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TheAntiChrist21
06-06-2010, 08:46 PM
So I'm currently a lv. 4 sorcerer, and I'm thinking about splashing 1 or 2 levels of bard. I want to know whether the bard's armored casting feat will stick around after I stop leveling bard. Will I be able to cast anything while wearing light armor? Also, is it worth it to splash bard? I'm liking the idea of having access to a healing spell, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing the level(s) in sorcerer. What do you think?

BLAKROC
06-06-2010, 08:52 PM
it's not worth splashing bard on a sorc stay pure...... you really gain nothing of benifit in the long run

Memnir
06-06-2010, 08:57 PM
So I'm currently a lv. 4 sorcerer, and I'm thinking about splashing 1 or 2 levels of bard. I want to know whether the bard's armored casting feat will stick around after I stop leveling bard. Will I be able to cast anything while wearing light armor? Also, is it worth it to splash bard? I'm liking the idea of having access to a healing spell, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing the level(s) in sorcerer. What do you think?You will only be able to cast the spells you select as a Bard w/o spell failure. Every spell you cast taken as a Sorc would be subject to spell failure rolls. You can mitigate that if you are an Elf (non Drow) and wish to make the AP investment.

It's really not worth it to multiclass a Sorc, IMHO. Perhaps start putting Skill Points into UMD, and work towards Cure wand usage?

TheAntiChrist21
06-06-2010, 09:06 PM
You will only be able to cast the spells you select as a Bard w/o spell failure. Every spell you cast taken as a Sorc would be subject to spell failure rolls. You can mitigate that if you are an Elf (non Drow) and wish to make the AP investment.

It's really not worth it to multiclass a Sorc, IMHO. Perhaps start putting Skill Points into UMD, and work towards Cure wand usage?

Thanks all. Yeah I'm liking the wand option, the only problem is that I get so few skill pts. per level to burn on UMD. At least being a human gives me 4/level instead of the normal 2 for a sorc.

jcTharin
06-06-2010, 09:07 PM
it's not worth splashing bard on a sorc stay pure...... you really gain nothing of benifit in the long run

umd

edit* someone beat me

Hobgoblin
06-06-2010, 09:18 PM
Thanks all. Yeah I'm liking the wand option, the only problem is that I get so few skill pts. per level to burn on UMD. At least being a human gives me 4/level instead of the normal 2 for a sorc.

human should only be 1 more so three instead of 2

Diib
06-06-2010, 09:44 PM
You will only be able to cast the spells you select as a Bard w/o spell failure. Every spell you cast taken as a Sorc would be subject to spell failure rolls. You can mitigate that if you are an Elf (non Drow) and wish to make the AP investment.

It's really not worth it to multiclass a Sorc, IMHO. Perhaps start putting Skill Points into UMD, and work towards Cure wand usage?


While this is the way it SHOULD work, it is not. I have tested bard splashes extensively. Here is my latest:
http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/stormcoil/

You will be able to cast all arcane spells while wearing light armor if you splash bard. This can be very useful not for AC, but rather for some of the named loot light armor (Silken Mail, Marilith Chain, etc.) which can end up saving slots for your character and increasing your utility in situations. At low level, say up until level 12 the AC boost helps tremendously, after that it takes a lot of gear to keep the ac at a decent level, and is probably not worth the investment. If you can find a superior potency VI small mithril shield you can help your spellcasting and ac, but these items are incredibly rare and expensive.

Don't underestimate the ability to have an arcane heal spell either. Before you get the ability to umd heal scrolls having that cure light in your back pocket can be a life saver... if for instance you are able to heal the cleric while they are bleeding to death. My maximized/empowered cure lights do about 33-39 points at level 20... not remotely mana efficient, but sometimes there is no substitute to being able to cast any kind of cure spell.

Also, as bard is a casting class, that level of bard will not reduce your spell penetration rolls. All of your casting classes are added together for your spell pen value.

Finally, 1 level of bard will open up umd allowing you to take 23 ranks. As both bard and sorc are charisma based casters this will make it much easier to use heal scrolls 100% at later levels.

1bard/19 sorc has almost the same spell points as a 20 sorc, the same spell pen, and the ability to use light armor and cast arcane healing - but you will lose one 9th level spell slot. Do you need 3 9th level spells? That answer may be yes.


Also, race is a consideration. While bard allows you to cast all arcane spells while wearing light armor, strangely this feature/bug does not apply to warforged mithril body - which "counts" as light armor. You will still have normal spell failure with non bard arcane spells if you are a warforged caster with the mithril body feat.

Conventional wisdom is that a bard splash is not worth it, but if you know what the tradeoffs are I have found 1 level of bard to be indespensible. Take that for what it is worth.

tihocan
06-06-2010, 09:56 PM
1bard/19 sorc has almost the same spell points as a 20 sorc, the same spell pen
-1 Spell pen, unless I'm missing something obvious (been doing that a lot latey :rolleyes:)

Diib
06-06-2010, 10:10 PM
(Combat): You roll to see if your spell penetrates Rakshasa Thaumaturge's spell resistance. You roll a 11 (+23): spell penetration success!

That is not what my testing is showing. The above line I just got out of my combat log for my wizard. With 17 wizard, a greater spell pen VIII item (so +3) and two levels of spell pen out of ap enhancements, I should only be a 17+5.... or a +22. But this char has 1 bard, and bard is a casting class, and I'm seeing a +1 spell pen from bard.


Another way of testing this is look at the spell pen rolls for a 9 cleric/7 wizard. The cleric spells will have a spell pen value of 16, not 9... it is adding the casting classes together for spell pen... at least in the combat log, which is what I have to go by.

If someone else can prove me wrong, I'm all for it. But from the testing I can see bard is adding 1 spell pen.

Edit: My cleric/wizard has since been deleted, so I can't test that combo currently. But there are a few running around out there that could verify they are getting the same results I tested 6 months ago.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-06-2010, 10:20 PM
While this is the way it SHOULD work, it is not. I have tested bard splashes extensively. Here is my latest:
http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/stormcoil/

You will be able to cast all arcane spells while wearing light armor if you splash bard. .

This is a bug, and we've already been told its on the "to be fixed list". We were specifically warned "not to build a character around that bug".

If you build it, you will eventually be fixed.

Noctus
06-06-2010, 10:22 PM
There are some short-lived low to low-midlevels advantages to the splash. Once you go higher level the disadvantages overwhelm them and you will be worse off than going pure.


If you never plan to play this character past level 8, splash the Bard level.


If you want a character who will be taken into raids without some scrutiny and would like to run high-level and endgame content without discussions with the group leader, stay pure.

Diib
06-06-2010, 10:24 PM
What do you lose other than a 3rd 9th level slot and 5% boost to sp from items?

Diib
06-06-2010, 10:26 PM
This is a bug, and we've already been told its on the "to be fixed list". We were specifically warned "not to build a character around that bug".

If you build it, you will eventually be fixed.

I agree, IF they ever fix this bug, you will want to tr/re-evalute the build. I was warned against the bard splash last September and have been enjoying its benefits for 9 months already.

I think a lot of people underestimate this build.

Matuse
06-06-2010, 10:45 PM
1bard/19 sorc has almost the same spell points as a 20 sorc, the same spell pen, and the ability to use light armor and cast arcane healing - but you will lose one 9th level spell slot. Do you need 3 9th level spells? That answer may be yes.

You lose several hundred spellpoints (19-20 is a big boost, and you lose the capstone), you lose 1 point of save DC from not having the capstone, and you lose 20% damage from not having the capstone.

Sooooooooooo not worth it.

Diib
06-06-2010, 10:53 PM
Ah, capstone. Yeah, I forgot about that because I usually have more than one splash so its never an option for me. Capstone is a big deal if you are a dps sorc.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-06-2010, 11:33 PM
I agree, IF they ever fix this bug, you will want to tr/re-evalute the build. I was warned against the bard splash last September and have been enjoying its benefits for 9 months already.

I think a lot of people underestimate this build.

Really? Ok, what's your AC and level?

Diib
06-06-2010, 11:56 PM
My AC is 36 at level 20, which I agree is pretty much pointless. Displacement is my armor at this point. I still often use the silken mail when I'm sneaking around though, and it made leveling earlier a lot easier.

AC stopped mattering to me after around level 12, so 13-20 I stopped trying to boost it as it became to gear dependant. The max umd ranks and cure spell helped a lot more than the armor, especially the umd at high levels. 100% heal and rez scrolls can really help when a healer goes down or is overtaxed.

I think its a build that gets a lot more heat than is due, because it really gains some important flexibility.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-07-2010, 12:00 AM
My AC is 36 at level 20, which I agree is pretty much pointless. Displacement is my armor at this point. I still often use the silken mail when I'm sneaking around though, and it made leveling earlier a lot easier.

AC stopped mattering to me after around level 12, so 13-20 I stopped trying to boost it as it became to gear dependant. The max umd ranks and cure spell helped a lot more than the armor, especially the umd at high levels. 100% heal and rez scrolls can really help when a healer goes down or is overtaxed.

I think its a build that gets a lot more heat than is due, because it really gains some important flexibility.

That's exactly my point. The bard light armor doesn't help you at all.

As for the UMD, Sorcs are CHR based, they should be hitting no fail heal/rez scrolls before level 20 even without the bard level.

Bards give you nothing, except a tiny tiny advantage at low level...maybe.

You lost high level spells and spell pen, really bad trade off for a couple points of UMD.

Diib
06-07-2010, 12:17 AM
Well, I don't think we are going to convince each other. But my love of my wiz/brd and sorc/brd splashes comes from playing them a lot, so I'm very comfortable with them. I really only use wail at 9th level, and find I swap the second slot every few days anyway. I just don't miss the last 9th level slot. As for the spell pen, if I'm missing one I don't see how from looking at my combat log... and that might make me slightly more effective in amarath... but it really has not ever been an issue for one of my builds.

I've met plenty of sorcs that don't have umd maxed and don't carry around the scrolls needed to help in a pinch. The heal spell is of limited utility, but can save a party in a pinch.

The capstone is an issue. But I like pal/mnk/sorc or pal/rog/sorc.... and so my wiz/rog/brd or sorc/rog/brd never really had a shot at the capstone. If you are thinking of going 19/1 I can definitely see where that one splash isn't worth losing the capstone... assuming you aren't willing to just buy a +1 heart when/if the bard splash stops being useful.


It frustrates me when people act like there is no advantage to the build who haven't played it though. I've played a pure caster, and I strongly prefer the splash. It fits better with my playstyle, I like to be able to fill multiple roles. To each their own. But its not like its a total trash build, and is very capable of holding its own throughout the game.

bigpapatazz
06-07-2010, 12:27 AM
I had a very great sorc named Pheromone with 1 lvl bard splash when lvl cap was 16(15/1) for umd. You want to take it at first lvl though. Thats when you get lots of skill points to dump into umd. My sorc was using heal scrolls and raise dead scrolls without failure. Many times I would be the nuker and healer on many guild and pug runs. But with the lvl cap up at 20 you can get your umd up quite high enough. I chose drow for the race. It fun to be healing when the cleric is not or not really needing at all. Plus I can back up heal with scrolls on raids. It is a good solo build as well. It can get pricy though can go through lots of heal scrolls.

It is a fun build and a great loot grinding toon to have in your rooster. Some people will say WF sorc can heal but not other guildies that are not WF.