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Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 07:43 PM
I was advised that I should remove this thread. (is it possible ffor me to do that?)

I considered deleting the OP and replacing it with "NM" or something similar.

But I'm not a believe in hiding thr truth...etc.

Anyway, I guess what I say below is a wrong assumption on my part. I though it made sense, based on what I thought was a widespread problem with new players.

So...I've changed my mind and been convinced that this is a bad suggestion...the OP stil below for your amusement or whatever....that's just how I roll.

End Edit














Mostly Korthos, but all quests actually.

As new players really want to be able to solo. And can easily get discouraged by their char's inablility to do so.

Some specific changes.... Anyone of any class and any build should be able to find secret doors in korthos.

And if the 8 Wisdom and Int Ftr can spot thesecret door anywhere, he should be abe to find it too. Not talking about someone who invests in Spot. Or even a high Wis char.....can't have everything.

But in Korthos you should. No new guy wants to feel like he has an inadequate char. And when he can't fidna door he feels that way.

Locks....should have keys. Somewhere.
Yes I know not always ture in old dungeons.....but Rogues should be nice to have, not required.

Same goes for Rogues and traps but I'm not gonna ask you to redisign 75% of the dungeons....
But you shold lower DCs and damage of traps that are requires for completion to get by.

Again rogues hould be nice to have....should be there to make things easier....not needed for completion.

but at low levels even an optional chest should have a way for a soloing ftr to get inside it.

The goal is to not make people feel like they need to reroll or multi-class to play this game.


Grouping in Korthos is horrible. Soooo un new guy friendly.
Fix it.

I should never find that after I finally figured out how to get in a group that I cannot do the quest everyone else wants to do because I'm not on the right part of the story....or in the right season of the island....etc. But especially the story parts.


More access to healing pots.
The other new player soloing problem. Korthos actually does a decent job here with one thing...breakables and pots. Epsecially Misery's peak seems to drop a lot of them from breakables.
But I'd like to see more. I'd like to see all new players with all the starter light heal pots they would ever need in Korthos.

And in general add more to breakables everywhere.
I don't want a stupid potion of sonic resist that I don't have room in my bacpack for.
But if every ten barrels I broke had a CSW pot in it, I'd be breaking a lot of them.

Add some of those any class can use healing rods to the treasure tables too.

My goal is not to make the higher level game too easy. My goal is to make the lower level game solo friendly for new guys.

But in general, no one should be un-able to solo because of their class.
Tough fights ...yes. an impassible trap....or a locked door.....no.

A little look at low level sneaking as well.
For instance, Stealthy repossession should be completable by an 8 Dex Ftr is he takes off his armor and learns how to sneak in DDO IMO.

I know that one is harder to balance, but at least that quest should be possible for any class of char to complete properly.

Again, I know you can't redo most of the quests in the game, but please try to design new quests with stealth in mind as a possibility.

Just cause you do not have any ranks in it, does not mean you should not get some benefit from trying to sneak by things instead of fighting them.

(actually, in many cases you do get a benefit from it, but I want to see new players encouraged to try stealth...even on a Ftr)

I realise that a lot of people will not agree with me here. And I'm not even sure myself about exactly what I want to see changed.

But my goal is that new players should not be discouraged from soloing, or feel they need to change their char class in some way to do so.

And that all quests should be soloable to someone who is powerful enough to handle the fighting parts....and not prevented from it by simple quest design.

Also that unskilled chars should still get some use from search and stealth and other skills if you can find a way to implement it.
My main reasoning in this part is because of the few skill point that most clases get precludes any ranks in skills they do not use often, and back to the part of making any class feel like he can solo a quest.

flynnjsw
06-19-2010, 07:46 PM
I am sorry, but please tell me you are being sarcastic here? Just hand them the easy button from word go and just keep handing it to them; that's the plan? All I can say is that unless this is high sarcasm, then NO, NOT EVER.

Sabvre
06-19-2010, 07:51 PM
you seem to want to eliminate class roles in solo play. If you make everything spotable and everything unlockable... rogues have what need?

DToNE
06-19-2010, 07:51 PM
In some ways, I really hope this is a joke post. This game, by far, is one of the more new-player friendly games there are. Most new players don't know much about customizing characters, thus they go for built-in builds with their paths, making it VERY new player friendly. The Korthos and Harbor area are -EASILY- soloable by new players, (which is why so many "battle clerics" spring up), and it's doing exactly what it's meant to do, prepare players for later content. No one plays a MMO to be anti-social, quite the contrary. Social games should be played in a social manner, otherwise they'd be playing a single player game.

When I first played the game, Korthos did exactly what it was meant to do, show me some D&D fun. They did a good job of that.

Besides D&D is all about using your head, not being baby-fed and babysat through the entire game career.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 07:58 PM
I am sorry, but please tell me you are being sarcastic here? Just hand them the easy button from word go and just keep handing it to them; that's the plan? All I can say is that unless this is high sarcasm, then NO, NOT EVER.

I'm serious.

But admittedly having trouble deciding exactly what I wanted to say or how to say it.

Over and over again I see people on thse forums who want to solo.

Also people wanting to multiclass for no other reason than to be able to solo.

And over and over again I see people being told to reroll. Which is advice I hate.

I want this game to be new player friendly. The first obsticle is the game mechanics and dungeon designs.

The second is other players giving advice...that usually comes down to reroll.

And I also have a special problem with Stealthy repossesion being a Rogue's only playground... And stealth in general being unsable by many classes.

other skills too.



No....I don't want an easy button per say. In fact, I want many quests to be darn hard to complete.

But not because of your class choice.

And I do not want quests being un-soloable beause of class choice and two man levers.....etc. things like that.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 08:03 PM
dang it....wish I knew how to better explain what I want and what my concerns are.

I love Rogues. in no way do I want to make Rogues useless.

What I hate is people wanting to multi-class becuase they cannot find a door or open a chest.

And I hate that any class should be needed to complete any quest.



I also think that chars with no ranks in skills should still find uses for those skills.

Certainly I am open for suggestions here on how to achieve those goals.

GreenGurgler
06-19-2010, 08:06 PM
I am sorry, but please tell me you are being sarcastic here? Just hand them the easy button from word go and just keep handing it to them; that's the plan? All I can say is that unless this is high sarcasm, then NO, NOT EVER.

Yeah, I hope your right that the OP is experimenting in humor and sarcasm.

But just in case he's not....

Given your forum date (2006), I assume you remember what the game was like back in 06'?

You want to talk about noob UN-friendly.... The game used to be very noob unfriendly. Since 06', many changes have been made to make it a lot easier for new players to jump in and learn the game...ala Korthos Island.

Solo friendly? Remember back in 06' that Turbine actually used to promote NOT soloing. They even used to say "friends don't let friends Solo...". Their was NO solo difficulty. Most players would get smeared if they tried to solo. Since the inception of the Solo quest option and hirelings, this game has become extremely solo friendly.

What, you want your fighter to be able to find traps? Open Locks? What next... cast fireballs and mass heals? Why not, it would make it easier for the new players to solo... why not eliminate all classes entirely and just make one... THE UBER SOLOIST who can be all and do all.

Why would it be a BAD idea to make this game MORE solo-able and easier for new players only in Korthos as you put it?

First, because it already is and has been.
Second, if you make it TOO easy and solo friendly, they will just cry TWICE as hard when they get to the Marketplace and beyond. They need to learn some very valuable lessons/skills in Korthos and as any parent can tell you, your kid does need to scrape his knees to learn how to ride his bike. If the poor dears don't learn that every class cannot fill every roll, how will they learn how to survive in a post Korthos world? They will crash and burn because they have been coddled in Korthos. If the fighter doesn't learn that Traps can kill you and you may want to bring a rogue to take care of them, he will get his a$$ smeared in post-Korthos. If your new player doesn't learn that healing pots don't grow on trees, they will never learn to conserve and ration his supplies.

Players Must learn certain skills sooner or later and your suggestions make the gap between sooner and later even more painful for a new player.

Ultimately, the new player will learn nothing about how to survive in a post-Korthos area if you bubble wrap him and give him a straight line to follow and slip in a magic easy button if things get to hard. Whether they want to or not, to get far in DDO, you MUST learn how to group, what your roll is in a group, how to communicate with the group and what your limitations are. Anything less is pointless. Go play Oblivion or NWN if you don't like grouping. Don't come to a MMORPG MASSIVE world and try and get it changed to fit a single player experience. You are unfairly asking to much. Their are plenty of other venues to satisfy that kind of appetite.

Oh, and did we mention the game has already had significant changes to make it easier, solo-able and more new player friendly.... just how easy do you want it?

Lastly, I don't believe you believe this after being here 4 years... unless this isn't the original account holder posting ;)

thebrute7
06-19-2010, 08:07 PM
I am a new player (only about 2 months here) and I will tell you that the low level quests do NOT need changing, nor do the mid level quests. DDO is not like other MMOs and quests are HARD TO SOLO.

If you want to solo in DDO learn the quest on casual first. Then once you know it try normal, and there is no reason that Hard or Elite should be at all easy toi solo. As a new player I will say that I don't want the quests to be easy. I am here because they are hard and there isn't an easy-button.

In summary /not signed

EDIT: Oh and there is no quest I know of that REQUIRES you to have a rogue or any other class to solo. You won't be able to get the optionals, but guess what? They are OPTIONAL.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 08:09 PM
you seem to want to eliminate class roles in solo play. If you make everything spotable and everything unlockable... rogues have what need?

But whay should Rogues be the only class who can solo?

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 08:12 PM
In some ways, I really hope this is a joke post. This game, by far, is one of the more new-player friendly games there are. Most new players don't know much about customizing characters, thus they go for built-in builds with their paths, making it VERY new player friendly. The Korthos and Harbor area are -EASILY- soloable by new players, (which is why so many "battle clerics" spring up), and it's doing exactly what it's meant to do, prepare players for later content. No one plays a MMO to be anti-social, quite the contrary. Social games should be played in a social manner, otherwise they'd be playing a single player game.

When I first played the game, Korthos did exactly what it was meant to do, show me some D&D fun. They did a good job of that.

Besides D&D is all about using your head, not being baby-fed and babysat through the entire game career.

I'm glad to hear your first experiences were good, and that you like Korthos....i'm just surprised.

I see sooo many question sin chat that seem like people are frustrated, and I see so much advice telling people they screwed up their build and to reroll.... even just for taking a certain path (or any path at all).

Maybe I'm wrong. I just thought new guys were getting discouraged.

Trillea
06-19-2010, 08:12 PM
But whay should Rogues be the only class who can solo?

They're not, and never have been.

Sabvre
06-19-2010, 08:14 PM
But whay should Rogues be the only class who can solo?

Um in my opinion rogues are one of hte only classes that can't solo. In korthos maybe they can but later on no.

I've been able to solo sooo much content with my monk, but my rogue gets destroyed without someone tanking for her.

just because you missed a chest or a bonus door doesn't mean you can't solo. If you are talking about traps... yeah traps can be a pain for non rogue/ranger, but if you built your char to solo you'll have high enough saves to make it.

GreenGurgler
06-19-2010, 08:15 PM
I want this game to be new player friendly. The first obsticle is the game mechanics and dungeon designs.
-Both of which MUST be learned if the player has any chance of sticking around long term. At some point, whether in Korthos or Harbor or Market etc... they MUST learn the mechanics and how they work in each quest. To expect less makes playing the game pointless.



The second is other players giving advice...that usually comes down to reroll.
-sometimes, yes... .doesn't mean its wrong advice. Sometimes it is, sometimes it s the correct answer. Just because someone doesn't like the answer doesn't mean it is an incorrect answer.



And I also have a special problem with Stealthy repossesion being a Rogue's only playground... And stealth in general being unsable by many classes.

other skills too.
-Why? Out of hundreds and hundreds of quests... whats wrong with a HANDFUL of them catering to a specific class? It makes that class feel special in certain situations. It lets that class really shine and if a new player was the rogue in that, it should give him a confidence boost. Hundreds of quests and you really want all of them to follow the same recipe?



No....I don't want an easy button per say. In fact, I want many quests to be darn hard to complete.
-Yet you keep championing for exactly that.... which is it? If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck...???

But not because of your class choice.

And I do not want quests being un-soloable beause of class choice and two man levers.....etc. things like that.
-Again, I go back to the above... Why not? Out of hundreds of quests, is it so wrong to have a few quests that use this mechanic (and it is a few based on the whole)? Are there not situations in life that cannot be done alone? That require the help of others to accomplish? Others with different skill sets than you have??

Im sorry man, but if you really mean your not advocating for an easy button then stop proposing exactly that.

GreenGurgler
06-19-2010, 08:16 PM
But whay should Rogues be the only class who can solo?

By far they are NOT the only class that can solo. Most would say they are hard to solo. Only in CERTAIN quests are they the only ones that can solo it.

muncholuncho
06-19-2010, 08:16 PM
in a word..
NO
This game has been dumbed down so much since f2p that last thing we need is to make it easier if ya cant get it go back to playing with rocks,sticks and prolly your feces.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 08:33 PM
I guess I'm perceiving as problem that does not exist....sry if that is true.

Let me give this example though.

Proof is in the poison. is extremely tough for many players. Some vets even said they avoid it til much higher level and come back and do it for favor only.

Yet is does not require a rogue to complete.....or any class at all.
It has one optional chest that haas to have it's door picked. But would it hurt to have the end boss drop the key for it?

People think it needs a rogue because fof the first couple traps.....but they are easily avoidable if you know how. Easily! Unlike STk traps...unlike Greymoon. The traps in Proof is in the Poison are easily gotten around by the squishiest of chars....needing no twitch skills at all....only knowledge of where to step.

LAck of self healing and one shrine is the problem here. but any vet with enough cash can bring a stack of pots and do just fine in thie quest.

Any class can solo this one. He needs pots and only pots. And he can do it at level if he knows how to single pull....

yet this is universally considered a difficult quest.

The Trog quest too (name is escaping me right now). DoctorWhoFan said she wil not do this quest at level either. In her case as a cleric watching a group of bumbling noobs.... but again. No Rogue required. And soloable by someone who knows how with enough self healing.

It's the toughness of the monsters that impeeds the soloing of these quests, not the quest design itself.


But back on Korthos, we have a blade trap and a poison thrap that any char can Spot hidden the doors.....but many chars cannot find the doors.

And they see a chest they cannot get.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that right after that is when they start posting about taking Rogue levels on their Barbarians.

And for the rest of the game their barbarian wil not be able to find anything! not one little thing in the game....ever. by searching for it.

he will also not be able to sneak by anything.....ever. Even if he magically was granted the knowledge of Ghoste, his 8 Dex no stealth ranks Barbarian will forever have as much siccess when sneaking as if was wearing bells on his feet.

he goes in a quest....the DM says "stealth might be an asset here" The Dm fails to tell him that he should have rerolled as a Rogue if he plans to follow the Dm's advice.

And that just seems wrong to me. :(

phillymiket
06-19-2010, 08:33 PM
Hmmmmmm
I think it's good that Korthos has secret doors and locked doors and stuff that plays to each characters strengths and weaknesses.

How else can someone learn what the trade offs for each class are?

Better they find out early that their super meleeing barb will miss chests and optionals and struggle with self healing and the rogue will be the opposite.
I'm glad that results for each class on the "training" island vary and you are forced to consider which class fits your play style before you invest lots of time in a character only to get a rude awakening later.
I'm glad that the game encourages you to try hirelings or grouping early.

I think I know what you are saying; that it would be better to have a new person just get a good feel for the game and be encouraged with positive reinforcement and not deal with the ugly realities until later.
But I think it's better as is. (and I'm "Mr. Solo" and a lousy player to boot)
Just my 2cp.

Edit - just read your latest post. I agree the idea of just "adding" an arbitrary level of this or that seems to be prevalent. I wish it was stressed more (or somewhere) that multi-classing is tricky business. Maybe one of those "advice" NCPs on the island could give some multi-class stratagies like they try to do for meleeing. (maybe they do - I tend to ignore those guys)

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 08:40 PM
Well I guess everyone is unversally opposed to this idea....so never mind. :(

seems I'm seeing problems that do not exist too...since at least one new player disagrees with me.

Oh well. bad idea I guess.

:o

DoctorWhofan
06-19-2010, 08:43 PM
I guess I'm perceiving as problem that does not exist....sry if that is true.

sorry but you are.

Let me give this example though.

Proof is in the poison. is extremely tough for many players. Some vets even said they avoid it til much higher level and come back and do it for favor only. That's because of TURBINE not the playerbase. It's mislabeled.

Yet is does not require a rogue to complete.....or any class at all.
It has one optional chest that haas to have it's door picked. But would it hurt to have the end boss drop the key for it?

Not really, that's just bonus.

People think it needs a rogue because fof the first couple traps.....but they are easily avoidable if you know how. Easily! Unlike STk traps...unlike Greymoon. The traps in Proof is in the Poison are easily gotten around by the squishiest of chars....needing no twitch skills at all....only knowledge of where to step.

IF YOU KNOW HOW...THere is the statment that counterdicts your OP. BTW, the other traps can be avoided by a smart caster with the right buffs at level.

LAck of self healing and one shrine is the problem here. but any vet with enough cash can bring a stack of pots and do just fine in thie quest.

Are you trying to put me out of a job?? THere is a TON of self healing. Again, that's where the new players gotta figure that out, most do.

Any class can solo this one. He needs pots and only pots. And he can do it at level if he knows how to single pull....

yet this is universally considered a difficult quest.



The Trog quest too (name is escaping me right now). DoctorWhoFan said she wil not do this quest at level either. In her case as a cleric watching a group of bumbling noobs.... but again. No Rogue required. And soloable by someone who knows how with enough self healing.

It's the toughness of the monsters that impeeds the soloing of these quests, not the quest design itself.


But back on Korthos, we have a blade trap and a poison thrap that any char can Spot hidden the doors.....but many chars cannot find the doors.

And they see a chest they cannot get.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that right after that is when they start posting about taking Rogue levels on their Barbarians.

And for the rest of the game their barbarian wil not be able to find anything! not one little thing in the game....ever. by searching for it.

he will also not be able to sneak by anything.....ever. Even if he magically was granted the knowledge of Ghoste, his 8 Dex no stealth ranks Barbarian will forever have as much siccess when sneaking as if was wearing bells on his feet.

he goes in a quest....the DM says "stealth might be an asset here" The Dm fails to tell him that he should have rerolled as a Rogue if he plans to follow the Dm's advice.

And that just seems wrong to me. :(


Ok... you have been playing the weird builds for too long. Build a straight non-ranger rogue character and take it to 20. What you are saying isn't a problem.

Talon you are my friend, so I would suggest you to remove this thread beforetoo long, You are NOT saying what you mean and you are suggesting things that do not need to be fixed because you play an awesome mixed class of uberness. ANd nothing else. You have forgot what it is like to do all that and be needed.

Finally, soloablity is super easy and you know it. Stop suggesting it to be easier.

Ganolyn
06-19-2010, 08:50 PM
Certainly I am open for suggestions here on how to achieve those goals.


I think the trick would be to make quests that can be soloed, but not solo friendly. For example:

There is a long way and a short way to path a quest.

The short way involves opening a blocked route by needing Rogue skills or exceptional STR or using a rune that requires another high stat or just needing more than one warm body. If you have the right party make up your quest time will be shorter and there should be loot/XP rewards associated with it to make it the more attractive option.

The long way involves going around the blockage in a long time consuming path that involves non loot/XP oriented tasks to get you to your goal. Things like jumping ledges over lava or deep pits (you fall, you die) or running for your life against things you can't kill ala Whisperdoom, skill tests like in Prove Your Worth/The Pit etc...

Both can get you to quest completion, but the party way is better. What it gives is solo/short man ability, but not make it a benefit.

Xyfiel
06-19-2010, 09:18 PM
+1 for good intentions. Now work on the presentation.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-19-2010, 10:02 PM
Ok... you have been playing the weird builds for too long. Build a straight non-ranger rogue character and take it to 20. What you are saying isn't a problem.

Talon you are my friend, so I would suggest you to remove this thread beforetoo long, You are NOT saying what you mean and you are suggesting things that do not need to be fixed because you play an awesome mixed class of uberness. ANd nothing else. You have forgot what it is like to do all that and be needed.

Finally, soloablity is super easy and you know it. Stop suggesting it to be easier.

I probably should just quit while I'm a behind but I thought I should respond to your comments at least.

I've been trying to put you out of a job for years... :D

I actually do not like soloing, except when I'm feeling especially anti-social.

I usually take the stance that the game should not be soloable or cattered to soloers.

But I see post after post by people wanting to solo their way through DDO. Just thought that if a high enough percentage of new guys want it, we should help them.

I actually did exactly what I see many new player saying they want to do....I tried to solo at first....off and on. I came to my first lock and trap and decided to multi-class to Rogue.

I had a little more insight than others I would like to think. I actually had a plan (after the fact anyway)...a plan based on a cap of 10, and not anticipating changes and enhancments....etc. But a plan none the less.

You know I hate roles, and I hate waiting for clerics.....or any other class.

I join lots of in-experianced PUGs and find myself in groups like STK elite....with no rogue. I don't want to tell anyone we can't do it without a rogue, or tell someone they need to drop...etc. But I know darn well we will not get past the Acid trap...let alone the fire traps.

I can throw money at most problems to get by without a cleric.... But I can't complete certain quests without disabling certain traps.

Yes sometimes you can get by them with great twitch skills ot a ton of HPs. But the whole party cannot.

You are right in some ways about me. Although I did take a Cleric to 20, (but I never took her in the Shroud or several other raids) I dislike playing a char that cannot do everthing.

Any char I play that does not have evasion feels real handicapped...especially at traps.
Any char that cannot jump over an enemies head to get away when surrounded. Any char that has no effective ranged attack.
Not being able to self heal or self buff.

Or I've been in quests where I played a caster and used CC spells and it was easy. Then I go in the same quest on my cleric and watch a bunch of idiots who can't stay alive 2 seconds.....or on a Ftr and die myself...knowing full well that when I was playing a caster no one hardly got hurt at all.

Most of the great soloers choose WF casters....so that they do not have to rely on anyone else.

In my case it's similar, I do not want to have to rely on anyone else.

But in this post's case, I was responding forum posts from new players wanting to solo... some of thos enew players are very high level still trying to solo.

And responding to numerous questions in chat.

And the ever present advice to reroll. The advice that the paths are useless and what i though would make new players turned off to the game.

My own feelings about Korthos. I can solo them, but would prefer the fun of a group. But if I join an LFM for like "korthos elite" guaranteed they have already done the first one without me and soon they will do Colaberator and I will not be on the quest.
And although I am smart enough to know to enter colaborator even though I am not on, the next stpe will be outsode the gate where I cannot join them until I do at least two more quests. Or I see an LFM for Misery's peak....but I have to go do five quests before I can join them.

I can only imagine the trouble the new guys are having.


And person afer person wanting to multi-class to Rogue.....just because they could not open chest somewhere.

I know that they are not missing anything. I have long since lost any interst in what I might pull from any chest under lvl 20 on a +2 loot weekend... but they haven't!

They are brand new and still think that chest has something really good in it.
So they think they need to multiclass.

I just see all these things and I though it must turn off new players.

I had two friends who tried DDO without telling me till after they had deleted the game and decided they didn't like it. One of them because we didn't want to group with strangers.

I just though we should try to make the game more new guy friendly. But it seems at least two new guys who posted here say it is fine.....so I guess I was wrong.

I don't want the game easier....i just want it friendlier to the new guy. (I want the players friendlier to the new guys too)

I'm the guy who goes jopins a group doing Kobold Assault on elite with my lvl 2 Rgr! lol
I jump into Proof is in the Posion without hesitation ot Freshen the Air! (now I remember.)

I love a challenge, I do things for no reward, just because I haven't done them. or done them often.

I don't want the game dumbed down.

But I want new players to feel comfortible too.
I don't want them to reroll or feel like they ruined a char.
And if they want to solo, I think they should have the opertunity....with any class. And feel like their char is a good one.

Guess it needs more thought for a real answer though...and guess it's not as big a problem as I thought.
:o

thebrute7
06-19-2010, 10:50 PM
I have to say that new players need to be told that the game is not solo oriented. When I first started 2 months ago I tried to solo and was successful up to market, at that point either A) you are a vet with some twink gear and know what you are doing or B) you get in groups. D&D is designed around a four person group (Rogue, Cleric, Fighter, Wizard) . That's how it should be and good lord I hope that DDO never deviates from that, in my opinion if you want a soloable game go play something else, DDO is not a soloers game.

I am sorry if that seems harsh, but I have to say it like I see it. (and I am a new player)
I hate seeing Turbine cater to players who are new and aren't even trying to learn. When I started I read the forums, used the wiki, planned out a build, etc. If they aren't willing to learn don't dumb it down for them, let them go to an easier game.

Bunker
06-19-2010, 11:01 PM
OP: I guess I don't follow wha tyou are asking. Are you saying that the game is not solo freindly?

And you think the game shoudl cater EVEN more to new players who want to solo?

Did you notice the addition of dungeon scaling a LONG whle back?

Have you noticed the introduction of "casual" mode for quests?

-Bunk

P.S. Talon, one other thing. Whatever credit you had as a vet player is now and forever lost. :D

knightgf
06-19-2010, 11:05 PM
In my opinion, I feel that every player should 'have' the option to solo, for those times when its hard to get a group or just dont want to party with others, but yet at the same time, grouping with others should still yield the top rewards in this game. A good example would be the Vale of Twilight. If you want to solo, thats fine! Just go out into the wilderness area, find some rare encounters, kill them and loot the chests!

Most classes that I know of should have some ability to solo the monsters; you might not get them all, but out of 18 rare encounters, one of them is capable of being slayed by you. You'll still get XP and loot, just not as much as you would get if you had been in a group. On the other hand, if you join a group, you can participate in the quests to get more XP and some better loot, in theory, or you could group in the wilderness to progress faster and potentally gain more XP and loot. You can also partake in the raid if you quality to get even better loot, and almost 99% of the time, you'll do it enough to soak up all the XP from the optionals in the quest.

The point is, I understand that you wish to have a character that has more 'solo' capabilities, and to be fair, it is possible! However, dumbing down Korthos even more is not a good idea. Most players consider Korthos to be an easy area, and some might even complain that now, its too easy. If you would like a start in the right direction for being able to 'solo', try reading through the forums a little. Maybe do a google search on "DDO solo builds", and make a request on the classes section on the forums for a solo build. I must warn you though: Soloing will be a bit difficult, and not all quests/raids can be soloed.

But remember: It is possible to solo content in this game, just don't expect to solo everything and don't expect the difficulty to be the same difficulty you experienced when you participate in content you have completed by yourself.

azrael4h
06-20-2010, 09:15 AM
But whay should Rogues be the only class who can solo?

Every class can solo Korthos and Harbor easily. In fact, I have had no issues soloing the F2P quests in the Market or any of the houses, though by the time I get around to them I'm usually running a level over. I've ran a Elf Sorc up to 4 without Master's Touch and a Great Axe or too terrible difficulty, back when all I had was 28pt builds. Rerolled her solely because I wanted the extra CON I could get off 32pt build.

If anything, there needs to be a quest in there that does require grouping (like the one in Necro, can't think of the name off hand. Can't ever find a group for it either, and most of my guild doesn't have that series) in Korthos or the Harbor. One that can not be completed solo, and gives good player experience and knowledge in working with a team. That might help knock down some of the horrendously bad pugs I run across.

Though I like the idea of making quests have multiple routes, depending on party makeup, with the solo route being hardest of all. I'd love to solo that kind of quest.

Oh, and I like Proof is in the Poison. Please don't ruin it and dumb it down. It's something I make a point of running solo with all my characters. Unlike most of the early-level stuff, it's an actual challenge.

Falco_Easts
06-20-2010, 10:50 PM
OP I understand where you are coming from but don't quite agree with where you are going. I agree that if Turbine neglects solo play they are missing out on a large portion of potentional players BUT, I don't think the game needs to be made any easier. It has already been taken down enough.

Some alternate idea's.
Add sandbags to the general vendor. These can be placed on a preasure plate to replace the need for another person in some quests. (*Suggested in another thread, not sure who's idea).
In Korthos quests on casual & normal only allow a "skeleton key" to drop AFTER the boss is dead. When you click on it it will pop up a warning "Warning, picking up this key will result in a -15% XP Penalty. Turbine strongly reconmends grouping in future if you wish to access all area's of dungeons. This key will open all locks and act as a 'Detect Secret Doors' Spell".

samthedagger
06-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Disagree with the OP COMPLETELY. But then again I remember when I first logged into DDO in 2006 and you really COULDN'T solo. Korthos is easy to solo with any class/race combination. Heck you could be a 10 Str fighter gimp and probably still manage, up to elite even. The secret doors and locked chest are optional, and they aren't even that great in comparison. The one secret door that isn't optional anyone can find, and even if you can't there is a cask you can use to open it. It seems to me the OP doesn't realize that rogues are exactly what he is asking for. They are helpful, but not necessary. You can complete every quest without them. All they do is help you bypass traps a bit more easily, but all the Korthos traps can be side-stepped and avoided anyway. And like I said, none of the chests are that great. Starter pots of HLW drop all over the place and they even work as emergency healing in Korthos since no one has higher than CLW anyway.

What Korthos needs is a tutorial on how to use the Social Panel. Even at level 15, I often find people handing me the star because they don't know how to use the Social Panel. They get frustrated and say "NM u do it." It's really not that hard to use if you take maybe 10 minutes to sit down and examine the options. Maybe I'll write a guide to using the Social Panel on the Guides forums. And filling a group in Korthos is easy on any server. Sure, you get a lot of newbies. But what did you expect in Korthos? At least the quests aren't so hard one newbie can easily screw it up.

I have no desire for this game to be any more solo friendly. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I will never understand people who log in to an MMO for the first time and say "I think I'll try to solo this game."

Slihthinden
06-20-2010, 11:09 PM
I think the one area that agree with the OP is with the fact that in a dungeon where there is a locked door/chest - someone in said dungeon should have a key. Go ahead and put it in a hard to get to area with a ton of guards - but you should not "need" any one class to get to all loots or areas in a dungeon. Like the one quest (I cannot remember the name) - labeled a "very long" mid-level quest - has 2 shrines in the whole dungeon - and both are behind locked doors - talk about a stupid idea - yes with enuff pots and such is an easy quest, but come on, there should be some other way to get in there than to have a rogue along.

I love rogues and have a couple, but I play them for fun and made them originally because I hate not completing everything in a quest at least once. I should not need one specific class to fulfill that part.

Just saying,

Slihthinden

samthedagger
06-20-2010, 11:11 PM
Sometimes keys get lost, eaten by the gelatinous cube, etc. No, I'm happy with keyless locks in dungeons.

Slihthinden
06-21-2010, 03:59 AM
Aye, true, keys do get lost - but what good, honest adventurer is going to leave an unopened treasure chest in his wake? I know that I for one, would at the very least bash the damn thing open to get whatever is inside - even if that meant there was a good chance i would destroy it.

but maybe that's just me :D

Slihthinden

petegunn
06-21-2010, 04:39 AM
If the low level game got any easier it would be hilarious to see from GH onwards, especially the shroud (BOOM BOOM WIPE)!

Grecan
06-21-2010, 04:40 AM
The game is very solo-friendly, except a small percentage of cases.

It's so much solo-friendly that one can reach level 20 soloing all the time.

It's so much solo-friendly that in many cases i prefer to solo a quest than do it with a party
(that depends mostly on the people consisting the party)

It's just not so much stupid/arrogant/incompetent friendly...

DoctorWhofan
06-21-2010, 04:57 AM
I probably should just quit while I'm a behind but I thought I should respond to your comments at least.

I've been trying to put you out of a job for years... :D

And I don't care. But that is YOU and I am ME.

I actually do not like soloing, except when I'm feeling especially anti-social.

I solo alot. Clerics are pretty good at soloing...even mine.

I usually take the stance that the game should not be soloable or cattered to soloers.

Good, cuz you had me scared for a moment.

But I see post after post by people wanting to solo their way through DDO. Just thought that if a high enough percentage of new guys want it, we should help them.

No, DnD is a group game, this game is a group game. Yes you can solo, but it is much harder. 1 person can find all the easter eggs, but 6 can find them faster and alot of time more effiencant than the one.

I actually did exactly what I see many new player saying they want to do....I tried to solo at first....off and on. I came to my first lock and trap and decided to multi-class to Rogue.

Who says you need all the chests? That is you, choosing to solo. And that player. I am a loot *ahem* as much as the next guy, but skipping chest is the price you pay soloing. It's give and take. You cannot have everything. Barbarians cannot heal without BUYING pots, wasting a SKILL POINTS into UMD and CHA stat points too. On the flip side they can do massive damage. A barb anda cleric can do alot more alot faster than one person, which is the truth.

I had a little more insight than others I would like to think. I actually had a plan (after the fact anyway)...a plan based on a cap of 10, and not anticipating changes and enhancments....etc. But a plan none the less.

You know I hate roles, and I hate waiting for clerics.....or any other class.

Yes you do, but without those roles, the AVERAGE player cannot make it through the game. We got this knowledge via experiance and i would bet half the time we are successful is for that knowledge, rather than class/race/equipment. The average new person doesn't ahve that knowledge and there is alot more of them than experiance. TO achieve knowledge, they need to know how the classes work. They need to be the sterotype, at least for the first time around. Again, groups of average people can accomplish much.

Lowest Common Denominator. YOu cannot put them in their shoes because you haven't thought like a new player for years. I can. Because I never stopped thinking like a new player.

I join lots of in-experianced PUGs and find myself in groups like STK elite....with no rogue. I don't want to tell anyone we can't do it without a rogue, or tell someone they need to drop...etc. But I know darn well we will not get past the Acid trap...let alone the fire traps.

They don't need a rogue, they need luck, resist and protection. Which is sad, because it's the oppisete of what you think: THE GAME DOESN"T REVOLVE AROUND TRAPS.

That's inexperiance talking. Turbine already nerfed for soloing by making the rogue class pretty much optional when it comes to traps. Most ofthe time, I don't even have a rogue in my party, not because I snub them, but because I don't look for them.

I think Gwylan's Stand is the only one of the low level quests I activally look for a rogue.

I can throw money at most problems to get by without a cleric.... But I can't complete certain quests without disabling certain traps.

Seee above. I can throw money around to get around traps too.

Yes sometimes you can get by them with great twitch skills ot a ton of HPs. But the whole party cannot.

COrrect, this is why a balanced party is good for new players.

You are right in some ways about me. Although I did take a Cleric to 20, (but I never took her in the Shroud or several other raids) I dislike playing a char that cannot do everthing.

TO each their own

Any char I play that does not have evasion feels real handicapped...especially at traps.
Any char that cannot jump over an enemies head to get away when surrounded. Any char that has no effective ranged attack.
Not being able to self heal or self buff.

Or I've been in quests where I played a caster and used CC spells and it was easy. Then I go in the same quest on my cleric and watch a bunch of idiots who can't stay alive 2 seconds.....or on a Ftr and die myself...knowing full well that when I was playing a caster no one hardly got hurt at all.

Most of the great soloers choose WF casters....so that they do not have to rely on anyone else.

In my case it's similar, I do not want to have to rely on anyone else.

But in this post's case, I was responding forum posts from new players wanting to solo... some of thos enew players are very high level still trying to solo.

And responding to numerous questions in chat.

And the ever present advice to reroll. The advice that the paths are useless and what i though would make new players turned off to the game.

My own feelings about Korthos. I can solo them, but would prefer the fun of a group. But if I join an LFM for like "korthos elite" guaranteed they have already done the first one without me and soon they will do Colaberator and I will not be on the quest.
And although I am smart enough to know to enter colaborator even though I am not on, the next stpe will be outsode the gate where I cannot join them until I do at least two more quests. Or I see an LFM for Misery's peak....but I have to go do five quests before I can join them.

make your own group. You know that!

I can only imagine the trouble the new guys are having.

Actually alot less than you think.


And person afer person wanting to multi-class to Rogue.....just because they could not open chest somewhere.

Which is stupid. Like taking cleric on a Fighter build, with an 8 WIS.

I know that they are not missing anything. I have long since lost any interst in what I might pull from any chest under lvl 20 on a +2 loot weekend... but they haven't!

THere you have it. New players DO want all the chests they want to see everything. THey hear us tell about the Shroud and crafting and try to hurry there.

They are brand new and still think that chest has something really good in it.
So they think they need to multiclass.

THen it becomes a lesson. Or they be smart and ask first. And I can tell you for a fact that many people, both old and new, in Korthos chat would say "DON'T MULTICLASS unless you are built for it."

I just see all these things and I though it must turn off new players.

Again, you are not seeing the whole picture. They are trying jsut to get the hang of the game.

I had two friends who tried DDO without telling me till after they had deleted the game and decided they didn't like it. One of them because we didn't want to group with strangers.

THey were your friends. We vets know that this game is NOT for the shy. You should have warned him of that.

I just though we should try to make the game more new guy friendly. But it seems at least two new guys who posted here say it is fine.....so I guess I was wrong.

Perception. Sorry my friend, you spend too much at the high levels, which is fine, but you lost the feel of the low levels. ME, I was always building and re rolling clerics and always PuGging, even when Mod 9 came out, I never lost touch. But that is my playstyle.

I don't want the game easier....i just want it friendlier to the new guy. (I want the players friendlier to the new guys too)

They are. But you can only take so much "How do I show my cape" every 30 seconds.

I'm the guy who goes jopins a group doing Kobold Assault on elite with my lvl 2 Rgr! lol
I jump into Proof is in the Posion without hesitation ot Freshen the Air! (now I remember.)

Again, you CAN. I can't nor would do it if I could.

I love a challenge, I do things for no reward, just because I haven't done them. or done them often.

Hello? TS anyone? :D

I don't want the game dumbed down.

But I want new players to feel comfortible too.
I don't want them to reroll or feel like they ruined a char.
And if they want to solo, I think they should have the opertunity....with any class. And feel like their char is a good one.

Guess it needs more thought for a real answer though...and guess it's not as big a problem as I thought.
:o


Look, not to be mean or anything, you have beaten byyour own greatness. You are so good at these certain builds and certain ways of playing, you have put blinders up. I do it too with clerics. So I have a monk, on purpose, and a caster, and a fighter (no barb...I draw the line at not able to heal even with pots.) and so on, not because I am any good at them, but because to remind me what melee and arcane casters feel like. Heck I have a Virtuoso bard just to be different!

All I can say is this: I have learn much PuGging these last 10 months...Lowest common denominator, balanced parties, small words, and patience is a virtue. I experiance this every time i log in, rarely raiding.

Honestly, a perceptive change helps, but you may be too ingrained in your ways to change. And you know, that's fine. You are playing to have fun. As we say, if it stops being fun, stop playing.

I (among others) watch the new players, and trust me, it isn;t as bad as the loud whiney few who post on the forums.

Trold200
06-21-2010, 05:44 AM
If all things in life came easy, then what would there be to achieve? :D

Those "problems" of what you speak is the reason im new to DDO and no longer a WoW player as the hardest thing to achieve, was not to get a goldspammer tell. :p

geoffhanna
06-21-2010, 06:32 AM
Hi Talon!

One part of your post I do endorse: the snowy side/sunny side thing in Korthos is (IMHO) backfiring. Anything that makes it harder to group in Korthos is a mistake. And it only exists in that one place, so its not like it is teaching newbies some key game mechanic.

It is very cool when you teleport back from Misery's Peak and now the sun is out; it feels very heroic to know that you did that. Plus the snow is very pretty.

But the group issue is not intuitive and whatever problem it is supposed to help is outweighed by the inconvenience and frustration of how it works. If my vote matters on this I definitely vote to modify snowy/sunny Korthos so that it does not prevent grouping, or just scrap it altogether.