots of nice extra feats. Should hit mid 70s on intimi as TR and had 45 DR on my first kensai on Devourer. Prime DPS plus intimi blocking as needed (who needs AC if you can get 45 DR)

Cheers

Ast

Baahb3
06-21-2010, 11:59 AM
while not earth shattering ...

+2 dps from rage ... +4 from madstone clickie ..+4 from madstone proc

that is what 10 points of damage per swing your missing out on ???

**EDIT** that is 10 points of str not damage ... 10 points of str adds 5 points of damage sorry for the mistake.**

however i agree ... i like the idea of a DoD style high DR prock when wearing a shield and in stance makes even more sense then what i proposed !!

I was counting both the Rage spell and madstone effect in the +2 damage.

Rage Spell is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

Madstone Clickie is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

Madstone Effect is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

The con portion of the madstone effect is +4 but the strenght portion is only +2.

And as to regular rage, i.e. Barbarian rage, I don't know of any SD builds that take even one level or barbarian.

The clickie effect of madstone you get to keep, if you activate it before entering into the stance. When it runs out you just turn off the stance quick, activate your other boots, then turn the stance back on.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 12:08 PM
My sd is 2 pieces of gear from getting a 50 buffed str (2 difficult pieces, but 2 all the same :p ) 76 twf self buff ac is possible, and 80 intim. Defender dps is not that far behind for the bonuses it gets. It does take harder to get gear to make that ac really shine, but it shines nonetheless. I mean at 75 ac you can tank anything on normal, and thats easy for a defender to get.

gear intensive ...

as i said ... its based on what i have in gear ...

34 base str getting to 50 with just clickies ...

if i had a td ring with +3 str and a +4 tome i could get higher .... np

its just rage madstonex2 titans grip kensai powersurge ..

and twf 78 ac as far as i know is only possible on a monk splash, ranger or a pali

and its not 78 stand alone or even for 4+ mins

its 78 for 10 seconds to a min based on clickies and what not ..

I dont know all that many people hitting 78 ac on a pure fighter as a static AC (i would conisder static to include POTS and scrolls but clickies are not unlimited and you cannot count on buffs like ranger bark and resistation ... while it does show your max ac its not your AC actual.) ....

in SD stance i was only in high 60's while dual wielding .... maybe i am missing a bit .. .or maybe i just straight out remember wrong ... but i am a pure fighter no monk splash no plai splash ...

and i dont have the worst gear .. 24 dex with full benifit on FP DT +3 dodge bonus on DT (no chattering ring yet but when i get it i will add +4 ac boost from what i have now but not actively hitting titan still working on last item for my monk who is more gear driven at this point) hound shield and wear the hound bracers ...

i mean i am not a dex build ranger .... but i have a +7 bonus to ac from dex alone ...

then again i am not the most exerpienced with uber ac builds ...

but not sure how other then being a full dex build and splashing monk and starting with high wisdom .... that i could hit 78 for longer then one minute while twf.... that being said ... i also dont have combat expertise yet either.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 12:12 PM
I was counting both the Rage spell and madstone effect in the +2 damage.

Rage Spell is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

Madstone Clickie is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

Madstone Effect is +2 Strength = +1 Damage

The con portion of the madstone effect is +4 but the strenght portion is only +2.

And as to regular rage, i.e. Barbarian rage, I don't know of any SD builds that take even one level or barbarian.

The clickie effect of madstone you get to keep, if you activate it before entering into the stance. When it runs out you just turn off the stance quick, activate your other boots, then turn the stance back on.

rage pots usually .... no need to take barb rage if you have rage pots ...

that being said the frenzied kensai build can hit 60 str and break 1000 hps if done right ... however i dont have a lvl 20 build like that yet ...

even if my numbers are a bit off ... again i am not at home at my computer I am at work ... but even 3 points of damage per swing ...

that is what 5 swings in standard combo .... so 15 points of damage per combo ... you will prolly go through 100 combos on harry

so that is 1500 damage you miss out on in a raid ...

sweating the small stuff is the only reason why people make min II's rather then dual wielding lighting strikes ...

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 12:19 PM
Since SD is meh, I go Kensai 3 TWF and take up the hound shield if needed. Works just fine. You get an intimi bonus for kensai as well (+3 only not +6 as SD) plus a hooman gets lots of nice extra feats. Should hit mid 70s on intimi as TR and had 45 DR on my first kensai on Devourer. Prime DPS plus intimi blocking as needed (who needs AC if you can get 45 DR)

Cheers

Ast

you warforged? dont even know how to get a 45 dr without being a warforged with DoD ... since most dr doesnt stack as i understand it ...

on hack with a base cha of 6 i hit 65 intimidate fully buffed for hound ... almost never miss getting the big dog ..

hard and elite different story ... but ac hitting high 60's mid 70's fully buffed i can do ... even that though ... bard song only lasts so long ... sheild clickies even less ... in the end 90% of the fight is done with mid 60's ac with hound shield.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 12:24 PM
gear intensive ...

as i said ... its based on what i have in gear ...

34 base str getting to 50 with just clickies ...

if i had a td ring with +3 str and a +4 tome i could get higher .... np

its just rage madstonex2 titans grip kensai powersurge ..

and twf 78 ac as far as i know is only possible on a monk splash, ranger or a pali

and its not 78 stand alone or even for 4+ mins

its 78 for 10 seconds to a min based on clickies and what not ..

I dont know all that many people hitting 78 ac on a pure fighter as a static AC (i would conisder static to include POTS and scrolls but clickies are not unlimited and you cannot count on buffs like ranger bark and resistation ... while it does show your max ac its not your AC actual.) ....

in SD stance i was only in high 60's while dual wielding .... maybe i am missing a bit .. .or maybe i just straight out remember wrong ... but i am a pure fighter no monk splash no plai splash ...

and i dont have the worst gear .. 24 dex with full benifit on FP DT +3 dodge bonus on DT (no chattering ring yet but when i get it i will add +4 ac boost from what i have now but not actively hitting titan still working on last item for my monk who is more gear driven at this point) hound shield and wear the hound bracers ...

i mean i am not a dex build ranger .... but i have a +7 bonus to ac from dex alone ...

then again i am not the most exerpienced with uber ac builds ...

but not sure how other then being a full dex build and splashing monk and starting with high wisdom .... that i could hit 78 for longer then one minute while twf.... that being said ... i also dont have combat expertise yet either.

76 not 78, that is self buffed with no boosts on a pure fighter.

50 buffed str doesnt include titans grip, that would make it 56. To be clear, thats not 76 ac, 50 str. Those are two different gear sets (mainily swapping out chattering ring for +3 str) so it would be 72 ac in that situation.

I routinely break 80 twf in raids.

Yes its gear intense, i never stated otherwise. But an average geared defender can get a decent ac wearing a shield as well.

Kensai gets a boost in damage, sd gets a boost to ac. Im not sure what the issue here is with the actual pre. If you want to make an argument for the necessity of ac in game, thats a different story.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 12:28 PM
you warforged? dont even know how to get a 45 dr without being a warforged with DoD ... since most dr doesnt stack as i understand it ...

on hack with a base cha of 6 i hit 65 intimidate fully buffed for hound ... almost never miss getting the big dog ..

hard and elite different story ... but ac hitting high 60's mid 70's fully buffed i can do ... even that though ... bard song only lasts so long ... sheild clickies even less ... in the end 90% of the fight is done with mid 60's ac with hound shield.

And 65 is a decent intim score for someone not specialized in it, but its not enough to get the toughest bosses out there. Theres nothing wrong with that at all, so long as youre not trying.

For me, when I want someone that can intimidate the toughest bosses, I grab my defender. Can intimidate anything in teh game self buffed.

Ok so defender isnt your cup of tea for some people, but that doesnt mean its gimp'd. It has its uses, and can put out solid dps if needed. Not the top, but solid for sure.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 12:56 PM
And 65 is a decent intim score for someone not specialized in it, but its not enough to get the toughest bosses out there. Theres nothing wrong with that at all, so long as youre not trying.

For me, when I want someone that can intimidate the toughest bosses, I grab my defender. Can intimidate anything in teh game self buffed.

Ok so defender isnt your cup of tea for some people, but that doesnt mean its gimp'd. It has its uses, and can put out solid dps if needed. Not the top, but solid for sure.

i have the fighter TR feat for boosting intimidate and all +5 of the fighter enhancement line ...

without actually taking cha (which would cost me hps or AC to do so) dont know what i could do to raise it to the "NEEDED" levels for elite ... i hear of pali's hitting 80+

but that is cause they have cha ... doubt i would ever see someone with a 80+ intimidate with a base 6 cha ...

really i dont know how some make it past 70 with a base 6 cha (warforged and dwarf which seem to be the most popular intimidate builds)

if i was human ... my ac would suck the big one but i could prolly get to mid 70's while in SD stance (versitility to boost for a couple seconds)

but just like the AC thing ... what you can maintain and what you can get too for a couple seconds is a big difference .... especially with intimidate as it only sticks for 6 seconds at a time.

... I guess i need to go to regular forums and ask for info on how people get that kind of uber intimidate on there fighters without gimping them ...

but in my experience most people who are taking cha ... have crud for hps or cant hit a barn with a nuke when shooting from inside it with the doors closed.

fully raged i am over 600 hps (float between 602-645 depending on if i have my crazy rage necklace and other similar items)

standing hps are just over 500 (think 512 but i can never remember)

but in SD i only hitting 69-70 intimidate anyway so not hitting any crazy thing there ...

also when someone says its easy for a ________ to get ______ that shouldnt include raid gear ... +4 tomes ..... and the likes of NOT EASY stuff to get ...

its easy for a fighter to get a 50 ac ... just requires understanding of the enhancement system and base stats at the moment of creating ..

its easy for a monk to get a 55+ ac just needs to be dex wisdom build ..

its not EASY for anyone to hit 70+ ac ...

it requires a ton of gear ... lots of grinding ... best of the best stacking ac boosts ... full understanding of enhancements ... perfect stats to make maximum potential for dex on armor ... +2-4 tomes to fill out stats to even ... TRing for extra feats and more stat points ...

so on and so forth

nothing easy about that ...

show me a build for a 65 ac that doesnt require any gear other then standard +5 shield and +5 full plate ... and i will believe in a 78 with gear

and show me a 65ac on a TWF fighter and i will respec my guy tomorrow .......

but personally dont know how its possible to maintain highest possible str .. decent hps and still have a uber ac ...

and when you do have the uber ac ... its not that great over all since on hard and elite in end game ... ac is like wraping your body in plastic wrap ... it might save you from one or two hits but your gonna bleed out anyway.

and as far as S&B

you will put out much more dps as a kensai then you will a SD ...

SD is broken not because its not as powerful as kensai

but because the two are not balanced in what they present ..

kensai offers a higher dps option for fighters ... granting a 1 extra crit range and powersurge is a HUGE benifit to dps

SD offers small boost to str small boost to con ... small boost to ac ... and half movement speed ...
so small gain ... needs more feats that generally not taken by fighters in normal progression ... and has penalties applied when you do use it ...

its not balanced at all ... its the reason people want it fixed ...

same issue that is going on right now with shintao and ninja spy ...

if the pre's aren't balanced with what they do vs the other options given people will gravitate to the one with the best overall usefulness vs cost ..

this is why the suggestion to make defender stances better then they are is being put on the table ...

especially since Turbine has gone on the record stating they want to improve the usefulness and popularity of S&B (mainly cause it causes less lag in there minds so convincing more people to go S&B helps them to fight the lag and the flack they get from us about the lag)

cdemeritt
06-21-2010, 01:43 PM
Yes and I once solo'd Greymoon/Co6 elite on an elf ranger for house D arrows with but 12 con before any PrE's exisiated in the entire game. Could do the same on any character, class or build. Does not mean a thing.

I'll have you know also... there was a time back when the lvl cap was 10 ... SnB were the largerst portion of melee in general, and quite often the top DPS. Fighters (had +10 attack boost) and Pallies (broken divine favor) tamed Tempest Spine ... Barbs had troubles trying the side of a barn let alone to hit a black guard. TWF builds on 28 points were so thin some mob sneezed at them and they fell over, Rogues were near trap monkey and the poor clerics practically healbots, the favorite spell of the arcane was MM.

SD does not really need a shield these days nor do I see why they'd care... you can intimidate just the same without one and pretty much on many quest actually hold significant AC with a 2 hander or two weapons in hand as is with a defender.


Yeah... Well I'm sure someplace at some time, someone took a level 4 wizard and soloed Co6 elite... The quest, lvl and difficulty isn't the point.... the point is Under the certain circumstances, a difficult fight can be made much easier with a defender But this is just like anything else, a good cleric, caster, or whatever can also make that fight easier. It's just the choice of how. There is no doubt that a defenders DPS is never going to hit that of a kensai, but if built well, a defender should also has a offensive mode too, and have some form of DPS for times when Tanking isn't needed.

I consider Defenders to be a support, I can see why people who don't like playing support classes wouldn't like defenders.. But hey, there's nothing wrong with that. I would like to see shields get a boost, DR vs ray spells, better DR, something... to help with the Damage in/Damage out ratio...


Oh and defenders can madstone... My Dwarf TWF Defender regularly Double madstones raid bosses. You just have to hit your madstone before going into stance, and it usually procs within 15 sec of stating a fight, then just drop into stance...

Quikster
06-21-2010, 02:52 PM
i have the fighter TR feat for boosting intimidate and all +5 of the fighter enhancement line ...

without actually taking cha (which would cost me hps or AC to do so) dont know what i could do to raise it to the "NEEDED" levels for elite ... i hear of pali's hitting 80+ but that is cause they have cha ... doubt i would ever see someone with a 80+ intimidate with a base 6 cha ... really i dont know how some make it past 70 with a base 6 cha (warforged and dwarf which seem to be the most popular intimidate builds)


Needed for elite epic content yes.

I dont see many palys hitting 80 myself, most that do are heavily splashed. It costs some feats and some gear to hit those numbers, and yeah, usually some cha.





if i was human ... my ac would suck the big one but i could prolly get to mid 70's while in SD stance (versitility to boost for a couple seconds)

but just like the AC thing ... what you can maintain and what you can get too for a couple seconds is a big difference .... especially with intimidate as it only sticks for 6 seconds at a time.


My defender is human. I can maintain that ac for 6 minutes then it drops a point down to 75.





... I guess i need to go to regular forums and ask for info on how people get that kind of uber intimidate on there fighters without gimping them ...

but in my experience most people who are taking cha ... have crud for hps or cant hit a barn with a nuke when shooting from inside it with the doors closed.


Without a lot of work, yes. Mine usually is around 700+ tanking hp and can hit the effretti in epic von 6 with PA on.





fully raged i am over 600 hps (float between 602-645 depending on if i have my crazy rage necklace and other similar items)

standing hps are just over 500 (think 512 but i can never remember)

but in SD i only hitting 69-70 intimidate anyway so not hitting any crazy thing there ...

also when someone says its easy for a ________ to get ______ that shouldnt include raid gear ... +4 tomes ..... and the likes of NOT EASY stuff to get ...

its easy for a fighter to get a 50 ac ... just requires understanding of the enhancement system and base stats at the moment of creating ..

its easy for a monk to get a 55+ ac just needs to be dex wisdom build ..

its not EASY for anyone to hit 70+ ac ...

it requires a ton of gear ... lots of grinding ... best of the best stacking ac boosts ... full understanding of enhancements ... perfect stats to make maximum potential for dex on armor ... +2-4 tomes to fill out stats to even ... TRing for extra feats and more stat points ...

so on and so forth

nothing easy about that ...

show me a build for a 65 ac that doesnt require any gear other then standard +5 shield and +5 full plate ... and i will believe in a 78 with gear



You dont have to believe my 76 (once again not 78) with gear. It posted in the fighter forums if you would like to see it, or you can ask people on Sarlona who have run with me on my fighter. Honestly I dont care if you believe, its simple addition, figure it out for yourself if you want to.

What i consider easy is 1 shroud weapon, and a set of dt armor. Nothing hard about running the most popular raid in the game, which many groups are doing in 30 minutes or less. DT is with base armor stats no matter what rune you put on them, but its easy enough to get decent eldritch and tempest runes. As well as 1 +2 tome, which anyone should be able to get if they are planning on playing at endgame.

10 base
15 dt
6 dex (14 starting, 6 item, 2 tome)(mdb1 dt 2 sd 3 fam )
5 protection
2 chaosguarde
2 alchemical ritual
3 sd enhancements
7 shield (+5 heavy shield)
1 dodge (feat)
5 combat expertise
4 insight
4 sd stance
______________
64 stanced

3 bark pot
1 haste pot
______________
68 self buffed

2 recitation
2 ranger
_______________
72 easy raid buffs

4 bard
6 dos III paly
3 hafling
_______________
85 stars aligned raid buffed

5 blocking
_______________
90 stars aligned raid buffed in turtle mode

4 boost (required for sd 3)
_______________
94 short term spurts.


With just a little farming you get a +5 mithral shield for 2 more. A bit more farming and you get +2 for the tod set, or +3 dodge from dt or titan or both.




and show me a 65ac on a TWF fighter and i will respec my guy tomorrow .......

but personally dont know how its possible to maintain highest possible str .. decent hps and still have a uber ac ...


Neither do I. Its called a choice. If you want high ac, you arent going to have the highest possible strength. If thats what you are looking for you are being unreasonable.




and when you do have the uber ac ... its not that great over all since on hard and elite in end game ... ac is like wraping your body in plastic wrap ... it might save you from one or two hits but your gonna bleed out anyway.



Not sure what youre trying to say here. AC doesnt make you god, i think thats up up down down ba ba start iirc, but yes you are still going to take some damage with a high ac.




and as far as S&B

you will put out much more dps as a kensai then you will a SD ...

SD is broken not because its not as powerful as kensai

but because the two are not balanced in what they present ..

kensai offers a higher dps option for fighters ... granting a 1 extra crit range and powersurge is a HUGE benifit to dps

SD offers small boost to str small boost to con ... small boost to ac ... and half movement speed ...
so small gain ... needs more feats that generally not taken by fighters in normal progression ... and has penalties applied when you do use it ...

its not balanced at all ... its the reason people want it fixed ...

same issue that is going on right now with shintao and ninja spy ...

if the pre's aren't balanced with what they do vs the other options given people will gravitate to the one with the best overall usefulness vs cost ..

this is why the suggestion to make defender stances better then they are is being put on the table ...

especially since Turbine has gone on the record stating they want to improve the usefulness and popularity of S&B (mainly cause it causes less lag in there minds so convincing more people to go S&B helps them to fight the lag and the flack they get from us about the lag)

+4 to str +4 to con +3 to saves +6 to intimidate +7 ac +2 max dex bonus 6dr when wearing a shield

vs

+ 8 str, +1 crit range, +2 to hit, +4 damage, +8 to crits. +3 to intimi, bluff, concentration, and +2 action boosts.

I dont see it as being as unbalanced as everyone makes it out to be. For my money if the action boosts were equal, it would be pretty balanced. IMO you should have to give up dps to get ac and vice versa. I dont think the dps is as big a difference as people make it out to be. If we had fights in the game that lasted 30 + minutes it might make a difference, but as it is, most any boss fight is over within the 8 minutes of bard songs.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 02:54 PM
Yeah... Well I'm sure someplace at some time, someone took a level 4 wizard and soloed Co6 elite... The quest, lvl and difficulty isn't the point.... the point is Under the certain circumstances, a difficult fight can be made much easier with a defender But this is just like anything else, a good cleric, caster, or whatever can also make that fight easier. It's just the choice of how. There is no doubt that a defenders DPS is never going to hit that of a kensai, but if built well, a defender should also has a offensive mode too, and have some form of DPS for times when Tanking isn't needed.

I consider Defenders to be a support, I can see why people who don't like playing support classes wouldn't like defenders.. But hey, there's nothing wrong with that. I would like to see shields get a boost, DR vs ray spells, better DR, something... to help with the Damage in/Damage out ratio...


Oh and defenders can madstone... My Dwarf TWF Defender regularly Double madstones raid bosses. You just have to hit your madstone before going into stance, and it usually procs within 15 sec of stating a fight, then just drop into stance...

Id like to see defenders get an extra shield bonus simply by having one equiped as well as when blocking. I only gain 4 ac by putting a shiled on my defender, id like to see that number at 10, which would have to increase the mts to +15. I dont see this as game breaking as most things in this game still require dps to kill, but i think this would help more people at least stick a shield in their inventory.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 03:35 PM
You dont have to believe my 76 (once again not 78) with gear. It posted in the fighter forums if you would like to see it, or you can ask people on Sarlona who have run with me on my fighter. Honestly I dont care if you believe, its simple addition, figure it out for yourself if you want to.

What i consider easy is 1 shroud weapon, and a set of dt armor. Nothing hard about running the most popular raid in the game, which many groups are doing in 30 minutes or less. DT is with base armor stats no matter what rune you put on them, but its easy enough to get decent eldritch and tempest runes. As well as 1 +2 tome, which anyone should be able to get if they are planning on playing at endgame.

10 base check
15 dt check
6 dex (14 starting, 6 item, 2 tome)(mdb1 dt 2 sd 3 fam ) i get +7 check
5 protection check
2 chaosguarde check
2 alchemical ritual check
3 sd enhancements if i was still SD check ... currently kensai so no check
7 shield (+5 heavy shield) check ... but i have hound shield so it does more i believe have to check
1 dodge (feat) check
5 combat expertise just need +3 int tome ... 4 shrouds down no tome yet but i keep trying
4 insight will have on DT as soon as i get chattering ring which you dont have listed here
4 sd stance again stance i would have if was SD
______________
64 stanced (stanced as an SD with gear as you mention i would have 59 cause no comebat expertise and no insight but i do have chattering ring have to double check my numbers now cause i am pretty sure unbuffed I am not 64 as a SD when i get home i will compare better)

3 bark pot lasts 6 mins -
1 haste pot last 50 seconds? yeah better cast on you at least lasts 3 mins
______________
68 self buffed

2 recitation (scroll lasts 1.5 mins longer if cleric cast but think its only 3 mins with extend)
2 ranger (6 mins unless extended)
_______________
72 easy raid buffs

4 bard (lasts 3 mins and good luck getting bard to cast it every 3 mins even in raid situations ..)
6 dos III paly (have to be near a pali ... good luck getting one to stand beside you the whole mission let alone in hound)
3 hafling (halfling companion gives you ac? ... good luck finding a good halfling who has it and is willing to give it to you all the time)
_______________
85 stars aligned raid buffed

5 blocking yeah again i dont calculate this into my stats ... if it doesnt show up on the inventory or stat screen it doesnt count ... but good for situations where you block like hound raid
_______________
90 stars aligned raid buffed in turtle mode

4 boost (required for sd 3)
_______________
94 short term spurts.


With just a little farming you get a +5 mithral shield for 2 more. A bit more farming and you get +2 for the tod set, or +3 dodge from dt or titan or both.


see with your layout i should once i get a tod set (not that hard so long as i keep doing the mission cause i already have boots) and the chattering ring allowing me to get the insite +4 on my DT ...

I should be able to get a 97 while blocking?

wish it showed up like that on my ac screen .... i will have to get back on ya ...

but what i dont get is how do you have 24 dex maintain 34 str base and have 600+ hps and still have the cha for high intimidate?

are you a double tr or a completionist?

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 04:05 PM
Neither do I. Its called a choice. If you want high ac, you arent going to have the highest possible strength. If thats what you are looking for you are being unreasonable.





Not sure what youre trying to say here. AC doesnt make you god, i think thats up up down down ba ba start iirc, but yes you are still going to take some damage with a high ac.




+4 to str +4 to con +3 to saves +6 to intimidate +7 ac +2 max dex bonus 6dr when wearing a shield

vs

+ 8 str, +1 crit range, +2 to hit, +4 damage, +8 to crits. +3 to intimi, bluff, concentration, and +2 action boosts.

I dont see it as being as unbalanced as everyone makes it out to be. For my money if the action boosts were equal, it would be pretty balanced. IMO you should have to give up dps to get ac and vice versa. I dont think the dps is as big a difference as people make it out to be. If we had fights in the game that lasted 30 + minutes it might make a difference, but as it is, most any boss fight is over within the 8 minutes of bard songs.

ah .. ok so your low str means less chance to hit ... also means less overall damage ... while i am willing to give up somethings .... a twf cannot give up damage ... its the whole point of being a twf ... mass damage per second ...

however i can see this as a S&B issue vs high end dps ... the sacrifice you mention :)

however with your numbers i would still maintain uber ac with the few missing ingredients to my weapons ...

if i have to give up 3-5 points of damage per swing in return for getting a 80 intimidate .. i will choose to lose the intimidate ... your talking thousands of damage vs raid bosses ... and even worse if you can intimidate but cannot hit anything ... at least that is where dex characters have there advantage when it comes to ac building ...

-----------

if your hitting 90 ac you are a god ... check you monster manual .... mobs are not suppost to hit you .. .let alone hit you frequently ...

i self buff to 75 on my monk and while i can do amrath missions on hard solo (only sins fully need someone to operate switches and maze in gen point which i recruit after i have cleared the mission and new invasion cause i just dont have the experience soloing the end fight melee style and bastion cannot kill both end bosses cause the neg leveling is insane if i take my time to watch her health and use scrolls i can do weapon shipment but usually not worth the time for the cost )

and when i do even normal i am getting hit way more often then i am not ...

and that just isnt right ...

i should be getting hit about 50-60% of the time rather then 80-90% of the time with an ac that high against lvl 19 appropriate mobs ... let alone with dungeon scaling ..

but i can see some of this being fixed in the next update cause it at least seemed like i wasnt taking as much damage soloing gen point a couple weeks ago on lama ... or maybe they just lowered the mobs hps enough that i was killing them fast enough to equate to less damage ....

-------------------
the slower movement puts the difference at a pretty big margin

+4 str +4 con vs +8 str .... pretty even

+7 ac at cost of slower movement vs +1 crit range and +2 to hit ... not even at all ... remove the slower movement and where talking ...

bonus 6 dr when blocking +6 intimidate vs +3 intimidate and +2 boosts ... pretty even over all maybe a little nicer on SD side

but then it doesnt balance out anymore ...

kensai still forced to get +8 crit damage boost and the +4 damage from favored weapon ...

SD nothing in comparison ... unless you want to say the +2 dex bonus to armor which does help a little .. but really it only saves you a couple enhancement points in the end.

.......

when you put them side by side with comparable stats it makes it easier to see that stalwart needs to remove slower movement ... make the ac boost a +10 rather then +7

then i think it would be more balanced ...

but the big difference is in valuable contribution to party ..

right now you only need one intimidate character for any mission or raid ...

and S&B dps just isnt there ... not even after nerfing twf and thf ... they still out dps a S&B by almost double.

if the point of defender builds having bonuses when S&B is to make S&B more attractive then really Defender PRE's need to be WAY MORE attractive then other pre's for that class ...

other wise the benifits dont weigh out to equal.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 04:15 PM
see with your layout i should once i get a tod set (not that hard so long as i keep doing the mission cause i already have boots) and the chattering ring allowing me to get the insite +4 on my DT ...

I should be able to get a 97 while blocking?

wish it showed up like that on my ac screen .... i will have to get back on ya ...

but what i dont get is how do you have 24 dex maintain 34 str base and have 600+ hps and still have the cha for high intimidate?

are you a double tr or a completionist?


This isnt my build, this is an imaginary build with easy to get ac....you know, just like you asked for. I didnt include any hard to get gear whatsoever. I gave you a basic breakdown for unbuffed, selfbuffed, and raidbuffed.


Why all the hate on buff timers? Lol buffs are a part of the game. Haste lasts 4 minutes from a capped caster with extend. Im sorry if you dont like to drink a haste pot every 30 seconds or so, I do so from lvl 4, and so do a bunch of others. Get a clickie from the shroud for 1.5 min if you dont like it, but the fact remains it boosts your ac by 1, and in raids, you are rarely without it.

Bard song lasts 8 minutes from a capped bard (pure)

Recitation is easy to cast on you. You asked me for the build with basic gear, i gave it to ya.


All of this should show up on your screen like you are asking.

Quikster
06-21-2010, 04:24 PM
ah .. ok so your low str means less chance to hit ... also means less overall damage ... while i am willing to give up somethings .... a twf cannot give up damage ... its the whole point of being a twf ... mass damage per second ...


Im not sure what you expect here bud. You arent going to have a build that does max damage, has huge ac, and huge intimidate. It aint going to happen with any build from any class with any split. Its not the way it works. You have to sacrifice something to get something else. You want big dps, and hp, you give up ac, high intimidate, high umd, you want big ac high intimidate, you give up max dps.


You keep quoting movement speed, but really the only time i personally use it is real big fights or boss fights.

My build is a double tr. His breakdown is in the fighter forums, you can look anytime. Hes and intimitank with decent dps. My ac is just fine, i can tank any raid in the game on any difficulty and be an assest to the group. I can also dps any raid in the game on any diff and also be an asset. I constantly have agro from djinns in von 6 because im using PA while twf, when most others have pa off or are thf.

Regardless of my build, I gave you a breakdown of a basic build with basic gear that can tank any raid in the game on normal. You want to do hard you need a bit more gear. You want to do elite, you need a bit more.

SD's dps is just fine for the ac they can achieve. Do kensai have more? Sure. Could stalwarts use a bit of a buff to shields or something, i guess they could, but i wouldnt be using a shield much more than i do now, which is for a few raids.

Drfirewater79
06-21-2010, 04:38 PM
This isnt my build, this is an imaginary build with easy to get ac....you know, just like you asked for. I didnt include any hard to get gear whatsoever. I gave you a basic breakdown for unbuffed, selfbuffed, and raidbuffed.


Why all the hate on buff timers? Lol buffs are a part of the game. Haste lasts 4 minutes from a capped caster with extend. Im sorry if you dont like to drink a haste pot every 30 seconds or so, I do so from lvl 4, and so do a bunch of others. Get a clickie from the shroud for 1.5 min if you dont like it, but the fact remains it boosts your ac by 1, and in raids, you are rarely without it.

Bard song lasts 8 minutes from a capped bard (pure)

Recitation is easy to cast on you. You asked me for the build with basic gear, i gave it to ya.


All of this should show up on your screen like you are asking.

alot of stuff there i could see as not easy ... DT armor itself in todays pugs is not easy ... but i understand ... most people by lvl 20 who try will get a DT armor even if they dont get best stuff on it ..

still nice write up i will be transcribig it for myself to try to see how it fits with some other gear as well ..

thanks

the hate on buffs is based on reliability .. .

I have a cha skills item air guard so i have the min and a half haste ... but dont make enough plat per hour to warrent haste pots ... i would rather just get a caster or bard in my party ..

and anything that you cannot cast on yourself is not YOUR AC .. IMO

alot of people say they can GET there ac to ______

that is different then saying your ac is __________

not that you are saying that or not just a forum BS line i hear too much ...

my ac is 110 ...

but that is wrong its really something completly different and buffs out the ying yang and yugloth pots stacked with DDOstore pots and so on and so forth ...

self buffed ac ... at least this is honest when you say your ac is ____ cause its up to you to decide to keep the buffs maintained or not ..

Quikster
06-21-2010, 04:47 PM
alot of stuff there i could see as not easy ... DT armor itself in todays pugs is not easy ... but i understand ... most people by lvl 20 who try will get a DT armor even if they dont get best stuff on it ..

still nice write up i will be transcribig it for myself to try to see how it fits with some other gear as well ..

thanks

the hate on buffs is based on reliability .. .

I have a cha skills item air guard so i have the min and a half haste ... but dont make enough plat per hour to warrent haste pots ... i would rather just get a caster or bard in my party ..

and anything that you cannot cast on yourself is not YOUR AC .. IMO

alot of people say they can GET there ac to ______

that is different then saying your ac is __________

not that you are saying that or not just a forum BS line i hear too much ...

my ac is 110 ...

but that is wrong its really something completly different and buffs out the ying yang and yugloth pots stacked with DDOstore pots and so on and so forth ...

self buffed ac ... at least this is honest when you say your ac is ____ cause its up to you to decide to keep the buffs maintained or not ..

I dont disagree that buffs need to be specified etc when laying out a build. But to say you should not include buffs in your potential ac is inaccurate imo. I dont solo raids. I can say that there is at least 1 cleric in about any raid i do where i might need to buff my ac. More often then not there is either a ranger or paly as well. Quite often in raids im in theres a cleric, ranger, and bard. Rarely is there all including a paly and halfling, however, one of my guildies main is a dos III paly, another has a halfling bard that has HHC. So to say I never get those buffs would be wrong. I rarely see the 100+ ac that my potential is because it simply isnt needed 99% of the time, so i start dropping ac gear for dps gear. Its not uncommon for me to be at:

76 self buff twf
+1 ranger
+4 bard
+6 paly
________
87
-5 PA
-3 chattering ring
-2 stalwart set
________
78 with power attack on and the shintao set for +3 exceptional and +2/+2 This happens quite often in guild raids.

I was in a tod the other night with no bard, no ranger, well i kept my ac gear on and had a bit less dps, still tanked horoth with hate only however.

DT is not difficult to get whatsoever. 1 run through each of the quests out there and you have a set. Your talking about +3 tomes and the chattering ring, but think dt is tough to get????

Starting 11 or 12 int?

chaosguarde?

shroud weapon?

If these items are difficult for you to get, not only are you not up to the task of playing an end game tank, chances are my highly geared defender is out dps'ing you as well...

vyvy3369
06-21-2010, 06:32 PM
...
+4 to str +4 to con +3 to saves +6 to intimidate +7 ac +2 max dex bonus 6dr when wearing a shield

vs

+ 8 str, +1 crit range, +2 to hit, +4 damage, +8 to crits. +3 to intimi, bluff, concentration, and +2 action boosts.

I dont see it as being as unbalanced as everyone makes it out to be. For my money if the action boosts were equal, it would be pretty balanced. IMO you should have to give up dps to get ac and vice versa. I dont think the dps is as big a difference as people make it out to be. If we had fights in the game that lasted 30 + minutes it might make a difference, but as it is, most any boss fight is over within the 8 minutes of bard songs.
That right there is what I keep trying to tell people, and most people just don't seem to get it. SD DPS vs. Kensei DPS is admittedly lower, but it's not that much lower. You're still a Str-based Fighter, with plenty of Feats & enhancements for the useful DPS abilities, the only thing you're missing out on is the Kensei-specific bonuses. For me, it was ~10% more DPS to switch to Kensei, and it takes away significantly more than 10% of my survivability.

So yeah, you could probably raid buff a well-geared Kensei into the 100 ACs, but that same character as an SD is going to be capable of even higher defense at a slightly lower DPS, and IMO the trade-off is pretty even. The great part about being an SD over a Kensei is that you have a wider range of flexibility to switch things around to suit whatever situation you're in. While DPS-mode is almost always good enough, with a few clicks I can add 16+ sustainable AC as needed (+5 CE, +6 equip shield, +5 blocking). I'm sure there are Kensei around that do similar things, but at that point it's really just a personal preference.

As for one of my earlier points about not bothering with SD until you have pretty good gear, that was aimed at the fact that most poorly-geared SDs that I've seen walk around all the time with a shield on, and in most content that's just a waste (edit: I played such a Fighter for years, and it was painful trying to be useful in high-end content where you didn't really need a tank). IMO, until you have the ability to switch between a decent DPS mode and good defensive mode, you're better off just being a Kensei and grinding out the gear you need.

Zerkul
06-22-2010, 05:58 AM
Guys you missing the most important part... Being a Kensai gives you also +3 to DC of combat feats and power surge gives you another +4 for a total +7 to DCs of combat feats. I had kensai with 50+ DC on stunning blow and 40 on trip and sunder... i can tell you that in epic quests THAT makes a big difference between Kensai and SD.

William_the_Bat
06-22-2010, 06:31 AM
Defensive stance makes you slow.

That is the biggest drawback to SD or DoS.

Sure, it's great if you are standing still.. but how often do you really do that? Almost any fight you are moving around.. and in defensive stance you move sloooooow.

Really, the people most attracted to a defender line already know about the trade-off with a shield, most jut want to be nigh-invulnerable. And it doesn't help if you can't get back in the fight because you move too slow and are almost out of boosts.

Drfirewater79
06-22-2010, 09:13 AM
Guys you missing the most important part... Being a Kensai gives you also +3 to DC of combat feats and power surge gives you another +4 for a total +7 to DCs of combat feats. I had kensai with 50+ DC on stunning blow and 40 on trip and sunder... i can tell you that in epic quests THAT makes a big difference between Kensai and SD.

yeah the benifits of kensai far out weigh SD to me ....

I think the OP's point is that S&B over all is not as attractive as twf or thf .... and for a PRE that is geared to ward enhancing S&B style ... it needs to be that much better in order to make it worth it ..

i mean sure you can turtle up and intimidate mobs in a firewall or on the edge of blade barrier so they move back and forth through one edge and part doesnt have to run around trying to catch them ... but i do that on my twf kensai ...

for trash mobs intimidate doesnt need to be all that high even on epic and elite ..

named boss different story i guess ... but i never had issues outside of raids .. and only place i would use intimidate in a raid would be DQ and personally i find no reason to do desert epic at all ...

This will be a bigger issue i guess when gianthold comes out ... cause i could see intimidate being needed for keeping casters alive during some dragon fights on epic ...

vyvy3369
06-22-2010, 06:22 PM
Guys you missing the most important part... Being a Kensai gives you also +3 to DC of combat feats and power surge gives you another +4 for a total +7 to DCs of combat feats. I had kensai with 50+ DC on stunning blow and 40 on trip and sunder... i can tell you that in epic quests THAT makes a big difference between Kensai and SD.
I don't consider that important. If I really wanted to, I could routinely get DC45+ on stunning blow, but it's not even worth the Feat for me - epic trash is still just trash, and the important enemies are now immune to those effects. It was greay way back, when you could actually stun important enemies (I remember Tripping the Titan [with a candy cane even] and stunning Lailat), but trash doesn't last long enough to really make it worth it to me.

Edit: and again, it really just seems to be coming down to personal preference once you get good enough gear. It sounds like a lot of people want the higher damage and DCs over the extra defense, but that's the nice part about having options. If healing wasn't so easy to purchase, it might be a different story.

Emili
06-23-2010, 03:37 AM
I can disagree ... at lvl 10 my twf fighter had a ton of hps and decent ac

at the time lvl 10 cap was around i could hit easy 40 ac while dual weilding on a dwarf 28 point build ... before pre's

never had trouble with kill count and didnt die much at all (at the time he had 1 lvl ranger so he could even use heal wands)

and S&B was only popular amongst the try to get the highest ac in the game ... which while reported to be in the high 50' s I personally couldnt figure out how to get above 45 ... in todays game ... where many people know the power of UMD on melee classes and end game at lvl 20 ... its not impossible for a full fighter with no points added to CHA to use a full heal scroll with a umd 33.5 or better landing on a roll of 6 or better.

difference is in base ranks ...

at lvl 10 you only have 5.5 umd ranks ... even with the best items in the game at that level you wont hit high enough umd to make it on your own so its all about clickies for ac boosters like shield or the 10 second action boosts.

now that there are pre's if Defenders are gonna be the uber high ac but crud dps then the boost should increase that ....

maybe instead of str they should get +6 dex and +3 dex modifier to armor so they can get full advantage of the dex they recieve to ac ...

other wise .. .like i suggested more str more con and more ac in replace for movement reduction makes sense .... and having the ability to take rages and increase your usefulness should be ENCOURAGED ... if you want to make s&b attractive in todays game.
You do note... at that time Riot, myself and oother tanks were standing at low 60's raid buffed? 40 ac was meaningful but not so much so... and a fire giant champ had an AC of 41 and the blach guard ac in about 50... a fighter of 28 str to 30 was en-dgame high and many topped at 26 on average... and "to-hit" actually had a meaning in elite quests...

Emili
06-23-2010, 03:59 AM
pretty sure madstone clicky and proc stack ... and they stack with rage pot ..

its how my kensai breaks 50 str vs harry ...

every 2 points of str = 1 damage ...

i think I doubled my numbers by accident lol now that i look at it

think i ment 1+2+2 = 5

sorry lol

will edit

still 5 points of damage per swing is a lot of dps lost.


My sd is 2 pieces of gear from getting a 50 buffed str (2 difficult pieces, but 2 all the same :p ) 76 twf self buff ac is possible, and 80 intim. Defender dps is not that far behind for the bonuses it gets. It does take harder to get gear to make that ac really shine, but it shines nonetheless. I mean at 75 ac you can tank anything on normal, and thats easy for a defender to get.

And the point Quikster has is that running a defender at higher AC is easier then a kensai while twf. Kensai first off are only getting AC from items or feats... the PrE itself adds nothing to AC. This is Kensai below in DPS mode a defender is will be higher in AC.


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/bflat01/attack-1.jpg

Quikster
06-23-2010, 04:01 AM
Guys you missing the most important part... Being a Kensai gives you also +3 to DC of combat feats and power surge gives you another +4 for a total +7 to DCs of combat feats. I had kensai with 50+ DC on stunning blow and 40 on trip and sunder... i can tell you that in epic quests THAT makes a big difference between Kensai and SD.

Sorry not buying it. Can the dc be higher? Sure. Does it make that big of a difference in epic? Nope. My defender has lots of epic gear slotted. Ive completed plenty of epics with him. I know just how well both perform in epic content, and yeah the kensai can beat something down a little faster. Its not as big of a difference some people make it out to be.

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 08:49 AM
Sorry not buying it. Can the dc be higher? Sure. Does it make that big of a difference in epic? Nope. My defender has lots of epic gear slotted. Ive completed plenty of epics with him. I know just how well both perform in epic content, and yeah the kensai can beat something down a little faster. Its not as big of a difference some people make it out to be.

having a +3 dc to stun is gonna make a big deal in new epic ... weighted is only 3% now and dc 33 ...

so stunning fist and stunning blow with dc's of over 40 are gonna be way more powerful then just the weapons ...

its not to say that you cannot do epic as a defender ... really if you have a monk or another fighter with stunning blow ... or a caster doing all the work with firewall ... or a bard dancing everything ...

sure anyone can do epic on a melee really easy ...

difference is kensai kill things MUCH faster and the boost to DC's is huge in its own right ...

defenders are way underpowered in comparison ...

not saying defenders aren't fun ... i played as a defender until I got my hound sheild ... then i no longer needed to be the hound tank and dps was more effective especially in epic.

though personally still prefer to play my monk in epic.

Quikster
06-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Yes, and at the same time ac will be effective in epic.

Once again, maye if we had 40 min + encounters the dps difference would be meaningful, but we do most epics in 30 min or less (exceptions being wiz king, chains, atdq1) almost all raids cept elite tod in 30 min or less usually as well.

I'm in now way saying defnders are better, I'm sayig they are more balanced than you claim, and I believe I have refuted every point you have made about it now.

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 11:03 AM
Yes, and at the same time ac will be effective in epic.

Once again, maye if we had 40 min + encounters the dps difference would be meaningful, but we do most epics in 30 min or less (exceptions being wiz king, chains, atdq1) almost all raids cept elite tod in 30 min or less usually as well.

I'm in now way saying defnders are better, I'm sayig they are more balanced than you claim, and I believe I have refuted every point you have made about it now.

with the changes to epic ... ac might become relevant again yes ... i will give you that .. but still only for highest end of ac ...the 80+ crowd

also when you say most epics take 30 mins .... and most raids take 30mins ... or less

your talking guild groups with top end gear ...

again its not really every day parties ..

your GOOD pug ... often takes 35-40 mins in shroud ... often takes 35+ mins for TOD
i have seen pugs take 40+ mins in gen point on normal let alone hard and elite .. .while i can two man on hard in 39 mins with two monks and no casters or healers (did it with two dark monks and only one of us with high umd for heal scrolls)

....

even in a guild group ... best way to figure it out is take a full group of defender builds all with 80+ buffed ac ...

see how long it takes to do a shroud ...

if you have one defender in a group .. .only one s&b in a group ... then its not that big a deal .. but if more then half your party are defenders ... your gonna see late two round or even as long as a four round part 4 ....

and in TOD ... your likely to wipe if you dont have enough dps in part 2

epic dragon von 6 can take forever if you dont have the high dps output ...

if they want S&B to be popular it needs a feat line that allows it to compete with twf and thf .... and for defenders to be popular .... ac has to be just as relevant as high dps .. in this game ... it no longer is .... and that is why you see less defender builds then kensai ...

killing mobs faster is more important to overall success then survivability ... mainly cause most raid bosses especially are stand still or box in and beat down ...

some aren't intimidate able and others require such a high intimidate its easier to control with hate which is generated by high dps ...

dps is a better intimidate function in todays raids then the actual skill ..

maybe what needs to be done is similar to what they have done to other classes .. like rouge ...

lower the dc/saves/to hit of all mobs including raid bosses and then high ac will mean something more ... you wont have to waste as much stat points to get useable intimidate and this means adding more stats to add to dps rather then gimp your dps and to hit to be effective ...

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 11:34 AM
with the changes to epic ... ac might become relevant again yes ... i will give you that .. but still only for highest end of ac ...the 80+ crowd

also when you say most epics take 30 mins .... and most raids take 30mins ... or less

your talking guild groups with top end gear ...

again its not really every day parties ..

your GOOD pug ... often takes 35-40 mins in shroud ... often takes 35+ mins for TOD
i have seen pugs take 40+ mins in gen point on normal let alone hard and elite .. .while i can two man on hard in 39 mins with two monks and no casters or healers (did it with two dark monks and only one of us with high umd for heal scrolls)

....

even in a guild group ... best way to figure it out is take a full group of defender builds all with 80+ buffed ac ...

see how long it takes to do a shroud ...

if you have one defender in a group .. .only one s&b in a group ... then its not that big a deal .. but if more then half your party are defenders ... your gonna see late two round or even as long as a four round part 4 ....

and in TOD ... your likely to wipe if you dont have enough dps in part 2

epic dragon von 6 can take forever if you dont have the high dps output ...

if they want S&B to be popular it needs a feat line that allows it to compete with twf and thf .... and for defenders to be popular .... ac has to be just as relevant as high dps .. in this game ... it no longer is .... and that is why you see less defender builds then kensai ...

killing mobs faster is more important to overall success then survivability ... mainly cause most raid bosses especially are stand still or box in and beat down ...

some aren't intimidate able and others require such a high intimidate its easier to control with hate which is generated by high dps ...

dps is a better intimidate function in todays raids then the actual skill ..

maybe what needs to be done is similar to what they have done to other classes .. like rouge ...

lower the dc/saves/to hit of all mobs including raid bosses and then high ac will mean something more ... you wont have to waste as much stat points to get useable intimidate and this means adding more stats to add to dps rather then gimp your dps and to hit to be effective ...

but who said that defenders are s&b ? the 4 or so defenders that i group with that can handle epic dq are all twf dps hate tanks and rarely use there shield and yes they swap gear around for either dps or ac id say 90% of the time if not more there in dps mode imho and when im in this mode for example von 6 epic i wait till i get double madstone proc then jump into stance for the extra str and con and i can easily get back behind the rock in time to escape the fire breath

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 12:34 PM
but who said that defenders are s&b ? the 4 or so defenders that i group with that can handle epic dq are all twf dps hate tanks and rarely use there shield and yes they swap gear around for either dps or ac id say 90% of the time if not more there in dps mode imho and when im in this mode for example von 6 epic i wait till i get double madstone proc then jump into stance for the extra str and con and i can easily get back behind the rock in time to escape the fire breath

just cause some dont s&b doesnt mean the pre wasnt made for S&B

as a defender you get bigger bonuses when in S&B ... the entire pre is built around that concept ... it requires shield feats and enhancements ... it grants bonus when wearing a shield.

if your going for dps why be defender at all ?

especially in von 6 where you have to jump out of combat fast ?

so in von6

you proc madstoned turn on defender ..

after 12 seconds you turn off defender run back around the protection then run back into combat and turn on defender again?

all that time you waste turning on and off your defender is more dps you LOSE!!!

as a kensai ... i powerboost rage and let madstone do its work ... increase crit range and damage output and still have decent ac not that it matters against an epic raid boss ...

i dont have to stop to powerup i can do it on the fly ... i dont have reduced movement so i dont have to worry about how fast i run when she is about to blow ..

if your spending 90% of your time in dps mode then you should be kensai other wise you really are not hitting your potential at all ...

makes no sense to me .. .

if you S&B or ac tank intimidate constantly and dont care about dps ... then defender is a valid choice cause even at less dps if its not your focus then intimitanks are useful ...

if dps is your focus why the hell would you be a defender?

doesn't even make sense ....

PopeJual
06-23-2010, 12:43 PM
These 4 fighters increase party DPS by (a) allowing squishy DPSers and non-twitchy players to attack Lailat from behind without fear of dying and (b) allow the healer(s) to conserve resources by concentrating on a single target. The fastest, smoothest Epic DQs I have been in have been intimitanked by 1 of these 4 characters.

I'd like to see this in ADQ2 more often (although only from someone who can stand up to Lailat without falling over dead). I am still learning techniques for the raid, but I'll admit that my Cone of Cold does more damage to Lailat than my Polar Ray - just because my Cone of Cold is a lot more likely to hit her.

A real, live tank in that quest would mean that I can actually hit her with all the spells that I want to throw.

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 12:47 PM
just cause some dont s&b doesnt mean the pre wasnt made for S&B

as a defender you get bigger bonuses when in S&B ... the entire pre is built around that concept ... it requires shield feats and enhancements ... it grants bonus when wearing a shield.

if your going for dps why be defender at all ?

especially in von 6 where you have to jump out of combat fast ?

so in von6

you proc madstoned turn on defender ..

after 12 seconds you turn off defender run back around the protection then run back into combat and turn on defender again?

all that time you waste turning on and off your defender is more dps you LOSE!!!

as a kensai ... i powerboost rage and let madstone do its work ... increase crit range and damage output and still have decent ac not that it matters against an epic raid boss ...

i dont have to stop to powerup i can do it on the fly ... i dont have reduced movement so i dont have to worry about how fast i run when she is about to blow ..

if your spending 90% of your time in dps mode then you should be kensai other wise you really are not hitting your potential at all ...

makes no sense to me .. .

if you S&B or ac tank intimidate constantly and dont care about dps ... then defender is a valid choice cause even at less dps if its not your focus then intimitanks are useful ...

if dps is your focus why the hell would you be a defender?

doesn't even make sense ....

well first off i dont jump out of stance and jump back in it stays on and he has plenty of time to get back just like everyone else he has defender because thats his build and ive taken steps to make his dps the best it can be , im not saying its the best dps out there im saying its the best it can do which honestly isnt to far behind your precious kensai and it has awesome survivability .......why not concentrate on his dps ? even if i make a trap monkey that his sole purpose is to be able to open or disable ever trap in the game id still make his dps the best it could be with the build he was intended to be , obviously u dont understand this point and with your other posts I see u look down a narrow highway , and i will be done debating with u

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 12:49 PM
I'd like to see this in ADQ2 more often (although only from someone who can stand up to Lailat without falling over dead). I am still learning techniques for the raid, but I'll admit that my Cone of Cold does more damage to Lailat than my Polar Ray - just because my Cone of Cold is a lot more likely to hit her.

A real, live tank in that quest would mean that I can actually hit her with all the spells that I want to throw.


Thats the point of the them to let the squishier melee / arcanes to go all out on her without worrying about her coming after u or hitting u ;)

cdemeritt
06-23-2010, 02:06 PM
OK....
1: Defender is to S&B as Ranger is to Bow&Arrow... The good ones will use it when the time is correct, the bad ones use it all the time.

2: just for giggles, I switched my enhancements from Stalwarts to Kensai just to try it out... I don't see myself keeping it for long, as already I'm not impressed.

3: Intim'ing Arretrekos is silly, Intiming Arretrekos while S&B foolish, 4 people intiming Arretrekos while S&B, well that's just sad. Put away the shield, and start swinging you "Insert Weapon(S) of choice"....

4: Defenders have a lower DPS output than that of a Kensai, there is no denying that. But a well built, played one is hardly noticeable. A S&B Defender has way lower DPS... but should have built in a Higher DPS "mode"....

5: If you want Max DPS, Why play Kensai... A Fully raged Barbarian with an Epic SoS does way more DPS than even a Kensai... Wouldn't this be a better choice for you?

6: Not everyone is looking for top DPS all the time... My Defender tanks well, and does decent enough DPS.

7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....

8: The slowdown in movement speed is not something I like, but it isn't the end all to me, as I use the stances when needed, not all the time.

9: Someone mentioned something about Defenders in Pugs... PuG's Both Raids and Quests are where my Defenders Shine... Often taking little damage, yet doing more DPS that the Badly built PuG Barbarian... As someone who plays clerics quite a bit, I'm very mindful of Damage taken and resources used.... I offer The clerics supplies, and they often turn them down, one even said to me, "I didn't need to put a lot into you, the Barb on the other hand..."

10: I just prefer the playstyle of the Defenders over Kensai or Barbarians... I have 2 defenders, and deleted my Barbarian at level 6. If you don't like Defenders, Don't play them... I don't like Barbarians or monks so I don't play them.

11: Even with the pathetic DPS of my Sibery's Defender, he is often the last one standing, and this includes the bad guys... it might take a bit longer, but he gets there...

12: Even The best Barbarians and Kensai are only about as good as the Cleric standing behind them...

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 02:16 PM
OK....
1: Defender is to S&B as Ranger is to Bow&Arrow... The good ones will use it when the time is correct, the bad ones use it all the time.

2: just for giggles, I switched my enhancements from Stalwarts to Kensai just to try it out... I don't see myself keeping it for long, as already I'm not impressed.

3: Intim'ing Arretrekos is silly, Intiming Arretrekos while S&B foolish, 4 people intiming Arretrekos while S&B, well that's just sad. Put away the shield, and start swinging you "Insert Weapon(S) of choice"....

4: Defenders have a lower DPS output than that of a Kensai, there is no denying that. But a well built, played one is hardly noticeable. A S&B Defender has way lower DPS... but should have built in a Higher DPS "mode"....

5: If you want Max DPS, Why play Kensai... A Fully raged Barbarian with an Epic SoS does way more DPS than even a Kensai... Wouldn't this be a better choice for you?

6: Not everyone is looking for top DPS all the time... My Defender tanks well, and does decent enough DPS.

7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....

8: The slowdown in movement speed is not something I like, but it isn't the end all to me, as I use the stances when needed, not all the time.

9: Someone mentioned something about Defenders in Pugs... PuG's Both Raids and Quests are where my Defenders Shine... Often taking little damage, yet doing more DPS that the Badly built PuG Barbarian... As someone who plays clerics quite a bit, I'm very mindful of Damage taken and resources used.... I offer The clerics supplies, and they often turn them down, one even said to me, "I didn't need to put a lot into you, the Barb on the other hand..."

10: I just prefer the playstyle of the Defenders over Kensai or Barbarians... I have 2 defenders, and deleted my Barbarian at level 6. If you don't like Defenders, Don't play them... I don't like Barbarians or monks so I don't play them.

11: Even with the pathetic DPS of my Sibery's Defender, he is often the last one standing, and this includes the bad guys... it might take a bit longer, but he gets there...

12: Even The best Barbarians and Kensai are only about as good as the Cleric standing behind them...

pretty much agree with everthing u said , the only one i dont agree with is the one in red , a defender can and should be able to do either .... shield and intimidate or dps him with his hate generation and have a good enough ac to not get cursed or to where the curses dont mean to much ;) imho .... otherwise a great post

cdemeritt
06-23-2010, 02:22 PM
pretty much agree with everthing u said , the only one i dont agree with is the one in red , a defender can and should be able to do either .... shield and intimidate or dps him with his hate generation and have a good enough ac to not get cursed or to where the curses dont mean to much ;) imho .... otherwise a great post

Note: I said often... Not always... But many fleshie intim-tanks use the shield just because... But if they truly hate tanked with the intim at the same time, it would be better still...

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 03:25 PM
well first off i dont jump out of stance and jump back in it stays on and he has plenty of time to get back just like everyone else he has defender because thats his build and ive taken steps to make his dps the best it can be , im not saying its the best dps out there im saying its the best it can do which honestly isnt to far behind your precious kensai and it has awesome survivability .......why not concentrate on his dps ? even if i make a trap monkey that his sole purpose is to be able to open or disable ever trap in the game id still make his dps the best it could be with the build he was intended to be , obviously u dont understand this point and with your other posts I see u look down a narrow highway , and i will be done debating with u

debating ... you havent even explained yourself in way that makes any sense at all ...

its 7 ac differnce and some of that only applies when you wear a shield

my kensai dwarven fighter who was stalwart defender for 5 months while i hunted down my hound shield .... is a TWF

i have great AC and top of the line DPS ...

when i was a SD i TWF mainly but the loss of speed was a big deal constantly turning it off so i could keep up with the party ...

I am not saying your an idiot for taking SD ... I am saying its not optimal ...

agian if your a high ac toon and your reaching that 80-110 range of ac then that is awesome ...

good for you ...

but i am saying that kensai will only be point behind you in ac and will have a good chunk more dps

7 ac or additional 5% crits additional +4 to hit and damage + rage boost which adds more damage and hps ...

that is my point ...

the benifits are not even ...

especially not at end game where currently ac means very little in comparison to high dps.

dont get angry about it dude take it easy ...

i want to be convinced that defenders are worth it ... i still have a defender which i am trying very hard not to switch back to kensai ... because AC means so little .... and DPS means so much at end game ...

usually healing is so good that dps means more then ac cause generally clerics arent having that much trouble cept in high lag situations

even in pugs i dont see many dieing in raids unless dps lag is so high that even spaming doesn't help.

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 03:59 PM
explain what ?

its not 7 ac while only wearing shield fyi so u might want to look at it again.... and i dont use the stance all the time so im usually not turning it on and off all the time so its not a bother.... and im not saying that kensai might be ahead but if it is its not by much but maybe u just havent seen there potenial .... this is imho dont really care if anyone else agrees with me or not and as for me deciding between the two i tank ~ hate/intimitank whatever u want to call it for my guild all the time and this build is more viable then a squishy fighter who gets a few more damage then me and is a burden to a cleric that might have to use resources ;) is that better ?

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Note: I said often... Not always... But many fleshie intim-tanks use the shield just because... But if they truly hate tanked with the intim at the same time, it would be better still...

yep doing both is fine , honestly id rather see that then just standing there with a shield but both have there time and as u get use to playing your role u will know when to do it and when not to

but i must say one of my biggest pet peeves i've seen recently is intimitanks as they call themselves standing in part 4 intimidating with a shield and not swinging lol i mean seriously why ? u can swing and intimidate .... this way your contributing even if your in ac/imtimidating mode ;)

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 04:03 PM
OK....
1: Defender is to S&B as Ranger is to Bow&Arrow... The good ones will use it when the time is correct, the bad ones use it all the time.
as someone who has a ranged ranger i can tell you that isnt always the case ... slaying arrows make a big deal of dps difference and while many shot is slow to recharge and dps is worse then in todays game tempest ... in U5 the dps ratio is much closer and with them reducing mob hps ... 500+ crits are effectively vorpal strikes

2: just for giggles, I switched my enhancements from Stalwarts to Kensai just to try it out... I don't see myself keeping it for long, as already I'm not impressed.

funny i ended up with the opposite opinion on my twf but i like SD on my THF ... for me to switch to S&B from THF because of rate of attack made more sense ...


3: Intim'ing Arretrekos is silly, Intiming Arretrekos while S&B foolish, 4 people intiming Arretrekos while S&B, well that's just sad. Put away the shield, and start swinging you "Insert Weapon(S) of choice"....

Even as a kensai i intimidate arretrekos in shroud .... i dont use a shield cause no point dps is what kills him and i like 1 rounders ... especially with todays lag issues .... the reason for intimidating him is so that eveyrone else gets sneak attack damage and its easier for clerics to focus on one target who is taking all the damage then 10 targets ...

4: Defenders have a lower DPS output than that of a Kensai, there is no denying that. But a well built, played one is hardly noticeable. A S&B Defender has way lower DPS... but should have built in a Higher DPS "mode"....

hardly noticeable? i hit over 220 on some crits with my kensai .. highest i ever hit as a stalwart was 180 ... and i hit more crits cause of the increased crit range .. then when you factor in khopeshes .... its drastically larger ... you just havent tested it out in comparison.

5: If you want Max DPS, Why play Kensai... A Fully raged Barbarian with an Epic SoS does way more DPS than even a Kensai... Wouldn't this be a better choice for you?

I hate barbs they are so one sided what makes a kensai cool i si can have uber dps comparable to a barb and still hold ac and DC's for stuns and other such coolness ..... barbs get dr which is nice but when your talking epic sos kensai does WAY more damage then a barb ... extended crit range extra damage boost on crits ... barbs only benifit is barb powerattack which adds 10 points of damage rather then the 5 points a fighter gets ... the dps difference between a good fighter built for dps and a barb is minimal ....and if your twf its even more obvious why take a fighter the shear amount of feats alone is a huge advantage. I dont know many full barbs who are hitting 33 umd with a base cha of 6 but i got two fighters that can

6: Not everyone is looking for top DPS all the time... My Defender tanks well, and does decent enough DPS.

this is true ... but its also about why you do what you do ... i fyou like to turtle up and defend ... defenders are great .. best intimitanks in the game by far .... wont get an arguement there ... but how often is that as useful as someone who does massive damage?

I am not saying defenders suck ... i am saying the pre needs more added to it to balance it out with Kensai ... kensai is the most powerful fighter bar none ... while defenders are the most defensive fighters bar none ... they are outdone ac wise by rangers often .. .they are way way way way outdone for ac and intimidate by palidans ... so why be a fighter defender when you could be a palidan have higher ac higher saves higher umd ... the list goes on ... lay on hands spell points buffs and healing ... i mean really ...

its the same as your fighter vs barb thing ... fighters get more feats .. but in defenders case they actually get less bonuses compared to a similar built palidan because of palidans class bonuses.


7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....

i have never seen an intimidate only tank on big H .... cause it wouldnt work ... same goes for sully ... if you intimidate her and shield block you have to be doing nothing but ... cause the first time you forget to hit intimi right as your clicky resets ... bam someone takes a serious hit or maybe even pulls sully out of your intimidate range ...

personally i would rather warforged on sully and heavy dps or high ac on Horrath ... and intimidate doesnt help in there at all ...


8: The slowdown in movement speed is not something I like, but it isn't the end all to me, as I use the stances when needed, not all the time.

this is true for me too ... .i only use SD stance when i have to ... but again if they removed it from the pre it would go along way to making it more useful .. .then it would be a static ..... and then it would be a better comparison with kensai ... kensai limited use but double the bonus .... and defender unlimited but smaller bonus ... this way kensai still way more powerful and alot of kensai know how to make there surge last a whole mission anyway ... and defenders would get a nice benifit of having it as a perma stance like monks ....

it just adds a bit of flavor .. .the movement speed issue causes many to turn the stance off and how often do you forget to turn it back on ... ... be honest ... if it could stay on like other stances and not effect your movement then it would be 10 times better then current ...

9: Someone mentioned something about Defenders in Pugs... PuG's Both Raids and Quests are where my Defenders Shine... Often taking little damage, yet doing more DPS that the Badly built PuG Barbarian... As someone who plays clerics quite a bit, I'm very mindful of Damage taken and resources used.... I offer The clerics supplies, and they often turn them down, one even said to me, "I didn't need to put a lot into you, the Barb on the other hand..."

ok this i dont get ... pugs or guild runs is the same thing .. only difference is there are less noobs ... i solo alot so i notice MY health quite a bit .. .a cleric (or at least when i play mine) notices when someone dies or when someone sucks so bad that they take massive damage but generally in raids its mass heals and you cant tell anything ... especially with lag when your spaming and not even looking at who is going down faster ... you just see someone showing more then half red so heal again ... and if they dont get it then they where in the wrong place....

barbs vs fighters is a whole other topic ... fighters even non uber ac fighters will still have more then double the ac of a barb ... and barbs rely way to heavy on DR and HPS thinking its enough to save there rumps but its not ... makes them harder to heal and they are often reckless ... comparing barbs and fighters is like comparing asian pears to apples ... they look like same thing but the taste is completely different

10: I just prefer the playstyle of the Defenders over Kensai or Barbarians... I have 2 defenders, and deleted my Barbarian at level 6. If you don't like Defenders, Don't play them... I don't like Barbarians or monks so I don't play them.

That is fine and that makes alot of sense ... i like ac builds too ... and i hate my barb he is still lvl 12 cause i just cannot bring myself to play him ... barb suck to level ....

when i played my main as a defender i loved hitting nice high ac laughing as orthons tried to hit me ... but as a kensai i found that they still dont hit me much ... really the only time i really noticed the ac difference was in elite raids .... and i cannot intimidate on elite anymore but didnt have too hard a time on elite as a defender ....

i love my monk however ... ac build dex wis with decent con and just enough str not to be weighted down 10 int (which is now 13 with tome for CE) can solo anything ... umd full heal scrolls over 400 hps .... give monk a chance again ... thing that makes it tough for a monk is they really suck for first 12 levels but then you start to understand combo system ... but really i like dark monks at end game cause with umd you no longer have to rely on light fist crud heal.


11: Even with the pathetic DPS of my Sibery's Defender, he is often the last one standing, and this includes the bad guys... it might take a bit longer, but he gets there...

this is the way i feel about my monk ... cept it doesnt take any longer for me to kill everything and res the party ... though the one party i was in on sins where i had to rez ful party after every fight was a bit much .. .could have solod it on hard in 28 mins instead took 5 pugs with me and it took 48 mins and i still had to kill everything ... this is why i hate barbs lol :)

12: Even The best Barbarians and Kensai are only about as good as the Cleric standing behind them...

I disagree ... well at least with the kensai part ...

as i said my kensai still has great ac ... if i want to wear a shield he has even better ac ... the faster i kill the mob the less damage he can do to me and i have enough feats since i dont have to take feats i normally wouldnt to boost umd ... so i can heal myself pretty effectively in many situations ... especially once i get a GH ...


in the end if its all about style of play then yeah defender and kensai is based on how you like to play

but when you put balanced in the mix its a different story

kensai get way more for less feats then SD

SD could use a boost to make it better and more attractive ... especially since they are trying to make S&B more attractive ... right now

not saying SD is S&B only but that SD is more attractive to S&B fighters over other options ... thing is S&B fighting isnt that attractive ... if you gave a bigger boost to ac

10 instead of 7

then added something like additional +2 to hit and damage if wielding a shield

remove the slowed movement and increased DR

then the class would be attractive to everyone ... not just the few people who prefer not to hit things as hard as they can :P

Drfirewater79
06-23-2010, 04:09 PM
explain what ?

its not 7 ac while only wearing shield fyi so u might want to look at it again.... and i dont use the stance all the time so im usually not turning it on and off all the time so its not a bother.... and im not saying that kensai might be ahead but if it is its not by much but maybe u just havent seen there potenial .... this is imho dont really care if anyone else agrees with me or not and as for me deciding between the two i tank ~ hate/intimitank whatever u want to call it for my guild all the time and this build is more viable then a squishy fighter who gets a few more damage then me and is a burden to a cleric that might have to use resources ;) is that better ?

that is what i dont understand when you say it ...

my fighter intimitanks all the time hound vod for trash ... i dont die easy and i output highest possible dps ..

again to each his own ... but i dont understand why you think kensai is more of a burden on the cleric ...

the stalwart stance while holding a shield is not much higher then a kensai holding a shield ... someone had said recently it was +7 ...

i am just using that number since it was in his write up ... and i dont want to hit the wiki at work ...

7 ac doesnt make me squishy ... in battle i usually sit at around 40-50 str based on rages and over 620 hps. far from squishy ...

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 07:30 PM
that is what i dont understand when you say it ...

my fighter intimitanks all the time hound vod for trash ... i dont die easy and i output highest possible dps ..

again to each his own ... but i dont understand why you think kensai is more of a burden on the cleric ...

the stalwart stance while holding a shield is not much higher then a kensai holding a shield ... someone had said recently it was +7 ...

i am just using that number since it was in his write up ... and i dont want to hit the wiki at work ...

7 ac doesnt make me squishy ... in battle i usually sit at around 40-50 str based on rages and over 620 hps. far from squishy ...

ok sorry squishy meaning ac and 7 points can mean alot depending where u stand so yes its important and your saying highest possible dps for your build ? or highest possible dps build there is ? big difference ... cuz if what your saying then there is me and others who have defenders who dont use shields ( please forget the shield cuz i dont use it that often if at all only two raids thats it ) and put out the highest possible dps for our build then we are doing the highest possible dps are build can do , we never said it was the highest possible dps in the game , the only thing we said is that we werent to far behind the kensai imho and as others have posted here as well the same thing.... as for intimidating can u hit a 79 intim ? if not another point goes towards the defender not saying u cant get it on your kensai but the defender helps more towards that goal as well ... we could go back and forth about this and honestly it doesnt matter we both have different ideas moving on.

all in all bud all that really matters is u have fun with your build and u make a difference in a party and contribute if u do that then your good in my book ...if not then i dont know what to tell ya

SEMPER
06-23-2010, 07:57 PM
ok i dont feel like quoting u but u said it / how does a paly have a higher intimidate then a fighter ? i dont know of any and i mean ANY ..... I would love to see this so called paly build who can reach it as easily compared to a fighter

please post this build or how u think this is going to happen not saying its not possible but id like to see it

Quikster
06-24-2010, 11:35 AM
ok i dont feel like quoting u but u said it / how does a paly have a higher intimidate then a fighter ? i dont know of any and i mean ANY ..... I would love to see this so called paly build who can reach it as easily compared to a fighter

please post this build or how u think this is going to happen not saying its not possible but id like to see it

Thats because they dont without being totally gimp'd in dps. But as the post count adds up, I see he understands less and less of real game mechanics.


Look I dont deny that kensai does more damage. But its not as much as you think.

Pug shrouds, Ive done em in less than 24 minutes. Did one last night in 28. Thats not 28 minutes swinging either.

You quote genesis point? For christs sake, more time spent running around in there then fighting.

If we had 30+ minute encounters it might be more of an issue. But I have yet to see one.

You say it will take 4 rounds in shroud with a party full of defenders? Try again. At 16 we two rounded him with dreamspitters, and it took a whooping 7 rounds with all silver flame clubs at lvl 16.

74 ac yielded unhittable results for epic trash in von 1 not 80+

Ive done epic von 6 with as few as 4 melee on her, didnt take forever.

Spending 90% of your time in dps mode means thats what 90% of the content he plays needs. This isnt anything new. Ive already stated that the discussion about when a tank is needed vs kensai vs defender are separate ones.


The ac difference is +3 sd, +4 stance, +2 mdb.

Honestly i think if the hate portion of the stances worked properly and defenders got a + to haste boosts as kensai does, the pres would be fairly balanced.

9 ac is huge, as I pointed out to you before. Thats the reason my defender can top 100 with the right buffs.

I dont think that the mobs need to be nerfed, I think they need to be beefed up. Up their damage big time imo.


Lol 40-50 str and 620 hps? And you are so much more uber than my defender which sits at about 44 str, 700+ hp, and 80+ ac.

Quikster
06-24-2010, 11:37 AM
One other thing, barbs get more than +5 to pa over twf kensai :)

vyvy3369
06-24-2010, 02:24 PM
The ac difference is +3 sd, +4 stance, +2 mdb.
Don't forget about the ToD set bonus +2.

Drfirewater79
06-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Thats because they dont without being totally gimp'd in dps. But as the post count adds up, I see he understands less and less of real game mechanics.

......

Lol 40-50 str and 620 hps? And you are so much more uber than my defender which sits at about 44 str, 700+ hp, and 80+ ac.

i base my opinion on my personal experience .. the dps is drastically different .. its the reason i took my twf back to kensai ..

crit boost alone means i am not only doing more damage on a crit but crit more often ...

I never said defenders suck ...

not once

what i said is the movement speed and lower dps doesnt stack up in end game compared to kensai ..

i would love to see your stats and enhancement choices if you break 700 hps you get 44 str and 80 + ac

let me guess your intimidate is 80 too right?

want balls to the wall sure ...

here are myDDO.com stats

and lets puts some balls on the table

reincarnate x1

34 str (only +3 tomes since reincarnate)

26 dex

20 con

10 int (just waiting on +3 int tome)

8 wis

16 cha (base 8 with only +2 tome)

.............

no shroud hp item

no shroud or tod exceptional str item

so stat point gear aside show me how your uberness stacks up

alot of smack talk but no freaking proof anywhere ...

like i said when the ac stats are thrown in my face earlier ...

if i am going off of your equiptment i prolly have just as much if not more ...

i sacrificed some con so i could get ac sacrificed two points to get int to 10

max str always adding to str



i could get my stuff up alot more if i wanted to jerk ... only reason i dont have hp item and exceptional is cause i have been working on my monk and this guy already has too many items as is ..

dual wield lighting II's

immunity bracers

cha skills boots

that is alot of items .. still need tod ring but i have three crafted on my monk who needs them more

so this guy has to wait for the extra +3 str

so dont go spouting bs freaking numbers that dont mean **** ...

if your not wearing 100% the same gear as me your stats dont prove anything

i can get high 70's ac that i know of ...

but when matched up to buddies numbers earlier my high end potential is over 80 by far ... would have been 97 if SD with his number chart ..

when i say 40-50 is because i spend 90% of my time at 40 and have seen as high as 52 with everything i have proc'ing including my str necklace ...

but add up some exceptional and some other key items and i could even have more ..

when one is placed against the other you get more benifit out of kensai ...

defenders could use a boost to make them more attractive

i dont know what you guys are arguing about ...

never said your builds are **** .. .though your attitude sure as hell is ...


**edit*** just realized your the same guy ... so really you should already know this by now ... wow why are you even drawing it out .... dont know why either of you are against making defender builds more attractive ...

Quikster
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
Don't forget about the ToD set bonus +2.

Oh yes so really we are talking 11 eh?

Quikster
06-24-2010, 05:26 PM
i base my opinion on my personal experience .. the dps is drastically different .. its the reason i took my twf back to kensai ..

crit boost alone means i am not only doing more damage on a crit but crit more often ...

I never said defenders suck ...

not once

what i said is the movement speed and lower dps doesnt stack up in end game compared to kensai ..

i would love to see your stats and enhancement choices if you break 700 hps you get 44 str and 80 + ac

let me guess your intimidate is 80 too right?

want balls to the wall sure ...

here are myDDO.com stats

and lets puts some balls on the table

reincarnate x1

34 str (only +3 tomes since reincarnate)

26 dex

20 con

10 int (just waiting on +3 int tome)

8 wis

16 cha (base 8 with only +2 tome)

.............

no shroud hp item

no shroud or tod exceptional str item

so stat point gear aside show me how your uberness stacks up

alot of smack talk but no freaking proof anywhere ...

like i said when the ac stats are thrown in my face earlier ...

if i am going off of your equiptment i prolly have just as much if not more ...

i sacrificed some con so i could get ac sacrificed two points to get int to 10

max str always adding to str



i could get my stuff up alot more if i wanted to jerk ... only reason i dont have hp item and exceptional is cause i have been working on my monk and this guy already has too many items as is ..

dual wield lighting II's

immunity bracers

cha skills boots

that is alot of items .. still need tod ring but i have three crafted on my monk who needs them more

so this guy has to wait for the extra +3 str

so dont go spouting bs freaking numbers that dont mean **** ...

if your not wearing 100% the same gear as me your stats dont prove anything

i can get high 70's ac that i know of ...

but when matched up to buddies numbers earlier my high end potential is over 80 by far ... would have been 97 if SD with his number chart ..

when i say 40-50 is because i spend 90% of my time at 40 and have seen as high as 52 with everything i have proc'ing including my str necklace ...

but add up some exceptional and some other key items and i could even have more ..

when one is placed against the other you get more benifit out of kensai ...

defenders could use a boost to make them more attractive

i dont know what you guys are arguing about ...

never said your builds are **** .. .though your attitude sure as hell is ...


**edit*** just realized your the same guy ... so really you should already know this by now ... wow why are you even drawing it out .... dont know why either of you are against making defender builds more attractive ...

Sure if you are looking to be the highest dps fighter you can, you get more dps out of kensai, if you are looking to get decent dps and high ac, you get more benefits out of defender. Same with the paly pre's.

You dont want to make this about personal builds, that really throws the whole discussion out the window, lets stick to the numbers between the two pres.

I dont want much added to the defender pre because it would be too overpowered. If they fixed defender hate stances, and maybe added action boosts to the pre as kensai has, it would be very close to balanced. You start adding more ac to the pre which already can add up to 11 more ac with gear, and you are making it unbalanced with other classes that would like to achieve decent ac.

As far as the knowledge of game mechanics go, im not meaning to be insulting, but I am going to call a spade a spade. You seem to be making lots of claims of things you dont know about. So hence my comment. If thats not the case, maybe you could enlighten me, but based upon your posts thats the conclusion I draw, and I believe it to be fair.

SEMPER
06-24-2010, 06:33 PM
when i say 40-50 is because i spend 90% of my time at 40 and have seen as high as 52 with everything i have proc'ing including my str necklace ...

i pretty sure your talking about the choker in this quote ? if so if your basing your #'s and dps on this then your worse off then my defender i mean i still swing faster but move slower while u move faster and swing slower .... not saying to not use it but never have been a big fan of the choker the reward doesnt overcome the negative from the fatigue u get when it runs out imho but hey its your build so please keep using it

emptysands
06-24-2010, 07:31 PM
i could get my stuff up alot more if i wanted to jerk ... only reason i dont have hp item and exceptional is cause i have been working on my monk and this guy already has too many items as is ..



Nice ad hominem self contradiction.

cdemeritt
06-26-2010, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by cdemeritt View Post
OK....
1: Defender is to S&B as Ranger is to Bow&Arrow... The good ones will use it when the time is correct, the bad ones use it all the time.


as someone who has a ranged ranger i can tell you that isnt always the case ... slaying arrows make a big deal of dps difference and while many shot is slow to recharge and dps is worse then in todays game tempest ... in U5 the dps ratio is much closer and with them reducing mob hps ... 500+ crits are effectively vorpal strikes

So you are saying you use your bow 100% of the time vs 100% of your enemies, can kill all your enemies yourself with said bow etc. What did you do before you got slay living arrows?

2: just for giggles, I switched my enhancements from Stalwarts to Kensai just to try it out... I don't see myself keeping it for long, as already I'm not impressed.

funny i ended up with the opposite opinion on my twf but i like SD on my THF ... for me to switch to S&B from THF because of rate of attack made more sense ...

really, since my fighter had more than enough feats for crit acc, TWF line ans Weapons specialization, he really didn't gain all that much when he switched to kensai... yes some, but not all that over the top that you and other seem to think.



3: Intim'ing Arretrekos is silly, Intiming Arretrekos while S&B foolish, 4 people intiming Arretrekos while S&B, well that's just sad. Put away the shield, and start swinging you "Insert Weapon(S) of choice"....


Even as a kensai i intimidate arretrekos in shroud .... i dont use a shield cause no point dps is what kills him and i like 1 rounders ... especially with todays lag issues .... the reason for intimidating him is so that eveyrone else gets sneak attack damage and its easier for clerics to focus on one target who is taking all the damage then 10 targets ...

Are you kidding me? What utter non-sense. There is 0 reason to intimidate Arretrekos in the shroud... Sorry, you are kidding yourself if you think it makes one bit of difference if the cleric is over lvl 16.
1: most clerics will pick one person, and use mass cures on that person... regaurdless if some tank is intiming or not. A well buffed clerics Mass Cure Moderate Wound spell hits for more that a heal scroll, on everyone. With the 3 mass cures, a cleric can spam though the blades without an issue.
2: more than 75% of the damage taken in Pt4 of the shroud comes from either the blades or AoE's, which hit all melees, even if you are not the direct damage taker... very little damage comes from actual melee damage from Arretrekos.
3: Everyone who he is not agrro'd on get the sneak attack (if the have a sneak attack) so at all times 11 people have the potential for sneak attack. Even if you never intim him.
4: and the most important reason not to intim him... Everytime you hit your intim button, even if your intim is on timer, you stop swinging for about 1 sec.. it is possible to stand there and not swing once. If you are hitting your intim every 6 sec, that means you are attacking for only 5 second out of 6, effectively reducing your DPS by about 20%. if you hit it more often, your DPS drops further... So your Kensai Bonus Damage is lost by using Intim.
5: what does it help to intim him? it's not like he is going anywhere unless you don't surround him.

So I say again, If you are intiming Arretrekos, you are just being silly.

4: Defenders have a lower DPS output than that of a Kensai, there is no denying that. But a well built, played one is hardly noticeable. A S&B Defender has way lower DPS... but should have built in a Higher DPS "mode"....

hardly noticeable? i hit over 220 on some crits with my kensai .. highest i ever hit as a stalwart was 180 ... and i hit more crits cause of the increased crit range .. then when you factor in khopeshes .... its drastically larger ... you just havent tested it out in comparison.
Yes, again, since I had all of the kensai feat requirements on my Defender, and most of the enhancments, it is only about a 10% increase in DPS and maybe a 15% increase in the number of crits.




7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....

i have never seen an intimidate only tank on big H .... cause it wouldnt work ... same goes for sully ... if you intimidate her and shield block you have to be doing nothing but ... cause the first time you forget to hit intimi right as your clicky resets ... bam someone takes a serious hit or maybe even pulls sully out of your intimidate range ...

personally i would rather warforged on sully and heavy dps or high ac on Horrath ... and intimidate doesnt help in there at all ...

Note: I said VoD (Vision of Destruction) not ToD (tower of dispare), In Vision, intim is an option, not always the best one, but a viable one. As for ToD, I agree, Horrath ports too much, and agrro seems to shift too easily for intim to be viable.. I'm sure there are some who do that with no problem, but, the guild has a solid almost no fail method, so why mess with what works.




9: Someone mentioned something about Defenders in Pugs... PuG's Both Raids and Quests are where my Defenders Shine... Often taking little damage, yet doing more DPS that the Badly built PuG Barbarian... As someone who plays clerics quite a bit, I'm very mindful of Damage taken and resources used.... I offer The clerics supplies, and they often turn them down, one even said to me, "I didn't need to put a lot into you, the Barb on the other hand..."


ok this i dont get ... pugs or guild runs is the same thing .. only difference is there are less noobs ... i solo alot so i notice MY health quite a bit .. .a cleric (or at least when i play mine) notices when someone dies or when someone sucks so bad that they take massive damage but generally in raids its mass heals and you cant tell anything ... especially with lag when your spaming and not even looking at who is going down faster ... you just see someone showing more then half red so heal again ... and if they dont get it then they where in the wrong place....

Odd that you don't see the bad as a cleric... I can tell a lot about toons, just by casting a mass cure serious... Moreso on my clerics than when I'm playing anything else


I am not saying defenders suck ...
Hmm... certainly seems like you are.



OK, I'll restate this... If you find Kensai to be "Sooo Much better", Play it... have fun with it. It's the same with every other argument about which is better... Up to the player. Some prefer one over another, and others will always disagree..

Raiderone
06-26-2010, 10:11 PM
OK....
1: Defender is to S&B as Ranger is to Bow&Arrow... The good ones will use it when the time is correct, the bad ones use it all the time.

2: just for giggles, I switched my enhancements from Stalwarts to Kensai just to try it out... I don't see myself keeping it for long, as already I'm not impressed.

3: Intim'ing Arretrekos is silly, Intiming Arretrekos while S&B foolish, 4 people intiming Arretrekos while S&B, well that's just sad. Put away the shield, and start swinging you "Insert Weapon(S) of choice"....

4: Defenders have a lower DPS output than that of a Kensai, there is no denying that. But a well built, played one is hardly noticeable. A S&B Defender has way lower DPS... but should have built in a Higher DPS "mode"....

5: If you want Max DPS, Why play Kensai... A Fully raged Barbarian with an Epic SoS does way more DPS than even a Kensai... Wouldn't this be a better choice for you?

6: Not everyone is looking for top DPS all the time... My Defender tanks well, and does decent enough DPS.

7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....

8: The slowdown in movement speed is not something I like, but it isn't the end all to me, as I use the stances when needed, not all the time.

9: Someone mentioned something about Defenders in Pugs... PuG's Both Raids and Quests are where my Defenders Shine... Often taking little damage, yet doing more DPS that the Badly built PuG Barbarian... As someone who plays clerics quite a bit, I'm very mindful of Damage taken and resources used.... I offer The clerics supplies, and they often turn them down, one even said to me, "I didn't need to put a lot into you, the Barb on the other hand..."

10: I just prefer the playstyle of the Defenders over Kensai or Barbarians... I have 2 defenders, and deleted my Barbarian at level 6. If you don't like Defenders, Don't play them... I don't like Barbarians or monks so I don't play them.

11: Even with the pathetic DPS of my Sibery's Defender, he is often the last one standing, and this includes the bad guys... it might take a bit longer, but he gets there...

12: Even The best Barbarians and Kensai are only about as good as the Cleric standing behind them...

I agree with almost everything you said except Item#1. Yes I've switched to TWF during raid fights. But thats not going to be a Good Option after U5. 2nd Weapon will only have 20% offhand attack.

So I'd rather keep that Tower Shield equiped and get my occasional Heal from Leviks Set.

I believe Defenders is one of the best PrE's in the Game (playing Pally/Fighter/Rogue Defender BUild 18/1/1). Besides Tempest.

But I'd still like more love to S&B...

cdemeritt
06-26-2010, 10:59 PM
I agree with almost everything you said except Item#1. Yes I've switched to TWF during raid fights. But thats not going to be a Good Option after U5. 2nd Weapon will only have 20% offhand attack.

So I'd rather keep that Tower Shield equiped and get my occasional Heal from Leviks Set.

I believe Defenders is one of the best PrE's in the Game (playing Pally/Fighter/Rogue Defender BUild 18/1/1). Besides Tempest.

But I'd still like more love to S&B...

I'll admit, I've not been able to keep track of all that is going on with TWF and the next update... however, at it's worse when it was first announced, that 20% was either for untrained or the 1st feat... since there are 3 twf feats, each adding to that %, the worst it was when it was first posted was around 55% w/all the TWF feats... Now with all the uproar over it, I believe it has been increased... Not sure how much, not even really worried about it. I will see how bad it is when it is released. But I can say, I would expect a very large part of the player base would be very unhappy if 3 feats only got you a 20% offhand attack....

Edit: Found this:



Some sample attack percentages with this system (assuming you took all possible available feats and enhancements) would be:

INVALID CHART FOLLOWS:
Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%
12 Ftr/6 Rng/2 Mnk 100% 70%
15 Pal/3 Mnk/2 [Any] (unarmed) 110% 60%
14 Pal/6 Rng 110% 65%
18 Rgr/2 Mnk 100% 90%


---

Edit:
Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%
* Only when wielding two weapons.

This set switches Wind Stance and Tempest III to doublestrike bonuses, increases the benefits of the TWF feat chain, and adds an additional feat for high BAB characters.

All of the bottom rows assume that the person has GTWF.



Still note sure the final outcome, won't know until tomorrow... but, still a lot more than a 20% to hit off hand.

Raiderone
06-26-2010, 11:05 PM
I'll admit, I've not been able to keep track of all that is going on with TWF and the next update... however, at it's worse when it was first announced, that 20% was either for untrained or the 1st feat... since there are 3 twf feats, each adding to that %, the worst it was when it was first posted was around 55% w/all the TWF feats... Now with all the uproar over it, I believe it has been increased... Not sure how much, not even really worried about it. I will see how bad it is when it is released. But I can say, I would expect a very large part of the player base would be very unhappy if 3 feats only got you a 20% offhand attack....

I was talking about a typical S&B. Doubt has TWF feats. So if switching to TWF, will have only 20% offhand attack.

Each TWF feat give 20% offhand attack. Tempest I and II give 10% and 15% (i believe).

Edit: Yah. My Defender is a Pally with one level of Fighter & Rogue.

cdemeritt
06-26-2010, 11:25 PM
I was talking about a typical S&B. Doubt has TWF feats. So if switching to TWF, will have only 20% offhand attack.

Each TWF feat give 20% offhand attack. Tempest I and II give 10% and 15% (i believe).

A fighter (Stalwarts Defender, has more than enough feats for the full TWF line, Defener line, and pleanty left over for extras...hence a defender "should have a DPS mode", reguardless if you go TWF or THF... Tempest doesn't apply here...

Edit: Forgot when posting this: Siberys Defenders (Pali) Don't get as many feats to play with, but they still should have enough to grab PA and 1 or 2 of the THF feats.....

emptysands
06-27-2010, 11:21 PM
Edit: Forgot when posting this: Siberys Defenders (Pali) Don't get as many feats to play with, but they still should have enough to grab PA and 1 or 2 of the THF feats.....

It's hard work for Paladins. I'm working on a Paladin build at the moment, and slotting dodge is difficult if you want the full line of THF/TWF. For example:

Level 1: Toughness
Level 3: Two Handed Fighting
Level 6: Extend and maybe switch to Combat Expertise at 20
Level 9: Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Level 12: Improved Two Handed Fighting
Level 15: Power Attack
Level 18: Greater Two Handed Fighting

It's still to be seen if the THF line is still useful. A TR2 Barb friend was considering dropping them.

The difference being between a Paladin and Fighter is the Paladin's don't need things like Iron Will or Bullheaded to help their saves.

Drfirewater79
06-28-2010, 09:34 AM
Sure if you are looking to be the highest dps fighter you can, you get more dps out of kensai, if you are looking to get decent dps and high ac, you get more benefits out of defender. Same with the paly pre's.

...

I dont want much added to the defender pre because it would be too overpowered. If they fixed defender hate stances, and maybe added action boosts to the pre as kensai has, it would be very close to balanced. You start adding more ac to the pre which already can add up to 11 more ac with gear, and you are making it unbalanced with other classes that would like to achieve decent ac.

.

did my test on my THF yesterday ... he was SD cause i was using him for intimidate in hound trying to get him a shield ....

his crits before the switch where doing on average 150-170 with a trip possitive vs harry (so no dr breaking on normal was my test ) i d doored out and changed to kensai

while i did lose some ac ... my dps went through the roof lowest crit i did was 248 highest i did was 275 (that is physical damage only so still add sneak damage holy good burst good blast on top of that ... also this is on a dwarven fighter using a great axe ... so some minor bonus to axe damage is also added ... could still be higher with TOD set items which i do not currently have ... and possibly with Shroud items also without currently.)

that is over 100 points per swing more ... without my choaker on ... plus 18-20 crit range

... do you really think removing slowed movement and adding a couple AC or DR points to defender will really make it OVERPOWERED when compared to other AC builds?

my monk right now self buffed to 73 .. other day in TOR hit 81 without a pali and without halfling boost and prolly some other weird numbers from that list ...

and i can tell you it wouldnt make me not want to play my monk if defenders got more from the pre ...

personally i would like defenders more if they just didnt have the slowed movement ...

get rid of that and i would switch at least one of my fighters to defender again np

any other boosts are secondary but slowed movement really sucks

Gulnar13
06-28-2010, 11:59 AM
5: If you want Max DPS, Why play Kensai... A Fully raged Barbarian with an Epic SoS does way more DPS than even a Kensai... Wouldn't this be a better choice for you?

7: While Intiming a raid boss (I.E. Suulo in VoD) a defender intim is often doing little to no DPS as they are often shieldblocking to avoid the curses... This does slow a raid down significantly... I prefer to let the WF hate tank be main tank, but it is nice to have the option to Take main tank spot when a hate tank isn't available....


5. The chart from lammania showed that the new top-dps char is a kensai with epic sos. Sad, but true. But this is not the point; it's just a different kind of play type. Some peoples prefer to be a expert of a single weapon, other a raging juggernaut that collect the head of dead enemies.

7. Just to point out; intimidating a boss offer the chance for the whole group to attack it in the same second you make the roll to intimidate. A hate tank, insted, will need time to build aggro, time when no one will be capable of hitting the boss. Also, the S&B would put less strain upon the healer.

Quikster
06-28-2010, 12:03 PM
7. Just to point out; intimidating a boss offer the chance for the whole group to attack it in the same second you make the roll to intimidate. A hate tank, insted, will need time to build aggro, time when no one will be capable of hitting the boss. Also, the S&B would put less strain upon the healer.

Not really. A true hate tank should be able to hold agro as soon as sully is in place. A pure dps tank otoh (ie wfd barb) may need a bit of time if there are pcs in the group that can do more dps. But a well build hate tank should need no time to build agro, remember they only need to produce enough dps+hate to out dps 1 member of the group.

Gulnar13
06-28-2010, 12:06 PM
Not really. A true hate tank should be able to hold agro as soon as sully is in place. A pure dps tank otoh (ie wfd barb) may need a bit of time if there are pcs in the group that can do more dps. But a well build hate tank should need no time to build agro, remember they only need to produce enough dps+hate to out dps 1 member of the group.

Didn't thought about that. I should really stop raiding with bad barbs tank, this is really biasing my opinion. XD

Quikster
06-28-2010, 12:10 PM
did my test on my THF yesterday ... he was SD cause i was using him for intimidate in hound trying to get him a shield ....

his crits before the switch where doing on average 150-170 with a trip possitive vs harry (so no dr breaking on normal was my test ) i d doored out and changed to kensai

while i did lose some ac ... my dps went through the roof lowest crit i did was 248 highest i did was 275 (that is physical damage only so still add sneak damage holy good burst good blast on top of that ... also this is on a dwarven fighter using a great axe ... so some minor bonus to axe damage is also added ... could still be higher with TOD set items which i do not currently have ... and possibly with Shroud items also without currently.)

that is over 100 points per swing more ... without my choaker on ... plus 18-20 crit range

... do you really think removing slowed movement and adding a couple AC or DR points to defender will really make it OVERPOWERED when compared to other AC builds?

my monk right now self buffed to 73 .. other day in TOR hit 81 without a pali and without halfling boost and prolly some other weird numbers from that list ...

and i can tell you it wouldnt make me not want to play my monk if defenders got more from the pre ...

personally i would like defenders more if they just didnt have the slowed movement ...

get rid of that and i would switch at least one of my fighters to defender again np

any other boosts are secondary but slowed movement really sucks



Yes the dps of a kensai is higher, how many times do I have to say it? It would be significant if we had 30 min encounters, as it sits most encounters that require steady dps are <8 minutes with the exception of tod elite.

I personally dont find the movment speed to be all that hindering. I work around it. But thats just me. I dont care if they change that tbh.

I think shields need a boost, but not necessarily just for defenders, but the shields themselves.

I would like to see defenders get the same amount of haste boosts as a kensai.

I feel like a broken record. If you want big dps, go kensai, if you want big ac, go defender. Its really that simple. No I dont think kensai is better then defender, I think they are different. Yes I have played kensai I know exactly what the dps difference is vs the ac difference.

Your posts are repeatedly asking for more for the defender, followed up with the dps difference. Let me be clear, dps is not the primary focus of the defender.

At one point you asked for uber ac and top tier dps, let me be clear, this does not exist. Even with the most balanced of builds, you always give up one for the other.



Edit:: If you are concerned about dps, trade that choker, The biggest dps the choker can add is in its trade value :D

Drfirewater79
06-28-2010, 12:11 PM
Not really. A true hate tank should be able to hold agro as soon as sully is in place. A pure dps tank otoh (ie wfd barb) may need a bit of time if there are pcs in the group that can do more dps. But a well build hate tank should need no time to build agro, remember they only need to produce enough dps+hate to out dps 1 member of the group.

this i can agree with hate > intimidate in many cases ...

high hate especially if you add DT hate and other such things ... can be useful ...

and warforged barbs that dont have high hate .. generally suck at holding agro .. i have to intentionally lower my dps on my MONK to avoid taking it off of them in most cases ... like in TOD for instance .. i generally have to stay out of boss combat till they are near half done or my dark monk will pull agro ... and good thing my kensai THF isnt ready for TOD yet ... cause man ... i would be pulling agro fast :)

Quikster
06-28-2010, 12:13 PM
this i can agree with hate > intimidate in many cases ...

high hate especially if you add DT hate and other such things ... can be useful ...

and warforged barbs that dont have high hate .. generally suck at holding agro .. i have to intentionally lower my dps on my MONK to avoid taking it off of them in most cases ... like in TOD for instance .. i generally have to stay out of boss combat till they are near half done or my dark monk will pull agro ... and good thing my kensai THF isnt ready for TOD yet ... cause man ... i would be pulling agro fast :)

Sometimes you have to go with what you got in group (all the time if you join my groups :) ) so lowering dps is sometimes required to minimize resources. That said, a hate tank or intimitank can tank any raid in the game just fine.

Drfirewater79
06-28-2010, 12:23 PM
Yes the dps of a kensai is higher, how many times do I have to say it? It would be significant if we had 30 min encounters, as it sits most encounters that require steady dps are <8 minutes with the exception of tod elite.

I personally dont find the movment speed to be all that hindering. I work around it. But thats just me. I dont care if they change that tbh.

I think shields need a boost, but not necessarily just for defenders, but the shields themselves.

I would like to see defenders get the same amount of haste boosts as a kensai.

I feel like a broken record. If you want big dps, go kensai, if you want big ac, go defender. Its really that simple. No I dont think kensai is better then defender, I think they are different. Yes I have played kensai I know exactly what the dps difference is vs the ac difference.

Your posts are repeatedly asking for more for the defender, followed up with the dps difference. Let me be clear, dps is not the primary focus of the defender.

At one point you asked for uber ac and top tier dps, let me be clear, this does not exist. Even with the most balanced of builds, you always give up one for the other.



Edit:: If you are concerned about dps, trade that choker, The biggest dps the choker can add is in its trade value :D


Yeah i agree ..... after doing some number crunching i am thinking i am gonna try to trade off the choker to someone who is willing to pass it off for a DOD or something similar for my warforged barb (lol)

I agree that shields need a boost ... i just figured if it was done in a pre that is primarily a good over all S&B pre (regardless of if you use it twf or not) it would make more sense then adding it overall ...

removing the movement speed issue allows defenders to stay in stance rather then constantly switching out .... cause dps wise ... outside of raid bosses ... you might as well forget the small boost to str and con cause the mobs will be dead before you get to them when frenzi and kensai are in the party ...

intimidate works great if the mobs are in range ... and if they get to you and they are still alive ...

adding an ac or dr boost while wearing a shield that is better then the one already in the pre ... wouldnt be over powered it would replace dps with nice ac ....

that is the only point i have been trying to make this whole thread

removing movement penalty adds usefulness

adding ac and dr adds reason to S&B

including both of these in the Defender pre's

makes it more attractive .... to everyone ... not just uber ac attempt people .. .but standard S&B'ers and fighters over all ..

right now at end game its more powerful thus more useful to be kensai ... and it should be even playing field but because AC means so little unless you hit uber range ... the pre focused on giving AC should be much easier to hit uber range .. IMHO.

for flavor purposes if nothing else.

Quikster
06-28-2010, 01:03 PM
Yeah i agree ..... after doing some number crunching i am thinking i am gonna try to trade off the choker to someone who is willing to pass it off for a DOD or something similar for my warforged barb (lol)

I agree that shields need a boost ... i just figured if it was done in a pre that is primarily a good over all S&B pre (regardless of if you use it twf or not) it would make more sense then adding it overall ...

removing the movement speed issue allows defenders to stay in stance rather then constantly switching out .... cause dps wise ... outside of raid bosses ... you might as well forget the small boost to str and con cause the mobs will be dead before you get to them when frenzi and kensai are in the party ...

intimidate works great if the mobs are in range ... and if they get to you and they are still alive ...

adding an ac or dr boost while wearing a shield that is better then the one already in the pre ... wouldnt be over powered it would replace dps with nice ac ....

that is the only point i have been trying to make this whole thread

removing movement penalty adds usefulness

adding ac and dr adds reason to S&B

including both of these in the Defender pre's

makes it more attractive .... to everyone ... not just uber ac attempt people .. .but standard S&B'ers and fighters over all ..

right now at end game its more powerful thus more useful to be kensai ... and it should be even playing field but because AC means so little unless you hit uber range ... the pre focused on giving AC should be much easier to hit uber range .. IMHO.

for flavor purposes if nothing else.

Going in and out of stance is not a huge issue. Rarely will you have to do it, most trash is well, trash and goes down plenty fast.

If we are going to boost shields, we should do just that, boost shields, not specific pres.

YOU think its more powerful to be kensai at end game. Not everyone agrees. Its simply a different form of power. When the defender pres were implimented it allowed fighters and palys to keep up with monks splashed rangers/rogs/palys/fighters. As it sits right now a fighter with the defender pre can gait up to 11 ac with a tod set. Thats the = of a 30 wisdom on a monk splash (30 is a pretty big dedication) I think its more than balanced. I no more want to see all ac builds be defenders then i want to see em be monk splashes. IF the two pres need balance, nerf kensai.



Edit:Just to add, hitting uber ac requires a gear grind/dps sacrifice no matter the class. I have already shown in this thread a basic ac breakdown for a defender to get high enough ac to tank any raid on normal. Why should it be easy to get whats needed to tank hard or elite?? It should be hard or elite to get that gear, not as simple as taking a specific pre.


Edit 2: Yes dps is needed at end game, no it doesnt always have to be "max dps" Having less dps and significantly more ac can be just as effective. Note the times of the speed runs for vod and shroud. All ours were done when the cap was 16, before kensai/frenzied mostly with dex high ac builds. The new speed records set by level 20s with kensai/frenzied pres and epic sos's. A HUGE boost in dps. How much faster was the new runs vs the old runs?

If these encounters involved 30+ minutes of beating on a raid boss, kensai would be much more powerful then stalwart unless the needed ac number to not get hit was one only achievable by a defender. As it stands now, tod elite is very much in that category. Much longer fight, and the ac needed to not get hit is much higher than a kensai can hope to achieve. That doesnt mean kensai cant tank tod elite, but their defense becomes hitpoints and a big dps group to take the boss down fast enough, where as a defender can still use ac, have very similar hitpoints, and still have a huge dps group behind them. IMO they are very close in power the way the game currently is.

Drfirewater79
06-28-2010, 03:39 PM
YOU think its more powerful to be kensai at end game. Not everyone agrees. Its simply a different form of power. When the defender pres were implimented it allowed fighters and palys to keep up with monks splashed rangers/rogs/palys/fighters. As it sits right now a fighter with the defender pre can gait up to 11 ac with a tod set. Thats the = of a 30 wisdom on a monk splash (30 is a pretty big dedication) I think its more than balanced. I no more want to see all ac builds be defenders then i want to see em be monk splashes. IF the two pres need balance, nerf kensai.

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nerfing is never a good solution ... it always makes more sense to boost the weaker of the two for balancing issues ...

cannot believe anyone would suggest nerfing anything after update 5 ....

Quikster
06-28-2010, 09:16 PM
nerfing is never a good solution ... it always makes more sense to boost the weaker of the two for balancing issues ...

cannot believe anyone would suggest nerfing anything after update 5 ....

Up the weaker of the two instead of nerf for balance? Or to not upset your player base.

For example, the khopesh is overpowered. So youre saying for balance sake, we should up the damage on all the rest of the weapons available? Ok, is this based on game balance? Because imo game balance would be closer to balanced if we nerfed the khopesh instead of making everything else do more damage.

Either way, guess im not as doom and gloom as everyone else about this bout of nerfs. IMO if something becomes totally gimp'd they will bump it down the road. Might be a mod or 2 but they will bump it. Im actually giving turbine a C for this update. Any update that can avoid the downtimes/crashes/issues that gave us about a week off in mod 8 i believe, is at least passing imo lol.[

emptysands
06-29-2010, 12:18 AM
Not really. A true hate tank should be able to hold agro as soon as sully is in place. A pure dps tank otoh (ie wfd barb) may need a bit of time if there are pcs in the group that can do more dps. But a well build hate tank should need no time to build agro, remember they only need to produce enough dps+hate to out dps 1 member of the group.

Quick side question. I've read the Defender PrE tier3 threat boost (200%) is broken at the moment. How is it broken? Is it better just to use the tier2 stance for hate tanking at 100% threat generation?

Quikster
06-29-2010, 12:21 AM
Quick side question. I've read the Defender PrE tier3 threat boost (200%) is broken at the moment. How is it broken? Is it better just to use the tier2 stance for hate tanking at 100% threat generation?

I havent noticed tier II working better, but a guildie swears it is.

I usually hate tank horoth with tier III up, but his agro is a bit different than other bosses. Sully I have tanked with tier III up in pugs and never lost agro, even when chained, but i suspect that to be an issue with group dps moreso than hate stance. I do have the defender set so that produces some hate, but likely im not getting 200% as i dont think i would lose agro over anything very much if that were the case.

sephiroth1084
06-29-2010, 09:41 AM
Another reason, that I didn't see on the first or last page for why the defender PrEs aren't popular is that using the primary feature of the class works against DDO's biggest draw:active combat. No one wants to wait around for the guy moving at half, or even 3/4 speed, and the guy running that slowly feels is acutely because he's contrasting it with the run speed he had with haste.

Quikster
06-29-2010, 10:44 AM
Another reason, that I didn't see on the first or last page for why the defender PrEs aren't popular is that using the primary feature of the class works against DDO's biggest draw:active combat. No one wants to wait around for the guy moving at half, or even 3/4 speed, and the guy running that slowly feels is acutely because he's contrasting it with the run speed he had with haste.

Yeah thats been argued ad nausea.

vyvy3369
06-29-2010, 05:46 PM
I havent noticed tier II working better, but a guildie swears it is.

I usually hate tank horoth with tier III up, but his agro is a bit different than other bosses. Sully I have tanked with tier III up in pugs and never lost agro, even when chained, but i suspect that to be an issue with group dps moreso than hate stance. I do have the defender set so that produces some hate, but likely im not getting 200% as i dont think i would lose agro over anything very much if that were the case.
I honestly haven't tried in a long time, but I did quite a lot of testing and am pretty confident that the hate on Stance 3 doesn't work (or at least, doesn't work as well as stance 2). For example, I was able to consistently reproduce losing aggro in stance 3 and regaining aggro after switching to stance 2. The easiest to test on was ToD part 2, since it doesn't matter quite so much who has aggro.