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Hauteclaire
06-09-2010, 11:17 PM
I am sick of all these builds abandoning armor for clothing or just never using armor to begin with. Can you (developers) please rethink this somehow? If i wanted to swing a big sword and wear clothing I'd play a broadsword or dual blade scrapper in City of Heroes ! I picked this game because I love armor and the fantasy thing but tired of all the "good" builds requiring you to wear clothing or robes. I love this game but I enjoy other games over this just because of this armor fact.

Again this is a suggestion to developers, not community members. I don't want any flames or anything. I mean seriously, I love armor and fantasy stuff and 75% of the armor is already ugly as is, but it's better than mc hammer pants or robes. Or at least let us pick the appearance of the armor we want!

AyumiAmakusa
06-09-2010, 11:21 PM
I think its because some builds work better without armor. I have a cleric about level 13 and I just find that wearing robes gives me better effects than some increase to AC which doesn't really help because I have low AC anyway...

Eladiun
06-09-2010, 11:26 PM
I think its because some builds work better without armor. I have a cleric about level 13 and I just find that wearing robes gives me better effects than some increase to AC which doesn't really help because I have low AC anyway...


That's the point isn't it. Armor should have more varied effects and be more effective. Plate armor characters where called tanks for a reason. A guy in a dress dual wielding shouldn't be able to outclass them so heavily in AC.

Rakian_Knight
06-09-2010, 11:36 PM
IMO I believe the entire system of AC should be redone so that having an AC that isn't 80 but maybe have of that would block about half the **** in your direction. I mean seriously when fighters and paladins are wearing dresses and doing more then the fighter in the full plate of the defenders and still getting hit as often as the casters in the back, something is wrong.

MAKE AC MEAN SOMETHING!

~Rakian_Knight

Isolani
06-09-2010, 11:48 PM
I wouldn't mind wearing armor if you could insta-swap it like you can robes/docents/outfits. That's the main reason I don't wear armor on most of my characters. Since I don't even bother trying for a meaningful AC past L12 or so, the insta-swap is all I really care about, and armor can't do it. Armor looks better though.

Khanyth
06-09-2010, 11:56 PM
What's wrong with dragontouched armor?

Missing_Minds
06-10-2010, 12:13 AM
Op, I know you are going to hate this, but even in PnP, clothing was the best way to get high AC. It is just that AC is more balanced in PnP than it is in this game due to the ton of stat bonus we gather.

Autolycus
06-10-2010, 12:40 AM
I agree with the OP. A character should be able to wear heavy armor and use a shield if desired and have a meaningful AC. He shouldn't be required to multiclass, grind for exotic robes, etc. to get a useful AC.

AyumiAmakusa
06-10-2010, 12:42 AM
Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

Autolycus
06-10-2010, 01:00 AM
Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

I agree. I don't have enough experience to suggest a comprehensive fix, but I'll toss in my 2 cents.

I believe that one of the root causes of problems is the inflation of monster stats, hit points, etc. Probably in response to all the magic that characters can obtain.

Unfortunately, this causes some abilities, such as Turn Undead, to be considered useless, and makes mobs to-hits much better and makes their saves versus spells much better. Thus you get into the whole min/max escalation spiral.

I think they need to either tone down a lot of the inflation, or inflate the currently lacking areas to restore balance. This would make a lot of currently "useless" abilities, spells, etc. useful again and re-introduce variety into the game.

dopamine
06-10-2010, 02:11 AM
mc hammer pants, haha nice never thought of them like that :D

AyumiAmakusa
06-10-2010, 02:26 AM
I agree. I don't have enough experience to suggest a comprehensive fix, but I'll toss in my 2 cents.

I believe that one of the root causes of problems is the inflation of monster stats, hit points, etc. Probably in response to all the magic that characters can obtain.

Unfortunately, this causes some abilities, such as Turn Undead, to be considered useless, and makes mobs to-hits much better and makes their saves versus spells much better. Thus you get into the whole min/max escalation spiral.

I think they need to either tone down a lot of the inflation, or inflate the currently lacking areas to restore balance. This would make a lot of currently "useless" abilities, spells, etc. useful again and re-introduce variety into the game.

Well, a little sidetrack here, but IMO, Turn Undead is useless no matter how you look at it. There's just not a lot of quests (other than Delera's, Necro, and some others) that require hordes of undead to swarm at you. Not unless they changed Devil's Assault to Undead Assault anyway.

JPDefault
06-10-2010, 02:29 AM
I may be wrong, but I think this is an effect of the "big numbers syndrome".
At higher levels you have god-like (for D&D standards) stats, and so do monsters. Their to-hit bonus is so high that you either have 60 AC or you're basically naked.
I almost miss THAC0... :(

shadowhop
06-10-2010, 02:37 AM
The problem with ac is that it is all calculated with a d20, so if they lower the attack bonus of the monsters then there are some players who can only be hit if the monsters roll a 20 and that would also be wrong.

I think one of the solutions can be to give heavy armour a damage reduction. Not just the +3 from ademantine but +7 - +10 for a lvl 20 heavy armour for example.

JPDefault
06-10-2010, 03:00 AM
Of course lowering monsters to-hit bonus is not the solution, unless you also lower players max AC.

Giving armour more properties (not just physical DR) instead of simply more AC could work.

I don't remember having nor needing an AC of 60 in D&D, and that too is based on d20 rolls.

Dendrix
06-10-2010, 03:49 AM
The underlying problem here is the achievable differences between characters are greater than 20 and the desire of the referee (system) to hit characters on more than 1 in 20 attacks and present a credible threat.

However people also want to mitigate that and then there is the max ac build vs the dps build, whre the AC differences will span more than 20 numbers.

There are a number of ways of dealing with it, many of which break core D&D rules, and most of which will cause people to scream and shout.

You could have an AC per level caps. Your maximum achievable AC is 20+level (or perhaps 20+ 2*level).

Diminishing returns. have a cap similar to the above, but that's a soft cap and every point of AC above that only provides 1/2 a point of AC. i.e. a cap of 40 ac, a character with 50ac, has an effective 45 ac.

Damage mitigation for AC types - light, med, heavy grant 1/2/3 stacking dr.

pasterqb
06-10-2010, 03:54 AM
So you are saying people in pajamas shouldn't be able to survive better in combat? Well that is just pure poppycock! Look back in history, all the great warriors wore pajamas. /endsarcasm

JPDefault
06-10-2010, 03:55 AM
Good points there, Dendrix.

You could have an AC per level caps. Your maximum achievable AC is 20+level (or perhaps 20+ 2*level).


This could kind of be done without breaking D&D, via Minimum Level requirements.
Of course, some people would yell doom!

shadowhop
06-10-2010, 03:58 AM
So you are saying people in pajamas shouldn't be able to survive better in combat? Well that is just pure poppycock! Look back in history, all the great warriors wore pajamas. /endsarcasm

lol you do remember that samurai for example mostly wore armour(great armour) when the went to battle. ;)

Hauteclaire
06-10-2010, 06:48 PM
I meant that, I think we should be able to change the armor graphic so we can at least LOOK how we want. It is hard for me to word this since my first language is Japanese and not English, but I will try -

It's not that I am talking about historical things (but yes I have seem the Samurai heavy armor here in Japan, it is great), actual AC being meaningful (though I think it SHOULD be) or anything like that, it's that I've read a TON of D&D related books (Ravenloft stuff, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance etc) and then tons of other books that were fantasy of the same setting, watched a lot of ANIME obviously where the characters are well armored and manga, and it's just an iconic image. The really cool armor, carrying swords, killing monsters. There is so many art pieces I have too, modules or guides from this game that on the cover and inside art, warriors etc wearing cool armor, I collect these mostly for the art and the writing. I still have trouble with the rules, but that's something else. Then there is Demon's Souls, Sacred 2, Two Worlds 1/2, Ultima Online, Aion, Lineage 2, countless other games that the people who use swords wear big armor if they want, no penalty because it just makes sense. Like firefighters wear certain gear, martial arts wear certain gear, regular cops from SWAT and all that.

So in a game of this genre, over say City of Heroes, where your character is superpowered so they wear tights (but you can wear armor pieces for looks) and swing swords or maces or whatever, I just want to wear big armor and not suffer from it because it's how I want to look and how it makes sense with the 1000s of pictures (official ones too from guides) i am flipping through right now. In traditional games like this warrior based classes wear armor, not civilian clothing. I just think it would be great if we could pic a graphic, if even for a money fee in the game, or the DDO store too (good way for them to actually make it useful, since all the swords/armor on there are worthless in my opinion.) It would also be nice if the clothing looked cool like say the stuff in Assassin's Creed 2, the Assassin class in Diablo 2, Guild Wars classes, Lineage 2 etc. Even in the LoTR movies Aragon went from leather armor etc kind of look, to heavier armor in the 3rd film at the gates at the end, and it always looked cool. Not MC Hammer pants so he could evade for forks sake! I just don't know why they can't make it cool looking or let us decide how we want our character to look on the outside, regardless of what is "under the hood?" Doesn't LOTRO have this option? I know CoH/V does. I know Two Worlds 2 will (inside info I shouldn't be posting) and I know other games will too. I just think it would be nice, if someone wants to look like the classic armor wearing character, they can do that.

Everyone I see in game looks the same to me. MC Hammer pants or Robes like they are waking up to read their morning paper. It's just silly. I want to SEE (all the time) the full plate armor graphic on my multiclasses that use melee weapons and are more warrior based. I can't afford to get the dragontouched stuff either. I play solo and I play from Japan, I play strange hours, I have to go afk at odd times, so grouping doesn't work for me. I am fine playing solo. Don't want to wear robes or clothing and swing dual swords. I want the armored look.

Sorry if this was hard to follow. I am trying to describe it best I can. I was drawn to this game because of all the novels and other things of this franchise and just fantasy books in general depicting characters, similar to the ones I play in this game, wearing plate armor or chainmail etc. This game isn't Prince of Persia. I'm not Chris Tucker in Rush Hour 2, fighting with melee weapons in clothing, getting stabbed in the chest, but being saved by a thick stack of rolled up money in my jacket pocket. I just want it to be more "warrior-like" in look, based on a lot of the fantasy art. I freaking love the armor in Demon's Souls. You run around and you hear it, it weighs you down in rolls dodges and you feel the "weight" of it and the weapons you swing. I know this game will never have that, but let us visually look how we want. Provide this as a DDO STORE service, or in-game money sink... or just give us the option for free to change the look at a tailor NPC. It shouldn't cost a lot either way. it's bad enough the economy on the server I play is horrible. This would be a great way for the developers to make yet more money off us and put more money back into development. It would also be good for the artists working on the game. I am an artist myself, and you need to push yourself sometimes beyond your limit to reach the next level. Do the artists of this game suck so much as artists, that they can't make attractive looking armor? Are the coders more script kiddies, that they cannot code this feature into the game? I think not, because the game (outside of the armor) is beautiful. So please use your talents, bring us these features. Make more profit for your game too!

Samadhi
06-10-2010, 07:02 PM
I wouldn't mind wearing armor if you could insta-swap it like you can robes/docents/outfits. That's the main reason I don't wear armor on most of my characters. Since I don't even bother trying for a meaningful AC past L12 or so, the insta-swap is all I really care about, and armor can't do it.

This.



If they were to try and change it, I think better DR from armor would be the way to go, but I wouldn't cross your fingers.

azrael4h
06-10-2010, 07:02 PM
Too legit! too legit to quit! Hey hey! :P

Being able to customize armor/equipment is a long desired feature, and one that people would pay for. Sadly, the devs here are completely and utterly disconnected from what their players want. Don't expect it to happen.

Hauteclaire
06-10-2010, 07:06 PM
I don't want to swap, I just want it to look good. NO MORE clothing and Hugh Hefner robes with the sword (heh.) Seriously! If they can't make a feature where we can swap the graphics around, then put some mithral or full plate armor (in look on the store) with robe stats! It's as simple as changing the stat on a graphic ( I could do this myself in many games that have become emulators (not this game - other ones.) Add a tab to the Marketplace for armor like this called Aesthetics Armor. Just make it affordable. I had to stop playing my Paladin I solo, because i can't afford wands, potions and armor repairs. Again I play alone, see why in previous post at the end of page 1.)

Devonian
06-10-2010, 07:20 PM
I would love armour to mean something again.

Perhaps take a leaf from Unearthed Arcana and use optional rules that turn armour from adding ac to adding Damage resistance? Use full at all levels, more intuitive to new players, more visible in combat feedback, and requires no sweeping changes to the ecosystem.

I mean so long as it scaled appropriately it would put things more thematic apt, and praise gygax! There is a guide right in the system. Armour comes in Light, medium, and heavy, so at a level appropriate to its wearing Light armour is Slightly useful, Medium is mostly useful, and heavy is very useful.

Hauteclaire
06-10-2010, 07:26 PM
As long as we can have it look like heavy armor or whatever we like, I'm all for it Devonian! I want that classic look. I need to look at unearth arcana again, thanks for the reminder for me.

They should remove the sword from the logo of this game and put in sewing machine at this point, as it should be the choice weapon for a robe/hammer pants wearing dual weapon user.

Albrecht555
06-10-2010, 07:44 PM
IMHO the problem with AC is that there are too many bonuses that shouldnt exist or stack with eachother (icy and chattering for example). This means that in a d20 system one must have all these items and focus too much on AC in order to have a decent value for most content. Consequently, all other builds must as well have 0AC. This is wrong and breaks the d&d flavor by alot.

One step in the right direction would be removing stacking dodge effects from items and bring most items back on par with eachother, not allowing such high numbers in the first place. This would lead to lowering mobs to-hit and make AC worthwile for many other builds. In fact, is just plain ridiculously that some1 using a +5mithral chain with high dex must as well have 0ac at high levels. Other example is a fullplate user with shield.

Rethink armor, mobs to-hit (use same BAB that PC classes get), remove absurd items that stack dodge ac. D20 system is supposed to be simple not overly complex as its getting with all these crazy items. Other solution would be add penalties/bonuses to type or armors used in different situations, making fullplate highly resistant to ranged atacks and clothes highly vulnerable for instance, or making harder armor types (plates etc) getting special bonus like "resilience": all rolls 1-4 are considered a critical failure against you when rolling for psysical atacks.

Just my 2 cents.

Devonian
06-10-2010, 07:48 PM
As long as we can have it look like heavy armor or whatever we like, I'm all for it Devonian! I want that classic look. I need to look at unearth arcana again, thanks for the reminder for me.

They should remove the sword from the logo of this game and put in sewing machine at this point, as it should be the choice weapon for a robe/hammer pants wearing dual weapon user.

Yeah I know how you feel, and to be honest they could dare a bit more. I mean say what you like about dungeon punk it gave D&D in 3.5 days a certain style. an adventurer should dress half way between a hardcore survivalist, and a renascence mercenary.

And Yes, armour needs to be a part of that.

Varhann
06-10-2010, 08:12 PM
If they added an outfit system, similar to LOTRO, you could look anyway you wanted. I know its fluff, but it would change your "look"

Quikster
06-10-2010, 08:31 PM
so how many people posting in this thread have a high ac fullplate user?

There seems to be a lot of witch hunting going on here and not a ton of factual information.

Having a good ac as a plate wearer, and having solid dps is very possible in this game.

Aesop
06-10-2010, 08:39 PM
The problem with ac is that it is all calculated with a d20, so if they lower the attack bonus of the monsters then there are some players who can only be hit if the monsters roll a 20 and that would also be wrong.

I think one of the solutions can be to give heavy armour a damage reduction. Not just the +3 from ademantine but +7 - +10 for a lvl 20 heavy armour for example.

maybe say half the Armor Bonus as a passive DR

so Full Plate would be DR 4/-

Adamantine Full Plate would be DR 7/-

+5 Adamantine Full Plate would be DR 9/-

Dragontouched would be DR 8/-


or should it only be magic armor and have it give a DR bonus equal to half its total + value with a bonus for category

Light armor -1
Medium 0
Heavy +1
Adamantine +2 stacking bonus

+1 Full Plate would be DR 1/-

+2 FP DR 2/-

Adamantine FP DR 3/-

with +5 Full PLate of Heavy Fort equal DR 8/-

+5 Adamantine FP of Heavy Fort = DR 10/-



To make this at all useful however it would have to stack with othe passive DRs


Another option is to have something like this add to Blocking DR

Couple that with adding in a Automatic chance to Shield Block and you'd have a potent defensive option.

My theory is to have Shield use itself have a base chance to apply a Shield Block when hit and have the Shield Mastery Feats increase that Chance.

Example


Sir Bonk of the Iliketohitthings Bonks... swings his mighty bonking stick at Sir Block of the Doesntliketogethit Blocks

Sir Block is using a shield and thus in this great melee occassionally puts his shield between himself and the bonking stick as a reflexive action, because he Doesn't like to get hit.

On those occassiona that the strike come cleanly at Sir Block he lifts his shield nad interposes it between him and the bonking stick absorbing some of the damage.


more concise example

A is swinging at B
B has a Shield
A would hit B X number of times
B has a Y% chance to block those X hits


I usually say 10% chance base with each of the Shield Mastery Feats adding another 10% Chance and the Defender PrEs adding 5% per Tier and Fighter Capstone possibly adding another 5% for a maximum total of 50%


So with a Level 20 Fighter of the Defensive PrE and Capstone with both Shield Mastery Feats and Dwarven Bonus Enhancements the Total Active Blocking DR would be (Assuming the Shield DR bonus is 15)

10(BAB) + 2(bonus) + 15(Shield DR) + 6(SHield Mastery Feats) + 3(Dwarven) + 3? (Defender) + 10? (Armor) = about 49 Blocking DR

that would apply approximately 50% of the time

Making that character a real tank


Toss in Shield Bash attacks built into the Attack Chain that are improved/increased by the Improved Shield Bash Feat and you have a viable combat style that doesn't suck... in theory

Aesop

Alabore
06-10-2010, 09:24 PM
Don't want to wear robes or clothing and swing dual swords. I want the armored look.

As a fellow non-native speaker, I think your post made sense. :)
If I can't have armoured looks, at least let us pick *cool* looks; I am all about customisation and variation.

For the same reasons you mentioned, I often end up playing DDO solo - and I am deliberately "gimping" some of my characters, because I love their armoured looks better.

...

Speaking of rules, issues with level-inconsistent AC was already there in pencil and paper DnD.
HPs scale with level. AC scales mostly with gear.

Some of the underlying issues have been dealt with in supplements such as Unearthed Arcana's rule variations - maybe with further tweaks to take into account DDO's high level damage bursts, such as those suggested by above poster:

-> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm

AC itself never was a popular concept with most DnD players I've played with.
For them it was a simplistic mechanic to keep number crunching down, but they never connected with it.

Also, the concept itself is already there; it wouldn't be far-fetched, since in DDO shields already provide DR when blocking.
I would be inclined to say, DDO users might be willing to test new AC mechanics, as they might provide more variety and give some viability back to mid-AC builds.

...

As an aside: I cannot understand why devs allowed us to switch robes on the run, while giving us a timer to don armour.
Sometimes I wish I could do that in RL too, and instantly put clothes on, when I'm late for a date...

:D

Gkar
06-10-2010, 09:28 PM
stop dodge bonuses from stacking.
Cap dex AC bonus at 10 in robes

congrats, a better AC range would exist.

Quikster
06-10-2010, 09:37 PM
stop dodge bonuses from stacking.
Cap dex AC bonus at 10 in robes

congrats, a better AC range would exist.

10 is to low. I can hit that on my pure human fighter in fullplate

Hauteclaire
06-10-2010, 10:58 PM
I think also the frustrating thing right now is I want to play a drow character that can solo to the end, isn't a paladin really, uses duals (maybe archery too), medium or higher armor and probably multi class. I guess an elf would do. It's just hard. All these "good" builds require wearing fruit of the loom armor at the end, if it's even playable, and I won't do that. I've been searching for weeks. If armor wasn't an issue I'd be playing what I want on the preferred races I like.

lugoman
06-10-2010, 11:04 PM
The whole DnD armor system doesnt make sense. Whether you get hit or not should be a function of you reflex. How much you get hit for should be a function of your ac. It's also wrong that my level 16 ranger/monk has more ac in robes than my level 20 fighter in full plate.

Hauteclaire
06-10-2010, 11:08 PM
yeah that's crazy and wrong. I don't know what they are thinking with that. I just am tired of all the builds that would probably be fun, where I use swords or whatever to require me to wear and look at robes and gangsta pants. I can't enjoy that. Or knowing about things like you just posted. It just seems wrong.


I agree with the reflex thing.

This is a nice community that this sort of thing can be talked about. I had trouble talking about things on other games forums.

AestorTheKnight
06-11-2010, 12:09 AM
so how many people posting in this thread have a high ac fullplate user?

There seems to be a lot of witch hunting going on here and not a ton of factual information.

Having a good ac as a plate wearer, and having solid dps is very possible in this game.

That is absolutely correct. Thanks for puting it so clearly Quikster. I agree. :)

I have a high AC Plate Wearer. She wears full plate, has a very respectable AC of 70 unbuffed - 80 Raid Buffed.
For her and for other armour AC characters ive played - AC works just fine :) I even find AC to be slightly helpful in Epic.

Armour appearance... well thats just a whole nother story...

Hauteclaire
06-11-2010, 12:51 AM
Yeah but some of these multi builds that are primarily all about swords and weapons but you need robes and it shouldn't be that way. Most everyone I see is wearing robes and balloon pants with these builds. I really wanted to change the graphic. Swinging swords and wearing a robe... but the character is some high end melee dps class, all cause of some evasion skill or something. It's more a visual thing I am talking about. Ah nevermind, I think the point was missed.... other than finding good looking armor in general.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:02 AM
Yeah but some of these multi builds that are primarily all about swords and weapons but you need robes and it shouldn't be that way. Most everyone I see is wearing robes and balloon pants with these builds. I really wanted to change the graphic. Swinging swords and wearing a robe... but the character is some high end melee dps class, all cause of some evasion skill or something. It's more a visual thing I am talking about. Ah nevermind, I think the point was missed.... other than finding good looking armor in general.

I understand wanting a different graphic.

Wearing robes is mostly about the monk class. Other evasion classes can wear armor, but usually dont as they can still get higher ac with the IR.

The problem I have is all the talk that plate wearers cant get high or meaningful ac, or that its simply so much easier for a pj wearer to do it. You guys (those making these statements) can sit around here and stroke each others ego all you want, but getting decent ac in plate is very achievable with a minimum of a grind.

I have both types of ac builds, and to reach the upper limits, both are an extreme grind. There is no easy button when it comes to ac.

karnokvolrath
06-11-2010, 01:12 AM
That's the point isn't it. Armor should have more varied effects and be more effective. Plate armor characters where called tanks for a reason. A guy in a dress dual wielding shouldn't be able to outclass them so heavily in AC.

At this point what Eladiun said is completely right, and its sad.

Not all, but most heavy plate wearers AC is borderline, and alot of robe wearers have similar AC. So it begs to question why wear heavy plate over robes if your AC is meh regardless and the heavy plate hinders so much in the meantime.

When i 1st started playing this game, you could get a decent AC on a sword and board charicters and it was still fun an efficiant. Things now have just gotten silly, my best AC charicter is a ranger rogue...comical because bolth classes down fall is suppost to be AC (ellegidly).

It takes quite a grind, and charicter planning to get a solid AC out of a plate wearer, wich is just silly and wrong, but thats IMO. I miss the days when a dwarf with a shield, good plate, and a d-axe was actually a tank.

Hauteclaire
06-11-2010, 01:26 AM
Yeah, my Paladin Elf twf isn't the greatest for AC. I don't get all the best items or have a lot of money to buy stuff off the marketplace. I want to make a Elf or Drow that is more melee heavy twf too and a multiclass, but the builds I find on the forums end up with people switching to robes or clothing and I just don't want that look. I really just want to look like a warrior and not continuously be forced into robes and clothing to survive. It seems like almost all the multi builds I want to play end up that way. As i said before I just want variety in look.


And this... is SO true!

Originally Posted by Eladiun
That's the point isn't it. Armor should have more varied effects and be more effective. Plate armor characters where called tanks for a reason. A guy in a dress dual wielding shouldn't be able to outclass them so heavily in AC.

What is said above seems like such an obvious problem that should be fixed by the developers. As obvious as say the walk animation playing when the character is running!


With LOTRO being free to play soon, I might just go to that. At least I can change the armor graphics. I don't know if it's solo friendly though, and if not, I wouldn't be able to play it with my schedule and computer habits.

daniel7
06-11-2010, 10:44 AM
You can wear full plate and have a decent ac if you are a fighter or a paladin. Probably half of the people that wear robes and outfits do it b/c their ac is worthless anyways so they would rather have an armor that they can change quickly.

What would be nice is a way to get people to wear unpopular armors, that generally suck, such as scale, splint, chain, elven chain, hide and leather. Perhaps some racial and/or class bonuses with certain armors. These bonuses don't even necessarily have to be ac bonuses.

Gunga
06-11-2010, 10:50 AM
AC is borked in DDO.

IT STANDS FOR ARMOR CLASS.

A Dwarven, high dex fighter in max multiplier Mithral FP and max multiplier Mithral Tower Shield should be at the top of the ARMOR CLASS food chain.

ARMOR class.

ARMOR.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 10:53 AM
so how many people posting in this thread have a high ac fullplate user?

There seems to be a lot of witch hunting going on here and not a ton of factual information.

Having a good ac as a plate wearer, and having solid dps is very possible in this game.

Thing is, most high AC plate users are either Defenders of Siberys or Stalwart Defenders.
Those PrEs alone add a ton of AC. Stal. Def III alone adds +3 AC, +2 from the ToD set, +2 MDB in full plate, and a bunch more from using a tower shield and blocking.

That's a ton of AC that a regular plate user, especially one going THF or TWF, won't have access to.
In other words, high AC plate users are kinda forced to go S&B and pick one of the defensive PrEs - otherwise, it's very, very difficult to reach a meaningful AC that is somewhat easier for the Monks and Rangers to achieve.


The whole DnD armor system doesnt make sense. Whether you get hit or not should be a function of you reflex. How much you get hit for should be a function of your ac. It's also wrong that my level 16 ranger/monk has more ac in robes than my level 20 fighter in full plate.

The whole DND armour system does make some sense, but includes a large number of other variables that DDO doesn't. Surprise/flat-footed where you are denied your dodge bonuses and dex bonuses, for example, would slaughter a lot of pajama-wearers when they suddenly lost 20+ AC as they open the door and a large Minotaur is waiting on the other side, double-axe ready...

Sadly, the downfall of wearing armour, including touch-attacks or attacks the negate armour (think the Necropolis Shadow series), ARE in game. Meaning pajamas get all the bonuses of high AC with no drawbacks or penalties from the AC system DND designed, yet heavy armour DOES get the penalties (including the aforementioned long equip time, whereas pajamas can easily swap their outfits to suit their needs).
Very unfairly skewed right now.

That, and the fact that in PNP DND, not everyone was walking around with 30-40+ stats, which also unfavourably skews things towards wearing pajamas. And that's a whole other can of worms altogether! The fact that you can start a Monk out with 16 Dex and 12 Wis, but end up with 25-35ish range for both stats at endgame is crazy. And that's not using any level-up points either!

Quikster
06-11-2010, 11:08 AM
since when does picking up a pre negate a fighting style? Just because you take defnder doesn't mean you can't take thf feats or twf feats.

My defender has all rhe twf feats, PA, gws, and improved crit.

He self buffs to 76 twf, and can top 100 raid buffed boosted and blocking. I constantly tank twf with PA on dropping my tod set bonus and chattering ring for shintao set bonus. He has a ton of gear, but imo that should be required for the highest ac to handle main tank duties.

An alt with much less gear can still reach a decent ac ac and mitigate significant damage

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 11:20 AM
since when does picking up a pre negate a fighting style? Just because you take defnder doesn't mean you can't take thf feats or twf feats.

Well, those PrEs I mentioned *can* be used in conjunction with TWF or THF, but let's face it, a lot of their bonuses are focused on the use of shields.
And for the Paladins, if you go DoS you lose out of the crazy KoTC damage, as well as possibly not having enough APs for the smite lines. So it doesn't entirely negate it, but you do lose some bonuses at times.

Also, and this has been a strange implementation, but Dwarves can reach 3 better AC in armour than any other race. Very, very unfair IMO. Why are Dwarves alone capable of this? And how can a 300 lb short, bulky guy be so "agile" in armour when the 100 lb light, dextrous Elf that gets a racial +2 dex and has dexterity enhancements, cannot?
Doesn't make sense at all.

They levelled the playing field somewhat with regards to racial Toughness. I think they should do the same with racial armour dex boosts.

AestorTheKnight
06-11-2010, 11:35 AM
Both Quikster and Aerendil are saying it like it is :)

I agree that the Dwarf Armour Enhancment Max Dex Bonus's unfairly favour Dwarves and should be available to Elves and Halflings too.

Gunga
06-11-2010, 11:36 AM
since when does picking up a pre negate a fighting style? Just because you take defnder doesn't mean you can't take thf feats or twf feats.

My defender has all rhe twf feats, PA, gws, and improved crit.

He self buffs to 76 twf, and can top 100 raid buffed boosted and blocking. I constantly tank twf with PA on dropping my tod set bonus and chattering ring for shintao set bonus. He has a ton of gear, but imo that should be required for the highest ac to handle main tank duties.

An alt with much less gear can still reach a decent ac ac and mitigate significant damage

Cool build.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 11:42 AM
Well, those PrEs I mentioned *can* be used in conjunction with TWF or THF, but let's face it, a lot of their bonuses are focused on the use of shields.
And for the Paladins, if you go DoS you lose out of the crazy KoTC damage, as well as possibly not having enough APs for the smite lines. So it doesn't entirely negate it, but you do lose some bonuses at times.

Also, and this has been a strange implementation, but Dwarves can reach 3 better AC in armour than any other race. Very, very unfair IMO. Why are Dwarves alone capable of this? And how can a 300 lb short, bulky guy be so "agile" in armour when the 100 lb light, dextrous Elf that gets a racial +2 dex and has dexterity enhancements, cannot?
Doesn't make sense at all.

They levelled the playing field somewhat with regards to racial Toughness. I think they should do the same with racial armour dex boosts.

So you want to have stellar dps bonuses AND stellar ac bonuses on the same pre?

Make a choice. Going defender doesnt have to gimp your dps. Especially on a paly with ds III and es IV available.

Yes a dwarf gets the option to purchase more mdb. Have you ever done this? Its insanely expensive. 12 AP and 6 points of dex to garner 3 ac. Many builds cannot find a way to fit it in. If you have a dwarf fighter that maxes both, thats over 20 ap and 12 points of dex!

And for your first point last, SD gets + to ac (passive) + to MDB on shields and armor (passive) + to intimidate (passive) + to ac (toggle) + to str (toggle) +to con (toggle) + to hate (passive and toggle) + to saves (toggle) and + to dr when shield equipped (passive) + to shield blocking (passive)

I dont think that qualifies as mostly shield related pre.

r3dl4nce
06-11-2010, 11:53 AM
To the OP... If you want a heavy armor build, go for a dwarf fighter 20 stalwart defender with all 2wf, IC:slash, dodge, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, equip it for AC and you are done. Go with 2 dwarven axes killing mobs, and for those tough bosses just put on your tower shield and Intimidate.

QuantumFX
06-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Also, and this has been a strange implementation, but Dwarves can reach 3 better AC in armour than any other race. Very, very unfair IMO. Why are Dwarves alone capable of this? And how can a 300 lb short, bulky guy be so "agile" in armour when the 100 lb light, dextrous Elf that gets a racial +2 dex and has dexterity enhancements, cannot?
Doesn't make sense at all.

It’s Turbine’s implementation of racial substitution levels from P&P. However, due to the myopic nature of Turbine’s reading of the “Races of…” books we will never see the elven version of armor mastery. (Champion of Corellon Larethian - which would probably have to be renamed “Champion of the Undying Court” to fit Eberron lore.)

Darkrok
06-11-2010, 11:55 AM
From a pure realism standpoint I actually think the AC of a trained fighter should be higher without armor than with. In ddo/pnp AC means your chance to not be hit at all (or to be hit for completely meaningless damage regardless of how hard the strike was). To me that means I either have to be able to dodge or deflect the blow with dodging being the far easier method of avoiding contact.

All of that said AC should not be the only mitigating factor...DR needs to scale better. Ideally (and I know this isn't following pnp rules) different armor would be better against different damage types and they would have percentage AND numeric DR's. For example, high level plate might have dr 5/slashing and dr 25%/slashing. You don't want the numeric-based dr to be too high as it would trivialize a lot of content but at the same time armor should significantly reduce certain types of incoming damage. So if you take a 100 point slashing attack in very good full plate it might actually knock off a huge amount of that damage. But if you take a 6 point hit it's only going to knock off 5 points of damage at that the low end. This would also allow them to have meaningful glancing blows on mobs while at the same time having very powerful dr against larger attacks. I don't pretend to know what numbers would work best but a dual system with numeric and percentage based dr's, with different numbers for each type of damage, would go a long way toward making armor a viable alternative.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 12:01 PM
From a pure realism standpoint I actually think the AC of a trained fighter should be higher without armor than with. In ddo/pnp AC means your chance to not be hit at all (or to be hit for completely meaningless damage regardless of how hard the strike was). To me that means I either have to be able to dodge or deflect the blow with dodging being the far easier method of avoiding contact.

All of that said AC should not be the only mitigating factor...DR needs to scale better. Ideally (and I know this isn't following pnp rules) different armor would be better against different damage types and they would have percentage AND numeric DR's. For example, high level plate might have dr 5/slashing and dr 25%/slashing. You don't want the numeric-based dr to be too high as it would trivialize a lot of content but at the same time armor should significantly reduce certain types of incoming damage. So if you take a 100 point slashing attack in very good full plate it might actually knock off a huge amount of that damage. But if you take a 6 point hit it's only going to knock off 5 points of damage at that the low end. This would also allow them to have meaningful glancing blows on mobs while at the same time having very powerful dr against larger attacks. I don't pretend to know what numbers would work best but a dual system with numeric and percentage based dr's, with different numbers for each type of damage, would go a long way toward making armor a viable alternative.

Yeah % based dr is prolly the best suggestion I have seen.

jwdaniels
06-11-2010, 12:05 PM
It's a numbers problem based off of the to-hit bonuses of the mobs that you fight. If a monster's rolling d20+40 to hit, than any AC less than 42 is the same as 0. If you can't get your AC above that, you might as well not even try. In PnP, it's hard to get an attack bonus above +20 or so (at least in any game I've ever played) because you're not constantly walking around buffed, so an AC in the mid 30s (very doable) is really quite high.

Unfortunately making bonuses not stack changes the fundamental idea behind D&D completely - I think the problem is spell durations that last 1 minute per level (2 minutes with extend spell) being applied in real time when 1 minute in the PnP game is the equivalent of one set of attacks.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
So you want to have stellar dps bonuses AND stellar ac bonuses on the same pre?

Make a choice. Going defender doesnt have to gimp your dps. Especially on a paly with ds III and es IV available.

I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.

Emili
06-11-2010, 12:26 PM
So you want to have stellar dps bonuses AND stellar ac bonuses on the same pre?

Make a choice. Going defender doesnt have to gimp your dps. Especially on a paly with ds III and es IV available.

Yes a dwarf gets the option to purchase more mdb. Have you ever done this? Its insanely expensive. 12 AP and 6 points of dex to garner 3 ac. Many builds cannot find a way to fit it in. If you have a dwarf fighter that maxes both, thats over 20 ap and 12 points of dex!

And for your first point last, SD gets + to ac (passive) + to MDB on shields and armor (passive) + to intimidate (passive) + to ac (toggle) + to str (toggle) +to con (toggle) + to hate (passive and toggle) + to saves (toggle) and + to dr when shield equipped (passive) + to shield blocking (passive)

I dont think that qualifies as mostly shield related pre.
The difference here is it is cheaper on a dwarf... to get minor AC bonus.

Dwarven armour mastery stacks with Fighter armour mastery - and in classes which do not have armour mastery is an option only to a dwarf.

ie. dwarven armour mastery I + fighter armour mastery I = fighter armour mastery II on a different race ... but is one third the expense... 4ap vs 6 ap...

If the dwarf spends 10 ap such they are +3 ... another race as fighter must spend 12 ap for +3 - The dwarf may then take axe damage on top ... the other race may not have the ap for a dps enhancement in that light... while 12 ap on the dwarf gets +4 the other race does not even have that option but is lacking same amount of ap to put into any other attribute...

Result is dwarf is more easily configurable and adjustable as an armoured AC build and granting it AP to actually place in other areas besides ac ... the other race must go AC or go more DPS/etc ... not both. <- less adjustable and less configurable.

Same notes... PrE, defender although placed as a higher AC style build gives up less on the dps side then other PrE's deemed more DPS giving up their options - kensai which gives up nearly all sunbstantial AC for more damage... yet the % of damage output is not the equal of the gap in AC between defender/kensai. i.e. a reputable average ac of a defender in twf mode is between 65-76 yet a kensai in such mode is more like 45-50 in average dps modes (they may turtle down to achieve a 76 but are pushing mostly gear to do so)... a pitance really thus the kensai has near no real effective AC may as well refer to 0% - on the flip side a defender is not 0% dps... one would imagine balance would be that the kensai would be double dps the defender. Kensai <- weapon master it is not really - only by name. ;)

The we can look at the non-armour wearing classes ... do you suppose a ranger (exploiter tempest III per-say) lacks either? No, such builds as that work around the synergies and produce both reputable AC and DPS with one level splashes gives up little and running mid 70's ac with twf...

What is out of balance here? the fighter class PrE's when you really give it some thought. One is set for AC the other set for DPS and the two do not cross unless you go outside the class with splashing deep such as a monster pulling tempest ac/damage and monk ac.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 12:30 PM
The difference here is it is cheaper on a dwarf... to get minor AC bonus.

Dwarven armour mastery stacks with Fighter armour mastery - and in classes which do not have armour mastery is an option only to a dwarf.

ie. dwarven armour mastery I + fighter armour mastery I = fighter armour mastery II on a different race ... but is one third the expense... 4ap vs 6 ap...

If the dwarf spends 10 ap such they are +3 ... another race as fighter must spend 12 ap for +3 - The dwarf may then take axe damage on top ... the other race may not have the ap for a dps enhancement in that light... while 12 ap on the dwarf gets +4 the other race does not even have that option but is lacking same amount of ap to put into any other attribute...

Result is dwarf is more easily configurable and adjustable as an armoured AC build and granting it AP to actually place in other areas besides ac ... the other race must go AC or go more DPS/etc ... not both.


I fully understand the concept of using armor masteries. The point is it still has to be bought. A dwarf can get the same mdb for cheaper (8 instead of 12 ap) But this discussion isnt limited to fighters. Humans can spend their points to get more healing amp then anyone else, wf'd more hate or more pa enhancements then anyone else....see where this is going?

Spoonwelder
06-11-2010, 12:34 PM
I'd suggest they remove the dodge bonuses from AC for anything beyond Dex bonus.

What I mean is AC should reflect only the hack'n'slash'n'block'n'parry part of fighting so it should be about:
1) Armor - for absorbing/deflecting a hit
2) Physical attribute of the fighter (a) Dex to slip a hit (and not totally avoid it but enough to mitigate damage) (b) Strength to absorb(with shield or weapon)
3) Parrying ability - both Dex/Str affect this (underused option in DDO)
3) Experience (Int/Wis/Level as possible modifiers) that allows a character 'insight' into how best to use 1-3 above

I can see the argument that Dodge is buried into a Dex bonus - but if so then leave it there as a Dex Bonus and keep it realistic. IMO if that is the argument then Dodging should also be an active feat that drops BAB massively (even more than defensive fighting - because you are actively trying to avoid being hit not really trying to get a shot in yourself) and even with a Dodge feat on it would only be a bonus % chance to avoid a hit entirely.

Dodge like Evasion should be about AoE and Missle fire. Obviously the above is a massive rewrite to the rules that will never happen and don't really reflect the D&D ruleset soooooo.....

The alternative I would put forward is that we should all stop whinging about **** like this. I know that I know nothing as I am only am through to 16th level and only have an AC of 38-40 with buffs. BUT I am still having a ton of fun with my Full Plate wearing character. I had some awesome looking armor that I traded in for better DR - I regret that decision now. It's a game - it is not a hard game that requires you to make choices between fun/vision of your character versus success and completion of the game. The forum is full of Epic playing Raid focused players - yes to succeed their you need this uber-tweaked character but for the average non-hard core gamer and it isn't necessary to recode the game to allow them the vast majority to have fun. DDO may hate me for saying it but once I play all the content (which will take a few toons a couple of times through longer if they keep adding content at the current pace) I will be done with the game (probably having dropped a couple hundred bucks on the game). Why would anyone grind Epic content for years? Move on - enjoy life - there are new games to try/master and YOU are not defined by how uber your toon is?

Quikster
06-11-2010, 12:37 PM
I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.


So what? If I want stellar trapsmith skills im forced to play a rogue. If I want stellar walls of fire im forced to play an arcane caster, if I want stellar Heals, Im forced to play a devine healer, If I want stellar bow damage, Im forced to play a ranger. I dont see any problem with makeing certain classes, and certain pres preform a certain aspect of the game better than others.


To get a stellar ac, you have to grind for the best gear out there, regardless of class or pre's.

Monks splashes do not obtain 5-10 ac simply by taking a monk level. They gain 1 ac by taking a monk level. If they want more they need to invest points, tomes, item slots into wisdom. At the least its 5 ac with 1 tome, and 1 item slot. DT Plate armor ( very easy to get) +15 armor bonus. How does the 5-10 from your monk splash (5 from mine with 1 tome and 1 item slot) compare with that? Notice if you want +10 ac bonus from a monk splash you need a 9 wisdom mod (+1 for being monk) thats a 28 wisdom. How the heck do you get a stat to 28 without sinking points into it?

Taking a level of monk is not "instant" ac. It requires sacrifices.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 12:42 PM
So what? If I want stellar trapsmith skills im forced to play a rogue. If I want stellar walls of fire im forced to play an arcane caster, if I want stellar Heals, Im forced to play a devine healer, If I want stellar bow damage, Im forced to play a ranger. I dont see any problem with makeing certain classes, and certain pres preform a certain aspect of the game better than others.


To get a stellar ac, you have to grind for the best gear out there, regardless of class or pre's.

Monks splashes do not obtain 5-10 ac simply by taking a monk level. They gain 1 ac by taking a monk level. If they want more they need to invest points, tomes, item slots into wisdom. At the least its 5 ac with 1 tome, and 1 item slot. DT Plate armor ( very easy to get) +15 armor bonus. How does the 5-10 from your monk splash (5 from mine with 1 tome and 1 item slot) compare with that? Notice if you want +10 ac bonus from a monk splash you need a 9 wisdom mod (+1 for being monk) thats a 28 wisdom. How the heck do you get a stat to 28 without sinking points into it?

Taking a level of monk is not "instant" ac. It requires sacrifices.

So the base 12 Wisdom + 3 tome + 7 item character resulting in an endgame wis of 22 (+6 to AC) with little effort doesn't qualify as instant AC the second I splash Monk and wear pajamas?

Hmm, must have missed that memo.

Also, you're making an argument based on class roles (i.e. Rogue = stellar trapsmithing. Which also isn't true - a Ranger or Wizard with a Rogue splash can be just as good), whereas I'm arguing that the armoured AC tank is pigeonholed into 1 of 2 PrEs (one for Paladin, one for Fighter). Apples and oranges. ANY Rogue character can have good trapsmithing, not just the Mechanics; ANY Wizard can have decent Firewalls, not just the Evocation-specialized ones; ANY cleric or FvS can have excellent heals, not just the healbots.

But can ANY fighter have stellar AC in plate? No. They can't.

jwdaniels
06-11-2010, 12:47 PM
The other numbers problem in translating from PnP to DDO is that ability scores (for example, Dexterity) don't usually go past the 20s or 30s, so at most you're looking at the same AC bonus from your Dexterity as from your heavy armor. Again, anything above +6 or so is rare in PnP, but by level 10 you can easily have a score of 28 in an abilty.

Emili
06-11-2010, 01:04 PM
I fully understand the concept of using armor masteries. The point is it still has to be bought. A dwarf can get the same mdb for cheaper (8 instead of 12 ap) But this discussion isnt limited to fighters. Humans can spend their points to get more healing amp then anyone else, wf'd more hate or more pa enhancements then anyone else....see where this is going?

Yes... so your human spends 12 ap and your dwarf spends 12 ap the human thus lowers ac by two to pick up 10% more healing amp and is -2 ac from that of the dwarf but wait... to actually make 10% healing amp worth such must itemize (less ac gear) to actually make 121hp (110 without 10% amp) scrolled heal into something more substantial... Humans dump ac or dps etc... for healing amp is the normal result.

I used to run my human at 187% healing amp ... the AC wa down by 9, the dps however was down by 80 and I could not hold the agro I wished to by hate alone... intimidate was less then what I wished to rely on in such instance although I still use such on occasion - I eventually disliked the DPS output enough to swing back the other way and tappered her amp off at 50% - yet to only use such situationally as other in game items hold much more importance most the time.

Much like wf dump it for PA enhancements .... my point however are the gains are not as high a % in those areas. Easy to heal does not neccessarily mean healed so much less often, likewise 38 more damage output in ten swings does not always equate to less resources used either... the % of each are not exactly tradable in relivance.

... and you are correct outside fighter and or pally classes armour means little, but that only is due to the fact that fighter, pally and dwarf enhance armour while other classes may not.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:05 PM
The other numbers problem in translating from PnP to DDO is that ability scores (for example, Dexterity) don't usually go past the 20s or 30s, so at most you're looking at the same AC bonus from your Dexterity as from your heavy armor. Again, anything above +6 or so is rare in PnP, but by level 10 you can easily have a score of 28 in an abilty.

Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys offered boosts to full plate to help balance that out, but as I've been arguing only those who take those PrEs get those benefits.
The other plate tanks are left behind.

Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:08 PM
So the base 12 Wisdom + 3 tome + 7 item character resulting in an endgame wis of 22 (+6 to AC) with little effort doesn't qualify as instant AC the second I splash Monk and wear pajamas?

Hmm, must have missed that memo.

Also, you're making an argument based on class roles (i.e. Rogue = stellar trapsmithing. Which also isn't true - a Ranger or Wizard with a Rogue splash can be just as good), whereas I'm arguing that the armoured AC tank is pigeonholed into 1 of 2 PrEs (one for Paladin, one for Fighter). Apples and oranges. ANY Rogue character can have good trapsmithing, not just the Mechanics; ANY Wizard can have decent Firewalls, not just the Evocation-specialized ones; ANY cleric or FvS can have excellent heals, not just the healbots.

But can ANY fighter have stellar AC in plate? No. They can't.

Right. You missed the memo that a +3 tome, an epic item, and a minimum of 4 build points are not instant. Sorry.

Stellar trapsmithing requires either a huge sacrifice in areas, or going mechanic. Its not my fault the devs nerfed epic traps so that stellar trapsmithing skills were no longer needed in game, but the fact remains that mechanics can get the highest trap skills.

The point i was making is there are sacrifices to be made. Not any wizard can have good firewalls (evo spec'd? since when does that do anything to a firewall?) he has to invest enhancement points, feats, and gear slots to have a good firewall. Basically the same exact thing a fp with good ac has to do.

Same thing with a cleric. To get the best heals, he has to spend ap, feats and gear slots on it.

How is this any different from what a fighter or paly has to spend to get top notch ac?


Show me a monk splash that can run at 85 ac raid buffed no boosts with PA on, be at 700+ hp, and 40+ strength and you may have an arguement.


20 kensai fighter

10 base
15 dt
4 dex
1 dodge
5 ce
5 protection
4 insight
9 Tower shield
2 chaosguarde
2 alchemical
____________
57 stanced (costs 2 feats 1 raid item)

5 ranger bark
4 bard song
2 cleric recitation
4 paly aura
____________
67 raid buffed (easy raid buffs)

not bad for very little investment

add a few things

+3 chattering ring
+2 for epic armor
+1 for epic ring
_________________
73 epic raid buffed ac

which can go up with the right buffs as well

+2 for dos paly
+3 halfling
__________________
78 ac

Thats a dps non defender with stellar gear and all the buffs. Adding defender adds +7 ac with no more investment, if you want to invest more dex then you can get 2 more ac, if you want to block you get a few more as well.

How is this unbalanced. A defender gets 7 more ac off the top. Kensai gets +4 str with power surge vs defender stance and +1 crit range.

Drop the shield and pu twd and your still at 70 ac. 70 ac while getting all the kensai enhancements, 3 feats, a couple points in dex, and 3 points for int along with a couple +2 tomes.

Does a defender get more ac? Absolutely. Is there any reason they shouldnt?

Gunga
06-11-2010, 01:10 PM
Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

I like this analysis.

I'd like to add thatthey've started to even the difference between no armor and armor at end game with PrE Armor Skill bonuses. I just don't think they've done enough yet.

A maxed out Tank at endgame should be the hardest toon for a bad guy to DAMAGE. And that is where AC falls short...you are either hit, or you are not.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:12 PM
Yep, and this was something I argued a long time ago.
Some examples:

Full plate: the heaviest of armours. Offers 8 AC, but only 1 max dex. You simply can't move very well in this bad boy, but it offers plenty of protection.

Padded armour: the lightest of armours. Offers a mere 1 AC, but with a max dex of 8. So essentially it offers very little protection, but the most agile/dextrous/nimble/however-you-want-to-look-at-it person could achieve a similar protection to that of full plate.
It all balanced out.

Or, rather, it was *meant* to balance out. Everyone was supposed to be able to achieve good AC, and the armour you wore was mostly dependant on your character's dexterity.
Then as 3.0/3.5 introduced more and more rulebooks, things got out of whack, and that's where (as mentioned earlier) you started seeing crazy stats, and crazy class/PrC combinations allowing for insane ACs and such. i.e. mudflation destroyed the balance.

The same has happened to DDO.
We started with +1 tomes, and max +6 items. Now we're into +4 tomes, +7 items, exceptional bonuses, yugo pots, and so on and so on. The stats just keep getting higher and higher.

So while the pajama'ed person's AC can just keep rising as their DEX (and WIS if /Monk) goes up, the armoured person is somewhat limited based on the max dex boost of their armour.
Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys offered boosts to full plate to help balance that out, but as I've been arguing only those who take those PrEs get those benefits.
The other plate tanks are left behind.

Turbine eventually threw the tanks a bone with DT plate, but the end result was that it was very little improvement over mithril full plate for the average person. 15 (+1) vs. 13 (+3) is the same, unless you start throwing on fighter armour mastery, dwarven armour mastery, SD/DoS heavy armour dex boosts, and so on to reach a max dex boost that your Dex score can't fill out.
But generally speaking, armour is still far more limiting than wearing no armour. Which is skewed.
They'll introduce weapons that can do 500 dmg lightning strikes, or allow for stats to go past 40 in some cases, but they won't introduce a base 20 AC (+1) super-armour for the pure tanks :/

They have an armor very close to that ( within 1 with dex ) 16 + 4 possible.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:14 PM
I like this analysis.

I'd like to add thatthey've started to even the difference between no armor and armor at end game with PrE Armor Skill bonuses. I just don't think they've done enough yet.

A maxed out Tank at endgame should be the hardest toon for a bad guy to DAMAGE. And that is where AC falls short...you are either hit, or you are not.

I agree that there is some to be desired. And never once have I stated that ac is not whacked in this game. I just dont like to see people make statements like, "All you need is a monk splash for stellar ac." That is simply not true.

I do like the suggestions ive seen of granting a percentage of stacking dr. That would be cool.

Phaelen
06-11-2010, 01:17 PM
They Should Remove The Sword From The Logo Of This Game And Put In Sewing Machine At This Point, As It Should Be The Choice Weapon For A Robe/hammer Pants Wearing Dual Weapon User.

Hahahahahaha!!!! Win!

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:21 PM
Quickster:

Ok, take a +2 tome and +6 item instead of +3/+7. total difference of *1* AC. You're being pedantic.

As for the firewall, trapsmithing, etc. arguments, my point is that ANY Rogue or Wizard can get those enhancements.

That's not the case with Fighters/Paladins.
Of the 2 classes and the 6 total PrEs, only 2 of the 6 look to offer boosts to heavy/medium armour.
A Kensai, KoTC, HoTD, and presumably PDK (if/when it gets released), can't get the extra bonuses, which *are* significant.
A Stalwart has +3 AC just from tier 3 of the PrE; +2 MDB in heavy armour; and a further +2 AC just from the ToD set. That's 7 AC over the most AC-oriented Kensai. That's pretty significant. Add in defensive stance for another +4 AC, and we're now at 11 AC difference.

Also, you're using a S&B Kensai as an example? Really? And even as S&B, he manages a paltry self-buffed AC of only 57?
That's "good" AC, don't get me wrong. But by no means "stellar".
A similarly equipped Stalwart Defender would be at a self-buffed AC of almost 70...

Just sayin'.

Battlehawke
06-11-2010, 01:27 PM
Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:29 PM
Quickster:

Ok, take a +2 tome and +6 item instead of +3/+7. total difference of *1* AC. You're being pedantic.

As for the firewall, trapsmithing, etc. arguments, my point is that ANY Rogue or Wizard can get those enhancements.

That's not the case with Fighters/Paladins.
Of the 2 classes and the 6 total PrEs, only 2 of the 6 look to offer boosts to heavy/medium armour.
A Kensai, KoTC, HoTD, and presumably PDK (if/when it gets released), can't get the extra bonuses, which *are* significant.
A Stalwart has +3 AC just from tier 3 of the PrE; +2 MDB in heavy armour; and a further +2 AC just from the ToD set. That's 7 AC over the most AC-oriented Kensai. That's pretty significant. Add in defensive stance for another +4 AC, and we're now at 11 AC difference.

Also, you're using a S&B Kensai as an example? Really? And even as S&B, he manages a paltry self-buffed AC of only 57?
That's "good" AC, don't get me wrong. But by no means "stellar".
A similarly equipped Stalwart Defender would be at a self-buffed AC of almost 70...

Just sayin'.

why in the world should a dps pre give anything close to a defensive pre in terms of ac?

If you want to have stellar ac in plate you go with one of the two pre's. I don't understand what the problem is with that. It also costs a ton of gear slots. Both rings, necklace, bracers, tier 3 on shroud weapon, gloves, and armor.

My example was not to show that a kensai can achieve the same ac as a defender, It was to show that it could achieve good enough ac situationally to justify wearing heavy armor (you know, the point of the thread)

Once again, why should a dps pre get the same ac bonuses a defensive pre gets?

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:30 PM
Btw, not sure if you can dig into past threads, but I was trying to argue for the plate/tank changes a long time ago exactly what is being proposed here - adding better base DR or some other form of protection to the heavy armours to make them viable.

It's not quite the ideal fix, but it *could* work. Dunno.

Again, Turbine implemented that a little bit - but again, *only* to the Stalwart Defender / DoS PrEs... and mostly in the form of increasing their shield-blocking ability.

Personally, I'd rather see enhancements or feats that further improve Combat Expertise or Fighter Armour mastery.
Maybe one that adds a chance at riposting when in a defensive mode or stance, or a FAM enhancement bonus that allows for DR (i.e. "Toughened armour. Prereq: fighter armour mastery X. You have learned to make the most out of your armour, adding DR 2 in heavy armour, or DR 1 in medium. This stacks with any existing damage reduction you may have". Something like that. For the Warforged, this could stack with their racial enhancements and mithril/adamantine armour).

Autolycus
06-11-2010, 01:31 PM
So the base 12 Wisdom + 3 tome + 7 item character resulting in an endgame wis of 22 (+6 to AC) with little effort doesn't qualify as instant AC the second I splash Monk and wear pajamas?

Hmm, must have missed that memo.

Also, you're making an argument based on class roles (i.e. Rogue = stellar trapsmithing. Which also isn't true - a Ranger or Wizard with a Rogue splash can be just as good), whereas I'm arguing that the armoured AC tank is pigeonholed into 1 of 2 PrEs (one for Paladin, one for Fighter). Apples and oranges. ANY Rogue character can have good trapsmithing, not just the Mechanics; ANY Wizard can have decent Firewalls, not just the Evocation-specialized ones; ANY cleric or FvS can have excellent heals, not just the healbots.

But can ANY fighter have stellar AC in plate? No. They can't.

Exactly. Why can a guy in pajamas be as well or better protected than armor wearers? It makes no sense, neither intuitively nor historically.





Originally Posted by Quikster
So you want to have stellar dps bonuses AND stellar ac bonuses on the same pre?

Make a choice. Going defender doesnt have to gimp your dps. Especially on a paly with ds III and es IV available.

I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'll make that argument. How is the above fair?


I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.

Agreed. I see so many Monk splashes for this reason.

Aerendil: I'd give you rep but I have to spread it around more first.

OP: I also agree that we need a way to change the look of armor. Unfortunately, a lot of the ones I've seen are ugly.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:31 PM
Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke


Exactly.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:32 PM
Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

max dex/wis leaves little room for HP.

Also, what kind of dps does it do with weapons? Junk dps

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:35 PM
why in the world should a dps pre give anything close to a defensive pre in terms of ac?

If you want to have stellar ac in plate you go with one of the two pre's. I don't understand what the problem is with that. It also costs a ton of gear slots. Both rings, necklace, bracers, tier 3 on shroud weapon, gloves, and armor.

My example was not to show that a kensai can achieve the same ac as a defender, It was to show that it could achieve good enough ac situationally to justify wearing heavy armor (you know, the point of the thread)

Once again, why should a dps pre get the same ac bonuses a defensive pre gets?

It shouldn't. But again, you're misreading me. That's not what I'm arguing.
I'm saying the difference between a DoS/SD and any other Paladin or Fighter PrE in terms of AC is VERY significant.

And this argument was essentially a counter-argument to your "Rogues are stellar at traps, Arcanes are stellar at firewalls" argument, as I was trying to show you that *any* Rogue PrE can be stellar at traps, and *any* Arcane PrE can be stellar at firewalls. But that's not the case with non-SDs/DoSs.

Ahh well. This is getting convoluted and misconstrued.
Time for a coffee :p

PS - Autolycus. Thanks for the offer, mate. It's the thought that counts :)

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 01:37 PM
max dex/wis leaves little room for HP.

Also, what kind of dps does it do with weapons? Junk dps

The Exploiter build begs to differ, and is not max dex/wis. In fact it's mostly str/con, with a general base wis of 10-12ish and dex of 16ish. And still manages to have great end-game hp.

And it's dps is far from junk.

Just one example of the pajama'ed super-warrior.
(the creator of that build knew exactly that it wasn't *supposed* to be able to do that, hence the name.... and hence why we're arguing for better tank AC here)

Autolycus
06-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Seriously?

Since when should a guy who has trained his whole life and wears magic protectional items and a shield the size of a billboard, oh...and armor made of Magic Metal come close to having the AC of guy wearing "magic" pajamas or even a "magic" robe? ...come on guys be for real. Don't hide behind the armor, it's all about YOU. It's your fault that YOUR metal armor isn't as strong as my powerful, muscular skin. Get a life. Take that stupid metal off.... be a man!!! My body is stronger than any metal you can EVER make!!!


Seriously,

My cleric/monk with max dex/wis has a 53 base AC. She wears robes....and no shield. My Pally wearing a +5 mithril Full plate and +5 mithril Tower Shield has a 41..... I would say its all Divine, but my Pally has a good deity too...

....too funny
Battlehawke

Well said!
+1

Battlehawke
06-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Quik...

Don't get upset...

Shes a cleric....she heals.... I know ...I know..thats not what clerics that you know do.. but mine..heal... she only has 362 HP, but she's only level 16/2 Cleric/Monk. Shes a min/max build... Everything went into Wis and Dex and the little I had left over went into her Con...she doesnt have a +45 HP Greensteel Item yet either......... please don't be upset that my cleric heals.... I'm truley very sorry to upset you about it...


Battlehawke

Battlehawke
06-11-2010, 01:43 PM
Thank You for the Rep guys..... I'm trying to be positive... I think its funny that a naked guy has a better AC than a guy with Plate Mail and a Tower Shield, but ..its the game, and I've just learned to build my toons around it.... If you like Wf, check out the Hurtlocker Build too. Its not min/max but has some serious naked powers too!!


Battlehawke

Quikster
06-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Quik...

Don't get upset...

Shes a cleric....she heals.... I know ...I know..thats not what clerics that you know do.. but mine..heal... she only has 362 HP, but she's only level 16/2 Cleric/Monk. Shes a min/max build... Everything went into Wis and Dex and the little I had left over went into her Con...she doesnt have a +45 HP Greensteel Item yet either......... please don't be upset that my cleric heals.... I'm truley very sorry to upset you about it...


Battlehawke

No need for sarcasm. The point was you entered a melee discussion. Glad you feel you know me and the people I run with though....

Battlehawke
06-11-2010, 01:53 PM
Ok,

I'm going to go to work now, so you can Flame me now. I was being Sarcastic, and I must've missed the point, but I thought the OP was talking about AC and the diffeence between builds wearing armor and the fact that in order to get an UBER AC, that you had to build a toon that doesnt wear armor.... I do have a high AC build that does wear armor, but most of my builds that don't wear armor have a higher AC... oh..wait..i'm doing it again...this was a DPS thread.... was it?


Sorry, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not being negative.......

Oh..and +1 Rep to you too Quik...for being so passionate!!! You are the man!!!

Battlehawke

Quikster
06-11-2010, 02:03 PM
It shouldn't. But again, you're misreading me. That's not what I'm arguing.
I'm saying the difference between a DoS/SD and any other Paladin or Fighter PrE in terms of AC is VERY significant.

And this argument was essentially a counter-argument to your "Rogues are stellar at traps, Arcanes are stellar at firewalls" argument, as I was trying to show you that *any* Rogue PrE can be stellar at traps, and *any* Arcane PrE can be stellar at firewalls. But that's not the case with non-SDs/DoSs.

Ahh well. This is getting convoluted and misconstrued.
Time for a coffee :p

PS - Autolycus. Thanks for the offer, mate. It's the thought that counts :)

The arguement was that to specialize you have to invest in ap, feats, and gear slots. Why do you keep bringing it back to specific pres? You dont like the arguement, fine, but the fact remains that ap, feats, and gear slots have to be spent to specialize in anything in this game.


Yes the difference is significant in ac between pres, but so is the dps difference. Why arent we arguing for more dps for the defender lines?

If i want a high intimidate i have to give something up for it, if i want high dps, i have to give something up, and if I want high ac, i have to give somthing up.

Once agian, Im not claiming that the ac system is perfect, but people here are saying that monk=ac and its simply not true.

The Exploiter ranger starts with 15 str, maxes out at sub 600 hp's, starts with 14 wisdom (6 build points) and its self buffed ac is lower than my plate wearing fighters. Its intimidate is woefully subpar for tanking.

The exploiter is certainly a nice build, dont get me wrong, but a true tank it is not. Very few exploiters can reliably tank horoth on normal, much less on elite.

The defender line is for tanks specializing in :gasp: tanking.


My max wis/dex comment was a specific response to a specific post, it had nothing to do with the exploiter..

Look, I have both monk splashes, and tank builds, with an S as in more than one of each. I know exactly what benefits each gets. Saying you can splash monk and get good ac, is misleading. Yes monk splashes can get solid ac, but it comes at a cost. Saying anything different is flat out false.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 02:05 PM
Ok,

I'm going to go to work now, so you can Flame me now. I was being Sarcastic, and I must've missed the point, but I thought the OP was talking about AC and the diffeence between builds wearing armor and the fact that in order to get an UBER AC, that you had to build a toon that doesnt wear armor.... I do have a high AC build that does wear armor, but most of my builds that don't wear armor have a higher AC... oh..wait..i'm doing it again...this was a DPS thread.... was it?


Sorry, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not being negative.......

Oh..and +1 Rep to you too Quik...for being so passionate!!! You are the man!!!

Battlehawke


Not flaming anybody. Having discussions with people. Ive enjoyed it, and it has taken my mind of some serious RL issues going on.

Yes im passionate about people misleading others.

Battlehawke
06-11-2010, 02:07 PM
I wasn't arguing with you.... I was being comical in my first comment....and you decided to be a know it all... I was just being funny man..get a grip..settle down.... I'm sorry.... check back... I was being sarcastic and funny.....

and just for the record.... You are WRONG...you can have a high ac, high intimidate, high hps, high saves and high dps.... check out the Hurtlocker.... oh.... man...there are so many good builds out there.... ok..really..i'm off to work.. have a great day..we'll see you all in a few days.... good luck...and happy hunting....

JohnWarlock
06-11-2010, 02:11 PM
I don't know I guess I might be gimped or my pally might be gimped, but I seriously can't find a way to raise his AC to be significant and still have other items to make his DPS significant. Then again maybe people are only focusing on one aspect of the build instead of an entire build.

For Example:

Goggles: Sandstorm Glasses
Helmet: Minos Legens
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Trinket: Blood Stone
Cloak: Charisma +6
Belt: Proof against Poison belt of Greater False Life
Ring: Wisdom +6
Ring: Feather Falling
Boots: Boots of the Innocent
Gloves: Spectral Gloves
Armor: Dragontouched Armor: +6 Strength, +20 Hps, +3 Dex Skills (need to change)
Bracers: Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Bracers of Air

now my question is, do I drop being able to cast spells since I don't have high base wisdom to equip prot +5? and Chattering Ring? Seal of the earth? Should I sacrifice my charisma to have +5 AC? Loose 300 Mana, +6 to my umd and other charisma skills, to be able to have +2 AC?

What I'm trying to say is, sadly there is a lot of stuff to equip and not enough space to equip on certain characters. I do believe it might be easier for Fighters and Barbarians, since they don't need as many stat items as other characters.

What I really would love to see is the following:

Like someone previously suggested, lets lag the servers more with one more calculation for PCs which would be base Armor DR %s.

Give a 5% DR bonus per +1 in armor, and a % based on armor type.

Light Armor 5%
Medium Armor 10%
Heavy Armor 15%

all this before adding other modifiers like Mithral:

So for example a +5 Mithral Fullplate

+5 x 5% = 25%
Full plate being heavy once + 15%

it would still count as a medium armor but it would give you 40% DR
like someone stated it wouldn't be over balancing and instead of getting hit for 20 points of damage at high level quests you could get
20 x 40% = 8
20-8 = 12 damage, not a huge amount of damage reduce, not too over powering and it doesn't matter if your friendly AC 80 tank besides you doesn't get hit, at least you don't get his as hard. That could make the game more easier for solo play characters and certainly much easier on healers when their party isn't taking obscene amounts of damage.

Since it's only a % damage reduction, it would apply after all other reductions took place. Yes it would make FvS even stronger, but if a mob still by passes their DR then they do get something out of it. I mean since we are getting nerfed all over the place why not give characters some love out there.

That would still allow things like Adamantine to give their DRs although honestly when mobs are hitting you for 30-40 points of damage I don't see how 3/adamantine is much help, but then again 30 points - 3 = 27 x 40% 10.8 = 27- 10 = 17 points of damage only, a little more friendly towards characters.

Now I will have to chime in on the real relevance of this post, can't we make armor customization for the look of the armors? Honestly, the whole oh look we're in a raid and everyone is wearing the same robes/docents/dragontouched look is simply so un D&D like. Sure when you're playing a solo game, any armor can be unique, but when you're in an MMO it's sad to see everyone else looking like you.

I love what they did with the bunny helm and other helmets. The Showhelmet on/off but can't we do more to armors and helmets? Can't my Minos be cool? Can't my paladin wear a golden looking armor as he is Mr. Goody two shoes? or a barbarian wear full spike intimidating armor? and why are breastplates so damn awful looking? It's like they didn't want people to wear them, lol

Yes it would be difficult to change the look of armor and it would take so much coding and yadda yadda yadda, but seriously it doesn't take too much coding and time to go making the marketplace and the houses pretty? Like someone stated put tinkering tokens for sale for turbine points, let me take it to an in house armor smith and yes I can finally have cool looking armor, I want this to look like that armor and in these colors. Unless there is something against having guilds color code themselves to stand out.

Hopefully stuff like this would make itself into the game, or maybe even better ideas that make the game more fun.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 02:22 PM
I wasn't arguing with you.... I was being comical in my first comment....and you decided to be a know it all... I was just being funny man..get a grip..settle down.... I'm sorry.... check back... I was being sarcastic and funny.....

and just for the record.... You are WRONG...you can have a high ac, high intimidate, high hps, high saves and high dps.... check out the Hurtlocker.... oh.... man...there are so many good builds out there.... ok..really..i'm off to work.. have a great day..we'll see you all in a few days.... good luck...and happy hunting....

Who said I was upset with you? You come into a discussion with some BS about having high ac on your cleric. I refuted it.


Hurtlocker. Not a tank. Good build yes, IIRC decent hp's, decent dps so long as it doesnt have agro, very average intimidate, good saves. Does that about sum it up? I guess I could go look, but im a know it all so I dont really need to.

Thanks for trying to prove me wrong, next time maybe you can come up with a meaningful discussion to prove me wrong other than sarcasm and name dropping.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 02:25 PM
I don't know I guess I might be gimped or my pally might be gimped, but I seriously can't find a way to raise his AC to be significant and still have other items to make his DPS significant. Then again maybe people are only focusing on one aspect of the build instead of an entire build.

For Example:

Goggles: Sandstorm Glasses
Helmet: Minos Legens
Necklace: Shintao Cord
Trinket: Blood Stone
Cloak: Charisma +6
Belt: Proof against Poison belt of Greater False Life
Ring: Wisdom +6
Ring: Feather Falling
Boots: Boots of the Innocent
Gloves: Spectral Gloves
Armor: Dragontouched Armor: +6 Strength, +20 Hps, +3 Dex Skills (need to change)
Bracers: Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Bracers of Air

now my question is, do I drop being able to cast spells since I don't have high base wisdom to equip prot +5? and Chattering Ring? Seal of the earth? Should I sacrifice my charisma to have +5 AC? Loose 300 Mana, +6 to my umd and other charisma skills, to be able to have +2 AC?

What I'm trying to say is, sadly there is a lot of stuff to equip and not enough space to equip on certain characters. I do believe it might be easier for Fighters and Barbarians, since they don't need as many stat items as other characters.

What I really would love to see is the following:

Like someone previously suggested, lets lag the servers more with one more calculation for PCs which would be base Armor DR %s.

Give a 5% DR bonus per +1 in armor, and a % based on armor type.

Light Armor 5%
Medium Armor 10%
Heavy Armor 15%

all this before adding other modifiers like Mithral:

So for example a +5 Mithral Fullplate

+5 x 5% = 25%
Full plate being heavy once + 15%

it would still count as a medium armor but it would give you 40% DR
like someone stated it wouldn't be over balancing and instead of getting hit for 20 points of damage at high level quests you could get
20 x 40% = 8
20-8 = 12 damage, not a huge amount of damage reduce, not too over powering and it doesn't matter if your friendly AC 80 tank besides you doesn't get hit, at least you don't get his as hard. That could make the game more easier for solo play characters and certainly much easier on healers when their party isn't taking obscene amounts of damage.

Since it's only a % damage reduction, it would apply after all other reductions took place. Yes it would make FvS even stronger, but if a mob still by passes their DR then they do get something out of it. I mean since we are getting nerfed all over the place why not give characters some love out there.

That would still allow things like Adamantine to give their DRs although honestly when mobs are hitting you for 30-40 points of damage I don't see how 3/adamantine is much help, but then again 30 points - 3 = 27 x 40% 10.8 = 27- 10 = 17 points of damage only, a little more friendly towards characters.

Now I will have to chime in on the real relevance of this post, can't we make armor customization for the look of the armors? Honestly, the whole oh look we're in a raid and everyone is wearing the same robes/docents/dragontouched look is simply so un D&D like. Sure when you're playing a solo game, any armor can be unique, but when you're in an MMO it's sad to see everyone else looking like you.

I love what they did with the bunny helm and other helmets. The Showhelmet on/off but can't we do more to armors and helmets? Can't my Minos be cool? Can't my paladin wear a golden looking armor as he is Mr. Goody two shoes? or a barbarian wear full spike intimidating armor? and why are breastplates so damn awful looking? It's like they didn't want people to wear them, lol

Yes it would be difficult to change the look of armor and it would take so much coding and yadda yadda yadda, but seriously it doesn't take too much coding and time to go making the marketplace and the houses pretty? Like someone stated put tinkering tokens for sale for turbine points, let me take it to an in house armor smith and yes I can finally have cool looking armor, I want this to look like that armor and in these colors. Unless there is something against having guilds color code themselves to stand out.

Hopefully stuff like this would make itself into the game, or maybe even better ideas that make the game more fun.

Not sure on your stats/feats/enhancements, but you have no gear slots devoted to ac. Thats a must if you want to get meaningfull ac.

Yes different armor looks would be awesome, along with cloaks, and boots. We have been asking for a very long time, and IIRC there was a blurb in a recent interview about something like that comming in a future update.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 02:34 PM
The arguement was that to specialize you have to invest in ap, feats, and gear slots. Why do you keep bringing it back to specific pres? You dont like the arguement, fine, but the fact remains that ap, feats, and gear slots have to be spent to specialize in anything in this game.

I keep bringing it back to specific PrEs because you're the one arguing that you have to make sacrifices / choices, but *any* wizard can have decent firewalls with the right AP / feats / gear slots. PrEs play no factor in this. You can have the exact same firewalls capable from a pure Wizard as from a Pale Master.
Same with rogues and trapskills.
My argument (for the 4th time now?) is that DoS/SD lock you out of that option, giving you 11 max AC less (and realistically far less than that as you're most likely to go THF or TWF, not S&B as a non-SD/DoS). It's very different.
It's the same reason why Dark monks are upset right now that if they want to use shortswords, they HAVE to take Ninja Spy. Light side monks can't access it.
It's an argument for having choices.




Yes the difference is significant in ac between pres, but so is the dps difference. Why arent we arguing for more dps for the defender lines?
We have been in the past, but as of U5 I'd say S&B is getting a boost with D.Axe / B. Swords getting glancing blows, and THF/TWF getting mildly nerfed.


Once agian, Im not claiming that the ac system is perfect, but people here are saying that monk=ac and its simply not true.
Monk does = AC, generally. And it's not just an issue of Monks - it's the way the equipment system is designed.
AC 8 bracers + Icy (dodge+4) + dex/wis tends to outweigh any full plate + shield + chaosgardes + max dex boost combo, except perhaps the SD/DoS lines.

Again, as I've argued, the monk or monk splash is only limited as far as their dex/wis can go.
The plate-wearing armour is very much limited by max dex boost.

The scales are tipping back towards armour, though, especially with some epic items... and we'll have to wait to see if AC once again becomes useful in epic. /shrug.



The Exploiter ranger starts with 15 str, maxes out at sub 600 hp's, starts with 14 wisdom (6 build points) and its self buffed ac is lower than my plate wearing fighters. Its intimidate is woefully subpar for tanking.

The exploiter is certainly a nice build, dont get me wrong, but a true tank it is not. Very few exploiters can reliably tank horoth on normal, much less on elite.

The defender line is for tanks specializing in :gasp: tanking.
/sigh. The point is that the Exploiter can reach 60-70 AC without giving up any dps.
The tank specialized PrEs have to specialize in :gasp: tanking, in order to achieve AC that outperforms Monks and Exploiters, but in doing so gives up dps.
But again, that's another argument... which while relevant, would probably take this to a 20 page thread :p



Look, I have both monk splashes, and tank builds, with an S as in more than one of each. I know exactly what benefits each gets. Saying you can splash monk and get good ac, is misleading. Yes monk splashes can get solid ac, but it comes at a cost. Saying anything different is flat out false.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.
I think switching to pyjamas and splashing Monk makes for a very quick, and easy, AC boost for a vast majority of classes.
Rogues can not achieve a meaningful AC in armour, nor can Rangers. Splash Monk and wear pyjamas? Suddenly, they're looking at AC of 60-70.
Same with Paladins - show me a non-DoS Paladin that can reach 60+ AC and I'll be shocked.
But a Paladin/Monk TWF combo could probably hit 60+ with the typical end-game gear most pyjama folk have.

/shrug.
I'm not saying the have the advantage over plate users in all aspects. But the way I see it, for AC, it's DoS/SD > Monks and Monk splashes >> non-DoS/SD paladins/fighters >> all other armoured folk.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 03:11 PM
I don't disagre with your final statement.

Getting good ac requires a sacrifice, even on monk splashes. Just because its a sacrifice many are willing to make, its still a sacrifice.

I personally don't want to see every class able to obtain top notch ac. As it stands withthe right feats and gear every class can obtain meaninful ac, the question is do they want to make the sacrifice to do it? No in most cases.

A monk/splash that doesn't invest in dex or wis gains little ac by splashing monk.

Ir is an armor slot that basically gains nothing but +4 dodge. Armor bracers are expensive and lock out hound bracers. You still need a protection slot, a dex slot, a wis slot, str slot, con/gfl slot, seeker slot, holyburst slot. Then you need to find a place for all you exceptional bonuses.

Top ac requires a ton of gear and a big dps sacrifice for monks/monk splashes, then they still usually end up with low hitpoints.

Its just not as simple as monk/splash = high ac as you make it out to be.

Is the ac system messed up? Yes. But monk class isn't the problem. A monk with an insanely high ac is a severly limited character imo.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 03:24 PM
10 Dex
10 wis
8 bracer
4 IR
1 alchemical
33 ac

15 dt
4 dex
2 chaos
9 shield
2 alchemical

32
add the highest ac armor available
(admittedly hard to get)

16 armor
7 dex
2 chaos
9 shield
2 alchemical

36

non dwarf fighter.

This is with a shield however, but a dex/wis monk isn't going to have stellar dps either. Item slots also some into play, robe wearer will still need +5 pro somewhere.

for a defender this would be higher, and I think the comparison more apropriate, as the monk has chosen to specialize in ac, the fighter should be allowed to do the same.

Fighter could hold agro with intimidate much better then the dex/wis monk, which would tip the scales for the fighter in a big way due to blocking dr and a few extra points in ac for non defenders, +5 ac for defenders.

I don't see it being as large of a difference as you make it out to be. Add 5 to the monk and an all dex/wis monk is still behind the tank hiding behind the shield, far ahead of the twf non defender tank, and far behind the twf defender.

Pehtis
06-11-2010, 03:28 PM
Since AC in this game is all about not being hit, it makes a certain sense in the mind that those without armor will have a higher probability of dodging an attack. This is reinforced with Dex advantages and now with additonal Wisdom modifiers for Monk splash. Conceptionally being in full plate armor ought to make you clunky and more likely to be hit, right.

What is needed and has been mentioned is greater DR modifiers given to the wearing of these armors. Add to that DR reductions (like Barbs) for the wearing of these armors by fighters (because they have mastered extra DR for it). The result, more useful armor that has little to do with AC but is equally effective from DR perspective.

Since Monk splash benefits provide significant benefits I think these benefits should kick in at say Monk level 9. Sure it will make monks a little more vulnerable during these early levels but let's face it a robed wizard can survive until then without the BAB bonuses Monks get. Also I am told Monk have ripper combat abilities so it shouldn't be a fuss. The result, Monk has earned the right to it's AC benefits. Just moved the goal posts a little. Multiple builds will need to invest more into Monk levels to get the AC benefit.

An alternative is to insert default penalty that removes Wisdom modifier to AC when splashing Monk with any other Class when Monk level is less than ANY other Class being splashed with.

All this will do is remove pyjama AC from other Classes (somewhat any way) other than the Monk.

Now those plate wearing melee's can feel comfortable that their AC is not lower than too many exploited builds. Just brace yourself to the screams from players with such builds or Monk in general.

In this way DDO store wins because more players get cra.ppy AC resulting in more healing requirements. Just possibly means purchasing of various pot/scroll bundles. That is the point is it not for not being able to register useful AC against trash mobs at mid to higher levels.

BTW - definitely give an option to customize the armors to look cooler.

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 03:38 PM
Agreed. And for the record, I'm not intending my argument to sound like "splash Monk for a free, instant +40 AC!".
I'm getting the impression that's how you're interpreting it, but that's far from the truth and I wouldn't argue that's the case.

I guess if I had to narrow down my issue with armour, it's the issue of ever-inflating stats vs. the limitations of max dex boost on armour.

As it is currently only Fighters, Dwarves (for some reason) and SD/DoS have the capacity to extend that max dex boost to make heavy armour worthwhile.

But for the average joe who's either not a fighter, dwarf, or SD/DoS but wears heavy armour (i.e. a cleric, or a non-Dos Paladin)? That +1 on DT plate, or +3 on mithril full plate, is awful limiting, and as a result they very often turn to Icy + ac8 bracers + dex/wis.
With no means of enlarging the MDB, a plate-wearing Paladin would achieve a higher AC by wearing pyjamas, even without a Monk splash, if their dex is higher than 16. Which isn't overly difficult to do.

Which is where my argument stems from, essentially. It forces people who want a meaningful AC to go Fighter, Dwarf, or SD / DoS PrEs. Or in many cases, a combination of the above (i.e. Dwarven DoS; or a Fighter/SD).
A Human Paladin KoTC is buggered, no matter how many gear/feats/APs he puts towards improving his heavy armour. He'll always be a good 11+ AC behind a DoS, and if he goes TWF we're talking more like 20 AC. Which is a big discrepency IMO.

Anyways, I'm off. Definitely an engaging argument today, Quickster - cheers.

*edit* - PS, on your Monk ac above, don't forget CE, centered bonuses (+5 AC at 20), etc. And they also get evasion... :p

grodon9999
06-11-2010, 03:43 PM
/sigh. The point is that the Exploiter can reach 60-70 AC without giving up any dps.

That is not true, "Exploiter" rangers are NOT top tier DPS. Barbs, fighters, and Pallys (against EO) have us beat, as do STR-based rogues. Rangers can get very good AC with GOOD DPS, not tops and that is a sacrifice when building a character. A fighter will also have 100+ more HP with equal gear.

Alabore
06-11-2010, 04:21 PM
Since AC in this game is all about not being hit, it makes a certain sense in the mind that those without armor will have a higher probability of dodging an attack.

...

What is needed and has been mentioned is greater DR modifiers given to the wearing of these armors. Add to that DR reductions (like Barbs) for the wearing of these armors by fighters (because they have mastered extra DR for it). The result, more useful armor that has little to do with AC but is equally effective from DR perspective.

...

BTW - definitely give an option to customize the armors to look cooler.
Quoted and seconded.

AC always was the weakest point with AD&D since 1st ed.
It was a simplistic mechanic to keep number-crunching simple.
Other systems - GURPS, MERP, Arkania, and so on - tried addressing the issue with the DDO equivalent of DR and Fortification.

Since DDO is deviating from DnD canon anyway, they could draw from Rule Variations for ideas.
As mentioned before, DDO is pushing DnD rules into super-hero territory.
Some pnp players retire their characters before they turn god-like, so they never really face the issue of inflated stats and modifiers.
Other players tweak their games with house rules so the plate wielder will still have some situational advantage over his bath-robe wearing colleagues.

A tweak to DR, Fortification, AC and Energy Resistance might address some of the above issues.

...

About "nerfing" monks, while you do have a point there - and few pnp DMs would allow any player to exploit monk perks to create a "super" character - in DDO monk IS a paid class.
I doubt they would "nerf" it, considering user base reactions.
Personally, as a pnp and NWN player, I question the whole notion of making a core class a paid feature.
But that's for another thread...

...

Ceterum censeo... I concur, please give us armour customisation.

:)

Aerendil
06-11-2010, 06:30 PM
That is not true, "Exploiter" rangers are NOT top tier DPS. Barbs, fighters, and Pallys (against EO) have us beat, as do STR-based rogues. Rangers can get very good AC with GOOD DPS, not tops and that is a sacrifice when building a character. A fighter will also have 100+ more HP with equal gear.

Umm, at no point did I say Exploiters were top tier dps...

I simply said that they don't need to give up dps to achieve a meaningful AC. i.e. can dual-wield, still get their FE bonuses, but have a 60ish AC.
With tanks, they do. Or at least they did.... we'll see what S&B + B.Sword / D.Axe is like in U5.

Arcticwarrior
06-11-2010, 09:39 PM
I believe the definition of AC is how easily you can dodge opponents. Heavy armor is.... well... HEAVY. if you wear something like cloth it means light and allows more dexterous stats to reveal themselves, such as AC. however I think armor should increase in DR the heavier they get, ex. DR -/10 for heavy. at least then it may be more balanced. and if thats not enough they can ncrease armor DR for more magical sets of armor, such as Dragontouched (DR -/25 for heavy or what ever).

Hauteclaire
06-11-2010, 10:25 PM
I just want to be able to change the graphic. It looks wrong to have robes on or clothing when swinging swords etc. Should be optional at least. As I said in one of my other posts all the classic warrior stuff shows them in armor or even something like Aragorn had at the end of the 3rd film or even Helm's Deep. For clothing something like you see in Assassin's Creed 2. I just am sick and freaking intensely tired of these multi builds wearing robes and clothing and seeing it. I hate how it looks. Looks to matter to me for the character I have to stare at. I do stand by there being balance issues and common sense associated with it too, but for now I just want to be able to alter the look, or pick from armor available (the actual graphic) and apply that to my characters appearance, even if I am wearing something with boring robes/cloth stats. I like the classic warrior wearing armor for a reason.

So while it is a "makes no sense" technically issue, it is all a visual one too. If they can't work out the numbers, give us a the graphical change for now. That's all I ask,

Oh and if you want to dodge around let us pick something we want to wear that at least fits the base of a "warrior" class if we want. Not a bathrobe or hammer pants. It can be "robes" but still look right for the personality of the class.

Quikster
06-11-2010, 10:58 PM
Umm, at no point did I say Exploiters were top tier dps...

I simply said that they don't need to give up dps to achieve a meaningful AC. i.e. can dual-wield, still get their FE bonuses, but have a 60ish AC.
With tanks, they do. Or at least they did.... we'll see what S&B + B.Sword / D.Axe is like in U5.

Tanks havent since the defender lines were introduced. Not trying to bring this back to our pre discussion, just clarifying that tanks can dual wield and get high ac if they are defender :)

Alabore
06-13-2010, 08:36 PM
I
So while it is a "makes no sense" technically issue, it is all a visual one too. If they can't work out the numbers, give us a the graphical change for now. That's all I ask,
...
Oh and if you want to dodge around let us pick something we want to wear that at least fits the base of a "warrior" class if we want. Not a bathrobe or hammer pants. It can be "robes" but still look right for the personality of the class.
Quoted, seconded, agreed.

This *is* an issue.

In single-player games we usually have options to customise the main avatar's looks.
Be it in-built feature, unlocking new characters after beating the game, or plain brute force hex-editing of saved games.
Some players love playing with a customised avatar - even if nobody else will get to see their char.
Even very basic multi-player games allowed players to pick avatar colours, so you could tell red wizard from blue wizard.
The whole DnD franchise offered a wide range of options, so players didn't have to play the very same character as their pals.

Other players mentioned it in other threads: DDO could really use some customisation feature.
For new players it would be a way to better connect with their character, bond with the game, stay and pay for it.

Sharper looks might broaden audience and potential customer base.
New players might have little previous experience with c-rpg, but they are well familiar with console games; you fight the boss, you unlock a new outfit.
It would be a visual - and hence more effective - reward for learning the game.

Likewise, for vet players it would be something different from the usual set of horned helm and cyan wraps.
Even my lvl 4 looks sharper than some lvl 20 I've met.
Vets should have something nice to show, for all those hours spent playing - and paying - and unlocking unique outfits would be an interesting feature for somebody who has already unlocked everything else the game had to offer.

Also, I would suggest making the hauberk under-mesh available for cloth armour too.
Kundarak wardens and Silver Flame cleric wear it; players only get it with a couple chain-shirt models.
It would look nice with some robe textures too - especially with some backback and pouches over-meshes - and give cloth armour some extra mileage, without looking more of the same bathrobes and hammer pants.

On a related note, I would also suggest changing stats for scale mail, banded mail and so on, so they stay viable beyond Korthos and players won't consider them vendor trash as soon as they hit Stormreach.
More viable armour types mean more varied looks; some of my characters wear elven chain, even if it is considered sub-optimal, because I like the way most suits look.

This is not *just* a visual issue.
It is *also* a visual issue.
It does have an impact on gaming experience, at least for some players.

:)

Zuldar
06-13-2010, 08:45 PM
The only feasible solution to solving the ac issue that I can think of would be using the defense bonus variant from the unearthed arcana.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm

Combine that with the armor as damage reduction variant and everyone should be able to get roughly the same ac fully geared.

Quikster
06-13-2010, 08:58 PM
The only feasible solution to solving the ac issue that I can think of would be using the defense bonus variant from the unearthed arcana.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm

Combine that with the armor as damage reduction variant and everyone should be able to get roughly the same ac fully geared.

lol everyone with the same ac??? Thats not fixed, thats just as broke.

Zuldar
06-13-2010, 09:11 PM
lol everyone with the same ac??? Thats not fixed, thats just as broke.

What's broke is that one build can strive to hit a 60ac and another can effortlessly hit 80+. It's the gap between play styles that has lead to the dilemma we're currently in. If the playing field were to be leveled somewhat then ac could be meaningful to virtually everyone*.


*Barbs need not apply.

Autolycus
06-13-2010, 09:15 PM
lol everyone with the same ac??? Thats not fixed, thats just as broke.

You're right. There's no way pajamas protect nearly as well as armor. That's the problem. In DDO they provide BETTER protection.

Atoro87
06-13-2010, 09:16 PM
Want AC? Roll a tank or a defensive monk. Want DPS? You have to sacrifice somewhere, chug some pots and make the best of it.

This is a game that is grounded in neither history or realism.

/thread

Autolycus
06-13-2010, 09:21 PM
What's broke is that one build can strive to hit a 60ac and another can effortlessly hit 80+. It's the gap between play styles that has lead to the dilemma we're currently in. If the playing field were to be leveled somewhat then ac could be meaningful to virtually everyone*.


*Barbs need not apply.

Agreed. If ac could be meaningful to everyone, it would promote a lot more character variety, instead of the "standard cookie-cutter" builds. IMO, variety is a good thing.

+1 Zuldar

azrael4h
06-13-2010, 09:23 PM
I think the biggest problem I have with armor not being customizable is that I've played a F2P game like DDO, which allowed for just that. It also had much more customization of the player's avatar's looks. It was limited to two races, only a few classes, and much less content (that was the same stuff over and over anyway) but at least it had that over DDO.

Can't recall the name just now, since I've tried several sucky f2p games before.

knightgf
06-13-2010, 09:29 PM
stop dodge bonuses from stacking.
Cap dex AC bonus at 10 in robes



That might make things worse, because rather than seeing tanks in robes, you'll see tanks in underwear instead! And I've seen tanks with some nasty stains if you catch my drift...

superdestructo
06-14-2010, 05:51 AM
Recently, my ranger discarded his +5 armor for +7 bracers and some silly looking robes. (Why can't I just duct tape those bracers to my armor?)

I think if they allowed armor to continue progressing beyond +5 it would become a lot more wearable.


Alternately or additionally, armor could play a 50% role in fortification. Heavy 50%, Medium 40%, Light 25%. For both armor and magical items. I know it deviates from PnP, but we've got spell points, mana potions and all kinds of enhancements...

Alabore
06-15-2010, 05:16 AM
And I've seen tanks with some nasty stains if you catch my drift...
Septic tanks I would be inclined to surmise...

...

;)

FluffyCalico
06-15-2010, 05:35 AM
You're right. There's no way pajamas protect nearly as well as armor. That's the problem. In DDO they provide BETTER protection.

Robes allow you to move fast and get out of the way. Plate makes you harder to hurt. Well in the real world it would. As I can tell you right now if somoene puts on 300lbs of plate they are going to be so easy to hit its not even going to be funny.

Armor should make you hard to hurt not hard to hit. Reflex and dodging should make you hard to hit and not hard to hurt.

However most of DnD combined the 2 into genaric term AC which really would be better called damage mitigation. Think of it this way its hard to hurt someone in plate because of the plate. Its hard to hit a monk in cloth becasue he won't stand still.

Kriogen
06-15-2010, 06:08 AM
Armor is broken by PnP rules. DDO didn't broke this AC thing.

Problem is, that it does not scale with levels. Tohit increases with levels, +1 BAB per level if you have a fighter-type class. AC does NOT. Base is 10, full plate starts at 8 and is still 8 at epic level 40.

At 20 Fighter will have +20 base tohit but will still have AC8 base (+1 dex bonus). The same as at level 1. Yes, you can say "get +5 plate", but for every +X on armor, attacker can get +X on a weapon.

Thats why AC becomes not so usefull at around level 10-14, so around "Gianthold".
Chars AC is 10 + extras. Tohit is 1d20 + BAB + extras. At lvl10 fighters BAB is 10. So it becomes only 1d20 + extras tohit vs extras AC. Extras are sort of balanced. You have +5 weapons, defender has +5 armor. But BAB still goes up. Defenders "10 +" does not. Past BAB 10 AC becomes less and less usefull.

My suggestions would be:
- let base AC bonus (that 10) scale with levels and/or BAB
- base AC bonus on armor scales with Min Level. ML2 plate is AC8, ML18 is AC16 for example
- DEX bonus scales with levels. ML2 plate has Dex bonus 1, ML18 is lets say Dex bonus +6
- magical buffs, like Mage Armor, also scales. Just like Resist Energy or Jump spell.

You could fix AC problem in DDO. Many ways to do that. But then it would be one more step away from PnP in direction of other MMO games like WOW.

Alabore
06-15-2010, 06:34 AM
Armor is broken by PnP rules. DDO didn't broke this AC thing.
...
You could fix AC problem in DDO. Many ways to do that. But then it would be one more step away from PnP in direction of other MMO games like WOW.

Not necessarily.
Unearthed Arcana rule variations do take into account level scaling AC and armour as actual DR.
It would stay DnD, even though DnD optionals.

...

I am sure it's been suggested before: char sheet could be tweaked to accommodate icons for physical DR as well as elemental DR.

If physical DR scaled the same way as elemental DR does - or different sources of DR stacked - plate would stay viable, game would offer more variety, players would get all informations they need in one glance.

This would need some streamlining of how current physical DR works, especially for PCs - or at least some clarification, also considering DDO lacks a true, up to date, manual.

Autolycus
06-15-2010, 01:23 PM
Robes allow you to move fast and get out of the way. Plate makes you harder to hurt. Well in the real world it would. As I can tell you right now if somoene puts on 300lbs of plate they are going to be so easy to hit its not even going to be funny.

Armor should make you hard to hurt not hard to hit. Reflex and dodging should make you hard to hit and not hard to hurt.

However most of DnD combined the 2 into genaric term AC which really would be better called damage mitigation. Think of it this way its hard to hurt someone in plate because of the plate. Its hard to hit a monk in cloth becasue he won't stand still.

I agree with several of your points and that armor should make you harder to hurt. However, DDO doesn't implement it that way. Notice that I said armor should provide better protection.

I used to believe wearing full plate would make you very slow and clumsy and I would have agreed with you. However, I remember seeing a demonstration (I think on the history channel) of a guy in full plate. He was tumbling, jumping off horses, and fighting multiple unarmored foes which he defeated. He was very agile. It was VERY impressive. History would also seem to bear this out, since the armored warrior dominated until the rise of armor piercing weapons such as the crossbow and firearms.

Aerendil
06-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Want AC? Roll a tank or a defensive monk. Want DPS? You have to sacrifice somewhere, chug some pots and make the best of it.

This is a game that is grounded in neither history or realism.

/thread

It's not just those 2 that can get decent AC, and that was part of my previous argument(s).
I'm slowly (emphasis on slowly) working up a Rog/Monk that in defensive stance will be about a 60 AC, with the capability to get to 74 AC self-buffed; 86 raid-buffed.
Sum-total of one raid item required (chattering); and a few farmables (icy, shroud-insight). That's it.
And he gives up 0 dps in doing so.

The defensive tank *NEEDS* DoS/SD III, fighter armour mastery III, the ToD set, possibly Levik's set, and who knows what else, to beat that AC. And is pretty much confined to going weapon+shield.


Recently, my ranger discarded his +5 armor for +7 bracers and some silly looking robes. (Why can't I just duct tape those bracers to my armor?)

I think if they allowed armor to continue progressing beyond +5 it would become a lot more wearable.

Yep. Again, something I touched on earlier, but if armour's base AC was higher (similar to Dragon-touched gear, but should be even higher), or the enchantment was higher (which we're slowly seeing in Epic), then the armoured folk may reach higher AC more easily. But right now it takes quite a bit of work.

I do like the DR or fortification concepts, however, for armour. It completely makes sense, and the community has suggested something like this be implemented in the past.
Still waiting on a dev response, though. It strays from the D&D "canon" ruleset, but may just make armour attractive.
/shrug

Steven
06-15-2010, 03:42 PM
Just my 2 cp's

The problem I've had since I started playing D&D is this. I expect to be hit in armor. Think back your basically wearing a giant metal suit you’re going to be hit more than the guy that is not. Here is the difference I’m going to take more hit's because I am not going to feel it in my suit. The guy in the robe that takes the same hit as me is going to have his gut's spilled out on the ground. I have always believed armor should give more of a DR than a to miss ratio. My thought has always been to add a DR equivalent to the armors AC. This way wearing armor is worth it am i getting hit more yes but it doesn't really hurt me as the metal is taking the damage. The guy in robes isn't going to get hit as often but will take full damage. Like I said my 2 cp's take it how you will and enjoy.

Alabore
06-15-2010, 09:02 PM
Here is the difference I’m going to take more hit's because I am not going to feel it in my suit. The guy in the robe that takes the same hit as me is going to have his gut's spilled out on the ground. I have always believed armor should give more of a DR than a to miss ratio. My thought has always been to add a DR equivalent to the armors AC. This way wearing armor is worth it am i getting hit more yes but it doesn't really hurt me as the metal is taking the damage. The guy in robes isn't going to get hit as often but will take full damage.
That is basically what you got playing MERP/Rolemaster.
Combat resolution tables dictated lightly armoured chars would get hit LESS often, but when blows connected, they would get more damage - expressed in worse crit codes.
Chars wearing heavier, stiffer armour would get hit more often, for minimal amounts and only a well placed blow would become a serious crit - think subdual dmg vs armour-ignoring crit.

Also, there is more to that: simply put, armour provided two kinds of protection.
Stiff armour would deflect blows - think scale mail or plate mail.
Thick armour would cushion the residual impact - think padded or chain mail.
A mix of the above, prevented metal bits from piercing your precious skin, and blunt trauma from crushing your bones - think a composite suit of ribbed plate.

-> http://www.studioesseci.net/allegati/mostre/214/armatura.a.jpg

Hauteclaire
06-15-2010, 09:04 PM
I don't like the sacrifice this for that, that being high ac for damage. I should be able to have both like several other mmos I play, sure there are limits but it's not so black and white like that! All the novels and D&D stuff i read, I fell in love. Then I am playing the roles I read about in one of mc hammers outfits.... or like I said let me customize my robes/clothing to look like heavy armor or something somewhat good looking, even if they aren't. I just want to look the role. There is too many people running around looking the same.

it's good to see this conversation is still going too. Maybe the devs will wake-up and add some sort of features. A lot of f2p games do have customization, city of heroes going rogue coming also tons already there and then LOTRO is going to be free, which we know has it. They should just implement that feature here. This game is great but it needs more! I'm surprised they don't jump on this like Paragon Studios would. and use it as a way to make cash to help keep the game alive.

tfangel
06-15-2010, 09:09 PM
Bring back THAC0 and checking charts! ;)

Alabore
06-15-2010, 09:12 PM
Maybe the devs will wake-up and add some sort of features. A lot of f2p games do have customization, city of heroes going rogue coming also tons already there and then LOTRO is going to be free, which we know has it.
Would you be so kind as to link me a couple of those f2p games with readily available customisation features?
I have little experience with MMO gaming; I'd like to see what's out there, in terms of ease of personalisation.

:)

Mr_Ed7
06-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Great point...addressing the elephant in the room.

Hauteclaire
06-15-2010, 09:29 PM
Would you be so kind as to link me a couple of those f2p games with readily available customisation features?
I have little experience with MMO gaming; I'd like to see what's out there, in terms of ease of personalisation.


Well the BEST one is City of Heroes/Villains. If you have Xfire you could add me and I can show you just how deep the character customization is. I basically can make ANYTHING in there look how I want. I can even color my attacks particles, swap animations and all kinds of things.

LOTRO lets you customize armor

Aion has a lot of good customization, more character related then what you wear in some ways.

All Points Bulletin

Champions Online

Demon's Souls which is awesome but that's a PS3 game.

Even Splintercell Conviction, not an mmo, but I can pick outfits right from the closet and then armor them up with upgrades but go from tactical gear to a t-shirt and jeans with just nightvision on.

There's some other Free ones but I don't remember all the names. City of Heroes/Villains is getting a major expansion called Going Rogue, in about a month or so from now. Also even though that game is based around comic books it's not exactly like that. I mean a lot of my characters look like Demons, angels and grammaton clerics heh (with the dual guns and actual gun kata that animates.) Another character summons Demons. There is just tooo much to say about that game. There is also an area in the game you can create you own missions(quests.) You can pick the look of every enemy, their exact powers they use, what they say, their name, the map, storyline, objectives, the ambushes, giant monsters, difficulty levels of various spawns in the map, interactive objects etc.

Anyway, I apologize to all for going off-topic. Just responding to a question!

Osma77
06-15-2010, 10:00 PM
May have been mentioned before (this has gotten to be a long post) but my 2 cents say to look towards the DnD that the game was based on. Things have to be changed - i understand - in order to make combat quicker, and that tends to lend towards the "stat inflation" that i have read about. And for someone who learned DnD in both 2nd and 3rd edition, it is quite obvious that this is true.

Just one example of this is that in all the games i have played through the years, rarely have i seen someone who had a single stat that got above 24 (unlike my main who is only level 14 and still has both str, dex and wis between 22 and 28).
Another example is that in the games i have played (and DMed), having a ac of 25 was fairly good by level 10, and having a ac of over 30 was very good even at level 20. Of course if you DIDN'T have at least 30 by level 20, fighter mobs would be owning you, but at least a few hits would miss with an ac of 32 or so.

Yet on this game, the stats regularly hit far higher then even my paltry 28, and AC of 36 is barely enough to stop dogs from eating me at level 14; Bearded Devils just laugh at such low ac levels and own me. Why? Because as an attack chain increases, the BAB also increases due to the way that the game deals with attack chains. http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence
A level 10 fighter would theirfor attack with 10 bab on his first 2 hits (which is quite normal), then, if he attacks long enough, suddenly starts using 15 and 20. If this is true (and i assume it is) then a level 10 char can hit (at least once) an enemy as easily as a level 20 can. Is it any wonder then that monsters can hit us easily despite having a high armorclass?

Before i make my suggested fix, let me mention what i think should NOT be fixed. I dont think that increased stats are the problem: having a 30 str is of course more effective then a 25 str, but not hugely so. Also, I dont think that the game should stop giving such large bonuses to attack chains; without them, some people would have trouble hitting at all against armored enemies.
Instead, I think that armor should be effected itself. This could be done easily, and on retrospect, it makes sence that we had this problem all this time. The problem is that we are using the same general armor that PnP uses, yet we have much higher chance to hit. The fix could be done simply by adding both to the base amout of ac that each type of armor gives, and by increasing the bonus that each level of armor gives. For example, instead of a +5 full plate giving 8 ac +5 (13 ac total ignoring dex), make it a +10 full plate (change base to, say, 12, and then add 10 instead of 5). Ignoring other types of armor, this would make a char go from 23 ac (low) to 32 (much better). This would not only make armor more effective (making high levels of ac easier to obtain) but cloth wearers would not gain those bonuses, making it much less attractive to high level fighters (monks of course would need a simular bonus to armorclass by level, otherwise they would become far less useful since they almost HAVE to use cloth. )

Arcticwarrior
06-18-2010, 11:30 PM
Robes allow you to move fast and get out of the way. Plate makes you harder to hurt. Well in the real world it would. As I can tell you right now if somoene puts on 300lbs of plate they are going to be so easy to hit its not even going to be funny.

Armor should make you hard to hurt not hard to hit. Reflex and dodging should make you hard to hit and not hard to hurt.

However most of DnD combined the 2 into genaric term AC which really would be better called damage mitigation. Think of it this way its hard to hurt someone in plate because of the plate. Its hard to hit a monk in cloth becasue he won't stand still.

what I said before

Igrovin
06-19-2010, 01:51 AM
Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

Well from my observations, these are the problems I see with the AC system in DDO.

First is that they gone done away with things like Touch AC and Flatfooted AC. Flatfootedness was one of the biggest reasons to have full plate in pnp vs padded. Course touch was the opposite. Then of course all their "talent points" they wanted to throw into the game.

If we don't do a huge freeking overhall on AC in general, what should happen is a sort of a "super" damage reduction that stacks with all other forms of DR. More importantly it even can reduce the damage of spells, as that is really one of the biggest killers in this game for the tin can soldiers. Cause its like you wade into a room of kobolds who don't do anything in damage, then poof, some shaman pops off a scorching ray in your face.. twice. using the trademarked chain casting tech that all monsters have.

Of course with a shield this is even greater. After all, in PNP you could use a tower shield to actually stop line of sight, and prevent some spells from being cast (mostly damaging ones that can't attack items, such as magic missile)

Djimonte
06-19-2010, 02:13 AM
Here is a solution to the AC issue and wearing robes vs armor. Give armor a higher dr to attacks, give a shield bonus feature for sword board types, make it where a unarmored person getting hit make a reflex save failing they recieve triple damage output and also recieve a ill affect being knocked unconsious major blood loss by ticks etc etc. This issue can easily be resolved by adding factors to balance out running around in robes versus armor as armor was made for a reason.

LordPiglet
06-19-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm not saying you should be able to obtain BOTH. Not at all.
Although one could argue that fair's fair, and if Monks and Rangers can reach 70+ AC without giving up any dps, then so should tanks... but that's not an argument I'm making here.

I'm simply saying if you want stellar AC in plate, you're more or less forced to go S&B and pick up either SD or DoS PrEs.
As noted above, you *can* obtain a good AC in plate even if TWF/THF, but note that that poster *still* had to go DoS/SD to obtain it.

Don't see why you shouldn't be able have a "good" to "very good" rating AC as, say, a TWF KoTC. But in it's current state, that's very very hard to do without a ton of grinding for the best gear out there.

The Monk splashes have merely to take 1 monk level to get an instant +5-10 AC generally. And that's what I feel is broken.

Monks and rangers are giving up DPS to reach those numbers. Maybe less then other classes, but they are giving it up. For rangers that means that can't dump dex (and take only a 13) or they have to go weapon finesse use light weapons and still not have the strength damage bonuses.

Monks to have the best AC have to put points into Dex, Wisdom (along with Strength and Con) or the same issue with dumping strength to the power attack minimum and going weapon finesse. Monk splashes need wisdom to get the bonuses, and dex if they're going to be in pj's.

There's always a sacrifice to do something.

TheKaige
06-19-2010, 07:20 PM
AC is broken in this game because of
1. Massively overinflated stats; We have 28,32,34,and 36 point character builds. An average power DnD campaign has 25 point build characters. Enhancements further break the system by letting our stats go even higher.

2. The fact that monsters don't have an attack chain where each attack in the chain is progressively easier to dodge ala PnP, and the fact that the PC attack chain actually makes it easier to hit with each attack creates an atmosphere where you either have Max AC, or no AC.

I would sort of like to see armor changed into damage reduction that stacks with everything, as it simply makes sense, but I imagine there would have to be an almost complete overhaul of everything in game to preserve balance throughout the levels. + If armor becomes DR, shields should lose their DR (It doesn't even make sense for shields to have DR) and instead to have higher AC values.

As for the lack of flatfooted in this game making dex builds better, I personally believe that you could balance some of that by 1. Making meaningful stealth mobs who can actually sneak up to an equal level party, and make it so that whenever a stealthed mob attacks anyone who hasn't "detected them" (found them with a spot or listen check) the victim is effectively flat-footed (no dex bonus, shield bonus, dodge bonus, or anything that requires you be aware of the mob). And make it so that whenever a monster attacks you from behind, you also suffer the effects of being flat-footed. Then you can make Uncanny Dodge what it's s'posed to be (an ability to retain your AC bonuses when flatfooted) instead of that cute little clicky.

Uryamore
06-20-2010, 07:43 AM
I would prefer the method to fix AC that uses decaying AB on attack chains, but I don't know how much of the base combat code would need to be rewritten to maintain a chain for X attacks or 6 seconds, whichever comes first, regardless of twitching.
If it's like some of the other low level code, it was written by one guy who's no longer there and didn't comment his code clearly, as I have dealt with such code before, I know it isn't quick, easy, or sometimes even possible to predict all the effects of your changes. Combine that with all the people who want new content, and I can understand why the devs wouldn't touch it with an eleven foot pole from the safety of protection from elements and stoneskin.

Hauteclaire
06-20-2010, 07:59 PM
I started this thread to talk about the mechanics but also look. You guys are getting that right? I understand people are giving up things to wear lesser armor or whatever, but in my mind, in a over 40 D&D books I own, tons of fantasy art books, movies, games and cartoons and other novels that person with the big swords and armor go hand in hand. There is a lot of multi-classes I want to try but because you have to wear robes and clothing, I don't want to play it - and that limits what I can play. Re-playability is low because of it. It's not because of the AR as much as how it looks. It looks bad. I was merely saying it would be really great if they let us pick the actual LOOK (not stats) of what we wear. So I can make this TWF evasion character but have the appearance of the full plate (just appearance) and not look like a person in their bathroom or 90s rapper pants, swinging swords. It's again a visual thing. I do think in a "fantasy" game though, ANY armor over robes or clothing should be better than some player in robes with duals.

They need to update the look of the armor. E3 this year really hooked me with many other new games that offer massive armor and let you use big swords... and I know the rest of those games will be like Lineage 2, which in NO WAY compares to DDOs dungeon adventures, but I am tired of wearing robes and cloth with swords and the whole "ar means nothing in the end" scenario. It shouldn't be that way, just looking at all the fantasy art across all mediums out there.

In Demon's Souls you wear huge armor and the heavier it is the slower you move and evade but you STILL can. You just need to time it better, there is a smaller window and you can "feel" through the dual shock mostly, the armors "weight" as you recover from a roll on the ground slower than a class with clothing on. It's still possible it requires more skill, and you have to make sure when you hit with your weapon, you don't miss. Demon's Souls really did do it right. I mean they have it so when you swing a sword in closed in spaces you hit the wall and don't make contact with the creature you are fighting, leaving you open for instant death. Dying there is more realistic than DDO, where I can take a lot of punishment before dropping. In Demon's Souls, I wear huge armor and do great dps, sure evade super slow, but that just means I have to be MORE focused when I do evade and I have to recover from the roll but it's more realistic than the system in this game. Also I can BLOCK with my sword and shield (unlike DDO.) So the trade-off for slow evasion in high armor is worth it. Blocking wears endurance (or stamina. forgot which) down, so you have to play smart. So while the whole realism of clothing being faster over armor makes sense, but that doesn't mean it's better, as aheavy armor using characters can still evade (slower) and fight and because of the "armored like a tank" aspect, I can block incoming damage, which is worth more to me then being a dexterity monkey... and I honestly don't see how people can evade well in a robe, and I've been doing martial arts for 14 years. On the other hand, I'd be happy wearing a cloth shirt, PLATE legs or plate and chain combined and maybe the same in the arms, but heavier armor on the shoulders. That look would be more acceptable over MC Hammer's pants or Hugh Hefner's robe.

Again, I hope I explained this well. English is definitely not my first language so I apologize for that. I just am trying to clarify some points I seem to have missed in my original post when I started this thread. I also agree with everyone who thinks they should add my properties to heavy armor. Overall, it would be BEST if they just let us pick the graphic/model/visual look of the armor we want to wear (even if it isn't that armor) like LOTRO does. Ilove this game and I want more variety when I play a multi-class then knowing I will be settling on cloth and robes AGAIN as I swing two swords in battle. It's getting old to look at.

Alabore
06-28-2010, 06:30 AM
That look would be more acceptable over MC Hammer's pants or Hugh Hefner's robe.
Again, I hope I explained this well. English is definitely not my first language so I apologize for that.

English might be a second language for you, but you got me chuckling over the Hugh Hefner reference...

:D

No mincing of words here: I said that before; I agree with you - we'd like our characters to look the part, and maybe even feel like it.

To some of us, especially the f2p late comers, DDO is what NWN2 could have been, if only they had made it so loading a one-story inn didn't take 5 minutes to unload previous area and unpack the code to new zone.

There is a nice action feel to it - not unlike old action fantasy games such as Severance - Blade of Darkness.

...

As mentioned before: the underlying issue with AC vs HP mechanics comes straight from pnp DnD.
AC and DR do not scale with level - much; HPs do.

DDO is exacerbating the existing AC>DR issue with inflation of AC and HP at higher levels.
If damage mitigation through Passive Resistance were viable, players would consider building different characters.
More variety and more options to reach the same goal.

This wouldn't be a big deviation from pnp spirit either - DDO is already taking liberties with pnp letter anyway.
AC was a cunning concept conceived to make maths easier for human players rolling dice and keeping tracking of several characters involved in a fight.
Computers could cope with more refined mechanics - Rule Variations from Unearthed Arcana come to mind - without betraying the spirit of the game.

...

Stray thought: physics engine could be further tweaked to accommodate for ragdoll effects.
The concept is already there: when fighting giants you sometimes get shoved behind.
Feasibility could be an issue, but it would help immersion a lot.

:)

KKDragonLord
06-28-2010, 06:39 AM
Well the whole AC system is broken anway~~Would someone suggest a fix to it?

There have been many suggestions (some quite valid) on how to fix it for a long time now, im just wondering when the Devs will start considering them seriously in the future.

Its such a huge deal that would pretty much require a full rebalancing of the entire game (no easy "one size fits all" solutions) so i don't expect them to get on it any time soon, the game works more or less well enough as it is so its not a priority for them.

The greatest factors that makes it hard to touch the AC beehive is the way it could dramatically affect item drops and current "hard earned" equipment, and we all know how Sacred a cow our Loot is.

The hardest part would be to find ways to change it that would still be true to the rules (which were also suggested several times), that seems even less of a priority considering the changes that have been going on since mod 9 came about. In which case, i am more or less happy with the way things are, for i don't believe any meaningful changes would be in line with the PnP rules (which they certainly can be with a little extra effort)

barakhiel
06-30-2010, 09:24 PM
Another thing worth addressing; if I recall correctly, on pnp, you would take a fairly hefty penalty for just "splashing" without leveling all classes you multiclass into evenly (with the exception of the Half-Elf race). It was a penalty that did make multiclassing not worth it in most cases. Of course, the 3.5 rules had it "officially" set as an XP penalty, but of course the DM had free realm to make it whatever penalty he felt was fair. Such an XP penalty would be fairly meaningless in DDO, since the maximum level is 20 and most 18 level Clerics wouldn't mind having to get to 20 a little bit slower so they could catch 2 levels of monk for the ac and evasion...

The point I am trying to reach is that multiclassing is supposed to be used so you are effective in multiple fields, however you will never be as powerful as a guy that dedicates all his levels to a single class. A Swiss army knife comes in handy in far more situations than a hunting knife, but it will never be as good a knife as the hunting knife. But all the time you see multiclassed characters easy succeeding beyond someone who is a level 20 Rogue/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter...

What would be best is to incur a penalty on characters that do not level their classes evenly, just like in pnp rules. A lot of players will be upset and possibly outraged over this, but they are trying to cheat a system anyways...

Maybe then you'll see fewer players running around in pajamas when they see the penalty they take for that AC that the monk levels gets them...

Aesop
06-30-2010, 10:30 PM
Another thing worth addressing; if I recall correctly, on pnp, you would take a fairly hefty penalty for just "splashing" without leveling all classes you multiclass into evenly (with the exception of the Half-Elf race). It was a penalty that did make multiclassing not worth it in most cases. Of course, the 3.5 rules had it "officially" set as an XP penalty, but of course the DM had free realm to make it whatever penalty he felt was fair. Such an XP penalty would be fairly meaningless in DDO, since the maximum level is 20 and most 18 level Clerics wouldn't mind having to get to 20 a little bit slower so they could catch 2 levels of monk for the ac and evasion...

The point I am trying to reach is that multiclassing is supposed to be used so you are effective in multiple fields, however you will never be as powerful as a guy that dedicates all his levels to a single class. A Swiss army knife comes in handy in far more situations than a hunting knife, but it will never be as good a knife as the hunting knife. But all the time you see multiclassed characters easy succeeding beyond someone who is a level 20 Rogue/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter...

What would be best is to incur a penalty on characters that do not level their classes evenly, just like in pnp rules. A lot of players will be upset and possibly outraged over this, but they are trying to cheat a system anyways...

Maybe then you'll see fewer players running around in pajamas when they see the penalty they take for that AC that the monk levels gets them...

disagree on many many levels.

mostly the belief that a level 20 well planned Multi Class should be LESS powerful than a striaght anything is ridiculous. If two characters are level 20 they should be just about as powerful.

Multiclass characters have been being penalized repeatedly in DDO. See Capstones and PrEs as a prime example.

Please stop trying to place everyone into the same box. DnD is about building a character not about following a template. The only real way we can do that is with Multiclassing and Turbine has repeatedly made it harder and harder to make fun effective builds all in the name of helping out the Pure Class.

Aesop

Fenrisulven6
06-30-2010, 10:35 PM
Well, a little sidetrack here, but IMO, Turn Undead is useless no matter how you look at it.

Yup. My clerics have to go in with Halt Undead and Web clickies. How sad is that?

barakhiel
07-01-2010, 06:37 AM
disagree on many many levels.

mostly the belief that a level 20 well planned Multi Class should be LESS powerful than a striaght anything is ridiculous. If two characters are level 20 they should be just about as powerful.

Multiclass characters have been being penalized repeatedly in DDO. See Capstones and PrEs as a prime example.

Please stop trying to place everyone into the same box. DnD is about building a character not about following a template. The only real way we can do that is with Multiclassing and Turbine has repeatedly made it harder and harder to make fun effective builds all in the name of helping out the Pure Class.

Aesop

Unfortunately, the vast majority of mulitclassed characters are following a template. The most common one to watch is the 18 Cleric (or FvS)/ 2 Monk super-character which easily makes nearly all reflex saves and still has access to the most powerful Divine Spells. You can go ahead and invent your own character, but you will be one of the few multiclasses that does NOT follow a template.

danzig138
07-02-2010, 06:51 AM
One step in the right direction would be removing stacking dodge effects

That seems to be one of the sacred cows of 3.5 they aren't willing to slaughter. Dodge bonuses stack in pnp, and I don't see them not stacking here anytime soon.


I think the problem is spell durations that last 1 minute per level (2 minutes with extend spell) being applied in real time when 1 minute in the PnP game is the equivalent of one set of attacks.
Dang, man, when was the last time you played D&D? In 3rd edition rules, a combat round is 6 seconds, not one minute like it used to be.

I started this thread to talk about the mechanics but also look.

Unfortunately, from your posts, it doesn't sound like you want to play D&D, which DDO at least pays lip service to trying to be like. For all of the things in this version I can't stand and really think should be altered, it is still pretty recognizable to me as spawn of the genre-in-its-own-right-game Dungeons and Dragons.

And for the one guy who said d20 system is supposed to be easy. . . heh heh. No, that wasn't really a design goal. Streamlined a bit and more comprehensive? Yes. Easy? No.

Personally, I want to see the stat blocks for creatures. I have ideas on what could be done to fix things, but those ideas assume things like the creatures are set up like in the books. I know when I attack, it sure doesn't feel like I"m using BAB as per the books. And it darned sure feels like things I'm trying to kill have more hit points than they should. I'd actually love to see all the rules of this game in a rulebook format so as to clearly see what is different and by how much.

So to fix things, the first thing I would attack is any hyper-inflation of stats. To monsters, PCs, items, spells, anything that needed it. Bring it more in line with the SRD. Mainly, I guess, I'd rebuild it from scratch to emulate the pnp game as much as possible with as few as necessary allowances for the real-time aspect.

Since that isn't going to happen, I'd take a look at Unearthed Arcana for some rules variants to implement as someone noted above. AC, ranged combat, and the like? These can all be fixed if the devs would choose to do so.

Concerning the appearance - I firmly believe there should be a system for customizing the appearance. However, I would not allow someone to take a suit of +5 adamatine plate of butt-kicking and skin it like a robe. They'd be limited to a broad selection of heavy plate skins. Medium armors would have their own skins, and robes, etc. I'd also like to see most of the plated armors redrawn. Some of them look like they were designed by people who've never seen even a picture of plate, or plate and mail, or armor.

But first, can you please, please stop paralyzed giant scorpions from chasing me halfway across the Vale? They're paralyzed for goodness sake!

AestorTheKnight
07-02-2010, 08:52 AM
... There is a lot of multi-classes I want to try but because you have to wear robes and clothing, I don't want to play it - and that limits what I can play...

I feel exactly the same Hauteclaire. :( When ever I build a new character I also have in mind that characters appearance. Because to me the "concept" of the character, and the idea of his or her personality is what makes that character enjoyable to play in the game. And appearance is a big part of the character concept, that his or her appearance should reflect who or what that character is.

For too long we have been straightjacketed by Armour appearance in DDO. Its high time Turbine implemented a system to allow us to have our characters look how we want them to look. :)

AestorTheKnight
07-02-2010, 09:01 AM
Concerning the appearance - I firmly believe there should be a system for customizing the appearance. However, I would not allow someone to take a suit of +5 adamatine plate of butt-kicking and skin it like a robe. They'd be limited to a broad selection of heavy plate skins.

I dont agree - how a character looks has absolutely no bearing on Gameplay or Balance at all. Players should be able to make their characters look exactly how they want to look.

There is no good reason to stop people useing any and all appearances they desire to make their character look how they like! Other than it contradicts some arbitrary notion that Full Plate should look like Full Plate and a Robe should look like a Robe. But at the end of the day, looks dont effect gameplay, so give people the choice! Cos thats fun and cool.

Why impose limits when they dont benefit the game in any way, and only serve to decrease the options available.

If a Player wants their Robe to look like a suit of Full Plate, or their Breastplate to look like a Splintmail, let them.
Can you give me one good reason why they shouldnt be allowed to do that?

:)

(Danzig, your signature is completely untrue and quite frankly insulting and offensive to Turbine and DDO as a game. I would encourage you to rethink your sig.)