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Excaliviolet
06-05-2010, 05:29 PM
Is this a good idea? Like a cleric with a lot of str with 2 lvls in barb? Could it be viable?

Discuss

BattleCircle
06-05-2010, 05:32 PM
Many clerics have a level of barb, its good for run speed more than one level is a waste as you can't cast if you are raged.

donotdirect1
06-05-2010, 05:40 PM
If you are looking for advice on a battle cleric swinging a two hander I personally don't feel a 2 barb splash would really do you justice.

Before you attempt to do a battle cleric take a good hard look at the cleric capstone.

Monk 2 gives you lots of nice things, evasion, two handed fighting feats (or power attack etc) but monk doesn't give you what you'd really want for a two handed fighting cleric, that being the proficiency with great axes (or whatever two hander).

Fighter 2 is a good way to go, probably better than barbarian for sheer melee ability. However just 1 barb gives you a nice movement increase, and faster movement on a cleric is always nice to help you avoid "XXX is out of range." Faster movement also means easier blade barrier kiting. But also note that the rage ability will be mostly useless as it will block spell casting.

Fighter and barbarian give you access to extra toughness. Monk gives faster movement, AC, and feats.

There are lots of things to weigh. No one can really peg it down for you.

My universal advice on builds is: "Find what your playstyle is and build around it."

Daggaz
06-05-2010, 05:50 PM
Totally not worth losing two or even one caster levels, let alone the capstone, for a speed boost and extremely limited rage. At 20th you can wear 30 percent striders so keeping up is not a problem unless you are racing the monks for some reason. And your arcane friends (or a pot) can hit you with a much better rage spell that gives you the same bonus for much longer than your puny lvl two kind, with the added bonus that you can still cast.

Fighter is great for the feats, but you had better put all points into str. Monk is also doable but much harder to pull off, tho to greater effect.

lazyninja81
06-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Is this a good idea? Like a cleric with a lot of str with 2 lvls in barb? Could it be viable?

Discuss

Depends on what your goal is. Do you want a battle cleric or a casting cleric with a bit more melee ability? For a battle cleric it'd be quite viable given the right stats. For a caster with a bit more melee ability just go with one level of fighter. What do you want to be able to do with the character?

Nezichiend
06-05-2010, 08:10 PM
Is this a good idea? Like a cleric with a lot of str with 2 lvls in barb? Could it be viable?

Discuss

You are a gimp if you make this build.

wolfy42
06-05-2010, 08:41 PM
Bah it's not that bad.

Don't go with 2 barbarian levels though, the second level is wasted. 1 barbarian level is fine.

You need at least 17 cleric levels to get level 9 spells, although honestly it's not the end of the world if you lose level 9 spells.

A 17 cleric/2 fighter/1 barbarian can work quite well though.

It gives you 2 bonus feats, martial weapon proficiency, fighter haste boost and +1 strength from fighter strength enhancement. It also gives you 10% barbarian movement speed boost and +2 damage from power attack boost. Works very well on a warforged cleric specced for battle.

Specced for battle means you concentrate on strength and con and just grab the min wisdom needed to cast whatever level spell you get up to. Warforged is nice because of the extra hp, extra damage from power attack bonuses, warforged immunities etc. You can also go dwarf for instance and it works pretty well but does a bit less damage (+2 to axe damage vs +6 from power attack bonus, no WF immuniteis but dwarven spell resistance and both get the same high hp).

So yeah go something like this:

WF cleric 17/fighter 2/barbarian 1

Stats:

18 str (16)
08 dex (00)
18 con (10)
08 int (00)
12 wis (06)
06 cha (00)

Drop con to 16 with a 28 point build and pump it back up later once you open up 32 point builds with a reincarnate.

To be honest if you have it available your better off in almost every way going with favored soul instead of cleric for this build (although the new radiant PRE might change that). Favored soul build would get all the nice WF bonuses and look like this:

WF Favored soul 18/fighter 1/barbarian 1

Main problem is you'll lose out on a TON by not getting your favored soul capstone bonus so everyone is going to scream that it's a crazy idea. You don't loose out on nearly as much as a cleric and you could get the whole radiant PRE going for extreme healing abilities while still having quite decent melee abilities as well.

Favored soul WF get greatsword proficiency (and latter bonuses) for free though. They don't need fighter or barbarian levels to help them and so you might want to just make a battle oriented favored soul character. You could even grab a barbarian level early on for your favored soul (for the movement speed and sprint boosts) and re-incarnate it out later I guess.

If your mainly looking to heal yourself and not others while still being able to pound enemies into the sand consider going with a warforged battle wizard. They can heal themselves with repair spells/reconstruct but gain tons of other advantages in melee over a cleric type (self haste/displacement/fireshield/heroism etc).

A great fun and VERY fast build is 17 wizard/2 rogue/1 barbarian. It gets all the spells, evasion, a high reflex save through intellecutal reflexes (int bonus to your reflex saves), fairly decent hp due to WF con and con enhancements + toughness and quite decent offense though spells like wall of fire and magic missile etc.

The whole cleric idea might be better as well once the new radiant PRE is out. I believe it increases healing significantly and allows you to group heal with your turns as well. That could work well with a battle cleric setup:)

joaofalcao
06-05-2010, 09:44 PM
Topic creator, please explain yourself.

What are the 2 levels of barbarian for? What do you want to achieve on it? Whats the point?


This is a complex game and players play the way they want, but regarding numbers, melee clerics are a really bad idea. Your dmg output will never be as good as a true barbarian. Your spellcasting will never be as good as a true cleric. What will you achieve? Fun? maybe, if thats your vibe. Good quest results? Whole party benefits? No sir, you will not deal good melee, your mana is gonna run out, and youre going to get frustrated.

sirgog
06-05-2010, 09:48 PM
Bah it's not that bad.

Don't go with 2 barbarian levels though, the second level is wasted. 1 barbarian level is fine.

You need at least 17 cleric levels to get level 9 spells, although honestly it's not the end of the world if you lose level 9 spells.


Agreed on the second Barb level offering little. However, level 9 spells (or at least one of them) are absolutely critical - Mass Heal is the best spell on your entire spell list, hands down, and is the main reason Quicken Spell is a must-have. True Resurrection is nice too, but not a game-breaker if you don't have it, and on this build Implosion is worthless, but Energy Drain will sometimes be useful if you want to support arcanes that are using Mass Hold Monster.

I'd personally consider this comparison:

Clr18/Ftr2 vs Clr18/Ftr1/Bbn1

18/2 gets 1 more feat, and access to a +1 Str enhancement. 18/1/1 gets 2 more hitpoints, access to an extremely situational Rage (not as worthless as it may sound - when out of mana and in a group where you aren't playing a healing role, you can get +4 Str and +40 hp that stack with everything) and the amazing +10% run speed.

Both options have their merits - I feel the +1 Str and feat are more potent than the run speed and rage, but it's not like one is clearly better than the other.

wolfy42
06-06-2010, 01:00 AM
I agree Sirgog:)

As far as level 9 spells not being that important I that is true if he isn't soloing everything:) I wouldn't suggest sacrificing level 9 spells unless your getting something very nice in return. You can actually lose up to 3 cleric levels and still get level 9 spells, so you could go with 17 cleric/2 fighter/1 barbarian.

2 level 9 spells is probably enough for a build like that and you get the bonus of fighter 2 (2 bonus feats) and barbarian 1 (movement speed is a big deal especially with sprint boost included). Main disadvantage is slowing down when you get spells by 3 levels as you level up, but you could just take the barbarian level initially and 1 fighter (for haste boost and 1 bonus feat) which isn't so bad.

wolfy42
06-06-2010, 01:06 AM
Topic creator, please explain yourself.

What are the 2 levels of barbarian for? What do you want to achieve on it? Whats the point?


This is a complex game and players play the way they want, but regarding numbers, melee clerics are a really bad idea. Your dmg output will never be as good as a true barbarian. Your spellcasting will never be as good as a true cleric. What will you achieve? Fun? maybe, if thats your vibe. Good quest results? Whole party benefits? No sir, you will not deal good melee, your mana is gonna run out, and youre going to get frustrated.

I'm sorry but melee clerics are not a bad idea. It's true that melee favored souls are generally better right now but that may be changing in the next update and clerics multiclass a bit better due to having 3 free levels (and still getting level 9 spells) versus only 2. Also it's really hard to multiclass a favored soul due to the large bonus from their capstone. Cleric capstone (At least for a melee cleric) isn't as big of a deal.

1 barbarian level for a melee specialized cleric is not going to make much of a difference at all in how the character plays. The character will get spells at the same time as a favored soul would (with 1 less CL) but move a bit faster, have sprint boosts, a bit more melee damage and the ability to rage once per rest. Adding in a fighter level or two would just increase your melee abilities while detracting a bit more from your cleric abilities. That is not a huge sacrifice for a melee oriented cleric though.

joaofalcao
06-07-2010, 12:53 PM
Mr Wolfy,

Regarding this melee cleric bad idea thing, I am curious of your opinion. When would be reasonable to get the barbarian lvls?

Lets say you get them at your first lvls, lvl 3 and 4 or so. That would mean that the cleric at lvl 9 would not have raise dead, or protection from elements, or slay living. At lvl 13, the cleric would not have mass protection from elements, wich saves lots and lots of mana and party damage.

On the other hand, you could get the 2 lvls of barbarian at lvl 19 and 20. Is that dmg output really worthy at those lvls?

Does that spell sacrificies mentioned are worthy in your opinion(think about quest needs and its lvls)? I mean, worthy to the whole party? Is that amount of extra dmg the barbarian lvls gets better than the extra sp and spells? Is that your opinion?

When I get my cleric into battle, I try to make my melee more worthy in form of weapon effects. Paralyzing, vorpal, ranged weapon effects. After all, the dmg is not going to make much of a difference, the effects are. Still, a slay living on an enemy caster is much better than the melee DPS most of the times(specially enemy casters that can heal themselves).

Regarding numbers, the best battlecleric is the offensive caster. Slay living, destruction, etc are way better than the 2 extra lvls of barbarian(not to mention the sp loss the barbarian gets you).

For last, I need to lvl with you guys. You may sense now that my points are moved by personnal experience, but I think it may shed some light to this whole cleric melee thing.
There was this melee cleric once in a Gianthold Tor partying with me and my wife. He was always standing in front of the battle, getting prone from cometfalls, busy meleeing giants, etc. He almost never healed the party members; everyone died once in a while, except, of course, himself. His body count was minimal.
What was that melee thing worth? Nothing but personal gain. The party did not benefit, that wasnt fun for anyone, I bet not even for the cleric himself.

And while a cleric can be wise to choose whom he does melee, this personal experience of my own intends to shows 2 things.

1 - Clerics are important to the whole party. Meleeing often is dangerous to the party as a whole and the extra dmg output is not worth it.

2 - Melee clerics are often offensive minded individuals, who like to swing weapons and face dangerous creatures. I am sorry, but this isnt a class for offensive minded individuals. Cleric requires an more team based mind. Centered, selfish or offensive individuals are better getting a true DPS class.

Overall, thats what I got to say. Regarding numbers, melee isnt for clerics. Mr Wolfy, what do you agree and what you doesnt agree?

JollySwagMan
06-07-2010, 03:42 PM
Lets say you get them at your first lvls, lvl 3 and 4 or so. That would mean that the cleric at lvl 9 would not have raise dead, or protection from elements, or slay living. At lvl 13, the cleric would not have mass protection from elements, wich saves lots and lots of mana and party damage.
...

And while a cleric can be wise to choose whom he does melee, this personal experience of my own intends to shows 2 things.

1 - Clerics are important to the whole party. Meleeing often is dangerous to the party as a whole and the extra dmg output is not worth it.

2 - Melee clerics are often offensive minded individuals, who like to swing weapons and face dangerous creatures. I am sorry, but this isnt a class for offensive minded individuals. Cleric requires an more team based mind. Centered, selfish or offensive individuals are better getting a true DPS class.


Unfortunately, many 'battleclerics' that you may encounter in PUGs are not sufficiently prepared for the role. When splashing with a Cleric you need to invest into scrolls, wands, and possibly mana pots. And like a pure Cleric your healing will be more efficient if you use Devotion/Potency/Ardor (preferably Ardor) boosts.

The spells you mentioned can be cast from scrolls. However a splashed cleric may have a tough time healing WF melees from Heal scrolls at the level one would normally have Heal. Aside from healing WF, what hurts is missing BB early. However if you're splashing Fighter or Monk the free Toughness will help you grab a Metamagic feat such as Quicken/Maximise/Emp Healing earlier.

1. If the Cleric is incapable of healing others while fighting monsters themselves, then yes, they are endangering the party. However, some melee Clerics will actually take less damage than their pure melee counterparts (see: Clonk), in which case it may be more efficient for the Cleric to grab aggro, then have a melee DPS character flank the mob and dispatch it quickly.

2. This really depends upon the party makeup. It is true that playing a Cleric requires careful monitoring of your group, however, you seem to be advocating that a team-minded Cleric should focus on herding a group of killcount-focused DPS characters. That's all fine and kosher, provided that healbotting is more efficient than offensive casting, or that you are able to get your crowd control in before the group takes unnecessary damage. A party full of 'centered, selfish or offensive' individuals can do just fine if everybody knows the content and how to stay alive. In parties where such self-sufficiency isn't expected of everyone, the team-minded Cleric may have to set the pace of the group, such as designating a specific tank, having someone on mage duty, etc. In other words, ensuring that the whole party is playing with a team-focused mindset.