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nbennet
06-04-2010, 11:45 AM
The Master's Touch spell is now "Enchants the items currently equipped in your left and right hands to grants their wielder proficiency if the items are simple or martial weapons or shields. This enchantment lasts one minute per caster level."

I don't see this being discussed elsewhere:
Since MT will now "buff the items" can someone please tell me if the buff is lost when you switch weapons?

As a 20 TWF "battle-bard" who switches weapons frequently (vorpal battleaxes, collection of greater banes, pos-pos warhammers for undead etc.) I use Master's Touch extensively. If the buff has to be reapplied on switching, my character's effectiveness took a serious hit.

Please confirm for me how this is working on Lama? Is it possible to buff yourself for the weapon types you anticipate using in a quest? (e.g. switch to axes > apply MT > switch to scimmies > apply MT) ...or was the spell gutted?

Cyr
06-04-2010, 11:48 AM
Very curious about this myself as my bard normally switches in and out tactical weapons so the rest of the party does not have to. This would seriously be a big nerf to Master's Touch if it only worked on the weapon you were holding when the spell was cast. Less lag is great, but making the spell almost useless as the fix is unacceptable.

Impaqt
06-04-2010, 11:51 AM
I hate this change. MT now seems to enchant the weapon you are weilding rather than the person carrying it.

the weapon stays enchanted... so if you switch back to it, its still touched. But if you use multiple weapons, your boned.


Terrible price to pay for fixing the lag this spell caused. Gimme back the lag.

Zenako
06-04-2010, 11:55 AM
How about it just add the Master Touch effect to everything in your hands or backpack. We seem to be seeing that adding the effect to the weapon is a lot lower overhead than altering the properties of the character. (Could even put a level = number of weapons enchanted limit on it for example and use the same find order that routines like Lock picking does and grab from page 1 thru page 5 in that order.

At cap, a bard would get almost an entire bank page enchanted. (or modifiy the spell to 2+level weapons, meaning at cap you get both hands and the entire first page in your backpack if you have that many with you.)

Zenako
06-04-2010, 11:57 AM
OR! use some of the tech used for Arcane Archers when they create arrows.

THose arrows last until you log out. Make Masters Touch last until you log out, so someone could for example enchant all their weapons after logging in and not have to recast until the next time they log in. Keep the 5 minute offline duration for not resetting like many other effects so if you get disconnected you are not boned right away.

Anthios888
06-04-2010, 12:00 PM
OR! use some of the tech used for Arcane Archers when they create arrows.

THose arrows last until you log out. Make Masters Touch last until you log out, so someone could for example enchant all their weapons after logging in and not have to recast until the next time they log in. Keep the 5 minute offline duration for not resetting like many other effects so if you get disconnected you are not boned right away.

This.

A change to Master's Touch was badly needed, but the old 60 seconds of casting it shouldn't be replaced with another 60 seconds as I cast it on the greensteel, the sos, the xuum, the vorpal, the greater undead bane, the greater construct bane, and the weighted.

Aerendil
06-04-2010, 12:01 PM
OR! use some of the tech used for Arcane Archers when they create arrows.

THose arrows last until you log out. Make Masters Touch last until you log out, so someone could for example enchant all their weapons after logging in and not have to recast until the next time they log in. Keep the 5 minute offline duration for not resetting like many other effects so if you get disconnected you are not boned right away.

That's still asking a lot of the players, though, to force them to enchant their entire inventory of weaponry (and as we all know, we carry a LOT of sets of weapons in DDO).

Granted I'm not a tech guy by any means, but I can't see programming a temporary martial weaponry access to Bards while the spell is on being such a big deal.
If you take a level with a class with martial access, it doesn't hog your system resources for a minute to recognize all of the weapons you can now use; so why does it do this with this particular spell?

Zenako
06-04-2010, 12:08 PM
That's still asking a lot of the players, though, to force them to enchant their entire inventory of weaponry (and as we all know, we carry a LOT of sets of weapons in DDO).

Granted I'm not a tech guy by any means, but I can't see programming a temporary martial weaponry access to Bards while the spell is on being such a big deal.
If you take a level with a class with martial access, it doesn't hog your system resources for a minute to recognize all of the weapons you can now use; so why does it do this with this particular spell?

The problem right now appears to be that the spell is changing the effective FEATS of the character giving them weapon procifiency in each and every type of weapon in the game and trying to dynamically update your character attributes. Even when doing leveling up at a trainer there is lag as the game works to sync those changes with the master database. Since Masters Touch covers ALL weapons that is like adding scores of Feats all at once. Changing the weapons does not seem like it involves as much overhead.

Another way might be to grab a pull down menu when you cast it to give you a selection. Masters Touch: Dwarven Axe for example would only affect you for Dwarven Axes, not every weapon in the book. Follow up with Masters Touch:Heavy Repeater and you might well have 90% of the weapons you have on hand.

gwlech
06-04-2010, 12:08 PM
No MT lag is a good thing, however...

I like to continuously switch weapons around on my casters (my sorcerer is approaching well around 20 odd sets), needing to recast the spell each time I swap weapons will be a pain I am sure.

Limey
06-04-2010, 12:12 PM
Sigh, not this "method" of fixing lag again? You can imagine if they ran a race car team...

Driver after test run: "Hey guys, great car. I did notice a little instability at high speeds though, maybe you could have a look at that?"

Turbine Chief Engineer: "No problem, I can adjust the rev limiter to kick in earlier to reduce top speed"

Narzic
06-04-2010, 12:15 PM
How about it just add the Master Touch effect to everything in your hands or backpack. We seem to be seeing that adding the effect to the weapon is a lot lower overhead than altering the properties of the character. (Could even put a level = number of weapons enchanted limit on it for example and use the same find order that routines like Lock picking does and grab from page 1 thru page 5 in that order.

At cap, a bard would get almost an entire bank page enchanted. (or modifiy the spell to 2+level weapons, meaning at cap you get both hands and the entire first page in your backpack if you have that many with you.)

how about rather then enchanting things in your backpack, it enchants your weapons sets starting from the first and going to the last. the number of sets would be dependent on your level etc.

this would affect the weapons you are carrying(since they likely are a set) as well as the most common sets you use(since they would probably be towards the front).

rimble
06-04-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't think this is just a lag fix, I think it's a purposeful nerf too.

Getting Martial Weapon Proficiency is pretty darn powerful for a spell. I believe they're limiting its scope on purpose.

Part of it is just that granting full Martial Weapon Proficiency via a low-level spell is just too powerful, making it too easy for Arcanes to bypass a purposefully imposed class restriction. I'm sure people would be pretty upset if Bards could cast Evasion.

Second, now they can add Martial Weapon Proficiency at Warchanter II or III. They should have done that in coordination with this change to mitigate the negative impact.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Yikes... but I want to be able to switch weapons on my WC... that's why we have weapon set and hotbars.

Just think of VoD as an example. In there most groups move between DPS weapons for the orthons and harry and vorpals for the trash devils. So I'd have to cast the spell twice before we started?

And what about running new stuff where you don't know what weapon you will need? I need to be able to switch between DPS, vorpal, para, disruptor, smiter, etc, as needed. I'm supposed to cast a spell each time I change weapons? :eek:

Um...I don't think that's workable.

Valindria
06-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Maybe I am confused but this sound BETTER then original. If it enchants the items is it like paladin holy sword and you cast it and anytime you switch to that weapon it is good to go? Granted if you use a ton of weapon types it could be a pain... Hmm I am not sure what I think now.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Second, now they can add Martial Weapon Proficiency at Warchanter II or III. They should have done that in coordination with this change to mitigate the negative impact.

Level 12 or 18 is too late.

IF they wanted to add it to WC1 it would be more reasonable, but still...

Borror0
06-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Here is a proposal to fix the problem, without really altering the way it plays:
1. Type the penalty a bonus type named proficiency.
2. Change every proficiency feat to give a +0 proficiency bonus when using that weapon type.
3. Make Master Touch grant the same +0 bonus when using a simple of martial weapon.

Based on DDO's stacking rules, the highest bonus applies. In this case, a +0 is greater than -4 so it override the -4.

If a penalty can't be made to overlap with a bonus, how about:
1. Make non-proficiency the base. (Read: Give everyone -4.)
2. Change every proficiency feat to give a +4 proficiency bonus when using that weapon type, therefore nullifying the aforementioned penalty.
3. Make Master Touch grant the same +4 bonus when using a simple of martial weapon.

That way, the lag is addressed since the feats are not added to the character sheet yet it works even if you swap weapon. No?

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Maybe I am confused but this sound BETTER then original. If it enchants the items is it like paladin holy sword and you cast it and anytime you switch to that weapon it is good to go? Granted if you use a ton of weapon types it could be a pain... Hmm I am not sure what I think now.

How is that better. Right now I cast it ONCE after resting and I'm good to the next shrine. Now i cast it once and ONE weapon is ready. I'm not seeing any win here.

LunaCee
06-04-2010, 12:25 PM
Just have it at first level only effect what is in your hand and in what weapons are in weapon set 1. For every additional level it will effect another of your weapon slots. Fixed no?

The only lag you will suffer is entirely on your own head. If you only have 4-5 sets you swap between it shouldn't be that bad. If you have 20 sets of dual-wield weapons, well that is your own issue.

Do'Urden
06-04-2010, 12:29 PM
I hate this change. MT now seems to enchant the weapon you are weilding rather than the person carrying it.

the weapon stays enchanted... so if you switch back to it, its still touched. But if you use multiple weapons, your boned.


Terrible price to pay for fixing the lag this spell caused. Gimme back the lag.

:( Do the people who make these changes even play the game?

Fix it or put it back the way it was please.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 12:29 PM
Just have it at first level only effect what is in your hand and in what weapons are in weapon set 1. For every additional level it will effect another of your weapon slots. Fixed no?

The only lag you will suffer is entirely on your own head. If you only have 4-5 sets you swap between it shouldn't be that bad. If you have 20 sets of dual-wield weapons, well that is your own issue.

You don't play a melee do you?

Even at L1 a good melee has more than 1 weapon.

By mid levels if you only have 4-5 weapons you are a drain on your parties.

And only the first 5 slots? So we take 2 minutes to rearrange inventory every time we shrine?

Narzic
06-04-2010, 12:33 PM
You don't play a melee do you?

Even at L1 a good melee has more than 1 weapon.

By mid levels if you only have 4-5 weapons you are a drain on your parties.

And only the first 5 slots? So we take 2 minutes to rearrange inventory every time we shrine?

i think perhaps he's talking about my idea for the weapon sets. so you wouldn't have to worry about your inventory at all.

oweieie
06-04-2010, 12:33 PM
I don't see how adding a bunch of feats when you cast the spell could lag things like it does, but apparently they've coded things at a low level to be that inefficient. So their crappy system of having a feat for every weapon but not having a feat for all martial + simple weapons bites them on the ass. So now instead of simply fixing the underlying problem, or adding a proper feat that handles multiple weapons they instead go for the slightly easier kludge of jiggering the spell around into something it shouldn't be. Brilliant.

Devonian
06-04-2010, 12:34 PM
Well MrCrane, we had a good run, and I thought you might see the wiz cap, but, no longer. Fighter dip it is.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 12:36 PM
i think perhaps he's talking about my idea for the weapon sets. so you wouldn't have to worry about your inventory at all.

If adding 20 feats lags, I'm not sure enchanting 40 weapons (20 sets) would be faster.

Also wouldn't help at all with TH weapons that people don't make sets for.

Khimberlhyte
06-04-2010, 12:45 PM
This places another character of mine at risk of gathering dust after Update 5. The nerf to TWF has me concerned about my rogue. If Master's Touch will only affect the weapon in your hands at the time of casting, I will lose much of the enjoyment from playing my WF wizard. He is just at level 6, but already has 5-10 different weapons, and switches between them constantly.

This WF wiz is the only reason I paid for warforged in the first place last month. Based on how I play him (usually solo, buff at entrance to melee trash, save SP for bosses or large groups), I know that I will not enjoy playing him as much if Master's Touch gets nerfed. I only have 4 characters that I enjoy playing, and half of them may become dead to me after update 5. Good thing I didn't take TWF on my gimped bard or my cleric.

I sold a months worth of loot from my highest level character to twink out my rogue and wizard, not to mention many hours running around on my bard selling and buying from the AH and brokers. That is nothing like the grind people did for epic SSR or SoS, but it still matters to me.

I work in management in local government. If we changed our bylaws the way that Turbine changes the rules in this game, we would be taken to court by every landowner and developer in the region. Any time we make a change to our bylaws and policies, we have to think long and hard about the consequences and impacts. If a change causes harm or increases costs to our customers, we have to be able to justify the inconvenience, disruption, or harm. A few seconds of jitter when casting a spell is not a big deal. Making the spell nearly useless after years in the game does matter - a lot.

I was looking forward to the cleric PrE (and was going to buy another character slot to roll up a new one), but I'm not sure I want to bother anymore. It's summertime, and I needed to get outside more anyways. Looks like I've got yet another reason to do so.

guzzlr
06-04-2010, 01:22 PM
The situation:

Pre U5 I would cast master’s touch 1 time at a cost of 20 SP and could use all my weapons (a very modest 6 weapons: +5 frost of PG, vorpal, paralyzer, undead basher, disrupter, and ooze killer) for 30 minutes (extended).

Post U5 I cast master’s touch 6 times at a cost of 20 points each for a grand total of 120 spell points for the same 30 minutes.

Note however, that this spell is currently bugged. The spell description states a 30 minute duration when extending; however, after casting the spell, the weapon is now updated with an enchantment that is lasting only 15 minutes. The spell point cost was still the full 20 points.

That means my starting 1483 (edit: 1463 after initial casting) spell points on my 15/2 wizard/rogue has been reduced to 1363.

I would prefer another solution to the apparent issues Master’s Touch creates. If that is not possible, consider lowering the spell point cost to almost nothing (we still have to take the annoying time to cast the spell for every weapon/weapon set we use); perhaps 1 spell point, 2 when extending?

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 01:30 PM
It's supposed to be per weapon if you follow PnP.

Master’s Touch
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Targets: Self
Duration: 1 minute per level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Master’s touch is a spell often found in the repertoire of the adventurers that specialize in casting arcane spells. It grants casters the knowledge and experience to claim proficiency in whatever single weapon or shield they hold in their hands when the spell is cast. The lack of a somatic component means the spell may be cast in the midst of a fight while keeping ready whatever items stand between the caster and danger.
Proficiency is granted for only a single, specific item, although multiple castings allow for multiple proficiencies. For example, a sorcerer holding a short sword and rapier, with a buckler strapped to his off hand, could cast the spell three times, once for each weapon and shield.


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010216a

Purists Rejoice. Seems kind of silly to change it now though.

Ebondevil
06-04-2010, 01:41 PM
Honestly what seems like a simple change to the spell is a huge change to how people play their Arcane Caster characters, the way the game is set up people are required to carry multiple weapons to be able to perform reasonably well, Masters Touch allows wizards (and others) to overcome the inherent weakness of running out of spell points by backing up their spells with a decent Melee weapon.

Personally I'd much rather keep the lag of casting and ending Masters Touch than have this change go through, if nothing else the lag is a good reminder that it's time to recast your spells as Master's Touch is normally the first spell I cast and thus the first to end.

I know it would make things closer to the 3.5 D&D rule-set which in itself is not bad, but it is going to seriously effect the way people play. As a result I am against this change.

Please find another solution, don't put a Major Nerf onto the spell.

Garth_of_Sarlona
06-04-2010, 01:41 PM
A good compromise would be for the caster to gain the proficiency feats in the weapons they are carrying in their hands. Since most casters tend to stick to the same type of weapon this would, at least, reduce the number of times that the spell had to be cast.



It's supposed to be per weapon if you follow PnP.


Silly Eladiun! Don't you know forum posters are only supposed to quote PnP rules when it helps them argue with devs about a nerf! :)

Garth

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 01:45 PM
It's supposed to be per weapon if you follow PnP.

Master’s Touch
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, F
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Targets: Self
Duration: 1 minute per level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Master’s touch is a spell often found in the repertoire of the adventurers that specialize in casting arcane spells. It grants casters the knowledge and experience to claim proficiency in whatever single weapon or shield they hold in their hands when the spell is cast. The lack of a somatic component means the spell may be cast in the midst of a fight while keeping ready whatever items stand between the caster and danger.
Proficiency is granted for only a single, specific item, although multiple castings allow for multiple proficiencies. For example, a sorcerer holding a short sword and rapier, with a buckler strapped to his off hand, could cast the spell three times, once for each weapon and shield.


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010216a

Purists Rejoice. Seems kind of silly to change it now though.

While true, in PnP you would never be expected (or generally allowed) to carry a bag full of weapons. This game has been balanced under the assumption that until you get GS that is exactly what you do.

Thus, the previous version of the spell made more sense in this game and as you point out, this late in the day it is unfortunate to change it.

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 01:45 PM
Silly Eladiun! Don't you know forum posters are only supposed to quote PnP rules when it helps them argue with devs about a nerf! :)

Garth


Hehehehee, thanks, I was hoping someone would see the irony in the don't take my 1d6 threads and the don't make MT follow PnP rules threads. :rolleyes:

guzzlr
06-04-2010, 01:49 PM
A good compromise would be for the caster to gain the proficiency feats in the weapons they are carrying in their hands. Since most casters tend to stick to the same type of weapon this would, at least, reduce the number of times that the spell had to be cast.

That would help... I would have to go out and find new weapons to match them all up nicely, but it would be doable. It seems like a better solution than the current one.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 01:49 PM
I was hoping someone would see the irony in the don't take my 1d6 threads and the don't make MK follow PnP rules threads. :rolleyes:

Actually this is a great demonstration of when to change and when not to.

There is no reason to change from 2d6 to 2-12, in fact 2-12 gives you worse information.

Much like in the change to swings per round, the change to MC was needed for a game play reason - to do otherwise would obstruct the game. It's only technical or gameplay necessities that should take us away from PnP.

Cyr
06-04-2010, 01:54 PM
They could have it be a permentant effect once hit until it is hit again (-20 sp, all martial/simple weapon prof). That way the lag happens once per character log in. You know instead of just nerfing the spell because it's takes slightly less time to 'fix' it.

Pathing lag -> make players play slower, dps lag -> make players do less dps, and now master's touch lag -> make master's touch do less!

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 01:55 PM
Much like in the change to swings per round, the change to MC was needed for a game play reason - to do otherwise would obstruct the game. It's only technical or gameplay necessities that should take us away from PnP.

That reason being so I could make a level 20 non-fighter class that could use every weapon barring exotics in the game because I like to play them. Ummm....no, not what the spell was intended to do in PnP . You want that splash fighter;pure arcanes should not have this ability. Only the equipped weapons probably too far the other way. One weapon class per cast I think is more fair, i.e. if I'm holding long sword, all long swords. The way this worked was unbalancing. If the Khopesh TWF was a Build of the Month so was the Uber WF Battlecaster... if a class could UMD every wizard spell in the game casters would have a fit...oh wait...that happened.

I doubt this was lag related...this was a straight up class balance nerf.

guzzlr
06-04-2010, 02:08 PM
You want that splash fighter;pure arcanes should not have this ability. Only the equipped weapons probably too far the other way. One weapon class per cast I think is more fair, i.e. if I'm holding long sword, all long swords. The way this worked was unbalancing. If the Khopesh TWF was a Build of the Month so was the Uber WF Battlecaster...

I disagree that there is anything about a Battlecaster that is unbalancing (as things stand now). Some of them can be built and played well, and be effective, but unbalancing? No, I don't think so.

That being said, granting proficiency in the held weapon type(s) would be something I could live with. I don't care for the change and would prefer it not happen, but I would be happier with the compromise.

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 02:11 PM
I disagree that there is anything about a Battlecaster that is unbalancing (as things stand now). Some of them can be built and played well, and be effective, but unbalancing? No, I don't think so.

That being said, granting proficiency in the held weapon type(s) would be something I could live with. I don't care for the change and would prefer it not happen, but I would be happier with the compromise.

Look at the achievements forum. A lot (I would say most) of those look what I soloed on Epic/Elite posts are WF Battlecasters...

Missing_Minds
06-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Here is a proposal to fix the problem, without really altering the way it plays:
1. Type the penalty a bonus type named proficiency.
2. Change every proficiency feat to give a +0 proficiency bonus when using that weapon type.
3. Make Master Touch grant the same +0 bonus when using a simple of martial weapon.

Based on DDO's stacking rules, the highest bonus applies. In this case, a +0 is greater than -4 so it override the -4.

If a penalty can't be made to overlap with a bonus, how about:
1. Make non-proficiency the base. (Read: Give everyone -4.)
2. Change every proficiency feat to give a +4 proficiency bonus when using that weapon type, therefore nullifying the aforementioned penalty.
3. Make Master Touch grant the same +4 bonus when using a simple of martial weapon.

That way, the lag is addressed since the feats are not added to the character sheet yet it works even if you swap weapon. No?

Actually.. that isn't a bad idea. The problem is the time to code. That won't be a short easy fix and could break things if they aren't careful.

I can't say as a player or occasional DM that I EVER once ever look at proficiency as a feat. I always just considered it a penalty.

guzzlr
06-04-2010, 02:14 PM
Fair enough. My idea of a battlecaster is quite a bit different than a 20th arcane running around FoD-ing/wailing everything. Still, valid point.

Khimberlhyte
06-04-2010, 02:15 PM
That reason being so I could make a level 20 non-fighter class that could use every weapon barring exotics in the game because I like to play them. Ummm....no, not what the spell was intended to do in PnP . You want that splash fighter;pure arcanes should not have this ability. Only the equipped weapons probably too far the other way. One weapon class per cast I think is more fair, i.e. if I'm holding long sword, all long swords. The way this worked was unbalancing. If the Khopesh TWF was a Build of the Month so was the Uber WF Battlecaster... if a class could UMD every wizard spell in the game casters would have a fit...oh wait...that happened.

I doubt this was lag related...this was a straight up class balance nerf.
I haven't played PnP in over 20 years, but you know far better than I do the differences playstyle between PnP and DDO. Turbine has created a game that is still 90% hack and slash, where you have to literally mow your way through mobs to reach your goal. Unlike swinging a weapon, SP are very constrained in the game, and you have arcanes who are little more than haste and buff bots in raids and epics (I saw a thread this morning on the forums begging for a raid that allows arcanes to be useful).

This is a change that affects viability of arcanes at low levels. I would never play an arcane without veteran status again, that is for sure, and that is doubly true if MT gets nerfed.

That giant sucking sound......

That noise is the sound of fun going down the drain.

Since the producers at Turbine do not appear to have figured it out yet, most people play this game for entertainment. I draw a simple picture for you, Turbine: customers having fun = money for Turbine.

Now I don't need or want uber items, unlimited SP, or something new that will throw the game completely out of balance. I don't mind minor changes that bring the game back into balance, as I know that some things have to change. But like most others, I have spent a lot of time learning the rules, getting to know the dungeons, monsters, and spells, and developing a playstyle and character build that lets me maximize my enjoyment of the game.

People take it personally when that gets taken away from them. When you have that many hours invested into a character and playstyle, some changes can effectively kill that character.

Missing_Minds
06-04-2010, 02:15 PM
While true, in PnP you would never be expected (or generally allowed) to carry a bag full of weapons. This game has been balanced under the assumption that until you get GS that is exactly what you do.

Thus, the previous version of the spell made more sense in this game and as you point out, this late in the day it is unfortunate to change it.

Perhapes not completely. I would think it should be a simple matter to cast master's touch to grant the profficency of teh singular weapon that was in your main hand.

So you'd only have to cast it for the types you use. Use a whole lot of mauls? Cast it once like you are used to.

Now granted, maybe it should grant proff to both main and off hand items. TWF would get the advantage of this. It would also be 2 feats persay rather than the 50+ that it did do.

404error
06-04-2010, 02:21 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D

Eladrin
06-04-2010, 02:24 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D
Except for when you have multiple weapons that you don't have equipped. It does affect shields now, and is much closer to the source material, but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

Edit: You can also now Master's Touch an item and hand it off to someone else in the party, which is an interesting bonus to the spell.

Garth_of_Sarlona
06-04-2010, 02:26 PM
Eladrin vs 404Error dev cagefight!!!!11one

Garth

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 02:26 PM
I haven't played PnP in over 20 years, but you know far better than I do the differences playstyle between PnP and DDO.

I hate the argument too and intended to start it as an ironic joke about how people use it as a club when they don't like a change away from PnP but ignore it when they don't like a change closer to PnP but...the more I thought about it I realized I didn't care for the implementation and agreed that it should be changed.

Turbine has created a game that is still 90% hack and slash, where you have to literally mow your way through mobs to reach your goal. Unlike swinging a weapon, SP are very constrained in the game, and you have arcanes who are little more than haste and buff bots in raids and epics (I saw a thread this morning on the forums begging for a raid that allows arcanes to be useful).

The first rule of the forums don't believe everything you read on the forums. Many arcanes who complain about being useless are poorly built arcanes...who don't realize being a WoF dispenser becomes less useful as you go up the ladder or that being the leader on the kill count board isn't the end all and be all measure of effectiveness. Good example, my lowbie caster in TS...I was webbing the Constructs (Web works fantastic on Golems, FYI) half the party went, " That's cool. Didn't know that works." Why? A lot of casters go -> Contruct = = Can't Blast; No Kill = = Stand Around and be Useless. Being a Wizard in DnD is about being smarter than the average Barbarian and using your tools to help the party in varied situations. We are subtle and quick to anger.

This is a change that affects viability of arcanes at low levels. I would never play an arcane without veteran status again, that is for sure, and that is doubly true if MT gets nerfed.

You really have that many weapons you feel you need to switch between before level 4. I pull my BS card...your just using a single Flaming Great Axe/Great Sword anyway so it would have no effect. You don't need an arsenal at low levels.

That giant sucking sound......

That noise is the sound of fun going down the drain.

Bye, Fun...say hi to Andy Dufresne while your down there.

Since the producers at Turbine do not appear to have figured it out yet, most people play this game for entertainment. I draw a simple picture for you, Turbine: customers having fun = money for Turbine.

Hi Welcome

Now I don't need or want uber items, unlimited SP, or something new that will throw the game completely out of balance. I don't mind minor changes that bring the game back into balance, as I know that some things have to change. But like most others, I have spent a lot of time learning the rules, getting to know the dungeons, monsters, and spells, and developing a playstyle and character build that lets me maximize my enjoyment of the game.

People take it personally when that gets taken away from them. When you have that many hours invested into a character and playstyle, some changes can effectively kill that character.

Yep, sucks but thus is life in the wide world of MMO, Turbine has a lighter nerf bat than most. Good advice if a build seems too good to be true grab your ankles. Been playing online seems like forever now...First nerf...bunny hopping in Counter Strike whole lots since then...some real painful to swallow. I don't get worked up over them anymore it usually balances out or after trying it I find something else to do.


xxx

Eladiun
06-04-2010, 02:32 PM
Eladrin vs 404Error dev cagefight!!!!11one

Garth


Two men enter; one man leave.

Gol
06-04-2010, 02:32 PM
So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D
Seriously? The only "better" part is the less lag. However, the spell has lost most of it's functionality. That can't possibly bet "better".

nbennet
06-04-2010, 02:35 PM
Except for when you have multiple weapons that you don't have equipped. It does affect shields now, and is much closer to the source material, but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

This was what I was afraid of in my OP...

Which competent melee does *not* have a bag of stuff?

In my case, these weapons were not trivial to acquire, and the change will dramatically affect my playabilty. In order to compensate either I have to seriously limit the weapons I use, or spend an unfeasible amount of time and spell points buffing, or reincarnate into a melee splash. None of these options is appealing.

It is not as if my battle bard was overpowered to begin with, and deserved of a nerf. Combined with the TWF changes, I have a sinking feeling about the character's future.

Can we get some clarification as to why this was done? Like other changes, it now seems to be a nerf sold to the playerbase as a lag fix.

dkyle
06-04-2010, 02:39 PM
but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

Do you realize how many weapons characters carry around? That's a meaning-less conditional. Carrying a "golf bag" of weapons should be the assumed play-style.

Also, considering that shields are worthless past level 10 or so (also when weapon types start to really proliferate), that's hardly consolation.

Cyr
06-04-2010, 02:41 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D

So which is it gentlemen?

Is it that when you have a great sword equiped cast masters touch and then switch to a maul that you are not proficient with the maul? Or when you swtich to that maul you gain the maul prof at that time? One is most certainly a nerf.

Zaodan
06-04-2010, 02:43 PM
Here is how you fix it:

Master's Touch
If you are suffering a proficiency penalty, this spell grants a +4 Proficiency bonus to hit.

Ta Da.

Missing_Minds
06-04-2010, 02:45 PM
Two men enter; one man leave.

One shall stand, one shall fall.

Bunker
06-04-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm kind of surprised that they didn't chang master's touch to work like resist energy, or like holysword spell. What I mean is having the spell pull up a window where the user can choose which weapon they want.

I suppose this way will be ok, as long as it does 2 things:

1. Removes the ungodly long lag/pause when using the spell.

2. Is easy to adapt to for all players.

Khimberlhyte
06-04-2010, 02:54 PM
You really have that many weapons you feel you need to switch between before level 4. I pull my BS card...your just using a single Flaming Great Axe/Great Sword anyway so it would have no effect. You don't need an arsenal at low levels.Read it again, as you missed the intended meaning. Wizards suck below level 4, this won't help the situation. Few spell slots, few SP, squishy. And yes, I can see needing more than one weapon in many quests before level 4. Catacombs: ghost touch, slashing, and bludgeoning are all handy to have. Even in Korthos, you need 2 or more different weapons for some of the quests (skeletons).

The game is best when grouping, but it is also fun to solo. This seriously affects solo play for arcanes, to the point that they will less unviable outside of groups. Playstyles like the Shadow Mage might be relatively unscathed, but I'm pretty sure that there is some situational reliance on Master's Touch even with that build.

guzzlr
06-04-2010, 02:56 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D

I beg to differ. Perhaps that is what was intended, but that is not what appears to be happening. When I cast the spell my weapon appears to become enchanted (with a bugged buff that is not using extend spell).
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7301/screenshot00203.jpg

I have tried different (golf bag) weapons, and weapons of the same type. My greatswords each have to be enchanted, as does my 9 iron, wedge, and driver. :p

Valindria
06-04-2010, 03:10 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D



Ok That is kind of how I envisioned it only I see it like this:

1. You cast spell - You get the masters touch buff icon in the upper right
2. Any martial weapons equipped from that point get the Martial buff with the current duration*


So I have level 20 bard. I have rapiers equipped and cast the spell (extended). I get the buff/icon with a 40 minutes (1per level X2 for extend). Now I swap to my portal beater True Chaos Great Axe of Greater Construct Bane. The great axe gains martial prof with a timer of 39. Ten minutes later we win part 1 of shroud and move on to part 2. (Assume I did not rest and the buff is still active). At that point I swap to a Heavy Pick and light pick. Both weapons get the martial proficiency with 29minutes remaining.

If it did that EVERYONE would be happy.

*Edit: If you had a something equipped that needed the feat it would get it when the spell is cast. If you switch to something else it would get it then. It might increase a little bit of lag when weapon swapping but a user could cast the spell, hit 1,2,3,4,5 to switch to the 5 weapon sets they use most and then move on.

MustangMan94
06-04-2010, 03:17 PM
As was mentioned earlier why not just have the game mechanics check to see if the toon is proficient with said weapon. If not the the toon gets a +4 to hit. It will still help reduce lag as the game only needs to check the weapons when switched. The game mechanics seen to already do it with the protection from evil spells when you get your bonus to hit said evil npc.

At my old job we have used similar code during the construction and updates of our conversion program. It was less resource intensive to check individual lines as they were converted then to do a mass change.

Valindria
06-04-2010, 03:33 PM
I forgot to mention/ask above:

What happens If you rest/finish the quest? Does the timer remain on the item?

Going with my example above, I see it kind of like this

I rest after beating part 3 of shroud.

1. I no longer have Masters Touch so I will not be proficient with any weapons not previously equipped (you know, unless I have the feat).
2. Any weapons will still have the old buff on them. So my great axe and picks would have say 5 minutes left on them. I could equip with no penalty
3. If I cast the spell again, I get the buff/icon. Now when I swap to my greataxe it checks:



1. The masters touch spell is active (on user)
2. I am not proficient with the weapon (Great Axe on drow bard)
3. Weapon gets a new MT timer (IF NVL(item's masters touch duration, 0) < Spell Buff Duration THEN weapon gets the masters touch duration)


I hope it works something like that.

ArdanosMerrow
06-04-2010, 03:57 PM
This spell went from costing 20sp and 5 secs lag for 40mins of use to 200sp for 40mins of use on 10 weapon sets.

How do they pay these guys to come up with this type of solution...it took the forum all of 12 secs to come up with better solutions for free.

Skani
06-04-2010, 03:58 PM
Which competent melee does *not* have a bag of stuff?
(...)
It is not as if my battle bard was overpowered to begin with, and deserved of a nerf. Combined with the TWF changes, I have a sinking feeling about the character's future.


This



Do you realize how many weapons characters carry around? That's a meaning-less conditional. Carrying a "golf bag" of weapons should be the assumed play-style

And this.

Leave Master Touch as it is. It's usually perma-buff for characters that need it (mostly pure bards), so the lag/freeze at the begining of quest and/or after shrine (20/40 min duration) is not that bad, but casting it multiple times to get prof in our weapons sets will be.

Seneca_Windforge
06-04-2010, 03:59 PM
Master's Touch too, eh?

The fail in the next update continues to increase.

nbennet
06-04-2010, 04:00 PM
I hope it works something like that.

It doesn't work like that. You need to cast it individually for every weapon. At the start of each quest you will have to equip and buff everything you want to use, one by one.

I'm not sure if the buffs expire on resting or exiting - can someon confirm?

Valindria
06-04-2010, 04:05 PM
It doesn't work like that. You need to cast it individually for every weapon. At the start of each quest you will have to equip and buff everything you want to use, one by one.

I'm not sure if the buffs expire on resting or exiting - can someon confirm?

I am hoping it is currently bugged and they fix it to be like I suggested. Does anyone see any problems with what I suggested? Normal MT users will not notice anything but less lag.

Can we get a Dev to C/D how it is supposed to work? Even with the posts in here by the devs I am unsure. Thanks.

Ebondevil
06-04-2010, 05:21 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D

This post is full of WIN, have it work this way, Please!


Except for when you have multiple weapons that you don't have equipped. It does affect shields now, and is much closer to the source material, but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

Edit: You can also now Master's Touch an item and hand it off to someone else in the party, which is an interesting bonus to the spell.

This post is full of Fail, Sorry Eladrin but this is a Huge Nerf to the spell and messes it up badly, everyone has a golf bag full of weapons and as others have said, it's gone from '20sp and a bit of lag' to '100sp+ and a few minutes swapping about weapons'. If you're going to implement this then stop having weapons break, then we wouldn't need to swap weapons quite so much.

Valindria
06-04-2010, 05:28 PM
Does equipped mean in your hands or do weapons in the green "Weapon Sets" get proficiency too?

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 05:34 PM
Masters touch still is a buff to your avatar. The buff works on any simple or martial equipped while the spell is active. So as far as the player base is concerned it works like it used to but is less laggy now. We only changed when you receive the proficiency for the weapon equipped. So no need to fret there is no nerf to masters touch it was made better =D

Oh, so its no change really, works exactly like before, its still a buff on the avatar. Hey, this is great.


Except for when you have multiple weapons that you don't have equipped. It does affect shields now, and is much closer to the source material, but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

Edit: You can also now Master's Touch an item and hand it off to someone else in the party, which is an interesting bonus to the spell.

Um... except that it isn't true, it isn't a buff on the avatar, its on a single weapon. It works fine unless you use more than one weapon. Which of course was our complaint from page 1 of this thread.

Ethias
06-04-2010, 05:37 PM
If you must change Master's Touch, please please PLEASE reduce the SP cost by a ton, and make sure Extend works on it, please? For a Bard that switches between weapons frequently, this spell is going to be a huge pain now...

Eladrin
06-04-2010, 05:47 PM
Um... except that it isn't true, it isn't a buff on the avatar, its on a single weapon. It works fine unless you use more than one weapon. Which of course was our complaint from page 1 of this thread.
404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

Coldin
06-04-2010, 05:55 PM
404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

That sounds very much like what an artificer can do. (Cast spells on items). May I do some rampant speculation and say that you guys are working on implementing artificers?! :eek:

dopey69
06-04-2010, 05:57 PM
/ FAIL now that you see there is a problem you can now fix it for us pleez ty

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 06:08 PM
404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

I know... I was just ammused that obviously you originally tested a version that would have been nice (or 404 wouldn't have been so misinformed) and then went with something so crappy.

Eladrin, I'm sure you have played melee in this game and know that pre GS you are a drain on the party if you don't have more than one weapon set - that's why you guys moved us from 4 weapon sets to 20, right? Please, this needs to be fixed or you really are pretty much forcing battle casters and bards to MC.

Can you at least consider "cast it and you get the feat applied just for the 1 weapon/shield type you have equipped"?

Lorien_the_First_One
06-04-2010, 06:09 PM
That sounds very much like what an artificer can do. (Cast spells on items). May I do some rampant speculation and say that you guys are working on implementing artificers?! :eek:

Code was already there for holysword I imagine.

nbennet
06-04-2010, 06:20 PM
The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)


This makes me sad. :(

If it goes live, I foresee using only a subset of my bard's weapons:
- Min II (all dps)
- Vorpals (high hp trash)
- (something for the undead bosses - Pos-Pos blunt when I can craft them, but will probably not bother now)

I won't be using any situational/utility/flavor weapons, because of the sp cost, not to mention the tedium. Buffing every single weapon will quickly get old. Let someone else do the destruction, stunning etc.

My character will be somewhat less effective, and more bland/ have fewer options. On the upside, I will have more inventory space! I am most frustrated about binding a lot of weapons that will now probably sit in the bank.

ArdanosMerrow
06-04-2010, 06:58 PM
This makes me sad. :(
I won't be using any situational/utility/flavor weapons, because of the sp cost, not to mention the tedium. Buffing every single weapon will quickly get old. Let someone else do the destruction, stunning etc.


Exactly, TEDIUM with a capital everything. Whats the point of having disruptors, vorpal, smiting, paralyzers, banishing and various Greater banes (GEOB ofcourse) when I have to cast Masters touch at least 6 or more times.


I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

Eladrin did you somehow forget about all these extremely usefull and situational types of weapons?

Masters touch is for people who dont get every single martial weapon feat free at lvl 1 like those fighters/barbs etc. Ofcourse we're goin to have to cast it a billion times.

Ethias
06-04-2010, 07:25 PM
404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

While I like the idea behind the change, the practical problems it presents at higher levels means that it'd be nice if you keep with this route you consider the following:
1)Reducing the SP cost of the spell... some of us, even at low levels, carry 4 or so weapons that we use regularly. At higher levels I've heard it's a lot more.
2) Allow us to cast on items in our bag, not just the items we have equipped maybe?

Otherwise... honestly, maybe just set it back to what it was? >.<

Coldin
06-04-2010, 07:31 PM
Code was already there for holysword I imagine.

The capstone, or the spell? Because the paladin spell Holy Sword just makes a new item. Actually changing an item is quite a bit different.

dkyle
06-04-2010, 07:36 PM
That sounds very much like what an artificer can do. (Cast spells on items). May I do some rampant speculation and say that you guys are working on implementing artificers?! :eek:

Or, implementing guild slot items.

Chaosprism
06-05-2010, 03:26 AM
items can already have "extra attributes" on them disjunction puts a debuff on the item.

It's good..

might even see a time when flame weapon, sonic weapon, keen/impact weapon spell make it into the game to change the attributes temporarily on a weapon

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 04:36 AM
Ok....so as much as my rep bar will probably regret saying this....I have to say keep Eladrins version.

I have to start with this, I have a lot of casters that make full use of MT, so this is not a biased or unknowing opinion.

Why should a wiz, sorc, or bard be able to cast GH, extended haste, displacement, and rage on a whim.....

Wiz, Sorc can cast Stoneskin on themselves by level 7.

Bards have great enhancing songs and can self heal easily at higher levels.

Wiz, Sorcs have insanely damaging and/or great CC spells....

So , I ask again why...should these three classes also be able to have easy access to proficiency at wielding the most formidable weapons in the game as well.

I'm sorry, IMO, some people just want tooooo much.

Let the melees be melees and the casters who want to be melees have to struggle a little to do so.

There is no reason they should get everything I listed AND easy access proficiency to just about every weapon in the game....talk about imbalance.


***puts on neg rep disaster suit***

bloodyrag
06-05-2010, 07:05 AM
+1rep to you vVAnjilaVv i feel the same way in this. a melee has to get a damn good umd to b able to do the things a caster can do for themselves and even then there isnt scrolls or wands of every spell so why should a caster get every weapon with 1 simple spell. its goin to hurt a toon of mine but i agree its simply to overpowering for those who use it heavily.

Eladiun
06-05-2010, 07:35 AM
vVAnjilaVv, you forgot self-heals as well since the most popular build is WF. I agree with you and said as much earlier in the thread.

Zargarx
06-05-2010, 07:50 AM
Interesting change to master touch - I do expect it will be situationally annoying mostly for my pure bard, and somewhat so for the battlemage.
To make up for that, will it now permit proficiency in exotic weapons?

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 07:53 AM
vVAnjilaVv, you forgot self-heals as well since the most popular build is WF. I agree with you and said as much earlier in the thread.

I was kind of wishy washy on whether or not to include that aspect for wiz and sorcs....a lot of people play non-warforged builds and it's much harder if your not a WF to self heal.

Sorry I missed your post and said what you did already.....getting a little burnt out on trying to keep up with all of this Lama stuff. :p

knightgf
06-05-2010, 07:58 AM
My bard is very much blessed that he only uses only one weapon with a proficiency that he doesn't naturally have, and thats a mineral greatsword. At least the update can work for me...

Eladrin
06-05-2010, 07:58 AM
Interesting change to master touch - I do expect it will be situationally annoying mostly for my pure bard, and somewhat so for the battlemage.
To make up for that, will it now permit proficiency in exotic weapons?
It does now permit the use of shields (which it didn't before), since by-the-book it should.


items can already have "extra attributes" on them disjunction puts a debuff on the item.

It's good..

might even see a time when flame weapon, sonic weapon, keen/impact weapon spell make it into the game to change the attributes temporarily on a weapon
That's the most interesting thing we learned while investigating this one. Now we know how to make that style of spell, so you're very likely to see Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon in the near future, and possibly some of the others later. (Most of the "add an enchant" effects specify that they don't play nice with weapons that already possess enchantments, and we'll have to figure out what we want to do with that.)

knightgf
06-05-2010, 08:01 AM
404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.

Hmmm....now that you mention this...it sounds almost like you might put this as a permenant enchantment from say, a crafting ritual of some kind...or maybe through a permanency spell...could that happen in the future?

Oh, and I just realized a side bonus to this spell(Correct me if i'm wrong): Unless you use mordenkainen's disjunction on the weapon(VERY few npcs and players do), it can't be dispelled by dispel magic or greater dispel magic, or even by death! That certainly will save spellcasters just a little bit of SP when going up against tough mobs or beholders or dispelling traps or the like...

Ebondevil
06-05-2010, 08:54 AM
Let the melees be melees and the casters who want to be melees have to struggle a little to do so.

There is no reason they should get everything I listed AND easy access proficiency to just about every weapon in the game....talk about imbalance.

Arcane's already have to struggle, especially Wizards and Sorcerers who have the worst hit points in game, the worst Attack bonuses in game and most races don't have any form of self healing, they also have the worst proficiencies in game.

Shields on the other hand are almost completely useless to them due to the arcane spell failure on them so getting the 'advantage' of shields is no advantage at all.

Currently Melee are pretty much required to have:
Main weapon of Choice (for a caster this will probably be two handed)
Ranged Weapon (Longbow)
Fire or Acid weapon (To kill trolls effectively)
Blunt Weapon (To kill Skeletons)
Adamantium Blunt Weapon (To kill golems)
Change is from 20sp to up to 100sp

More if you have specific weapons for dealing with specific things like Bane weapons and Elemental damage weapons (specifically frost for Fire Elementals etc.)

All the while trying to hit with the lowest Attack bonuses. Also bear in mind most of the spells you listed can benefit every one else as well so aren't exactly restricted to the casters, Casters currently need to spend 20sp (of a limited supply) every time they buff when most others get decent weapon options for free.

You could probably manage the same thing with 1 level of fighter dip and then no longer have any need of Masters Touch at all, but personally I was looking forward to getting the Wizard Capstone enhancement which a Fighter Dip would totally nerf.

It may not seem like a big change but it is to a multitude of characters and play-styles which have grown up around the spells use, just to remove a bit of lag which honestly isn't a big problem and is in some ways helpful.

I much prefer 404's method of gaining proficiency for the weapon when you equip it, that would be a much better way of removing the lag.

Otherwise let me spend 8,000gp to enchant something permanently to grant proficiency and without body slot usage, something I could and would certainly do in 3.5 Rules, which the spell is based on.


Spell level X Caster Level X 2,000
Cost Doubled for 1 min/ Caster level Duration
Cost Doubled for no Body Slot Usage

1x1x2000 = 2000.
2000x2 = 4000.
4000x2= 8000.

Or let's correct a few other things so everything works the same way, so Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization only effects one specific weapon type, not whole classifications, that would be fair, right? :rolleyes:

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 09:23 AM
Arcane's already have to struggle, especially Wizards and Sorcerers who have the worst hit points in game, the worst Attack bonuses in game and most races don't have any form of self healing, they also have the worst proficiencies in game.

Shields on the other hand are almost completely useless to them due to the arcane spell failure on them so getting the 'advantage' of shields is no advantage at all.

Currently Melee are pretty much required to have:
Main weapon of Choice (for a caster this will probably be two handed)
Ranged Weapon (Longbow)
Fire or Acid weapon (To kill trolls effectively)
Blunt Weapon (To kill Skeletons)
Adamantium Blunt Weapon (To kill golems)
Change is from 20sp to up to 100sp

More if you have specific weapons for dealing with specific things like Bane weapons and Elemental damage weapons (specifically frost for Fire Elementals etc.)

All the while trying to hit with the lowest Attack bonuses. Also bear in mind most of the spells you listed can benefit every one else as well so aren't exactly restricted to the casters, Casters currently need to spend 20sp (of a limited supply) every time they buff when most others get decent weapon options for free.

You could probably manage the same thing with 1 level of fighter dip and then no longer have any need of Masters Touch at all, but personally I was looking forward to getting the Wizard Capstone enhancement which a Fighter Dip would totally nerf.

It may not seem like a big change but it is to a multitude of characters and play-styles which have grown up around the spells use, just to remove a bit of lag which honestly isn't a big problem and is in some ways helpful.

I much prefer 404's method of gaining proficiency for the weapon when you equip it, that would be a much better way of removing the lag.

Otherwise let me spend 8,000gp to enchant something permanently to grant proficiency and without body slot usage, something I could and would certainly do in 3.5 Rules, which the spell is based on.


Spell level X Caster Level X 2,000
Cost Doubled for 1 min/ Caster level Duration
Cost Doubled for no Body Slot Usage

1x1x2000 = 2000.
2000x2 = 4000.
4000x2= 8000.

Or let's correct a few other things so everything works the same way, so Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Superior Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization only effects one specific weapon type, not whole classifications, that would be fair, right? :rolleyes:

A caster is a caster.....they really do not deserve such easy access to all those weapons.....when u wanna make UMD a class skill for melees then we will talk...until then......

and if your wizard is max INT, I absolutely would not let a little thing like this keep your from going pure to get the capstone.

Like I said in my first reply, my statement was not biased, I have characters that use this spell quite a bit...to me tho it just is not that big of a deal.

Ritual or process to make a weapon permanent proficiency with...be prepared to spend a lot of TP or expect quite a grind....i doubt 8000gp would even come close to what they would have in mind for something like that.

Really what it comes down to is...a caster is a caster...a fighter is a fighter...if u want to play a fighter then make one, if u want to be a caster be grateful for the fact you have a form of being proficient with almost all weapon types to begin with...because MT was not in this game for quite a long time.

Dendrix
06-05-2010, 09:24 AM
That's the most interesting thing we learned while investigating this one. Now we know how to make that style of spell, so you're very likely to see Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon in the near future, and possibly some of the others later.

The Align Weapon spells for Clerics (and favoured souls) spring to mind.
The Magic Vestments spells for Shields and Armour springs to mind.

Darkrok
06-05-2010, 09:27 AM
If this wouldn't cause undo lag having Master's Touch enchant all of the weapons you're carrying at the time might be an option to address the problem of multiple weapons being desired.

moorewr
06-05-2010, 09:50 AM
That's the most interesting thing we learned while investigating this one. Now we know how to make that style of spell, so you're very likely to see Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon in the near future, and possibly some of the others later. (Most of the "add an enchant" effects specify that they don't play nice with weapons that already possess enchantments, and we'll have to figure out what we want to do with that.)

I'd like to put a vote in for PnP-style transmuting weapons using this tech. X chance to proc to add a buff for x seconds would work fine.

Symar-FangofLloth
06-05-2010, 09:56 AM
That's the most interesting thing we learned while investigating this one. Now we know how to make that style of spell, so you're very likely to see Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon in the near future, and possibly some of the others later. (Most of the "add an enchant" effects specify that they don't play nice with weapons that already possess enchantments, and we'll have to figure out what we want to do with that.)

So, that mean you're making Artificers now, right?
Right?
:cool:

Xyfiel
06-05-2010, 10:27 AM
Option of having it have a menu for ranged/thrown/slashing/bludgeoing/piercing? Most chars would be specced one way, and this would make it so they could swap amongst those weapons.

ArdanosMerrow
06-05-2010, 10:37 AM
Ok....so as much as my rep bar will probably regret saying this....I have to say keep Eladrins version.

So , I ask again why...should these three classes also be able to have easy access to proficiency at wielding the most formidable weapons in the game as well.

I'm sorry, IMO, some people just want tooooo much.

Let the melees be melees and the casters who want to be melees have to struggle a little to do so.

There is no reason they should get everything I listed AND easy access proficiency to just about every weapon in the game....talk about imbalance.


***puts on neg rep disaster suit***

Obviously you've never actually compared a melee to a caster. Beleive me just casting MT and wading in with an Epic SOS isn't going to make me a frenzied berserker with an epic SOS. Its going to make me a caster with a nice sword that i can hit every once in a while with and do some ok damage instead of sitting around doing nothing conserving sp.

MT doesn't make you a melee char it only negates a -4 penalty, your not a juggernaut your just less gimped.

GhoulsTouch
06-05-2010, 10:48 AM
A caster is a caster.....they really do not deserve such easy access to all those weapons.....when u wanna make UMD a class skill for melees then we will talk...until then......

and if your wizard is max INT, I absolutely would not let a little thing like this keep your from going pure to get the capstone.

Like I said in my first reply, my statement was not biased, I have characters that use this spell quite a bit...to me tho it just is not that big of a deal.

Ritual or process to make a weapon permanent proficiency with...be prepared to spend a lot of TP or expect quite a grind....i doubt 8000gp would even come close to what they would have in mind for something like that.

Really what it comes down to is...a caster is a caster...a fighter is a fighter...if u want to play a fighter then make one, if u want to be a caster be grateful for the fact you have a form of being proficient with almost all weapon types to begin with...because MT was not in this game for quite a long time.

That is exactly right.

Xyfiel
06-05-2010, 10:48 AM
A caster is a caster.....they really do not deserve such easy access to all those weapons.....when u wanna make UMD a class skill for melees then we will talk...until then......

and if your wizard is max INT, I absolutely would not let a little thing like this keep your from going pure to get the capstone.

Like I said in my first reply, my statement was not biased, I have characters that use this spell quite a bit...to me tho it just is not that big of a deal.

Ritual or process to make a weapon permanent proficiency with...be prepared to spend a lot of TP or expect quite a grind....i doubt 8000gp would even come close to what they would have in mind for something like that.

Really what it comes down to is...a caster is a caster...a fighter is a fighter...if u want to play a fighter then make one, if u want to be a caster be grateful for the fact you have a form of being proficient with almost all weapon types to begin with...because MT was not in this game for quite a long time.

But madstone, tensers, divine power clickies, multiclassing, racial profs, and taking a feat have been. There are many ways to get prof, this is one few people actually used.

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 11:31 AM
But madstone, tensers, divine power clickies, multiclassing, racial profs, and taking a feat have been. There are many ways to get prof, this is one few people actually used.

And u still can.

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 11:36 AM
Obviously you've never actually compared a melee to a caster. Beleive me just casting MT and wading in with an Epic SOS isn't going to make me a frenzied berserker with an epic SOS. Its going to make me a caster with a nice sword that i can hit every once in a while with and do some ok damage instead of sitting around doing nothing conserving sp.

MT doesn't make you a melee char it only negates a -4 penalty, your not a juggernaut your just less gimped.

No it will not make them a Juggernaut, but it does blow the option for more weapon selection wide open.

Easily accessing 1d12x3 as opposed to 1d6x2 is a lot of extra DPS......and unless u totally do not know what ur doing, even 8 base STR builds can still hit stuff.

Add to the fact that bards can totally enhance their DPS with songs and fascinate and all three of these classes can make monsters fight for them or in the case of wiz/sorcs have massive aoe damage spells....ur still not convincing me that they also deserve easy accessibility to almost every weapon in the game.

GeneralDiomedes
06-05-2010, 11:45 AM
A welcome return to the original description and intended power of the spell. It is a level 1 spell after all.

Also nice is the possibility of spells which enchant weapons. I'm looking at the Align weapon spells specifically.

nbennet
06-05-2010, 12:33 PM
A welcome return to the original description and intended power of the spell. It is a level 1 spell after all.

Because so many other things in the game work according to their PnP version, right ;)
Imagine the melee uproar if Weapon Focus etc. were changed to their original description!

The whole argument about this being necessary to restrict casters from meleeing (vVaniljV & others) is spurious. The change does not prevent people from accessing the same proficiencies as before - if they want, they will still be able to use all their weapons (by casting the spell multiple times.) All it does is drive up the cost in terms of time and SP.

The likely result is more time spent buffing as people cycle through their weapon sets for that quest, less sp available for other things, and less diversity in terms of weapons used. People will still be using their main dps or DR-bypassing weapons. The weapons that casters won't use anymore are the utility or situational stuff, like temporarily switching to a destruction or shattermantle, for example.

Speaking personally, I'm looking at a whole lot of weapons going to the bank - making my character feel more bland, and me disappointed at the wasted effort of acquiring them.

Xyfiel
06-05-2010, 01:39 PM
I also believe if you want to stick to a fighter is a fighter and a caster is a caster, get rid of all clickies including shroud ones. Why play a caster if a melee can have half your spells anyway?

voodoogroves
06-05-2010, 01:40 PM
When I hold people and go to town w/ the thundering/maiming heavy picks, I'm not proficient and I don't have TWF ... and I've been using a shield to block w/o proficiency for quite some time. I've got a metalline staff for the golems and I command the undead.

This will, however, put a damper on my greatsword and greataxe use, or at least slow me down during buffing. More than likely, since the casting time on MT is so low, I'll wait and cast it *if* I need it (and put it right next to my DP clickie to make sure I remember).

Visty
06-05-2010, 01:42 PM
When I hold people and go to town w/ the thundering/maiming heavy picks, I'm not proficient and I don't have TWF ... and I've been using a shield to block w/o proficiency for quite some time.

well, here is to say: against held mobs everythign is autocrit, no proficiency needed.
if you shieldblock, you dont attack...doesnt matter what your tohit is

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 01:44 PM
I also believe if you want to stick to a fighter is a fighter and a caster is a caster, get rid of all clickies including shroud ones. Why play a caster if a melee can have half your spells anyway?

Heh, sorry, it takes a lot more effort to make a Shroud clicky than to pop a level one spell and have proficiency with almost everything......not to mention your not going to get many casters agreeing with you as they have to spend less of their SP if u can do it yourself.

Really, big deal.......10 sp a weapon and it's good till next shrine.....I mean how many weapons do you actually switch to, if it's that many maybe life is too complicated anyways.

If u wanna be that way about it, how about we just throw away the spell period and u can go back to using Qstaff's, Xbows, and daggers.
I know I'll survive.

voodoogroves
06-05-2010, 01:55 PM
well, here is to say: against held mobs everythign is autocrit, no proficiency needed.
if you shieldblock, you dont attack...doesnt matter what your tohit is

Right, that's my point.

Sanetri
06-05-2010, 01:56 PM
What's the lag you're talking about? I didn't notice any lags when casting MT before. :P

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 02:01 PM
What's the lag you're talking about? I didn't notice any lags when casting MT before. :P

Oh you just go back to your dungeon you hear....

*chases you away with a broom...erm I mean GreatAxe after casting MT and getting proficiency with everything*

Stupid lag...would have vorp'ed yah too if the spell worked right! :p

Xyfiel
06-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Heh, sorry, it takes a lot more effort to make a Shroud clicky than to pop a level one spell and have proficiency with almost everything......not to mention your not going to get many casters agreeing with you as they have to spend less of their SP if u can do it yourself.

Really, big deal.......10 sp a weapon and it's good till next shrine.....I mean how many weapons do you actually switch to, if it's that many maybe life is too complicated anyways.

If u wanna be that way about it, how about we just throw away the spell period and u can go back to using Qstaff's, Xbows, and daggers.
I know I'll survive.

You don't need to wait till you get a shroud item to use a clicky thats useful. I never use masters touch, the spell is basically useless. Show me a build who uses it, and I can show you a better option.

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 02:05 PM
You don't need to wait till you get a shroud item to use a clicky thats useful. I never use masters touch, the spell is basically useless. Show me a build who uses it, and I can show you a better option.

Oh IDK, I will keep using it on all my pure bards, sorcs, and wizzies...it's a nice little perk I think...wouldn't say it's useless....and I sure won't mind the lag spike being gone....even if it requires a bit more work.

I still to this day have a thing for qstaffs....why I do not know...I just do. :p So I am not really worried about it.

GeneralDiomedes
06-05-2010, 02:14 PM
Because so many other things in the game work according to their PnP version, right ;)
Imagine the melee uproar if Weapon Focus etc. were changed to their original description!

I believe that something should follow PnP where possible, otherwise not, based on game balance and play.

This change primarily appears to be a case of evolving tech, similiar to how Stoneskin and Protection from Energy changed when ablative behaviour became available. I'm willing to bet that if weapon modification tech was available at the time, the spell would have been coded as originally written.

Sanetri
06-05-2010, 02:31 PM
Oh you just go back to your dungeon you hear....

*chases you away with a broom...erm I mean GreatAxe after casting MT and getting proficiency with everything*

Stupid lag...would have vorp'ed yah too if the spell worked right! :p

Not being a native english speaker I'm not quite sure if you're mocking me here or not. >.<

Anyways, what was the lag like, then? Did it happen on every server?

vVAnjilaVv
06-05-2010, 02:42 PM
Not being a native english speaker I'm not quite sure if you're mocking me here or not. >.<

Anyways, what was the lag like, then? Did it happen on every server?

LOL...I thought u were being sarcastic...sorry :)

It just causes a temporary lag spike that momentarily basically locks you out of any other actions.

I bet all the people that were complaining about it wish they wouldn't have now.

Drekisen
06-05-2010, 02:50 PM
Well I finally got around to testing this on Lama with my bard......ok...little lame that it grants you proficiency with just one weapon and not at least one weapon type...I think they should be able to very easily adjust that.

Still would rather have how they intend it now tho than nothing. 10 SP per weapon....I'm not going to sweat that.

Rooks
06-05-2010, 03:13 PM
Am beginning to wonder if too many WB personnel have been added to the Update 5 team?

Pardish
06-05-2010, 03:42 PM
Am beginning to wonder if too many WB personnel have been added to the Update 5 team?

lol what? Has the WB made their stance on this issue known in a press release I missed somewhere?

+1 to you sir for the craziest most tinfoil hattiest thing I have read all day :D

Cyr
06-05-2010, 03:53 PM
Another lazy 'fix' for lag.

Why is it that all the lag issues we have just end up having us getting nerfed to address them? Turbine you did not fix the spell. You made junk.

I herby annouce my personal response to nerfgate where every lag fix is not really any fix at all and just a nerf to the abilities/mechanic which produces lag. I will not be buying any Turbine Points for at minuium six months. I'm a premium player so that means no new income from me personally for six months.

Roziel_Longblade
06-05-2010, 04:00 PM
MT is not hit as hard as people are making out since in any one quest it is unlikely that a caster will be using every weapon in his golf bag. 2 to 3 weapon sets will get a full melee caster through just about every quest. A part time caster will need even fewer changes.

It is telling that people are more concerned about MT and so little concern is given to Tensers Transformation. TT simply has not been translated well into this MMO. It is little more than MT with a +5 fort save in a lvl6 spell slot that last a fraction of the time of a lvl1 spell. Tensers is what needs a long hard look.

Ebondevil
06-05-2010, 07:57 PM
I believe that something should follow PnP where possible, otherwise not, based on game balance and play.
Sure, let me enchant some small items which I can carry around with me to get me the proficiency and I'd be happy, even if I do loose a bit of Inventory space, until then the spell is being nerfed to be worse than the PnP rules and thus should not get this change.


MT is not hit as hard as people are making out since in any one quest it is unlikely that a caster will be using every weapon in his golf bag. 2 to 3 weapon sets will get a full melee caster through just about every quest. A part time caster will need even fewer changes.
In any one dungeon I'm likely to use at least 3 different weapons, if there's Fire creatures, Cold creatures or the like around then I'll use even more.

If it worked for a group of weapons, Say Slashing, Piercing, Bludgeoning, etc. it wouldn't be quite so bad, but as it is it's a poorly implemented design and nothing but a nerf.

@vVvAiaynAvVv: If Casters shouldn't get a spell for weapon proficiencies then perhaps all spells should be made self only, all pots should be removed, and the house buffers should stop casting buffs on people. Then fighters are fighters and casters are caster and the whole game becomes much less fun. In all seriousness Fighters can benefit from spells just as much as casters can, while fighters are backed up by much higher attack bonuses for the weapons. For casters to remain useful in many cases without running out of SP it's very useful to have a decent weapon to supplement Spell damage and that will always be true as long as people can swing swords endlessly while casters run out of SP.

P.S. I don't want to just play a caster, or just play a fighter, I like mixing things up and wading into Melee while throwing spells around.

P.P.S. Pretty much the first mission in Korthos Village: Heyton's Rest, gives you a Bludgeoning Weapon and a Slashing Weapon so you can fight the undead there effectively, kinda goes to show how frequent different weapons are needed and that the dev's expect you to use multiple weapons.

maddmatt70
06-05-2010, 08:00 PM
I do not currently cast masters touch. The lag upon death or when the spell expires is not worth it in my opinion. Any change that ends the lag and makes this a viable spell is worth it in my opinion. Thank you developers for changing this.

Aurora1979
06-05-2010, 08:02 PM
with my incredible technical mind i have a solution...... that was sarcastic btw ;)

i have got a clue what causes lag or what cures it but.... is the fact that it lists every type of martial weapon in the genral chat when you cast MT not contributing to the issue?

If so, could they just remove all those... or just have the message, you're now proficent with all martial weapons.

.................. am i being far to simplistic? i suspect i must be but..... i dunno, it bugs the begeezeus out of me.

Roziel_Longblade
06-05-2010, 08:32 PM
In any one dungeon I'm likely to use at least 3 different weapons, if there's Fire creatures, Cold creatures or the like around then I'll use even more.

Yes it is a nerf that could have been avoided if they had programmed a martial weapons group at the start, but they did not... and yes nerfs suck. I just dont think it is that big of a nerf. An extra cast of a lvl1 spell between rest shrines is one half a Korthos Island amulet with the sp clicky.

It may be nice if they upped the duration by 25%-50% to make up for the nerf, but if they dont, there are are regular ships to Korthos.

Artos_Fabril
06-05-2010, 08:51 PM
It may be nice if they upped the duration by 25%-50% to make up for the nerf, but if they dont, there are are regular ships to Korthos.
That amulet is exclusive, and you can only ever get the Misery's Peak completion reward once per character in any case.

The cynic in me says that this is just another facet of the U5 nerfs, such as the ring of spell storing, bauble, and DPS nerfs, and that the end goal is to sell more Mana potions from the eStore by making encounters take longer and require more resources.

Duuk
06-05-2010, 08:58 PM
Speaking as a Sorc who uses masters touch for those times im out of mana and bust out my GS greataxe this is a huge nerf. Its not like the spell offers divine power bonuses. Casting it to enchant what is in the hands would be useless to me as until im low on mana my offhand is a skiver. If nothing else as painful as it would be allow a dropdown menu we could hotbar for the spell like fireshield but with all the choices we need for weaponry. As a battlecaster I could live with that.

learst
06-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Sure, let me enchant some small items which I can carry around with me to get me the proficiency and I'd be happy, even if I do loose a bit of Inventory space, until then the spell is being nerfed to be worse than the PnP rules and thus should not get this change.


In any one dungeon I'm likely to use at least 3 different weapons, if there's Fire creatures, Cold creatures or the like around then I'll use even more.

And you still can. If you don't like the hassle, just aim for weapons you're already proficient in. Even wizards are proficien with things like daggers, clubs etc.


If Casters shouldn't get a spell for weapon proficiencies then perhaps all spells should be made self only, all pots should be removed, and the house buffers should stop casting buffs on people. Then fighters are fighters and casters are caster and the whole game becomes much less fun. In all seriousness Fighters can benefit from spells just as much as casters can, while fighters are backed up by much higher attack bonuses for the weapons. For casters to remain useful in many cases without running out of SP it's very useful to have a decent weapon to supplement Spell damage and that will always be true as long as people can swing swords endlessly while casters run out of SP.

P.S. I don't want to just play a caster, or just play a fighter, I like mixing things up and wading into Melee while throwing spells around.


And you still can. D&D, and DDO, is all about CHOICES. That's why different characters have different abilities that complement each other. If you're a caster, you have a choice of whether advancing as a caster to improve your spells, or take a dip into melee classes if you want some melee capability. Similarly, if a fighter wants spell buffs without the caster, he has to rely on clickies (which is tedious, limited, and lower level) or take UMD. For pure casters who wants to melee, you need certain spells (which is supposed to be tedious and be limited duration)/level splash/or just go ahead and use it with penalty. Someone mentioned Tenser's Transformation, which could be tweaked and I agree with this.

And it's also about teamwork. Melee agros/protect caster, while the caster does damage/crowd control/buffs. It might not be a fair trade-off, but that's subjective depends on you. In general, casters are like steroids - huge damage/power at short bursts. While melee are consistent damage in the long run. That sucks in long dungeon runs, but then it's more of a dungeon design flaw, or maybe it's supposed to force a caster to be more prudent on what spells to cast and when to cast them.

At the end of the day, I do think that it's more of being accustomed to an easy/powerful playstyle and not willing to adapt to how things are supposed to be.

Duuk
06-05-2010, 09:55 PM
And you still can. If you don't like the hassle, just aim for weapons you're already proficient in. Even wizards are proficien with things like daggers, clubs etc.



And you still can. D&D, and DDO, is all about CHOICES. That's why different characters have different abilities that complement each other. If you're a caster, you have a choice of whether advancing as a caster to improve your spells, or take a dip into melee classes if you want some melee capability. Similarly, if a fighter wants spell buffs without the caster, he has to rely on clickies (which is tedious, limited, and lower level) or take UMD. For pure casters who wants to melee, you need certain spells (which is supposed to be tedious and be limited duration)/level splash/or just go ahead and use it with penalty. Someone mentioned Tenser's Transformation, which could be tweaked and I agree with this.


Curious, I haven't noticed MT spell description describing that it is tedious and limited duration unless 1 minute per level is limited. Likewise the purpose of this spell is to remove the profciency penalty. Tensers is a differnt kind of animal as it doubles your BAB and offers other benefits and negatives for which it is already balanced for. But then Tensers isn't being debated in this thread.


And it's also about teamwork. Melee agros/protect caster, while the caster does damage/crowd control/buffs. It might not be a fair trade-off, but that's subjective depends on you. In general, casters are like steroids - huge damage/power at short bursts. While melee are consistent damage in the long run. That sucks in long dungeon runs, but then it's more of a dungeon design flaw, or maybe it's supposed to force a caster to be more prudent on what spells to cast and when to cast them.

At the end of the day, I do think that it's more of being accustomed to an easy/powerful playstyle and not willing to adapt to how things are supposed to be.


I'm not sure you grasp the concept of combat in DDO. If casters were never meant to pick up a weapon we wouldnt have spells to remove proficiency penalties, give us full BAB, profane bonuses, etc. Part of what makes DDO appealing is the diversity to which classes can be enjoyed playstylewise.

Ebondevil
06-05-2010, 10:21 PM
If you're a caster, you have a choice of whether advancing as a caster to improve your spells, or take a dip into melee classes if you want some melee capability.

A 1 Level dip of Fighter would cost:
1x 8th Level Spell slot
1x 9th Level Spell slot
100 Spell Points
1 Metamagic Feat
2 Intelligence (and some more SP as a result)
-1 cost to all Metamagic feats' cost
1 Will Save

It would gain:
A fix to an unnecessary Nerf
A Bonus Fighter Feat
+2 Fort Save

Seriously not worth it in my opinion, I'd be better off sinking a feat into a weapon proficiency, but either way it'll take levels to achieve it or a respec, and I seriously doubt they'll give them out. This means they're either going to break all the characters I play or introduce tons of Tedium, all by changing a spell I've relied on pretty much since I started playing DDO and made a lot of use of in PnP.

Overall if this Nerf goes through I'm going to have to put up with a lot of tedium when buffing, and that's what it basically comes down to, tedium, something they shouldn't introduce.


Similarly, if a fighter wants spell buffs without the caster, he has to rely on clickies (which is tedious, limited, and lower level) or take UMD.
Or buy the buffs available after gaining enough favour, which last through different quests.

Fighters get at least +14 attack bonus over wizards without masters touch, masters touch closes the gap a little to +10.

Fighters, Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians get all Simple and Martial weapon proficiencies for Free, Bards and Rogues get all Simple and a few Martial Proficiencies for free, while Clerics and Favoured Souls get all Simple weapons for free as well as a twice the HP of a Wizard or Sorcerer and no spell failure from armour while being casters themselves.

Personally I don't think Masters touch is unreasonable when it gives All Simple and Martial Weapon proficiency for a limited duration at the cost of SP.

Uska
06-05-2010, 10:24 PM
Just have it at first level only effect what is in your hand and in what weapons are in weapon set 1. For every additional level it will effect another of your weapon slots. Fixed no?

The only lag you will suffer is entirely on your own head. If you only have 4-5 sets you swap between it shouldn't be that bad. If you have 20 sets of dual-wield weapons, well that is your own issue.

no my THF bard has several weapons she switches through its a bad change worse then what we had before might just finish her to 20 and then just use her for a bank toon now.

vVAnjilaVv
06-06-2010, 02:27 AM
Well you know what....when a fighter has the protection of displacement, the DR of stoneskin and can do DPS as quickly as a max/empowered wall of fire, can charm and army of companions....then we can talk about getting rid of house P buffs.

I see a lot of casters who complain about having it hard because they have to rely on SP so much, fact is I also see those same casters trying to run the show and use their magic everywhere on every mob...being a succesful caster is about being conservative......using the elements and terrain and monsters lesser intelligence or gullibility to your advantage.....it's not about leading the kill count.
Seriously, people who are that concerned about leading the kill count need to spend more time solo'ing and get it out of their system so that trash is out of their heads when they go to party.

Ebondevil
06-06-2010, 09:41 AM
I see a lot of casters who complain about having it hard because they have to rely on SP so much, fact is I also see those same casters trying to run the show and use their magic everywhere on every mob...being a succesful caster is about being conservative......using the elements and terrain and monsters lesser intelligence or gullibility to your advantage.....it's not about leading the kill count.
Ah right, so you want caster to just sit back and wait for groups of enemies to pile up before they bother to cast their spells and the rest of the time follow the party doing nothing, oh yippee, such fun...

Anyhow as far as I'm concerned kill count is a load of rubbish, it's not based on who does the most damage to the mob, it's based on who lands the killing blow, which mostly comes down to pure luck in teams, it's just a shiney, mostly meaningless, number and not something I care about.

Regardless, the change doesn't stop Casters from using weapons, it stops them from swapping between them without huge tedium. Such tedium should not be introduced. The game's meant to be fun and quick paced, not get added boredom and frustration thrown in for no good reason.

nbennet
06-06-2010, 09:45 AM
Well you know...

Bla bla bla

Seriously, people who are that concerned about leading the kill count need to spend more time solo'ing and get it out of their system so that trash is out of their heads when they go to party.


How is any of this related to the topic of Master's Touch?

Martial weapon proficiency (via MT) hardly turns casters into combat juggernauts. What distinguished the melee classes are things like higher base attack bonus, greater selection of feats, special abilities (like rage and sneak attack etc.) which arcane spells don't duplicate (except perhaps for Tenser's, which locks you out of casting.)

You also seem to have a very one-dimensional view of what a "caster" is. Were do melee oriented Warchanters fit in your scheme of things, for example? They are not casting maxed-emped firewalls, yet some use Master's Touch extensively. There are no pre-defined roles in DDO - ultimately a "melee" character is anyone who picks up a weapon and swings away. Some are just more effective than others.

And don't forget the change to this spell doesn't prevent characters from doing anything they couldn't already doing. It simply means more time and sp spent buffing.

Your whole "keep casters in their place" argument is totally false.

vVAnjilaVv
06-06-2010, 09:51 AM
How is any of this related to the topic of Master's Touch?

Martial weapon proficiency (via MT) hardly turns casters into combat juggernauts. What distinguished the melee classes are things like higher base attack bonus, greater selection of feats, special abilities (like rage and sneak attack etc.) which arcane spells don't duplicate (except perhaps for Tenser's, which locks you out of casting.)

You also seem to have a very one-dimensional view of what a "caster" is. Were do melee oriented Warchanters fit in your scheme of things, for example? They are not casting maxed-emped firewalls, yet some use Master's Touch extensively. There are no pre-defined roles in DDO - ultimately a "melee" character is anyone who picks up a weapon and swings away. Some are just more effective than others.

And don't forget the change to this spell doesn't prevent characters from doing anything they couldn't already doing. It simply means more time and sp spent buffing.

Your whole "keep casters in their place" argument is totally false.

Yeah and people who want every little ability easily available to their class is boring.

Sorry yeah, in general a caster is someone who sits back and let's the runts take care of most of the dirty work and wisely throws in their magical expertise with precision timing.

I mean you can always solo if you want to be the melee too and then u'll have all the time in the world to MT each weapon u need.

You know if I only played melees your statement might have merit, but I play just as many casters. Sorry, the way MT is now is an easy button, plain and simple.

guzzlr
06-06-2010, 10:12 AM
The more I play with this spell, the more I dislike the change. Obviously it changes the way I played one (yup, only one) of my characters; and frankly, I do not care for that change.

To those who feel that this change brings the spell closer to pen and paper: I agree; however, in this case- for this (non pnp) game, it does not add to my enjoyment. DDO has far more combat encounters and requires far more weapon types to be effective compared to pen and paper. DDO is not pen and paper, and that's ok. I don't want DDO to become WOW-lite, but I can live with it being based on DnD, with changes and adaptations where necessary.

To those asserting that this version brings the overpowered "melee" casters a bit back into their cages: I agree (I never felt the overpowered part, but ok). Again however, it does not add to my enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed having various weapon sets to run around with and I don't like adding needless tedium into DDO. It has too much of that now.

Ideas that would help my enjoyment:

Make the spell a single cast, higher cost spell that enchants everything in your inventory. (60 sp?) I really don't care for having to swap through 3 (newly created) weapon sets every time I shrine.

Let the enchantment last through rests/zoning. At least then I wouldn't have to cast it quite as often. This amounts to a couple less castings per session. meh...

This doesn't help with the added tedium, but a lower spell cost would help offset the change.

By the way, I do love the idea of being able to add enchantments to items. They will have to be scaled/implemented properly in order to be useful, but the basic idea is grand!

woundweaver
06-06-2010, 10:14 AM
damn, i took a short break, come back and read all this nerfing stuff coming soon. i love masters touch for my caster soloing. but this nerf is over the top, and definately unneccesary, and a complete waste of dev time and money. theres an old saying...."if it aint broke, dont fix it". sound familiar?? everything i read so far concerning update 5 has me looking for the door, and glad i build motorcycles as my other hobby. at least bikes cant hold a nerf bat, so im sure ill always be safe there...lol.

seriously, ive been around a bit, and have seen and been one of the doomsayers about many things. but update 5 is gonna be the killer of a great game, and it will lose alot of great friends and players. this whole update is about nerfing alot of things that just arent broken, while the things that are, and have been for months to years have no mention of being fixed anywhere. what compelled them to waste time and money to make a change to a great spell that needed no fixing? need i mention monks?? connection issues? i havent decided to quit yet, but im 99.9% positive im out when my sub runs out. im all for fixing lag. kudos for making a public effort to try. but its just a little too late now. we as players, and vips been screaming about it for the whole time ive been here. you decided to announce a "maybe" fix for lag, with a whole games worth of nerfs, all in one update. all im saying is alot of founders, hardcore vets, and some really great personalities and friends have already left. and im here, wondering why as im typing this, that im the idiot thats still here??

i know this post wont change a thing. im not that naive to think so. as i said, ive been around a little bit, so i know how turbine works. this isnt a dooom!! post, just real feelings about where this game was, and where its going in a few weeks. ive already had no desire to log in to the game the last week and a half. all love and desire is lost, and my wife is much, much happier...lol. so, good luck, and i hope the game survives, and things get fixed that need fixed, instead of these unnecessary changes to things that dont need any changing. this will prolly be the last post till im gone, quickly and quietly. its been real, its been fun, but it aint been real fun

Ebondevil
06-06-2010, 10:25 AM
Sorry yeah, in general a caster is someone who sits back and let's the runts take care of most of the dirty work and wisely throws in their magical expertise with precision timing.

Maybe you Should tell that to Gandalf:
http://www.heavenlyswords.com/images/P/LOTR_Glamdring_Sword.gif

Or Elminster:
http://www.pathguy.com/fr_elminster.jpg

Or the Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) or Perhaps the Bladesinger (http://www.iourn.com/dnd/classes/prestigeclasses/bladesinger.htm)?

Did it occur to you that the reason there are so many Enchanted Longswords in the D&D Universe is perhaps because there's a lot of Elven Wizards?

Perhaps Rangers should have their spells taken away from them since they have full BAB progression, and perhaps clerics should have their BAB progression nerfed because they're full casters?

There's a long history of casters wielding Melee weapons, there's a number of D&D Prestige classes based around the idea, basically it's something people want to do and something they want to enjoy, just because you don't agree with Masters Touch doesn't mean that it should be nerfed to be tedious and boring.

azrael4h
06-06-2010, 10:29 AM
Sigh, not this "method" of fixing lag again? You can imagine if they ran a race car team...

Driver after test run: "Hey guys, great car. I did notice a little instability at high speeds though, maybe you could have a look at that?"

Turbine Chief Engineer: "No problem, I can adjust the rev limiter to kick in earlier to reduce top speed"

A race car designed by Turbine would have a 30mph top speed. And require a transmission rebuild every 5 laps. After each transmission rebuild, they'd retune the engine to have less power, lowering the top speed until it's about 5mph. At which point, the race is long over, and the fans have long since moved on.

Devonian
06-06-2010, 12:49 PM
One thing to note, on a purely pragmatic level. This isn't just going to inconvenience Wizards, oh no. If you make it harder for us to achieve what might be called a Baseline of expected competence, we're not going to give up that level. No ones going to shrug and stop using the spell, all that will happen is we have to spend more of your time buffing our selves when you group with us, and have less SP for other things. We'll spend longer buffing after shrines, and need to use them more often. Less Blur, less hastes, more sparing use of all other spells.

azrael4h
06-06-2010, 03:45 PM
Since Fighters should only be Fighters, and Casters can only be casters according to some here, then no one should be able to use any clickies of spells that they couldn't cast normally.

No more abusing Divine Power, Barkskin pots, etc... Fighters should be fighters, and just swing weapons, and hope that a friendly Cleric or healing FvS comes along to heal them and buff them along with Wizards. UMD can work as before, just make it so that without UMD clickie items can't be used unless you can cast the spell normally.

Bet that would cause an uproar and a half. But it would only be fair, as if it's not "right" for an arcane caster to gain easy access to martial weapon proficiencies then it's equally not right for a Barbarian to gain easy access to any arcane or divine spells. Both should have to multiclass, or for the Barb max UMD, caster has this horribly nerfed, almost utterly useless MT.

This was D&D based, now a WoW clone. Classes in D&D are not to be pidgeon-holed into specific roles, which is what the nerf to MT does and the apologists' desire. It turns DDO into Shaiya, or every other cheap, no-budget garbage F2P game that aren't worth the time to install. It's bad enough we don't get Eldritch Knight or other melee caster options.

Cyr has the best response, though I have to spread rep around before giving more to him for it; since DDO is turning into Shaiya with a different name, I'll start treating it like I did Shaiya the brief time that I played it; I'll play, and never do anything but play. Not one red cent will Turbine see from me again. Eventually, I'll find a better MMO (won't be hard, the way things are going) and I'll talk my guild into leaving. I may go back to EUO instead; it's dev actually listens to his players, and the whole game is very community driven. Much of the content was even made by fans. I only left due to a two year period that I ran linux only.

Turbine: looking to join other great companies that didn't listen to it's customers like 3D0 and Epyx and Midway.

Whats bad, is that a simple +4 BAB bonus on non-prof weapons would achieve the same result, eliminating the -4 penalty to using weapons without proficiencies while eliminating the lag caused by updating multiple feats. No touching feats at all, just a flat +4 bonus, make it untyped so that it stacks, and make it only target the caster. Simple, effective, and NOT AN UNNECESSARY NERF. I'm sure, with the numerous +x bonuses that spells can give of various types, that Turbine has someone who can figure that one out. The only thing would be a check to ensure it didn't give the bonus to weapon types the caster had prof in. 1 check, and a simple addition afterward. No adding or removing feats.

Whats even worse, is I have a vague picture of how I'd code it, though without knowing how things are handled in DDO I won't bother fleshing that out. Must be poorly optimized though, to require massive nerfs to everything. Of course, I'm more in the school of thought that the nerfs are a cheap ploy to boost store revenues (more sp/hp pots for more drawn out grinds, more grinding to replace now-worthless gear, respecs to move to a more mildly gimped build etc). Lag (which interestingly disappeared completely when I upgraded to a new desktop, even though I still have the same modem, router, and even cat 5 cable) is just used as a convenient excuse, as well as bait for apologists.

Valindria
06-07-2010, 11:11 AM
I think the change should be this:


Ok That is kind of how I envisioned it only I see it like this:

1. You cast spell - You get the masters touch buff icon in the upper right
2. Any martial weapons equipped from that point get the Martial buff with the current duration*


So I have level 20 bard. I have rapiers equipped and cast the spell (extended). I get the buff/icon with a 40 minutes (1per level X2 for extend). Now I swap to my portal beater True Chaos Great Axe of Greater Construct Bane. The great axe gains martial prof with a timer of 39. Ten minutes later we win part 1 of shroud and move on to part 2. (Assume I did not rest and the buff is still active). At that point I swap to a Heavy Pick and light pick. Both weapons get the martial proficiency with 29minutes remaining.

If it did that EVERYONE would be happy.

*Edit: If you had a something equipped that needed the feat it would get it when the spell is cast. If you switch to something else it would get it then. It might increase a little bit of lag when weapon swapping but a user could cast the spell, hit 1,2,3,4,5 to switch to the 5 weapon sets they use most and then move on.

I forgot to mention/ask above:

What happens If you rest/finish the quest? Does the timer remain on the item?

Going with my example above, I see it kind of like this

I rest after beating part 3 of shroud.

1. I no longer have Masters Touch so I will not be proficient with any weapons not previously equipped (you know, unless I have the feat).
2. Any weapons will still have the old buff on them. So my great axe and picks would have say 5 minutes left on them. I could equip with no penalty
3. If I cast the spell again, I get the buff/icon. Now when I swap to my greataxe it checks:



1. The masters touch spell is active (on user)
2. I am not proficient with the weapon (Great Axe on drow bard)
3. Weapon gets a new MT timer (IF NVL(item's masters touch duration, 0) < Spell Buff Duration THEN weapon gets the masters touch duration)


I hope it works something like that.

vVAnjilaVv
06-07-2010, 01:51 PM
I do have to admit, it would be nice if they at least slightly adjusted it so that when u buff with one weapon type then u have proficiency with all like weapons until the buff timer wears down.....

Like I grab my +5 Silver Falchion of Pure Good, cast masters touch...now I should be proficient with Falchions in general until the spell is gone.

Either way I am still grateful to have a source of being proficient with martial weapons......but it would be a nice little add in.

Might I add removing the shield proficiency and being able to hand a weapon to someone else part as neither one of those aspects are going to be used much.

KillEveryone
06-08-2010, 02:15 AM
I don't think they will ever fix this to work in a satisfying manner.

I love and hate this spell but I can live without it.

Unfortunately I have to splash something to get all the martial weapons since taking a feat only gets you that one weapon but that is how I will avoid this spell now.

asphodeli
06-08-2010, 03:03 AM
Wonder if they can splice the "centered" code from Monks and apply that to the weapon proficiencies on a wizard. That way, if Master's Touch is cast, simply enable the weapon proficiencies. I think this is not possible though, I vaguely recall something about the monks having proficiencies in dagger but being not centered when equipped, and the devs didn't respond to that. Still, I can't see any solution where it is easier on network load than this. :(

Dendrix
06-08-2010, 05:15 AM
Really, big deal.......10 sp a weapon and it's good till next shrine.....I mean how many weapons do you actually switch to, if it's that many maybe life is too complicated anyways.


12 Weapons. And it's extended. That's 240sp. I'm sorry no Greater Heroism or Blur for you, I don't have the spell points to waste on you, I've just used up 1/3 of them on enspelling my weapons.

Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,

Now I do my normal buffing...
Now we can go.

vVAnjilaVv
06-08-2010, 06:35 AM
12 Weapons. And it's extended. That's 240sp. I'm sorry no Greater Heroism or Blur for you, I don't have the spell points to waste on you, I've just used up 1/3 of them on enspelling my weapons.

Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,
Oh and can you wait please. I'm switching weapons in and casting Masters Touch,

Now I do my normal buffing...
Now we can go.

Oh no's....whatever will I do without ur GH and Blur....plz...save it for a newb that thinks they have to have them or needs them.

As a caster u need 12 different naturally non-proficient weapons at once.....O.O......that just says right there how exploitive the spell is as it stands right now.

And please stop comparing MT with clickies...we all know most of the useful clickies are something u have to grind for or pay a lot of plat for, or last such a short amount of time they are far from being overpowered.

ddoer
06-08-2010, 06:59 AM
Terrible price to pay for fixing the lag this spell caused. Gimme back the lag.

it's not the lag but casters are overpowered when using melee weapons that why there is a nerf.



Except for when you have multiple weapons that you don't have equipped. It does affect shields now, and is much closer to the source material, but it is weaker if you have a golf bag of stuff.

Edit: You can also now Master's Touch an item and hand it off to someone else in the party, which is an interesting bonus to the spell.


404 was incorrect.

The version of Master's Touch on Lamannia buffs both weapons (or a weapon and a shield) that you have equipped at the time of casting to grant proficiency in themselves. (This does mean that if one is, say, a kukri, you can equip an unenchanted kukri in your off hand and you'll be proficient in both.)

You can do anything you like with those items afterwards (unequip them, hand them to someone else, whatever) and those items will retain the buff until it runs out.

I do understand the problem that arises now when you have more than two weapons that you want to enchant, or multiple two handed weapons.


Thanks Eladrin. It's a nerf but such change makes the game more align to dnd rules so I would accept it. Passing a master touched item to another person is an interesting use case even though I don't think it has any practical value.

Scraap
06-08-2010, 07:05 AM
disclaimer - Honestly don't think the proposed solution's that bad, but then, my wiz sticks to q-staff, so meh take that for what it's worth. that being said:

Looked into the current implementation alongside the scheduled rebuff code for paly auras, maybe? What's it, once every 5 seconds or so it's re-applied? (granted, that would cut out the 'hand it to a friend' feature, but lets face it, that's one of those side effects that not having made it live, folks won't miss as much.) Not quite PnP, not quite current live, but a bit more pragmatic of a halfway point, I should think.

Gulnar13
06-08-2010, 07:21 AM
Does this "enchant" wear off in a antimagic field/phlat device/beholder antimagic field?

If yes... it suck, but it WAS needed. Casting master touch and a pair of buff, and then getting inside a phlatt device was a near death experience, just fort the lag that it caused. One time i did whole LoD and died on Mentau because i entered the phlat device where he stand on, got lag-spiked -> stunned -> killed.

If no... well, now we, WF casters, can down beholder from short range too!

And PnP fidelity is always a good thing, IMHO.

Qindark
06-08-2010, 08:28 AM
Edit: You can also now Master's Touch an item and hand it off to someone else in the party, which is an interesting bonus to the spell.

I don't know why everyone is glazing over this, and the hint about adding other enchanments. Cast MT on your primary weapon, then have an option to add fire damage when fighting ice mephits? Now you have to fight fire mephits? replace the fire with frost. Talk about cutting down on the weapons you have to carry..this would be the ticket.

Ebondevil
06-08-2010, 08:35 AM
And PnP fidelity is always a good thing, IMHO.

PnP fidelity is all well and good when you can use the PnP work arounds as well, like enchanting items to let you use the spell, or Antimagic fields suppress all Magical effects instead of wiping out buffs, meaning gear and Beholder Rays gets suppressed as well, and buffs return when you leave the Antimagic area. At no point should defensive buffs be unavailable when a beholder's Ray lands on you.

I'm all for PnP fidelity, but I'm against the amount of tedium this change will introduce.

I'd be happy enough if Masters Touch gave the caster proficiency in the weapon type being carried when the spell was cast, would at least mean the caster could swap between different weapons of the same type allowing for a reasonable golf bag and much less frustration when using the spell, it should also reduce the amount of lag when the spell ends as it would only be a couple of proficiencies instead of all Simple/Martial.

Valindria
06-08-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't know why everyone is glazing over this, and the hint about adding other enchanments. Cast MT on your primary weapon, then have an option to add fire damage when fighting ice mephits? Now you have to fight fire mephits? replace the fire with frost. Talk about cutting down on the weapons you have to carry..this would be the ticket.

Because passing a weapon is not helpful. Maybe if the duration was 1 hour (2 hours extended) per charater level somone could take advantage of it.

"Guys wait up I have to trade a weapon to get enchanted and then get it back"


...I get the feeling that no one listens to the players when it comes to feedback.

Solymnar
06-08-2010, 11:25 AM
Oh no's....whatever will I do without ur GH and Blur....plz...save it for a newb that thinks they have to have them or needs them.

As a caster u need 12 different naturally non-proficient weapons at once.....O.O......that just says right there how exploitive the spell is as it stands right now.

And please stop comparing MT with clickies...we all know most of the useful clickies are something u have to grind for or pay a lot of plat for, or last such a short amount of time they are far from being overpowered.

Anjila,

while it will nearly always be true that x class does not "need" y ability, spell, etc. to be functionally useful I feel you are intentionally missing the point that most people are making.

More viable options = more fun.

The 1-2 seconds of lag when casting this spell while buffing is less time spent than casting it on a second weapon set. Thus the remodeling of this spell if you use more than a single weapon set will cost a player (and their group waiting) more time. Thus in terms of solving the lag problem (since most people who actually use MT will have more than one weapon set) it makes it worse. This has already been noted by quite a few people.

Wizzies using spells conservitively if casting buffs on the whole party have little mana to work with. MT gives them some extra tools and build/style options to get around that. Being able to more actively participate in party adventures = more fun. It does not give a wiz/sorc +10 base attack bonus nor even bring it up to par with rog/cler/fvs so its rather hard to consider this remotely overpowered. This has been noted already.

You're repeated response is "but you don't need it! I don't need it!"

And you would be absolutely correct, frankly clerics do not need turn undead to function either, my cleric almost always uses turn attempts to cure status ailments or heal via enhancements...but to be honest he also doesn't "need" those abilities to be functional and useful to a group, however it does make him more fun to have those viable/useful options.

To my knowledge not all wiz/sorcs use this spell as it currently stands because it just doesn't fit their playstyle/build etc. Now explain how it makes DDO more fun and enjoyable to nerf a currently not overpowered ability so that very few people bother to use it?

In general having abilities/spells/etc. in game that are functionally useful (but not so overpowered that EVERYONE playing that class gets them no matter what) increases options which in general increases the fun of a class. If you have spells or abilties that are essentially worthless that practically no one ever uses beyond the role playing aspect then those spells and abilities for all practical purposes do not exist and contribute nothing to the game or the player's experience beyond being something extra to have to sort through while assigning useful abilities/spells/etc.


I do agree with the blind factual logic of your statements. I just don't feel the currently proposed change positively impacts the game, it wasn't needed for class balance and it is unlikely to reduce the time spent buffing by eliminating the trivial lag bump when casting it due to having to cast it more than once after said change.


From a programming side if the tiny lag spike is honestly a problem for some people I would suggest having the spell enchant all defined weapon sets but flag those items as no-trade for the durration of the enchantement.

That way as a dev tool you can still work future spells to only enchant items in your hands etc. but not flag them as trade and so on or allow more options without having to program in an inventory search for all weapons/sheilds every time the spell is cast.

Alternatively add in proficiency with the weapon types that are already in defined weaponsets of the caster.

Alternatively just leave it alone and take the knowledge of how to use spells etc. to temporarily enchant gear with for future ideas.

If it is simply too difficult to fix this spell in a way that doesn't nerf it strongly I would suggest at the very least increasing its durration or granting proficiency with the currently held items instead of enchanting said items themselves.

While I personally only use two martial weapons on my wizzy (a greatsword and a longbow) so its not a massive nerf to me (as anjila says "I will live"), I do feel the change needlessly reduces the fun...and isn't that the whole damn point of playing a game?:D

Angelus_dead
06-10-2010, 09:31 PM
(Most of the "add an enchant" effects specify that they don't play nice with weapons that already possess enchantments, and we'll have to figure out what we want to do with that.)
Eh, you can just do it like the Paladin's Holy Sword spell, but minus a specific material component. Just deduct a generic material component and assume that the character can mount the spell on one of the numerous weapons she's carrying, and create a temporary object in inventory.

Corstaad
06-11-2010, 08:17 AM
This is a dumb fix. I guess I'm the only one that uses different weapons for different monsters. I cant believe there isnt some sort of backlash on this whack mole fix. Just fix the lag spike I dont need a excuse of coding problem.

Mellkor
06-11-2010, 09:20 AM
Please give this spell to FvS Lord of Blades instead of the shield spell. It would be more appropiate I think. And more useful.

honkuimushi
06-11-2010, 09:41 AM
Please give this spell to FvS Lord of Blades instead of the shield spell. It would be more appropiate I think. And more useful.

I suppose you could use it for mauls and such. Is that what you want it for? I'd figure a LoB FvS would want to be using a greatsword 90% of the time and they're already granted proficiency in that.

Mellkor
06-11-2010, 09:48 AM
I meant as a capstone, but ya I often use other weapons, like vs undead, certain mobs, etc.