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Boromirs
06-06-2010, 10:21 AM
Well, seeing how theres a MAX DPS builds out there. Im looking for a MAX S&B build, thats right this build will completely throw DPS out the window and focus almost exclusively on DEFENSE, including AC/DR/Saves and of course drawing lots and lots of aggro.

What are your thoughts on the class setup, skill setup, feat setup, race, equipment, and types of play style required to make such a tank. Thanks. :)

Tamad
06-06-2010, 10:38 AM
I actually just put up a barb build which uses defense when needed.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3016574#post3016574

MrWizard
06-06-2010, 11:43 AM
you can do all that and still hit things. This game is different than wow..you may end up being the only tank in the party, who is gonna hit things?

you can stay sword and board, that is fine...there are no specific feats to make you dps in that case (although you could add them).


quite frankly though, if you are not gonna hit anything you will pretty much not have anyone want to group with you.


tanking in ddo is alot different.


go to fighter forums and view by 'view' to see a lot of builds come up...some with dpsvery high ac, dr, saves and dang good dps

lord_of_rage
06-06-2010, 08:08 PM
A tank that doesnt have a dps option is taking up a party slot. Defender builds both paladin and ftr are the best when it comes to that role. I prefer the paladin personally but thats me. I like being able to self buff,heal via loh or umd, have really high saves and throw solid burst dps. Fighters do have a higher intim,more feats, and can achive a higher ac but not muc higher. Its about playstyle. If you take an ac tank on get ready for the grind. Because its a long one.

Azuarc
06-07-2010, 03:49 PM
You've done a bit of trying to talk the guy out of making an S&B build, but nobody's answered the question directly. What if he simply wants to make a character that uses a shield? Is that such a travesty? I realize the dynamics of the game don't incentivize shield usage very well, but in theory a person should find advantage in using a shield. I'm a mid-low level cleric right now and I'm still using a shield since I won't be able to dual wield with my build and I don't know that there's any 2H weapons that will work especially well for me. He isn't the only one that is interested in wanting to use a shield, even if it's considered sub-optimal.

I guess the real question becomes, HOW sub-optimal is it? Are you really getting no gain at all, or is it just very modest?

ArichValtrahn
06-07-2010, 03:58 PM
What if he simply wants to make a character that uses a shield? Is that such a travesty?

Using a shield is not a travesty.


this build will completely throw DPS out the window

THAT is a travesty.

Plutocracy
06-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Well, seeing how theres a MAX DPS builds out there. Im looking for a MAX S&B build, thats right this build will completely throw DPS out the window and focus almost exclusively on DEFENSE, including AC/DR/Saves and of course drawing lots and lots of aggro.

What are your thoughts on the class setup, skill setup, feat setup, race, equipment, and types of play style required to make such a tank. Thanks. :)


http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116482

Check out this one, I think it is exactly what you are looking for. It has high saves, AC, DR, and some DPS. Pure fighter may be best for sword and board, as it provides straight up DR with its prestige class while holding a shield (DR 6/- at level 18).

Not that great for solo play, has no self buffing really, but that makes it benefit the most from groups as every buff will stack with the "blank slate" pure fighter. One change I would make is start with 14 Con (taking 2 points from Wis).

lord_of_rage
06-07-2010, 04:10 PM
You've done a bit of trying to talk the guy out of making an S&B build, but nobody's answered the question directly. What if he simply wants to make a character that uses a shield? Is that such a travesty? I realize the dynamics of the game don't incentivize shield usage very well, but in theory a person should find advantage in using a shield. I'm a mid-low level cleric right now and I'm still using a shield since I won't be able to dual wield with my build and I don't know that there's any 2H weapons that will work especially well for me. He isn't the only one that is interested in wanting to use a shield, even if it's considered sub-optimal.

I guess the real question becomes, HOW sub-optimal is it? Are you really getting no gain at all, or is it just very modest?

There is nothing wrong with using a shield. There is a problem with not having a dps option. There are points where I will throw my shield on. When I am intiming a raid boss yes. But throwing dps out the window is a really bad idea.

Boromirs
06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
There is nothing wrong with using a shield. There is a problem with not having a dps option. There are points where I will throw my shield on. When I am intiming a raid boss yes. But throwing dps out the window is a really bad idea.

You can effectively kill anything with the bastard sword setup now (although it still needs a slight boost in DPS to make it really shine and DA too). Intimitanking is very useful for trash mobs, but not a neccesity to get through a dungeon. The main problem with DDO is that combat requires very very little strategy other then your skills used in FPS games. Almost all the skills like trip or stunning blow is not a big part of a player's tool bag. Its just too bad.

Plutocracy
06-14-2010, 10:52 AM
You can effectively kill anything with the bastard sword setup now (although it still needs a slight boost in DPS to make it really shine and DA too). Intimitanking is very useful for trash mobs, but not a neccesity to get through a dungeon. The main problem with DDO is that combat requires very very little strategy other then your skills used in FPS games. Almost all the skills like trip or stunning blow is not a big part of a player's tool bag. Its just too bad.

If you want to be a tactical fighter trip, stunning blow, and sunder are awesome. Straight up Kensei fighter is awesome for this, I have one and use improved trip and stunning blow constantly.

Tactics fighters are not primarily tanks, they are usually a sweet supplement to DPS as the kensei prestige class has great synergy with them.

Dwarf for axe and tactics enhancements. With powersurge active the trip and stunning blow lands all the time. Improved trip has a pretty short cooldown so you will be tripping things constantly.

Sabek
06-14-2010, 12:25 PM
To echo what the others have said, there is nothing at all wrong with S&B option. However, if it is your only option than you are doing a disservice to the rest of the people you group with.

I am a L20 Pure fighter stalwart defender build. I have a tower shield and use it when needed. With it and raid buffs I hit low 70's AC with a lot of work left to do. The simple fact of the matter is 95% of the time the shield is simply not needed.

If you do a fighter build with all of the extra feats available, and don't pick a DPS option as well, TWF or THF, you severely limiting your flexibility and your usefulness to a group.

There is simply not enough content in the game that rewards being S&B the majority of the time.

lord_of_rage
06-14-2010, 08:52 PM
You can effectively kill anything with the bastard sword setup now (although it still needs a slight boost in DPS to make it really shine and DA too). Intimitanking is very useful for trash mobs, but not a neccesity to get through a dungeon. The main problem with DDO is that combat requires very very little strategy other then your skills used in FPS games. Almost all the skills like trip or stunning blow is not a big part of a player's tool bag. Its just too bad.

Yes you can effectively kill things with s&b. But not nearly as fast as thf or twf. Which is why you need a dps option. If you dont have have one you are wasting a party slot. I rarely slap a shield on.because its more efficiant to kill mobs faster.Lets think twf with dual lit2 kopeshes vs lit2 and shield. Or 2 lit2 kopeshes twf vs a lit2 bastard sword and shield now or in update 5. The twf will still out dps the bastard sword in twf mode. Untill update 5 kopesh is better than the dwarven axe or bastard sword for S&B. Once update 5 drops Dwaven Axes used by dwarves will be king. Even then Id shift to a great axe or falchion for pure dps. I have a dwarf thf dos paladin all set and ready to go as soon as update 5 drops. Please untill you have a high lvl s&b tank dont try and assert that you are right. You havent had to gear one out or seen what they do in game.

Rise_of_Chaos
06-14-2010, 09:08 PM
A shield is very effective through the mid levels of the game. Beyond that, effective armour class scales upwards dramatically, to the point where in order to use one effectively, you have to know exactly what you are doing.

As a new player I wouldnt even think about high level content. If you are thinking about making a character who uses a shield and strategy, then by all means do it. Its a very viable option for a new player and actually an option that more people should consider when starting out.

What most of the people are trying to say is that at the higher lvls of the game, you are going to be alot less effective unless you are a person who has been playing for a long long time and knows exactly what you are doing.

lord_of_rage
06-14-2010, 10:45 PM
A shield is very effective through the mid levels of the game. Beyond that, effective armour class scales upwards dramatically, to the point where in order to use one effectively, you have to know exactly what you are doing.

As a new player I wouldnt even think about high level content. If you are thinking about making a character who uses a shield and strategy, then by all means do it. Its a very viable option for a new player and actually an option that more people should consider when starting out.

What most of the people are trying to say is that at the higher lvls of the game, you are going to be alot less effective unless you are a person who has been playing for a long long time and knows exactly what you are doing.


Its not even knowing what you are doing. The ac grind is a huge pain. To get endgame ac ie in the 80s it takes a huge time investment. Because you are looking for top end raid loot that rarely drops.You also need a dps option because there are points where your ac is not effective or you are not main tanking. So you need to contribute. So rolling an ac toon is great but build for both and youll be effective in all content not just some.

Rise_of_Chaos
06-15-2010, 04:12 AM
Its not even knowing what you are doing. The ac grind is a huge pain. To get endgame ac ie in the 80s it takes a huge time investment. Because you are looking for top end raid loot that rarely drops.You also need a dps option because there are points where your ac is not effective or you are not main tanking. So you need to contribute. So rolling an ac toon is great but build for both and youll be effective in all content not just some.


This guy is just starting the game and you are telling him about an 80 AC? And your a teacher? Do you try to explain calculus to a 1st grader?

This person is probably/hopefully in the furthest stretches of his mind thinking about lvl 8-10 stuff, where a shield is actually very helpful. Do you know what happens when you feed a starving person too much? They die. You have to give them a little bit at a time and nurse them to health slowly. This game is similar. These people are just starting the game. You can't start talking chinese to someone who doesn't know the language and expect them to understand.

Nysrock
06-15-2010, 04:31 AM
Well with the upcoming changes to dwarven axes (acting like thf) I am experimenting with a pure dwarf fighter Stalwart Defender with the THF feats. I figure to switch between greataxes and S&B with dwarven axe. Not sure how it will work out but fun to try.

lord_of_rage
06-15-2010, 04:48 PM
This guy is just starting the game and you are telling him about an 80 AC? And your a teacher? Do you try to explain calculus to a 1st grader?

This person is probably/hopefully in the furthest stretches of his mind thinking about lvl 8-10 stuff, where a shield is actually very helpful. Do you know what happens when you feed a starving person too much? They die. You have to give them a little bit at a time and nurse them to health slowly. This game is similar. These people are just starting the game. You can't start talking chinese to someone who doesn't know the language and expect them to understand.

As Ive said the ac grind is a painful process. Its one I rarely recomend to new players. Because the ac requirments are so high IE AC in the 80s. Hence why I put it out there. Because its a very difficult place to reach. Its possible but will take months as Ive previously stated.Why? Because you need rare raid loot drops, tons of ingrediants .... You need to be prepared for it. Again my point is every s&b character needs a dps option. Even in low to mid lvl content. IE up to lvl 12 or so depending on when you enter gianthold. You provide much more to a party when you are well rounded. Just running a shield and intiming doesnt always help. You need to be able to dps as well as run s&b.

Gobbothegreen
06-15-2010, 05:27 PM
This guy is just starting the game and you are telling him about an 80 AC? And your a teacher? Do you try to explain calculus to a 1st grader?

This person is probably/hopefully in the furthest stretches of his mind thinking about lvl 8-10 stuff, where a shield is actually very helpful. Do you know what happens when you feed a starving person too much? They die. You have to give them a little bit at a time and nurse them to health slowly. This game is similar. These people are just starting the game. You can't start talking chinese to someone who doesn't know the language and expect them to understand.


Please, can you just stop this annoying whinning. Not all players want to be left stranded without advice having no clue what they are doing wrong, this will just annoy them and make them leave the game becuase its to hard for them.
I know myself when i first started out this game i loved every little piece of advice i could get, it made me appreciate how helpful the community as a whole was. This is one of the reasons that has made me such an addict of this game now, if i hadnt gotten any advice i would probably have rage quit the game around lvl 9.

Short version: Get in your head that not everyone thinks its fun to die a millon times without knowing what they did wrong and then they get annoyed leave the game.



On topic: It is as previous posters ave said very hard to achieve enough ac and intimidate for it to work well and you should always have some kind of dps option. In most situations you are best of with a high dps/hp hate tank. Would recommend something easier to make until you got several capped toons to feed the snb some of thestuff needed.