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sirgog
06-11-2010, 12:28 AM
Here's what I feel is needed with respect to higher level content. It's a long post with five main suggestions.


1) A new raid, similar to the Shroud, with similar rewards (possibly using all of the same ingredients, but a few new recipies, and different blanks). Tuned for level 16-19 players on Normal (so similar difficulty to the Shroud), but much more difficult, and much more rewarding, on Hard and Elite.


- This would provide several things. Firstly, an additional source of Large Scales so newer players can start closing the gap on veteran players gear-wise and get themselves Epic-ready in a reasonable timeframe. Secondly, it's more XP for the TRs. Thirdly, it's a way for people that are just sick to death of the Shroud to still get useful loot through doing something new.
- Different blanks could mean blanks with, say, a +2 exceptional bonus to To-Hit instead of the enhanced damage die, or only a +3 enhancement bonus, but an enhanced critical hit profile (this would need to be very carefully balanced).
- The randomness part of the Shroud (which Lieutenants are chosen) could be expanded on. Consider what part 5 would be like if Harry was weaker (say 40% lower damage output and hitpoints), but you fought him and the four Lieutenants all at once, and their auras affected him. A climactic fight like that would be great, and increase the raid's replayability.


2) A new extremely tough raid, tuned as a level 21 raid (similar in difficulty on Normal to what ToD+Suulo is like on Hard). Possibly quite short, like VoD is. Instant gratification loot, like non-Epic, non-Shroud raids, but with a few really cool items that drop only on Hard and Elite, and that have similar power levels to the Epic Spectral Gloves or post-nerf Epic Spell Storing Ring.

- This provides something extremely tough for more powergamer-oriented players to work towards beating. Newer guilds can focus on getting their first Normal completion (and will feel a real sense of accomplishment when they beat it). Top-notch guilds will get to have the sort of challenge we haven't seen for a while, where guilds across multiple servers race for the first successful Hard and Elite completions. If Elite isn't beaten for a month or three, that's a great thing.
- Turbine gains from this too - players will consider TR/LRing to get themselves powerful enough to beat this raid, and also they'll probably use quite a number of mana potions doing it. Even if they are in-game looted mana potions, removing them from circulation will up the price on other in-game ones and indirectly increase store mana potion sales.
- Keep the Shroud-esque randomness out of this raid - just as in Shroud, certain random combinations will be easier than others, and we don't want the first Elite completion to go to the group that gets lucky enough to be first to have the easy combination.
- If rewards exist for partial completion of the raid (as, for instance, exist in ToD and Shroud), make these rewards available elsewhere too (example: ToD part 2 can drop Tokala's Belt, but you can also earn that running Genesis Point).

3) Add quite substantial XP to Epic dungeons and raids, and remove XP decay from repeating Epics. Allow TR1's to enter Epic dungeons at level 19, and TR2+'s to enter Epics at level 18. Consider reducing the minimum level on Epic items to 18.
- This lets those TRs that want to grind XP like mad in easy content keep doing so - while also opening up the option for people that want to challenge themselves in Epics to level up while doing so. XP decay isn't needed, due to the timer.
- Again, level 18 and 19 toons (even those with the benefit of past lives) will use more resources, particularly mana potions, in Epics. Turbine have got to like that.

4) Add four more relatively easy quests around level 17, and four more relatively difficult quests around levels 19-21.
- This covers the areas where XP gets really thin on a TR2, and also helps smooth levelling for newer players, who often find the jump in difficulty from Gianthold to the Vale then again to the Refuge daunting. (Those players should probably go to the Inspired Quarter, but it's not at all apparent to them that the level 18 quests there are easier than the level 16 Vale quests are).
- Again, more difficult 6-person content caters to the significant section of the playerbase that want content that's both really difficult, but doesn't have the blanket immunities associated with raids (and to a lesser extent Epics). If some is Amrath difficulty, some a little easier and some a little harder, it's also a good training ground for Epics, for those that aren't TRing, and still a good source of XP for those that are.

5) Add Epic mode to the four main quests in Gianthold. (Crucible, PoP, Madstone, Gianthold Tor). Tune the flagging quests to be quite accessible (about as tough as VON3 or Wiz-King are on Epic) and tune Gianthold Tor to be an extreme challenge (making the dragons about as tough as Horoth Hard, but you only have six people to deal with them, and you have a giant to deal with too).
- Anyone that beats an Epic dragon should get a regular scale as a consolation prize (if they don't get a flawless scale or a shard). Plus, these chests should drop +4 tomes.
- Make sure players can upgrade the items from PoP, Crucible and Madstone without ever successfully downing a dragon in the Epic Tor. Perhaps have PoP items have their Seals in any chest in PoP epic, and their Shards appearing in the end chest of PoP epic and also in the Gatekeeper's epic chest in Epic Tor.
- I don't see any way to make Epic Reaver's Fate interesting, short of totally reworking the entire raid - better to leave it out and put the shards of raid items into the epic chests guarded by the dragons in the Tor (their seals dropping in any chest in the epic Tor, plus as a consolation prize in otherwise empty Epic Chests in PoP, Crucible and Madstone).
- The traps in epic Crucible should be pretty forgiving, perhaps doing 350 damage with a Reflex DC of 48 for half. Any Improved Evasion toon should be able to make that swim. It's frustrating, and not at all fun, to have to wait ages for someone to try several times on that swim, or to watch a party nearly wipe as all of the non-evasion toons follow the dead evasion toon in. Make the main challenge the fights which everyone can participate in.
- What's in this for Turbine you ask? Mana pot sales, raise cake sales, eladrin statue/rest shrine sales in PoP (which is notoriously shrine-light), and more sales of Amrath/Refuge/IQ as people who only own the Vale and Gianthold buy those packs to get the gear they need to beat the flagging quests on epic. Plus more people TR'ing to get strong enough to beat the Epic dragons, which usually means either sales of True Hearts or of XP potions.

balancetraveller
06-11-2010, 01:00 AM
/signed

When can we see epic level play (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_level) by the way? :D

Mister_Peace
06-11-2010, 01:28 AM
Signed.

As for epic D&D, no MMO could handle that. Epic isn't immunities and larger numbers. Epic is rocket tag with nuclear time machines.

sirgog
06-11-2010, 02:21 AM
Signed.

As for epic D&D, no MMO could handle that. Epic isn't immunities and larger numbers. Epic is rocket tag with nuclear time machines.

I've always thought of pen and paper Epic as 'who can go the longest without rolling a 1'.

Rasczak
06-11-2010, 03:09 AM
Might I suggest a spin off from shroud then. You know the old joy of killing one evil doer only to allow access to another?

Set it up that the Plane of Dolurrh (Undead), Plane of Irian (Plane of light, not always good) or Plane of Kythri (Chaos) is making a move. New storyline which is awesome, can continue on from another storyline (Abbot or Quori maybe), the items crafted can be related to those planes.

Giving new abilities or options to crafted items. I would say though that the shards dropped should be different although agree on the ingredients or at least new ingredients that can be used in place of certain ingredients. So instead of 5 large scales or stones for a min 2 you now use 3 large scales/stones & 2 (new large ingredient). They should have seperation from each other hence my shard difference. You would still need to use shroud altars for shroud crafting but will have new altars for the new crafting in new raid. If the ingredients are interchangeable though then that takes away some grind.

I also agree that the raid needs to be similar to shroud/ ToD with various parts. I love a raid having that big feel to it.

I think a lvl 17 or so quest chain (similar makeup to inspiration quarter) would be awesome. But, I would love it if they could implement new chains with the SoS mechanic. They would have to exclude the lottery side and instead use the Epic mechanic. So many runes let you buy the ability of your choice. And then each chain allows certain items. SoS needs to be changed to this mechanic. The storylines can follow on from existing ones as well as new storylines.

Allow Helms, Boots, Belts, Gloves, Bracers, Cloaks, unique to each chain, to be upgraded in the same way as SoS Armour (with my suggested mechanic not the random one currently) except limit it to 2 tiers so it's not overpowering and not as much of a grind.
Drop items like quori ones with abilities on it and allow us to upgrade 1 slot on it with whatever we want (like epic items) or the uknown ability if needed.

My reason for suggesting this is options and customisation. DDO wouldn't be as much of a grind if players knew what they were going for and knew what was needed to get it. If I need 20 runes for my ability, and there's 6 quests, I have no problem running them to get the runes, if I know what I'm getting (like in epics). Running a chain though, 100 times and never getting what I want (Like SoS can potentially do) I get irritated, demotivated and never want to see the quest chain again.

Add in the option of customising items so if I start building my item, my helm doesn't look the same as everyone elses. Add in skins that support the showing of cloaks, boots and gloves.

sephiroth1084
06-11-2010, 03:26 AM
The new raids should come with Vale-esque flagging quests. The lower level Shroud-like raid could come with another 5 level 16 quests, while the higher level one could come with level 18, 19 or 20 flagging quests (4-6).

The Shroud-like raid could offer armor or shield crafting. Expanding upon the Shroud crafting system, arguably one of the best things Turbine has done with DDO as far as popularity goes, would be an obvious plus, and would plug into other content fairly well. That said, I'm not too thrilled with more content with devils.

The higher level raid could be about as difficult as ToD on normal (lvl 20 raid), but with some real reason to run the quest on Hard or Elite, such as better loot (a la Mindsunder or the Eardweller).

We also need another set of quests at level 15.

Shroud 4 and ToD 2 should be rescripted to alleviate DPS lag, such as by reducing the amount of time a round lasts, or by causing the shadowfiends to be replaced periodically with some adds that have to be taken care of in a more traditional fashion.

I'd be really excited for Epic GH.

The Reaver's Fate should be rescripted with non-air elementals (maybe other giants, or different kinds of elementals like we used to have in the puzzle room), possibly decreasing the time between groups of spawns (maybe have something spawn for every orb ignited, but with fewer monsters at one time).

sirgog
06-11-2010, 03:56 AM
That said, I'm not too thrilled with more content with devils.


I should clarify what I meant by 'similar to the Shroud' - I meant similar in difficulty and keeping the semi-random nature of the Shroud as well (so it's more fun the 50th time you run it).

I never intended to mean 'packed to the rafters with devils'. Demons, undead, giants, quori, humanoid cultists, were-dolphins with friggin' lazers strapped to their backs, dragons, anything could work.

Perhaps a battle with several Greensteel Golems?

Rasczak
06-11-2010, 04:05 AM
Perhaps a battle with several Greensteel Golems?

Please remove this line...I went into a cold sweat just seeing it :p


And for something added that would be this big, I definitely think new monsters are a must-have. When shroud came out it started this devil/orthon fixation so it's time new monsters were released. (I think it was only devil's assault that had them before shroud?)

The upcoming updates show they have the potential to do it so an completely new area (can use the transporter in tower of twelve to get there) with new monsters is definitely demanded.

Deathseeker
06-11-2010, 04:28 AM
If the release notes for U7 looked like your Op, I'd be jumping for joy. Spot on.

I would like to see some new mobs that have resistances / DR tied to different things than metalline/good. Maybe a couple of bosses that are more sensitive to oppositely aligned weapons (one with lawful DR and one chaotic DR). Maybe someting weak against Sonic/Force. And let's see something that is of a different type than the typical favored enemies (undead, outsider, etc).

Basically, gear the quest(s) to bring other aspects of the game into usefullness. Not by just making them immune to the normal stuff like firewall and death spells, but by making them weak against lesser used stuff.

Give us some tough choices to make when considering our builds and weapons, but reward us for knowing the mobs and coming prepared.

chubbs99
06-11-2010, 05:25 AM
I agree. Here's hoping that the U7 Release notes are even 50% as nice as the OP.

As for Shroud 2.0 though, I recall Jerry mentioning a thread on DDOcast a while back where someone mathematically explained why we don't see all the weapons as green steel. being at as there are limited number of combinations available with the base ingredients we have, all of which are obviously being used. So to use the same ingredients may not work depending how its implemented. perhaps they could add 1 static ingredient (ie. small horn or the like), since currently all weapons require an Ore of Travail, and all Accessories require Filament of Toil, "new" items (armor was suggested) this new New ingredient could be used without having to make a completely new set of ingredients.

Rather then an "epic" (DL 21 Raid) however, Personally I'd rather see the loot tables of Epics increased to use a Loot table of DL24, Which I believe Tarrant said doesn't exist. It would only make sense to have Epic Dungeons drop epic loot before a "epic" raid is brought into the game.

Kza
06-11-2010, 05:33 AM
/signed!

sephiroth1084
06-11-2010, 08:29 AM
I should clarify what I meant by 'similar to the Shroud' - I meant similar in difficulty and keeping the semi-random nature of the Shroud as well (so it's more fun the 50th time you run it).

I never intended to mean 'packed to the rafters with devils'. Demons, undead, giants, quori, humanoid cultists, were-dolphins with friggin' lazers strapped to their backs, dragons, anything could work.

Perhaps a battle with several Greensteel Golems?
Well, thematically speaking, things like Large Devil's Scales probably wouldn't make much sense dropping in areas without, you know...devils.

A battle on a plane with angels and such could be interesting, but people get kind of frustrated enough going through Running With The Devils and finding that none of their weapons do any good because the monsters we're fighting are good-aligned. Anything more than 1 quest in a series that features non-evil creatures as primary foes is going to end up really hurting a lot of characters (paladins, folks with greensteel weapons, folks who have an entire collection of weapons with either Holy or Pure Good).

grodon9999
06-11-2010, 08:39 AM
Harry's story isn't done yet, we need at least on more "plot" involving devils. Perhaps you should need to complete tower to "unlock" it.

But yeah, some variety. A Dal Quor invasion could be interesting, "In the Demon's Den" could be part 1 of a demon-invasion saga. Don't forget about the Storm Reaver.

The best Epic quest in the game is VoN6, I say this because it's the only one I've seen where you don't have to cheat to win.

sirgog
06-11-2010, 11:58 AM
I agree. Here's hoping that the U7 Release notes are even 50% as nice as the OP.

As for Shroud 2.0 though, I recall Jerry mentioning a thread on DDOcast a while back where someone mathematically explained why we don't see all the weapons as green steel. being at as there are limited number of combinations available with the base ingredients we have, all of which are obviously being used. So to use the same ingredients may not work depending how its implemented. perhaps they could add 1 static ingredient (ie. small horn or the like), since currently all weapons require an Ore of Travail, and all Accessories require Filament of Toil, "new" items (armor was suggested) this new New ingredient could be used without having to make a completely new set of ingredients.

Rather then an "epic" (DL 21 Raid) however, Personally I'd rather see the loot tables of Epics increased to use a Loot table of DL24, Which I believe Tarrant said doesn't exist. It would only make sense to have Epic Dungeons drop epic loot before a "epic" raid is brought into the game.

On loot tables - I think Epics use level 23 loot tables, the same as lootgem-enhanced elite ToD/Dreaming Dark. I could be wrong.

On weapon types - maybe the blanks cold be crafted in a different way altogether; maybe they are just found; I'm not fussed.



The best Epic quest in the game is VoN6, I say this because it's the only one I've seen where you don't have to cheat to win.

Epic VON2 is very easy to beat with no 'dodgy' tactics, no borderline 'dodgy' tactics, and using no tactics that are getting nerfed in Update 5.

kaelis
06-11-2010, 12:11 PM
I Approve of the OP.

Lithic
06-11-2010, 12:13 PM
I would love to get into epics at 18. THen I might have done more than 2 epic runs since epic came out :D

Uryamore
06-11-2010, 12:20 PM
On weapon types

My vote is to add a single new base ingredient, replace the possible vale quest loot that is also vale wilderness loot (don't remember the two quests offhand). This would trivially add many more possible recipes. If it is only used in one manufactured ingredient and that one is used in the smallest division of crafting, that is a dozen new weapon recipes.

chubbs99
06-11-2010, 01:00 PM
On loot tables - I think Epics use level 23 loot tables, the same as lootgem-enhanced elite ToD/Dreaming Dark. I could be wrong.


Could be right, maybe I'm thinking Level 24 or something though. It was brought up in the +2 look announcement. But to me it sounded like the reason Epic drops squat is cause it doesn't have an appropriate loot table, and to me, seems like it uses Normal Difficulty CR level loot tables for the quest.

Crazyfruit
06-11-2010, 01:08 PM
@grodan - None of the epics have to be cheated at all. Your group might be doing them horribly wrong. I'm writing up a tips guide later today for a few people on the Orien server, should I post it on the forums here?

(The old version of OOB was kinda nutso though, they changed it if you haven't played it recently)


On loot tables - I think Epics use level 23 loot tables, the same as lootgem-enhanced elite ToD/Dreaming Dark. I could be wrong.

Their chests are quite a bit worse actually :( Not sure if the end ones with the shards are improved

For comparison:

Epic quest chest weapons usually top at 128ish

Level 18/19 quest end reward weapons can be 162ish
With the +2 loot active the ones above were 200k & I know I've seen a 250k somewhere.

Good suggestions IMO :) #3 might help make epics more popular too

Bogenbroom
06-11-2010, 02:53 PM
My understanding is that expansion into the realms of demons and archons is highly likely, especially considering the Battlefield is supposed to be a place where all 3 reside.

I would be thrilled to see content in those arenas...

As far as raid formats and crafting go... as I *hate* greensteel crafting and the forcing of players to run the same damned quest over and over again to do it, I would vote no. If you could at least make it so the flagging quests *could* drop the ingredients as well (maybe small on normal, medium on hard, etc) and/or the associated explorer area, that would be great.

Since chest loots are already counted, you could set it up so looting a chest for the first time in a ransack cycle was the only time you could pull an ingredient outside of the raid.

Additionally... if you are looking at high end content, maybe think about ... you know... dragons? The dragon setup in "Mired" is actually pretty good. Much improvement from the the VoN raid...

... oooo, Velah as a dracolich....

Cyr
06-11-2010, 03:00 PM
I would love to see #3 in particular. The option to enter epics and get unlimited repeat xp on them for TR's is a very smart idea.

Of course we need new raids and a new good crafing mechanic sounds stellar. I would say something with a draco-lich boss would be appropriate for one. Another one I would really like to see is a hydra boss.

Bogenbroom
06-11-2010, 04:58 PM
Of course we need new raids and a new good crafing mechanic sounds stellar. I would say something with a draco-lich boss would be appropriate for one. Another one I would really like to see is a hydra boss.


A hydra would be sweet, but I don't think that should be end-game. Maybe in 10-14 content, but hydras shouldn't be end-game powerful.

Rakian_Knight
06-12-2010, 05:49 AM
A hydra would be sweet, but I don't think that should be end-game. Maybe in 10-14 content, but hydras shouldn't be end-game powerful.

Nonsense (you've never meet a DM as crazy as I am) just throw a twelve-headed pseudonatural Pyrohydra at them. Think a normal 12 headed creature that has fast healing and breathes fire at you and give it DR and SR and Resistance to Acid and Electricity. On top of that it can use true stike (gives itself +20 on one attack) and can turn into a giant mass of tenacles.

*Laughes Insanely*

But my thoughts one the shroud crafting like quest I've always thought an Angelic verson of the shroud would be nice. We have greensteel (the weapons used by the devils) why shouldn't the next step be their enemy? Since we can't be evil we shouldn't be attacking the angels but maybe for completing the quest we can use their forge after picking up varous stuff.

Just my thoughts

~Rakian_Knight

sirgog
06-14-2010, 12:17 AM
But my thoughts one the shroud crafting like quest I've always thought an Angelic verson of the shroud would be nice. We have greensteel (the weapons used by the devils) why shouldn't the next step be their enemy? Since we can't be evil we shouldn't be attacking the angels but maybe for completing the quest we can use their forge after picking up varous stuff.

Just my thoughts

~Rakian_Knight

There's no reason we couldn't be fighting good outsiders. Either the players could be manipulated into it (like Running with the Devils), or the Archons could be being manipulated (either by a fallen angel, or a once-legendary archon hero that has become insane, or has been replaced by an infernal agent), or the Archons could be preparing to 'sacrifice' sections of Stormreach to a perceived 'greater good'.

FluffyCalico
06-14-2010, 12:22 AM
And in reavers replace the single person puzzle (mastermind ages 8 and up from the 80s) with a multi person puzzle.

http://www.bartneck.de/publications/2007/daisy/figures/figure02.jpg

sirgog
06-16-2010, 09:40 AM
And in reavers replace the single person puzzle (mastermind ages 8 and up from the 80s) with a multi person puzzle.

http://www.bartneck.de/publications/2007/daisy/figures/figure02.jpg

But... I like soloing the Reaver to relax after a difficult run of casual Waterworks!

sirgog
06-21-2010, 12:00 PM
A hydra would be sweet, but I don't think that should be end-game. Maybe in 10-14 content, but hydras shouldn't be end-game powerful.

Well - neither should most of the foes we encounter at endgame.

CR 37 gnoll melees generally don't exist in pen and paper either, nor do CR 34 Thrakk Hounds.

Bogenbroom
06-21-2010, 12:51 PM
Well - neither should most of the foes we encounter at endgame.

CR 37 gnoll melees generally don't exist in pen and paper either, nor do CR 34 Thrakk Hounds.

Agreed. One of my larger pet-peeves.

Uryamore
06-21-2010, 03:03 PM
Well - neither should most of the foes we encounter at endgame.

CR 37 gnoll melees generally don't exist in pen and paper either, nor do CR 34 Thrakk Hounds.

Of course they do, class levels and template stacking. Just because your DM was never so sadistic as to make the big-bad-boss a blind, crippled goblin from that old level 2 quest that you let live (and in the meantime it sought revenge by all means possible), does not make it in any way out of place in the 3 and 3.5 rules.