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View Full Version : update 6 - remove hierlings to battle lag



Drfirewater79
06-14-2010, 11:50 AM
I dont understand ... they remove effectiveness of TWF in update 5 and claim it will "HELP" battle lag ... they remove monk and ranger attack speed for the same reason ....

why was the first step to nerf players rather then nerf obvious contributer "THE HIERLING"

While i too enjoy the use of summons and hierlings they always seem to be the major contributing factor to lag in ALL MMO's.

in COH almost no lag at all until they launched all these classes able to summon hundreds of pets ... (not that they had a ton of lag even with all the pets)

wouldnt it make more sense to add more ways to heal yourself effectively like full heal pots that dont stun you in battle ... and remove hierlings from the game ?

I think many of you are about to neg rep me ... (not that i care) but before you do ... think about it clearly ... with dungeon scaling and casual difficulty do you really need a hierling to solo?

is it really that hard to find a party for most missions (raids take forever still but hierlings cant go into raids) After about lvl 10 most people dont solo anyway ... very few and the ones that do generally dont NEED hierlings but take one anyway just in case ...

soloing used to be an achievement in DDO and now its the way we work ....

not that i mind if people solo .. .shoot i solo first three chests in gen point on hard with my dark monk as a way to reset the slayer area as a loot run .. but i dont take a hierling ...

not that i think everyone can do everything on every type of build nore should they .... but really it makes more sense to nerf something that makes sense ...

it makes sense that hierlings add to lag .. .more soloing means more instances .. .more hierlings mean more computer controled AI to deal with per instance ... plus teleporting hierling to you prolly adds to it too .. since DDO's worst lag started when they introduced teleporting mobs.

again its not that i dont like hierlings but it seems as though if we truly want to battle lag .. this is the first place it needs to happen ... not player side dps.

Cyr
06-14-2010, 12:00 PM
/signed

There is lots of evidence that hirelings add to the resource use of a single player. If DA was acceptable because of a single players resource use being larger then average and TWF nerf by the same logic then there is no reason why hirelings should be exempt.

Magusrex777
06-14-2010, 12:42 PM
I love hirelings. In many cases they are better than players. My wife and I run most dungeons with 2 of them so I hate the idea. We do not really have lag anywhere. I hear some raids are the only places they have lag why not just remove the raids instead of the hirelings? Seems like the same kind of suggestion. I am not being serious in case there is any doubt. Why do I like hirelings? My time is valuable, with their use I never wait I just play. If there is a LFM up for what I want to join we go, if not we use hirelings. We use them a high percentage of the time.

Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.

Rhysem
06-14-2010, 12:46 PM
in COH almost no lag at all until they launched all these classes able to summon hundreds of pets ... (not that they had a ton of lag even with all the pets)

You mean like the Fire Controllers at game launch who could summon around 12-15 imps, as opposed to the maximum long-duration* summons of ~8-10 now for Masterminds? Just sayin'.

*: Exempting Gang War, of course since that's short duration and long cooldown.

While we're at it why don't we just suggest they remove all the mobs. It is sure to fix the problem.

Drfirewater79
06-14-2010, 01:04 PM
I love hirelings. In many cases they are better than players. My wife and I run most dungeons with 2 of them so I hate the idea. We do not really have lag anywhere. I hear some raids are the only places they have lag why not just remove the raids instead of the hirelings? Seems like the same kind of suggestion. .

Its not quite the same ball park really .... you see the lag in raids is caused by over use of resources ....

as someone who pugs ALOT i understand what you are saying about hierlings at times being better then real players ... but that is the problem ...

hierlings make players lazy and at end game .... those same players who do nothing but eat up resources with hierlings cannot play in groups....

Hierlings dont help you learn group dynamics or strat that is required for end game success ... or raid success for that matter ...

raids fill a needed resource sync ... raids actually reduce lag cause its 12 people in one instance where soloing and short manning causes more lag 12 people in 12 instances filled with monsters.

origionally this game had the slogan friends dont let friends solo ... while it didnt work marketing wise (hence the addition of casual and solo difficulties over the years) it does make sense when figuring out lag ...

not to say we didnt have lag before hierlings that would be a lie ...

but never had lag like we do today ....

while small instances and solo'd misisons rarely if ever actually lag out themselves they cause higher lag draw on big parties and not just raids ...


Again i like hierlings myself ... but they need to go if they are ruining game play enjoyment for large groups and only helping small ones.

if it has come to nerfing players to battle problems that hierlings cause then its an obvious NEED to eliminate hierlings cause there will be a smaller group of people effected by the change....

if you and your wife two man missions ... you dont really need hierlings ... and if you did it without hierlings you would be learning skills that would help you in end game ,,, not to say you specifically need or dont already have those skills but to say there are hundreds of people at lvl 20 who dont know where to buy heal scrolls and dont know what areas have cure serious pots .....

if there was no hierling option these people wouldnt be such a burden on everyone else and there would be less noob hate ... cause they would learn the game better and faster .. .much like us vets had to ....




While we're at it why don't we just suggest they remove all the mobs. It is sure to fix the problem.

I did that as a joke already and got 4 neg rep for it lol .....

Zaodan
06-14-2010, 01:41 PM
/signed

If Dungeon Alerts "fixed" lag (because it removes AI from RAM), then removing Hirelings "fixes" lag, as it also removes AI from RAM.

krud
06-14-2010, 01:48 PM
/signed

They could always just add "angels on your shoulder" instead of hirelings. Instead of all the extra AI involved with an actual hireling, you just get their menu bar on your screen. All the benefits without the lag, or the feeling that you're walking your dog thru a quest :p

ArichValtrahn
06-14-2010, 01:52 PM
All this time and no one realized our Shroud lag wasnt caused by DPS, but by hirelings. Darnit.

Magusrex777
06-14-2010, 01:59 PM
Its not quite the same ball park really .... you see the lag in raids is caused by over use of resources ....

as someone who pugs ALOT i understand what you are saying about hierlings at times being better then real players ... but that is the problem ...

hierlings make players lazy and at end game .... those same players who do nothing but eat up resources with hierlings cannot play in groups....

Hierlings dont help you learn group dynamics or strat that is required for end game success ... or raid success for that matter ...

raids fill a needed resource sync ... raids actually reduce lag cause its 12 people in one instance where soloing and short manning causes more lag 12 people in 12 instances filled with monsters.

origionally this game had the slogan friends dont let friends solo ... while it didnt work marketing wise (hence the addition of casual and solo difficulties over the years) it does make sense when figuring out lag ...

not to say we didnt have lag before hierlings that would be a lie ...

but never had lag like we do today ....

while small instances and solo'd misisons rarely if ever actually lag out themselves they cause higher lag draw on big parties and not just raids ...


Again i like hierlings myself ... but they need to go if they are ruining game play enjoyment for large groups and only helping small ones.

if it has come to nerfing players to battle problems that hierlings cause then its an obvious NEED to eliminate hierlings cause there will be a smaller group of people effected by the change....

if you and your wife two man missions ... you dont really need hierlings ... and if you did it without hierlings you would be learning skills that would help you in end game ,,, not to say you specifically need or dont already have those skills but to say there are hundreds of people at lvl 20 who dont know where to buy heal scrolls and dont know what areas have cure serious pots .....

if there was no hierling option these people wouldnt be such a burden on everyone else and there would be less noob hate ... cause they would learn the game better and faster .. .much like us vets had to ....




I did that as a joke already and got 4 neg rep for it lol .....

I am not a burden on anyone. I use hirelings and I am sure I can play as well as anyone. There are no real skills necessary in this game, it is simple like very other MMO out there, press buttons at the right time and collect loot. Neither one of us wanted to play a healing class like one of us has in every MMO we have ever played. I enjoy the hirelings, you have to manage them so it is not set and forget. I have not negged you and will not. However, I have received much neg rep over the coarse of my posting, only one person ever admitted it to and that was WHEN I could not neg rep back. I have never whined about getting neg rep. They sell hirelings in the store so I am not too worried about your suggestion, although if I had to guess, you know it wont happen either.

Zaodan
06-14-2010, 02:04 PM
What causes more lag?

A. 6 people in 6 separate copies of the same quest, each with 1 or more hirelings
B. 6 people in a group, in 1 instance of the quest, with no hirelings.

The answer is definitely B.

Therefore, Hirelings cause lag.

My2Cents
06-14-2010, 02:07 PM
I think hirelings are an integral part of this game.

Because (for life reasons) I mostly solo, I cannot survive without hirelings. I'd like to see the ability to use TWO in-game (not gold seal) hirelings at the same time, it would save me a ton of TP and a ton of hassle. I would love to see even more hirelings.

The removal of hirelings would more than likely mean I could no longer effectively enjoy DDO.

I fail to see why one person with two hirelings would create any more "lag" or overhead than 3 real people.

Personally, I think the issue is one of data flow to the client, why is so much data coming, whats in it, and does the cap need to be raised (discussed in another thread here.)

.....remove hirelings...really...cant believe someone suggested it..it must be a sarcastic joke and I fell for it...my bad

krud
06-14-2010, 02:11 PM
I fail to see why one person with two hirelings would create any more "lag" or overhead than 3 real people.
You are replacing real people with hirelings in that analysis. To be fair it should be 3 people each with hirelings vs 3 people without hirelings.

Cyr
06-14-2010, 02:14 PM
We use them a high percentage of the time.

Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.

Mag you are the reason for lag :) Egats, one hireling per person and shortmanning the quest. That's a lot extra resources per person for the server to handle. At least you are not soloing with a hireling, because that is the worst case scenario :)

Zaodan
06-14-2010, 02:18 PM
Ramping up to 1200 players online:

Everyone solos: 1200 quests active, each with monster AI plus player actions, plus 1 (or more) hireling AI

vs.

Everyone groups: 200 quests active (or 100 raids, or a combo of the two), each with monster AI plus player actions, no hireling AI.

1200 quests vs 200 is dramatic to server resources and server-side lag.

More soloing = more lag.

Period.

Cyr
06-14-2010, 02:19 PM
I fail to see why one person with two hirelings would create any more "lag" or overhead than 3 real people.


Oh the issue is not 1 player + 2 hirelings uses more resources...it is that 3 people instead use much less per person. As the server capacity should be based upon real live people actually playing the game and not extra mobs made so that those people can use up more resources per person there is an argument to be made that hirelings are bad for the game in the same manner that 'zergers' used more resources and had to be nerfed and twf'ers used more resources and had to be nerfed.

It's only logical if you follow the line of reasoning that it be applied fairly to all styles of play. In fact, the ultimate lag fix would be for dungeon scaling to work in reverse where mobs actually got slighly easier when more people were in your party as this would minimize the server resource use per person.

Magusrex777
06-14-2010, 03:50 PM
I am not so certain I buy into your reasoning that hirelings cause more lag. As a general rule I experience zero lag. Very infrequently have I ever experienced any and I cannot exempt my connection. I have been told by people who raid certain raids very often that they have extreme lag when they have a very high DPS party. So, when very highly geared people, a small percentage of the population(very forum active), get together to do something that most of them have done many times before experience extreme lag when they are trying to do it really fast(high dps). It is just as reasonable for me to assume that a small party causes no problems, but a large party doing extreme DPS is causing the problem. Removing the troublesome raids seems as reasonable a solution as removing hirelings. ( both pretty foolish IMO but that’s the DDO forums)

I could even suggest that doing high level raids brings out the worst in people. It makes them loot greedy, intolerant of others and helps foster an attitude that makes people act like they are better than others. It isn’t true in many cases but it is no different than suggesting hirelings make people lazy and play poorly. I am not happy about the nerfs either, I will live and so will everyone else. If Turbine(not forum dwellers) were to come out and say hirelings are causing extreme lag and removing them will help out a high percentage of the DDO population I would survive, live with it and not whine about it. How have most people handled the update 5 information on the forums? Largely like spoiled children.

Drfirewater79
06-14-2010, 04:33 PM
Ramping up to 1200 players online:

Everyone solos: 1200 quests active, each with monster AI plus player actions, plus 1 (or more) hireling AI

vs.

Everyone groups: 200 quests active (or 100 raids, or a combo of the two), each with monster AI plus player actions, no hireling AI.

1200 quests vs 200 is dramatic to server resources and server-side lag.

More soloing = more lag.

Period.

Yeah really i cannot see how people dont understand this issue ... really even if your soloing

if all the people on both sides are soloing .. .the one with the AI controled hierling requires more resources (only slightly but still more)

ITS CAUSE YOU ADD AN AI CONTROLLED ELEMENT !!!!!!!

its not rocket science every calculation the computer has to make puts more load on it .. .so every heal the hierling makes .. .every computer controled movement .. .every physics check both against hierling and for the hierling adds to the number of calculations per second the computer has to make ...



I am not so certain I buy into your reasoning that hirelings cause more lag. As a general rule I experience zero lag. Very infrequently have I ever experienced any and I cannot exempt my connection. I have been told by people who raid certain raids very often that they have extreme lag when they have a very high DPS party. So, when very highly geared people, a small percentage of the population(very forum active), get together to do something that most of them have done many times before experience extreme lag when they are trying to do it really fast(high dps). It is just as reasonable for me to assume that a small party causes no problems, but a large party doing extreme DPS is causing the problem. Removing the troublesome raids seems as reasonable a solution as removing hirelings. ( both pretty foolish IMO but that’s the DDO forums)

I could even suggest that doing high level raids brings out the worst in people. It makes them loot greedy, intolerant of others and helps foster an attitude that makes people act like they are better than others. It isn’t true in many cases but it is no different than suggesting hirelings make people lazy and play poorly. I am not happy about the nerfs either, I will live and so will everyone else. If Turbine(not forum dwellers) were to come out and say hirelings are causing extreme lag and removing them will help out a high percentage of the DDO population I would survive, live with it and not whine about it. How have most people handled the update 5 information on the forums? Largely like spoiled children.

First off DPS lag is a myth ... its not the DPS that lags us out its the shear number of calculations being made every second .... the same number of calculations that would be made if the same people where doing other missions at the same time ... only difference is the more people together the more it effects you directly ...

its not caused by the fact that there are 12 people rather then 1 person and a hierling in a mission its caused by the shear number of people on the server and when you get lots of them together it magnifies the symptoms ... the symptom is not the cause ...

you dont have a cough because you have a cough ... you have a cough because you have a cold ....

the cough is the outcome of the cold ... just like lag in shroud is the outcome of high server stress caused by over instancing and to many calculations being made over all the world at once.

you might not experience lag .... ever .... if you never leave the marketplace i doubt you ever will ... This game has always seemed to show less lag over all in individual instances ... but world lag is always and has always been huge ...

now its worse cause with an influx of players since mod 9 aka DDO:E.Unlimited and hierlings now there are more then 3 times (infact if turbine wasnt lieing its 5 times our player base) the people playing ..

more people = more server stress...

now you take more people and rather then have them work together you have them each open seperate instances ... causing twice as many calculations for physics checks cause each is fighting off 10 mobs at once rather then each fighting 1-2 mobs at once (be it that others in the party contribute to the killing)

also the longer a mob stays alive (or the longer it takes to kill it ) the more calculations have to be made ... if its still alive it still needs to swing check its physics against you and you need to swing and check your physics against it ...

in a full group the mobs die faster ... or at least are active for less time ... even if everyone in your 6 man group sucks and you are uber ... they are still going to do SOME damage ... there for taking your over all time down if you play at your optimum level.

meaning not only are there less mobs in a full group but less time to kill them meaning less work the computer has to do to calculate moves physics attack damage attack range casting healing and DA ......

if this wasnt the case then they wouldnt have implemented DA ... cause it is the exact same thing they where fighting against ... solo play zerging activated more mobs needed more calculations and caused a great deal of server lag.

and just so you know ... highly geared people are not a small part of the population .... shroud gear can be grinded out very easily ... if you have 4 characters and each hit lvl 20 i can pretty much bet at least two of them have one tier III shroud weapon or item if not more ...

i have 5 characters at lvl 20 i rarely run shroud on my caster (has only 10 completions) i have 50 on my monk 22 on my main fighter 10 on my other fighter and 6 on my healer (i know i know but really i suck as a healer so you dont want me to play him trust me) and i have two single shard weapons and one single shard item and one double shard item on my monk ... i have two single shard items and two double shard weapons on my main tank ... i have one single shard weapon on my other tank and i have two tier II items one on my cleric and one on my wizard.

and i have the pre crafted ingredients for a tier III for my sorc who is only lvl 15 and enough for another lighingstirke right now if i want ...

i dont run it every day ... shoot maybe twice a week ...

and there are many people who actually farm items who prolly have 4-6 items on each of there 12 lvl 20 characters.

and MMO's make people loot greedy not Raids ... you have any idea how crazy people would get about other people pulling wounding puncturing rapiers back in the day ... more people get crazy over non raid loot then raid loot if you ask me ... raid loot at least you know you have a 50 50 chance after your 20th run if you never got it ...

SPOILED CHILDREN!!! that is name calling and i have heard people get infractions for less ....

so watch out ...

as you prolly havent been with the game for the last 4 years and prolly dont know the trials and tribulations that have lead to update 5 being considered the worst move in turbine history and other stating only good thing to come of it is new content or dubing it Nerfdate 5 .... so i will let that one slide as you prolly have no clue about what your talking about ... .

which is pretty obvious be it that you cannot see past your own play style to see how more active mobs and more active AI causes lag for everyone else .....

if turbine came out and said hierlings create lag they would be saying they made a mistake and if you know anything about turbine you know they dont have the ..... ah .... how to put this lightly ... ability to admit they where wrong.

Magusrex777
06-14-2010, 05:30 PM
Yeah really i cannot see how people dont understand this issue ... really even if your soloing

if all the people on both sides are soloing .. .the one with the AI controled hierling requires more resources (only slightly but still more)

ITS CAUSE YOU ADD AN AI CONTROLLED ELEMENT !!!!!!!

its not rocket science every calculation the computer has to make puts more load on it .. .so every heal the hierling makes .. .every computer controled movement .. .every physics check both against hierling and for the hierling adds to the number of calculations per second the computer has to make ...




First off DPS lag is a myth ... its not the DPS that lags us out its the shear number of calculations being made every second .... the same number of calculations that would be made if the same people where doing other missions at the same time ... only difference is the more people together the more it effects you directly ...

its not caused by the fact that there are 12 people rather then 1 person and a hierling in a mission its caused by the shear number of people on the server and when you get lots of them together it magnifies the symptoms ... the symptom is not the cause ...

you dont have a cough because you have a cough ... you have a cough because you have a cold ....

the cough is the outcome of the cold ... just like lag in shroud is the outcome of high server stress caused by over instancing and to many calculations being made over all the world at once.

you might not experience lag .... ever .... if you never leave the marketplace i doubt you ever will ... This game has always seemed to show less lag over all in individual instances ... but world lag is always and has always been huge ...

now its worse cause with an influx of players since mod 9 aka DDO:E.Unlimited and hierlings now there are more then 3 times (infact if turbine wasnt lieing its 5 times our player base) the people playing ..

more people = more server stress...

now you take more people and rather then have them work together you have them each open seperate instances ... causing twice as many calculations for physics checks cause each is fighting off 10 mobs at once rather then each fighting 1-2 mobs at once (be it that others in the party contribute to the killing)

also the longer a mob stays alive (or the longer it takes to kill it ) the more calculations have to be made ... if its still alive it still needs to swing check its physics against you and you need to swing and check your physics against it ...

in a full group the mobs die faster ... or at least are active for less time ... even if everyone in your 6 man group sucks and you are uber ... they are still going to do SOME damage ... there for taking your over all time down if you play at your optimum level.

meaning not only are there less mobs in a full group but less time to kill them meaning less work the computer has to do to calculate moves physics attack damage attack range casting healing and DA ......

if this wasnt the case then they wouldnt have implemented DA ... cause it is the exact same thing they where fighting against ... solo play zerging activated more mobs needed more calculations and caused a great deal of server lag.

and just so you know ... highly geared people are not a small part of the population .... shroud gear can be grinded out very easily ... if you have 4 characters and each hit lvl 20 i can pretty much bet at least two of them have one tier III shroud weapon or item if not more ...

i have 5 characters at lvl 20 i rarely run shroud on my caster (has only 10 completions) i have 50 on my monk 22 on my main fighter 10 on my other fighter and 6 on my healer (i know i know but really i suck as a healer so you dont want me to play him trust me) and i have two single shard weapons and one single shard item and one double shard item on my monk ... i have two single shard items and two double shard weapons on my main tank ... i have one single shard weapon on my other tank and i have two tier II items one on my cleric and one on my wizard.

and i have the pre crafted ingredients for a tier III for my sorc who is only lvl 15 and enough for another lighingstirke right now if i want ...

i dont run it every day ... shoot maybe twice a week ...

and there are many people who actually farm items who prolly have 4-6 items on each of there 12 lvl 20 characters.

and MMO's make people loot greedy not Raids ... you have any idea how crazy people would get about other people pulling wounding puncturing rapiers back in the day ... more people get crazy over non raid loot then raid loot if you ask me ... raid loot at least you know you have a 50 50 chance after your 20th run if you never got it ...

SPOILED CHILDREN!!! that is name calling and i have heard people get infractions for less ....

so watch out ...

as you prolly havent been with the game for the last 4 years and prolly dont know the trials and tribulations that have lead to update 5 being considered the worst move in turbine history and other stating only good thing to come of it is new content or dubing it Nerfdate 5 .... so i will let that one slide as you prolly have no clue about what your talking about ... .

which is pretty obvious be it that you cannot see past your own play style to see how more active mobs and more active AI causes lag for everyone else .....

if turbine came out and said hierlings create lag they would be saying they made a mistake and if you know anything about turbine you know they dont have the ..... ah .... how to put this lightly ... ability to admit they where wrong.

Touched a nerve eh? Lol I have been playing MMOs since UO. I have always participated on the forums in every game. Zero infractions, can you say the same? I will let Turbine decide about my posting. I can easily say every single thing you are saying about the lag you could be making up. You might have some experience but you do not know for sure. I have played every single Turbine game, they have admitted many times when they have made a mistake. So I know some things.

Here is something else I know. In every other game I have played and this one, when I am solo or duo and have herded insane amount of mobs together to AoE, zero lag. Take a huge amount of PCs and put them in one place, 40 man raids in WoW, Huge PvP in WoW, huge raids in EQ, try to have massive guild meeting in AC1 and AC2 or do huge group pvp, basically any time you put a large amount of PCs together you get lag, the bad lag. Shoot, AC1 would teleport you out of town if too many people went but you could have 5000 Olthoi(exag) on you in the hive and have no lag. It is just as likely something coded into the way combat works that more groups of 12 are responsible as hirelings for lag. I will in fact trust Turbine on what is the cause for the lag vs people who are bitter on the forums about changes to the game.

donfilibuster
06-14-2010, 05:37 PM
Naturally removing hirelings is a radical measure, hirelings have a niche in the game.
Thing is hireling lag and dps lag are not trivial and really deserve dev research.

The bits of drama seems to come from the varied player's experience.
People not getting hireling lag is probably careful or not zerging and thus don't get in trouble long enough to get lag.
Hirelings on passive mode or facing no challenge don't get lag either.
Still there's people reporting hireling lag in situations that aren't too well documented.

Furthermore quests where u can get hireling lag are also ones where full group is advised
(many players are wary about unnecessary dungeon scaling, they tell you not to bring hirelings).
Thus only the people that insist on bringing hirelings there get to notice the hireling lag.
This leads to more forum postings on some player complaining about the lag while soloing with a hireling.

tfangel
06-14-2010, 05:45 PM
Basically it comes down to that you felt hurt by the weapon fighting "nerf" and want to spoil other peoples fun. "If they nerf me, why not them?" Why not get rid of green steel and multiple weapon effects? I'm sure those cause lag too.

I've run dungeons with five hirelings, in fact it's one of my favorite things to do, and i rarely if ever get lag that isn't from some computer on my network deciding to download an update (six computers connected 24/7, doing their thing). Only once in the past few months have i had lag that was more than momentary. If hirelings caused lag as much as others are saying, i'd be having a ton of lag, which i'm not.

Magusrex777
06-14-2010, 06:03 PM
Do we all believe that Turbine wants to fix the lag?

Do we all believe Turbine wants to improve their overall customer satisfaction with their game?

Do we believe Turbine would rather leave their game broken than admit they had made a mistake about something?

Financially, as a corporation they are motivated substantially to make the game better for the most people. I think people know how they themselves are (unwilling to ever admit they are wrong) and apply that line of thinking to Turbine because that is how they behave.

Answer those questions if you are willing, I am trying to understand the level of conspiracy thinking I am dealing with here. I am not trying to suggest Turbine is a bunch of angels, they are not going to talk about everything that goes on behind the scenes with transparency, I am sure they cover their behinds. I am also sure they want a successful, game, a lag free game, happy customers ect because it make financial sense for them to do so. There are many times when the happiness or contentedness of a few is sacrificed for the many and I do not see a way around that kind of thinking. It is just like life, sometimes things do not go my way. How an individual chooses to handle those times says a great deal about who they are as a person.

SisAmethyst
06-14-2010, 08:25 PM
I love hirelings...Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.

Sounds like some men refer to the perfect woman ... quite, willingly and never complaining :D


...ITS CAUSE YOU ADD AN AI CONTROLLED ELEMENT !!!!!!! ...

Well, I am not sure if you can name that controlling Element an AI :)

While there is merit in the statement that an Server controlled Element produce more effort I guess statements like


...
Everyone solos: 1200 quests active, each with monster AI plus player actions, plus 1 (or more) hireling AI
vs.
Everyone groups: 200 quests active (or 100 raids, or a combo of the two), each with monster AI plus player actions, no hireling AI.
...
More soloing = more lag...

... are a bit one dimensional (no offend Zaodan, just picked that as an example). Why?

First of its probably far off the reality as if I remember correctly in one post the Devs stated that the common group size for Questing is 4 Players. And I guess this hasn't changed much since the early days, but what has changed is the huge amount of new players.
The AI to control a Mob is not that much different than the one for controlling the hireling, just the attack schema is inverted. Additionally to this if you solo you play totaly differently then when grouping, e.g. because you lure the mobs instead rushing into battle. So in the end soloing an instance takes you usually more time and as well less monster and player actions over time.
So you would need already to calculate in the time you spend and the number of mobs you confronted in this picture. Four players that kill a group of monsters in 1 minute in one spot need a lot more calculation then one player killing one mob with one hireling that is maybe even parked at the entrance.

Next thing is, who say that the AI of the Hireling is in the Server? What is if the AI is calculated on the client side and then just the movement informations are send to the Server. Its like a second player that is controlled by the PC and cheating this way? No, as this Player still is bound to the same limits as a real player character.

Last but not least the AI of the console game Nethack looks sometimes more complex then the one of the Hirelings and this game even run on a cell phone. A server system is capable of running thousands of those before even noticing that anything has changed on the load.

Last but not least, why we get still lag on Lama? I mean right now you are unable to summon a Hireling or you get booted. So if it would be the Hireling, why then still on Lama where there are just a couple of players anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for addressing and fixing lag, but some people here seem to rush like a train in one direction and forgetting to see what lies right and left to them. For some problems the answer is not that trivial as we may sometimes think (however sometime it is indeed) but I guess that even if we would remove all the Hireling we still would suffer under Lag.


...origionally this game had the slogan friends dont let friends solo ... while it didnt work marketing wise (hence the addition of casual and solo difficulties over the years) it does make sense when figuring out lag ...

Yes, I liked that one!

Devonian
06-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Basically it comes down to that you felt hurt by the weapon fighting "nerf" and want to spoil other peoples fun. "If they nerf me, why not them?" Why not get rid of green steel and multiple weapon effects? I'm sure those cause lag too.

I've run dungeons with five hirelings, in fact it's one of my favorite things to do, and i rarely if ever get lag that isn't from some computer on my network deciding to download an update (six computers connected 24/7, doing their thing). Only once in the past few months have i had lag that was more than momentary. If hirelings caused lag as much as others are saying, i'd be having a ton of lag, which i'm not.

Agreed, the tears and bile out poured at the proposed changes are pathetic. If you ask me That's what's going to drive more players away than the actual nerf.

Frankly if a mild decrece in damage is enough to drive you from a game, you were never a fan of it, any mote than the classic Ganking elite sniping new players is a fan of pvp. You just like to win a lot.

thebrute7
06-14-2010, 08:49 PM
If it would reduce lag I would be perfectly willing to see hirelings removed even though I use them alot and when my friend and I duo we use them. I also wouldn't mind seeing them go away to get people to group more. Really, if the Devs thought it would help either of those I wouldn't mind losing my hireling too much.

supp3nhuhn
06-14-2010, 10:08 PM
If they were the cause of lag i wouldn't have many problems playing without them either but they're not.

A hireling is just yet another entity in a dungeon just as a beholder or a kobold. Once an encounter spawns you get way more load then by the 1 to 3 computer clerics. That btw is also the reason why dungeon alert does lower load because when you zerg through 200 mobs it helps a lot to not have to compute every one of them individually.

If hirelings would cause so much lag as is stated in this thread then surely people running around with them a lot would notice it. But they don't.
What gets a lot of lag are certain high level raids where noone brings a hireling so that might hint at what is not the problem.

Just think about the amount of computations the server has to perform when you hit the left mousebutton wielding your greensteel rapiers with a dozen effects on them, each being resisted with a different stat, some with chances to proc some other effects, feats to check upon and so on, same for running through a horde of mobs with a greataxe and hitting 12 of them simultaneously. The hireling ai is nothing compared to that.

Surely the new patch will nerf twf and thf and the lag issues could have been adressed without nerfing those combat styles.
On the other hand when you look around your average raid group where noone is primarily an archer and the only one carrying a shield is the cleric one could ask oneself if such a nerf isn't for the better.

Ystradmynach
06-14-2010, 10:25 PM
My experience with hirelings is that they do seem to cause lag, or at least the vast majority of the time when I suffer lag it is with a hireling. However, I'm not buying that someone else having a hireling is causing server wide lag. I bet the resources set for each instance on a server is static, and not something dependent on what is going on in other instances, otherwise why even have instances in the first place?

If the problem though is that hirelings are causing lag, then just don't use them, and maybe warn people that hirelings can cause lag. If the problem is with server wide resources being taxed, just introduce new servers so each server can handle the load it is given. But from what I can tell that is not the problem, so it is a moot point.

badbob117
06-14-2010, 10:42 PM
I hate the hireling lag. it really sucks when it happens but i would rather see them work on fixing that then removing them from the game. If they removed every little thing from the game that had some flaws and swept it under the carpet, we would not be left with much.

Fix it, don't nix it....

Jendrak
06-14-2010, 11:09 PM
All this time and no one realized our Shroud lag wasnt caused by DPS, but by hirelings. Darnit.

Well if the reasoning behind DA was to reduce lag in the shroud and other areas then removing (or replaceing with something that requires less server resources) hirelings should do the same.

Kinda makes you wonder if they even know what causes the lag or if their just swinging the nerf bat and hopeing for a homerun. :confused:

esoitl
06-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Ramping up to 1200 players online:

Everyone solos: 1200 quests active, each with monster AI plus player actions, plus 1 (or more) hireling AI

vs.

Everyone groups: 200 quests active (or 100 raids, or a combo of the two), each with monster AI plus player actions, no hireling AI.

1200 quests vs 200 is dramatic to server resources and server-side lag.

More soloing = more lag.

Period.
Your only flaw here is that 1200 people will not be soloing at one time...

Groups still form, a few players still solo, some might even use hirelings. The percentage of solo players though is likely to be pretty low still. It's a good point, more instances use more resources, but be realistic at least...

There is little proof that you or anyone else can give that shows hirelings being a burden on the system. We can make an assumption that they cause lag, because it makes sense, but without evidence it means nothing and is just a theory.
I've used hirelings in the past and noticed absolutely no change in game play, whether I used them to duo or to fill a group. I have noticed that at peak times things tend to take slightly longer loading, and when I'm using bandwith elsewhere things lag slightly. Those are the two instances where I tend to find I encounter a difference in game play due to lag.

It's entirely possible there are other circumstances creating lag that you just happily attribute to hirelings because it's easy to do so.
To the OP and any other that agrees with the purpose of this thread, how about you supply some evidence linking hirelings to lag.

trespasser
06-15-2010, 03:47 AM
Ah, but isn't it more reasonable to attack lag at the source? Twelve man raids report lag, people soloing do not. Hence, raids lag people - make all instances solo or two-man tops, no huge calculations, no lag. If that is done we can even leave the combat system as it is!

/sarcasm off

Seriously, being upset about the combat changes is not a good reason to start threads like this one on the test server forums.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 09:30 AM
Touched a nerve eh? Lol I have been playing MMOs since UO. I have always participated on the forums in every game. Zero infractions, can you say the same? I will let Turbine decide about my posting. I can easily say every single thing you are saying about the lag you could be making up. You might have some experience but you do not know for sure. I have played every single Turbine game, they have admitted many times when they have made a mistake. So I know some things.

Here is something else I know. In every other game I have played and this one, when I am solo or duo and have herded insane amount of mobs together to AoE, zero lag. Take a huge amount of PCs and put them in one place, 40 man raids in WoW, Huge PvP in WoW, huge raids in EQ, try to have massive guild meeting in AC1 and AC2 or do huge group pvp, basically any time you put a large amount of PCs together you get lag, the bad lag. Shoot, AC1 would teleport you out of town if too many people went but you could have 5000 Olthoi(exag) on you in the hive and have no lag. It is just as likely something coded into the way combat works that more groups of 12 are responsible as hirelings for lag. I will in fact trust Turbine on what is the cause for the lag vs people who are bitter on the forums about changes to the game.

I have not played other TURBINE mmo's and have been playing live action mmo's only since SWG launch ... before that zorg was the way to go text based multiplayer dnd fashion.

But i have played this game since launch and i can tell you NEVER not even once has turbine owned up to its mistakes in this game .... even with pale master 100's of posts before launch saying it had all sorts of problems and then they nerfed it before launch with 1000's of posts about how useless the class was after the nerf ... and do you know what the first DEV response was ..... A DEV said they thought pale master was a great success and had no idea people disliked it so much.

Besides ... if you have played ANY mmo and never gotten an infraction in a forum it means one of two things ... one - you have never been passionate about the game and loved it to the point of willing to fight for it .... or two - you are a fanboi

not calling you names or what ever just saying what i have noticed on forums with everyone in multiple games i have played since i started playing MMO's if people dont get infractions then they dont really care about the game...

DeV's are squishies ... to much bad talk and eventually you get infractions even if you dont break rules ....

Now i am not allowed to talk about infractions what i have or have not gotten them for is part of the CoC to not be disputed in forums .... or i could mention some "Stupid" infractions i have gotten ....


Basically it comes down to that you felt hurt by the weapon fighting "nerf" and want to spoil other peoples fun. "If they nerf me, why not them?" Why not get rid of green steel and multiple weapon effects? I'm sure those cause lag too.

I've run dungeons with five hirelings, in fact it's one of my favorite things to do, and i rarely if ever get lag that isn't from some computer on my network deciding to download an update (six computers connected 24/7, doing their thing). Only once in the past few months have i had lag that was more than momentary. If hirelings caused lag as much as others are saying, i'd be having a ton of lag, which i'm not.

I didnt make the suggestion because of the TWF changes ... its just an example.

Green steel effects dont cause any lag at all they are the same as multiple effects on every weapon .. .turbine has already stated this fact ... they said the issue comes in to the amount of calculations based on physics in this game ... it means calculating players vs distance vs swing area and range .... and this works both ways forward and back ....

the more mobs are active on a server and the more opponents for them to attack or to be attacked by them the more server load is put on .....

TWF nerf doesnt fix lag its been proven .. but by there own statements .... and as such proves that hierlings are AN issue .. not the only issue but a big issue ... NETWORK lag doesnt show up in all cases ... the individual instances dont always show lag ... but when increased lag is showing up in other places because the server load is high.

Its obvious cause before hierlings even with zerging soloers the lag in game was the same lag in raid ....

now raid is getting worse .... its cause the server is bogged down with the amount of instancing going on and high server populations ... \

really it prolly could be fixed if they increased bandwith for raid parties ... but then you people in single instances taking up full bandwith for yourselves in that instance would see much worse lag.

but you could keep your hierlings :)

-----------------------------------------------------------
I mean if people dont want to see common sense as a possibility then its really not worth talking to them anymore ...

if you guys can't see past your own egos to see that its a problem for the game overall regardless ... then i have nothing more to say to you.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 10:01 AM
originally posted by SisAmethyst

who say that the AI of the Hireling is in the Server? What is if the AI is calculated on the client side and then just the movement informations are send to the Server. Its like a second player that is controlled by the PC and cheating this way? No, as this Player still is bound to the same limits as a real player character.


this is a good point ... but if that was the case then people who have hierlings especially people running multiples would have client side lag .... since less people with hierlings are having lag it SUGGESTS (but not proves, that would require turbine staff to say something) that hierlings are controlled by server and not individual clients ...

that being said ... its not there actions so much as the physics checks that turbine is blaming lag on ...

physics checks and the number of physics checks per mob and per character are what is causing the greatest amount of lag in DDO ...

as per turbine ...

which means the more active mobs vs the most targets = the most lag ...

so again like zodans post states ...

let me do it again in smaller numbers so you can see it more clearly

12 people = 2 parties .... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 20 active mobs for 2 parties with 12 total targets(PC's_)= 12x20 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill = 240 physics checks per swing (two swings a second in some cases)

server load = 240 physics 2 instances

12 people in 12 instances each with 1 heirling each.... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 120 active mobs for 12 parties with 24 total targets (pc and hierlings) = 24x120 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill (at a slower rate of kills per second) = 2880 physics checks per swing (two swings per second in some cases)

server load = 2880 physics checks 12 instances

that is an huge load .... but it only shows up in high load areas ... so the raid group which needs more bandwith and server dedication suffers because the bandwith is the same output per instance regardless of players in it ....

so raids get lag and non raids do not ... but its still causes more server lag ...

proof of this is Shroud part 4 where we fight 1 mob and get lag while you can have even 6 people fighting against 10 mobs in small party missions and not see lag ... even against boss mobs with there henchmen fighting at the same time.

its easier to understand when you see the numbers in some obvious way like this ...

just didnt think the thread would require that much in your face number crunching when i started the thread ... I kind of thought turbine would have stepped in by now and said something about how Hierling AI is being changed to fix this issue ... or how pet/hierlings are being removed from physics checks list so they will always hit when in range but with substantially less dps or something like this.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 10:06 AM
Ah, but isn't it more reasonable to attack lag at the source? Twelve man raids report lag, people soloing do not. Hence, raids lag people - make all instances solo or two-man tops, no huge calculations, no lag. If that is done we can even leave the combat system as it is!

/sarcasm off

Seriously, being upset about the combat changes is not a good reason to start threads like this one on the test server forums.

LET ME BE CLEAR !!!!!

I am not angry about the changes to the combat system changes because of the nerf to DPS ... i am angry about the changes that where issued to reduce lag when there are other more obvious ways to reduce lag in this game.

and lama is the perfect place for this topic because it is directly associated with issues many people are leaving the game because of in Update 5.

Uska
06-15-2010, 10:06 AM
Its not quite the same ball park really .... you see the lag in raids is caused by over use of resources ....

as someone who pugs ALOT i understand what you are saying about hierlings at times being better then real players ... but that is the problem ...

hierlings make players lazy and at end game .... those same players who do nothing but eat up resources with hierlings cannot play in groups....

Hierlings dont help you learn group dynamics or strat that is required for end game success ... or raid success for that matter ...

raids fill a needed resource sync ... raids actually reduce lag cause its 12 people in one instance where soloing and short manning causes more lag 12 people in 12 instances filled with monsters.

origionally this game had the slogan friends dont let friends solo ... while it didnt work marketing wise (hence the addition of casual and solo difficulties over the years) it does make sense when figuring out lag ...

not to say we didnt have lag before hierlings that would be a lie ...

but never had lag like we do today ....

while small instances and solo'd misisons rarely if ever actually lag out themselves they cause higher lag draw on big parties and not just raids ...


Again i like hierlings myself ... but they need to go if they are ruining game play enjoyment for large groups and only helping small ones.

if it has come to nerfing players to battle problems that hierlings cause then its an obvious NEED to eliminate hierlings cause there will be a smaller group of people effected by the change....

if you and your wife two man missions ... you dont really need hierlings ... and if you did it without hierlings you would be learning skills that would help you in end game ,,, not to say you specifically need or dont already have those skills but to say there are hundreds of people at lvl 20 who dont know where to buy heal scrolls and dont know what areas have cure serious pots .....

if there was no hierling option these people wouldnt be such a burden on everyone else and there would be less noob hate ... cause they would learn the game better and faster .. .much like us vets had to ....




I did that as a joke already and got 4 neg rep for it lol .....

Well I liked it so +1

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 10:10 AM
To the OP and any other that agrees with the purpose of this thread, how about you supply some evidence linking hirelings to lag.

Yeah and while i compile that ... why dont you reply with some evidence that it doesnt ...

until turbine chimes in we have no proof either way .. but i did show a pretty straight forward comparison on a post above which uses TURBINES OWN WORDS in formula to prove server load ... which is what causes server lag ....

if you know something I dont that throws my calculations off .. considering i only used physics checks in my calculations which are directly taken from quotes from Eladrin on the greater cause of lag causing changes in update 5 being physics checks...

yeah i think that qualifies it as proof ....

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 10:14 AM
Agreed, the tears and bile out poured at the proposed changes are pathetic. If you ask me That's what's going to drive more players away than the actual nerf.

Frankly if a mild decrece in damage is enough to drive you from a game, you were never a fan of it, any mote than the classic Ganking elite sniping new players is a fan of pvp. You just like to win a lot.

while its completely off topic ... the reason for people leaving because of the combat nerf is not the DPS its the combat speed that destroyed ranger splashes and monk splashes and reduces the DnD PnP feel from combat that is driving people away ... trust me no one cares about the dps difference since turbine stated they would be lowering mob hps to balance out the dps loss.

but this topic is about lag not dps nerf.

Cyr
06-15-2010, 10:18 AM
I could even suggest that doing high level raids brings out the worst in people. It makes them loot greedy, intolerant of others and helps foster an attitude that makes people act like they are better than others. It isn’t true in many cases but it is no different than suggesting hirelings make people lazy and play poorly. I am not happy about the nerfs either, I will live and so will everyone else. If Turbine(not forum dwellers) were to come out and say hirelings are causing extreme lag and removing them will help out a high percentage of the DDO population I would survive, live with it and not whine about it. How have most people handled the update 5 information on the forums? Largely like spoiled children.

Mag there is one thing here that is important. You use more resources per person then people in full parties without hirelings do. You may experience little lag, but the same could be said for many who zerged succesfully pre-DA. It's not about your personal lag, but about the increased resource use per person based upon playstyle.

DA was clearly targetted at a certain playstyle. It was justified for exactly the same reason that removing hirelings has to reduce required resource use per person. Now, take this one step further and the dynamic that encourages solo play now actually makes lag worse overall. This means that dungeon scaling should be removed as should casual mode as both promote more solo instances with the increased resource use per player that that entails.

This is all about server side resource use and not about hitting the send/recieve cap that seems to be causing the majority of dps lag.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 10:19 AM
Just think about the amount of computations the server has to perform when you hit the left mousebutton wielding your greensteel rapiers with a dozen effects on them, each being resisted with a different stat, some with chances to proc some other effects, feats to check upon and so on, same for running through a horde of mobs with a greataxe and hitting 12 of them simultaneously. The hireling ai is nothing compared to that.

Surely the new patch will nerf twf and thf and the lag issues could have been adressed without nerfing those combat styles.
On the other hand when you look around your average raid group where noone is primarily an archer and the only one carrying a shield is the cleric one could ask oneself if such a nerf isn't for the better.

monks have no greensteel at all ... and if you have a risia ritual on a holy burst rapier or greater bane with force ritual on it ... you are doing more numbers then greensteel ... way more if your a monk and that stuff is on handwraps with two tod rings.

greensteel is not the issue because its a minor calculation they already said this stuff ... if you guys pay attention to dev chatter then you would know that ....

this is why double strike was brought in .... the problem is in physics checks ... ITS ALREADY BEEN SAID BY TURBINE DEV TEAM ...

and my example proves how hierlings effect physics checks in a dungeon ..

so again ... bring up some sort of math or programing knowledge that proves me wrong and your only proving turbine wrong in the process ...

you cant play it both ways ...

and not a single person who is a hierling fanatic has brought forth one single shread of possibility to point lag at anything other then hierlings cept where it is shown the most ...

which is not proof as i explained in above thread.

Cyr
06-15-2010, 10:39 AM
Do we all believe that Turbine wants to fix the lag?

Do we all believe Turbine wants to improve their overall customer satisfaction with their game?

Do we believe Turbine would rather leave their game broken than admit they had made a mistake about something?

Financially, as a corporation they are motivated substantially to make the game better for the most people. I think people know how they themselves are (unwilling to ever admit they are wrong) and apply that line of thinking to Turbine because that is how they behave.


In order of question asked.

No, I don't think Turbine wants to fix lag. I don't think they believe it is feasible based upon their budget. Nothing I have seen from the development team the entire time I have played this game leads me to believe they are truly serious about really fixing the inneficient coding that leads to lag. Their lag 'fixes' further this viewpoint as they are at best band aids that skirt around the heart of the problem.

Overall customer satisfaction yes. However, I think Turbine has long had the perspective that it is easier to get new customers in the door then keeping the old ones. This means that if they think more players are casual guys who will never get above level ten then they will focus most of their attention on them.

Heck yeah. It's not Turbine, but the individuals that make up Turbine that makes this a reality. A short list of some things that Turbine never owned up to being a mistake. Original dragon, original titan, original abbot, later abbot, evasion in heavy armor and it's handling, sorcs becoming uber sauce in abbot mod, body effects for handwraps instead of as a weapon so no GS, epic item gimpage, epic quest design, lag fixes that do not noticable decrease lag for users, cyclical balancing (one is up now it's down, now next is way up), ranged combat, half orcs and druids due out years ago, what ever happened to that almost year Turbine put out no new content because it certainly was not reflected in what made it into Mod 9, and obvious exploits in centerpiece raids making it to release (for almost every single raid in the games history). In my entire time being a forum troll I have seen no clear admission of failure from Turbine.

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 10:54 AM
Mag there is one thing here that is important. You use more resources per person then people in full parties without hirelings do.

Maybe, depending on how you define resources. I could very well be causing less lag per person even with your definition of resources. My experience in all games has ALWAYS been: put more PCs together, have more lag.


You may experience little lag, but the same could be said for many who zerged succesfully pre-DA. It's not about your personal lag, but about the increased resource use per person based upon playstyle.

Cyr come right out and say what is on your mind. I am going to make a guess, you did not like the DA change or don’t believe Turbine when they say it was to fix lag and subsequently when they have said they have the facts to show DA has helped reduce lag. You think they are lying or want to prove them wrong. Basically I think you have an agenda here.



DA was clearly targeted at a certain playstyle.

I disagree, they said it was for lag and I am going to trust them since they have the facts and you do not.



It was justified for exactly the same reason that removing hirelings has to reduce required resource use per person. Now, take this one step further and the dynamic that encourages solo play now actually makes lag worse overall. This means that dungeon scaling should be removed as should casual mode as both promote more solo instances with the increased resource use per player that that entails.

This is all about server side resource use and not about hitting the send/recieve cap that seems to be causing the majority of dps lag.

Your line of reasoning is very shaky here and I really feel you have an agenda. IF Turbine were to come out and say “We have the facts that show removing hirelings from the game will help reduce lag for a majority of the playerbase” I will handle that announcement like a grown up.

Cyr and Drfirewater saying Hirelings are the cause for lag is nothing more than forum drama to me. I think you are upset about the nerfs and still have an axe to grind about DA. What would I find in both of your posting history about DA if I were to choose to look?

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 11:21 AM
I have not played other TURBINE mmo's and have been playing live action mmo's only since SWG launch ... before that zorg was the way to go text based multiplayer dnd fashion.

But i have played this game since launch and i can tell you NEVER not even once has turbine owned up to its mistakes in this game .... even with pale master 100's of posts before launch saying it had all sorts of problems and then they nerfed it before launch with 1000's of posts about how useless the class was after the nerf ... and do you know what the first DEV response was ..... A DEV said they thought pale master was a great success and had no idea people disliked it so much.

Offer wall? Every single change they make is admitting they made a mistake and when saying they will make more changes is also saying they know they will make more mistakes. I hope a dev will come here and say we have made mistakes and will make more mistakes. When was the last time you apologized to someone or admitted you were wrong on the forums Drfire? I know I have. 1000 of post from people whining about a nerf is not evidence that the nerf was a mistake, it might be a mistake. Here is a fact, any time there is nerf in any game for any reason there will be whining on the forums, whining proves nothing.


Besides ... if you have played ANY mmo and never gotten an infraction in a forum it means one of two things ... one - you have never been passionate about the game and loved it to the point of willing to fight for it .... or two - you are a fanboi

Nice little box you are painting me into. I have not gotten an infraction because I follow forum guidelines, nothing more, nothing less. I am very passionate about the games I have played to a point. I understand they are GAMES and human beings with families work for the companies that produce the games I play and read those forums. In a nutshull, I try to my model behavior my daughter could witness at all times. I could say something about people who get infractions and paint them into a little box too but I will refrain, it is too easy anyway.


not calling you names or what ever just saying what i have noticed on forums with everyone in multiple games i have played since i started playing MMO's if people dont get infractions then they dont really care about the game...

DeV's are squishies ... to much bad talk and eventually you get infractions even if you dont break rules ....

This is opinion on your part and I disagree with you. People who do not get infraction can care deeply about the game and the people who play it. Some people might say that people who do not get infractions have class. You can criticize a game severely and get no infractions. I loved AC2 but it deserved some of the harsh criticism it got, I gave it some. No infractions. Devs care more deeply about the game than anyone, it is their living, they want us to be happy. They are not going to let people belittle or insult them and I am glad they do not.

One last time, I do not hold much faith in what YOU say is causing the lag. If Turbine says hireling are impacting a large percentage of the population and removing them is the only option to fix this and help tons of people I will handle it just like a grown up should. BTW the TWF nerf impacts my wife and I very negatively out playstyle depends on offhands procs. Imp curse in one hard and paralyzing or disruption in the other depending on what we fight. We will survive, I have posted my modest disapproval with the change but also a willingness to accept it if it helps others.

Cyr
06-15-2010, 11:21 AM
I disagree, they said it was for lag and I am going to trust them since they have the facts and you do not.


Mag, I didn't say it was not about lag, but the fix clearly targetted a certain playstyle in this case the 'zerger'. The entire premise was, make zerging a pain and there will be less zerging and less active AI's at the same time. I am merely stating that no playstyle should be exempt from this logic.

Hirelings do cause more resource use per person. They are basically another player to keep track of. This means more sent and recieved data for the person with the hireling out and more server resources to handle the hireling.

The worst situation for server resource use right now is if every single person played solo all the time with a hireling out and zerged through a dungeon as quick as they could. This is a simple math calculation of how many active mobs there are on the entire server and per instance. DA is meant to reduce the zerging part, but it is a physcological fix so it clearly can not get rid of all zerging. So take the complete zerger out of the picture for simplicity sake. The next worse case is the gather and kill soloist with a hireling repeated across the entire server. This type of player is rather common among solo players as it is time efficient and managable. You zerg swinging as you go/firewalling and once you have enough mobs together you kill them. This saves lots of time for the players, but it means that they consistently have a rather high number of active mob AI's going. About 10 average is a fair number here per player.

Now consider the opposite case. Full raid group. There is only one instance active which means that there is unlikely to be over 25 active AI's at the same time. Now compare that to the opposite case of 12 solo guys with 10 mobs active per instance -> 120 active AI's. That is a huge difference in active AI's (ie pathing). In fact in most raids there are much fewer average active AI's as single boss fights are rather common.

Oh and do I like DA, of course not. It did not fix the basic problem. In the same way what I am stating here would not do either. For equality sakes no playstyle should be exempt from this logic if it is the path that is going to be used. I of course would prefer a real in depth rewritting of badly performing code. However as I said, if this path reducing calls to code instead of making code more efficient is the way Turbine is going (and all signs strongly indicate it is) then why the heck should hirelings and solo play be encouraged with their increased resource per player over full player parties?

All you are doing is arguing about my motives. Argue the issue not the person Mag.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 11:34 AM
1)Maybe, depending on how you define resources. I could very well be causing less lag per person even with your definition of resources. My experience in all games has ALWAYS been: put more PCs together, have more lag.



2)Cyr come right out and say what is on your mind. I am going to make a guess, you did not like the DA change or don’t believe Turbine when they say it was to fix lag and subsequently when they have said they have the facts to show DA has helped reduce lag. You think they are lying or want to prove them wrong. Basically I think you have an agenda here.




3) I disagree, they said it was for lag and I am going to trust them since they have the facts and you do not.




4)Your line of reasoning is very shaky here and I really feel you have an agenda. IF Turbine were to come out and say “We have the facts that show removing hirelings from the game will help reduce lag for a majority of the playerbase” I will handle that announcement like a grown up.

5)Cyr and Drfirewater saying Hirelings are the cause for lag is nothing more than forum drama to me. I think you are upset about the nerfs and still have an axe to grind about DA. What would I find in both of your posting history about DA if I were to choose to look?

1) i have given you the proof already again if you cannot see that soloing period causes more resource use regardless of hierlings and is only increased by hierlings the please prove me wrong with MATH ... or PROGRAMING examples.....

you cannot you just talk about your experience which is obviously not everyones experience and is not provable in any way shape or form ...

my example offers math proofs based on developer given statements ... your example offers no proof to validate you opinion ....

2) nice .. totally missing the point redirecting it at DA when its not the topic ...

3) 404Error stated directly in the most aggressive and hate filled dev post since launch that DA was here to stay and Zergers and people who refuse to play "IN THE BOX" set by turbine are the reasons.

that pretty much shuts down your idea of DA was not directed at a specific playstyle cause it was stated that it was by a lead Developer.

4) I doubt it cause we have given you all sorts of proof based on turbines comments and you refuse to see the validity in them now ...

5)I hate DA.... i am a zerger still to this day and i can tell you .. while it was designed to stop zerging cause many players on exit survey mentioned not liking the experience because of zerging players ... this hasnt changed for the zerg population ...

Currently i burn through DA anyway ... so DA has nothing to do with it .... current TWF changes and attack speed only effects me on 2 of my 12 characters ... and since i dont have a tempest ranger ... really my monk is the only one MAJORLY effected ...

again it has nothing to do with the topic of if hierlings add to lag EXCEPT for the fact that DEV comments in the threads about TWF changes prove that hierlings are the greatest cause of lag on any given server.

----------

again prove me wrong ... i welcome it ... i gave proof based on dev comments ... you give no opposition and have reverted to deflection to make you point seem more valid when in fact it is still meaning less and unvalidated "drama" as you say.

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Mag, I didn't say it was not about lag, but the fix clearly targetted a certain playstyle in this case the 'zerger'. The entire premise was, make zerging a pain and there will be less zerging and less active AI's at the same time. I am merely stating that no playstyle should be exempt from this logic.

Hirelings do cause more resource use per person. They are basically another player to keep track of. This means more sent and recieved data for the person with the hireling out and more server resources to handle the hireling.

The worst situation for server resource use right now is if every single person played solo all the time with a hireling out and zerged through a dungeon as quick as they could. This is a simple math calculation of how many active mobs there are on the entire server and per instance. DA is meant to reduce the zerging part, but it is a physcological fix so it clearly can not get rid of all zerging. So take the complete zerger out of the picture for simplicity sake. The next worse case is the gather and kill soloist with a hireling repeated across the entire server. This type of player is rather common among solo players as it is time efficient and managable. You zerg swinging as you go/firewalling and once you have enough mobs together you kill them. This saves lots of time for the players, but it means that they consistently have a rather high number of active mob AI's going. About 10 average is a fair number here per player.

Now consider the opposite case. Full raid group. There is only one instance active which means that there is unlikely to be over 25 active AI's at the same time. Now compare that to the opposite case of 12 solo guys with 10 mobs active per instance -> 120 active AI's. That is a huge difference in active AI's (ie pathing). In fact in most raids there are much fewer average active AI's as single boss fights are rather common.

Oh and do I like DA, of course not. It did not fix the basic problem. In the same way what I am stating here would not do either. For equality sakes no playstyle should be exempt from this logic if it is the path that is going to be used. I of course would prefer a real in depth rewritting of badly performing code. However as I said, if this path reducing calls to code instead of making code more efficient is the way Turbine is going (and all signs strongly indicate it is) then why the heck should hirelings and solo play be encouraged with their increased resource per player over full player parties?

All you are doing is arguing about my motives. Argue the issue not the person Mag.

Turbine has said DA has helped reduce lag, recently in fact. They said they the facts to prove it. We can believe or not. I do, not much to discuss there for me. I have done more than argue about your motives, I only questioned them, I still do. I feel it is valid to bring up. I disagree totally with your lag logic, I think the lag would be better if every was playing in groups of 6 or less. In groups of 12 with people with the best gear doing the most effects doing the fastest combat is when we see the stress, so eliminating that would do more than eliminating hirelings IMO.

I believe that is a terrible idea though just like I believe removing hirelings is terrible. You are missing that I have said a number of times that I could live with the removal of hirelings IF TURBINE says that is the only way to help a large percentage of people, I will handle that like an adult. You or anyone else other than a Turbine representative saying hireling cause the lag means extremely little to me. You can guess, you could make an argument VERY likely to be true but you could 100% wrong. I feel Turbine is in the best position to understand what is causing the lag and are motivated to fix it.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 11:43 AM
Offer wall? Every single change they make is admitting they made a mistake and when saying they will make more changes is also saying they know they will make more mistakes. I hope a dev will come here and say we have made mistakes and will make more mistakes. When was the last time you apologized to someone or admitted you were wrong on the forums Drfire? I know I have. 1000 of post from people whining about a nerf is not evidence that the nerf was a mistake, it might be a mistake. Here is a fact, any time there is nerf in any game for any reason there will be whining on the forums, whining proves nothing.



Nice little box you are painting me into. I have not gotten an infraction because I follow forum guidelines, nothing more, nothing less. I am very passionate about the games I have played to a point. I understand they are GAMES and human beings with families work for the companies that produce the games I play and read those forums. In a nutshull, I try to my model behavior my daughter could witness at all times. I could say something about people who get infractions and paint them into a little box too but I will refrain, it is too easy anyway.



This is opinion on your part and I disagree with you. People who do not get infraction can care deeply about the game and the people who play it. Some people might say that people who do not get infractions have class. You can criticize a game severely and get no infractions. I loved AC2 but it deserved some of the harsh criticism it got, I gave it some. No infractions. Devs care more deeply about the game than anyone, it is their living, they want us to be happy. They are not going to let people belittle or insult them and I am glad they do not.

One last time, I do not hold much faith in what YOU say is causing the lag. If Turbine says hireling are impacting a large percentage of the population and removing them is the only option to fix this and help tons of people I will handle it just like a grown up should. BTW the TWF nerf impacts my wife and I very negatively out playstyle depends on offhands procs. Imp curse in one hard and paralyzing or disruption in the other depending on what we fight. We will survive, I have posted my modest disapproval with the change but also a willingness to accept it if it helps others.

again nothing but deflection in your statements

but since you claim i didnt give proof just opinion here is the quote from the post you obviously didnt read


let me do it again in smaller numbers so you can see it more clearly

12 people = 2 parties .... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 20 active mobs for 2 parties with 12 total targets(PC's_)= 12x20 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill = 240 physics checks per swing (two swings a second in some cases)

server load = 240 physics 2 instances

12 people in 12 instances each with 1 heirling each.... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 120 active mobs for 12 parties with 24 total targets (pc and hierlings) = 24x120 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill (at a slower rate of kills per second) = 2880 physics checks per swing (two swings per second in some cases)

server load = 2880 physics checks 12 instances

that is an huge load .... but it only shows up in high load areas ... so the raid group which needs more bandwith and server dedication suffers because the bandwith is the same output per instance regardless of players in it ....

so raids get lag and non raids do not ... but its still causes more server lag ...

proof of this is Shroud part 4 where we fight 1 mob and get lag while you can have even 6 people fighting against 10 mobs in small party missions and not see lag ... even against boss mobs with there henchmen fighting at the same time.

its easier to understand when you see the numbers in some obvious way like this ...


this example is based 100% off of Eldarins comments as to what in TURBINES believe is the greatest cause of lag .... Physics calculations ... and the reason for the changes to TWF monk and ranger melee combat.

and while i will give you Offerwall as a good example of turbine admitting it was wrong ... they never actually admited they where wrong ... what they said was alot of people dislike it so we will take it down ... they never admited that they where wrong they side tracked it by saying enough people didnt like it and that there cries where heard ....

that is deflection ... to make them look like the hero ...

to tell you the truth ... i didnt even know what offerwall was until i heard the controversy and report of it being taken down ...

but that is not the point of the thread ...

lag is .. .and i have math proof ...

if you can come up with math proofs that prove other wise .. .sure...

but only turbine can prove me wrong ... and that would be to say its in the coding which they already admited physics checks work both ways on mobs and players so my math proof is flawless ...

flawless victory ... fatality.

megathon
06-15-2010, 11:47 AM
Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.
I don't know. There have been a few times where they seemed to have "AFK'ed" when I needed a heal. Come to find out they are still on the other side of the dungeon. lol

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 11:51 AM
You can guess, you could make an argument VERY likely to be true but you could 100% wrong. I feel Turbine is in the best position to understand what is causing the lag and are motivated to fix it.

Since you believe that turbine admits when its wrong ... and turbine is in the best position to understand ...

do you also believe that turbine has the ability to change the basic rules of math ???

since my example only uses TURBINES parameters showing only the cost of server load based on the one sect ... physics checks ....

hmmm ... maybe turbine has the ability to change the rules that make the world go round ... maybe ... turbine devs are actually gods and can change the real world as well as the fantasy one ...

I guess until turbine comes on this thread and says they are not all gods and are not always right and cannot change the rules of math .... we should believe that they are this way ...

OMG ... this means i am going to really hate afterlife .... i should start sucking up to turbine now !!!!!!

Cyr
06-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Turbine has said DA has helped reduce lag, recently in fact. They said they the facts to prove it. We can believe or not. I do, not much to discuss there for me. I have done more than argue about your motives, I only questioned them, I still do. I feel it is valid to bring up. I disagree totally with your lag logic, I think the lag would be better if every was playing in groups of 6 or less. In groups of 12 with people with the best gear doing the most effects doing the fastest combat is when we see the stress, so eliminating that would do more than eliminating hirelings IMO.


In groups with 12 people with the best gear....

You are talking about dps lag. It should be readily apparent that total server load is not the cause of dps lag. That is what I am talking about now. Not the limited resources allocated to a single instance and the send/recieve cap manifesting as dps lag.

You are not arguing the math, you are merely saying you think something differently without any of your supporting logic to back it up. Let's see something substantive to dispute that hirelings use up more resources then a person without a hireling (as in server resources and not in game heal scrolls :)).

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 11:59 AM
again nothing but deflection in your statements

but since you claim i didnt give proof just opinion here is the quote from the post you obviously didnt read



this example is based 100% off of Eldarins comments as to what in TURBINES believe is the greatest cause of lag .... Physics calculations ... and the reason for the changes to TWF monk and ranger melee combat.

and while i will give you Offerwall as a good example of turbine admitting it was wrong ... they never actually admited they where wrong ... what they said was alot of people dislike it so we will take it down ... they never admited that they where wrong they side tracked it by saying enough people didnt like it and that there cries where heard ....

that is deflection ... to make them look like the hero ...

to tell you the truth ... i didnt even know what offerwall was until i heard the controversy and report of it being taken down ...

but that is not the point of the thread ...

lag is .. .and i have math proof ...

if you can come up with math proofs that prove other wise .. .sure...

but only turbine can prove me wrong ... and that would be to say its in the coding which they already admited physics checks work both ways on mobs and players so my math proof is flawless ...

flawless victory ... fatality.

What you are calling a math proof is so far from flawless it is hard to even start a discussion. You are making assumptions everywhere. What if it has nothing to do with total instances. What if the problem only manifests when 10-12 people that require many physics checks in the same instance. I am sorry, I have a lot more faith in Turbine than you. Fatality that was cool :) It gave me a chuckle. If Turbine says they have to remove hirelings to help a large percentage of people I will deal with it. I wont like it, bit how one deals with adversity says so much more than I have to. Admittedly this is all very minor adversity.

esoitl
06-15-2010, 11:59 AM
Yeah and while i compile that ... why dont you reply with some evidence that it doesnt ...

until turbine chimes in we have no proof either way .. but i did show a pretty straight forward comparison on a post above which uses TURBINES OWN WORDS in formula to prove server load ... which is what causes server lag ....

if you know something I dont that throws my calculations off .. considering i only used physics checks in my calculations which are directly taken from quotes from Eladrin on the greater cause of lag causing changes in update 5 being physics checks...

yeah i think that qualifies it as proof ....

That hardly constitutes proof mate...

While I agree your numbers make sense, they are numbers you created and not numbers that exist. You have no idea what the servers can handle, nor do you have proof that people are soloing and using hirelings to create extra instances that are creating extra computations that the servers cannot process efficiently enough and is thus creating a lag problem.

Showing me information of that sort would be proof of hirelings causing lag.
There is a big difference between a theory and a law.

You made a point and made up numbers. The argument is sound, but unproven, hence it's a theory.

As smart as Einstein was, and as sound of an argument he had, it's called the Theory of Relativity, not the Law of Relativity simply because there is no proof that it actually exists, or holds true. You have posed the Theory of Hireling Lag, not the Law of Hireling Lag and you have not proven anything.

If you really want to give some proof, you will need to do a lot more than make up numbers and situations and write them off as being absolute...

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 12:05 PM
The numbers posted in my example are not unvalidated as the two of you might think ... again I am simply stating the same information already given by dev team in a easy to see fashion ...

what the servers can handle was never in the proof that was given so its irrelevant to the proof.

what i proved without a shadow of a doubt is that the same amount of people one group soloing and one group either raiding or two groups raiding both have substantially less drain on the server as per physics checks alone as they are described by turbine staff.

There is no way to disprove my findings as they numbers are calculated using turbines feedback on the issue....

it simply states the amount of physics checks made by the same number of people in two situations ...

that is how you compare situations ... again its just basic math ...

if it can be proven other wise through similar means please do so ... i welcome people to PROVE me wrong.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 12:11 PM
Showing me information of that sort would be proof of hirelings causing lag.
There is a big difference between a theory and a law.


If you really want to give some proof, you will need to do a lot more than make up numbers and situations and write them off as being absolute...

the numbers where not made up ... they where calculated ...

i didnt make up numbers i sated facts ...

12 people if 2 different situations and the shear number of calculations based on ONE attack ... i didn't even readjust for the quicker kill time and thus less load as time progresses in the 12 man x1 instance vs 1 man x12 instance x1 hierling situation i simply noted it to further the information and show that even without adjusting for time cost over an entire encounter they still have more then double the cost in server calculations (aka load)

my numbers are flawless .. please if either of you can explain to me where I made up anything ... i welcome it ...

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 12:11 PM
In groups with 12 people with the best gear....

You are talking about dps lag. It should be readily apparent that total server load is not the cause of dps lag. That is what I am talking about now. Not the limited resources allocated to a single instance and the send/recieve cap manifesting as dps lag.

You are not arguing the math, you are merely saying you think something differently without any of your supporting logic to back it up. Let's see something substantive to dispute that hirelings use up more resources then a person without a hireling (as in server resources and not in game heal scrolls :)).

I can't give you anything because I don't know, but here's the ticket laddie, you don't either. Maybe the software and hardware is designed so that many small instances with 1-2 people does very little. Maybe hirelings are not much different than a mob. Maybe 10 hirelings is much less stress than adding 1 more PC to an instance. I don't know, and don't really care.

If Trubine comes out and says hirelings need to be removed, I will deal. Everyone else quoting math and saying it is proof is making stuff up. I may have taken dif eq 20 years ago, but I got a 4.0 without buying the text. I have may forgotten more than I remember but the math I have seen being passed off as a proof is not worthy of discussion.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 12:21 PM
I can't give you anything because I don't know, but here's the ticket laddie, you don't either. Maybe the software and hardware is designed so that many small instances with 1-2 people does very little. Maybe hirelings are not much different than a mob. Maybe 10 hirelings is much less stress than adding 1 more PC to an instance. I don't know, and don't really care.

If Trubine comes out and says hirelings need to be removed, I will deal. Everyone else quoting math and saying it is proof is making stuff up. I may have taken dif eq 20 years ago, but I got a 4.0 without buying the text. I have may forgotten more than I remember but the math I have seen being passed off as a proof is not worthy of discussion.

ok your maybes are pretty valid ... especially since many are pretty obvious ..

1 )small instances - has more calculations because of slower dps ... this has been confirmed already by turbine staff .... so no maybes about it ...

in fact one could argue that with dungeon scaling it is toned down a little as the mobs have less hps ... so for the sake of siding with you ...

your small instance with 1-2 players situation doesnt change the numbers above but DOES remove the adjustments that i didnt make based on speed of kills ...

---------------

2) Hierlings being not much different then a mob .... this has no merit as mobs take physics checks as well .. .so the numbers still hold true.

-----------

3) 10 hierlings vs 1 PC ..... based on physics checks its obsurd ... but i will give you the point well taken on the possibility of CLIENT SIDE lag ... effecting others in the party ...


still proves nothing vs turbines own physics checks causing lag ... which is the point of the thread and the point of removing hierlings to reduce lag.
-----------

math never lies ... if your unwilling to see the proof when its placed in your lap then that is your issue ...

but if you cannot see the proof when its presented then really you have no leg to stand on in a discussion ...

so really you shouldn't be talking at all ... unless you can explain why the numbers mean nothing ... which you cannot cause they are plain as day .... absolute ...

Cyr
06-15-2010, 12:48 PM
I can't give you anything because I don't know, but here's the ticket laddie, you don't either. Maybe the software and hardware is designed so that many small instances with 1-2 people does very little. Maybe hirelings are not much different than a mob. Maybe 10 hirelings is much less stress than adding 1 more PC to an instance. I don't know, and don't really care.

If Trubine comes out and says hirelings need to be removed, I will deal. Everyone else quoting math and saying it is proof is making stuff up. I may have taken dif eq 20 years ago, but I got a 4.0 without buying the text. I have may forgotten more than I remember but the math I have seen being passed off as a proof is not worthy of discussion.

I never claimed proof. I claimed a theory based upon the evidence as I know it. You have claimed a counter theory based upon no evidence. Your grade point average in a calc course is irrelevent to the conversation. I mean heck I got a 4.0 on all my calc courses as well as some other elective math courses and that does not mean that my statement is better then yours. It's pointless as the math has been simple algebra that anyone who graduated middle school should be able to follow if they bothered to do so.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 12:55 PM
I never claimed proof. I claimed a theory based upon the evidence as I know it. You have claimed a counter theory based upon no evidence. Your grade point average in a calc course is irrelevent to the conversation. I mean heck I got a 4.0 on all my calc courses as well as some other elective math courses and that does not mean that my statement is better then yours. It's pointless as the math has been simple algebra that anyone who graduated middle school should be able to follow if they bothered to do so.

I think he means me in that proof talk ... cause it is proof that soloing with hierlings with the same number of players as in a raid which he claims is the issue without proof ... or math to back it up.

the numbers i gave are not rocket science .... its adding and multiplying ... grade 5 stuff ...

and to make it more simple i explained each step and each number and how it relates directly to server load as shear number of calculations .....

he doesnt have a leg to stand on so he is ignoring me who gave facts and shooting at you where he still feels he has a way to convince people who might be reading this that you and I are wrong and he is right ... even though he has yet to put forth even a valid theory let alone a valid theory as to how my numbers are not factual .... even though he said they are made up!!

THAC0
06-15-2010, 12:58 PM
I love hirelings. In many cases they are better than players. My wife and I run most dungeons with 2 of them so I hate the idea. We do not really have lag anywhere. I hear some raids are the only places they have lag why not just remove the raids instead of the hirelings? Seems like the same kind of suggestion. I am not being serious in case there is any doubt. Why do I like hirelings? My time is valuable, with their use I never wait I just play. If there is a LFM up for what I want to join we go, if not we use hirelings. We use them a high percentage of the time.

Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.

I'm sure the Hirelings feel and think the same about us...

"Those pesky players, always doing a quick bio, burning all their spell points and demanding Vs on them, always running ahead into mobs, bossing me around..."stand here, pull that, heal me, buff him, don't run off..." Sheesh, its no wonder those players cause so much lag...the Devs should get rid of those lag causing, zerging,always-causing-dungeon-alert players.... I can only tolerate their arrogance for an hour, then I have to leave cuz I just can't take it anymore..."

:)

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 01:08 PM
ok your maybes are pretty valid ... especially since many are pretty obvious ..

1 )small instances - has more calculations because of slower dps ... this has been confirmed already by turbine staff .... so no maybes about it ...

in fact one could argue that with dungeon scaling it is toned down a little as the mobs have less hps ... so for the sake of siding with you ...

your small instance with 1-2 players situation doesnt change the numbers above but DOES remove the adjustments that i didnt make based on speed of kills ...

I have not seen that Turbine has said small instances have more calculations in the way you are saying. I will look but I am not going to take your word for it. Sorry.

---------------


2) Hierlings being not much different then a mob .... this has no merit as mobs take physics checks as well .. .so the numbers still hold true.

It has plenty of merit because PCs have a lot more physic checks than a mob. Much much faster with all kinds of effects. We disagree.

-----------



3) 10 hierlings vs 1 PC ..... based on physics checks its obsurd ... but i will give you the point well taken on the possibility of CLIENT SIDE lag ... effecting others in the party ...


still proves nothing vs turbines own physics checks causing lag ... which is the point of the thread and the point of removing hierlings to reduce lag.
-----------

If Turbine comes out and backs up your claims and says they need to remove them, I will support the decision to remove hirelings. I will repeat that until it sinks in.




math never lies ... if your unwilling to see the proof when its placed in your lap then that is your issue ...

but if you cannot see the proof when its presented then really you have no leg to stand on in a discussion ...

so really you shouldn't be talking at all ... unless you can explain why the numbers mean nothing ... which you cannot cause they are plain as day .... absolute ...

I can see proof, I just do not agree with yours. Your multiplication is fine, I know math, please spare me. I can solve multiple complex differential equations. I have taken applied engineering mathematics, fluid dynamics, electromagnetic physics. Stop trying to be a math bully, it doesn’t impress me. It is what you are implying based on your calculations is that I think is BS because of your assumptions.

Math doesn’t lie, people do, and they do it all the time, you can use numbers to make a case for just about anything. I realize you would like to control who should be talking and who should not. You don’t really think I am going listen to you do you? If you post on forums learn to deal with people posting responses to things you do not want to see.

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 01:16 PM
I have never said either of you are wrong either. Your multiplying is just fine. To me "proof" is a serious thing and neither of you have presented any in my opinion. Hirelings may very well be causing server stress that only manifests itself in some raids for other people. Removing them because you believe that to be true, bad idea IMO. If Turbine says it will help I am cool with that. If they say removing the troublesome raids would help more, would you guys be cool with that? What if they say people use hirelings more than they do the lagging raids?

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 01:56 PM
1) I have not seen that Turbine has said small instances have more calculations in the way you are saying. I will look but I am not going to take your word for it. Sorry.

---------------


2) It has plenty of merit because PCs have a lot more physic checks than a mob. Much much faster with all kinds of effects. We disagree.

-----------


3)If Turbine comes out and backs up your claims and says they need to remove them, I will support the decision to remove hirelings. I will repeat that until it sinks in.



4) I can see proof, I just do not agree with yours. Your multiplication is fine, I know math, please spare me. I can solve multiple complex differential equations. I have taken applied engineering mathematics, fluid dynamics, electromagnetic physics. Stop trying to be a math bully, it doesn’t impress me. It is what you are implying based on your calculations is that I think is BS because of your assumptions.

Math doesn’t lie, people do, and they do it all the time, you can use numbers to make a case for just about anything. I realize you would like to control who should be talking and who should not. You don’t really think I am going listen to you do you? If you post on forums learn to deal with people posting responses to things you do not want to see.

1) Eladrin stated that physics checks are the same for mobs as it is for players ... he stated that everyone mob or player has to make a check to see range from target on every swing this is why TWF is being nerfed ... to lessen the amount of physics checks made by twf ... this is why alacrity is being removed because it means more physics checks faster ...

The proof of this is in the nerf ....

if there are more active mobs on the server making more physics checks then there is more lag ... amount of instances only increases the number of mobs and checks individual instancing means little and doesnt change the facts that point to more checks at once

if you want to look it up the information is in combat feedback changes for update 5 thread in General Disscussion (though it may have been moved to lama as the thread was up before the release notes and lama server activity) and its also where the information for the math comes from.

2) my numbers where not based on effects ... i am not debating dps lag with you ... i am debating physics checks lag which as per eladrin is the largest contributing factor to lag .... and is the reason for the twf nerf and the glancing blows while moving nerf being made.

3)again you dont listen ... turbine will never agree with a player openly on forums when they tell them they are wrong .. they never have ... they never will ... so if your waiting for turbine to prove me RIGHT ... i offer you a counter of .... WAIT TILL TURBINE PROVES ME WRONG ... they cannot because i based my calcualtions on information they gave me .... the simple fact that mobs and players make the same physics checks .... as stated by eladrin

There is nothing to prove wrong cause there is nothing wrong being stated...

4) CONTROL???

look buddy i dont really care what you think ... or what you say .. .but when you say i fabricated numbers to make my point seem valid that is pointless agression on your part ... not mine

forums are there for everyone to talk and if i offer numerical proof that physics checks are higher per player in solo missions rather then in raids ... the numbers are the proof ...

again

if you think you can prove me wrong using numbers please do ...

I am very open minded ...

you seem pretty closed minded as you refuse to accept the truth that hierlings add to the physics checks and that multiple instances cause more checks to be made based solely on the fact that there are more active mobs ...

and you should learn to back your words up rather then call others liers or claim they are doctoring facts.

if your such a math nerd ... then why is it that i can prove my statements and back them up with elementary school math and you cannot prove me wrong with all your limitless knowledge in math??

I have nothing but high school education ... all my work experience is in sales and accounting ... no computer or engineering experience at all....

I based my numbers on the facts presented ... DEV confirmed facts ...

i didnt even get into instancing for anything other then physics checks ... cause if i wanted to prove that i only have to tell you to open multiple games at once on your computer and try running them actively .... try playing two games forget three or four ... lag will be there ....

shoot trying playing this game and download 5 or 6 movies or tv shows at the same time...

the more instances active on a server the more work for the server ... .that is common sense it doesnt take a dev to state that to make it fact.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 02:09 PM
I have never said either of you are wrong either. Your multiplying is just fine. To me "proof" is a serious thing and neither of you have presented any in my opinion. Hirelings may very well be causing server stress that only manifests itself in some raids for other people. Removing them because you believe that to be true, bad idea IMO. If Turbine says it will help I am cool with that. If they say removing the troublesome raids would help more, would you guys be cool with that? What if they say people use hirelings more than they do the lagging raids?

if anyone who has played any mmo thinks grinding for highest possible stats and damage is not the most common factor in an MMO then I dont know what is ....

the hunt for better loot is what makes MMO's popular in comparison to regular video games ... the fact that the hunt never ends is the reason why people choose to pay sub fees for mmos rather then the one time price for a video game that has an ending.

I wouldnt want turbine to make changes just cause i say so !!!

that would be a little ego centric ... i simply suggest the obvious lag fix .... because the proof shows hierlings add to server load for calculations based on dev comments .... it means the devs know this but are trying to find other ways to limit lag without destroying the solo factor from there mmo cause lack of being able to solo was a big issue before the exidous of mod 9.

people like to solo ... shoot i spend more time lately soloing myself ... i dont need hierlings cause i am good enough player to do it myself ... cause i used to solo back before hierlings and have the skills to do so ...

if turbine did agree you wouldn't be cool with it ... cause it means you couldnt solo with ease ... and i wouldnt blame you for being angry either ...

you would be justified as someone who is a big hierling user.

just like i would be justified for hating twf changes as my two main characters are twf spec'd.

if they found a way to remove SHROUD, DRAGON and TOD without removing the chance to get the loot and without allowing people to party in large groups which adds the most important element to an MMORPG the social element (hence the MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE party ... which doesnt suggest solo friendly at all and the fact that MMO's cater to soloers is beyond dumb and only a cash catch sell out from the genre .. which i understand cause in the end its a business ... and businesses sell out to who ever makes them money) I would be fine with it ...

if i could grind out shroud ingredients in a slayer area or grind out shroud ingredients through 6 man missions with the same ease and frequency as i could in shroud i would be glad to lose the raid because of its lag .. .

if i could get TOD rings in missions rather then have to do the raid ... i would be glad to lose the raid because of the lag...

if i could get red dragon scales and epic dragon helm without doing dragon raid i would love it ... dont do the raid now cause i hate it ....

you are confusing the want to hang out with large group of people and the want for the best loot available with the individual missions ...

no one cares about the individual missions they want the 12 man experience and they want the uber loot .... dont care what they have to do to get it ... they just want to get it.

Ironforge_Clan
06-15-2010, 02:14 PM
I agree that removing hirelings is the way to go. If it helps with cutting down on certain situations of lag that is great, but more importantly it will get this game back to its core. That's right remove the hirelings so people are forced to once again group or go back to true soloing.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 02:21 PM
I agree that removing hirelings is the way to go. If it helps with cutting down on certain situations of lag that is great, but more importantly it will get this game back to its core. That's right remove the hirelings so people are forced to once again group or go back to true soloing.

especially since dungeon scaling and casual make it easy to solo with just cure serious pots ...

i mean if they want a plat sync that is it ... think about how much more it costs to buy pots rather then a hierling contract.

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 02:24 PM
I agree that hireling add to physics checks. Of coarse they do. It is nothing compared to a player IMO. Players use way more abilities, faster than mobs or hirelings. I think as you add players to an instance it likely add load/stress exponentially rather than directly because of what human being choose to do. Turbine is nerfing TWF to combat lag even though it is largely unpopular. Why wouldn't they remove Hirelings if they they thought it would help? Oh right, they are so concerned with not admitting they are wrong. Do you think we faked the moon landing?

I think it is a bad idea to remove hirelings, you do not. The evidence you have presented does not convince me. I do not care one bit if I convince you or Cyr. It just doesn't matter to me. If Turbine ends up deciding you are right and removes hirelings I will give you a public apology, I promise I am that kind of guy. I would prefer a less drastic solution if they find hireling to be major cause of lag similar to the DPS nerf or DA.

DA doesn't stop zerging, I can zerg just fine. In a couple of dungeon I have some trouble but for the most part, there are dungeons that I can race through for excellent XP/loot per time spent. It only cuts down on zerging a little bit, but DA does slow down the player, who's speed an action are what I blieve to be more critical to the issues. I think 6 people zerging in one instance is way worse than 1, just my opinion. The DPS nerf effect DPS a little bit, you will still be able to play. They did not completely remove TWF or zerging with their changes so why suggest completely removing Hirelings? Well...I know why, but you do not want me talking about things like that.

Cyr
06-15-2010, 02:33 PM
I have never said either of you are wrong either. Your multiplying is just fine. To me "proof" is a serious thing and neither of you have presented any in my opinion. Hirelings may very well be causing server stress that only manifests itself in some raids for other people. Removing them because you believe that to be true, bad idea IMO. If Turbine says it will help I am cool with that. If they say removing the troublesome raids would help more, would you guys be cool with that? What if they say people use hirelings more than they do the lagging raids?

No where have I implied that hirelings cause DPS lag. I have stated that they require more calculations then a player playing alone. This means more hirelings = more resources used server wide. This means more server strain. It is that simple. This would reduce server lag which manifests as rubber banding as it's most horrid and obvious example. This is the same sort of thing that DA was meant to address.

Mag you are arguing like this is just going to happen because I say so :) It's not. Maybe someone at Turbine takes a look into it. Best case someone reads the whole thread and similar threads and finally reaches the decision point that these incremental band aid fixes that cause the players lots of pain is the wrong approach and they shift gears to stream line code and increase the available resources (server quality as well as caps on server/client interaction that seem to occur exactly when dps lag occurs for example).

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 02:35 PM
if anyone who has played any mmo thinks grinding for highest possible stats and damage is not the most common factor in an MMO then I dont know what is ....

the hunt for better loot is what makes MMO's popular in comparison to regular video games ... the fact that the hunt never ends is the reason why people choose to pay sub fees for mmos rather then the one time price for a video game that has an ending.

I wouldnt want turbine to make changes just cause i say so !!!

that would be a little ego centric ... i simply suggest the obvious lag fix .... because the proof shows hierlings add to server load for calculations based on dev comments .... it means the devs know this but are trying to find other ways to limit lag without destroying the solo factor from there mmo cause lack of being able to solo was a big issue before the exidous of mod 9.

people like to solo ... shoot i spend more time lately soloing myself ... i dont need hierlings cause i am good enough player to do it myself ... cause i used to solo back before hierlings and have the skills to do so ...

if turbine did agree you wouldn't be cool with it ... cause it means you couldnt solo with ease ... and i wouldnt blame you for being angry either ...

you would be justified as someone who is a big hierling user.

just like i would be justified for hating twf changes as my two main characters are twf spec'd.

if they found a way to remove SHROUD, DRAGON and TOD without removing the chance to get the loot and without allowing people to party in large groups which adds the most important element to an MMORPG the social element (hence the MASS MULTIPLAYER ONLINE party ... which doesnt suggest solo friendly at all and the fact that MMO's cater to soloers is beyond dumb and only a cash catch sell out from the genre .. which i understand cause in the end its a business ... and businesses sell out to who ever makes them money) I would be fine with it ...

if i could grind out shroud ingredients in a slayer area or grind out shroud ingredients through 6 man missions with the same ease and frequency as i could in shroud i would be glad to lose the raid because of its lag .. .

if i could get TOD rings in missions rather then have to do the raid ... i would be glad to lose the raid because of the lag...

if i could get red dragon scales and epic dragon helm without doing dragon raid i would love it ... dont do the raid now cause i hate it ....

you are confusing the want to hang out with large group of people and the want for the best loot available with the individual missions ...

no one cares about the individual missions they want the 12 man experience and they want the uber loot .... dont care what they have to do to get it ... they just want to get it.

Making stuff up again, there are studies that show people are pretty widespread about how they play these games. "Most" do not want 12 man missions. Many do, not most. Many people are not in it for the loot, you are, so I can understand why you think that. I am not confusing anything. I find it funny how you say most MMOs cater to the soloer' and how dumb that is. Since they are in the business to make money you might want to consider they know something about their audience that you do not. You are the one who is confusing "you" with everyone or most. I think you might be putting dumb on the incorrect ideas presented in this post (consider yours). I have to thank you for this post, it says so much about you and your ideas I think my work here is done. You made it crystal clear.

Edit: I think I said about 5 times I will be cool with it and handle it like an adult if Turbine decided to remove hirelings. Sorry You missed those, I thought I was clear. :) Cheers

Cyr
06-15-2010, 02:42 PM
I agree that hireling add to physics checks. Of coarse they do. It is nothing compared to a player IMO. Players use way more abilities, faster than mobs or hirelings. I think as you add players to an instance it likely add load/stress exponentially rather than directly because of what human being choose to do. Turbine is nerfing TWF to combat lag even though it is largely unpopular. Why wouldn't they remove Hirelings if they they thought it would help?

Mag I don't know that anyone disagrees that a player > hireling for resource use. That is not the point. The point is that a hireling + player > player OR two players < one player +hireling in one instance and another player+hireling in a second instance. It is the resource use per player.

Your question has a simple answer. Hirelings cater to the casual solo players who Turbine believes makes up enough of their new player base that they need to be catered to. There are lots of changes since EU which indicate this dungeon scaling, hirelings, and casual mode top the list.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 03:03 PM
Making stuff up again, there are studies that show people are pretty widespread about how they play these games. "Most" do not want 12 man missions. Many do, not most. Many people are not in it for the loot, you are, so I can understand why you think that. I am not confusing anything. I find it funny how you say most MMOs cater to the soloer' and how dumb that is. Since they are in the business to make money you might want to consider they know something about their audience that you do not. You are the one who is confusing "you" with everyone or most. I think you might be putting dumb on the incorrect ideas presented in this post (consider yours). I have to thank you for this post, it says so much about you and your ideas I think my work here is done. You made it crystal clear.

Edit: I think I said about 5 times I will be cool with it and handle it like an adult if Turbine decided to remove hirelings. Sorry You missed those, I thought I was clear. :) Cheers


Not making anything up .... what makes an MMO different then a stand alone?

mass multi player .... more then 16 people (standard set by FPS games) able to be on one screen at one time ... this SUGGESTS that the concept is to have as many of these people playing together or against each other all at one time.....

Never ending .... Diablo was the first to prove the popularity of a endless cycle of grinding for loot was profitable and cool extend a games life far beyond that of stand alone video games.

Social interaction is a must when you have large groups of people together playing the same game ...

the thing that has changed in MMO's in the last 6-8 years more then anything is the increase of anti socialism progressing from video game consoles to PC MMO's based on the fact that pc gaming has become more popular in the last 10 years .... and people have decided rather then playing with people they would rather solo ...

the increase in peoples want to solo has caused many MMO's to include it in there game as a valid choice to increase numbers in a highly competitive field ...

I might not know anything about programing but i know a ton about video games ... i have been a video game addict since i was 5 with the intellivison ....

thank god i have an understanding wife ....

I never played UO or EQ cause at the time i was against the idea of paying monthly for a game just to play with others (as i am generally anti social and hate most people) my opinion changed when i started playing swg which i only chose to play cause i like star wars ... and i mainly two manned most of that game .... grinding was silly to me and the pvp was cool but i hate pvp ....

then went to COH/V where i learned the reason why people should want to play together ... you progress faster and since that game had little grind outside of exp it was alot of fun ... no real items ... just power boosts ... but you kept grinding away hoping for a bigger better boost just like you do in this game for loot.

.... while i have never seen a study as to how many individual players from any mmo prefer solo to large group play ... i do know that the hunt for the best possible loot is what keeps people playing the game .. .the only people who dont care about getting the best loot are the types of people generally who either role play and perma death to who the joy is in trying to reach the end game without ever dieing (again popular because of hardcore diablo setting) or people who dont plan to play the game for long anyway ...

name me one mmo where at end game it pays to be gimped or pays to be underpowered?

name me one mmo that doesn't progress in power as you level

and if you can name either of them ... how popular are they .... bet they arent popular at all anymore...... if they ever where ...

the bigger the grind the bigger the population .. .you can see this with WoW.

bbqzor
06-15-2010, 03:10 PM
Theyre not going to remove hirelings. Nor is there any proof hirelings contribute anything towards lag.

You are assuming that the hireling sends as much (or more) data back and forth as a player. And until you post some kind of proof, thats all it is.

It is far more likely they are operated server side just like mobs, only transferring data when the player actually inputs a command (ie, not constantly as a player avatar is).

If you could follow the technical aspects of the weapon process thread or the physics engine checks of the melee feedback thread you would understand why you were wrong.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 03:20 PM
Your question has a simple answer. Hirelings cater to the casual solo players who Turbine believes makes up enough of their new player base that they need to be catered to. There are lots of changes since EU which indicate this dungeon scaling, hirelings, and casual mode top the list.

exactly ... and really if you can take a character to 20 once ... the second time its much easier ... if your just want to solo there are a ton of forum builds out there to make the easiest solo builds ....

self healing ... high dps and other wise

you dont NEED hierlings to solo and two man things ...

i can take the worst cleric in the game and two man gen point on hard (lvl 20 quest) with at level characters ... i have done it with two dark monks and no healing other then pots and rest ability before.

if two people can two man a lvl 20 mission on hard without a healer there is no reason two people couldnt solo a lvl 5-10 mission with lvl 6-12 characters...

if players are bad then really its up to you to beat the mission ..

you also think i dislike hierlings ... or dont use them ever.... your wrong ... i dont need them in most cases but i have used them ... i have used them in 4 man no healing enter the kobold when we took two hierling clerics to beat the mission when we couldn't find a real player to sit at the switch.

all i am stating is that removing hierlings and perhaps adding another valid option to help soloing like easier self healing option would go along way to help minimize lag in the game... without making it so players couldnt solo ...

even though i hate catering to soloing i understand that its a part of the new mmo world.

Drfirewater79
06-15-2010, 03:26 PM
Theyre not going to remove hirelings. Nor is there any proof hirelings contribute anything towards lag.

You are assuming that the hireling sends as much (or more) data back and forth as a player. And until you post some kind of proof, thats all it is.

It is far more likely they are operated server side just like mobs, only transferring data when the player actually inputs a command (ie, not constantly as a player avatar is).

If you could follow the technical aspects of the weapon process thread or the physics engine checks of the melee feedback thread you would understand why you were wrong.


until the thread got to past 164 pages i was active on it ... the combat feedback thread was quite clear on that fact ...

mobs make the same physics check as players ... only contributing factor that has players putting out anything more is swing speed .. something being reduced in update 5 .. .notice i said to make this change for update 6 cause current changes have not effected lag issue in a noticeable fashion as per testing being done on lama ...

more instances active means more mobs means more physics checks ..

which means soloing as a whole adds to lag more then anything ... soloing with a hierling adds more checks which makes it worse then just soloing ...

its not rocket science ...

the proof is in the poison so they say.

but please if you know something we dont (as cyr is also a big part of that thread or was at the time i was still on there and he doesnt seem to feel the same way you do) please post a link or just plan explain so i can understand it better ...

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 04:13 PM
Interesting info on MMOs http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/ good read.

I do not feel Turbine is going to remove Hirelings.

They did not remove Zerging with DA.

They did not remove TWF.

My first character was a cleric. Either my my wife and I always plays a healing class. I rerolled at 10 to a TWF KotC drow Paladin because we found hirelings were kind of cool and different to anything we did in other MMOs. I zerged my way to 10 alone joining fast XP zerg/groups. I zerged just fine, DA rarely impacted me. So i never understand all the hate over it. Without hirelings it was easier to duo with the cleric IMO. 2 TWF melees is not the easier choice but we find it more fun. I think just as many people use hirelings as raiders, if I had to guess I would say more. Most hireling users probably do not use the forum, most HC raiders are forum users in my experience.

Thats why i say they could just as easily change the few raids where there is issues or remove them entirely using the logic presented here, seems just as sound as removing hirelings. I used to be a serious raider and all the raiders I knew, knew within hours when devs made comments on the forums, the soloers in our guilds were always the last to know or even care.

Something Cyr said about re-coding rings true to me and was what I referring to when I mentioned an agenda. I think he is looking to produce a gotcha moment here and surprisingly enough I do not blame him. I think 12 man raids are small and the server loads here is small compared to other games I have played. Even though it would be a much larger fix and who knows maybe it is too huge but in a perfect world I would like to see a major code change that could support larger than 12 man raids and have fast TWF and not worry about hirelings(if they they even cause lag). I think the technology is out there, I do not claim to know if it is cost effective or possible to do at this point for DDO but I can agree that is the best way to go. Suggesting the removal of hirelings just seems a little intellectually dishonest IMO. Dr fire might not know any better but I feel Cyr does. I could be talking out my rear but I feel what I feel.

Chai
06-15-2010, 04:15 PM
The lag has been around alot longer than hirelings have been. While i think no hirelings might help the lag situation, I dont think it would completely fix it.

I think the same thing about gimping our DPS btw...

Chai
06-15-2010, 04:24 PM
Interesting info on MMOs http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/ good read.

I do not feel Turbine is going to remove Hirelings.

They did not remove Zerging with DA.

They did not remove TWF.

My first character was a cleric. Either my my wife and I always plays a healing class. I rerolled at 10 to a TWF KotC drow Paladin because we found hirelings were kind of cool and different to anything we did in other MMOs. I zerged my way to 10 alone joining fast XP zerg/groups. I zerged just fine, DA rarely impacted me. So i never understand all the hate over it. Without hirelings it was easier to duo with the cleric IMO. 2 TWF melees is not the easier choice but we find it more fun. I think just as many people use hirelings as raiders, if I had to guess I would say more. Most hireling users probably do not use the forum, most HC raiders are forum users in my experience.

Thats why i say they could just as easily change the few raids where there is issues or remove them entirely using the logic presented here, seems just as sound as removing hirelings. I used to be a serious raider and all the raiders I knew, knew within hours when devs made comments on the forums, the soloers in our guilds were always the last to know or even care.

Something Cyr said about re-coding rings true to me and was what I referring to when I mentioned an agenda. I think he is looking to produce a gotcha moment here and surprisingly enough I do not blame him. I think 12 man raids are small and the server loads here is small compared to other games I have played. Even though it would be a much larger fix and who knows maybe it is too huge but in a perfect world I would like to see a major code change that could support larger than 12 man raids and have fast TWF and not worry about hirelings(if they they even cause lag). I think the technology is out there, I do not claim to know if it is cost effective or possible to do at this point for DDO but I can agree that is the best way to go. Suggesting the removal of hirelings just seems a little intellectually dishonest IMO. Dr fire might not know any better but I feel Cyr does. I could be talking out my rear but I feel what I feel.


A few things here:

DA is broken because it goes off even on intended encounters with certain numbers of mobs. I have seen full on red alert from nothing in "A New Invasion" simply due to the nature of how mobs aggro through walls, and teleporting mobs. The next time I run the quest, this wont happen, so it seems to be random. DA definately didnt curb zerg plowing quests for xp, heh. We can still roll up a vet status toon on friday and flag it for the shroud on sunday, with no issues.

The technology to have alot of people in a raid has existed for a long time. We used to play EQ1 on P2 333 machines with 512 mb of ram, and had raids that were not instanced. Not only was our guild of 50 players trying to kill a world boss mob, there were two other guilds of 50 players sitting in the same zone waiting for us to complete, or wipe so they could take their shot. We also didnt see the huge lag we see in this game with 12 man raids.

P.S. The new combat system we are getting smacks of EQ, with its offhand proc chance and double attacks.

bbqzor
06-15-2010, 04:25 PM
mobs make the same physics check as players
only contributing factor that has players putting out anything more is swing speed
more instances active means more mobs means more physics checks
which means soloing as a whole adds to lag more then anything
its not rocket science
the proof is in the poison so they say.

I formatted your post into something easier to read which approximates your line of logic. You are saying that since mobs make checks mobs cause lag, so hirelings will add lag.

This does not take into account the packet transfer from the client to the server. The delay in this communication is what lag is. The server doesnt overload, its the talking from server to client that overloads.

The hirelings do not add a significant communication overhead. They are run on the server side exactly as mobs are, unless you issue it a direct command. Having a hireling around is closer to having a mob around than it is a player (which is run wholly client side).

It is more relevant to compare adding a hireling to adding one additional mob in a dungeon, than it is to say youre adding one additional player to a dungeon. Even hirelings set to passive simply do nothing but path, being less of a load than a single mob unless given constant chain commands from the player. And even if given non stop commands they have an extremely finite number of actions, none of which constitute the pile up from current over-hasted multi-proc player issues.

In short, a hireling simply is not a linear increase as you claim it is. Two people with two hirelings in two dungeons is not twice as bad as those two people soloing without hirelings. You are using 1 to 1 ratios with no evidence as such, when there is a large reason to assume there is not.

In short, youre making it up based on 'logic' with no mechanical proof. Until you show a hireling is causing communication demands proportional to a player character, youre very, very likely wrong on the matter. A chain of assumptions does not equate proof. Sorry to burst your bubble.

esoitl
06-15-2010, 05:05 PM
The numbers posted in my example are not unvalidated as the two of you might think ... again I am simply stating the same information already given by dev team in a easy to see fashion ...

what the servers can handle was never in the proof that was given so its irrelevant to the proof.

what i proved without a shadow of a doubt is that the same amount of people one group soloing and one group either raiding or two groups raiding both have substantially less drain on the server as per physics checks alone as they are described by turbine staff.

There is no way to disprove my findings as they numbers are calculated using turbines feedback on the issue....

it simply states the amount of physics checks made by the same number of people in two situations ...

that is how you compare situations ... again its just basic math ...

if it can be proven other wise through similar means please do so ... i welcome people to PROVE me wrong.

I don't have to prove you wrong as you haven't proven a thing.
You made up numbers, good for you.

I agree with you, more people running in more instances adds stress to a server. What you fail to understand is there is more to it than this.


what the servers can handle was never in the proof that was given so its irrelevant to the proof.
Are you simple?
It has a big deal of relevance to your argument.

Even if hirelings add stress to the servers, if it's not stressing them beyond their limits there is no argument.


The numbers posted in my example are not unvalidated as the two of you might think ... again I am simply stating the same information already given by dev team in a easy to see fashion ...
Really?
Making up numbers is restating information given by the development team how?

Hirelings allow people to solo more easily, but that doesn't mean that people do. Just because you made up some numbers doesn't prove anything, I can't say this enough and you can't understand this for the life of you.


it simply states the amount of physics checks made by the same number of people in two situations ...

A hypothetical doesn't state anything, it assumes a lot though.
If those twelve people in a raid actually went out and ran quests individually with a hireling, yes I would agree that there will be more physics checks being made. That makes complete sense.
You cannot however prove that this even occurs, let alone that these checks are burdening the system.

The only way you can prove that hirelings cause any lag is by first correlating hirelings with more instances. After all, two players running a quest together should result in the same number of checks as a player and a hireling. Creating more instances would reasonably create more checks.
However, just because there are hirelings in the game, that doesn't mean people solo exclusively or that there are more instances created because of them.

After proving that correlation exists, you then need to provide some REAL data on the number of extra checks that these extra instances creates. Not just making up a situation and passing it as real, but the actual numbers.

Once you get those, it's then a matter of getting the technical specs of the Turbine game servers to tie it all together.


For your argument to be have merit you need to prove that hirelings create more instances, in turn causing more computations, and that it's these computations that are causing the servers to perform poorly hence creating lag.

This is the lovely thing about debating.
I don't have to prove that I'm right, I just have to prove that you're wrong. Since you have nothing factual to prove anything, it's rather easily done....

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 05:07 PM
A few things here:

DA is broken because it goes off even on intended encounters with certain numbers of mobs. I have seen full on red alert from nothing in "A New Invasion" simply due to the nature of how mobs aggro through walls, and teleporting mobs. The next time I run the quest, this wont happen, so it seems to be random. DA definately didnt curb zerg plowing quests for xp, heh. We can still roll up a vet status toon on friday and flag it for the shroud on sunday, with no issues.

The technology to have alot of people in a raid has existed for a long time. We used to play EQ1 on P2 333 machines with 512 mb of ram, and had raids that were not instanced. Not only was our guild of 50 players trying to kill a world boss mob, there were two other guilds of 50 players sitting in the same zone waiting for us to complete, or wipe so they could take their shot. We also didnt see the huge lag we see in this game with 12 man raids.

P.S. The new combat system we are getting smacks of EQ, with its offhand proc chance and double attacks.

I agree the tech is out there and I did those EQ world boss mobs. I think a code fix would be better however major, I think this is a booming game, investing in it wise. I just do not claim to have a clue what such a fix would entail. I do not feel annoying hireling user by COMPLETELY removing something is a very good idea. I think removing raids is equally silly. Cutting back back on the usefulness of hirelings b y 10-15% if it gave some lag relief would be a no brainer IMO. That is why even though I dislike the TWF nerf, I will live. I hope they find a better solution.

I have died to do DA exactly one time, I have gotten some silly alerts at times that have done nothing. I could agree it isn't a great mechanic. However I have heard it said on the forums by a Turbine employee claiming they have seen facts and know it helps. If it means I am a fanboi for saying I believe the person, so be it.

Chai
06-15-2010, 05:13 PM
Making stuff up again, there are studies that show people are pretty widespread about how they play these games. "Most" do not want 12 man missions. Many do, not most. Many people are not in it for the loot, you are, so I can understand why you think that. I am not confusing anything. I find it funny how you say most MMOs cater to the soloer' and how dumb that is. Since they are in the business to make money you might want to consider they know something about their audience that you do not. You are the one who is confusing "you" with everyone or most. I think you might be putting dumb on the incorrect ideas presented in this post (consider yours). I have to thank you for this post, it says so much about you and your ideas I think my work here is done. You made it crystal clear.

Edit: I think I said about 5 times I will be cool with it and handle it like an adult if Turbine decided to remove hirelings. Sorry You missed those, I thought I was clear. :) Cheers

Yeap, add: if you disagree you are trolling, to the list.

If anyone ever made an mmo that catered to one specific archtype of person they would go out of business.

tanzer
06-15-2010, 05:18 PM
In many cases they are better than players.

sadly you must be running with a bunch of half wit knuckle dragging sloths if hirelings are better than players...

they cant ever keep up to the party <even hasted>, they don't teleport to you with any reliable speed if they get out of range. they almost never throw a heal at the right person, they cant throw firewalls or Blade barriers worth a damn.

and they have about a 1 concentration... they can never get off a cure/heal when getting hit by even one mob..

the tanks run off and have complete garbage for AC/hp and damage..


if hirelings are better than players... find me a firing squad and start lining up the players..


/signed.. boot the gimps

Magusrex777
06-15-2010, 05:43 PM
sadly you must be running with a bunch of half wit knuckle dragging sloths if hirelings are better than players...

they cant ever keep up to the party <even hasted>, they don't teleport to you with any reliable speed if they get out of range. they almost never throw a heal at the right person, they cant throw firewalls or Blade barriers worth a damn.

and they have about a 1 concentration... they can never get off a cure/heal when getting hit by even one mob..

the tanks run off and have complete garbage for AC/hp and damage..


if hirelings are better than players... find me a firing squad and start lining up the players..


/signed.. boot the gimps

Here is how they can be better than players.

They do not AFK.

They do not say dumb **** in voice chat.

They are only concerned with me.

They care nothing about loot.

They are silent when I skip the optional.

They don't complain when I do optional.

If I have to go afk they don't complain.

They don't care if I buff them.

They bring their own pots.

They never run out of ammo.

They tell me how I good I am at DDO.

They really seem to like me

Divine vitality gets me hot

They can't seem to get enough of me

They live only for me

I can get...

Drekisen
06-15-2010, 10:17 PM
/Not signed

Make solo'ing in this game hard again and I guarantee the playerbase population will start to dwindle once more......like it or not......people want to be able to solo when they want. Before hirelings and scaling people had to pretty much be limited to certain builds too solo...that is no fun.

Grouping is great and everything, but if you look at almost every other succesful MMO out there, it's not required to level your character.

It's great that DDO is trying to be different, but trying to be too different is not going to work simply put, hence the change in the structure of the game.

This game is simply too involved when it comes to grouping, and sometimes people just don't have the time to wait around for a group or do not want to do all 9 parts of Threnal in one sitting.

Devonian
06-16-2010, 08:23 AM
/Not signed

Make solo'ing in this game hard again and I guarantee the playerbase population will start to dwindle once more......like it or not......people want to be able to solo when they want. Before hirelings and scaling people had to pretty much be limited to certain builds too solo...that is no fun.

Grouping is great and everything, but if you look at almost every other succesful MMO out there, it's not required to level your character.

It's great that DDO is trying to be different, but trying to be too different is not going to work simply put, hence the change in the structure of the game.

This game is simply too involved when it comes to grouping, and sometimes people just don't have the time to wait around for a group or do not want to do all 9 parts of Threnal in one sitting.

Some excellent points. Lets face it, one of the strengths of pen and paper is you get to play it the way you want. so why exactly when we move it on-line do people start desperately trying to enforce their desired play style? (actually I do get that, competing play styles fighting for limited pool of development time. But it still seems self defeating.)

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 09:17 AM
I don't have to prove you wrong as you haven't proven a thing.
You made up numbers, good for you.

I agree with you, more people running in more instances adds stress to a server. What you fail to understand is there is more to it than this.
.

after reading your reply i only understand one thing about you ...

you have no clue as to what you are arguing about ...

i have only stated the FACT that has been passed down by Eladrin a Developer of DDO stating that PHYSICS checks are a great strain on the server ... THUS anything that ADDS PHYSCS CHECKS to the game ADDS TO THE SERVER LOAD ...

my NUMBERS where not made up at all ... they where an EXAMPLE SHOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO SITUATIONS and showing the amount of CALCULATIONS THE SERVER HAS TO MAKE IN PHYSICS CHECKS ALONE.

please read before you start calling me out ... cause if you have no clue and you cannot prove me wrong then really you have no argument and nothing intelligent to add...

I might not like Magusrex777 way of deflecting but at least he is defending Hierlings because HE wants them kept in the game ... not going out of his way to try to make me look like I am wrong ... he simply doesnt believe what he sees ... I can respect that more then someone who doesn't even seem to understand what the topic is.

Zaodan
06-16-2010, 09:33 AM
The following are indisputable facts:

- 6 players who are soloing Waterworks at the same time create 6 full copies of the quest on the server, with 6 full sets of monsters, and 6 full sets of AI calculations. And if those players each have a hireling, that's just 6 more sets of AI calculations.
- IF the same 6 players were grouped together doing Waterworks, there would be only 1 copy of the quest on the server, with 1 full set of monsters, and 1 full set of AI calculations, and no hireling AI calculations.

Therefore, soloing contributes to server-side lag. The less soloing there is, the less server-side lag there is.

Removing hirelings discourages (but doesn't prevent) soloing.

Therefore, hirelings should be removed to lessen (but not remove) soloing, which will improve game performance.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 09:44 AM
/Not signed

Make solo'ing in this game hard again and I guarantee the playerbase population will start to dwindle once more......like it or not......people want to be able to solo when they want. Before hirelings and scaling people had to pretty much be limited to certain builds too solo...that is no fun.

Grouping is great and everything, but if you look at almost every other succesful MMO out there, it's not required to level your character.

It's great that DDO is trying to be different, but trying to be too different is not going to work simply put, hence the change in the structure of the game.

This game is simply too involved when it comes to grouping, and sometimes people just don't have the time to wait around for a group or do not want to do all 9 parts of Threnal in one sitting.

I DO NOT WANT TO REMOVE SOLOABLITY FROM THIS GAME ....

let me state it again ...

I DO NOT WANT TO REMOVE SOLOABILITY FROM THIS GAME ....

hierlings are not the only way to increase solo ability in a MMO ...

And if you look at every other mmo out there it takes nearly 1000 times the hours to level to cap solo then it does in parties ... this is true in DDO as well ... very few instances can be solo'd in as quick a time as they can be beat in a full party ... very few builds ... and the builds that can do it .... could do it without hierlings ..

hierlings came out at the same time or before casual and dungeon scaling ... so really there is nothing to prove that soloing is any harder without hierlings then with ... only difference is cost of healing and DV's which shouldnt be on hierlings anyway cause they allow people to have unlimited mana if they have more then one contract ... and its even worse with gold seals cause you can have more then one at a time.

I do agree that this game is time consuming in parties ... especially for raids and large quest chains ... alot of people are sick of running some of the content and avoid grouping with people they dont know well for some missions as well making grouping even harder ...

The guild system put in update 5 should fix some of this as people who are not in a guild will not generally beable to take advantage of the system ... this is a way of trying to pull the people together into guilds ....

The fact that they charge premium/f2p people to make guilds needs to be changed as well because this limits the ability to form parties faster ... an issue DDO has had since its launch.

Hierlings however are as i said not the only way to make the game soloable ...

adding better healing potions would remove the need for a hierling ... full heal pots even if expensive (since it really is easy to grind out plat in this game solo) would remove the need of clerical hierlings quit a bit ... adding mana pots to the game ... even if only small amounts of mana and high cost in plat ... offers a play sync and removes the need for DV's from hierlings as they are little more then 20 points a click anyway ... a 100 point spell point recovery pot would go along way ...

the melee hierling is a different story .. .it shard to solo on a bard or young cleric/fvs cause there are little offensive spells at low levels so even unlimited mana wouldnt suffice for soloing ...

this would make it hard to validate removing melee's HOWEVER ... currently on every difficulty other then elite a character with a base of 8 str can take a bulls strength pot and raise there str high enough to hit more then 50% of the time at lvl before +4 items are available at which time there are more then enough crowd control spells and damaging spells available .. since bards can umd wands ... even this is an option ..

HOWEVER ... it also clearly states in the character generator what classes are solo friendly so if you choose to make a bard and do not understand how to make a good solo bard ... it is very hard to solo with one ....

same goes for fighters ...

There are lots of options turbine could use instead of hierlings to INCREASE solo ability in this game while removing Hierlings which add to the Physics Check issues which are bogging down the server as per DEV comments and reasoning behind TWF changes.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 09:52 AM
The following are indisputable facts:

- 6 players who are soloing Waterworks at the same time create 6 full copies of the quest on the server, with 6 full sets of monsters, and 6 full sets of AI calculations. And if those players each have a hireling, that's just 6 more sets of AI calculations.
- IF the same 6 players were grouped together doing Waterworks, there would be only 1 copy of the quest on the server, with 1 full set of monsters, and 1 full set of AI calculations, and no hireling AI calculations.

Therefore, soloing contributes to server-side lag. The less soloing there is, the less server-side lag there is.

Removing hirelings discourages (but doesn't prevent) soloing.

Therefore, hirelings should be removed to lessen (but not remove) soloing, which will improve game performance.


Ladies and Gents ... this is a person who sees reason and understands the basic facts that are being debated here ...

On top of understanding the numbers .... he also understands that removing hirelings discourages but does not remove solo ability.

lessening soloing is a good thing ... removing its ability is a bad one ...

lessening soloing makes grouping faster ... it makes less server lag ...

removing soloing would make people unhappy and leave the game ... so instead of removing the solo option ...

you make soloing easier without hierlings .. by adding better pots to the game and more scrolls (which where taken out to prevent soloing because it made umders over powered and should be brought back to limit need of hirelings)

if you could buy fire wall scrolls would you really need the mana return?

if you could buy blade barrier scrolls would you really need the dv's from hirelings?

further more they should add hightening/max/empower rituals to alter of change so that people can bind and attune a stack of scrolls and increase there power ... or make a ritual to lower a stack of scrolls umd cost

this would make hirelings not needed in DDO and would increase play ability both in solo and full groups ...

esoitl
06-16-2010, 11:30 AM
after reading your reply i only understand one thing about you ...

you have no clue as to what you are arguing about ...

i have only stated the FACT that has been passed down by Eladrin a Developer of DDO stating that PHYSICS checks are a great strain on the server ... THUS anything that ADDS PHYSCS CHECKS to the game ADDS TO THE SERVER LOAD ...

my NUMBERS where not made up at all ... they where an EXAMPLE SHOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO SITUATIONS and showing the amount of CALCULATIONS THE SERVER HAS TO MAKE IN PHYSICS CHECKS ALONE.

please read before you start calling me out ... cause if you have no clue and you cannot prove me wrong then really you have no argument and nothing intelligent to add...

I might not like Magusrex777 way of deflecting but at least he is defending Hierlings because HE wants them kept in the game ... not going out of his way to try to make me look like I am wrong ... he simply doesnt believe what he sees ... I can respect that more then someone who doesn't even seem to understand what the topic is.

All I'm trying to say is pose a plausible argument, supported by data proving hirelings are creating lag, and I'd agree with you.

I've read your posts, so don't say I haven't as you are just making up more and more saying I'm not.
I don't have to prove you wrong until you actually prove your point.


i have only stated the FACT that has been passed down by Eladrin a Developer of DDO stating that PHYSICS checks are a great strain on the server ... THUS anything that ADDS PHYSCS CHECKS to the game ADDS TO THE SERVER LOAD ...
Now this is interesting.
Eladrin and the developers have made a radical change to combat system to TRY and battle lag by removing redundant checks. When a character is standing next to a monster, there isn't enough time between swings, in many cases, for the monster to leave range and therefore making two checks for range are redundant.
That's the whole idea of the combat change, removing redundant checks. Now, since the feedback from Lamannia is that the lag is unchanged by removed half of the checks it is safe to say that there is more to the lag issue than physics checks.


my NUMBERS where not made up at all ... they where an EXAMPLE SHOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO SITUATIONS and showing the amount of CALCULATIONS THE SERVER HAS TO MAKE IN PHYSICS CHECKS ALONE.
Your numbers are made up, because the numbers you posted are assuming that twelve people are soloing with a hireling instead of being in a raid together. That's not a real situation, it's a hypothetical that you created to try and pass of as evidence that hirelings are creating lag.
There could be 12 players who do go out to solo with a hireling instead of grouping but you cannot in any way assume that this is creating checks that are burdening the system. You are assuming that the hireling is active in combat and contributing to additional checks. Also you're assuming that these checks are even being made at the same time.


please read before you start calling me out ... cause if you have no clue and you cannot prove me wrong then really you have no argument and nothing intelligent to add...

This is what I love, you calling me out for not adding anything intelligent and not reading your argument.
Do me a favour, look up 'evidence' and 'assumption' in the dictionary.

You are providing plenty of assumptions that hirelings are creating a lag problem. You have not supplied any evidence however that they in fact do create lag.
I'd actually agree with you if you were making a sound argument and provided the proper evidence of your claim, but you are not so now I'm having some fun pointing out the flaws in your argument.

I in fact have a clue, you do not.
I have proven your argument to be erroneous already, what more do you want me to do? Until you provide the factual evidence that hirelings cause lag there is nothing to prove wrong. Sure, you can post another scenario that assumes a bunch of extra checks being made, but prove to me that these checks are creating lag, and that these extra checks are the result of hirelings.... I know you cannot provide this data, so don't pretend like you can.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 12:17 PM
All I'm trying to say is pose a plausible argument, supported by data proving hirelings are creating lag, and I'd agree with you.

What the numbers show is a direct link between same number of players doing two different actions ... 12 in raid vs 12 soloing with hierlings .... it is a balanced way to show the same amount of people (taking the server numbers out of the question removes quite a bit of uncontrolable factors from the math which cannot be calculated)

I've read your posts, so don't say I haven't as you are just making up more and more saying I'm not.
I don't have to prove you wrong until you actually prove your point.

I have proven that if the same amount of players in a raid where to solo ... they would create more lag based on more then double the amount of active mobs and phsyics checks required for the same end

Now this is interesting.
Eladrin and the developers have made a radical change to combat system to TRY and battle lag by removing redundant checks. When a character is standing next to a monster, there isn't enough time between swings, in many cases, for the monster to leave range and therefore making two checks for range are redundant.
That's the whole idea of the combat change, removing redundant checks. Now, since the feedback from Lamannia is that the lag is unchanged by removed half of the checks it is safe to say that there is more to the lag issue than physics checks.

Actually your wrong here too .... while there is little to show that lag is reduced due to the cause (much like DA) Dev team has never said it isnt helping at all .... they have said that physics checks are the biggest part of the problem when combat changes like TWF and removal of melee alacrity where added ....or subtacted depending on how you look at it ...

redundancy of the checks is why the new system works ... but its not the only reason ... its the frequency of the checks that alacrity was removed to prevent ... and the reason moving glancing blows where removed as well.

Your numbers are made up, because the numbers you posted are assuming that twelve people are soloing with a hireling instead of being in a raid together. That's not a real situation, it's a hypothetical that you created to try and pass of as evidence that hirelings are creating lag.

its a balanced situation ... its not ment to simulate actual in game playstyle .. .simply to state that the same people grouping together cause less load then soloing ... and more of a load when soloing with hierlings PROVES WITOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT HIERLINGS DO MORE TO ADD TO THE LAG ISSUE ... they enable people to SOLO (which shouldnt be discouraged) by adding more physics checks as an EXAMPLE OF ONE THING THAT MAKES THEM A LAG CAUSER ... i am sure there are many other reasons heirlings cause more lag too ... but i cannot comment on them because there are no dev comments to link as facts .... taking a controlled situation controlled number of situations (two largest party and smallest party with higherlings) .. .controlled number of objects/people (same number 12 people in both cases) ... makes it a controlled study ..... it proves that large groups do less to contribute to lag then soloing does ... that is the point and since hierlings add to that number ... it also proves that removing hirelings would lower over all server lag.

There could be 12 players who do go out to solo with a hireling instead of grouping but you cannot in any way assume that this is creating checks that are burdening the system. You are assuming that the hireling is active in combat and contributing to additional checks. Also you're assuming that these checks are even being made at the same time.

even if the hireling isnt in combat ... you simply remove half the numbers ... its a different event .... at least this comment makes sense to the topic so allow me to make the numbers work for you then ...


12 people = 2 parties .... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 20 active mobs for 2 parties with 12 total targets(PC's_)= 12x20 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill = 240 physics checks per swing (two swings a second in some cases)

server load = 240 physics 2 instances

12 people in 12 instances each with 1 heirling each.... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 120 active mobs for 12 parties with 24 total targets (pc and hierlings) = 24x120 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill (at a slower rate of kills per second) = 2880 physics checks per swing (two swings per second in some cases)

server load = 2880 physics checks 12 instances


to this we will add two other number sets ... to make it balanced for you ...

12 people ... in 1 instance (raid group which you claim i did but after looking again it shows quite clearly as two parties not one)

10 active mobs = 12 total targets 12x10 = 120

server load = 120 physics checks 2 instances

12 people in 12 instances each with 0 heirling each.... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 120 active mobs for 12 parties with 12 total targets (pc and no hirelings or hirelings outside of combat) = 12x120 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill (at a slower rate of kills per second) = 1440 physics checks per swing (two swings per second in some cases)

server load = 1440 physics checks 12 instances....



now that adds your numbers for same people in different situations .... still shows hierlings and soloing is the largest cause of lag in DDO today.


This is what I love, you calling me out for not adding anything intelligent and not reading your argument.
Do me a favour, look up 'evidence' and 'assumption' in the dictionary.

Main Entry: 1ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

1 a : an outward sign : indication b : something that furnishes proof :

how this applies is I have given evidence that soloing adds more server load and server load adds to lag based on the facts .... adding hirelings to the mix adds more lag based on the same facts "in instances where they are active" in increasing numbers over the amount of lag generated by full parties ... when the same number of people are considered active.

as·sump·tion [ ə súmpshən ] (plural as·sump·tions)


noun
Definition:

1. something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof
Make no assumptions before looking at the evidence.

2. belief without proof: the belief that something is true without having any proof

in no way applies to the numbers i have given asside from the fact that i used balanced numbers which could be seen as an assumption if someone doesnt understand balanced testing ...

using the same number of people and now even listing every possible situation where 12 people play the same game doing the same number of mobs creating the same number of physics checks per swing is not assumption it is testing ... it is providing the leg for proof to stand on ... something you have yet to counter .... cause you cannot battle facts ... facts are facts ... undisputed ...

perhaps you need to look up the definition of facts

fact (fakt)

noun

1. a deed; act: now esp. in the sense of “a criminal deed” in the phrases after the fact and before the fact: an accessory after the fact
2. a thing that has actually happened or that is really true; thing that has been or is
3. the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth: fact as distinct from fancy
4. something said to have occurred or supposed to be true: to check the accuracy of one's facts
5. Law an actual or alleged incident or condition, as distinguished from its legal consequence

this is a more accurate definition of what i have presented.



You are providing plenty of assumptions that hirelings are creating a lag problem. You have not supplied any evidence however that they in fact do create lag.
I'd actually agree with you if you were making a sound argument and provided the proper evidence of your claim, but you are not so now I'm having some fun pointing out the flaws in your argument.

I in fact have a clue, you do not.
I have proven your argument to be erroneous already, what more do you want me to do? Until you provide the factual evidence that hirelings cause lag there is nothing to prove wrong. Sure, you can post another scenario that assumes a bunch of extra checks being made, but prove to me that these checks are creating lag, and that these extra checks are the result of hirelings.... I know you cannot provide this data, so don't pretend like you can.

you have proven nothing ...

you have not proven my argument erroneous at all ...

the proof that the checks being created cause lag IS IN THE DEV STATEMENTS ... how dense does a person have to be to know the facts before he bashes someones proof ...

you say you are reading the posts but the more you reply the more it shows you dont understand what your reading or where it is coming from ...

i have provided the data if you dont want to see it ... then its your failing not mine buddy...

if you can show me where there is an unbalanced section to the numbers i will fix them to make them more accurate ....

please do ... since you appear to have the ability to do so ...

if you cannot ... then perhaps you should realize the truth and the facts speak for themselves ....

and quit accusing me of doctoring the findings that are nothing more then straight grade 5 math ....

The numbers are not made up ... they are calculated using a balanced study ....

show me how its not balanced and at least then you have some point to make ... but really your replies thus far have been pretty pointless and nothing more then deflections from the truth.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 02:53 PM
hierlings came out at the same time or before casual and dungeon scaling ... so really there is nothing to prove that soloing is any harder without hierlings then with ... only difference is cost of healing and DV's which shouldnt be on hierlings anyway cause they allow people to have unlimited mana if they have more then one contract ... and its even worse with gold seals cause you can have more then one at a time.

adding better healing potions would remove the need for a hierling ... full heal pots even if expensive (since it really is easy to grind out plat in this game solo) would remove the need of clerical hierlings quit a bit ... adding mana pots to the game ... even if only small amounts of mana and high cost in plat ... offers a play sync and removes the need for DV's from hierlings as they are little more then 20 points a click anyway ... a 100 point spell point recovery pot would go along way ...



The first paragraph I COMPLETELY disagree with, the second paragraph I would totally go for as a viable back up option to hirelings.

The fact of the matter is there are some classes I play that can ONLY solo certain things because I have a hireling....I am not talking about builds, I am talking about solid pure classes using the stuff that works.......some of them just cannot self heal enough to be able to do it without a hireling....even on casual. Content like Amarath where you are getting jumped by 10 mobs at once constantly. And unlimited mana, pfft...come on...that is an extreme over exaggeration. How many people are going to buy multiple contracts, dismiss the one they have and wait five minutes just so they can recall back to the beginning of the dungeon to get back 200-300 sp with a new contract. That would take a considerably longer amount of time and would also cost a nice chunk of plat to constantly do, plus you would have to buy a hireling folder just to hold multiple same hireling contracts.....somehow I just don't see many people doing this.

The part about better healing potions, now that is nice, and I would happily forgo hirelings if they had them, the only thing is how long would it be before a better healing potion or one that might even need to be had to solo....how long would it be before those were being sold exclusively in the store. Like how it was said the store would not directly impact gameplay and as we can all obviously see that changes more and more everyday. How long would it be before they created a "Clone Cookie" that lasts for a few minutes so you can park yourself at one spot to get the lever with your other self. I'm sure that would be nice and handy...AND EXPENSIVE! Oh god I have given them ideas :p

There is still the part about some quests being unsoloable without a hireling as well. Honestly, you should not have to make a specific build to successfully solo if you want, it's very limiting and in the end will just push more new players away.

And I am sorry, but unless the vets wanna start dumping 3-4 times the money they do now into the game...we NEED those new players/customers.

I know this is a great group game and all, but the fact of the matter is, soloability is important to a lot of people, somehow this is going to have to be enhanced again if hirelings are removed.

And if people wanna argue that it's just as easy or viable to solo without hirelings....well then people are still going to be solo'ing, so that means your arguement that multiple solo instances being opened is causing all the lag defeats the argument of removing hirelings, because people are just going to keep solo'ing anyways. I mean let's face it, how many people actually let their hireling be attacked or do any fighting, very few........because when left to act on their own they are about the biggest gimps that ever tried to enter the game.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 03:02 PM
/continues rant

Sorry, but if people really want to solo that much they are just going to make builds that can, removing hirelings will not impede this...I fail to see how this suggestion is going to really help matters when it comes to lag.

Magusrex777
06-16-2010, 03:04 PM
No one is arguing about your ability to multiply it is all the assumptions you are making. You have ZERO facts backing you, you are making all your numbers up based on your assumptions about something Turbine has said. Only TURBINE knows if hirelings are causing any extra server load that manifests itself as lag for anyone. Lets talk about 1 person playing with hireling, maybe he is playing slowly, taking time to control his hireling, using shrines and is really causing no stress at all. Now let's say there is a world with no hirelings but the same person is soloing but zerging like a freak and has every mob in the instance on him and is perhaps placing 100x more stress on the server that results in lag for others. Maybe he is in a group with 6 people with everyone going in different directions causing even more stress than he did alone. Maybe PC physic check are more stressful than mob or hirelings check. We just don't know, you are just making stuff up. If Turbine comes out and says hirelings are problem I will buy into it, your claims are nothing more than a guess.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 03:13 PM
No one is arguing about your ability to multiply it is all the assumptions you are making. You have ZERO facts backing you, you are making all your numbers up based on your assumptions about something Turbine has said. Only TURBINE knows if hirelings are causing any extra server load that manifests itself as lag for anyone. Lets talk about 1 person playing with hireling, maybe he is playing slowly, taking time to control his hireling, using shrines and is really causing no stress at all. Now let's say there is a world with no hirelings but the same person is soloing but zerging like a freak and has every mob in the instance on him and is perhaps placing 100x more stress on the server that results in lag for others. Maybe he is in a group with 6 people with everyone going in different directions causing even more stress than he did alone. Maybe PC physic check are more stressful than mob or hirelings check. We just don't know, you are just making stuff up. If Turbine comes out and says hirelings are problem I will buy into it, your claims are nothing more than a guess.

That's what I am saying, even when I have a healbot hireling with me I very seldom go to yellow or orange Dungeon Alert.

You wanna reduce solo instance lag...severly penalize gameplay for people who have no qualms about setting off orange or red alerts.....these are the real perpetrators, and they do it quite often. I mean like make red alert 5 second paralysis or something.....to the point that you can take no actions at all, no swinging, hireling commands, spellcasting, drinking potions......now I bet that will help reduce some lag. I personally can't stand playing with people who go to red alert nor do I ever go to red alert unless by mistake, which is seldom and has more to do with a dungeon design flaw that triggers is prematurely.

The thing about DA is it didn't stop a lot of people from zerging, it gave them a new challenge and a lot of them probably set it off on purpose.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:26 PM
The fact of the matter is there are some classes I play that can ONLY solo certain things because I have a hireling....I am not talking about builds, I am talking about solid pure classes using the stuff that works.......some of them just cannot self heal enough to be able to do it without a hireling....even on casual. Content like Amarath where you are getting jumped by 10 mobs at once constantly. And unlimited mana, pfft...come on...that is an extreme over exaggeration. How many people are going to buy multiple contracts, dismiss the one they have and wait five minutes just so they can recall back to the beginning of the dungeon to get back 200-300 sp with a new contract. That would take a considerably longer amount of time and would also cost a nice chunk of plat to constantly do, plus you would have to buy a hireling folder just to hold multiple same hireling contracts.....somehow I just don't see many people doing this.

The part about better healing potions, now that is nice, and I would happily forgo hirelings if they had them, the only thing is how long would it be before a better healing potion or one that might even need to be had to solo....how long would it be before those were being sold exclusively in the store. Like how it was said the store would not directly impact gameplay and as we can all obviously see that changes more and more everyday. How long would it be before they created a "Clone Cookie" that lasts for a few minutes so you can park yourself at one spot to get the lever with your other self. I'm sure that would be nice and handy...AND EXPENSIVE! Oh god I have given them ideas :p

There is still the part about some quests being unsoloable without a hireling as well. Honestly, you should not have to make a specific build to successfully solo if you want, it's very limiting and in the end will just push more new players away.

And I am sorry, but unless the vets wanna start dumping 3-4 times the money they do now into the game...we NEED those new players/customers.

I know this is a great group game and all, but the fact of the matter is, soloability is important to a lot of people, somehow this is going to have to be enhanced again if hirelings are removed.

And if people wanna argue that it's just as easy or viable to solo without hirelings....well then people are still going to be solo'ing, so that means your arguement that multiple solo instances being opened is causing all the lag defeats the argument of removing hirelings, because people are just going to keep solo'ing anyways. I mean let's face it, how many people actually let their hireling be attacked or do any fighting, very few........because when left to act on their own they are about the biggest gimps that ever tried to enter the game.

I agree its not fair to NEED to have a specific class to solo ... but it is DnD ..

this games lack of role playing makes it impossible for a non aggressive class to solo ...

bards have it bad in this game unless they are warchanter ...

but there isnt much a hireling can do that cannot be remedied with pots ...

healing ... just need more pots ...

casting ... ??? ... if you need something cast that isnt available in pot form ?? well then you should be a caster cause there is nothing you cannot get in pots or clickies or build with umd ... anyone can do it ... it doesnt take high cha to have good umd.

all that stuff can be done without hirelings ....

as for soloing armath ...

come on ... soloing armath ... I solo the missions as an experienced player with alot of gear high umd and a really good understanding of this games mechanics and aggro management .... without hirelings

your average player shouldnt be trying to solo end game content unless they are built to do it ...

no mmo in the world of mmos allows you to solo end game content .. its suppost to be the hardest content available biggest challenge biggest reward ....

that would be like suggesting that raids should be solo able !!!!!

there is no game i know of in the mmo genre that allows you to hit highest possible level with best possible gear without partying at all .. even wow doesnt let you do that .... not even other f2p mmos ....

and if there are 10 out of 400 missions you cannot solo does that ruin the entire game for you???

be real ... if you leave the game because you cannot solo gen point cause someone has to be in the maze or you cannot solo necropolis quest cause you have to pass a key ..

alot of missions are like that today even with hirelings it says hireling may not suffice ..

adding better solo options and removing hirelings makes alot more sense then changing gameplay mechanics and less stressful on server.

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 03:32 PM
I love hirelings. In many cases they are better than players. My wife and I run most dungeons with 2 of them so I hate the idea. We do not really have lag anywhere. I hear some raids are the only places they have lag why not just remove the raids instead of the hirelings? Seems like the same kind of suggestion. I am not being serious in case there is any doubt. Why do I like hirelings? My time is valuable, with their use I never wait I just play. If there is a LFM up for what I want to join we go, if not we use hirelings. We use them a high percentage of the time.

Hirelings are quiet, they do not afk, they have no problems playing my personal heal bot. They don’t complain about anything. They live in a paper folder, I do not have to feed them. They work very cheap, they are a mana batteries. Hirelings stay please tyvm.

No. That would be horrible if raids were removed. Most vets want NEW raids, so that would be totally backwards to remove raids. Raids are pretty much needed to get gear and, in the case of people leveling up, experience.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:36 PM
/continues rant

Sorry, but if people really want to solo that much they are just going to make builds that can, removing hirelings will not impede this...I fail to see how this suggestion is going to really help matters when it comes to lag.

the reason is cause no matter how little hirelings cost more resources .... and if removing hirelings makes it HARDER then less people will do it and decrease server lag.



No one is arguing about your ability to multiply it is all the assumptions you are making. You have ZERO facts backing you, you are making all your numbers up based on your assumptions about something Turbine has said. Only TURBINE knows if hirelings are causing any extra server load that manifests itself as lag for anyone. Lets talk about 1 person playing with hireling, maybe he is playing slowly, taking time to control his hireling, using shrines and is really causing no stress at all. Now let's say there is a world with no hirelings but the same person is soloing but zerging like a freak and has every mob in the instance on him and is perhaps placing 100x more stress on the server that results in lag for others. Maybe he is in a group with 6 people with everyone going in different directions causing even more stress than he did alone. Maybe PC physic check are more stressful than mob or hirelings check. We just don't know, you are just making stuff up. If Turbine comes out and says hirelings are problem I will buy into it, your claims are nothing more than a guess.

what facts am i missing ???

its a controlled COUNT the FACTS where already stated by turbine .. .physics checks are the same for hirelings mobs and PC's

that is a fact already offered by turbine ... its what all the calculations are based on ... what dont you understand about that?

your arguing gameplay style ...

that doesn't makes sense ... that would make it uncontrolled .... so it doesn't make sense to factor in the uncontrollable ...

In my experience solo'rs do more zerging then parties ...

and even zerg parties kill mobs faster which takes the server load down because there is less to control ...

the numbers are accurate because they only deal with the numbers and not with play styles ...

its based on 12 people playing the same style ... everything you have said proves me right for my way of testing ...

my way doesn't force a playstyle on either the individual or the team ...

but i did state teams will do more DPS meaning the mobs die faster which means less Physics checks come from mob end as they die much faster.

the reason i didnt include this in the test is because it throws the numbers off and is balanced by the extra attacks made by players.

since its the same code it doesnt factor ...

there is no guessing ... your counter claims arent balanced .... so you cannot compare one to the other ...

mine are balanced because i didnt put playstyle in the picture ...

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:38 PM
No. That would be horrible if raids were removed. Most vets want NEW raids, so that would be totally backwards to remove raids. Raids are pretty much needed to get gear and, in the case of people leveling up, experience.

he is under the impression more people solo then raid ...

but really he is so far out of touch with the truth that its hard to even understand where he is coming from ... sometimes ... others he is just plain wrong lol.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 03:39 PM
but there isnt much a hireling can do that cannot be remedied with pots ...



This is just absolutely not true.....BETTER potions...yes....more pots....no.

Cure Serious Wounds potions which is the best some classes and builds can do as far as self healing goes just does not cut it once u get to a certain level.

This is comparable to saying that a Drow Sorc with UMD is as survivable as a wizard with a quickened recon spell ready to go.....there is no comparison...the WF'ed wins.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 03:40 PM
the reason is cause no matter how little hirelings cost more resources .... and if removing hirelings makes it HARDER then less people will do it and decrease server lag.






Maybe, I honestly think more people will just quit because they cannot solo anymore and move on to another MMO, where they can....which is large in number.

Basically the way I see it is, any serious reversion back into the way this game used to be will just result in loss of newer players and scare away potential new customers trying the game out.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:42 PM
That's what I am saying, even when I have a healbot hireling with me I very seldom go to yellow or orange Dungeon Alert.

You wanna reduce solo instance lag...severly penalize gameplay for people who have no qualms about setting off orange or red alerts.....these are the real perpetrators, and they do it quite often. I mean like make red alert 5 second paralysis or something.....to the point that you can take no actions at all, no swinging, hireling commands, spellcasting, drinking potions......now I bet that will help reduce some lag. I personally can't stand playing with people who go to red alert nor do I ever go to red alert unless by mistake, which is seldom and has more to do with a dungeon design flaw that triggers is prematurely.

The thing about DA is it didn't stop a lot of people from zerging, it gave them a new challenge and a lot of them probably set it off on purpose.

I agree to this as well ... i hate red lighting ... but the sad thing is DA is still broken ... you can red light without zerging in DDO ... happens all over vale and armath

also red lighters tend to solo ... often leaving hierling at the front of the mission so they can d door to them if they need.

I agree completely about red lighters but rather then increase DA which is broken turbine should put more DOORS and remove DA completely ... with doors that require a couple seconds to open mobs can come from behind cast and kill someone who is not killing mobs ....

this would also make it easier to solo as it would increase the amount of safe spots allowing you to self heal ...

putting in more doors and adding tools to solo while removing hirelings would eliminate quite a bit of lag from DDO.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree to this as well ... i hate red lighting ... but the sad thing is DA is still broken ... you can red light without zerging in DDO ... happens all over vale and armath

also red lighters tend to solo ... often leaving hierling at the front of the mission so they can d door to them if they need.

I agree completely about red lighters but rather then increase DA which is broken turbine should put more DOORS and remove DA completely ... with doors that require a couple seconds to open mobs can come from behind cast and kill someone who is not killing mobs ....

this would also make it easier to solo as it would increase the amount of safe spots allowing you to self heal ...

putting in more doors and adding tools to solo while removing hirelings would eliminate quite a bit of lag from DDO.

I don't know about DA being broken, I hardly ever get red lights......if it's happening because people are doing it purposely, then a more severe penalty needs to happen when they set it off.

I suggest doing this to reduce lag before removing hirelings.

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree to this as well ... i hate red lighting ... but the sad thing is DA is still broken ... you can red light without zerging in DDO ... happens all over vale and armath

also red lighters tend to solo ... often leaving hierling at the front of the mission so they can d door to them if they need.

I agree completely about red lighters but rather then increase DA which is broken turbine should put more DOORS and remove DA completely ... with doors that require a couple seconds to open mobs can come from behind cast and kill someone who is not killing mobs ....

this would also make it easier to solo as it would increase the amount of safe spots allowing you to self heal ...

putting in more doors and adding tools to solo while removing hirelings would eliminate quite a bit of lag from DDO.

What exactly does Dungeon Alert do that makes people compain about it so much? I've had red a few times but it hasn't made us wipe or anything.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:50 PM
This is just absolutely not true.....BETTER potions...yes....more pots....no.

Cure Serious Wounds potions which is the best some classes and builds can do as far as self healing goes just does not cut it once u get to a certain level.

This is comparable to saying that a Drow Sorc with UMD is as survivable as a wizard with a quickened recon spell ready to go.....there is no comparison...the WF'ed wins.

I didnt say with current pots ... we already stated that i agree we need better pots to make it possible for comfortable soloing ... but even with cure serious ... depending on gear and enhancements you can recieve alot of healing from cure serious ...

on my halfling monk i can get up to 47 hps back from a cure serious pot low end 28 ish

my halfling monk with a cha base of 8 has 33.5 umd and can umd heal scrolls on a 6 or higher (fail on 1-5)

it doesnt take a drow sorc to heal yourself with scrolls ... and this is the issue ... alot of people want to solo without the tools needed ...

take two levels of rouge if your not confident as a pure class ... i am a pure dark monk with a 33.5 umd .. .in update 5 it will be 34.5 (meaning i can heal scroll on 5-20) and that is with no special monk stuff ... just umd feat gloves from titan (if you use rabbit hat its only 2 less subtract 5% per rank to figure it out)

and as someone with a drow wizard i can tell you warforged aint got nothing on me ...



Maybe, I honestly think more people will just quit because they cannot solo anymore and move on to another MMO, where they can....which is large in number

There is nothing i am suggesting that says remove soloing from the game ... I suggest removing hirelings which cause higher calculations

even if its only in some cases that is alot of cases ...

if they include better healing options for non healing classes like full heal pots with 10 second cool down ...

they would be better then hirelings and cause less lag ....

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:52 PM
What exactly does Dungeon Alert do that makes people compain about it so much? I've had red a few times but it hasn't made us wipe or anything.

it gets gradually worse ...

no effect on green

slightly slower movement on yellow

then more drastic movement and attack speed and damage on orange

and the most extreme on red

most people who RED LIGHT ... are casters and rangers who can jump to an unreachable spot and fire wall or range down the mobs till there DA goes away ...

this is what causes the worst kind of server lag ... but again small instances don't see it while large ones do.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 03:54 PM
I don't know about DA being broken, I hardly ever get red lights......if it's happening because people are doing it purposely, then a more severe penalty needs to happen when they set it off.

I suggest doing this to reduce lag before removing hirelings.


I got red light soloing bastion of power yesterday on my monk ... i kill everything .. take pride in killing everything ... and as a monk and using umd for healing you really cannot afford to red light ...

i survived but all it took was a jump at the wrong spot and i agro a portal upstairs as well as the room i am in and wham red light ... didnt last long thank god ... but there it is all the same.

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 03:58 PM
it gets gradually worse ...

no effect on green

slightly slower movement on yellow

then more drastic movement and attack speed and damage on orange

and the most extreme on red

most people who RED LIGHT ... are casters and rangers who can jump to an unreachable spot and fire wall or range down the mobs till there DA goes away ...

this is what causes the worst kind of server lag ... but again small instances don't see it while large ones do.

Oh so the lag is why everyone complains about it?

esoitl
06-16-2010, 04:01 PM
fact (fakt)

noun

2. a thing that has actually happened or that is really true; thing that has been or is
3. the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth: fact as distinct from fancy

Drfirewater79, I agree with your numbers IN THEORY.
Look at this definition you provided, especially number 3.


3. the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth: fact as distinct from fancy

In order to make your argument valid, you need to show that there really are more instances and that these instances are due to hirelings.

Sure, hirelings make doing a quest by yourself easier, but that does not mean that people solo any more than they did before hirelings existed.


12 people = 2 parties .... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 20 active mobs for 2 parties with 12 total targets(PC's_)= 12x20 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill = 240 physics checks per swing (two swings a second in some cases)

server load = 240 physics 2 instances

12 people in 12 instances each with 1 heirling each.... 10 active mobs per encounter within a single instance means 120 active mobs for 12 parties with 24 total targets (pc and hierlings) = 24x120 physics checks per swing decreasing per kill (at a slower rate of kills per second) = 2880 physics checks per swing (two swings per second in some cases)

server load = 2880 physics checks 12 instances
This is of course assuming:
A) There are 10 monsters in each instance
B) All 10 monsters and all players are actively involved in combat

If you still think that this is providing facts, you are sadly mistaken. You are making up numbers to try and validate your argument, which I can understand but you are assuming too much to make them useful.


now that adds your numbers for same people in different situations .... still shows hierlings and soloing is the largest cause of lag in DDO today.
Does it?

You still have not shown the correlation between hirelings and increased rate of soloing, which is essential to validate this statement.

So please, if you cannot understand that your numbers are not fact and making assumptions isn't proof, let this topic die like it should have long ago. The sheer amount of data you would need to sift through and analyze to make such a claim would be staggering.

esoitl
06-16-2010, 04:17 PM
it gets gradually worse ...

no effect on green

slightly slower movement on yellow

then more drastic movement and attack speed and damage on orange

and the most extreme on red

most people who RED LIGHT ... are casters and rangers who can jump to an unreachable spot and fire wall or range down the mobs till there DA goes away ...

this is what causes the worst kind of server lag ... but again small instances don't see it while large ones do.
That's funny because I was running Bloody Crypt last night and in order to make it run quicker I was gathering undead and turning them together, often getting the dungeon alert up to yellow... and yet there was no lag.

Shortly before this, I was running Crypt of the Shadow Knight and experienced a large amount of lag when encountering 3 monsters.

If Dungeon Alert indeed causes lag, like you say, then why did I experience lag when I met 3 monsters and no alert as opposed to running through a dozen and getting a level 2 alert?


Oh so the lag is why everyone complains about it?
I wouldn't say that.
It's that many established tactics have been changed to become invalid or that due to game mechanics, fights working as intended have become (sometimes) much more difficult.

Devils and Orthons are noted for detecting players through walls and this adds to the alert level. If a group of monsters spawns as normal, this can cause the dungeon alert to be set off and the monsters to debuff players making a normal encounter that's easily winnable a difficult task.

I enjoy the fact that it prevents parties from rushing through a dungeon(think Tangle Root when running the the inner fortress), but when it gets set off on normal, working encounters it really exposes some of the flaws of the system.

I don't think there is an established and proven link between Dungeon Alert and server lag, so saying people hate it because of the lag it causes probably isn't true.

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 04:17 PM
In order to make your argument valid, you need to show that there really are more instances and that these instances are due to hirelings.

Sure, hirelings make doing a quest by yourself easier, but that does not mean that people solo any more than they did before hirelings existed.


wow what game do you play buddy???

its the biggest issue people have with me suggesting removing hirelings ... everyone taking that side of keep hirelings is saying so cause they want to solo or short man quests ....

before hirelings only the best of the best with top end gear could solo ... its the whole reason hirelings exist dude ...


This is of course assuming:
A) There are 10 monsters in each instance
B) All 10 monsters and all players are actively involved in combat

This is what makes it an even test ... same conditions both sides ... that is what proves its validity


If you still think that this is providing facts, you are sadly mistaken. You are making up numbers to try and validate your argument, which I can understand but you are assuming too much to make them useful.

Does it?

You still have not shown the correlation between hirelings and increased rate of soloing, which is essential to validate this statement.

again i didnt have to everyone who was against removing hirelings in this thread has proved it .. .and Turbine proved it since it was the single reason for adding them


So please, if you cannot understand that your numbers are not fact and making assumptions isn't proof, let this topic die like it should have long ago. The sheer amount of data you would need to sift through and analyze to make such a claim would be staggering.

you still have not proven me wrong at all in fact you bring up fake issues and try to pass them off as disproving ...

my proof is valid cause its balanced ...

not one person has yet brought forth a good reason why hirelings should stay ... in this game ... and i have stated very clearly that removing them would HELP to REDUCE LAG from CALCULATIONS ...

and to help people who would rather solo ... its easy you just add better healing pots ... done and done

Magusrex777
06-16-2010, 04:18 PM
Drfirewater79, I agree with your numbers IN THEORY.
Look at this definition you provided, especially number 3.



In order to make your argument valid, you need to show that there really are more instances and that these instances are due to hirelings.

Sure, hirelings make doing a quest by yourself easier, but that does not mean that people solo any more than they did before hirelings existed.


This is of course assuming:
A) There are 10 monsters in each instance
B) All 10 monsters and all players are actively involved in combat

If you still think that this is providing facts, you are sadly mistaken. You are making up numbers to try and validate your argument, which I can understand but you are assuming too much to make them useful.


Does it?

You still have not shown the correlation between hirelings and increased rate of soloing, which is essential to validate this statement.

So please, if you cannot understand that your numbers are not fact and making assumptions isn't proof, let this topic die like it should have long ago. The sheer amount of data you would need to sift through and analyze to make such a claim would be staggering.

We know he is making critical assumptions, do we care if he ever admits it?

Here is the key to all of this, does anyone believe there is a snowball's chance in hell hirelings will be removed based on Drfire's "facts"? Not going to happen, so I'm out :)

Drfirewater79
06-16-2010, 04:18 PM
Oh so the lag is why everyone complains about it?

lol no lag is the reason it was brought in but it didnt work to stop people now they just red light and do the same thing they did before.

smatt
06-16-2010, 04:28 PM
Drfirewater79, I agree with your numbers IN THEORY.
Look at this definition you provided, especially number 3.



In order to make your argument valid, you need to show that there really are more instances and that these instances are due to hirelings.

Sure, hirelings make doing a quest by yourself easier, but that does not mean that people solo any more than they did before hirelings existed.


This is of course assuming:
A) There are 10 monsters in each instance
B) All 10 monsters and all players are actively involved in combat

If you still think that this is providing facts, you are sadly mistaken. You are making up numbers to try and validate your argument, which I can understand but you are assuming too much to make them useful.


Does it?

You still have not shown the correlation between hirelings and increased rate of soloing, which is essential to validate this statement.

So please, if you cannot understand that your numbers are not fact and making assumptions isn't proof, let this topic die like it should have long ago. The sheer amount of data you would need to sift through and analyze to make such a claim would be staggering.


Even attempting to discuss this game with someone who boviously knows more about it inside and out than the peopel who actually design and run it is futile.

DrFirewater79...... The god of all that is DDO knowledge and facts..... I salute you! :rolleyes:

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 05:38 PM
if they include better healing options for non healing classes like full heal pots with 10 second cool down ...

they would be better then hirelings and cause less lag ....

I totally love this idea....it would also give people more incentive to make higher HP builds instead of trying to get by with 6-8 con gimps.

I would hope they would do something like make healing amp tier one and two available for all classes kind of like what they did for racial toughness.

vVAnjilaVv
06-16-2010, 05:42 PM
It would be nice if we could get an official response from a Dev stating just how much hirelings are responsible for lag.

If it has more to do with numerous solo instances being open at once and not so much the hirelings, I still say this whole argument is moot.

People will just resort to builds that can solo without them or quit....I really don't see this helping.

esoitl
06-16-2010, 06:56 PM
wow what game do you play buddy???

its the biggest issue people have with me suggesting removing hirelings ... everyone taking that side of keep hirelings is saying so cause they want to solo or short man quests ....

before hirelings only the best of the best with top end gear could solo ... its the whole reason hirelings exist dude ...
Presumably the same game you do.
You're basing the entire opposition on the testimony of a handful of individuals? Some have voiced their opinions here supporting hirelings because of soloing, and that's fine. Just because this same handful have said they solo, doesn't mean the entire population feels the same or there is a significant increase in the rate of soloing.

I must have missed the polling of the entire DDO population that you used to make that statement because I didn't get a vote on it.

And no, that's likely not the reason hirelings were put in the game and not the exclusive use of them either.



'Hirelings could cause lag'
'Hirelings do cause lag'

These sentences are not the same and I hope I don't have to explain the difference to you.
The fact is, you have presented an argument that results in sentence A.




You still have not shown the correlation between hirelings and increased rate of soloing, which is essential to validate this statement.again i didnt have to everyone who was against removing hirelings in this thread has proved it .. .and Turbine proved it since it was the single reason for adding them
Wrong again as I have not argued this at all.

In order to make sentence B above be true, which is what you set out to do with this thread, yes actually you do show such a correlation exists.


You outlined this lovely scenario where 2 instances become 12 but it remains that if these 12 instances are never created then they cannot add to lag. So show me where the rate of grouping is becoming reduced in favour of soloing, thus creating more instances, thus creating the possibility of lag being introduced due to too many instances created because players prefer to solo than group.

I agree that the server has a limit of how many instances can be handled without lag and that more people soloing means more instances. However, if these instances are never created or they are not enough to burden the server to a point of lag, then everyone is presumably happy playing the game as they will.


you still have not proven me wrong at all in fact you bring up fake issues and try to pass them off as disproving ...

my proof is valid cause its balanced ...

not one person has yet brought forth a good reason why hirelings should stay ... in this game ... and i have stated very clearly that removing them would HELP to REDUCE LAG from CALCULATIONS ...

You have made assumptions that are not based on actual data. How you think this is valid is beyond me.
You cannot even prove your own argument, I am merely pointing that out to you but you're too dense and set in your ways to see that you are not providing facts but assumptions that don't prove anything.

People have actually provided better reasons for them to stay than you have for them to be removed.
I don't often use them, but I have before and even two in one instance *gasp* without any lag. I don't believe they were ever implemented solely for the purpose of making soloing more viable as if you used them you'd realize they aren't that effective.
I find they actually make grouping slightly easier as they are better used as a fill in member than having to rely on them as the only other member of your party.


It would be nice if we could get an official response from a Dev stating just how much hirelings are responsible for lag.

If it has more to do with numerous solo instances being open at once and not so much the hirelings, I still say this whole argument is moot.

People will just resort to builds that can solo without them or quit....I really don't see this helping.
I'm sure Turbine is too busy to sift through the amount of data required to give an actual answer to this. There are so many factors involved it would be mind numbing. Not only would you have to examine and sift through all this you'd have to try and pinpoint the factors causing lag and somehow attribute those factors to hirelings.
Even attributing soloing to hirelings would involve some mind reading as who is to say that player wouldn't solo anyways without the hireling, but they choose to use one to cut down on resources?


I totally love this idea....it would also give people more incentive to make higher HP builds instead of trying to get by with 6-8 con gimps.
As much as I hate some of the trends of this game, this is one that I fully endorse. A 6-8 CON character needs only to level up to realize it is gimped. Once said character gets one shotted more than once in a quest and the Cleric refuses to raise said character, I think they'd get the hint. With the advent of myDDO, someone will see the obvious flaw in character creation and point it out to them.

More powerful healing pots are not needed to expose someone with a low CON.

Drfirewater79
06-17-2010, 09:07 AM
I dont know why you think you need to put every single factor in to see how more instances = higher lag .....

I dont know why you think you need to put every single factor in to see how more instances + an AI controlled hireling = higher lag ...

I never once stated that hirelings cause ALL THE LAG ...

I never once stated that hirelings COULD NOT be used for something other then soloing ..

The numbers i gave simply show that more calculations come out of soloing and hireling use when the same number of players are the main factor.

There is no other factor that is needed to be considered ... ITS BALANCED for pete sake ....

What BALANCED factors can you add ... I removed all variables that are not balanced ... class ... race .... stats ... weapon type ... gear .... all things that change from player to player are not in the numbers ... because they dont add or subtract from the numbers that matter the physics checks ...

if i calculated twf into the mix all it does is double the numbers ON BOTH SIDES so its irrelevant ....

----------
HOWEVER TURBINE HAS STATED MANY TIMES

Physics Checks are some of the most stressful checks on the server ... combat feedback thread

Hirelings where added to HELP people solo with ease because the lack of solo ability was hurting the player numbers .......(pretty sure it was in the thread where they mentioned hirelings where coming some time just before DDO:eu) and this was stated as a way to prevent people from needing to wait for full parties to do things ...
---------

Unfortunately Turbine doesn't have the gull to stand up for itself and say "Yes Hirelings cause lag ...but we aren't removing them cause they are high on player want list."

I would be fine with that too ... but they never will admit that something they have done has directly caused a game malfunction ...

they never have owned up to there mistakes and prolly never will

its sad ..

And really if my numbers where that far off ... considering they only show an example of how one type of check is calculated in a FAIR and BALANCED situation all four situations vs same amount of mobs ....

please list the BALANCED things i am missing from my numbers i am glad to do the work to readjust ...

but i am 100% sure that no matter how many stupid factors you add in soloing with hirelings will add to more checks then a full party ... no matter how you deal it out ... same number of people same situations and full party = less checks period ... that is what i proved and you guys dont seem to understand this ...

all i proved is the shear number of calculations generated by the different situations the same 12 players could be in at the same time ...

does that mean that everything is that balanced in game NO OF COURSE NOT .... that would be stupid ...

but it does show that no matter how many solo/ solo w/hirelings instances there are .... its still adds more load to the server then full parties do ...

that should be a brain dead obvious thing .... but you guys just dont get it.

Drfirewater79
06-17-2010, 09:13 AM
It would be nice if we could get an official response from a Dev stating just how much hirelings are responsible for lag.

If it has more to do with numerous solo instances being open at once and not so much the hirelings, I still say this whole argument is moot.

People will just resort to builds that can solo without them or quit....I really don't see this helping.

I dont see them removing hirelings ...

they bring in money especially people who have admited to buying 4 or 5 gold seals so they can have a whole party without living people ..

personally I dont understand why anyone would play this game with 5 hirelings ... you have to pay for them here ... go to guild wars you can have a whole party for free no monthly fee and no side fee.

this game has lost the achievement feel ... I solo cause i can say on my monk i can do sins of attrition on hard solo with no hirelings ... as an achievement.

still prefer to play in a party ... even in a party where everyone is a total noob ... cause taking a full party through sins hard and completing it regardless of there skill shows my skill ...

esoitl
06-17-2010, 11:39 AM
please list the BALANCED things i am missing from my numbers i am glad to do the work to readjust ...
I have already said previously that your example makes some sense.

However, just because people *can* solo doesn't mean that they do.
If the 12 people in your example actually went out and grabbed a hireling to solo, then you would have a point.

Until you can prove that this happens, your scenario only exists on the forums, not in the game.


You have nowhere proven that the rate of soloing has increased and that this increase has been due to hirelings.
If more and more people solo without hirelings, there is still an increase of instances which *could* cause lag, but that doesn't mean Turbine should step in and disallow people to solo. If, in this case hirelings are removed, people are still soloing quests and the instances are still being created and nothing is solved.

I fully understand your side of the argument but until you provide some factual evidence that supports what you're trying to argue, you have nothing. The numbers you posted details a hypothetical situation resulting in an increased number of instances because people chose to solo instead of group. You keep harping on the fact that you balanced it but until you can prove it happens it makes no difference and is still not fact.

Drfirewater79
06-17-2010, 12:04 PM
I have already said previously that your example makes some sense.

However, just because people *can* solo doesn't mean that they do.
If the 12 people in your example actually went out and grabbed a hireling to solo, then you would have a point.

Until you can prove that this happens, your scenario only exists on the forums, not in the game.


You have nowhere proven that the rate of soloing has increased and that this increase has been due to hirelings.
If more and more people solo without hirelings, there is still an increase of instances which *could* cause lag, but that doesn't mean Turbine should step in and disallow people to solo. If, in this case hirelings are removed, people are still soloing quests and the instances are still being created and nothing is solved.

I fully understand your side of the argument but until you provide some factual evidence that supports what you're trying to argue, you have nothing. The numbers you posted details a hypothetical situation resulting in an increased number of instances because people chose to solo instead of group. You keep harping on the fact that you balanced it but until you can prove it happens it makes no difference and is still not fact.

ok finally a sound statement ...

so the proof still exsits that hirelings cause more lag based on my numbers ...

the second part would be to prove that more people solo now that there are hirelings in the game then did before ...

that is simple ... to figure out without polling the people

you just have to look at sales for healing hirelings vs sales of heal pots on DDOstore ..

since turbine is releasing more hirelings in update 5 it proves that they are used quite a bit ...

since many people not just on this thread but in many hireling and summons threads have stated that they rather use hirelings then play with noobs ... its safe to say that soloing has increased because of hirelings ..

especially since IT was STATED by TURBINE when THEY added HIRELINGS ...

they said quite clearly that one of the biggest issues people complained about in exit surveys was not being able to solo in DDO past lvl 6 ...

Turbine said quite clearly that they where adding hirelings to help with this issue ...

so we can easily deduce (though this would not be proof just very highly probability of truth) that since turbine is adding more DDOstore contracts and they already added folders to allow people to carry even more hirelings ...

this would show quite easily that hirelings are being used !!!

if they are being used at all ... it means they are taking a spot that could be filled by a player ...

if the increase of hirelings DOESNT decrease the player population ... which it obviously doesnt cause more people play now that hirelings are here then did when they did not exist ... then it is a sound theory that hirelings regardless of in solo or in party add lag

the same numbers i used could be used to prove the same thing with the same people

12 people

2 manning missions without hirelings .. vs 2 manning with 2 hirelings or 1 hireling
3 manning missions without hirelings ...vs 3 manning with 3 2 or 1 hireling
4 manning missions without hirelings ... vs 4 manning with 2 or 1 hireling
and 5 manning without hirelings vs with 1 hireling

all show the same calculations as right .... when the number of players is the same

adding hirelings adds calculations that add to server stress load ... which shows that they add to the lag on the server ...

the load cap doesnt matter ... cause if the servers where not over loaded we wouldnt get server lag ... only client side lag ... which is expected in every PC video game ... even non mmo's.

this means finding ways to make soloing possible without hirelings will REDUCE server load ... making less lag ... .even if its not major reduction ... there cannot be a sound argument to state how hirelings do not cause any server load at all ...

that would be ignorant ...

adding better pots and magical items useable by all classes either in game or through DDO store rather then having hirelings ... makes more sense ... when looking at ways to deminish lag in this game.

esoitl
06-17-2010, 12:30 PM
so the proof still exsits that hirelings cause more lag based on my numbers ...


No, it doesn't.

Hirelings aren't causing an increase in calculations, more instances are.
It's not even sufficient to say that more instances in fact causes any lag at all.

There is a simple experiment that can be done to show this.
Open a program, such as DDO, that will be actively using resources. It runs fine, right?
Now, open another program that will be active and return to DDO. It runs a bit worse, right?
Now open a third program. Unless your computer has a very good processor, you will notice a difference and this is because the processor cannot handle everything at the same time.

Now, if the DDO game servers can handle 1000 instances and the associated checks without problem and only 200 are open, adding another 300 shouldn't make a lick of difference as it can still handle all the checks efficiently.

If it is running 800/1000 instances though and 200 more are created, then it is reasonable to say that the servers are going to have difficulty processing everything and you should see a decline in performance.


It's difficult enough to prove that hirelings are solely responsible for creating more instances. It is nigh impossible to sit where we are and simply state that they are responsible for introducing any lag at all. After all, there was lag well before hirelings ever existed. This isn't something that suddenly sprung up after Turbine introduced hirelings to the game so I'm not sure why you're so anti-hireling...

Zaodan
06-17-2010, 12:50 PM
It's difficult enough to prove that hirelings are solely responsible for creating more instances. It is nigh impossible to sit where we are and simply state that they are responsible for introducing any lag at all.

1. No one said hirelings are SOLELY responsible for creating more instances, not even once. It wasn't even implied. We said hirelings encourage soloing, which creates more instances.
2. It is 100% factually proven beyond all doubt that hirelings introduce lag, simply by the fact that they consume server-side resources. Just because its not always NOTICEABLE, doesn't mean there is no lag.

Again, the following are indisputable facts:
- hirelings make soloing easier
- easier soloing makes more players solo
- more soloing makes more instances
- more instances cause more lag
- therefore, hirelings increase lag

100% irrefutable.

vVAnjilaVv
06-17-2010, 02:18 PM
1. No one said hirelings are SOLELY responsible for creating more instances, not even once. It wasn't even implied. We said hirelings encourage soloing, which creates more instances.
2. It is 100% factually proven beyond all doubt that hirelings introduce lag, simply by the fact that they consume server-side resources. Just because its not always NOTICEABLE, doesn't mean there is no lag.

Again, the following are indisputable facts:
- hirelings make soloing easier
- easier soloing makes more players solo
- more soloing makes more instances
- more instances cause more lag
- therefore, hirelings increase lag

100% irrefutable.

I honestly think that people who like to solo, are going to solo either way....hirelings or no hirelings.

Removing hirelings is not going to help......making Red Alert more severe might tho.

esoitl
06-17-2010, 04:40 PM
1. No one said hirelings are SOLELY responsible for creating more instances, not even once. <- KIND OF THE POINT TO THE ARGUMENT.
It wasn't even implied. We said hirelings encourage soloing, which creates more instances. <- SEE BELOW
2. It is 100% factually proven beyond all doubt that hirelings introduce lag, simply by the fact that they consume server-side resources. Just because its not always NOTICEABLE, doesn't mean there is no lag. <- SEE BELOW

Again, the following are indisputable facts:
- hirelings make soloing easier <- TRUE
- easier soloing makes more players solo <- ASSUMPTION
- more soloing makes more instances <- TRUE
- more instances cause more lag <- POSSIBLE
- therefore, hirelings increase lag <- NOT PROVEN

100% irrefutable. <- WRONG

I've put responses in caps.
There are still too many assumptions that you and I have no way of proving to settle this silly argument.

You cannot come out and claim that the rate of soloing has increased unless you show me the numbers to back up this statement, so where are they?
Even if the rate has increased, it doesn't follow that lag is necessarily created.

Of your 'indisputable facts,' you have one assumption, one theory that has not been proven, and one statement that seems logical, yet without the data at hand isn't true.

If you've played for any length of time you would know that there has been quite a dramatic increase in population.
Lag existed before this population increase. Lag existed before hirelings were introduced.
How do you explain this?



I honestly think that people who like to solo, are going to solo either way....hirelings or no hirelings.

Removing hirelings is not going to help......making Red Alert more severe might tho.

Probably yes. Many people can solo without a hireling and do so fine without one.
Hirelings have limited AI capabilities and therefore can only follow simple orders. Watching some videos of people soloing high level dungeons will reveal that a hireling would be useless in these cases, hence removing them would have no impact on these types of players.

I don't know how making Red Alert more severe would do anything except making solo runs a bit longer though...

vVAnjilaVv
06-17-2010, 05:16 PM
I don't know how making Red Alert more severe would do anything except making solo runs a bit longer though...

Well supposedly once u hit red alert you have multiple actions and a lot of info going on at once........doing something to make this absolutely undesirable even to super powered soloist will help reduce lag I would think.......as it stands now a lot of solo'ist red alert all the time.......because they can handle it and take care of the mobs without dying....it still produces a massive lag spike tho.

Doing something sadistic like making mobs respawn immediately after clearing a bunch of mobs on red alert would make people have to kill more and would give them more incentive not to pull so many mobs at once setting off a red alert.

Not so many respawn that it would trigger another red alert, but enough to hamper them by having to re-kill more enemies thus making it take longer, which as we know, people don't want.

Drfirewater79
10-20-2010, 09:41 AM
I honestly think that people who like to solo, are going to solo either way....hirelings or no hirelings.

Removing hirelings is not going to help......making Red Alert more severe might tho.

Sorry know i said i wasnt starting this up again .. but your actually wrong here ...

removing hirelings WILL help reduce the AMOUNT of soloing ... HOWEVER your 100% right making red alert more severe AS WELL AS REMOVING HIRELINGS would eliminate more soloing and reduce the amount of server side lage quite a bit.

Soloing isnt a problem if you are not red lighting AND not using hirelings. BUT if you are just red lighting ... you are prolly using LESS resources then someone who is using a hireling cause more calculations need to be made physics checks alone make it worse.

Drfirewater79
10-20-2010, 12:32 PM
You missed the part in the release notes about Hireling Lag is now supposed to be fixed?

even if by some chance they did fix it ... I was still right .. hirelings added more lag to the game. Removing them would have reduced lag.

AND ... What they stated doesnt DISprove the FACT that hirelings lead to more instances and are a greater draw on server side resources.

Logic proves that on its own :)

MrkGrismer
10-20-2010, 01:20 PM
even if by some chance they did fix it ... I was still right .. hirelings added more lag to the game. Removing them would have reduced lag.

AND ... What they stated doesnt DISprove the FACT that hirelings lead to more instances and are a greater draw on server side resources.

Logic proves that on its own :)

I believe it is irrelevant as to whether or not hirelings directly lead to more instances because the servers should be able to handle the more instances just fine. Also it was not hirelings per se that added the lag, it was a bug that was causing a request for updateHirelingStatus (whatever that is) to be sent to the client hundreds of times per second. When this type of lag occurred you could mouse over the network status indicator and see it at the bandwith cap (currently around 30K). Basically the pipe was being flooded with useless hireling status requests and not allowing game data to transfer. Assuming this is fixed, as the devlopers have stated, it should lead to a much better gaming environment.

Drfirewater79
10-20-2010, 02:24 PM
I believe it is irrelevant as to whether or not hirelings directly lead to more instances because the servers should be able to handle the more instances just fine. Also it was not hirelings per se that added the lag, it was a bug that was causing a request for updateHirelingStatus (whatever that is) to be sent to the client hundreds of times per second. When this type of lag occurred you could mouse over the network status indicator and see it at the bandwith cap (currently around 30K). Basically the pipe was being flooded with useless hireling status requests and not allowing game data to transfer. Assuming this is fixed, as the devlopers have stated, it should lead to a much better gaming environment.

this is true but the fact that hirelings NEED an UpdateHirelingStatus request at all shows a extra bit of constantly updated code which when multiplied by the number of hirelings in use on any given server is massive.

I agree that if this coding issue was sending a message 100 times per second and that has been limited to 1 time a second or even 1 time every 10 seconds ... it will decrease the lag so much that other lag fixes will be found unneeded ... .of course to change two weapon fighting back to what it was would be pointless now. But it might mean they can give us back SOME of our alacrity especially to ranged bow users and windstance monks and capstone fighters.

MrkGrismer
10-21-2010, 08:44 AM
this is true but the fact that hirelings NEED an UpdateHirelingStatus request at all shows a extra bit of constantly updated code which when multiplied by the number of hirelings in use on any given server is massive.

I agree that if this coding issue was sending a message 100 times per second and that has been limited to 1 time a second or even 1 time every 10 seconds ... it will decrease the lag so much that other lag fixes will be found unneeded ... .of course to change two weapon fighting back to what it was would be pointless now. But it might mean they can give us back SOME of our alacrity especially to ranged bow users and windstance monks and capstone fighters.

I would expect the proper interval to be once per six seconds. It seems pretty standard in ddo, based on the 6-second round apparently, most things hirelings seem to do seems to be set at around 6 seconds in my observation.

I'm not sure what UpdateHirelingStatus does, or if it is a duplicate of a command that is also 'required' for summoned creatures.

The TWF changes where an intentional nerf, and we aren't going to see that come back unless something significant changes.

Hopefully at some point they will stop 'taking a pass' at ranged combat updates. :D