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Boromirs
06-17-2010, 05:25 PM
Bastard swords damage vs. Dwarven Axe.

Say you have an average of 100 damage with both Bastard sword and dwarven axe non-crit. The damages over time come out to be

[100 x.90] + [200 x .10] = 110 average damage over time for Bastard Sword

[100 x .95] + [300 x .05] = 110 avg dam, and with +2/+2Dwarven enhancements come out to be greater then 110 damage.

This means when I use up one feat to buy Bastard sword I will be doing less damage then when I don't use any feats and pick up a dwarven axe. That is LESS damage, not even equal.

The situation becomes worse and worse for the bastard sword as the fighter picks up kensai III (crit range increased by 1) or the barb frenzies (crit range increases).

So how does this make sense? When I pay more I get less and when I pay less I get more?

Maybe Bastard Sword is called Bastard for a reason?

tkneip1874
06-17-2010, 05:28 PM
it is free for dwarves and therefore if you make a dw warrior, you want to keep da. however what are the number difference on say a human where you have to take exotic wp to gain use of either?

Boromirs
06-17-2010, 05:33 PM
it is free for dwarves and therefore if you make a dw warrior, you want to keep da. however what are the number difference on say a human where you have to take exotic wp to gain use of either?

Thats what Im saying. If you are a human you can use both BUT you will be doing less damage with Bastard sword with no apparent trade off/benefit. And again if you are a dwarf you will be getting MORE damage and it's all FREE.
Plus, dwarves have shield enhancements which makes it ideal for use with DA (with the upcoming glancing blow changes in U5).

This is a clear and cut issue, Bastard swords need some apparent benefit to it's use or it'll just stay the discarded weapon it is.

Chai
06-17-2010, 05:37 PM
Bastard swords damage vs. Dwarven Axe.

Say you have an average of 100 damage with both Bastard sword and dwarven axe non-crit. The damages over time come out to be

[100 x.90] + [200 x .10] = 110 average damage over time for Bastard Sword

[100 x .95] + [300 x .05] = 110 avg dam, and with +2/+2Dwarven enhancements come out to be greater then 110 damage.

This means when I use up one feat to buy Bastard sword I will be doing less damage then when I don't use any feats and pick up a dwarven axe. That is LESS damage, not even equal.

The situation becomes worse and worse for the bastard sword as the fighter picks up kensai III (crit range increased by 1).

So how does this make sense? When I pay more I get less and when I pay less I get more?

Maybe Bastard Sword is called Bastard for a reason?

This is why they raised the crit multiplier on khopesh, and broke the game on weapon choices while doing so.

The big advantage with bastard sword in PnP is that it can be used with 2 hands or 1. Two handed use gaines all of the benefits of said use (str x1.5 on damage, double power attack damage etc.). Without having this type of mechanic in the game, bastard sword is sub par statistically compared with other weapons.

Khopesh in PnP is a x2 multiplier which basically makes it a long sword, but in PnP it has a bonus to trip. Turbine gave it a x3 crit multiplier in DDO to justify the feat investment, and the min maxers flock to it like sheep. The same investment, 1 feat, gets you the best one hander in the game, in most situations.

J1NG
06-17-2010, 05:48 PM
I was going to do this parody of this discussion of the Bastard Sword, South Park style. But then thought... You guys probably have heard it a million times already. :p

J1NG

Boromirs
06-17-2010, 06:36 PM
If they make it so you get half the strength damage and half the power attack bonus of a standard THF weapon it would make more sense to spend the feat for Bastard sword, as of now there is no point. Can a dev chime in and verify this, a simple "No, you are wrong!" or a "Yes, you are right!" will quickly resolve the issue.

SisAmethyst
06-17-2010, 07:02 PM
Thats what Im saying. If you are a human you can use both BUT you will be doing less damage with Bastard sword with no apparent trade off/benefit. And again if you are a dwarf you will be getting MORE damage and it's all FREE.
Plus, dwarves have shield enhancements which makes it ideal for use with DA (with the upcoming glancing blow changes in U5).

This is a clear and cut issue, Bastard swords need some apparent benefit to it's use or it'll just stay the discarded weapon it is.

Mmhhhh ... you should calculate in the crit multiplier, then you would see that nothing changes. A Human on the other side get a free bonus Feat, so the coast for the feat for Dwarv and Human are equal I also not fully understand how you calculate the values. The average base damage of a BS and DA including crits is 6.05

So if you want to do it fine the formula should look like:

Bastard Sword: 1d10 (19-20)/x2
(5.5*0.90) + (5.5*0.10*2) = 4.95 + 1.1 = 6.05
For 100 hits this is a damage of 100*6.05 = 605

Dwarven Axe: 1d10 (20)/x3
(5.5*0.95) + (5.5*0.05*3) = 5.225 + 0.825 = 6.05
For 100 hits this is a damage of 100*6.05 = 605

A Dwarv indeed get a Bonus as he get the Feat and Enhancement lines there for free, so except for the Dwarv from this point both are absolutely equal. So yes, if you are a Dwarv a DA is superior to a BS but I am not sure how the crit range of a Kensai works, or if it even stag with the Feat improved critical which most fighters take anyway. So if you increase the crit range (e.g. due to Keen/Improved Crit on the weapon) indeed the values will change but the outcome is still the same as Keen just double the crit range (19-20->17-20, 20->19-20).

BS: (5.5*0.80) + (5.5*0.20*2) = 4.4 + 2.2 = 6.6

DA: (5.5*0.90) + (5.5*0.10*3) = 4.95 + 1.65 = 6.6

if we calculate in a +6 Seeker (x time the crit mutliplier) we get an advantage for the BS

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*2) = 4.95 + 2.3 = 7.25

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.95) + ((5.5+6)*0.05*3) = 5.225 + 1.725 = 6.95

And if Kensai add a plain +1 to the crit range then it give a slight advantage for the DA

Seeker +6 + Kensai BS: (5.5*0.85) + ((5.5+6)*0.15*2) = 4.675 + 3.45 = 8.125

Seeker +6 + Kensai DA: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*3) = 4.95 + 3.45 = 8.4

But for me the question is, why you want to have BS and DS to be equal in all circumstances? I mean a Greataxe is doing different damage then a dagger, that is why I not use Daggers but a Greataxe. DA get the racial benefit, and the only other possible way to get that benefit is due to a Deitie as I am not aware of any race that has a bastard Sword as a Racial Weapon.

After checking there are Deities that have Favored Weapons, and for a Bastard Sword this are: Helm (The Watcher, the Vigilant One), Kelemvor (Lord of the Dead, Judge of the Damned) , Eilistraee (The Dark Maiden, Lady of the Dance), and Finder Wyvernspur (The Nameless Bard) and all of them are chaotic or neutral so they wont work for a Paladin. But as this are Forgotten Realms Deities they may probably not exist in the Eberron campaign and I not know all of their deities.

But it sounds you seek for a justify to improve BS but they have been already pimped over the rules of D&D doing glancing blows and I can't see a reason to pimp them even more.

So either we finally get the Deities for the Favoured Souls, Clerics and Paladins. Or the only think I can think of in DDO is an item or Weapon that itself include the Weapon Proficiency like we have already items that give Toughness of Mobility Feats. Or add Enhancements that are anyway not part of the standard D&D to be able to increase the usability of BS. Just that I guess we have those Enhancements for the Fighter already with the only point that they increase the usability of all weapons in the same way, alas the DA is again ahead of the BS.

Anyway, an exotic Weapon feat is nearly always a waste of a Feat, but IF I already take that Feat than I take the weapon where I get the biggest benefit from. For Dwarves this may be a DA and for all others it is the Khopesh. The Bastard Sword can then be used by the Role Players who not care :D

BTW: For people who like to know an easy way to calculate the average of a dice like 1d20

1+ 2+ 3...+ 9+10
20+19+18+...+11
---------------------------------
20+20+20+...+20+10

10*20+10=210

and for the average divided by 20=10.5

PS: please correct me if I am wrong, its already to late at night for math :)

SisAmethyst
06-17-2010, 07:07 PM
Khopesh in PnP is a x2 multiplier which basically makes it a long sword, but in PnP it has a bonus to trip. Turbine gave it a x3 crit multiplier in DDO to justify the feat investment, and the min maxers flock to it like sheep. The same investment, 1 feat, gets you the best one hander in the game, in most situations.

I guess the reason for the x3 multiplier is that that a Khopesh not only has a improvement to Trip but is a 'brutal' weapon, which means it get additional to the existing crit range a bonus on the crit. As this brutal Bonus is a strange additional role of a dice its easier to handle it with increase of the multiplier. So yes, even in the PnP world a Khopesh is ahead ;)

Angelus_dead
06-17-2010, 07:16 PM
Hi.

1. The relationship between Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe is not pertinent to the Lammania server.

2. Obviously characters with free proficiency in Dwarven Axe would not and should not be attracted to Bastard Sword.

3. Characters without existing Dwarven Axe proficiency will do more damage with Bastard Sword, as a Seeker6 item inflicts 4*12=48 damage instead of 2*18=36.

4. A Kensei would get more damage from Dwarven Axe than Bastard, because 18-20/x3 beats 16-20/x2, but that is irrelevant because the Kensei wouldn't consider Bastard Sword anyhow. His onehand weapon would be khopesh, pick, or racial-bonus.

5. The Frenzied Berserker does not get critical range.

Boromirs
06-17-2010, 07:57 PM
Hi.

1. The relationship between Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe is not pertinent to the Lammania server.

2. Obviously characters with free proficiency in Dwarven Axe would not and should not be attracted to Bastard Sword.

3. Characters without existing Dwarven Axe proficiency will do more damage with Bastard Sword, as a Seeker6 item inflicts 4*12=48 damage instead of 2*18=36.

4. A Kensei would get more damage from Dwarven Axe than Bastard, because 18-20/x3 beats 16-20/x2, but that is irrelevant because the Kensei wouldn't consider Bastard Sword anyhow. His onehand weapon would be khopesh, pick, or racial-bonus.

5. The Frenzied Berserker does not get critical range.

1.) It is due to the U5 changes for glancing blows. Since now people who are interested in S&B will need to choose between these two weapons, its not all about TWF TWF TWF and THF.

2.) The point is DA has a clear cut advantage over BS, in that it does more damage due to the dwarven enhancement line and coupled with Kensei or Barbo crit range enhancements.

3.) Relative to what? The choices are DA or BS, nothing else. DA will win more if you tack on seeker.

4.) Righto, but a shield using Kensei will definetly choose DA (and probably switch his race to dwarf for the extra damage and to hit). Hence the problem, are the only S&B people going to be all dwarves?

5.) Yes frenzy berserkers do indeed get an increase to crit range. I think we got confused between Raging giving crit range increases and frenzy giving crit range increases, since Frenzy berserker is the only pre line for barbs I called them frenzy berserkers.

SisAmethyst
06-17-2010, 08:31 PM
...
3.) Relative to what? The choices are DA or BS, nothing else. DA will win more if you tack on seeker.
...

had to run the numbers for myself see above but from the DDO wiki:

Seeker: This property provides an enhancement bonus to confirm critical hits and Critical Hit Damage. A +10 Seeker Item will add +10 to your Confirm Critical roll and +10 (Times your Critical Multiplier)to your Critical Damage. Seeker Items and Weapons will affect the weapon with the effect as well as the weapon in your Opposite hand if Dual Wielding.

So as in the correction above a plain BS with +6 profit more then a DA +6 from the Seeker

Boromirs
06-17-2010, 09:10 PM
had to run the numbers for myself see above but from the DDO wiki:

Seeker: This property provides an enhancement bonus to confirm critical hits and Critical Hit Damage. A +10 Seeker Item will add +10 to your Confirm Critical roll and +10 (Times your Critical Multiplier)to your Critical Damage. Seeker Items and Weapons will affect the weapon with the effect as well as the weapon in your Opposite hand if Dual Wielding.

So as in the correction above a plain BS with +6 profit more then a DA +6 from the Seeker

You mean benefit the DA more... x3 = 18 more damage, greater chance for confirm critical means more crits for the x3.

SisAmethyst
06-17-2010, 09:15 PM
You mean benefit the DA more... x3 = 18 more damage, greater chance for confirm critical means more crits for the x3.

No, I needed to run the numbers for myself to see it but:

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*2) = 4.95 + 2.3 = 7.25

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.95) + ((5.5+6)*0.05*3) = 5.225 + 1.725 = 6.95

or in other words '10% crit range * 2' = 0.20 is bigger then '5% crit range * 3' = 0.15

Boromirs
06-17-2010, 09:19 PM
No, I needed to run the numbers for myself to see it but:

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*2) = 4.95 + 2.3 = 7.25

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.95) + ((5.5+6)*0.05*3) = 5.225 + 1.725 = 6.95

or in other words '10% crit range * 2' = 0.20 is bigger then '5% crit range * 3' = 0.15

intriguing wonder if that small damage diff evens out the dwarven racial enhancements...

SisAmethyst
06-17-2010, 09:30 PM
intriguing wonder if that small damage diff evens out the dwarven racial enhancements...

Well, the greater the Seeker, the greater the difference, as for Seeker +10

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+10)*0.10*2) = 4.95 + 3.1 = 8.05

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.95) + ((5.5+10)*0.05*3) = 5.225 + 2.325 = 7.55

However you most of the time not use a naked weapon but have additional effects that are added before and after the multiplier so difficult to calculate individually. In case Kensai really add +1 to the plain Crit Range, or if you have a hold or paralyzed Monster (auto crit) the benefit swap over to the DA.

lord_of_rage
06-17-2010, 09:45 PM
1.) It is due to the U5 changes for glancing blows. Since now people who are interested in S&B will need to choose between these two weapons, its not all about TWF TWF TWF and THF.

2.) The point is DA has a clear cut advantage over BS, in that it does more damage due to the dwarven enhancement line and coupled with Kensei or Barbo crit range enhancements.

3.) Relative to what? The choices are DA or BS, nothing else. DA will win more if you tack on seeker.

4.) Righto, but a shield using Kensei will definetly choose DA (and probably switch his race to dwarf for the extra damage and to hit). Hence the problem, are the only S&B people going to be all dwarves?

5.) Yes frenzy berserkers do indeed get an increase to crit range. I think we got confused between Raging giving crit range increases and frenzy giving crit range increases, since Frenzy berserker is the only pre line for barbs I called them frenzy berserkers.


THF absolutly factors into this discussion. You have to take the THF feats to increase glancing blow damage. So there is absolutly no reason to not use a THF weapon in dps situations. Dwarves really luck out here. Dwarven axes will produce solid damage with a shield,and the +2 damage also applies to great axes. Why would a kenasi go S&B anyway? He wont get the ac that a SD will. No FBs get an increase to their crit modifier not crit range. Crit rage was removed in favor of FB.

You are biased twords S&B we understand that. You have made that perfectly clear. But again you really should build in a dps option.

Gornin
06-17-2010, 10:27 PM
Meh, my fighter uses Basties, and does just fine. Is he max DPS, no, but then I don't care.

None of my toons have "accepted" optimum choices, and I get into any party I try for, and am quite effective. Heck, my Elven Wizard is an AA, just for the halibut, and she is fun and effective.

I think people need to stop gaming the system so damn much. Not meant as a slam on anyone, but it is not THAT big a deal. Not nearly as big a deal as the speed and other combat nerfs.

SteeleTrueheart
06-17-2010, 11:08 PM
IC is is a must have feat so it becomes.

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.80) + ((5.5+6)*0.20*2) = 4.4 + 4.6 = 9

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*3) = 4.95 + 3.45 = 8.4


However since bursts etc also happen 'on-crit' the weapon that does more crits is favoured over weapons that have a higher crit multiplier in this case.

As has already been stated, when a mob is held/stunned or otherwise in an autocrit state the crit multiplier weapon is much more effective. Though if you find yourself in that situation picks would be awesome. Or just bring out a THF weapon.

Personally I find them so close I wouldn't really make a fuss over it so much. Dwarves = DA because it's free. Everyone else can pick what they want.

R0cksteady
06-17-2010, 11:21 PM
IC is is a must have feat so it becomes.

Seeker +6 BS: (5.5*0.80) + ((5.5+6)*0.20*2) = 4.4 + 4.6 = 9

Seeker +6 DA: (5.5*0.90) + ((5.5+6)*0.10*3) = 4.95 + 3.45 = 8.4


However since bursts etc also happen 'on-crit' the weapon that does more crits is favoured over weapons that have a higher crit multiplier in this case.

As has already been stated, when a mob is held/stunned or otherwise in an autocrit state the crit multiplier weapon is much more effective. Though if you find yourself in that situation picks would be awesome. Or just bring out a THF weapon.

Personally I find them so close I wouldn't really make a fuss over it so much. Dwarves = DA because it's free. Everyone else can pick what they want.

You're wrong about effects that happen on crit doing more damage on a wider crit range than on a higher multiplier. That's adjusted to balance. Burst damage on a X3 does twice as much damage as burst damage on a X2, but half as often. It effects both the exact same. For instance shocking burst will do 1d10 on a X2 multiplier or 2d10 on a X3 multiplier.

BUT seeker damage really will benefit BS more than DA. Doing twice as many crits and doing 12 damage as opposed to half as many crits and only 18 extra damage. For them to be equal it would have to do 24. And saying that it will give you more crits is just wrong, considering any fighter, barbarian, Paladin or Ranger should be confirming every crit they roll.

Angelus_dead
06-18-2010, 01:54 AM
You're wrong about effects that happen on crit doing more damage on a wider crit range than on a higher multiplier. That's adjusted to balance. Burst damage on a X3 does twice as much damage as burst damage on a X2, but half as often. It effects both the exact same. For instance shocking burst will do 1d10 on a X2 multiplier or 2d10 on a X3 multiplier.
Incorrect. Try Holy Burst on a rapier and then on a pick.

Angelus_dead
06-18-2010, 01:57 AM
1.) It is due to the U5 changes for glancing blows...
2.) The point is DA has a clear cut advantage over BS, in that it does more damage due to the dwarven enhancement line and coupled with Kensei or Barbo crit range enhancements.
3.) Relative to what? The choices are DA or BS, nothing else. DA will win more if you tack on seeker.
4.) Righto, but a shield using Kensei will definetly choose DA (and probably switch his race to dwarf for the
5.) Yes frenzy berserkers do indeed get an increase to crit range. I think we got confused between Raging
1. That does not make sense.
2. As was already explained, that does not make sense.
3. Wrong, as was already explained.
4. A shield-using Kensei would not make sense.
5. Wrong, as was already explained.

R0cksteady
06-18-2010, 02:00 AM
Incorrect. Try Holy Burst on a rapier and then on a pick.

I'm directly comparing X2 19-20 with X3 20. Obviously they wont ALL be equally balanced.

Megaton_Samurai
06-18-2010, 07:17 PM
No one has compared this new, glancing BS damage with a Khopesh so here goes. Assuming you take all the THF feats which will makes your glancing blows deal ~1/3 of your main attack and imp. crit:

Bastard Sword
In 20 swings you'd get glancing blows on half the swings equating to 10*(1/3rd base damage) or ~3.3*base in extra damage

Khopesh
In 20 swings you'd get your base damage applied 4 times beyond BS because of it's increased crit multiplier, which equates to 4*base in extra damage. This gets even more out of whack if you can increase your threat range (Kensai III) or have a seeker bonus and bursting effects.

So for 3 feats you Bastard Sword will do:

~3% less damage than khopesh against all critable mobs, assuming no seeker/bursting or Kensai III

~5% more damage than a khopesh against 50% fort mobs, assuming no seeker/bursting or Kensai III

~15% more damage than a khopesh against crit immune mobs


I have no idea on the proc rate for effects on glancing blows and I didn't factor in the big bump in greensteel damage for BS over khopesh, so those are to more factors in favor of the BS.

R0cksteady
06-18-2010, 09:45 PM
No one has compared this new, glancing BS damage with a Khopesh so here goes. Assuming you take all the THF feats which will makes your glancing blows deal ~1/3 of your main attack and imp. crit:

Bastard Sword
In 20 swings you'd get glancing blows on half the swings equating to 10*(1/3rd base damage) or ~3.3*base in extra damage

Khopesh
In 20 swings you'd get your base damage applied 4 times beyond BS because of it's increased crit multiplier, which equates to 4*base in extra damage. This gets even more out of whack if you can increase your threat range (Kensai III) or have a seeker bonus and bursting effects.

So for 3 feats you Bastard Sword will do:

~3% less damage than khopesh against all critable mobs, assuming no seeker/bursting or Kensai III

~5% more damage than a khopesh against 50% fort mobs, assuming no seeker/bursting or Kensai III

~15% more damage than a khopesh against crit immune mobs


I have no idea on the proc rate for effects on glancing blows and I didn't factor in the big bump in greensteel damage for BS over khopesh, so those are to more factors in favor of the BS.

Actually it has been compared, with a lot more information input and a lot more detail. And Kopesh out DPSed BS with splash damage until 75% fort.