PDA

View Full Version : Why play a barbarian next patch?



Hydro
06-09-2010, 02:14 PM
I have seriously been debating on why I would want to play my barbarian next patch with the amount of direct and indirect nerfs affecting my class. Here is my current thought proccess any input is appreciated.

DPS: My Barbarian is getting a massive DPS decrease next patch, between the Epic Sos nerf, removal of Glancing blows (while twitching), and 15% attack speed nerf (Madstone + Capstone fix) my DPS is going to drop from top place to somewhere between 3-4th place DPS. Seems kinda silly to me that a fully geared out Barbarian with an epic weapon will be outdps'd by a fighter with Dual Lightning Strike Kopeshes, or even a fighter with an Epic SoS but thats how it looks on Lamania.

Self Damage: Even with my lower DPS I am still taking 2d3 self damage a swing and between the large amount of self damage I am doing and my lack of evasion or AC I will be taking more damage then anyone else in the raid. I worry barbarians might be more of a burden on a group at this point if multiple different classes can produce equal or more dps then I am doing while taking drastically less damage.

Self Sufficency: Barbarians are the least self sufficent class in the game. I bring no buffs to the group, I require a large amount of buffs and on top of that I cant use most curative potions while raged. Fighters have versatility that I cannot bring (if they dont spend all their feats on Toughness), Paladins bring resists and divine buffs, rogues can take care of traps and UMD scrolls and wands, and rangers bring resists and bark skin. I will be going into raids asking for buffs from the casters and fellow melee classes, asking for curse removals, restores, remove blindness, etc. while doing less DPS then a more self sufficent class that can take care of their own ailments.

Tanking: Barbarians are currently the kings of hate tanking and when this patch goes live with the large DPS (hate) loss I dont know if they will retain that position. I fear that I will be loosing aggro easily and I cant even take the warforged threat enhancement sense it is bugged with Rage. If things stay how they look a fighter or monk will be a much better choice of hate tank since they can get close to the hit points of a barbarian, while taking less damage and possibly doing more DPS. Take my monk for example, he is a max STR high CON build that can get over 750hp buffed in Earth Stance. Next patch my monk is also getting a 25% incorpereal self buff that should work against red names. So for example next patch when it comes to tank a raid boss would you take the monk that can produce equal or better threat, has improved evasion, has dr10, has equal fortified raid boss dps, and 25% concealment that stacks with Cloudkill (if CK isnt nerfed) or the barbarian that has a little more HP then the monk but takes at least 50-100% more damage.

Fun: Enjoyment while playing my character is by far the most important thing for me. On Lamannia I have tried to play my barbarian and it is not fun any more. I swing like I dont have haste which is just painfull, my damage with my favorite weapon is low and I dont get enjoyement out of seeing the "big crits" that are over 100 damage lower then my current "big crits". Also by changing glancing blows I feel like I should not be twitching any more and that removes most of the active combat fun of DDO. Twitching was always a big part of the fun of playing a THF character and there is nothing I enjoy more then trying to mantain a perfect twitch in the craziest of situations. Now barbarian combat is run up to mob and autoattack while making sure your multiple rage buffs stay up. I plan on grabbing Stunning blow next patch which gives me one more button to push but doesnt really enhance my new playstyle by much (especially on red names).


I do not want to play a character that is a burden to my party/raid and since all that I will bring to a group is moderate DPS I feel that barbarians next patch will be way more trouble then they are worth. I hope I will get used to the changes but I fear that my character of 4 years will just turn into an epic raid farming character.

Devs I beg of you dont destroy the DPS and fun of playing a barbarian, we only bring one thing to the table (dps) and when we are easily being out dps'd while requiring twice as many resources to keep alive people are not going to want barbarians in their groups.

Thanks for reading,

Hydro

Gleipner
06-09-2010, 02:21 PM
I understand you sir.

/signed

Waiting for all the why do you moan about the nerf posts. ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
06-09-2010, 02:21 PM
I never liked the self damage thing...mostly because I felt bad for healers.

But play a barb because they are fun to play...and they are :)

Who is #1, #2, #3, #4, that will just keep changing over time anyway.

thisgamesull
06-09-2010, 02:21 PM
/agreed

Sweyn
06-09-2010, 02:22 PM
Extremely well said

Instead of having your Monk's bio read "Alt of Hydro", you may have to change your Barb's bio to read "Alt of Metaru." :)

cdemeritt
06-09-2010, 02:26 PM
personally, I can't believe they are attacking the Twitch playskill... I'm not a Twitch player, my skills at it are not great.... but it is what kept many people here for so long. Not just for barbarians...

Darkrok
06-09-2010, 02:26 PM
On the plus side your hate tanking shouldn't take too much of a hit since all melee dps is being nerfed. You should still be a viable hate tank.

Gratch
06-09-2010, 02:27 PM
I feel most of your pain on my wfged barbo (who's actually been TR'ed 2x (monk/barbo)) - does that mean I triply feel a barbo's pain? Though Docent of Defiance will keep your warforged at 20 DR quite often. THough if your monk is also defianty wfged... I have no argument.

I'm gonna guess my Ftr12 Kensai/Paly 6 Defender/Rogue 2 will move to the forefront as my favorite tank again (an original redrawn and redone Batman build). It's weird how these things cycle.

I'm just hoping if the scales do get too far one way, they'll come back in a few more mods.


BATMAN IS BACK B*&#^ES! *grin*


Edit/PS: a 750 hp monk??!! That #*%* is bananas.

Hydro
06-09-2010, 02:28 PM
Extremely well said

Instead of having your Monk's bio read "Alt of Hydro", you may have to change your Barb's bio to read "Alt of Metaru." :)

Trust me I know, I almost have enough scales to make a set of Red Dragon armor and it's driving me nuts to think that I would be way better off putting it on my monk.

grodon9999
06-09-2010, 02:29 PM
/signed. These nerfs are bad for the game, all of them.

centurian1
06-09-2010, 02:35 PM
I have seriously been debating on why I would want to play my barbarian next patch with the amount of direct and indirect nerfs affecting my class. Here is my current thought proccess any input is appreciated.

DPS: My Barbarian is getting a massive DPS decrease next patch, between the Epic Sos nerf, removal of Glancing blows (while twitching), and 15% attack speed nerf (Madstone + Capstone fix) my DPS is going to drop from top place to somewhere between 3-4th place DPS. Seems kinda silly to me that a fully geared out Barbarian with an epic weapon will be outdps'd by a fighter with Dual Lightning Strike Kopeshes, or even a fighter with an Epic SoS but thats how it looks on Lamania.

Self Damage: Even with my lower DPS I am still taking 2d3 self damage a swing and between the large amount of self damage I am doing and my lack of evasion or AC I will be taking more damage then anyone else in the raid. I worry barbarians might be more of a burden on a group at this point if multiple different classes can produce equal or more dps then I am doing while taking drastically less damage.

Self Sufficency: Barbarians are the least self sufficent class in the game. I bring no buffs to the group, I require a large amount of buffs and on top of that I cant use most curative potions while raged. Fighters have versatility that I cannot bring (if they dont spend all their feats on Toughness), Paladins bring resists and divine buffs, rogues can take care of traps and UMD scrolls and wands, and rangers bring resists and bark skin. I will be going into raids asking for buffs from the casters and fellow melee classes, asking for curse removals, restores, remove blindness, etc. while doing less DPS then a more self sufficent class that can take care of their own ailments.

Tanking: Barbarians are currently the kings of hate tanking and when this patch goes live with the large DPS (hate) loss I dont know if they will retain that position. I fear that I will be loosing aggro easily and I cant even take the warforged threat enhancement sense it is bugged with Rage. If things stay how they look a fighter or monk will be a much better choice of hate tank since they can get close to the hit points of a barbarian, while taking less damage and possibly doing more DPS. Take my monk for example, he is a max STR high CON build that can get over 750hp buffed in Earth Stance. Next patch my monk is also getting a 25% incorpereal self buff that should work against red names. So for example next patch when it comes to tank a raid boss would you take the monk that can produce equal or better threat, has improved evasion, has dr10, has equal fortified raid boss dps, and 25% concealment that stacks with Cloudkill (if CK isnt nerfed) or the barbarian that has a little more HP then the monk but takes at least 50-100% more damage.

Fun: Enjoyment while playing my character is by far the most important thing for me. On Lamannia I have tried to play my barbarian and it is not fun any more. I swing like I dont have haste which is just painfull, my damage with my favorite weapon is low and I dont get enjoyement out of seeing the "big crits" that are over 100 damage lower then my current "big crits". Also by changing glancing blows I feel like I should not be twitching any more and that removes most of the active combat fun of DDO. Twitching was always a big part of the fun of playing a THF character and there is nothing I enjoy more then trying to mantain a perfect twitch in the craziest of situations. Now barbarian combat is run up to mob and autoattack while making sure your multiple rage buffs stay up. I plan on grabbing Stunning blow next patch which gives me one more button to push but doesnt really enhance my new playstyle by much (especially on red names).


I do not want to play a character that is a burden to my party/raid and since all that I will bring to a group is moderate DPS I feel that barbarians next patch will be way more trouble then they are worth. I hope I will get used to the changes but I fear that my character of 4 years will just turn into an epic raid farming character.

Devs I beg of you dont destroy the DPS and fun of playing a barbarian, we only bring one thing to the table (dps) and when we are easily being out dps'd while requiring twice as many resources to keep alive people are not going to want barbarians in their groups.

Thanks for reading,

Hydro/signed i couldnt agree with you more.Its why i rarely get the itch to want to play my barbarian anymore.I think worst thing of all since i have been playing ddo now for just over 2 years,is that i have seen the once very fun to play barbarian get increase of ineffective nerf. Theres definately a disconect with turbine and its paying customers.I feel like they give us certain improvements,just to later take them away,which to me hurts even more.After all whats the use playing a barbarian anymore like you said all they bring to the once play table was dps,Somethings wrong if a barbarian is out dps d by another class.They have no ac,and no real way to heal themselves,not to mention no ability while being enraged to take care of curse or drink any pot really.

BlackSteel
06-09-2010, 02:37 PM
I think alot of people complaining about the TWF nerf dont realize that high end barbs are taking it much worse. Going from 650 DPS down to 400. Taking self damage and only having a middling DPS now.

Chai
06-09-2010, 02:38 PM
Paladins are much better at keeping hate through hate tanking than barbs from what I have seen.

I dont think barbarians will simply be mediocre DPS. Everyone else is getting nerfed too, remember?

grodon9999
06-09-2010, 02:39 PM
I think alot of people complaining about the TWF nerf dont realize that high end barbs are taking it much worse. Going from 650 DPS down to 400. Taking self damage and only having a middling DPS now.

No - we understand it and agree that they are all absurd and bad for the game. Making the game less fun is bad, none of these changes make things more fun.

quityourjobs
06-09-2010, 02:46 PM
Epic SoS was too powerful, it needed a nerf relative to everything else out there.

Madstone boots were also too good for being a mid-level raid item. I know everyone got used to them, but I can understand fixing these. Having a unique buff like that stifles gear progression and forces everyone into the same items in the same slots.

"Fixing" the Barb capstone: This really bites. Now the Barb capstone is +2 Strength. No reason not to go 18 barb / 2 ftr now (or just 20 FTR), especially with the glancing blows change (even if the capstone ever worked correctly).

Twitching: Agreed. Barbs now have interaction that separates an afk auto-attacker from an experienced player.

Also agreed on your points about tanking and self-sufficiency: let us drink curse removal pots, already.

Gol
06-09-2010, 02:53 PM
BATMAN IS BACK B*&#^ES! *grin*
Heh... We've come full circle.

Hydro
06-09-2010, 02:53 PM
On the plus side your hate tanking shouldn't take too much of a hit since all melee dps is being nerfed. You should still be a viable hate tank.

As others have pointed out Epic Sos weilding barbarians are being hit the worst, and no if I am not doing equal or more DPS I will not be able to hate tank effectively...

Chai
06-09-2010, 03:00 PM
"Fixing" the Barb capstone: This really bites. Now the Barb capstone is +2 Strength. No reason not to go 18 barb / 2 ftr now (or just 20 FTR), especially with the glancing blows change (even if the capstone ever worked correctly).



The capstone is 2 str, however, 20 barb also gets 2 str and 2 con for mighty rage. The sacrifice will be 3 str and 2 con for going 2 levels of fighter. The other part of the capstone that grants the glance benefit never worked anyhow. What exactly are we missing from the capstone that we werent missing before?

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 03:04 PM
People will still believe barbs deals most DPS, and they will still be wrong.
Not much will change for barbs DPS relative to fighters.
Fighter > barb, before and after U5.

uhgungawa
06-09-2010, 03:05 PM
w.w.a.d. (™)

Hydro
06-09-2010, 03:05 PM
The capstone is 2 str, however, 20 barb also gets 2 str and 2 con for mighty rage. The sacrifice will be 3 str and 2 con for going 2 levels of fighter. The other part of the capstone that grants the glance benefit never worked anyhow. What exactly are we missing from the capstone that we werent missing before?

10% melee alacrity...

Emili
06-09-2010, 03:07 PM
The capstone is 2 str, however, 20 barb also gets 2 str and 2 con for mighty rage. The sacrifice will be 3 str and 2 con for going 2 levels of fighter. The other part of the capstone that grants the glance benefit never worked anyhow. What exactly are we missing from the capstone that we werent missing before?
The capstone had a hidden (unintended) feature of alacrity.

grodon9999
06-09-2010, 03:08 PM
w.w.a.d. (™)

What would Axer do?

Gercho
06-09-2010, 03:11 PM
I dont think pure fighters bring much more to the table than pure barbarians besides dps... barbarians have damage reduction and higher hp pool aswell, so that top barbarians have similar damage to top fighters its ok imho...

Its hard to argue which class/style should have higher dps... you will have arguments equally valid for fighter and barbarian, and twf have arguments for them over thf aswell... obviously, if you had the top dps char and moves to third, it hurts, but it was fair that was top dps before? or is more fair now? i cant give an answer to that...

uhgungawa
06-09-2010, 03:11 PM
What would Axer do?

DING DING, you get a prize. +1 :D

Chai
06-09-2010, 03:15 PM
People will still believe barbs deals most DPS, and they will still be wrong.
Not much will change for barbs DPS relative to fighters.
Fighter > barb, before and after U5.

In a vacuum, yes. We dont play in a vacuum. I will take quality players over quantity classes any day.

Lleren
06-09-2010, 03:16 PM
What is the change to madstone boots? I missed that.

Hydro
06-09-2010, 03:17 PM
I dont think pure fighters bring much more to the table than pure barbarians besides dps... barbarians have damage reduction and higher hp pool aswell, so that top barbarians have similar damage to top fighters its ok imho...

Its hard to argue which class/style should have higher dps... you will have arguments equally valid for fighter and barbarian, and twf have arguments for them over thf aswell... obviously, if you had the top dps char and moves to third, it hurts, but it was fair that was top dps before? or is more fair now? i cant give an answer to that...

A fighter can bring lots of different things to a group if he doesnt have 7 feats in Toughness.

Fighters can have AC pretty easily, fighters can spend feats to boost intimidate, improved trip, and UMD. Fighters can also not use rage so they can get their own curses and negative ailments. The line isnt huge but its there and since fighter will be top DPS why wouldnt you just bring a fighter. (having Mod 0-3 flashbacks)

kingfisher
06-09-2010, 03:19 PM
I have seriously been debating on why I would want to play my barbarian next patch with the amount of direct and indirect nerfs affecting my class. [

cool icon?

Hydro
06-09-2010, 03:21 PM
What is the change to madstone boots? I missed that.

The haste effect of Madstons has been reduced to be 5% lower then haste, when before it was 5% higher.

Deathseeker
06-09-2010, 03:25 PM
People will still believe barbs deals most DPS, and they will still be wrong.
Not much will change for barbs DPS relative to fighters.
Fighter > barb, before and after U5.

This?

I believe Barbs still have the highest HP in the game by far, and the highest Stun DC's in the game by far.

Whatever made you play the Barb pre-nerf compared to a Fighter, how has that changed? If you believed Barb DPS was higher than fighter, what is making it lower? If you believed it was lower, why did you play the Barb?

Or is there an aspect of the nerf that hits Barbs harder than fighters that I'm overlooking?

oweieie
06-09-2010, 03:27 PM
DPS: My Barbarian is getting a massive DPS decrease next patch

Barbs will still be ahead of pretty much everyone else and WAY ahead of casters vs. bosses.


between the Epic Sos nerf

Barbs were DPS king before ESoS. Nerfing it really changes nothing. Besides, they had to nerf it to make room for epic cloudburst. You KNOW it's coming.


removal of Glancing blows (while twitching)

Good. One of the most ******** things in the game.


and 15% attack speed nerf (Madstone + Capstone fix)

Epic madstones.


my DPS is going to drop from top place to somewhere between 3-4th place DPS. Seems kinda silly to me that a fully geared out Barbarian with an epic weapon will be outdps'd by a fighter with Dual Lightning Strike Kopeshes, or even a fighter with an Epic SoS but thats how it looks on Lamania.

Doubt it.


Self Damage: Even with my lower DPS I am still taking 2d3 self damage a swing and between the large amount of self damage I am doing and my lack of evasion or AC I will be taking more damage then anyone else in the raid. I worry barbarians might be more of a burden on a group at this point if multiple different classes can produce equal or more dps then I am doing while taking drastically less damage.

I don't even notice the barb self damage. It gets cleaned up in the mass heals or is trivial compared to the mob's DPS. It really doesn't matter. For out of combat healing silver flame pots make a small amount of self damage meaningless as well.


Self Sufficency: Barbarians are the least self sufficent class in the game. I bring no buffs to the group, I require a large amount of buffs and on top of that I cant use most curative potions while raged. Fighters have versatility that I cannot bring (if they dont spend all their feats on Toughness), Paladins bring resists and divine buffs, rogues can take care of traps and UMD scrolls and wands, and rangers bring resists and bark skin. I will be going into raids asking for buffs from the casters and fellow melee classes, asking for curse removals, restores, remove blindness, etc. while doing less DPS then a more self sufficent class that can take care of their own ailments.

Well since the other classes won't be madstoning anymore this is actually mostly true. But you can cancel rage and use pots like everyone else. Fighters only get 5 haste boosts for 20 seconds, so it's not like perma rage is mandatory.


Fun: Enjoyment while playing my character is by far the most important thing for me. On Lamannia I have tried to play my barbarian and it is not fun any more. I swing like I dont have haste which is just painfull, my damage with my favorite weapon is low and I dont get enjoyement out of seeing the "big crits" that are over 100 damage lower then my current "big crits". Also by changing glancing blows I feel like I should not be twitching any more and that removes most of the active combat fun of DDO. Twitching was always a big part of the fun of playing a THF character and there is nothing I enjoy more then trying to mantain a perfect twitch in the craziest of situations. Now barbarian combat is run up to mob and autoattack while making sure your multiple rage buffs stay up. I plan on grabbing Stunning blow next patch which gives me one more button to push but doesnt really enhance my new playstyle by much (especially on red names).

It's nice you enjoy twitching, most don't. Getting a repetitive stress injury to increase my DPS by a few percentage points is not even REMOTELY my idea of fun. As for swing speed, it's just something you're used to. Some games have dramatically slower attack speed, like 5 seconds between swings, so a 20% reduction in attack speed is not something major. DDO attack speed is already 5 times that of PnP


I do not want to play a character that is a burden to my party/raid

You kill jailer before the ENTIRE REST OF THE RAID can kill judge. Give me a ****ing break. Burden my anus. Nerf barbs harder. They're easy mode fighters with higher DPS.

Gercho
06-09-2010, 03:28 PM
This?

I believe Barbs still have the highest HP in the game by far, and the highest Stun DC's in the game by far.

Whatever made you play the Barb pre-nerf compared to a Fighter, how has that changed? If you believed Barb DPS was higher than fighter, what is making it lower? If you believed it was lower, why did you play the Barb?

Or is there an aspect of the nerf that hits Barbs harder than fighters that I'm overlooking?

the fix to the capstone hits only barbarians, but in the other hand, most people that chosed barbarian didnt even knew about the bug...(as far as i know at least it was discovered a little ago) so they didnt pick barbarian because that, so the question should be, if when you picked barbarian you thought barbarian was highest dps than fighter, why that should change now?

Emili
06-09-2010, 03:30 PM
... and so it is...

Tommorow is strange my observance of my level 20 melee ... fighter, barb, two tempest, monk, pally, rogue made me realize a tremendous shift... and those with built in procs and the means of double-strike shifted dps to those classes with built-in procs by far... My neglected twf 34 str standing kotc pally actually out-performs my decked out twf 40 str kensai fighter go figure and she alialated my well geared frenzied barb because twitching for most part (even while frenzied) took such a hit. THF feats are less worth effort of the slots space and I cannot think of something worth it's place in holding either ... least nothing to increase dps.



You kill jailer before the ENTIRE REST OF THE RAID can kill judge. Give me a ****ing break. Burden my anus. Nerf barbs harder. They're easy mode fighters with higher DPS.
You're a funny one... so could any tweaked fighter ranger or pally. The Jailor is just a slightly overgrown orthon. :p There is a lot of truth to Hydro's concern... as Barbs were not the highest DPS in game ... they could be highest dps in party but in practice often not... My fighter has pulled agro from tons of barbs running at mid 60's to 70+ str at the time with bloody tharn (20% less threat)... My barb - love her - is a competitive melee ... maxed str berzerker and tweaked yet was only comparable to my kensai, tempests and pally... not really any significant high emd over them. You see there are two parts of the DPS equation Damage and Time. THF as a style overall is slower - a lot slower - unless you interupted the attack chains... the barb capstone (although unintentional) was actually balancing to some respecs... the new kings of DPS are going to be those classes which produce extra class procs and as many of them as they may fit in... I wonder what would take to go twf barb without not maxing str or dropping con?

Anthios888
06-09-2010, 03:38 PM
People played and enjoyed barbarians before the broken capstone or epic SoS ever entered the game.

I can understand the frustration of having the weapon retroactively get less powerful, but the short-lived capstone and madstone boots were obviously bugs that would be fixed eventually.

I daresay if you can figure out the logic to think out this post, you can come up with ways to bring your barbarian up to speed with how the game is now -- as every toon has to do every 2 mods. The folks who copied Axer's template for an easy-to-gear dps tank playstyle will have to re-evaluate their build choices and think about what's next -- just as he himself has every update.

Unfortunately, most people will just reroll and blame it on turbine instead of coming up with fresh ideas for themselves. We're in a forum environment where the shouts of "nerf nerf," "2hf is worthless" and/or "2wf is worthless" drown out the middle ground. Heck, we didn't even know about the capstone until like a month ago, and losing those extra attacks is a big blow, but it's not like we ever expected that to be in place when FB was designed.

For me, looking forward means I am still a fan of the dual khopesh 18 barbarian / 2 rogue with top shelf DPS thanks to haste boosts and sneak attack damage, measured incoming damage thanks to evasion, nofail UMD for difficult situations and flexibility, and some downright fun options for epic gear. It does everything just right. I would post the build (Fanforged on Ghallanda), but I know it would start a flame war. I refuse to deal in barbarian builds except privately. For others, it might be making their 2HF barbarian loses its glancing blow feats in favor of stunning blow or other. And for still others, it could mean keeping that barbarian as-is and accepting that everyone got damage reductions this mod, and breathing a sigh of relief that they don't have to dance around to get the dps edge. And for a good player ... all of the above will be extremely successful. For a mediocre player, their 4-round shroud disaster will be Turbine's fault, not teamwork's fault.

Sweyn
06-09-2010, 03:47 PM
w.w.a.d. (™)

Rofl

Hydro
06-09-2010, 03:50 PM
You kill jailer before the ENTIRE REST OF THE RAID can kill judge. Give me a ****ing break. Burden my anus. Nerf barbs harder. They're easy mode fighters with higher DPS.

Since we have raided together may I ask who this is?

moops
06-09-2010, 03:56 PM
Yes, any Epic Raid tokens you get can be converted to Dungeon tokens and are BTA--I take my gimps in Epic Raids all the time :)

While it might not be fun for you to play him, the torture will only be for 6-12 mins depending on the group make up.

But seriously, I'm sure you all will find a way to reinvent the wheel and make your barbs fun again:)

And honestly--a little loss of DPS is not going to make any player a burden, as well as many groups already do not use WF as their main tanks in raids--we will all come with strategies based around what we ourselves want to do--if you want to be main tank, youll figure out a a way to do it, and keep aggro--heck I keep aggro on my Dex Based ranger when Im on Sulu and shes a Gimp:)-

shablala
06-09-2010, 03:56 PM
DPS: My Barbarian is getting a massive DPS decrease next patch, between the Epic Sos nerf, removal of Glancing blows (while twitching), and 15% attack speed nerf (Madstone + Capstone fix) my DPS is going to drop from top place to somewhere between 3-4th place DPS. Seems kinda silly to me that a fully geared out Barbarian with an epic weapon will be outdps'd by a fighter with Dual Lightning Strike Kopeshes, or even a fighter with an Epic SoS but thats how it looks on Lamania.
First of all most of these things you mentioned are effecting everyone, not just barbarians. Second, I would expect a pure fighter dual wielding lightning Kopeshes to out DPS a FB Barb on a single target, nerf or not. That's the way it should be actually. Third I cant see how a Fighter with SoS will have a significant advantage over a barb with SoS. And what does an item have to do with a class?



Self Damage: Even with my lower DPS I am still taking 2d3 self damage a swing and between the large amount of self damage I am doing and my lack of evasion or AC I will be taking more damage then anyone else in the raid. I worry barbarians might be more of a burden on a group at this point if multiple different classes can produce equal or more dps then I am doing while taking drastically less damage.

I believe that is balanced by the DR Barbs get naturally, as well as the DR boosts. An AC revamp is WAY over due.



Self Sufficency: Barbarians are the least self sufficent class in the game. I bring no buffs to the group, I require a large amount of buffs and on top of that I cant use most curative potions while raged. Fighters have versatility that I cannot bring (if they dont spend all their feats on Toughness), Paladins bring resists and divine buffs, rogues can take care of traps and UMD scrolls and wands, and rangers bring resists and bark skin. I will be going into raids asking for buffs from the casters and fellow melee classes, asking for curse removals, restores, remove blindness, etc. while doing less DPS then a more self sufficent class that can take care of their own ailments.

Oh come on, I assume you are a decent vet who knows their class limitations. Any high lvl toon not running with an assortment of potions/clickies to take care of most of this stuff IS really a burden and not because of the class mechanics.



Tanking: Barbarians are currently the kings of hate tanking and when this patch goes live with the large DPS (hate) loss I dont know if they will retain that position. I fear that I will be loosing aggro easily and I cant even take the warforged threat enhancement sense it is bugged with Rage. If things stay how they look a fighter or monk will be a much better choice of hate tank since they can get close to the hit points of a barbarian, while taking less damage and possibly doing more DPS. Take my monk for example, he is a max STR high CON build that can get over 750hp buffed in Earth Stance. Next patch my monk is also getting a 25% incorpereal self buff that should work against red names. So for example next patch when it comes to tank a raid boss would you take the monk that can produce equal or better threat, has improved evasion, has dr10, has equal fortified raid boss dps, and 25% concealment that stacks with Cloudkill (if CK isnt nerfed) or the barbarian that has a little more HP then the monk but takes at least 50-100% more damage.

Finally, about time Fighters and Pallies get their rightful place as Tanks. You shouldnt really complain about this, since you were complaining about being a burden, low ac, no evasion etc... The way I see it, this is a position change for a barb. Now you can dish out the damage and not retain all the aggro, hence being less of a burden.


Now on another plus side, Barbs are indirectly getting a nice boost to their Stunning Blow DC.

quityourjobs
06-09-2010, 04:01 PM
Well since the other classes won't be madstoning anymore this is actually mostly true. But you can cancel rage and use pots like everyone else. Fighters only get 5 haste boosts for 20 seconds, so it's not like perma rage is mandatory.


Funny.

Krag
06-09-2010, 04:06 PM
Now on another plus side, Barbs are indirectly getting a nice boost to their Stunning Blow DC.

I have no idea what are you talking about.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 04:09 PM
If playing without the barbarian (or fighter) capstone 10% speed bonus is unbearable....

then how can people enjoy playing barbarians or fighters from levels 1-19?

I have a TR fighter who is currently level 18... I've had a lot of fun with him... I actually don't use madstone very often (except for boss fights), because I have haste and displacement Shroud clickables that I like to have running all the time.

Are you guys saying that combat is totally unfun and unbearable until you reach level 20?

oweieie
06-09-2010, 04:12 PM
You're a funny one... so could any tweaked fighter ranger or pally. The Jailor is just a slightly overgrown orthon.

No, rangers, fighters and pallys simply do not come close to barb DPS right now with ESoS.


My fighter has pulled agro from tons of barbs running at mid 60's to 70+ str at the time with bloody tharn (20% less threat)...

This really means nothing. I've pulled and held shadow master aggro on a monk before with tharne's (which I don't think works on fists anyway). I've pulled and held (while blocking) Horoth aggro off barbs with my monk before. Aggro is just as buggy as the rest of the game. Heck, I've pulled aggro WITH MY WIZARD who does maybe 120 DPS with maxed out polar rays. I think to do 120 DPS a melee has to use a masterwork weapon they're not proficient with while running in circles blinded on a mob with heavy fort and incorporeal.

bobbryan2
06-09-2010, 04:13 PM
then how can people enjoy playing barbarians or fighters from levels 1-19?


How can people enjoy playing ANYTHING from levels 1-19. :)

But seriously... bringing up 'leveling up' while having a discussion of end game raid class balance is a little like a bait and switch. Leveling up has very little to do with the 20th level version of something.

That's like saying... if the 10 DR and infinite cure light wounds were so amazing playing a favored soul... how could anyone enjoy them from level 1-19.

A meaningless statement.

Emili
06-09-2010, 04:13 PM
Funny.
Funny thing be, I do get the impression he's neither a barbarian nor a fighter to really note the differences.

maddmatt70
06-09-2010, 04:21 PM
Strange arguments Hydro based on little to no facts. Barbarians lose less dps then fighters next mod. Actually in general barbarians and rogues lose the least dps next mod. Fighters lose their offhand attack speed with the fighter capstone , pally lose zeal offhand, rangers lose primary attack speed, etc. whereas barbarians do not lose any attack speed that all twf or thf do not already lose and rogue do not lose any attack speed and gain 7d6 SA, monks gain a little through their PRE, but lose attack speed.

Emili
06-09-2010, 04:21 PM
No, rangers, fighters and pallys simply do not come close to barb DPS right now with ESoS.



This really means nothing. I've pulled and held shadow master aggro on a monk before with tharne's (which I don't think works on fists anyway). I've pulled and held (while blocking) Horoth aggro off barbs with my monk before. Aggro is just as buggy as the rest of the game. Heck, I've pulled aggro WITH MY WIZARD who does maybe 120 DPS with maxed out polar rays. I think to do 120 DPS a melee has to use a masterwork weapon they're not proficient with while running in circles blinded on a mob with heavy fort and incorporeal.
That depends on a teleporting mob... they're agro is reset on teleport. I run my frenzzied barb, kensai and tempests fequently and I do know the consistancies lay I see and the speed I see in delivery of damages... to tout BARBS are THE dps is ridiculas. Especially when placed into practice.


Strange arguments Hydro based on little to no facts. Barbarians lose less dps then fighters next mod. Actually in general barbarians and rogues lose the least dps next mod. Fighters lose their offhand attack speed with the fighter capstone , pally lose zeal offhand, rangers lose primary attack speed, etc. whereas barbarians do not lose any attack speed that all twf or thf do not already lose and rogue do not lose any attack speed and gain 7d6 SA, monks gain a little through their PRE, but lose attack speed.

What is missing here was 1.) the barb had an unintended 12% boost in capstone and 2.) the twitch was comparable to another 12% ... in retrospect the feel of the THF character seems and reacts less to much more degree then the twf change on lammania ... the diffence in play is much more visible.

Actually Norg while playing on lammania the three characters I felt most comfortable and least affected with were my Monk, Pally and Rogue... was those three I felt I could rely on key clicking the most. The thf Barbarian twitch is a thing of the past - the difference without twitching felt a higher damage output then twitch but I still felt like I was in some sports replay scene... and in such cases come single target the procs from double-strike comming off those classes which deliver class procs - smites, weapons of good, SA and yes monk key damages seemed to deliver more in my hands... I was in control of the character and the characters options for play more exhilerating.

On a side note have anyone tested archery? I've not since the no-roll within 30' bug was extremely exagerated on Lammania... was missing three out of four shots rolls in close range.

Gratch
06-09-2010, 04:27 PM
w.w.a.d. (™)

Ooh... is this one multiple choice. Okay, I'll play:

Selections:

A) Boot the fighter, monk, rogue out of the group, get another healer, bard, or barbo in.
B) Get the EPIC SOS and then ask that it's made much tougher to get.
C) TwItCh, even if you're not fighting.
D) Talk about strength... massive amounts of strength. bask in it. BASK. Ask devs why your D&D strength carrying capacity equals a mountainside, yet why can't you have a back-mounted Ballista to carry around?!
E) All of the above at once.

Chai
06-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Alot of people seem to think the class they like to play the most is going to be dead after the update.

There was an "OMG rogues are dead!!"" thread a few days ago. I hear other people saying they will lead DPS or be close to it in 50% fort situations. - Lots of contradictions.

There is also a "THF is dead, TWF is king" style thread

There is a "What am I going to do with my monster after the nerf bat has spoken" thread.

This all shows that people think their chosen class is affected the most, and it ALSO shows that no one has any real idea who is getting nerfed the hardest.

Yeah yeah, go ahead and plow in here with your DPS spreadsheets and show me how I am wrong. We dont play in a vacuum, so I dont really take that stuff too seriously.

QuantumFX
06-09-2010, 04:44 PM
Because: I need the passive past life feat to qualify for completionist.

Hydro
06-09-2010, 04:57 PM
Strange arguments Hydro based on little to no facts. Barbarians lose less dps then fighters next mod. Actually in general barbarians and rogues lose the least dps next mod. Fighters lose their offhand attack speed with the fighter capstone , pally lose zeal offhand, rangers lose primary attack speed, etc. whereas barbarians do not lose any attack speed that all twf or thf do not already lose and rogue do not lose any attack speed and gain 7d6 SA, monks gain a little through their PRE, but lose attack speed.

I fully get that none of the nerfs are aimed toward the barbarian class specifically it is more the general nerfs (Sos, Twitch) on top of the fix to remove the melee alacrity from the still bugged barbarian capstone.

When you add those up from what I have read the Barbarian wielding an Epic Sos is getting hit the hardest, even though I do agree that an Epic SoS weilding fighter is getting hit almost as hard.

It really is about loosing the fun of THF, for me that fun was practicing twitch and watching crazy high numbers pop above my head. I wish I had some haste boosts, or heck any boost that is worth stopping my swings to activate.

I have spent a lot of time on the test server and I have a feeling anyone who plays a THF is going to be very dissapointed with how combat feels after the patch.

Really they should not nerf glancing blows while moving and they should add something else to the Barbarian capstone since the glancing blows functions never worked.

Chai
06-09-2010, 05:05 PM
Really they should not nerf glancing blows while moving and they should add something else to the Barbarian capstone since the glancing blows functions never worked.

They have said they are going to put something in for the THF feats that give you glance proc % just like offhand proc % for the TWF.

I would rather see them not take glancing while moving out of the game until they have it completely figured out however. Taking glances out and giving us nothing in return is bunk.

I have also played on test and I think the change is pretty lame. Until they figure out how to give us the glance % we are stuck with having to be nailed to the floor if we want glancing blows. This defeats the entire purpose of the playstyle.

The capstone is also seeing the same treatment.

eulogy098
06-09-2010, 05:10 PM
Ive tested my barbs dps on the test server and i can tell you flat out- it IS losing more dps than my 12f/6ra/2mo is. I enjoy shades portal dps challenge and my barb goes from a 32 second kill to a 46 second kill. My dwarf Fighter goes from a 54 second kill to a 57 second kill (my fighter is nowhere near as geard).

You do the math on who's losing more.

Ill still play my barb, hes my most invested in and simply favorite class type. That doesn't change the fact that barbarians are getting hit very hard in this update.

Solution-

Fix the capstone BEFORE nerfing the unintended effect.
Under no circumstance should Glancing blows be removed from movement.
Fix the goram capstone before nerfing it.
Fix the capstone
Fix the capstone
FIX THE CAPSTONE
and dont give it a lame fix, barb capstone damage should be at least as much DPS as the fighter one.

oh, and do something about the fact that using Barbarian Damage Boost lowers ones DPS output. ive got videos proving that too. Be lazy and turn it into haste boost, or do it proper and turn it into %based damage increase.



/rant off

Emili
06-09-2010, 05:10 PM
I fully get that none of the nerfs are aimed toward the barbarian class specifically it is more the general nerfs (Sos, Twitch) on top of the fix to remove the melee alacrity from the still bugged barbarian capstone.

When you add those up from what I have read the Barbarian wielding an Epic Sos is getting hit the hardest, even though I do agree that an Epic SoS weilding fighter is getting hit almost as hard.

It really is about loosing the fun of THF, for me that fun was practicing twitch and watching crazy high numbers pop above my head. I wish I had some haste boosts, or heck any boost that is worth stopping my swings to activate.

I have spent a lot of time on the test server and I have a feeling anyone who plays a THF is going to be very dissapointed with how combat feels after the patch.

Really they should not nerf glancing blows while moving and they should add something else to the Barbarian capstone since the glancing blows functions never worked.

... and this is honest. All who argue your point otherwise with him - this is how he feels. When I listed the toons I felt like playing less of after playing them all on lammania for three days some people responded with ... OH you tested all those characters... well yes and I stated my general feelings about playing my fighter less, playing my barb less, playing my tempests less, playing my pally more, playing my cleric less,,, and so forth people asked why and said well everyone is getting the same nerfs across the boards ... but they're not entirely the same nerfs in same degrees and difference in each and every character not the same... and the result in general for me was certain characters are less fun on lammania and most likely will carry onto the live servers.

Therilith
06-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Making the game less fun is bad, none of these changes make things more fun.

A balanced game is a fun game.

kaelis
06-09-2010, 05:21 PM
Because: I need the passive past life feat to qualify for completionist.

Are you just starting your lives? Barb is like one of the best past lives to have along the road to completionist. Up in the top 3 with Paladin and Fighter, IMO at least.

Lleren
06-09-2010, 05:22 PM
The haste effect of Madstons has been reduced to be 5% lower then haste, when before it was 5% higher.

Ah. Well I'll likely keep farming for them on the characters that can use them, the exta hps help my Rogue survive the Shroud.

Hydro
06-09-2010, 05:26 PM
... and this is honest. All who argue your point otherwise with him - this is how he feels. When I listed the toons I felt like playing less of after playing them all on lammania for three days some people responded with ... OH you tested all those characters... well yes and I stated my general feelings about playing my fighter less, playing my barb less, playing my tempests less, playing my pally more, playing my cleric less,,, and so forth people asked why and said well everyone is getting the same nerfs across the boards ... but they're not entirely the same nerfs in same degrees and difference in each and every character not the same... and the result in general for me was certain characters are less fun on lammania and most likely will carry onto the live servers.


Thank you for truly understanding this post, I wish I could give you some rep but I am all out for today.

uhgungawa
06-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Ooh... is this one multiple choice. Okay, I'll play:

Selections:

A) Boot the fighter, monk, rogue out of the group, get another healer, bard, or barbo in.
B) Get the EPIC SOS and then ask that it's made much tougher to get.
C) TwItCh, even if you're not fighting.
D) Talk about strength... massive amounts of strength. bask in it. BASK. Ask devs why your D&D strength carrying capacity equals a mountainside, yet why can't you have a back-mounted Ballista to carry around?!
E) All of the above at once non stop.

Fixed it for ya ;)

joaofalcao
06-09-2010, 05:34 PM
I give you one reason to play a barbarian. Because its fun to swing an axe. Or greatsword. Or to rage. It is still the most DPSable class, inst it?

So monsters take more time to kill? They got more time to counterattack, to give you dmg? I honestly think thats good. AC matters more now. So does agro management.

You taking more dmg now? You can quit the game, yes. Or you can talk to your party members to make a strategy to better manage agro.

I think easy quests should be casuall quests. Most difficult quests or quest modes should require more party strategy, not more raid loot or better gear and "self sufficiency". Zerging quests is very silly, for it requires just a huge amount of damage to mobs and little interaction between party members.

Those "nerfs" on melee are a good sign the game is going in a good direction. Hopefully the game is going to make strategy and interaction more important than itens and builds. When I say zerging is silly, its because it doesnt makes much sense to play an online gaming with other people.... without interacting. Does that makes sense to you guys?

Hydro
06-09-2010, 05:38 PM
I give you one reason to play a barbarian. Because its fun to swing an axe. Or greatsword. Or to rage. It is still the most DPSable class, inst it?

So monsters take more time to kill? They got more time to counterattack, to give you dmg? I honestly think thats good. AC matters more now. So does agro management.

You taking more dmg now? You can quit the game, yes. Or you can talk to your party members to make a strategy to better manage agro.

I think easy quests should be casuall quests. Most difficult quests or quest modes should require more party strategy, not more raid loot or better gear and "self sufficiency". Zerging quests is very silly, for it requires just a huge amount of damage to mobs and little interaction between party members.

Those "nerfs" on melee are a good sign the game is going in a good direction. Hopefully the game is going to make strategy and interaction more important than itens and builds. When I say zerging is silly, its because it doesnt makes much sense to play an online gaming with other people.... without interacting. Does that makes sense to you guys?

No it is not the most DPSable class anymore and that was part of my point. The rest of your thread makes no sense to the relevance of this post....

Emili
06-09-2010, 05:41 PM
Thank you for truly understanding this post, I wish I could give you some rep but I am all out for today.
Thanks not be neccessary. ;)

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 05:47 PM
A meaningless statement.

I'm not talking about DPS here... I'm talking about people saying "it's so slow... it's like playing in molasses... it's just not fun"... But for most of the game, barbarians and fighters ARE that slow... but I still think the combat is fun and dynamic and not at all like playing in molasses...

QuantumFX
06-09-2010, 05:47 PM
Are you just starting your lives? Barb is like one of the best past lives to have along the road to completionist. Up in the top 3 with Paladin and Fighter, IMO at least.

The passive ranger past life is pretty sweet too. You roll through the first few levels of DDO constantly thinking “Don’t these attacks usually do more damage?”

I’m plotting on getting the holy trinity of “past lives I don’t want to do” first. I really don’t want to do rogue, again, (as I’ve already done it a couple times) so I’m using my freebie +3 Lesser hearts to qualify for the rogue past life feat. Then it’s 2 Rogue/2 Fighter/16 Barb followed by 2 Rogue/2 Monk/16 Fighter. (I find rogue levels pretty nice for XP farming purposes.) After that I will probably tackle an arcane.

Pyromaniac
06-09-2010, 05:54 PM
/signed

Chai
06-09-2010, 05:55 PM
So monsters take more time to kill? They got more time to counterattack, to give you dmg? I honestly think thats good. AC matters more now. So does agro management.



Pray tell us how a barbarian of all classes is going to ever get an AC that matters.

Ever.

Dont worry, I'll wait.

http://ohellnawlblog.com/newohnblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/katt-williams.jpg

Hydro
06-09-2010, 06:01 PM
I'm not talking about DPS here... I'm talking about people saying "it's so slow... it's like playing in molasses... it's just not fun"... But for most of the game, barbarians and fighters ARE that slow... but I still think the combat is fun and dynamic and not at all like playing in molasses...

Most mobs all the way up to 20 have very little health, a THF is usually one or two shotting anythign in his path until Gianthold. After GH the mobs have slightly more health but its not until Raids and Epics are you beating against mobs with 5000+ hp.

My barbarian on Lamannia with haste swings at almost the exact same speed as my barbarian does on live completely unbuffed. So yeah thats slow like molasses, my barbarian next patch will need haste just to get back to his unbuffed standing swing speed currently.

But yeah I am swing speed junkie, from the old mash trip and attack blender move, to the first swing speed slow down, to the 20% to 15% haste nerf and now the capstone "fix" and madstone nerf I have seen the attack speeds go way down and now they are just to low. It is at the point that characters in WoW swing as fast as characters do in DDO. (Dont even get me started on the jump animation changing to WoW style or the fact the Red Fens is a clone of Zangamarsh in WoW)

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 06:40 PM
Whatever... fighters and barbarians don't seem to swing slow from 1-19 for most people... at 20 they'll still swing the same speed...

Only you guys who have been farming epics at 20 for the last year are affected (sorry, I've been TRing so I never got used to the 20th level swing speed).... Vast majority of the gamers won't even notice this nerf.

Sorry you're screwed.

Gunga
06-09-2010, 06:42 PM
People played and enjoyed barbarians before the broken capstone or epic SoS ever entered the game.

I can understand the frustration of having the weapon retroactively get less powerful, but the short-lived capstone and madstone boots were obviously bugs that would be fixed eventually.

I daresay if you can figure out the logic to think out this post, you can come up with ways to bring your barbarian up to speed with how the game is now -- as every toon has to do every 2 mods. The folks who copied Axer's template for an easy-to-gear dps tank playstyle will have to re-evaluate their build choices and think about what's next -- just as he himself has every update.

Unfortunately, most people will just reroll and blame it on turbine instead of coming up with fresh ideas for themselves. We're in a forum environment where the shouts of "nerf nerf," "2hf is worthless" and/or "2wf is worthless" drown out the middle ground. Heck, we didn't even know about the capstone until like a month ago, and losing those extra attacks is a big blow, but it's not like we ever expected that to be in place when FB was designed.

For me, looking forward means I am still a fan of the dual khopesh 18 barbarian / 2 rogue with top shelf DPS thanks to haste boosts and sneak attack damage, measured incoming damage thanks to evasion, nofail UMD for difficult situations and flexibility, and some downright fun options for epic gear. It does everything just right. I would post the build (Fanforged on Ghallanda), but I know it would start a flame war. I refuse to deal in barbarian builds except privately. For others, it might be making their 2HF barbarian loses its glancing blow feats in favor of stunning blow or other. And for still others, it could mean keeping that barbarian as-is and accepting that everyone got damage reductions this mod, and breathing a sigh of relief that they don't have to dance around to get the dps edge. And for a good player ... all of the above will be extremely successful. For a mediocre player, their 4-round shroud disaster will be Turbine's fault, not teamwork's fault.

See how her eyes glow like that when she smacks you a codpiece of sobering logic?

Hawt.

toughguyjoe
06-09-2010, 06:42 PM
http://ohellnawlblog.com/newohnblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/katt-williams.jpg


Man, Turbine be sellin us these Nerfs man!

And these Nerfs be gettin Stronger, EVERY TWO WEEKS!

No reason for these Nerfs to get so strong man! And Developers be happy as hell to tell you how strong these Nerfs be gettin!

Now as far as people who don't be playin DDO I mean if you got a woman, or got you a good job i mean, by all means make yo paper boo-boo.

But...if you ain't got no Job.....If you ain't got no responsibilities....I have no idea why you'd quit playin this game sucka.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 06:43 PM
Pray tell us how a barbarian of all classes is going to ever get an AC that matters.

Ever.

Dont worry, I'll wait.


An 18/2 barbarian/fighter can have awesome DPS with his greataxe (95% of the time), and still slip into AC mode (5% of the time - mid 70s AC - good enough for most raids on normal) with a high intimidate.

AC for normal raids is just gear... AC for elite raids is builds (Stalward Defender, etc.)

kingfisher
06-09-2010, 06:44 PM
. It is at the point that characters in WoW swing as fast as characters do in DDO. (Dont even get me started on the jump animation changing to WoW style or the fact the Red Fens is a clone of Zangamarsh in WoW)

truth! the speed of combat has long set this game apart. you dont have the time or 4000 hp to suck, you either kill them or they kill you. the wowification to accomodate the new ex-wow player base continues. after nerfdate5 and we lose combat what is next? class names? run and fetch quests? camping?

Ssmooth
06-09-2010, 07:33 PM
truth! nerfdate5


LMAO!! Nerfdate5...that's just funny.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 07:54 PM
truth! the speed of combat has long set this game apart. you dont have the time or 4000 hp to suck, you either kill them or they kill you. the wowification to accomodate the new ex-wow player base continues. after nerfdate5 and we lose combat what is next? class names? run and fetch quests? camping?

Again, is the speed of combat for a 19th level fighter the same as WOW?

Because that's all that is happening.. We're losing the 10% bonus at 20... and madstone 5%

Is a 1st-19th level fighter or barbarian who is hasted but no madstone a total drag to play? No... Speed of combat is barely affected.

BlackSteel
06-09-2010, 08:02 PM
Again, is the speed of combat for a 19th level fighter the same as WOW?

Because that's all that is happening.. We're losing the 10% bonus at 20... and madstone 5%

Is a 1st-19th level fighter or barbarian who is hasted but no madstone a total drag to play? No... Speed of combat is barely affected.

thrud, you're not comparing the same things here. I could care less if I was just slowed down 10%. My main beef is that even on live, from 1 to even 20, autoattack is disgusting on a THF. autoattack on live is already slow as molasses, and its going to be even worse.

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 08:22 PM
In a vacuum, yes. We dont play in a vacuum. I will take quality players over quantity classes any day.
Fighters have more DPS potential than barbs. That's a proven fact.
Putting a great player behind a barb doesn't make the class any better.
Comparing the DPS of a bad played fighter to a good played barb would just be incredibly dumb.

This: "I will take quality players over quantity classes any day" What do you mean, exactly?
That you would take a good player with a lesser build over a bad player with a better build?
No **** sherlock!!!


No it is not the most DPSable class anymore and that was part of my point. The rest of your thread makes no sense to the relevance of this post....

Barbs haven't been the most DPSable class for a long time, if ever.
People think so because of the high STR and high crit numbers, and ofcourse the axe class symbol.
But it's a myth.

Gunga
06-09-2010, 08:25 PM
Barbs haven't been the most DPSable class for a long time, if ever.
People think so because of the high STR and high crit numbers, and ofcourse the axe class symbol.
But it's a myth.

Why don't WF TWF 20th level fighters with dual min II's take agro from me then?

I guess the game is broke, and we should just listen to you. :rolleyes:

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 08:29 PM
Why don't WF TWF 20th level fighters with dual min II's take agro from me then?

I guess the game is broke, and we should just listen to you. :rolleyes:

Probably because you use epic sos?

Gunga
06-09-2010, 08:32 PM
Probably because you use epic sos?

Swing and a miss.

Strike 1.

kingfisher
06-09-2010, 08:37 PM
LMAO!! Nerfdate5...that's just funny.

i did not coin that one (shade) but its funny, and sadly appropriate


Again, is the speed of combat for a 19th level fighter the same as WOW?

Because that's all that is happening.. We're losing the 10% bonus at 20... and madstone 5%

Is a 1st-19th level fighter or barbarian who is hasted but no madstone a total drag to play? No... Speed of combat is barely affected.

i think your getting hung up on a this 1-19 thing here thrudh...its not just 1-19, its slower for every class, every style. dont follow the release notes man, try it out. it is slower. the final portion of your attack sequence is painful to watch. then go play wow and see how similar the combat speed is. in wow they deal with lag by having fewer attacks with massive damage, and in turn MASSIVE hp for both the players and the mobs. this is where turbine is going. deny it all you want its the truth. we used to have crazy good combat; fast, responsive, active, and FUN. i can remember holding my breath back in the day because the combat was intense, you think in the new system anyone will have that response? over the last year its changed and slowed down some, but this nerf will kill it. then what do we have? wow in a dnd jacket.

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 08:57 PM
Swing and a miss.

Strike 1.

Alright. Then they fail I guess. Or you are simply better geared. They may just aswell be using aggro reducing items. They are perhaps not built for max DPS.

There are plenty of reasons, but babrs being a better DPS class than fighter is not one of them.
Your aggro observations are highly subjective, so even if they are true they mean very little.

We have every variable needed to make fair DPS comparisons on paper, if barbs were higher DPS than fighters you could easily prove it.

Gunga
06-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Alright. Then they fail I guess. Or you are simply better geared. They may just aswell be using aggro reducing items. They are perhaps not built for max DPS.

There are plenty of reasons, but babrs being a better DPS class than fighter is not one of them.
Your aggro observations are highly subjective, so even if they are true they mean very little.

We have every variable needed to make fair DPS comparisons on paper, if barbs were higher DPS than fighters you could easily prove it.

Ball 1.

smatt
06-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Gunga! :d

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 09:17 PM
People will still believe barbs deals most DPS, and they will still be wrong.
Not much will change for barbs DPS relative to fighters.
Fighter > barb, before and after U5.

Neg rep for this, lol.
Having a hard time facing reality?

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:20 PM
i think your getting hung up on a this 1-19 thing here thrudh...its not just 1-19, its slower for every class, every style. dont follow the release notes man, try it out. it is slower. the final portion of your attack sequence is painful to watch. then go play wow and see how similar the combat speed is. in wow they deal with lag by having fewer attacks with massive damage, and in turn MASSIVE hp for both the players and the mobs. this is where turbine is going. deny it all you want its the truth. we used to have crazy good combat; fast, responsive, active, and FUN. i can remember holding my breath back in the day because the combat was intense, you think in the new system anyone will have that response? over the last year its changed and slowed down some, but this nerf will kill it. then what do we have? wow in a dnd jacket.

it's EXACTLY the same swing speed for levels 1-19... less numbers in the combat log, but the animations are just as fast... There is ZERO change in apparent speed for every fighter and barbarian levels 1-19... and since playing fighters and barbarians levels 1-19 in the current game is NOTHING like WOW, I have no idea where you guys are coming from...

I've been on Lamannia, combat is still exciting and fast-paced.

BlackSteel
06-09-2010, 09:22 PM
I typically try to get my attack bonus as high as possible as soon as possible so I can get away from using autoattack. We're not talking about at lvl 20, or even lvl 13 for madstone, or even haste. autoattack with any or none is just horrible with a two handed weapon. The thing I've liked most about the game for the past couple years has been that the combat was more like an action game than a MMO. If I wanted to put on autoattack and swing every 2-3 seconds I'd reinstall FFXI or WoW.

Yes I can still 'twitch', but to what end now. I might as well respec to TWF and watch some soft core while autoattacking any raid boss.

ninjaeli
06-09-2010, 09:23 PM
next patch maybe not so fun for a barb... but when those half-orcs come rolling i know im making a half orc barb greatclub user!!!!!

BlackSteel
06-09-2010, 09:24 PM
I've been on Lamannia, combat is still exciting and fast-paced.

moving interactive combat is fast paced. Autoattack is not. One is now hugely detrimental whereas the other is practically the same.

Sweyn
06-09-2010, 09:26 PM
it's EXACTLY the same swing speed for levels 1-19... less numbers in the combat log, but the animations are just as fast... There is ZERO change in apparent speed for every fighter and barbarian levels 1-19... and since playing fighters and barbarians levels 1-19 in the current game is NOTHING like WOW, I have no idea where you guys are coming from...

I've been on Lamannia, combat is still exciting and fast-paced.

I've heard your "1-19" argument now many times, in multiple threads... we get it

Gunga
06-09-2010, 09:28 PM
Could someone go over the 1-19 theory for me?

Long posts, no paragraphs or punctuation, please.

Thank you.

Chai
06-09-2010, 09:29 PM
An 18/2 barbarian/fighter can have awesome DPS with his greataxe (95% of the time), and still slip into AC mode (5% of the time - mid 70s AC - good enough for most raids on normal) with a high intimidate.

AC for normal raids is just gear... AC for elite raids is builds (Stalward Defender, etc.)

70s ac is getting hit on a 2 in the stuff I play. And a barbarian raged is going to lose a good portion of that. Hiding behind a shield and intimidating is good for 2 or 3 situations tops, and is weak everywhere else. Hate tanking is the way to go. Paladins can hate tank with minimal loss to AC and so can many fighters.

For much less investment you are more worth to a party to be high dps. My barbarian doesnt require more than the mass heals that get tossed in order to stay alive in most situations. Since I am not costing more mana, I might as well rage it up and DPS full boar.

A barbarian with "high intimidate" would need to invest in cha and gear at least to some extent. To get intim to the level a stalwart or paladin has it, they would have to start spending feats. Nay...It can be done yes, but at a loss to where they truely shine.

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 09:29 PM
I typically try to get my attack bonus as high as possible as soon as possible so I can get away from using autoattack. We're not talking about at lvl 20, or even lvl 13 for madstone, or even haste. autoattack with any or none is just horrible with a two handed weapon. The thing I've liked most about the game for the past couple years has been that the combat was more like an action game than a MMO. If I wanted to put on autoattack and swing every 2-3 seconds I'd reinstall FFXI or WoW.

Yes I can still 'twitch', but to what end now. I might as well respec to TWF and watch some soft core while autoattacking any raid boss.

TWF combat is FAR from wow combat. It's not like the only unique and interesting part of DDOs combat was the twitch exploit...
I find it redicolous that people keep saying that.

Overreact much?

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:29 PM
moving interactive combat is fast paced. Autoattack is not. One is now hugely detrimental whereas the other is practically the same.

who the hell uses auto-attack? The only time auto-attack works is against a few raid bosses...

If you're not moving most of the time in this game, you're doing it wrong.

Chai
06-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Neg rep for this, lol.
Having a hard time facing reality?

Im guessing its because we dont play in a vacuum, like all the DPS spreadsheet pushers think we do. I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day. I also dont hand out neg rep to people I merely disagree with, so, wasnt me.

Chai
06-09-2010, 09:33 PM
who the hell uses auto-attack? The only time auto-attack works is against a few raid bosses...

If you're not moving most of the time in this game, you're doing it wrong.

And this, above all else, is why THF needed to be left alone.

Ukenburger
06-09-2010, 09:35 PM
If I wanted to put on autoattack and swing every 2-3 seconds I'd reinstall FFXI or WoW.

Even in the lower levels you are still netting a two-handed swing every 0.75 seconds or so for DDO, so I'd say it is still a fair bit faster than the competition (and you get the ability to freely swing when you want as a bonus).


Yes I can still 'twitch', but to what end now.

If one truly enjoys the speed of combat for their fun then they will twitch because it is fun, not because it is the most efficient or effective way to utilize a two-handed weapon for most given situations.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:38 PM
70s ac is getting hit on a 2 in the stuff I play. And a barbarian raged is going to lose a good portion of that. Hiding behind a shield and intimidating is good for 2 or 3 situations tops, and is weak everywhere else. Hate tanking is the way to go. Paladins can hate tank with minimal loss to AC and so can many fighters.

For much less investment you are more worth to a party to be high dps. My barbarian doesnt require more than the mass heals that get tossed in order to stay alive in most situations. Since I am not costing more mana, I might as well rage it up and DPS full boar.

A barbarian with "high intimidate" would need to invest in cha and gear at least to some extent. To get intim to the level a stalwart or paladin has it, they would have to start spending feats. Nay...It can be done yes, but at a loss to where they truely shine.

I don't run routinely run epic or elite raids.... All I'm saying is that it's not that hard to get your intimidate or AC up to decent level for normal and hard raids, even on a barbarian... I agree that it's only useful in a very few places... 95% of the time, I'm raging and pure DPS, but there a few places where AC works. My barbarian/fighter can intimidate Sulu, the Pit Fiend, and even the Hound (sometimes)... Uncanny Dodge can get your AC pretty high with a Tower Shield.

Intimidate just takes maxing out the ranks, a +15 item, GH and a few items to switch to when in that rare "intimidate the boss" mode (6 CHA Shroud item, +6 CHA item).

I highly recommend all barbarians max out intimidate... very easy to intimidate trash, and it helps the spell-casters a lot... a AOE debuff that lowers to-hit and saves by 2 with NO save?? I can't believe more barbarians don't use intimidate.

badbob117
06-09-2010, 09:39 PM
That really bites. This is first post i read about barbs getting nerfed this much. The epic sos is one thing but a attack speed decrease is not cool. I thought they were supposed to fix the glancing blow problem not mess it up even more?

Idk. I currently gave my barb a bit of a rest and have been playing my FvS. but if indeed come the new update he is really as gimpy as the rumors are saying, idk what i will do? Buncha new games come out this fall.....

We are the big dumb heavy hitters. We are a burden to healers. We have no ac, we take damage off ourselves. Only thing we got going for us is big crits and lots of hp. We were never that fast to begin with.

/Signed 3X

BlackSteel
06-09-2010, 09:39 PM
who the hell uses auto-attack? The only time auto-attack works is against a few raid bosses...

If you're not moving most of the time in this game, you're doing it wrong.


TWF combat is FAR from wow combat. It's not like the only unique and interesting part of DDOs combat was the twitch exploit...
I find it redicolous that people keep saying that.


gotta say, never had a TWF character so cant comment. But the only thing TWF loses while moving is an attack bonus, THF is losing up to 15% on top of the -4 attack for moving for an interactive game thats just wrong. Would it make sense for TWF to only get mainhand attacks while moving?

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:39 PM
And this, above all else, is why THF needed to be left alone.


I agree that glancing blows should not have been changed... I guess changing the animations to be equal for all swings was just too much work though... :(

MeliCat
06-09-2010, 09:40 PM
[QUOTE=Thrudh;3027755]who the hell uses auto-attack? QUOTE]

Shroud. Pt 1. While making coffee to keep myself awake.



This is sad Hydro. :( I hadn't actually completely got the hang of twitching yet but it has been fun to try. But now why bother? :( And I love those big numbers. SO HUGE. Really v different from my pure TWF fighter. Kinda want to download Lam to look for myself - but again why bother if it's set in stone and going to be depressing anyway. Thanks for the warning I guess. Won't be such a shock when it hits.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:43 PM
I've heard your "1-19" argument now many times, in multiple threads... we get it


If you get it, quit comparing the game after Update 5 to WOW... 1-19 combat isn't as slow or boring as WOW, it's still quite fast...

And if you don't like the 1-19 comparison, then I'll use rogues as an example... Rogues in the live game get NO 10% speed boost, even at 20... So does everyone who plays a 20th level rogue on the live servers right now feel like they're playing WOW? Feel like they're swinging in molasses? Does combat suck for all rogues today?

If you want to devs to listen to you, you have to stop exaggerating the impact of nerfs...

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 09:44 PM
Im guessing its because we dont play in a vacuum, like all the DPS spreadsheet pushers think we do. I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day. I also dont hand out neg rep to people I merely disagree with, so, wasnt me.

You seem to lack basic understanding of DPS comparison sheets.
Can you please explain to me what role player skill has in comparing DPS between two classes?

Your skill is more important than your build, but how is that relevant?

"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day." So many words with so little meaning...

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:44 PM
TWF combat is FAR from wow combat. It's not like the only unique and interesting part of DDOs combat was the twitch exploit...
I find it redicolous that people keep saying that.

Overreact much?

Exactly.

Chai
06-09-2010, 09:45 PM
it's EXACTLY the same swing speed for levels 1-19... less numbers in the combat log, but the animations are just as fast... There is ZERO change in apparent speed for every fighter and barbarian levels 1-19... and since playing fighters and barbarians levels 1-19 in the current game is NOTHING like WOW, I have no idea where you guys are coming from...

I've been on Lamannia, combat is still exciting and fast-paced.

Faster swings the higher your BAB gets....

And people who compare this game to WOW even after update 5 are exagerating. I wrote macro scripts that did my attacking and my healbotting in WOW lol. We can talk about WoW once we are at that level.

This level of exageration occurs before each and every update that has a major change. WoP was apparently a game ending nerf. Alot of people threatened to quit because their 8 str 40 dex ranger had to be re-rolled. F2P was apparently a game ending marketing strat. People threatened to quit if they had to teach all the WoW crossovers how to play. Spaz attack nerf was apparently a game ender, as was taking firewall scrolls off the market.

The game is still here.

Most of the people who threatened to leave are still here. Some of them even created multiple threads about leaving in the past. They cool their jets and return. The few who dont hopefully found something meaningful to occupy their time.

Ukenburger
06-09-2010, 09:47 PM
I agree that glancing blows should not have been changed... I guess changing the animations to be equal for all swings was just too much work though...

Look close enough and you will see that only the base speeds were normalized. A Quarterstaff user under Haste/Haste Boost/Madstone Rage/etc. will swing slightly faster than a Greatsword user with the same hasting effects (by roughly 2 swings per minute, amount depending on the percentage of haste). The old animation issues still crop up in their own little ways.

oweieie
06-09-2010, 09:50 PM
And the barb cap haste boost is so noticeable no one even noticed it for how long?

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 09:54 PM
gotta say, never had a TWF character so cant comment. But the only thing TWF loses while moving is an attack bonus, THF is losing up to 15% on top of the -4 attack for moving for an interactive game thats just wrong. Would it make sense for TWF to only get mainhand attacks while moving?

On the other hand THF has the ability to damage multiple mobs...

Also consider that the highest non- SA dependant DPS in U5 will be a twitching THF fighter. It would not be balanced at all if twitch wasn't nerfed.
Noteworthy is that a TWF fighter will need to spend 5 feats more feats and get 17 dex, and will still not be able to keep up, moving or not.

Chai
06-09-2010, 09:56 PM
You seem to lack basic understanding of DPS comparison sheets.
Can you please explain to me what role player skill has in comparing DPS between two classes?

Your skill is more important than your build, but how is that relevant?

"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day." So many words with so little meaning...

You have to claim that the person who doesnt agree with you doesnt understand. I see this type of statement tossed around alot on the forums. It is the calling card of those who cannot quantify their viewpoint and feel offended that they are being disagreed with. I dont banter semantics. I test results and gain actual tangible information. Absolutims can be proven incorrect with one mere fact. Go ahead and show me your DPS comparison and I will shoot it down by changing the situation.

I dont lack the understanding of DPS spreadsheets. I just dont use them to make absolute statements like fighter > barb. Again, we dont play in a vacuum. If we did, people who come plowing into threads with their glen beck DPS blackboards and make statements, that might actually carry some weight.

I have a true understanding of the situational nature of the game we play. I prefer actual tests, and tangible results, over vacuum calcs.

"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day."

That is one sentence with a few words in it, yet the picture it paints speaks volumes, as does the fact that you feel it has little meaning.

Gunga
06-09-2010, 09:58 PM
"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day."

That is one sentence with a few words in it, yet the picture it paints speaks volumes, as does the fact that you feel it has little meaning.

Meh.

I don't think that sentence is too good either.

I give it a 3 out of 10.

Thrudh
06-09-2010, 09:59 PM
And the barb cap haste boost is so noticeable no one even noticed it for how long?

heh good point.

ghale
06-09-2010, 10:04 PM
"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day."

That is one sentence with a few words in it, yet the picture it paints speaks volumes, as does the fact that you feel it has little meaning.

I think you fail to realize that this statement is a duh, captain obvious statement that no real attention needs to be paid to it, where it does have no meaning. Why you keep repeating as if it is some statement of genius is beyond me :(.

Chai
06-09-2010, 10:11 PM
I think you fail to realize that this statement is a duh, captain obvious statement that no real attention needs to be paid to it, where it does have no meaning. Why you keep repeating as if it is some statement of genius is beyond me :(.

Because people keep repeating their absolutist nonsense like its the laws of physics, and waving their DPS calcs in our faces with the same fanaticism that a zealot waves the bible.

There are also way too many "my class is getting nerfed out of existance" threads. I think people are more mad about the fact that they dont know what the real bees knees build is going to be, or how many LRs its going to take to get there.

Welcome to the gray area. Please, stay a while.

Aaxeyu
06-09-2010, 10:17 PM
You have to claim that the person who doesnt agree with you doesnt understand. I see this type of statement tossed around alot on the forums. It is the calling card of those who cannot quantify their viewpoint and feel offended that they are being disagreed with. I dont banter semantics. I test results and gain actual tangible information. Absolutims can be proven incorrect with one mere fact. Go ahead and show me your DPS comparison and I will shoot it down by changing the situation.

I dont lack the understanding of DPS spreadsheets. I just dont use them to make absolute statements like fighter > barb. Again, we dont play in a vacuum. If we did, people who come plowing into threads with their glen beck DPS blackboards and make statements, that might actually carry some weight.

I have a true understanding of the situational nature of the game we play. I prefer actual tests, and tangible results, over vacuum calcs.

"I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day."

That is one sentence with a few words in it, yet the picture it paints speaks volumes, as does the fact that you feel it has little meaning.

Showing that Barb > Fighter is one special kind of situation doesn't change the fact that overall fighter do deal more DPS than barbs.

If you really had a true understanding of the game, then the calcs would be all you needed for any DPS comparison. It's a tool you can use too compare DPS in any scenario, sometimes you just have to use your mind and not blindly trust the numbers. That is no secret.


A DPS spreadsheet is much more reliable for DPS comparison than random observation from the game. Numbers from a DPS comparison calc carries way more weight than subjective observations.


I'm not even sure what you mean by "quantity based class", and why is it that you compare player to class?
Obviously a good player with a bad build can achive alot more than a bad player with a good build.
But a the same good player can achive even more if he have a good build.

DaggomaticDwarf
06-09-2010, 10:21 PM
But I was never a number cruncher nor a twitcher ( too many rum and cokes ) :) but I dont think U5 will kill my barb it will just take time to re-adjust my play still, I mean "Drunken Play Style". But Turbine plz don't kid us with the whole "We wanted ur input on this very important matter" BS. Many of us work for companies that have those bosses that call a meeting together to discuss changes but in the end the boss already made up his mind. Trying to make us feel like we are part of the family HaH more like the red headed step-son of a fatherless goat.

I want to know if these nerfs dont fix the problems will the old way be re-introduced back into the game??

Chai
06-09-2010, 11:15 PM
Showing that Barb > Fighter is one special kind of situation doesn't change the fact that overall fighter do deal more DPS than barbs.

If you really had a true understanding of the game, then the calcs would be all you needed for any DPS comparison. It's a tool you can use too compare DPS in any scenario, sometimes you just have to use your mind and not blindly trust the numbers. That is no secret.


A DPS spreadsheet is much more reliable for DPS comparison than random observation from the game. Numbers from a DPS comparison calc carries way more weight than subjective observations.


I'm not even sure what you mean by "quantity based class", and why is it that you compare player to class?
Obviously a good player with a bad build can achive alot more than a bad player with a good build.
But a the same good player can achive even more if he have a good build.

You cant see how using calcs to prove blanket statements is incorrect in a purely situational game like DDO? And you keep railing on my for not having an understanding of how this all works.

Here you go with the "true understanding" thing again. I dont agree with absolutist logic. This does not mean I dont understand it. In fact, I understand it better than most absolutists do. I am the CB who understands the WR position better than the WR does. When the pick six occurrs, all the absolutists can do is cry foul and wave their calcs around like they matter.

Vacuum calcs are a theoretician's tool. Actual results are what a true scientist desires. Quantification based on calculation and theory alone can be proven by one simple fact to be incorrect.

Nobody is talking about subjective observations. I am talking about reviewing a combat log after a situational in game test and simple addition. Weighing these numbers to a calc based on the same situation will show you how incorrect and off vacuum calcs really are. Most people will not do this however. Because this would show them the error of their ways, and negate being able to plow into a thread with blanket statements about one class always being on top for DPS. I have done both and weighed one against the other more than 50 times previewing this update alone. Have you?

Jay203
06-09-2010, 11:24 PM
see what i mean about greensteel breaks the game now? :D:D:D:D:D

Gunga
06-09-2010, 11:30 PM
Have you?

Good cheese in Wisconsin.

Yessir.

6PEBHO
06-10-2010, 03:03 AM
baaaw earlier i was the only dps i the game now ooother classes do dps baaaw :D

Shade
06-10-2010, 05:07 AM
I see no reason to play any melee class if this mess hits live. None are any fun to play after all the attack speed nerfs, let alone the other 50 nerfs.

For any other classes who thinkt here "proxy-buffed" by a nerf to other classes. Your fooling yourself, your class is next in line to be nerfed with this style of update.

Aaxeyu
06-10-2010, 06:38 AM
You cant see how using calcs to prove blanket statements is incorrect in a purely situational game like DDO? And you keep railing on my for not having an understanding of how this all works. 1
Here you go with the "true understanding" thing again. I dont agree with absolutist logic. This does not mean I dont understand it. In fact, I understand it better than most absolutists do. I am the CB who understands the WR position better than the WR does. When the pick six occurrs, all the absolutists can do is cry foul and wave their calcs around like they matter.

You keep telling us how you know so much and understand everything. But besides that all you say is "You are wrong because I say so".


Vacuum calcs are a theoretician's tool. Actual results are what a true scientist desires. Quantification based on calculation and theory alone can be proven by one simple fact to be incorrect.

"Vacuum calcs" as you call them are more than enough to do accurate DPS comparisons. What is this fact that can prove them to be so wrong?


Nobody is talking about subjective observations. I am talking about reviewing a combat log after a situational in game test and simple addition. Weighing these numbers to a calc based on the same situation will show you how incorrect and off vacuum calcs really are. Most people will not do this however. Because this would show them the error of their ways, and negate being able to plow into a thread with blanket statements about one class always being on top for DPS. I have done both and weighed one against the other more than 50 times previewing this update alone. Have you?

You are wrong. If you compare the logs of a barb and fighter that is played by the same player on the same encounter you'll see that it shows exactly what the calc says, fighters deal more DPS than barbs.
The reason I don't do that it's because it's timeconsuming and very unneccesary. The calcs give me all info I need to know.

If you have done it 50 times, please post some actual data instead of just empty words.

Chai
06-10-2010, 07:53 AM
You keep telling us how you know so much and understand everything. But besides that all you say is "You are wrong because I say so".

No, catually what I am saying is you refuse to look at the big picture by digesting both sides - the calcs AND the actual results. If you had done both you would see how far the calcs are actually off. Again, you are trying to prove reality with a theoretician's tool and refusing to see actual results compiled.

I dont care whose right or wrong. I care about accuracy in the field, and do not rely on a spreadsheet alone to give me my factual information.


"Vacuum calcs" as you call them are more than enough to do accurate DPS comparisons. What is this fact that can prove them to be so wrong?

One can prove absolute statements made based on calcs alone to be incorrect by changing the situation. Since this game we play is a purely situational game, it seems more than fitting to not try to justify absolute statements based on numbers calculated in a vacuum.


You are wrong. If you compare the logs of a barb and fighter that is played by the same player on the same encounter you'll see that it shows exactly what the calc says, fighters deal more DPS than barbs.
The reason I don't do that it's because it's timeconsuming and very unneccesary. The calcs give me all info I need to know.

Excuses do not breed good science. You want real information, you go get it in the field. Those who can, do. Those who cannot do, teach. Those who cannot teach, work for the government.

The real reason you wont do this is because you understand it has a posibility to change your view, and show you how distorted calcs are -vs- gathering data in the field. It would negate all absolutist statements one could possibly make in the future.

And since comparing the facts gathered in both situations are so varied, this type of variation drives absolutists flippin crazy, because they feel that only one set of facts can be right, and do not understand which set it is. This is similar to how crazy their rants are now, because they are no longer in their comfort zone with regards to which build is best. This is an uncomfortable feeling for the absolute mindset, because it does not know what high pedistal to gravitate to in order to look down on others from.


If you have done it 50 times, please post some actual data instead of just empty words.

An ultimatum? Here again lies your error in interpreting my words. I dont care about being right or wrong in an absolute sense as you do. I care about the actual results of testing to find out the real facts instead of barfing up a spreadsheet or two and then ranting about how gloom and doom it is going to be if i continue to try to play my class after the update hits.


You are wrong. If you compare the logs of a barb and fighter that is played by the same player on the same encounter you'll see that it shows exactly what the calc says, fighters deal more DPS than barbs.

Here we go again with the whole "you are wrong" thing... I have already explained what my viewpoints on that statement are, but sometimes a picture is better.

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~kmg357/pictures/xkcd2/xkcd22.png

smatt
06-10-2010, 09:42 AM
No, catually what I am saying is you refuse to look at the big picture by digesting both sides - the calcs AND the actual results. If you had done both you would see how far the calcs are actually off. Again, you are trying to prove reality with a theoretician's tool and refusing to see actual results compiled.

I dont care whose right or wrong. I care about accuracy in the field, and do not rely on a spreadsheet alone to give me my factual information.



One can prove absolute statements made based on calcs alone to be incorrect by changing the situation. Since this game we play is a purely situational game, it seems more than fitting to not try to justify absolute statements based on numbers calculated in a vacuum.



Excuses do not breed good science. You want real information, you go get it in the field. Those who can, do. Those who cannot do, teach. Those who cannot teach, work for the government.

The real reason you wont do this is because you understand it has a posibility to change your view, and show you how distorted calcs are -vs- gathering data in the field. It would negate all absolutist statements one could possibly make in the future.

And since comparing the facts gathered in both situations are so varied, this type of variation drives absolutists flippin crazy, because they feel that only one set of facts can be right, and do not understand which set it is. This is similar to how crazy their rants are now, because they are no longer in their comfort zone with regards to which build is best. This is an uncomfortable feeling for the absolute mindset, because it does not know what high pedistal to gravitate to in order to look down on others from.



An ultimatum? Here again lies your error in interpreting my words. I dont care about being right or wrong in an absolute sense as you do. I care about the actual results of testing to find out the real facts instead of barfing up a spreadsheet or two and then ranting about how gloom and doom it is going to be if i continue to try to play my class after the update hits.



Here we go again with the whole "you are wrong" thing... I have already explained what my viewpoints on that statement are, but sometimes a picture is better.

http://homepages.nyu.edu/%7Ekmg357/pictures/xkcd2/xkcd22.png


What aload of know it all ****....

Gunga
06-10-2010, 09:49 AM
What aload of know it all ****....

I concur.

Slippery side-stepper, he is.

He must have missed the "Where's the beef?" and "Show me the money!" campaigns.

Aaxeyu
06-10-2010, 09:57 AM
No, catually what I am saying is you refuse to look at the big picture by digesting both sides - the calcs AND the actual results. If you had done both you would see how far the calcs are actually off. Again, you are trying to prove reality with a theoretician's tool and refusing to see actual results compiled.

I dont care whose right or wrong. I care about accuracy in the field, and do not rely on a spreadsheet alone to give me my factual information.

I don't think I would find the calcs to be far off, but I guess it's another thing that is true because you say it is?

Taking the results from the calc and combining them with the understanding of the gameplay is all you need.
For example, if a fighter damage than a barb in a punchbag situation, in what situations does the barb deal higher DPS, and how common are those situatons?
Those questions are not exactly hard to answer, because we have all the variables that matters for a comparison.



One can prove absolute statements made based on calcs alone to be incorrect by changing the situation. Since this game we play is a purely situational game, it seems more than fitting to not try to justify absolute statements based on numbers calculated in a vacuum.

That is were you show that you fail to understand how to use the calcs as a tool. Just because the cals are not 100% accurate in every single situation doesn't mean that they are wrong as soon as you change the situation.

If someone like me says that fighters deal higher DPS than barbs they don't mean "that in every single situation any fighter will out dps any barb" but "in the current endgame fighters have a higher DPS potential than barbs most of the time"

Again, if the calcs are so wrong, you could easily prove it.


Excuses do not breed good science. You want real information, you go get it in the field. Those who can, do. Those who cannot do, teach. Those who cannot teach, work for the government.

I think you overestimate the complexity of DDOs combat...


The real reason you wont do this is because you understand it has a posibility to change your view, and show you how distorted calcs are -vs- gathering data in the field. It would negate all absolutist statements one could possibly make in the future.
HAHA, nice one.
You don't know anything about me, and I can tell you that you are completely wrong. If I was shown that the calcs were actually far off and the results had no meaning, I would stop using them in a heartbeat.



And since comparing the facts gathered in both situations are so varied, this type of variation drives absolutists flippin crazy, because they feel that only one set of facts can be right, and do not understand which set it is. This is similar to how crazy their rants are now, because they are no longer in their comfort zone with regards to which build is best. This is an uncomfortable feeling for the absolute mindset, because it does not know what high pedistal to gravitate to in order to look down on others from.

You should really drop your "absolutists" BS. You take a bunch of people you know nothing about, and bunch them up in the same category and pretend you know everything about them. But let me tell you this, you are wrong.
Your attempt of a psycological assessment fails.


An ultimatum? Here again lies your error in interpreting my words. I dont care about being right or wrong in an absolute sense as you do. I care about the actual results of testing to find out the real facts instead of barfing up a spreadsheet or two and then ranting about how gloom and doom it is going to be if i continue to try to play my class after the update hits.

You don't care about being right or wrong, becasue you are so certain that you are right. You are the absolutist here. If test results from ingame differ SO MUCH from the calcs, you can easily prove that.

Are you suggesting that I am "ranting about how gloom and doom it is going to be"? You could not be more wrong. Even though most of my toons will be nerfed, I like the changes in U5.


You keep saying how bad spreadsheets are, but you can't even back the claim up with anything. No one is interested in your failsauce assumptions of the so called "absolutists". It's getting very old now.
"Put up or shut up" is kinda fitting here.

If you don't attempt to back your statements up with some hard solid numbers from your extensive ingame test I won't bother having this discussion anymore.
You have shown that you can talk, but now you have to show us that you are not just another clueless anti-DPS calc ranter.

Gunga
06-10-2010, 10:02 AM
Chai gets owned.

That may have been the most polite ass whupin' I've ever seen.

+1.

<Barbs are still better.>

grodon9999
06-10-2010, 10:03 AM
That may have been the most polite ass whupin' I've ever seen.

+1.

Agreed.

Chai
06-10-2010, 10:09 AM
I don't think I would find the calcs to be far off, but I guess it's another thing that is true because you say it is?

Taking the results from the calc and combining them with the understanding of the gameplay is all you need.
For example, if a fighter damage than a barb in a punchbag situation, in what situations does the barb deal higher DPS, and how common are those situatons?
Those questions are not exactly hard to answer, because we have all the variables that matters for a comparison.

Show me this barb -vs- fighter calc and I will show you. I want a list of feats for each toon as well, so there will be no backpedaling.

.

Show me this barb -vs- fighter calc you are so obsessed about and I will show you. I want a list of feats for each toon as well, so there will be no backpedaling.

P.S. I wont respond to this banter again until I see the calc posted with the feat list. I have already stated everything I need to in this matter. Neither one of us is convincing anyone who doesnt not already agree with our stances on the issue.

Chai
06-10-2010, 10:13 AM
That may have been the most polite ass whupin' I've ever seen.

+1.

<Barbs are still better.>

Hardly what Id call an ass whupin. Absolutism < Reality. Vacuum calcs < data collected in the field.

The only reason to do calcs in any scientific evaluation is to form a theory based on a hypothesis. That then gets tested in the field repeatedly to prove or disprove the postulate > hypothesis > theory. Stopping at the calc level is absurd.

Pfft, whatevs, youre just here with popcorn watching.

http://www.hoseheadforums.com/images/uploadedimages/Forums/media/Raceway%20Video/costanzaPopcorn.gif

Cyr
06-10-2010, 10:19 AM
Vacuum calcs < data collected in the field.


link please to the post showing the data you collected from the field.

Chai
06-10-2010, 10:26 AM
link please to the post showing the data you collected from the field.

Ill get right on that, as soon as I see the link that proves that fighters always out barbs in DPS.

grodon9999
06-10-2010, 10:28 AM
Ill get right on that, as soon as I see the link that proves that fighters always out barbs in DPS.

Never once did he says that fighters ALWAYS out-DPS barbs. He's talking about a situation where both are maxed with equal gear.

Chai
06-10-2010, 10:37 AM
Never once did he says that fighters ALWAYS out-DPS barbs. He's talking about a situation where both are maxed with equal gear.

a situation that favors the fighters specialization of course. The minute they wander from that you see where this is going to go....

Semantics have already been bantered a few pages ago on this point.

The fact is I have never stated barbs out fighters either, and yet I have been told I am wrong quite a few times.

What I did state is when you collect actual data, you see how far off the calcs are, simply because we dont play in a vacuum.

Its just last wording at this point unless I see these calcs people are so obsessed over complete with feat list.

sigtrent
06-10-2010, 10:37 AM
Barbarian, as a class, is only really loosing their bugged capstone bonus.

Twitch THF barbarian as a build/playstyle is getting hit pretty hard.

All said and done I don't agree with dropping glancing blows while moving since TWF is getting off hand attacks while moving. Remove both and it makes much more sense balance wise.

The attack speed nerfs are across the board pretty much. And the reason is clear... the rate of attack we had was over taxing the game infrastructure, not only does that create lag, but it leaves no room for growth. Of course fast=fun in many respects so its a bummer they have to slow things down. But its clear in most situations that all the ramping in attack speed causes hard core DPS lag.

Barbarian capstone should give you more than +2 str. That is definitely complaint worthy. They should probably give you double strike, although perhaps only 5% so its not just plain better than the fighter capstone. At lower levels +2 str is amazing, at 20 its just kind of a drop in the bucket.

ESOS is not a barbarian only weapon btw. THF builds of all classes are impacted by that. Its definitely a bummer for folks that have the sword. We all knew it was way over the top, but if you have one... thats a good thing. But keep in mind, the number of people that actually have one of those is likely a very small percentage of the player base. Claiming its some kind of class feature just doesn't make sense from a design perspective.

I'm of mixed feelings on twitch. The D&D game is supposed to be set up so you do better damage while not moving rather than better damage while you are moving. And its something of an exploit with the way it re-sets the animation sequence. On the other hand if a player goes to the trouble to learn and master it, why not reward them a little? And it was hardly breaking the game in any way I could see.

Missing_Minds
06-10-2010, 10:39 AM
Play a halfling... fear the rage squeek. That is why you play a barb.

Gunga
06-10-2010, 10:42 AM
Stopping at the calc level is absurd.

No. Using satire as proof for a math problem is absurd.

This is a game made more for analyzing than pontificating.

BTW, aren't you asking yourself why no one else in this thread is asking aaxeyu for his calcs? Maybe you should do a little more research, Data-Collection Absolute-Reality Man.

grodon9999
06-10-2010, 10:43 AM
What I did state is when you collect actual data, you see how far off the calcs are, simply because we dont play in a vacuum.


I've found that to be the nonsense - how hard I hit on the spreadsheet is how hard I hit in-game. I know what my average hit/crit will be depending on what buffs are applied and the numbers I see in-game match what I see in Excel. If you see a discrepancy you Excel work is faulty.

There are variables in combat, how many hits can you get in X amount of time, etc . . . but that can be guestimated with decent accuracy.

Cyr
06-10-2010, 10:43 AM
Ill get right on that, as soon as I see the link that proves that fighters always out barbs in DPS.

You made a statement about data collected in the field being better. I wanted to see this data. Link to any data you have collected in the field to disprove a dps calculation.

It should be easy I know I have corrected many dps calculations myself on the forums (or had my own corrected). It's easy to make mistakes and typos after all.

Garth_of_Sarlona
06-10-2010, 10:46 AM
The fact is I have never stated barbs out fighters either, and yet I have been told I am wrong quite a few times.


But you did come in and say that everyone else was wrong with their calculations, with nothing other than a 'hunch' to back it up.


What I did state is when you collect actual data, you see how far off the calcs are, simply because we dont play in a vacuum.


Unfortunately this is not possible, given the devs do not allow us to export our combat log to a text file (unlike LOTRO). Until then, using dps calculations and excel spreadsheets is the best way to calculate dps.

Garth

Khanyth
06-10-2010, 10:46 AM
To quote the quote that GnR used in their cover of Knockin' on Heaven's Door:
First we create a vacuum.
Then we fill that vacuum.

I give credit to the people who play this game enough that a new style will be created/adapted. Life will go on. People will adapt and find a new way to do things, a new combo of skills/eq/player style to make barbs.

To quote RHCP:
Destruction leads to a very rough road, but it also breeds creation.


People will still play barbs, whether they attack more or less, hit more or less, damage more or less. Will they be the same? No. Will they still be playable. Yes. Someone will adapt or create a new build that will drive the DDO world nuts (in a good or bad way) and life will go on.

Aaxeyu
06-10-2010, 10:53 AM
Vacuum calcs < data collected in the field.

Tthat doesn't mean that calcs are meaningless. They are sufficient enough to make accurate comparisons.
Collecting the data ingame under controlled circumstances can ofcourse be even more accurate, but it's harder, takes more time, much more can go wrong and the results will most likely not be any different from the calc.

Here's some calcs for you: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=227377


What I did state is when you collect actually data, you see how far off the calcs are, simply because we dont play in a vacuum.

Yes, you keep saying that. But you refuse to show us even an example.

Chai
06-10-2010, 10:57 AM
But you did come in and say that everyone else was wrong with their calculations, with nothing other than a 'hunch' to back it up.



Unfortunately this is not possible, given the devs do not allow us to export our combat log to a text file (unlike LOTRO). Until then, using dps calculations and excel spreadsheets is the best way to calculate dps.

Garth

No, I came in here and said that the calcs are the first part of the scientific process, but we dont play in a vacuum so they cant be used to prove absolutist statements in all situations. Stopping at calcs and not bothering to gether real data does not a real evaluation of the situation make. And the "hunch" I used to back it up is actually playing on lammania and doing static tests between my toons on lammania and the same toons on live. When I see the calc and the test data, they are off by enough per situation and off different ways in different situations. This doesnt surprise me because I already have a clear understanding of the situational nature of the game we play to have anticipated this type of outcome.

In other news, halfling absolutist barbarians everywhere are fuming that they are being outed by fighters. What ever will they do?

http://i47.tinypic.com/zw1gjo.gif

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 11:00 AM
No. Using satire as proof for a math problem is absurd.

That's just a lie, Gunga. You lying liar.

Think about it this way. Everyone knows that my barbarian-splashed favored soul is going to fly past the rest of the party. That means that situationally, I'm going to get to monsters way faster. Which means that I'm doing like a thousand times more DPS than the slowpoke pure fighter.

What the calculator won't tell you:
Me > Monks > Barbarians > Fighters

Chai is so right!!

P.S. - What is so wrong about calculating DPS? DDO is transparent enough that it's relatively easy to come up with the basics, with occasional disputes for fields like ki strikes, numbers of monsters, or frequency of sneak attacks.

Personally, I don't like the assumptions some people throw in when they make their numbers, so I do my own. It has informed the way I make builds and improved the outcomes significantly. I know what gear is realistic for me.

The #1 thing I have learned is that gear frequently matters more than builds. The reason there will always be skepticism of the "so-and-so pulled aggro" is that most barbarians or fighters or whoever else decides they are king of DPS does not go to the extra lengths to make themselves better. Most folks think that because they copied Axer and have a level 20 barbarian, that they are just as good without Shintao set, Knost's set, bloodstone litany marilith chain sneak attack bonuses proper enhancements different weapons epic equipment dps focused greensteel crafting etc. etc.

There are few truly epic characters out there -- none of mine is close to the level they could be -- and there is an enormous range of baseline DPS values for every class, even within PrEs. Because we're all going to be approaching it differently.

We didn't need myddo to know that the majority of players simply do not prioritize these items because they feel the axe icon is enough. We'll grind out the epic SoS as a status item, but not the ravager set or epic Xuum. We'll start forum wars over a +3 STR tome, but skip bloodstone. For some, it is not having the wealth to craft. Yet you will see some of the richest players in DDO skip a bloodstone or not bother to craft lightning weapons because they just don't feel it matters; they are as blinded by class stereotyping as the pages of threads about how clerics are healbots and don't need con.

Combine that with different players' zeal for combat (let's face it, when I forget to hit kensei boost because I'm talking on the phone, I'm not going to pull aggro), and that's what makes DDO dynamic. Chai is right about that. But he is wrong about the implications of being informed.

Good builds with solid foundations have the ability to make that gear and feats shine in fun ways. That's why DPS calculations matter. They have taught me how to make concrete improvements across the board, and informed me that more than ever, it's really not about which forum ego can prove their build is #1 at one particular moment. Not everyone is going to be number 1. But we can make decisions based on informed opinions.

Chai
06-10-2010, 11:06 AM
P.S. - What is so wrong about calculating DPS? DDO is transparent enough that it's relatively easy to come up with the basics, with occasional disputes for fields like ki strikes, numbers of monsters, or frequency of sneak attacks.

.

I dont think its wrong to calc DPS. I think its wrong to stop there and use the results to make blanket statements. Somehow someone interpreted me saying this is being the poster boy for the anti DPS spreadsheet campaign, or something.

I think calcs are the first part of the process. Not the end all cure all proof that is needed.

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 11:10 AM
Im guessing its because we dont play in a vacuum, like all the DPS spreadsheet pushers think we do. I will take quality based players before quantity based classes any day.

Maybe this is where I got that idea.

Gunga
06-10-2010, 11:16 AM
That's just a lie, Gunga. You lying liar.

My pants are on fire for you.

Don't you Chai-talk me.

Cyr
06-10-2010, 11:20 AM
. And the "hunch" I used to back it up is actually playing on lammania and doing static tests between my toons on lammania and the same toons on live.

Okay link to this data then and it's analysis.

Absolute-Omniscience
06-10-2010, 11:26 AM
.

I like how you assume that Axeyue hasn't done any ingame testing at all. I'm pretty sure that he has hell of a lot more ingame experience in max dps situations than you do. It's just hunch, but I doubt that hunch is incorrect.

As the game is based on dice rolls, the numbers can vary a lot ingame, so to get accurate ingame results, not only would you have to read the combat log line by line for each maxout character, but you'd also have to do each situation over 100+ times to get accurate numbers.

Not only is maxing out all builds close to impossible, but the time alone to read each line in the combat logs and doing all the rince-repeats would take a long time - for just a couple of builds.

Back pre-mod 9 me and some friends made a close-to max DPS run at shroud, with our group we killed arraetrikos in 37 seconds, and my estimate with the calculator was very close to that, counting arraetrikos at 100k hp (part 4). So both me and Axeyeu have a lot of field experience in this matter, but we do not throw that around, as we don't have it as raw data, hence is very subjective and useless in dps comparissons.


TLDR: In order to get more accurate ingame results you have to spend more time than anyone would ever do, so until then Spreadsheets will be more accurate. All you have to do is adapt the numbers for the given situation, for example, if it is a punchbag boss, with 50% fort and 20 acid resistance, there is no unknown variable, there is nothing I repeat nothing inaccurate with a theoretical calc, unless there is a typo/error in the calculations, and if no such an error / typo can be found, then it should be qualified to be used as "proof".

I do not see the problem, and I really don't understand people who thinks that the DDO combat system is one large variable that's so freakin unpredictable that God himself would have problems with it.

Chai
06-10-2010, 11:28 AM
Okay link to this data then and it's analysis.

Youre asking the guy who doesnt crank out spreadsheets to prove a point, to crank out a spreadsheet to prove a point. This is laughable.

I am asking the person who champions the absolute use of spreadsheets over analysis in the field to show their spread sheet to prove their absolutist statement.

Also: Sounds like I will be the only one playing a barbarian after the update goes live. Nay. I think the hype will die down shortly after release and all the gloom and doom is proven false, which will of course happen after the majority of players experience the play and not after they took a gander at a spreadsheet....

This happens before and after each and every update where major changes are put in, so it doesnt surprise me that we are going through it all over again here.

Gunga
06-10-2010, 11:30 AM
Youre asking the guy who doesnt crank out spreadsheets to prove a point, to crank out a spreadsheet to prove a point. This is laughable.

I am asking the person who champions the absolute use of spreadsheets over analysis in the field to show their spread sheet to prove their absolutist statement.

Also: Sounds like I will be the only one playing a barbarian after the update goes live. Nay. I think the hype will die down shortly after release and all the gloom and doom is proven false, which will of course happen after the majority of players experience the play and not after they took a gander at a spreadsheet....

This happens before and after each and every update where major changes are put in, so it doesnt surprise me that we are going through it all over again here.


We're only going through your public education of DPS in this game.

We've all been through the rest of it numerous times.

We're not asking a guy who doesn't crank out spreadsheets for his spreadsheets; we're asking the guy who has done exhaustive "real-world" testing for the data that supports his position.

Cyr
06-10-2010, 11:44 AM
Youre asking the guy who doesnt crank out spreadsheets to prove a point, to crank out a spreadsheet to prove a point. This is laughable.


You either have data or you don't.

Is your position really that doing math is unreliable, but gathering data to back up your position is too hard and everyone should just take your word for it?

Absolute-Omniscience
06-10-2010, 11:46 AM
I think the hype will die down shortly after release and all the gloom and doom is proven false, which will of course happen after the majority of players experience the play and not after they took a gander at a spreadsheet....


There is no real alteration in the DPS numbers between U4 and U5, except that Sos fighter is a lot higher than they were, incomparisson to what they were before. Barbs are around the place where they used to be (in comparisson to other classes, not to their old DPS). It's just a nerf across the board, nothing real changes in the balance between classes, well except that some splits and specific abilities gets nerfed a lot.

Barbs have never been the top, people who do think that and now thinks that they're the bottom are poorly informed and I will not advocate that belief.

Chai
06-10-2010, 11:55 AM
I like how you assume that Axeyue hasn't done any ingame testing at all. I'm pretty sure that he has hell of a lot more ingame experience in max dps situations than you do. It's just hunch, but I doubt that hunch is incorrect.

No. No assumptions were made. Data was observed and used to show me that my toons will still hold their DPS weight after the patch in relation to everyone else after the patch.

P.S. I am not arguing with him, he is arguing with himself. I am merely sstating tried and true scientific method.


As the game is based on dice rolls, the numbers can vary a lot ingame, so to get accurate ingame results, not only would you have to read the combat log line by line for each maxout character, but you'd also have to do each situation over 100+ times to get accurate numbers.

Correct, welcome to the grind that is real scientific analysis. This is exactly why absolutism cannot be proven by calcs alone. Calcs are simply the first part of the process, and not the end all cure all.


Not only is maxing out all builds close to impossible, but the time alone to read each line in the combat logs and doing all the rince-repeats would take a long time - for just a couple of builds.

Correct. This again is why blanket statements cant be proven via simple calcs, when the real situational analysis is much more complicated. You are seeing the situational picture here, but voicing disagreement, when you are actually, through semantics, agreeing with me.


Back pre-mod 9 me and some friends made a max DPS run at shroud, with our group we killed arraetrikos in 37 seconds, and my estimate with the calculator was very close to that, counting arraetrikos at 100k hp (part 4).

Excellent. I dont see this every single time however, but many times it is close.


TLDR: In order to get more accurate ingame results you have to spend more time than anyone would ever do, so until then Spreadsheets will be more accurate. All you have to do is adapt the numbers for the given situation, for example, if it is a punchbag boss, with 50% fort and 20 acid resistance, there is no unknown variable, there is nothing I repeat nothing inaccurate with a theoretical calc, unless there is a typo/error in the calculations, and if no such an error / typo can be found, then it should be qualified to be used as "proof".

Specific facts can be construed through calcs, but entire all encompassing blanket statements cannot be proven by a sheet full of numbers, given the purely situational nature of the game we play. Simply not wanting to do the work, but continuing to want to be able to make those blanket statements, doesnt cut it. If real life scientists who are trying to quantify things that are more important than video game stats took this approach, we would all be still in the dark ages.


I do not see the problem, and I really don't understand people who thinks that the DDO combat system is one large variable that's so freakin unpredictable that God himself would have problems with it.

God himself has paper stats that most min maxers would crush in three rounds of combat. See what I mean? :D

Chai
06-10-2010, 11:57 AM
There is no real alteration in the DPS numbers between U4 and U5, except that Sos fighter is a lot higher than they were, incomparisson to what they were before. Barbs are around the place where they used to be (in comparisson to other classes, not to their old DPS). It's just a nerf across the board, nothing real changes in the balance between classes, well except that some splits and specific abilities gets nerfed a lot.

Barbs have never been the top, people who do think that and now thinks that they're the bottom are poorly informed and I will not advocate that belief.

Correct, but I have seen a few threads over the past week or so regarding certain classes becomming unplayable, with many people saying their class is getting hit the hardest.

Hydro
06-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Hate to help keep my own post off track but I looked at those DPS calculations and there is a lot that makes no sense. I posted over there with a question but I guess I will ask it over here also:

From the Fighter Calculations:

Critical Hits
8 Seeker from item
7 Critical threat range (How does a fighter have a 7 Critical Threat Range, 14-20 is 6...)
4 Critical multiplier
388 Base critical damage
1 Effects
0 <Element> Burst
0 <Element> Blast
0 Alignment Burst
0 Alignment Blast
0 Natural 20
64 Total seeker damage (How does a fighter have 64 seeker damage, seeker enhancements do not add damage..)
0 Critical Effects
453 Critical Total

Gunga
06-10-2010, 12:00 PM
Correct. This again is why blanket statements cant be proven via simple calcs, when the real situational analysis is much more complicated.

Did you enter a pie eating contest to prove that pi = C/d?

Gol
06-10-2010, 12:02 PM
P.S. I am not arguing with him, he is arguing with himself. I am merely sstating tried and true scientific method. Hypothesize, test, analysis, conclusion. Where are the numbers for your test results, again?

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:03 PM
Hate to help keep my own post off track but I looked at those DPS calculations and there is a lot that makes no sense. I posted over there with a question but I guess I will ask it over here also:

From the Fighter Calculations:

Critical Hits
8 Seeker from item
7 Critical threat range (How does a fighter have a 7 Critical Threat Range, 14-20 is 6...)
4 Critical multiplier
388 Base critical damage
1 Effects
0 <Element> Burst
0 <Element> Blast
0 Alignment Burst
0 Alignment Blast
0 Natural 20
64 Total seeker damage (How does a fighter have 64 seeker damage, seeker enhancements do not add damage..)
0 Critical Effects
453 Critical Total

There are 7 numbers. 14,15,16,17,18,19,20

As far as the seeker. I believe youre correct.

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:04 PM
Hypothesize, test, analysis, conclusion. Where are the numbers for your test results, again?

You are asking the guy who does not crank out spreadsheets to prove a point, to crank out a spreadsheet to prove a point.

/ducks.

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 12:06 PM
Hate to help keep my own post off track but I looked at those DPS calculations and there is a lot that makes no sense. I posted over there with a question but I guess I will ask it over here also:

From the Fighter Calculations:

Critical Hits
8 Seeker from item
7 Critical threat range (How does a fighter have a 7 Critical Threat Range, 14-20 is 6...)
4 Critical multiplier
388 Base critical damage
1 Effects
0 <Element> Burst
0 <Element> Blast
0 Alignment Burst
0 Alignment Blast
0 Natural 20
64 Total seeker damage (How does a fighter have 64 seeker damage, seeker enhancements do not add damage..)
0 Critical Effects
453 Critical Total

Most calculators include kensei bonuses to critical hits in the seeker line, as they function in the same way (assuming the critical hit is confirmed). They then add it to

Kensei II offers +8 to critical damage before multipliers. An epic bloodstone adds another +8 seeker. Thus, added together, that is 16 damage. An Epic Sword of Shadows has a x4 multiplier in this calculation, so the build's seeker bonuses contribute 64 damage on every critical hit. As a note, the changes to epic sword of shadows would reduce that value to 48. Another note, this build could be improved by using Litany of the Dead, Epic Marilith Chain, and Ravager set bonuses.

Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery II

* Prerequisites: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensei II, Fighter <specific weapon> Specialization I, Kensei <specific weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>

* Cost: 1 Action Point
* Benefit: (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons) You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
* Benefit: (Two handed weapons) You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

Gol
06-10-2010, 12:06 PM
How does a fighter have a 7 Critical Threat Range, 14-20 is 6...
How does a fighter have 64 seeker damage, seeker enhancements do not add damage..Kensai, look it up.

Gol
06-10-2010, 12:08 PM
No. No assumptions were made. Data was observed and used to show me that my toons will still hold their DPS weight after the patch in relation to everyone else after the patch.

P.S. I am not arguing with him, he is arguing with himself. I am merely sstating tried and true scientific method.


You are asking the guy who does not crank out spreadsheets to prove a point, to crank out a spreadsheet to prove a point.
No, I'm asking you to post what you claim to already have.

oweieie
06-10-2010, 12:13 PM
7 Critical threat range (How does a fighter have a 7 Critical Threat Range, 14-20 is 6...)

14-20 is 7 numbers, but shouldn't it be 15-20? *shrug*


64 Total seeker damage (How does a fighter have 64 seeker damage, seeker enhancements do not add damage..)

64 would be x4 warforged power attack damage with a two-hander. I don't think seeker doubles so epic bloodstone would only be 32 more.

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 12:15 PM
64 would be x4 warforged power attack damage with a two-hander. I don't think seeker doubles so epic bloodstone would only be 32 more.

Warforged power attack would already be included in the base weapon damage. Seeker is referring to effects that are added to critical hits only and multiplied by the critical multiplier.

Garth_of_Sarlona
06-10-2010, 12:16 PM
Kensai, look it up.

Chai doesn't need to look it up - he does dps calculations with his gut! A bit like Stephen Colbert.

Garth

Hydro
06-10-2010, 12:18 PM
Kensai, look it up.

Yeah see it and I understand now, oh well this post was never about barbarians vs. fighters damage output. All these comparisons are doing is showing that fighters damage are going to be even further ahead of the barbarian now. Even though both classes are loosing 10% swing speed the fighter is at least getting 10% double strike chance.

Absolute-Omniscience
06-10-2010, 12:20 PM
14-20 is 7 numbers, but shouldn't it be 15-20? *shrug*


fighter kensai III gives +1 crit range



64 would be x4 warforged power attack damage with a two-hander. I don't think seeker doubles so epic bloodstone would only be 32 more.

8 Bloodstone
4 from kensai I
4 from kensai II
=
16*4=64

These are pre U5 calcs though, so these aren't accurate to U5, though that haven't hit live, so wont post any U5 calcs until they do. Will however post graphs.



Another note, this build could be improved by using Litany of the Dead, Epic Marilith Chain, and Ravager set bonuses.

Epic marilith requires non-wf, so 3 less pa enhancemnets = 6 less dmg per swing before crits.
Ravanger means no FB / shintao

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:21 PM
No, I'm asking you to post what you claim to already have.

You want to see how I compared my toons against eachother in static tests beating on portals, and attacking certain mobs? To what end? I think you and everyone else should do this on your own toons, and on your own terms rather than trying to make me cough up my own comparison.

You will find out that (insert class here) isnt going to be dead after the update.

Or, like everyone else, you will find out, by observing how quickly all this gloom and doom hype dies off after the update, like it does after every major change.

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:31 PM
Chai doesn't need to look it up - he does dps calculations with his gut! A bit like Stephen Colbert.

Garth

The post that you quoted wasnt telling Chai to look it up. It was a response to Hydro asking questions about Kensai.

You guys are so bent on this issue many people are not even seeing straight at this point.

Oh, I'm afraid this Frenzied Beserker will be fully armed and operational, when your gloom and doom update arrives.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/prizt/star_wars_fans_pick_up_lines_edited.jpg

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:33 PM
Yeah see it and I understand now, oh well this post was never about barbarians vs. fighters damage output. All these comparisons are doing is showing that fighters damage are going to be even further ahead of the barbarian now. Even though both classes are loosing 10% swing speed the fighter is at least getting 10% double strike chance.

I wish they would add something like this to the barb capstone. It will effectively be 2 str after the update, unless you play your toon nailed to the ground, and beckon mobs to bring their pretty faces to your ax.

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 12:38 PM
Ravanger means no FB / shintao

Ravager gives 7 damage (2d6) every swing and procs on every glancing blow. Frenzied berzerker set bonus gives 2 damage per swing, or 4.2 on a Kensei III using epic SoS and controlling for critical hits.

It is an especially useful set for really amping up the glancing blow damage, as it will give an extra 7 damage to every glancing blow.

There is no conflict between using Shintao set and Ravager set. Ravager is superior to Knost's for two handed fighting builds -- especially a fighter that does not receive anything else from the set bonus.

(keeping both on hand makes sense for fighting undead and constructs immune to ravager's damage)

Deathseeker
06-10-2010, 12:44 PM
Chai, while I agree with some of your general premise (dps calcs don't define the ultimate experience in game), I think you are going to far to the extreme in trying to make your point, to a level that's damaging what I think your underlying point is.

DPS calcs are very, very helpful in looking at these changes.

Using a real world analogy, it's like trying to determine how bad an oil spill may be. Sure, the full effect might not be known for years after all the aftermath is experienced, but looking at how fast the oil is spilling out, and calculating that rate compared to previous spills, is extremely valid and useful. It may not quantify what the full effect is of the disaster, but it certainly helps quantify it and give a point of comparison to start setting expectations.

(Note that while I am looking forward to the changes in U5, I thought some others in this thread might appreciate comparing it to a natural disaster) :D

Also, understand that many get enjoyment from the game from looking at the underlying mechanics, and assuming that IF they play in a perfect environment, what heights they have the potential to hit in terms of dps. While we might argue that Utopian dps situation may not occur, or so infrequently it doesn't effect most of the player base, that doesnt change the fact that some enjoy looking at the game from that perspective. And some even do approach hitting those heights in game. So it really isn't our place to suggest they are wrong in discussing the changes using a formula approach and predicting the outcome. For their playstyle, it's certainly relevant (and relevant really to anyone who is looking to understand the theoretical effect of the changes).

Please keep the dps calcs coming. Many of us can put them in context and use them for what they are, and not extrapolate from them more than is necessary. I appreciate the hard work many in this thread do to try to quantify the changes!

smatt
06-10-2010, 12:46 PM
Wait...... OK, I've got it...


Who cares :eek::cool::D

grodon9999
06-10-2010, 12:47 PM
I wish they would add something like this to the barb capstone. It will effectively be 2 str after the update, unless you play your toon nailed to the ground, and beckon mobs to bring their pretty faces to your ax.

Train intimidate.

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 12:48 PM
Wait...... OK, I've got it...


Who cares :eek::cool::D

truer words were never spoken

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:53 PM
Chai, while I agree with some of your general premise (dps calcs don't define the ultimate experience in game), I think you are going to far to the extreme in trying to make your point, to a level that's damaging what I think your underlying point is.

DPS calcs are very, very helpful in looking at these changes.

Using a real world analogy, it's like trying to determine how bad an oil spill may be. Sure, the full effect might not be known for years after all the aftermath is experienced, but looking at how fast the oil is spilling out, and calculating that rate compared to previous spills, is extremely valid and useful. It may not quantify what the full effect is of the disaster, but it certainly helps quantify it and give a point of comparison to start setting expectations.

(Note that while I am looking forward to the changes in U5, I thought some others in this thread might appreciate comparing it to a natural disaster) :D

Also, understand that many get enjoyment from the game from looking at the underlying mechanics, and assuming that IF they play in a perfect environment, what heights they have the potential to hit in terms of dps. While we might argue that Utopian dps situation may not occur, or so infrequently it doesn't effect most of the player base, that doesnt change the fact that some enjoy looking at the game from that perspective. And some even do approach hitting those heights in game. So it really isn't our place to suggest they are wrong in discussing the changes using a formula approach and predicting the outcome. For their playstyle, it's certainly relevant (and relevant really to anyone who is looking to understand the theoretical effect of the changes).

Please keep the dps calcs coming. Many of us can put them in context and use them for what they are, and not extrapolate from them more than is necessary. I appreciate the hard work many in this thread do to try to quantify the changes!

I agree.

I dont disprove of calcs, or using them to extrapolate specific facts. I disprove of absolutim, and attempting to use calcs to prove blanket statements.

Somehow this got blown all out of proportion, and interpreted as disproving calcs.

Aaxeyu
06-10-2010, 12:56 PM
Chai, we are still waiting for you to show us how far off the DPS calcs are.

I'm guessing that you either have no numbers, or that the numbers you have will actually back up my point that the DPS calcs are infact sufficient for DPS comparisons.

You seem to be against the very idea of only doing the theoretical work. But you hold no regards for the fact that the DPS calcs are accurrate, and the combat envoirment is not as complex as you try to make it out to be.
That is ignorance. You also showed alot of prejudicism in your statements regarding me and "absolutists".
If you open your mind abit the internets won't be such a scary place, try it.

Chai
06-10-2010, 12:57 PM
Train intimidate.

Intimidate doesnt bring mobs to you. It makes them target you for 6 seconds, while they run and teleport all over the place. Caster and archer AI will still run off and cast / shoot at you.

I also dont play to be surrounded, and move out of flanks and potentially bad situations, the entire time laying the DPS down. Playing on lammania has shown me how much we all move during combat, and how much the damage while moving nerf affects THF.

This reduction in damage while moving is weak.

grodon9999
06-10-2010, 12:59 PM
This reduction in damage while moving is weak.

Did I actually just see him complain about the update? Oh my . . .

Absolute-Omniscience
06-10-2010, 01:00 PM
Ravager gives 7 damage (2d6) every swing and procs on every glancing blow. Frenzied berzerker set bonus gives 2 damage per swing, or 4.2 on a Kensei III using epic SoS and controlling for critical hits.

It is an especially useful set for really amping up the glancing blow damage, as it will give an extra 7 damage to every glancing blow.

There is no conflict between using Shintao set and Ravager set. Ravager is superior to Knost's for two handed fighting builds -- especially a fighter that does not receive anything else from the set bonus.

(keeping both on hand makes sense for fighting undead and constructs immune to ravager's damage)

Dammit, it's been made public.
I've been keeping ravager 100% re-proc on every hit a secret for a long time. Probably a lot of people that know of it, but it's not common knowledge.

Guess it's time to update it for ravager then. Bleh, was so easy to aquire ravager ring before. :D. Call me greedy, I know I am.

And you are correct ofcourse, ravager ring > FB ring.

Deathseeker
06-10-2010, 01:04 PM
Ravager gives 7 damage (2 - 12) every swing and procs on every glancing blow

There, fixed that for ya. I mean we wouldn't want new players confused reading your post and quitting the game due to your use of the XdY notation, would we? :p

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 01:05 PM
Dammit, it's been made public.
I've been keeping ravager 100% re-proc on every hit a secret for a long time. Probably a lot of people that know of it, but it's not common knowledge.

Guess it's time to update it for ravager then. Bleh, was so easy to aquire ravager ring before. :D. Call me greedy, I know I am.

And you are correct ofcourse, ravager ring > FB ring.

It's like no one believes me. I've been trying to tell folks for a while, and their eyes glaze over.

Chai
06-10-2010, 01:06 PM
Did I actually just see him complain about the update? Oh my . . .

You actually heard that over all the gloom and doom?

Anthios888
06-10-2010, 01:07 PM
There, fixed that for ya. I mean we wouldn't want new players confused reading your post and quitting the game due to your use of the XdY notation, would we? :p

I actually prefer the 2 to 7 notation ...

Gercho
06-10-2010, 01:23 PM
Well, i checked the original calculations posted by Aaxeyu, and they werent including the hidden barbarian capstone, so the fix shouldnt alter the final relation for update 5, i believe in calculations, and i learned a lot from that post, and it gave me a lot of tools to interpret different scenarios beyond the one they are analizing, which is what everyone should do instead of complaining about one specific scenario.

Emili
06-10-2010, 04:48 PM
Ravager gives 7 damage (2d6) every swing and procs on every glancing blow. Frenzied berzerker set bonus gives 2 damage per swing, or 4.2 on a Kensei III using epic SoS and controlling for critical hits.

It is an especially useful set for really amping up the glancing blow damage, as it will give an extra 7 damage to every glancing blow.

There is no conflict between using Shintao set and Ravager set. Ravager is superior to Knost's for two handed fighting builds -- especially a fighter that does not receive anything else from the set bonus.

(keeping both on hand makes sense for fighting undead and constructs immune to ravager's damage)

This is why am seeking to epic a duskheart and maralith chain... I have two ToD sets on Emili Kensai and Ravager, in the time being I wear knost for GFL but a switch to SFL in the trinket slot and seeker on chain means I may have the 2-12 bleed proc all the time (instead of some of the time) on my Kensai.

OF NOTE.... I said this a few times now... DPS took a major turn and many of the numbers which were once on the MOD side (str) are now on the Proc's side.

BlackSteel
06-10-2010, 04:52 PM
Dammit, it's been made public.
I've been keeping ravager 100% re-proc on every hit a secret for a long time. Probably a lot of people that know of it, but it's not common knowledge.

Guess it's time to update it for ravager then. Bleh, was so easy to aquire ravager ring before. :D. Call me greedy, I know I am.

And you are correct ofcourse, ravager ring > FB ring.

I thought that was a fairly well known fact.. Heck its even listed as working like that on the ToD effect guide thats floating around here somewhere.

Emili
06-10-2010, 05:09 PM
I thought that was a fairly well known fact.. Heck its even listed as working like that on the ToD effect guide thats floating around here somewhere.
Sure is and I believe I and others mentioned such within a week after ToD was out... The ring dropped for me in my second run and I was out in the battlefield playing with that set... took me forever to get my kensai ring on top though 40th end reward...


Intimidate doesnt bring mobs to you. It makes them target you for 6 seconds, while they run and teleport all over the place. Caster and archer AI will still run off and cast / shoot at you.

I also dont play to be surrounded, and move out of flanks and potentially bad situations, the entire time laying the DPS down. Playing on lammania has shown me how much we all move during combat, and how much the damage while moving nerf affects THF.

This reduction in damage while moving is weak.

This has been my biggest issue with the update... the game is real time, the movement and pace of game made it fun. When you walk up and stand still to swing your best then the game play feels more like am on a table top... pace is slowed, idea of real-time starts to diminish, one may as well put on autoattack and instead of tactics - flanking etc... start to go away... Mob do not stand still they run to range or back up to cast... playing caster knows you escape the casting slow-down to speed by jumping in the air to cast - keeps you moving ... pace and movement made the game exciting.