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wax_on_wax_off
06-05-2010, 05:31 AM
PVP is a sad affair in DDO at the moment simply because D&D mechanics are primarily PvE. Therefore, any pvp idea which could ever be successful has to take into account this fact. The idea of a DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients) inspired map which combines PvE and PvP into 1 neat little package is perfect due to the simple fact that classes in DDO will never be balanced in a PvP sense but rather can be balanced in a PvE sense (which is the priority in DotA).

For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

Furthermore;
a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.

There is no need to balance the game for this or make any adjustments whatsoever. If the map was implemented it would be hugely fun and exciting as is.

However, there is 2 map specific balances that should be implemented to balance classes.
I. Spawn Points and Defensive Positions should be immune to piercing (specifically ranged) and magical damage to provide some value to melee classes.
II. Friendly creeps should be vulnerable to friendly fire (force archers and AoE spell casters to be careful where they fire their spells, again to provide more value to melee classes).

Finally one global change which is to allow stealth to work in PvP to provide value to stealthy classes.

Sell the quest as a premium adventure pack. Many wilderness areas could be used as a template upon which base and spawn points could be applied limiting the actual effort needed to implement the map.

And done, finished, finito.


After this, some thought could be given to strategies of progression over the course of the quest (perhaps your character can level over a preset path), equipment (perhaps strip everyone of gear), relative power of difference classes at different levels (casters tend to own more at higher levels) and possible rewards (guild renown?).

I suspect that items stripped, max level 10 would be about perfect for maximising skill and entertainment.

Zippo
06-05-2010, 06:12 AM
PVP is a sad affair in DDO at the moment simply because D&D mechanics aren't built for it. D&D is more PVE and this might be a solution to everyones desire for a little solid PVP action as it combines PVE and PVP.

PvP was a mere after thought for DDO, as such it should just remain as is. Most any of these "great ideas" that most people have in regards too it would lead to a major restructuring of game balance that would seriously disrupt and abuse the actual base game mechanics.

wax_on_wax_off
06-06-2010, 05:46 PM
PvP was a mere after thought for DDO, as such it should just remain as is. Most any of these "great ideas" that most people have in regards too it would lead to a major restructuring of game balance that would seriously disrupt and abuse the actual base game mechanics.

Why should PVP remain as a neglected afterthought? How would my suggestion lead to a restructuring of the game balance? I imagine a lot of the motivation for the projects that Turbine chooses to invest time in is about getting bang for your buck. If a quest can be made that doesn't need to be large or complicated and yet generates interest and has people playing it then isn't that what is important?

It would be a PVP map and as such probably wouldn't offer any rewards besides the enjoyment of playing it. For this reason i fail to see how it could "seriously disrupt and abuse the actual base game mechanics". Obviously the classes aren't "balanced" but this is dungeons and dragons, it's not meant to be.

It would be up to the players who choose to partake in it to balance it themselves and they could do this by setting the maximum level in the 5-15 range. Somewhere here most classes are somewhat balanced (at least no slaying arrows). And it has to be remembered that on a map like this PVE is half the battle still which is what DDO is about.

This idea has potential simply because of the absolutely huge player base that DOTA (and DOTA spinoffs like LoL and HoN) has and more players means more money for Turbine which (hopefully) means more content for us.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-06-2010, 05:49 PM
People already complain about the classes not being balanced for PvP, so the more PvP you do the more they will whine.

Additionally PvP and PvE are zero sum games...we only have so much dev time, and a minute on PvP is a minute not on PvE.

Concentrate on the main game, PvE, we need high level quests, spells, feats, even cosmetics (since those make them money), and bug fixes.

DoctorWhofan
06-06-2010, 05:53 PM
Why should PVP remain as a neglected afterthought?




This idea has potential simply because of the absolutely huge player base that DOTA (and DOTA spinoffs like LoL and HoN) has and more players means more money for Turbine which (hopefully) means more content for us.

Because it WAS an afterthought. this game did not START with PvP, that was added 2 years later. So the game was built without PvP in mind. So yeah, an afterthought.

Outside not knowing what the acronym stands for, as Zippo and Lorian have said: the classes need serious rebalancing AND takes time away from PvE development.

Memnir
06-06-2010, 08:33 PM
I don't know... it'd be pretty hard to get people out of the massive lines waiting to get into the instanced PvP games we have now to try out another instanced PvP style...

wax_on_wax_off
06-08-2010, 03:56 PM
im not suggesting devs spend anymore time on balancing PVP that what they do already. It's an impossibility and its just a fact that people will always wine that "my character doesn't win" in pvp. They'll get over it.

I'm suggesting something that will bring some depth, diversion and fun to DDO with easy, player driven mechanisms for balancing which will satisfy some DDO players desire for meaningful PVP and bring a new element to an MMO that hasn't existed before which could make it awesome, at least for a particular audience. And new players means more money means more game development.

Don't be so negative, just like some people don't undead heavy content so some people wouldn't like this, but DDO should try to cater to as many different audiences as possible because simply a larger player base means a better game for all of us.

rest
06-08-2010, 04:00 PM
Now that you can buy training dummies for your guild airship, I think they should completely remove PvP from DDO and be done with it.

It boggles my mind that people come here knowing that PvP in DDO is an absolute after thought, and still ***** and complain about it. If you're so into PvP why not play a more PvP-centric game? I don't play games that are PvP heavy. And if I did, I wouldn't be trolling the forums trying to get the game changed to a more PvE style. I'd play what appeals to me and not play what doesn't. Seems pretty simple to me.

wax_on_wax_off
06-10-2010, 02:19 PM
And if I did, I wouldn't be trolling the forums trying to get the game changed to a more PvE style. I'd play what appeals to me and not play what doesn't. Seems pretty simple to me.

I think it's a bit rude to suggest that I'm "trolling the forums". I've made 1 suggestion in the suggestions section. This might surprise you but not everybody plays DDO for the exact same reasons that you play DDO. I play DDO because I'm a fan of D&D, ive played since i was 10, which makes 13 years. I played BG I&2, NWN, NWN2. Something that all of these had in common to a greater or sometimes much lesser degree was some capacity for PVP.
I also play DDO because i like the skill that it takes to be good at playing my character. A good combination of knowledge, multitasking, situational awareness and twitch. This is something reasonably unique to DDO to my knowledge. In my opinion it is these very elements that make it suitable for a PVP game.

DOTA stands for defense of the ancients a custom map that was made for warcraft III. Ironic, hey, considering my suggestion? A quick perusal of http://www.xfire.com/ will show you that 2 of the top 10 games being played right now, LoL and HoN, are DOTA spinoff games, and on there too, but who knows what percentage of wc3 players are playing DOTA (i think it is considerable though).

I hear 2 arguments over and over which i have done my best to answer constructively but they seem to fall on deaf ears.
1. Character classes are not balanced for PVP. Well, d'uh. D&D isn't supposed to be balanced. The way to approach the problem is with equal parts indifference and player driven balancing. If people want to be competitive about such a map then let them figure out the level range that classes are balanced at and set game constraints accordingly. This leaves room for about 1% of the balancing power of such a scenario to the developers.
2. Time spent on PVP is time not spent on PVE. A glance at xfire tells me that there is roughly 10 times the amount of players playing DOTA style games than what there is DDO. And you should see these games, warcraft III does not have the greatest graphics around and the offshoots did nothing to improve them. If even 1% of those players were or are fans of D&D, DDO or a prettier game and came and played a DOTA styled DDO pvp scenario then it would increase the player base of DDO by 10%. Which translates into more money to spend on development. Put half of that money towards continued development of PVP and half of it towards development of PVE and what do you know the game is better for everybody.

A final footnote. One option to balance the game would be to make everybody, foes, friends and possibly other heroes, vulnerable to everyones attacks. Wizards and archers don't look so crash hot a choice when they have to be so careful not to wipe out the friendlies when they are going after the enemy.

Lewendriel
02-15-2012, 04:20 AM
2. Time spent on PVP is time not spent on PVE. A glance at xfire tells me that there is roughly 10 times the amount of players playing DOTA style games than what there is DDO. And you should see these games, warcraft III does not have the greatest graphics around and the offshoots did nothing to improve them. If even 1% of those players were or are fans of D&D, DDO or a prettier game and came and played a DOTA styled DDO pvp scenario then it would increase the player base of DDO by 10%. Which translates into more money to spend on development. Put half of that money towards continued development of PVP and half of it towards development of PVE and what do you know the game is better for everybody.

A final footnote. One option to balance the game would be to make everybody, foes, friends and possibly other heroes, vulnerable to everyones attacks. Wizards and archers don't look so crash hot a choice when they have to be so careful not to wipe out the friendlies when they are going after the enemy.
This could attract more players to DDO which equals more income.

I cannot see the arguments why pvp should not be a part of DDO as well. Yes it take times to develop but as OP stated - it could perhaps attract more players and I for one are in a dead end as the end game in DDO is basically non existing except endless epic runs in same places or favor grinding. Would be nice to have something else to do. Also - if pvp was an afterthought why at all introduce the pits ?

What I would like to see is more diversity in the game. Various battlegrounds for one. Professions and crafting skills as another, like where you gather materials from the world (mining iron) to make armors (blacksmithing) as an example.

InsanityIsYourFriend
02-15-2012, 12:31 PM
PERSONALLY i think this game is meant to be PVE, but a little pvp here and there would not be so bad, I am sure that in D&D if someone were to do LOB, other's could just as easily be hired to fight off the attacking adventurers (i mean seriously you think a barb cares who he fights for or does he care about fighting and what he gets AFTER the fight) but as we are all good or neutral we should not be fightning amongst ourselves all the time, a tavern brawl normal, a thief stealing something and getting their head bashed in normal, adventurers warring on the streets due to the simple fact that they are bored not so normal

sure a little more PVP would be okay, but keep the focus of the game PVE based and the balancing the same (OF COURSE that level 20 sorc looked at you and you died, if it was lower levels before they got too many of their powers they woulda crapped their pants at the thought of havening to fight that beastly half orc barbarian, now not so much)

Cam_Neely
02-15-2012, 12:37 PM
Ugh, edited out. Necros are lame

dragonhighlord1
02-15-2012, 01:03 PM
I am not a pvp person at all, but this would only add to the game, which imo will be growing even more then when it went f2p, when it adds level 25 cap and forgotten realms. To keep the most players after the intial rush adding more pvp options would def be a really good thing financially for ddo. Which is def the goal, note:(+3 stat tomes, buying crafting ingrediants with points..) they want to make money.

DDO will no longer be a niche game, and for all those, like myself, that do not like pvp, we dont have to do it. It will be here soon like it or not. Look at this way, the large influx of new players(forgotten realms) returning players(cap raise) they will be adding more devs.

Uska
02-15-2012, 01:11 PM
This could attract more players to DDO which equals more income.

I cannot see the arguments why pvp should not be a part of DDO as well. Yes it take times to develop but as OP stated - it could perhaps attract more players and I for one are in a dead end as the end game in DDO is basically non existing except endless epic runs in same places or favor grinding. Would be nice to have something else to do. Also - if pvp was an afterthought why at all introduce the pits ?

What I would like to see is more diversity in the game. Various battlegrounds for one. Professions and crafting skills as another, like where you gather materials from the world (mining iron) to make armors (blacksmithing) as an example.

There are a lot of people here who would leave if pvp became ore important and no thanks to world resource gathering if I wanted that I would go play a game that had it.

NO DEV time to pvp

Uska
02-15-2012, 01:14 PM
if I want that style of map I will go play unreal tourney

brightfang
02-15-2012, 01:17 PM
/signed. Turbine already has a system rather like this with PvE and PvP mixed together in a LOTRO zone called Ettenmoors, so I they could program it into DDO. It would also be a GREAT way to make the expansion sell by offering more zones for it to expansion holders for various levels such as Shavarath Devils vs Demons and Underdark battles. Some monsters would have ridiculous DR and others would have Magic Immunity forcing melee and casters to work together.

Delssar
02-15-2012, 01:19 PM
This could attract more players to DDO which equals more income.

I cannot see the arguments why pvp should not be a part of DDO as well. Yes it take times to develop but as OP stated - it could perhaps attract more players and I for one are in a dead end as the end game in DDO is basically non existing except endless epic runs in same places or favor grinding. Would be nice to have something else to do. Also - if pvp was an afterthought why at all introduce the pits ?

What I would like to see is more diversity in the game. Various battlegrounds for one. Professions and crafting skills as another, like where you gather materials from the world (mining iron) to make armors (blacksmithing) as an example.

So you want to turn it into a WoW clone? No Thank You. If that happens im sure most people will quit paying all together.

Uska
02-15-2012, 01:22 PM
So you want to turn it into a WoW clone? No Thank You. If that happens im sure most people will quit paying all together.

This what I dont want

madmaxhunter
02-15-2012, 01:26 PM
A sincere request to the mods: Please add the OP date to the threads so I can stop walking into these necros? Thanks.

wax_on_wax_off
02-15-2012, 02:42 PM
A sincere request to the mods: Please add the OP date to the threads so I can stop walking into these necros? Thanks.

Sure it's a necro but it's one that I'm ok with. DDO could still use some sort of pvp that suits the game and a pvp map that is centered around pve still seems like the best solution. Existing explorer areas could be used (and some are so nice that it is a shame that they don't see more play time) so there is little developer time involved and it could be sold as a map pack to raise revenue for more content - everyone wins.

Robert4818
02-15-2012, 02:46 PM
PVP is a sad affair in DDO at the moment simply because D&D mechanics are primarily PvE. Therefore, any pvp idea which could ever be successful has to take into account this fact. The idea of a DotA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_Ancients) inspired map which combines PvE and PvP into 1 neat little package is perfect due to the simple fact that classes in DDO will never be balanced in a PvP sense but rather can be balanced in a PvE sense (which is the priority in DotA).

For anyone unfamiliar with DotA;
1. Each team has a home base which they must protect.
2. From destroyable spawn points (near the home base) creeps (trash mobs) spawn and go on 1 of 3 preset paths towards the enemy base and encounter opposing creeps where they fight it out.
3. The role of the players is to influence the outcome of these skirmishes and push the line towards the opposing teams base to hopefully destroy their base.

Furthermore;
a. There are defensive positions which must be destroyed to continue (turrets).
b. It is possible to upgrade the creeps, prevent opposing trash creeps from spawning by destroying the spawn point or spawn boss creeps.
c. There are neutral creeps which can be destroyed for sweet loots/upgrades/bonuses.

There is no need to balance the game for this or make any adjustments whatsoever. If the map was implemented it would be hugely fun and exciting as is.

However, there is 2 map specific balances that should be implemented to balance classes.
I. Spawn Points and Defensive Positions should be immune to piercing (specifically ranged) and magical damage to provide some value to melee classes.
II. Friendly creeps should be vulnerable to friendly fire (force archers and AoE spell casters to be careful where they fire their spells, again to provide more value to melee classes).

Finally one global change which is to allow stealth to work in PvP to provide value to stealthy classes.

Sell the quest as a premium adventure pack. Many wilderness areas could be used as a template upon which base and spawn points could be applied limiting the actual effort needed to implement the map.

And done, finished, finito.


After this, some thought could be given to strategies of progression over the course of the quest (perhaps your character can level over a preset path), equipment (perhaps strip everyone of gear), relative power of difference classes at different levels (casters tend to own more at higher levels) and possible rewards (guild renown?).

I suspect that items stripped, max level 10 would be about perfect for maximising skill and entertainment.

I'd rather have some sort of team v team missions that don't rely on the players actually fighting each other. Instead they are competing in some other way. If there's fighting, its between players and monsters in a dungeon, and perhaps those monsters were spawned by the other team.

wax_on_wax_off
02-15-2012, 02:54 PM
I'd rather have some sort of team v team missions that don't rely on the players actually fighting each other. Instead they are competing in some other way. If there's fighting, its between players and monsters in a dungeon, and perhaps those monsters were spawned by the other team.

That sounds like a fair bit of work to come up with and implement such a concept - which isn't a bad one mind you.

Ill keep coming back to the dota idea though as all that is needed to implement it is a few structures on an explorer with some mob spawn points and pathing and that's about it.

Lewendriel
02-16-2012, 12:38 AM
I am not a pvp person at all, but this would only add to the game, which imo will be growing even more then when it went f2p, when it adds level 25 cap and forgotten realms. To keep the most players after the intial rush adding more pvp options would def be a really good thing financially for ddo. Which is def the goal, note+3 stat tomes, buying crafting ingrediants with points..) they want to make money.

DDO will no longer be a niche game, and for all those, like myself, that do not like pvp, we dont have to do it. It will be here soon like it or not. Look at this way, the large influx of new players(forgotten realms) returning players(cap raise) they will be adding more devs.
This!


There are a lot of people here who would leave if pvp became ore important
Who said more important !?!? I did not. I was saying add some diversity to the end game. And again - You DONT have to do PVP.


So you want to turn it into a WoW clone? No Thank You. If that happens im sure most people will quit paying all together.
Ehh .. no. I want diversity in the end game. Gathering profs was just an example like adding more PVP as suggested by OP.

I dont want PVP as in general form, where players are fighting directly as that would end up in a path with redesigning enhancements, gear and the whole shabang. I dont want capture the flag or death matches. But something like

I'd rather have some sort of team v team missions that don't rely on the players actually fighting each other. Instead they are competing in some other way. If there's fighting, its between players and monsters in a dungeon, and perhaps those monsters were spawned by the other team.
I cannot see why this is so 'dangerous' and some are afraid of it ? Is all of you really happy with the end game content ? Doing the same epic runs over and over again in hope to get the scroll that has 0,1% of dropping and after 2 years of grinding for it, you still dont have it ? You dont find farming Shroud over and over again getting real old, real fast ?

I know DDO is dungeons & dragons and therefore main prior is ofc dungeons, but that does not mean to get stuck in one path. That's all I am saying.

TekkenDevil
02-16-2012, 12:46 AM
Kobolds for minions!

licho
02-17-2012, 08:56 AM
Not signed, maybe for other game.
Reasons:
- So far even if inbalance exist i do not care, since in worse scenerio i have some good piking time. The PvP will show up all inbalances in the game.
- I would rather see a new quest than single pvp map.
- The DOTA games have the flawn that they are constantly patched (balance issuses) so once the Devs will start it they will need to support it all the time, or it will be unusable.