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View Full Version : Remove shrines for resting.



Vinven
06-08-2010, 09:08 PM
Honestly it seems kind of silly that there are shrines in each and every dungeon, and that we can only rest at them. Honestly you should be able to rest anywhere. If you want to prevent players from abusing it, make it have a chance to spawn mobs on you or something. :/

Trillea
06-08-2010, 09:11 PM
While I understand where you are coming from, it would break the game. At endgame, who cares if another group of monsters comes, you are gonna plow through them anyway if you just filled your SP...

Uska
06-08-2010, 09:18 PM
no

yams
06-08-2010, 09:38 PM
My God, what an awful suggestion. There is NO WAY to prevent players from abusing an infinite pool of spell points.

Vinven
06-08-2010, 09:41 PM
What you dont understand is in every other game you technically have unlimited mana points. On my mage in wow I can rest any time I want and keep on going. Perhaps extend the rest time so that it slows the progress, or something.

Ggcpres
06-08-2010, 09:51 PM
no

in wow you don't have an infinite pool, it just regenerates if you stand still for a while.

DDO is a different game, conjure food or drink would rip it in sunder.

Stermlin
06-08-2010, 09:59 PM
I have to admit, at first I missed the Everquest style of simply sitting down to regen HP and Mana and wished DDO were like that. But DDO is a different type of game: it's not an open world, it's instanced based. Because of that, being able to rest anywhere to recoup would pretty much make every raid a cake walk.

Not signed.

DoctorWhofan
06-08-2010, 10:06 PM
No. It would break the game. Imagine resting during part 4 of the Shroud while the other healer heals. Imagine resting in Xoriat cipher at level.

No no no...

DoctorWhofan
06-08-2010, 10:08 PM
What you dont understand is in every other game you technically have unlimited mana points. On my mage in wow I can rest any time I want and keep on going. Perhaps extend the rest time so that it slows the progress, or something.

Because they are not instanced. Because it would break the game. ANd why should DDO be like other games? It isn't and that is one of it's selling points. Shrines teach Mana conservation and teamwork.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-08-2010, 10:08 PM
What you dont understand is in every other game you technically have unlimited mana points. On my mage in wow I can rest any time I want and keep on going. Perhaps extend the rest time so that it slows the progress, or something.

We understand, we just don't want to adopt the bad parts of other games.

zorander6
06-08-2010, 10:09 PM
Sorry but your request for the:

http://jillandkate.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/easy-button.jpg


will most likely never happen.

phalaeo
06-08-2010, 10:19 PM
Oh dear Gods, no.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-08-2010, 10:19 PM
Sorry but your request for the:

http://jillandkate.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/easy-button.jpg


will most likely never happen.

There is a point I would have agreed with you.

Now the only reason I disagree is that the easy button (shrines) are on sale in the store so they have given the easy button and won't take it away.

Vinven
06-08-2010, 10:20 PM
No need to be mean. I am just saying the rest shrines being in every dungeon kinda seems silly, who puts these shrines there? In D&D you can technically rest anywhere, but the DM can throw stuff at you if you do.

Vinven
06-08-2010, 10:25 PM
Maybe they could put in a rest ability that is on a cooldown, or something. I dunno, I just dont like the idea of shrines. :/

Uryamore
06-08-2010, 10:42 PM
Would you prefer if it looked like a couple bedrolls and a rat on a stick over a campfire?

Vinven
06-08-2010, 10:45 PM
Honestly, yes. It would be easier to believe than two giant stone statues that somehow are in all these dungeons magically that we have to use to rest. >< Who rests at a stone statue?

toughguyjoe
06-08-2010, 10:48 PM
The only alternative to shrines that I like is allow a player to rest ONCE and allow them to rest anywhere they like.

In special instances (raids, excrutiatingly long quests) there may be a "Camp site" that allows you to rest at that location ONCE.

then you'd have to make some other sort of silly thing for people to rez on so...probably sticking with what we have is best.

arminius
06-08-2010, 10:58 PM
Honestly, yes. It would be easier to believe than two giant stone statues that somehow are in all these dungeons magically that we have to use to rest. >< Who rests at a stone statue?

Yes it does require suspension of disbelief, doesn't it? I interpret them as metaphors. Or something.

I always wished for quests where the designers took this odd mechanism into account. You are a monster in a monster-filled dungeon. You have various rest points around your dungeon, and that is all well and good, because your fellow monsters use them, or hang clothes out to dry on them, or whatever.

But you are now being invaded by adventurers! You know that if you could destroy the shrines, you would cut off the invaders ability to replenish their resources, and you could defeat them! So why don't you?

There should be a quest where monsters send out combat patrols to destroy the shrines, and the longer you take with the quest and/or the less successful you are at stopping the patrols, the fewer shrines you will end up with as the quest progresses.

Doxmaster
06-08-2010, 10:59 PM
Ghoste: The Shadowmage. He would do terrible things to this:
Resting, stealthed somehow, while literally standing on Beholders.
Resting, at hard parts, while monsters stare at him, kinda waiting to die.


That said:
Who would use mana potions? No mana potion, no profit from those items. Though it is easy to work around this right now, making it even easier wont make Turbine money.

Way I see Shrines: a safe cranny in the quest; monsters do not normally patrol in here and, if they do, they are not quickly replaced. Your enemies do not think losing this place is possible, or that anyone would dare stop here, even for a moment. It feels safer here than standing out in the open and you spend every second that you dare strengthening your resolve, praying for divine favor or reconnecting with true arcane might.

Myrddinman
06-08-2010, 11:02 PM
Would you prefer if it looked like a couple bedrolls and a rat on a stick over a campfire?

I'm all for this!
:p

Uryamore
06-08-2010, 11:15 PM
Ok, so all in favor of the rat-with-bedrolls reskinning for the rest areas?
I've got two and a half so far! (despite coming up with it, I'm a little undecided)

(for those curious about the mechanisms: use bedrolls to rest, use rat to rez)

Matuse
06-08-2010, 11:23 PM
What you dont understand is in every other game you technically have unlimited mana points. On my mage in wow I can rest any time I want and keep on going. Perhaps extend the rest time so that it slows the progress, or something.

We do understand this. Thing is, magic is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful in DDO than other games. Giving spellcasters infinite SP would remove any and all challenge from every quest in the game.

Resource management is part of the DDO experience. Become a better player and you'll be asking "Why are there so MANY shrines, we don't need them".

And not every quest has shrines.

tfangel
06-08-2010, 11:28 PM
Honestly, yes. It would be easier to believe than two giant stone statues that somehow are in all these dungeons magically that we have to use to rest. >< Who rests at a stone statue?

The monsters do, that's how we can go back and in and kill them again, they've rested and rezed. ;)

DoctorWhofan
06-08-2010, 11:29 PM
Ok, so all in favor of the rat-with-bedrolls reskinning for the rest areas?
I've got two and a half so far! (despite coming up with it, I'm a little undecided)

(for those curious about the mechanisms: use bedrolls to rest, use rat to rez)

Reskinning...yes. Taking them out...no. Frankly I don't care what they look like as long as they function.

zorander6
06-08-2010, 11:37 PM
Reskinning...yes. Taking them out...no. Frankly I don't care what they look like as long as they function.

This ^^


It's bad enough you can buy healing if you want to from the DDO store, why make it so there is absolutely no challenge in the dungeons by allowing mages to have infinite magic abilities. I know a lot of RPG's allow this but it sometimes can make the game far to easy.

Reskinning I would be perfectly OK with though. I figure the shrines as places to worship whatever $diety your character believes in. A camp ground would be fine however. ;)

Temppu
06-08-2010, 11:39 PM
Rest anywhere at anytime - I suppose it would end up to low level style pen'n'paper-playing. After each encounter spell casters are out of spells and whole group has to rest (put the camp, wait till evening, sleep, pray/study spells). It takes one whole game day. At DDO it would mean that you play five minute, then 24hr later you can play again.

It would give totally new meaning for 'real time'.

Myrddinman
06-08-2010, 11:40 PM
Ok, so all in favor of the rat-with-bedrolls reskinning for the rest areas?
I've got two and a half so far! (despite coming up with it, I'm a little undecided)

(for those curious about the mechanisms: use bedrolls to rest, use rat to rez)

Hell...I'd settle for having to buy rations and find a corner in the dungeon to lay down. Anything with just a little more D&D flair.

Although, I don't really mind the shrine...I think of it more as a uniform and symbolic rest area.

Ode1st
06-08-2010, 11:40 PM
The only problem I really have with rest shrines are that they break the fourth wall, basically. I'm always wondering why a clan of kobolds or a tomb filled with deadly ghosts and curse-spewing mummies would install rest shrines to help heal the players who are coming to kill them.

Myrddinman
06-08-2010, 11:44 PM
The only problem I really have with rest shrines are that they break the fourth wall, basically. I'm always wondering why a clan of kobolds or a tomb filled with deadly ghosts and curse-spewing mummies would install rest shrines to help heal the players who are coming to kill them.

It's masochistic...they can't control themselves.

RequiemVampie
06-09-2010, 12:20 AM
OP, accounting for your join date, either this post dawned on you during a quiet time of meditation or you got hit on the head really hard.

In either case, after playing the game for 4 years, I would not be complaining about the shrines now. In one of the new quests on the test server, the shrines are in place of the toilet paper rolls in the bathroom. :D Is that more to your liking? lol

karnokvolrath
06-09-2010, 12:33 AM
No.
Fail.
Easy Button.

You may want to look into this though, similar mechanic...oh and its free as well :) With an emulator.

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ryancookpimp00/eyeofbeholder.jpg

Enjoy.

weyoun
06-09-2010, 12:42 AM
My God, what an awful suggestion. There is NO WAY to prevent players from abusing an infinite pool of spell points.

Most mmo's you regen SP and HP, including LOTRO. That said, I like shrines.

AyumiAmakusa
06-09-2010, 12:50 AM
Shrines teach Mana conservation and teamwork.

^^ This. Learn how to conserve your mana~~

sephiroth1084
06-09-2010, 12:54 AM
I had an idea along these lines geared more toward getting rid of the obnoxious shrine look/flavor for something a bit more D&D-esque, which could possibly be tooled around with to function in this way:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191721

Therilith
06-09-2010, 01:20 AM
Most mmo's you regen SP and HP, including LOTRO. That said, I like shrines.

Does LotRO have spells that instantly kill large groups of opponents?

Daggaz
06-09-2010, 01:26 AM
No need to be mean. I am just saying the rest shrines being in every dungeon kinda seems silly, who puts these shrines there? In D&D you can technically rest anywhere, but the DM can throw stuff at you if you do.

No, "technically" you most certainly cannot rest anywhere. And from your previous assertions about WoW, infinite manapools, and resting whenever you wanted to, in DnD you cannot rest at anytime, either.

You can rest once a day in DnD, and you have to be somewhere safe and reasonably comfortable such that your character could be assumed to actually fall asleep/trance for the requisite 8 hours (less if your an elf or have magic items etc). So no falling asleep exposed to the elements, the weather, rats constantly gnawing on your feet, etc, what have you. On top of this, you can only do it once a day. Thats waiting a 24 hour cycle before trying again. Bad enough that some groups try to break this mechanic by waiting a full day after each encounter, but thats what time limits, random encounters, and really nasty DMs are for.

The fact that DDO already allows you to rest multiple times in a dungeon that only takes a few hours game time to complete (or pretty much every hour or so game time on normal) is already breaking this rule set and leaning towards "those other MMOs". But then again, they had to or the gamepace would be far, far too slow for a live action computer game. Hence our beefed up hp and sp as well.

Apparently that point has slipped your grasp. So here you go:

1. DDO is already breaking 3.5 rules
2. DDO does not need to lean even more towards other MMOs, it needs to be DDO
3. Shrines are an ingame metaphore/compromise for the old 3.5 resting rules, which are simply too slow and too complex to institute fully.

oh and

4. Posting on the forums that the game should be easier, and especially that it should be more like WoW (commonly seen as its arch-rival), is guaranteed to rouse the natives. And the natives are restless.

English_Warrior
06-09-2010, 01:32 AM
No.
Fail.
Easy Button.

You may want to look into this though, similar mechanic...oh and its free as well :) With an emulator.

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ryancookpimp00/eyeofbeholder.jpg

Enjoy.

Im thinking "eye of the beholder"...that brings back memories...and not all good...cant tell you how many times I got lost in the maze of trees you had to cut down...or the maze of hallways in the haunted castle.

Lagin
06-09-2010, 01:33 AM
What do you think this is? D&D?

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/th_aa613865.gif?t=1276065119
(http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/?action=view&current=aa613865.gif)

NO! But HELLL NO!

stilldamom
06-09-2010, 01:50 AM
What is the difference between resting 'anywhere' in a dungeon once every 15 minutes, and resting at a shrine once every 15 minutes?

I had more arguments but I read them before I hit the 'submit reply' button.

Sometimes I think people forget to read what they just typed before pressing 'submit reply'.

Duncani_Daho
06-09-2010, 02:11 AM
Instead of anywhere, how about resting nowhere in a dungeon? Sure, if you want to emote /sit, suit yourself. But if you want to complete a quest, sir, you'd best shoulder your ax and get to work. All the resources you're ever gonna get in The Core come from CHARACTER CLASS ABILITIES and what they manage to loot from chest and get from rewards. Ok, ok, toss in the occasional nugget from npc collectors.

Would it be possible to get past level 10 without ever shrining? What if you also limited twinking out toons (none!), forbid heirlooms, House P and J buffs, xp penalty for being over quest level, and even forbid rez shrines because dying ist verboten? Could you run Gianthold and Tempests Spine?

Yes, and yes. The Core HC Permadeath Guild puts "rest" where it belongs, in the taverns with tales and songs.

We just completed VON3. Can be done and more to follow.

come and get some hardcore,

Movan,
thecorehc.home.comcast.net

Uryamore
06-09-2010, 08:51 AM
Does LotRO have spells that instantly kill large groups of opponents?
Depending on the opponents, yes, but it doesn't have anything equivalent to the Wail save or die.

Combat is different, pacing is different, and LotRO has cosmetic outfits, so there isn't a lot of honest comparison between the two games.

Hendrik
06-09-2010, 09:17 AM
Keep Shrines.


Just change them to be more like a 'camp' w/ bedrolls. To me, the shrines themselves break the immersion and have always wanted them replaced with something with a different graphic.

Laith
06-09-2010, 09:33 AM
Ultimately, i think the OP is asking for the "must rest here" portion of the mechanic to go away.

A mechanic could be set up that allows X rests per dungeon* in anywhere not flagged as an "Encounter Area". Encounter Areas could be set by monsters within Y distance, or just static areas (like the fighting areas of shroud, or anywhere else that prevents abuse). This could be notated in the buff bar.

Unfortunately, this is a lot of dev work for what is ultimately limited gain (primarily: not having to run to a shrine). Also: what about resurrection shrines? I have no suggestions there. A lot more thought would have to be put into this idea before it can be taken seriously. The game is built around the solution we have now, and it works given a suspension of disbelief. the suggestion is a major change that could upset the feel and balance of every quest in the game.

*or time period, shrines on normal reset every 15 minutes

BTW, my explanation involves enemies seeking shrines as sources of their powers. Prolonged proximity to rest shrines gives them the ability to cast endlessly (heedless of SP) and heals them when unthreatened. they worship the resurrection shrines above all other gods, as they visit it more times a day than the bathroom.

As wandering adventures, we cannot become well enough attuned to a single rest shrine to get endless SP. Shrine Essence, however, can be extracted for use in magical items/potions to allow similar effects. One could say that secondary to saving the world from destruction, adventurers most valuable service is in the constant war of requisitioning this valuable resource from the forces of evil.

Ashiel_Dragmire
06-09-2010, 09:46 AM
You could have a rest area that looks like a small camp ground complete with fire pit, bedrolls, and some other camping amenities (Rest Shrine) and then have a small shrine to some random god/pantheon/church such as a shrine of the Sovereign Host or a Shrine of the Silver Flame (Resurrection Shrine). It would be more aesthetically pleasing, to me at least.

MrFister
06-09-2010, 09:54 AM
Remove shrines. Make all instances timed. Make "resting" take a set amount of time.

Rest as much as you want, but you might fail the quest!

Myrddinman
06-09-2010, 09:55 AM
BTW, my explanation involves enemies seeking shrines as sources of their powers. Prolonged proximity to rest shrines gives them the ability to cast endlessly (heedless of SP) and heals them when unthreatened, and they worship the resurrection shrines above all other gods, as they visit it more times a day than the bathroom.

As wandering adventures, we cannot become well enough attuned to a single rest shrine to get endless XP. Shrine Essence, however, can be extracted for use in magical items/potions to allow similar effects. One could say that secondary to saving the world from destruction, adventurers most valuable service is in the constant war of requisitioning this valuable resource from the forces of evil.

I like this explanation ;)
+1

Kandjar
06-09-2010, 10:02 AM
what about having a set number of "free" rest every quest. They once they are spent, each subsequent rest would add between -10% and -20% xp with a -1 on chest loot.

Shaamis
06-09-2010, 10:08 AM
.... On my mage in wow.....

after seeing this, i stopped reading your post. Let me be perfectly clear...






This.......






is.......





NOT......







WoW!

That is all.

Ganolyn
06-09-2010, 10:29 AM
Honestly, yes. It would be easier to believe than two giant stone statues that somehow are in all these dungeons magically that we have to use to rest. >< Who rests at a stone statue?

I agree. I want a picnic area with tables and a drinking fountain, ohh and one of those cool little playgrounds for the kids... and grass, lots of grass....


I agree with Laith that the Shrines are ancient, neutral and eternal. All sides can benefit from them.

Having one free party rest in the quest might not be such a bad idea though. Sort of you get one prayer to the gods and a Rest of Eladrin statue appears. Maybe its a weaker version that only gives you half normal HP and SP regen.

Shaamis
06-09-2010, 10:35 AM
I lied , I have more :P

All of the ideas proposed here have a marginal improvement, but can also be abused, misused, or not work, on a lot of factors that cannot be controlled.

The current application is well controlled by Turbine, and can be adjusted by adding more, or taking out additional shrines.

Ultimately, any changes proposed will mean more dev time taken away from new mods/character options/adventures, and it will probably result in more back-work to correct any new abuses or issues from making a change.

/not signed.

Keep shrines the way they are, if you NEED more shrines, I can tell you where it is in the DDO store to buy.

Tymoriel_Ayreweaver
06-09-2010, 10:44 AM
We understand, we just don't want to adopt the bad parts of other games.

this

Rakian_Knight
06-09-2010, 11:53 PM
Would you prefer if it looked like a couple bedrolls and a rat on a stick over a campfire?

Acually I would prefer this over the stone statues as well.

However, I do believe that the "free" resting could work, give it a 15 min cooldown timer on normal, 20 min on hard and maybe 25-30 mins on elite. Yes, in theory you do have unlimited mana/health but who wants to stay in a dungeon all day just so they can rest after every battle.

And if you do, I'll see you on epic in 20 years.

EDIT: MAYBE for early missions you would have to edit this but you get the idea.

Biggby
06-10-2010, 12:32 AM
I think setting a static 15 minute rest anywhere time would actually make things harder for casters. There are a lot of quests where you are only using each shrine once and it doesn't take 15 minutes to get between them. Once I get buffs to around 7 minutes on a lot of quests I no longer use extend when I cast them because I am frequently to the next shrine before they would run out. So with 15 minutes between rests you are either stuck casting less or groups have to wait around for your timer to end. People generally love standing around waiting.

On the upside for turbine we would have to buy even more pots from the store while non casters could continue getting all of there health pots with in game money and whining when someone runs out of spell points

samthedagger
06-10-2010, 12:37 AM
Worst suggestion ever. I accept shrines as a necessary evil in a game like DDO. You can't have a game that attempts to replicate resource management like that found in D&D without having a limited resting system. Whenever I see a shrine, I just tell myself that this is DDO's way of saying, "Hey, here's a room that's well-defended and out-of-the-way where monsters won't see you, so it's safe to rest." Everywhere else is merely a "hot zone" where monsters regularly traffic. It's an acceptable compromise. The shrines are only there in the meta sense, for player's eyes only. My character never actually sees them.

Whether the number of shrines in every quest is balanced is a completely different issue. Quests that take an hour to complete and have only one shrine are draconian, while quests that have shrines around every corner can be soloed by a wizard with 6 Con. Thankfully, such quests fall into the category of a small minority.

joneb1999
06-10-2010, 02:54 AM
Worst suggestion ever. I accept shrines as a necessary evil in a game like DDO. You can't have a game that attempts to replicate resource management like that found in D&D without having a limited resting system. Whenever I see a shrine, I just tell myself that this is DDO's way of saying, "Hey, here's a room that's well-defended and out-of-the-way where monsters won't see you, so it's safe to rest." Everywhere else is merely a "hot zone" where monsters regularly traffic. It's an acceptable compromise. The shrines are only there in the meta sense, for player's eyes only. My character never actually sees them.

Whether the number of shrines in every quest is balanced is a completely different issue. Quests that take an hour to complete and have only one shrine are draconian, while quests that have shrines around every corner can be soloed by a wizard with 6 Con. Thankfully, such quests fall into the category of a small minority.

Erm maybe instead of a shrine that is a way of DDO saying here is an out of the way place to rest, you actually give the players an out of the way place to rest. The design can function the same way as shrines but it wouldnt be a stone monolyth that stands out. Instead it would be an area that is part of its environment. It could be an out of the way room or maybe as in Gianthold Tor a secret spot like one of those hidden cave entrances or in a wilderness a campfire in a safe corner and each time it would be marked with a rest symbol for clarification. Instead of a res shrine a character could carry a holy item that allows their god to res them at these designated rest points the excuse being that these are the only peaceful enough places for the ritual of ressing to work.