PDA

View Full Version : Aracane Archer Hate



Drakmer
06-02-2010, 03:21 PM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

grodon9999
06-02-2010, 03:34 PM
People have to right to chose to play with whomever they want to play with for whatever reason. Play with different people.

Cupcake
06-02-2010, 06:01 PM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

Unfortunately, Grodon is correct. So many people that run the shroud and other raids have a mind set that only certain types of classes etc. are allowed in their raids.

Why do you think my lvl 19 Sorc, Shots, has never run the shroud.

People don't want two casters, and since I am not proficient in the Shroud to be the sole caster, I wont join one unless there are people I know.

I have an arance archer as well that is built for damage but people in this game are so anti ranged ranger its not even funny.

Find a guild that suits you and your playstyle and doesn't care that you are a RANGER.

Hellllboy
06-03-2010, 09:41 AM
I dont melee:(


Why?

sidgarret
06-03-2010, 10:14 AM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

No problem mate. You probably played with either people new to shroud or the gang that needs to look through your inventory and check My DDO.

Crusaders of Justice are doing Shroud runs every tuesday. We usually have 2 groups which we split even and have a few spots in each group free. If you are on keep an eye up - we have done it with several casters and people without bossbeaters. So if there is a spot you are more than welcome to tag along.

I have got the question about my equipment once - my answer - if u have to ask me about my gear u are obviously not good enough:p

Oh - and we do complete our runs. We dont run it to set record time - we do it and help each other. Probably half of us have done 200-300 plus shrouds in Europe before we came over here and can take new people along.

Krag
06-03-2010, 10:19 AM
I have got the question about my equipment once - my answer - if u have to ask me about my gear u are obviously not good enough:p

That was not elitist enough. A proper argument is:
If you don't know who I am, you are not good enough! :p

Crazyfruit
06-03-2010, 10:56 AM
I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg

That leader was very inexperienced.

The shroud is a little different than other quests in that archers can get people killed. This is because they (played well) do much MORE damage than other characters. The boss there has a unique way of handling it - trying to throw meteor swarms at you.

The problem is that those meteor swarms will hit all the little melees poking him for 200+ damage a spell, and killing them if whoever is tossing out heals isn't paying attention.

Good leaders take all the rangers but ask them to wait at least 20 seconds before firing :) The fastest shrouds I've ever done were with mostly ranged people (including casters - something else those same leaders might throw a fit about). Most people on this server are new to the game and learning from each other, with the first person to show them the quest only doing it one way... or reading some guide they saw online as if it was religious text.

Don't worry about it :)

I'll second seeing if you can go with the Crusaders of Justice sometime, they're really nice folks.

Cupcake - Usually whenever I do it the clerics handle the crowd control instead. Ask the people leading them what they expect, you might be surprised :)

Missing_Minds
06-03-2010, 11:01 AM
Good leaders take all the rangers but ask them to wait at least 20 seconds before firing

Rangers may shoot once Harry is surrounded, but standard attack only. 20 seconds later, many shot may be used.

This has been a standard practice of mine back when the cap was level 16.

unscythe
06-03-2010, 01:14 PM
There isn't alot of experience with good AA, and there are tons of them that do not see what effect their kiting does. So by doing more damage then the many melee around and then kiting, you lose dps since they do not get to hit. So in the aggregate there is less dps due to a AA not knowing. Melee parties are also made because it works, and usually when something works, people stick with it. So the melee with boss beaters is one example of somethign people can trust. Plus players do not know what players do or have, etc. all the time, so having a bottom line to make sure a success happens and not having to carry the party is another thing alot of new leaders deal with.

Invalidism
06-04-2010, 12:14 PM
There isn't alot of experience with good AA, and there are tons of them that do not see what effect their kiting does. So by doing more damage then the many melee around and then kiting, you lose dps since they do not get to hit. So in the aggregate there is less dps due to a AA not knowing.

There are way too many AA's on Orien that quest and don't know how to play the class right. Some of the worst fellow AAs I have ever met only used the silver bow. Some of the best AAs I have ever met only ever used the silver bow. It's a matter of skill.

Carpone
06-08-2010, 11:02 AM
That leader was very inexperienced.
Just the opposite. Tempest melee does alot more sustained DPS during a boss fight than an arcane archer. Good leaders don't choose to bring less DPS to a raid -- and the healers thank them for not having to chain chug mana pots. No one in their right mind wants 3 rounds to Harry in part 4, but it happens all too often because leaders made poor choices. One rounding Harry on normal shouldn't be as rare of an event as it is.

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 11:19 AM
Just the opposite. Tempest melee does alot more sustained DPS during a boss fight than an arcane archer. Good leaders don't choose to bring less DPS to a raid -- and the healers thank them for not having to chain chug mana pots. No one in their right mind wants 3 rounds to Harry in part 4, but it happens all too often because leaders made poor choices. One rounding Harry on normal shouldn't be as rare of an event as it is.

Some people want 2-3 rounds on harry in part 4 because they don't want to deal with lag and then have their healers do the pray and spray method of healing vs. controlled mana healing.
Also consider the fact that Mass Heal only hits six people. You get a group larger than that and someone won't get the spell. (I think they have a fix for this coming with U5.)

A singular AA using a greater bane bow can take out two portals in the time that it takes a group to take out 1 portal. I did this myself last night. While yes, not sustainable, how fast do you want Harry taken down? I'm not calling it ultimate by any means.
FYI, this same group took out part 4 in one round as well.

Iambeastx
06-08-2010, 11:24 AM
Some people want 2-3 rounds on harry in part 4 because they don't want to deal with lag and then have their healers do the pray and spray method of healing vs. controlled mana healing.
Also consider the fact that Mass Heal only hits six people. You get a group larger than that and someone won't get the spell. (I think they have a fix for this coming with U5.)

A singular AA using a greater bane bow can take out two portals in the time that it takes a group to take out 1 portal. I did this myself last night. While yes, not sustainable, how fast do you want Harry taken down? I'm not calling it ultimate by any means.
FYI, this same group took out part 4 in one round as well.

What really? Why would they not want a 1 rounder! (lag not included)

sfi72
06-08-2010, 11:28 AM
Some people want 2-3 rounds on harry in part 4 because they don't want to deal with lag and then have their healers do the pray and spray method of healing vs. controlled mana healing.
Also consider the fact that Mass Heal only hits six people. You get a group larger than that and someone won't get the spell. (I think they have a fix for this coming with U5.)

A singular AA using a greater bane bow can take out two portals in the time that it takes a group to take out 1 portal. I did this myself last night. While yes, not sustainable, how fast do you want Harry taken down? I'm not calling it ultimate by any means.
FYI, this same group took out part 4 in one round as well.

So your saying you took out 2 portals in 20-25 seconds? Not likely.

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 11:45 AM
So your saying you took out 2 portals in 20-25 seconds? Not likely.

Add in the run time it took for the group to get to the next portal. Yes, likely, esp if 20s are nice. And my luck for 20s suck.

Nerveya
06-08-2010, 11:52 AM
Not to be completely cliche or anything, but post a video or it didn't happen. Not being derogatory, I'm merely curious to see what an AA can actually do because, not going to lie, I'm pretty much one of those people that don't allow pure bow rangers into my shroud groups. Maybe it'll change my opinion and those on the forum if you do... though considering I've had shroud level AAs in the past, I thoroughly doubt it.

Iambeastx
06-08-2010, 12:50 PM
Not to be completely cliche or anything, but post a video or it didn't happen. Not being derogatory, I'm merely curious to see what an AA can actually do because, not going to lie, I'm pretty much one of those people that don't allow pure bow rangers into my shroud groups. Maybe it'll change my opinion and those on the forum if you do... though considering I've had shroud level AAs in the past, I thoroughly doubt it.

All he needs is manyshot and some lucky 20's with his slay arrows.
20's = 500 damage and bow effects and base damage.

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 01:02 PM
Not to be completely cliche or anything, but post a video or it didn't happen. Not being derogatory, I'm merely curious to see what an AA can actually do because, not going to lie, I'm pretty much one of those people that don't allow pure bow rangers into my shroud groups. Maybe it'll change my opinion and those on the forum if you do... though considering I've had shroud level AAs in the past, I thoroughly doubt it.

If you want to be a hater, no issue for me. I perfer playing with people interested in having fun rather than determining how others should play their characters.

You have the same level of ability to form the groups in the manner you wish as do I.
I may be ranged spec'd and geared, but I'm not an idiot either. Melee weapons get pulled out often.

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 01:05 PM
All he needs is manyshot and some lucky 20's with his slay arrows.
20's = 500 damage and bow effects and base damage.

If you noticed I never denied that. My ranger is also pure and construct is a favored enemy. Before slayer arrows and just force arrows I could still drop the portals pretty good I think the average was the portal would be half dead before the group would get to it.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-08-2010, 01:19 PM
So your saying you took out 2 portals in 20-25 seconds? Not likely.

From what I hear there are spots where you can range more than one portal at a time with Improved Precise Shot.

Carpone
06-08-2010, 02:14 PM
If you want to be a hater, no issue for me. I perfer playing with people interested in having fun rather than determining how others should play their characters.
You boast you can solo two portals within 20 seconds (a conservative time for a PUG). When people say prove it, you call them haters. You aren't adding to your credibility. If you want AA to get respect, start with showing some proof they can contribute meaningfully. You have every bad AA on the server working against you.

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 02:28 PM
You boast you can solo two portals within 20 seconds (a conservative time for a PUG). When people say prove it, you call them haters. You aren't adding to your credibility. If you want AA to get respect, start with showing some proof they can contribute meaningfully. You have every bad AA on the server working against you.

I never stated a numerical time frame now did I?

I stated that in the run I did last night, in the time period it took for the group to kill the portal and run to the next, that "next" one was dead. Note, I was shooting the 2nd portal and the 3rd at the same time. Group was on the second and then ran to the third. It also takes me about 2-4 seconds to verify shot line up before activating manyshot.

This same group also took out harry in one round, barely, but they did it.

I did not clock the time. Rolling 20s make and break this.

Pre slaying arrows, and just using force arrows I could drop portal 3 to about half in this same time frame.

You can hate, you can believe, or go the step further and try it out for yourself.

As for cred, why should I care about trying to get cred with a hater that has already admitted to being prejudice against something? It isn't worth my time.

Carpone
06-08-2010, 02:36 PM
I never stated a numerical time frame now did I?
...
This same group also took out harry in one round, barely, but they did it.
If the DPS was high enough to almost one-round Harry, then 20-25 seconds is a conservative time to destroy a portal for them. Therefore you directly implied you could destroy TWO portals within 20-25 seconds.


You can hate, you can believe, or go the step further and try it out for yourself.
I'd never play an AA with the lack of sustained DPS they have. I build characters for elite/epic content, not farming normal content.


As for cred, why should I care about trying to get cred with a hater that has already admitted to being prejudice against something? It isn't worth my time.
Translate: I bragged about something that I can't prove with math and refuse to make a video because it would prove I was a liar.

Nerveya
06-08-2010, 06:09 PM
If you want to be a hater, no issue for me. I perfer playing with people interested in having fun rather than determining how others should play their characters.

You have the same level of ability to form the groups in the manner you wish as do I.
I may be ranged spec'd and geared, but I'm not an idiot either. Melee weapons get pulled out often.

Maybe you're missing my point here... I never intended to be derogatory at all. I'm not a hater of AA's, I just recognize that 97% or more of them are not able to match up to other classes on portal times and Harry DPS. Maybe you didn't read it correctly but I, myself, have made a pure AA and been through shroud and I can say that even with a lot of 20s it's difficult to even achieve half of what you're describing w/ the best gear you can get (or damn near close). After 100-150 or so shroud completions (and countless reg shard farm runs), I can honestly say that what you're saying is very unbelievable.

I merely asked for you to post numbers or a video to prove me wrong so I could cut AAs some slack if I was being unfair by not letting them in before an interrogation and/or MyDDO'ing them to check what's up. If I had my AA with her anarchic burst of greater bane still, I'd go and test it out. Sadly, I deleted her when I realized I was just fooling myself into thinking I was the best DPS I could make but that is neither here nor there.

So, like I said before, post something and then we'll take your word for it. You have every bit of a bad rep atm with all the subpar/terrible AAs Orien has to offer working against you. Prove us wrong.

Phidius
06-08-2010, 10:15 PM
I never stated a numerical time frame now did I?

I stated that in the run I did last night, in the time period it took for the group to kill the portal and run to the next, that "next" one was dead. Note, I was shooting the 2nd portal and the 3rd at the same time. Group was on the second and then ran to the third. It also takes me about 2-4 seconds to verify shot line up before activating manyshot.

This same group also took out harry in one round, barely, but they did it.


If the DPS was high enough to almost one-round Harry, then 20-25 seconds is a conservative time to destroy a portal for them. Therefore you directly implied you could destroy TWO portals within 20-25 seconds.


DPS against portals != DPS against Harry

It's not even a good indication...





You can hate, you can believe, or go the step further and try it out for yourself.

I'd never play an AA with the lack of sustained DPS they have. I build characters for elite/epic content, not farming normal content.


Hate it is, then...





As for cred, why should I care about trying to get cred with a hater that has already admitted to being prejudice against something? It isn't worth my time.

Translate: I bragged about something that I can't prove with math and refuse to make a video because it would prove I was a liar.

Translate: I have already decided what I think about you and your Arcane Archers - now stay outta my Shrouds!

Phidius
06-08-2010, 10:18 PM
/sarcasm
Gee, Missing_Minds - why don't you get out there and play DDO? I mean, you've been around since 2006, have a special title, and can pass out Neg Rep with impunity... obviously you've been spending all of your time on the forums, and not enough time in the game to know what's good and what's not.

Sheesh! :D

/sarcasm off

Missing_Minds
06-08-2010, 10:24 PM
So, like I said before, post something and then we'll take your word for it. You have every bit of a bad rep atm with all the subpar/terrible AAs Orien has to offer working against you. Prove us wrong.

I don't do videos, and should I post any screen caps, what would that prove? You, Carpone, or someone like him would just say that the party help to fake the shots.

Why bother? Unlike Carpone, I don't run the latest epeen build. I don't have fun with grind.

You have the choice to believe me or not, as I have stated.

Carpone
06-09-2010, 12:52 PM
You won't even post the theoretical math behind your flimsy claim. There are plenty of DPS spreadsheets and other tools available in the class and combat forums. Plug in your numbers and post them. The burden is on you to prove it, not us to believe you.


I don't run the latest epeen build. I don't have fun with grind.
You admit playing a sub-optimal build, yet you're claiming superior DPS. It just doesn't add up. Choosing AA over Tempest is like an arcane choosing not to take Rage and Haste because they dont want to be buffbots. (Laugh, but I've met more than a fair share of sorcerers on this server with that attitude.)

You claim you hate the grind, but you're in The Shroud. It's the biggest grind in the game! Greensteel Holy/Acid Burst/Acid Blast weapons are 24 large ingredients. Every class can greatly benefit from at least two Greensteel accessories (at least one of which is going to be 24 larges as well), which means a minimum of 20 completions to cleanse one of them. That doesn't include all the non-completion farming runs you do because you don't want to spend a year real-time to craft all that stuff.

Choose to play however you want. You shouldn't be surprised when you get rejected for your choices though.

Cupcake
06-09-2010, 01:06 PM
LOL...I feel like I am stepping into hot water here.

I have known Missing quite a long time. I was in a guild with him for awhile.

Until I quit playing.

Missing has been one of the most influential and knowledgable people that I know about dungeons and dragons.

He is no liar. He is no faker. When he states something for himself, I know that it is fact because I have been witness to his playstyle.

As for the shroud and Missing, I cannot comment since I have not been there with him.

I am just a bit peeved with some of you for calling him a Liar. Missing is no Liar.

You may not agree with what he says he did or did not do, but that does not make him a liar.

Crann
06-10-2010, 11:16 AM
LOL...I feel like I am stepping into hot water here.

I have known Missing quite a long time. I was in a guild with him for awhile.

Until I quit playing.

Missing has been one of the most influential and knowledgable people that I know about dungeons and dragons.

He is no liar. He is no faker. When he states something for himself, I know that it is fact because I have been witness to his playstyle.

As for the shroud and Missing, I cannot comment since I have not been there with him.

I am just a bit peeved with some of you for calling him a Liar. Missing is no Liar.

You may not agree with what he says he did or did not do, but that does not make him a liar.

^That.

Crann
06-10-2010, 11:22 AM
You won't even post the theoretical math behind your flimsy claim. There are plenty of DPS spreadsheets and other tools available in the class and combat forums. Plug in your numbers and post them. The burden is on you to prove it, not us to believe you.

The burden is on you to believe him if you want.....I really don't think he needs your validation. Not sure where this is coming from, I've run with you, and think you a pretty solid guy. I think the water here on Orien is getting to yah :)

People been doing this long before we come along, the sense of entitlement and elitism that gets displayed by my fellow 10 monthers in the Orien end game is kinda amusing.

Phidius
06-10-2010, 11:35 AM
...
Choose to play however you want. You shouldn't be surprised when you get rejected for your choices though.

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/6515/original/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

Cupcake
06-10-2010, 02:10 PM
http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/6515/original/jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg

That...........is just......wrong LOL

kcalbyz
06-16-2010, 03:34 PM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

Well I shared a similar fate as you had a couple of months back. I in fact started a thread as well:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2912762#post2912762

Plenty of useful information inside that thread so you should read it.

Well 2 months later, I am proud to say I have done my 12th Shroud completions and have crafted 1 weapon and 2 accessories. There will be groups leaders that are picky and there will be others who are more lenient. Join those and give your best.

And to those who said you have sucky DPS....challenge them to a PvP in Wayward Lobster and see if it is true or not. ;)

1 of the quotes from the thread I have started which is funny:



If someone refuses a level 19 character from a normal vale raid, it's like he's insulting himself and all the members of the group, by implying that they're not good enough to carry along a weaker character. If the group is decent then they should be able to beat those raids even if half the group randomly disconnects.

charredrex
06-21-2010, 09:03 AM
I don't hate Arcane Archers. I think it's a great concept. Like everything in this game though, the Arcane Archers abilities are entirely situational.

Let's look at Shroud since it's the hot topic for discussion here. When Manyshot is on cooldown, you are not pumping out the dps as fast as someone with melee on Hairy (affectionate name for the Pit Fiend in that raid). Slay living doesn't do ANYTHING against Hairy except the 3d6 damage. Hairy on normal has over 300k in hitpoints and is definitely a boss. Silver/metalline and good/holy/flametouched is the only thing that gets past his damage reduction. I guarantee you that someone with a melee Min II weapon is dealing a LOT more than those slay living arrows, without critting. You really want to shine, make a Mineral II Green Steel Bow. One of our rangers is and it deals out quite a bit of hurt.

We have archers that run with us in Shroud all the time, but while manyshot is on cooldown, they put the bow away and run in with dual-wielding death because rangers get that ability for FREE and dish it out and then pop back out to fire off on manyshot if the big guy hasn't been taken down after the cooldown has worn off.

Another thing, Hairy's aggro is random. If you pulled aggro, wait 2 seconds, he'll be attacking someone else next. If it wasn't random, rogues would get aggro all the time form all the backstab excess damage they do to him. As a cleric I get targeted to and all I do is heal the party.

Oh, and yes, Mass Heal does hit 12 people now. They fixed that, but in Shroud, mass Heal takes too long to cast even with quicken, better off using Cure Critical Mass or Cure Serious Mass with Empower and maximize for a better effect. Any raid leader though worth their weight is going to want Hairy down in 1, two rounds tops. Clerics and Favored Souls sink lots of gold into mana pots, and some even buy them off the DDO store to have mana during that raid because the fight with Hairy has gone on so long they're out of mana. Letting the fight run for four or five rounds is a massive drain on the clerics, and unfortunately, most people don't seem to care that they're bankrupting the clerics running with them.

It's a very rare thing for me to get gold or mana pots from non-guildies when we pug out a slot or two in raids. So, our raid leaders make sure the fights are going to go quick so the clerics aren't dropping 2.5 million in gold on pots per Shroud raid to support players who don't help out.

When our guild first started running Shroud it was a bigger deal as we didn't have all the twinked out gear from Amrath or Shroud items. We're a bit more laid back about who we let in now, but we still have certain guidelines we stick by to support the team in completing the raid. Shroud is a very MELEE heavy DPS raid. That's just a fact of life. Even if you're an Arcane Archer, when your skills are on cooldown you should be in with a melee weapon letting the Fiend have it or running in to get hit by the mass healing bubble going on near Hairy.

If bows worked like they did in the table-top where you're getting two bow hits in for every one melee strike this would be a complete and total non-issue, but you don't get the two for one with bows in DDO. They've hit that with a nerf bat so bad it really hit the bow users hard. I'd honestly like to see them fix it just a bit to bring it back more in line with the actual rules, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

I may have a very narrow view here but after running Shroud from the healing and also the DPS end of things, you can see what works in Shroud and what doesn't. If you can't adapt to it, expect to not get taken along on a lot of runs because most people follow the same guidelines because they would like to beat Hairy and get a shot at large mats and not wipe and bankrupt the healers in the process.

Now if we were talking one of the other raids, it's a different matter. Casters and Archers shine in the Demon Queen. They're needed because you can't effectively melee the boss without them. Hound it would also not be as big an issue. Shroud though is melee intensive, just the way it's set up.

Talon_Moonshadow
06-21-2010, 10:44 AM
Do you really want to be in their group anyway? Asking me too many questions about my char before accepting me is a sure sign of a group I know I will not enjoy playing with.


And although it turned out ok, I remember when I first did Shroud on Elite. The leader was giving every melee guy the third degree about what weps they had. Mostly not satisfied unless they had Min IIs. For some reason he didn't aske me when I first joined, but later seemed to reluctantly be ok with Pos III and Silver arrows.

Eventually found out that he was using Transmuting (used to work).


Then we get ready to go in and I find out I'm the opener. :rolleyes:

Missing_Minds
06-21-2010, 11:07 AM
Slay living doesn't do ANYTHING against Hairy except the 3d6 damage.

Stop right there and quit talking like you know something.

AA Slay Living arrows do 500 pts of damage, period. No save. It effects everything.


You really want to shine, make a Mineral II Green Steel Bow.

If you want something you can use on anything and not worry about what sort of ammo to use, sure. Otherwise Lit II way out does Min II on Harry. Acid damage from Min II? Harry ignores. Lighting? He sucks it. Able to use silver arrows? Of course. Winner? Lit II. Haven't finished the Lit II but have a Lit I? Use Silver arrows and winner Lit I, even using silver arrows with Min I to beat his DR.

sirgog
06-21-2010, 11:29 AM
...Hairy on normal has over 300k in hitpoints and is definitely a boss. Silver/metalline and good/holy/flametouched is the only thing that gets past his damage reduction. I guarantee you that someone with a melee Min II weapon is dealing a LOT more than those slay living arrows, without critting. You really want to shine, make a Mineral II Green Steel Bow. One of our rangers is and it deals out quite a bit of hurt.
...

Two things here are very wrong.

1) Harry doesn't have 'over 300k hp' on Normal. He has 100k in part 4 and 150k in part 5. Tested and confirmed (to within 1%) by Vanshilar.

300k was a number made up by melees that think they are doing 500 DPS each (so 4000 between eight of them) and want to know why Harry is still standing after a full pass - the number 300k makes them feel good. It doesn't occur to them that they are actually only doing ~150-200 DPS each.


2) Crafting a Mineral 2 bow is one of the best ways possible to waste Shroud ingredients. Make a Lightning Strike bow, it will break DR on Harry when used with House Deneith Silver Arrows, and it utterly outclasses Mineral 2 for DPS. Or just use the Silver Bow with silver arrows.


But the main reason I don't want AAs in my Shrouds?

Harry's AI. He picks someone at random to attack (damage dealt is irrelevant; intimidate overwrites his choice). If they are in melee range, he does a (fairly harmless) Cleave attack. If they are beyond his (long) melee range, he chaincasts Meteor Swarm/Delayed Blast Fireball/Mass Hold Monster. Two of those spells are deadly indeed; Meteor Swarm deals 280 average damage to someone that fails all four saves but has Fire Resistance. And if the AA is hiding behind a melee (as most do), they will cause the party to suffer around 2000 total damage.

Every person out of melee range dramatically increases the chance of deaths. If everyone is in melee range, Harry isn't very dangerous at all, and the encounter is very easily solohealed.

Arcane casters cause a similar problem, but if they don't hide behind anyone, they can drop a Fireshield and eat Fireballs and Meteor Swarms and self-heal - most AAs cannot selfheal through Harry's ranged attacks.

Even if an AA did 150% of the damage of a melee, I'd rather the melee in Shroud.

Delt
06-21-2010, 12:47 PM
Arcane casters cause a similar problem, but if they don't hide behind anyone, they can drop a Fireshield and eat Fireballs and Meteor Swarms and self-heal - most AAs cannot selfheal through Harry's ranged attacks.

Even if an AA did 150% of the damage of a melee, I'd rather the melee in Shroud.

Evasion - check. Decent Dex - check. Fire Resist/prot - check. Absorbtion items and 50-150hp self cures - optional.

Not sure why you think the average Arcane Archer is going to have a hard time eating a few spells to the face (or why they would hide behind a melee)....but whatever. Probably easier for an AA's to just unload manyshot right on the fiends back, then switch to melee. Less complaints from people looking to argue, same effectiveness.

The only thing that annoys me is archers single shot plinking portals. Sheesh, buy some portal beaters and quit praying for a 20.

Bloodstealer
06-22-2010, 05:21 AM
Only reasons I wud prefer a genuine melee toon over an arcane archer is because I cannot be bothered to keep going round raids / quests chasing mobs which are being kited by archers. As a cleric or FVS I wud just have to say off u go kite what u want and don't forget your heal pots :)
That said not all AA's are bad ones, I've quested with a few who do do some decent dmg, but have learned that when it gets into close range aggro its time to pull out ur trusty scimi, khop or something else rather than just run round like a headless chicken ping an arrow in the hope you score a decent crit.

As for your guild leader not wanting u to lead groups cos ur an AA -well he is blatently a suck ass who is probaly the first person to advertise a raid wanting to know ur BB cos he aint never actually had the balls to play the game with challenge - Ask you r guild leader if he or she will pay ur VIP subs or buy you that next F2P pack you want.. ultimately you can do what ever you want to do - if you get booted, then good riddance to the idiot, he or she probably didn't want to have you in competion for learning quests / raids and leading them....
As for raid leaders wanting MYDDO / BB info - they want this cos he/she really don't have any clue how to beat bosses any other way. What the hell did you lot do before you all had green steels in ur hand, how did you ever complete a shroud (if u ever did one)...ooh wait yes we used our +5 holy, pure good or something at least that did dmg and let our healers / casters play their role out. Shroud is like one of the easiest raids in the game (second to Hound actually). How long ago was it that we were doing this at lvl 13-16 (well EU players were anyway) without GS weapons or DT armours. You lot just basically look for an easy way out of working a raid so you want 18-20 with GS beaters, DT armours, Epic Gear blah blah blah and yet ur still mostly clueless on tactics when u get in there - since being over here I ran shrouds with the leaders giving no info to new players, healers think they are genuine tanks and forget to heal, AA's with no clue just run round kiting and pulling for the hell of it - including Harry on part 5 (yes I have seen that many times over here).

So bottom line - AA's are not bad.. all the time. Find a guild which is more flexible and most likely more tactically sound (wouldnt recommend one of the desperado guilds who constantly LFM for joiners or spam the general / advice / trade chat for joiners). Avoid raids with lfm's wanting BB'S to be MYDDO'ed and .... HAVE FUN!!

Arrys
06-22-2010, 02:05 PM
Apparently I have once again chosen to play the fatherless son of a class in an MMO.

Missing_Minds
06-22-2010, 02:14 PM
Apparently I have once again chosen to play the fatherless son of a class in an MMO.

The making is always more fun than the raising. Then again, when the child preforms well, you can always laugh at the arrogant.

Arrys
06-22-2010, 04:44 PM
The making is always more fun than the raising. Then again, when the child preforms well, you can always laugh at the arrogant.


Other than a near release DAOC thane I've found the controversy to be more personality based and a function of choosing classes that fit weird niche's. To be as disrupting to a raid as described the class has to be effective but require the player to use judgement.

I can't remember an MMO where raid kiting by ranged classes was acceptable in all but a few limited scenarios for example.

There are always raid leaders that have one way they do things and you go along or move along etc...

Gimp classes other than mezbreaker thanes don't tend to generate strong legitimate complaints. It takes a functional class played poorly to whatever plan is in the works even if the plan means playing the class poorly.

charredrex
06-22-2010, 10:09 PM
Two things here are very wrong.

1) Harry doesn't have 'over 300k hp' on Normal. He has 100k in part 4 and 150k in part 5. Tested and confirmed (to within 1%) by Vanshilar.

300k was a number made up by melees that think they are doing 500 DPS each (so 4000 between eight of them) and want to know why Harry is still standing after a full pass - the number 300k makes them feel good. It doesn't occur to them that they are actually only doing ~150-200 DPS each.


2) Crafting a Mineral 2 bow is one of the best ways possible to waste Shroud ingredients. Make a Lightning Strike bow, it will break DR on Harry when used with House Deneith Silver Arrows, and it utterly outclasses Mineral 2 for DPS. Or just use the Silver Bow with silver arrows.




Thank you for clearing that up. I was using other info I'd found and will definitely look into Vanshilar's results.

Also interesting note about the bow. May have to check that out.

charredrex
06-22-2010, 10:22 PM
Stop right there and quit talking like you know something.

AA Slay Living arrows do 500 pts of damage, period. No save. It effects everything.



If you want something you can use on anything and not worry about what sort of ammo to use, sure. Otherwise Lit II way out does Min II on Harry. Acid damage from Min II? Harry ignores. Lighting? He sucks it. Able to use silver arrows? Of course. Winner? Lit II. Haven't finished the Lit II but have a Lit I? Use Silver arrows and winner Lit I, even using silver arrows with Min I to beat his DR.

Slay living arrows last I checked on the forums only do 500 points of damage on a natural roll of a 20. Not every time. I should probably go correct my other post as I was looking at the Slay Living spell, not the arrows. If you can direct me to something that says otherwise about the arrows, please do so. I'd really love to check it out as the enhancements in the actual game are beyond vague and I'll freely admit I'm wrong if I am on the matter.

Xeriphim
06-23-2010, 11:40 AM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

You got banned from running raids with a guild because you don't melee ? .... Just what sort of AA ranger are you ? . The kind that comrpise a majority of AA's who run around pew pew everything . even in close quarters combat where melee a mob would actually kill off the mob faster ? The AA that only knows how to pew pew because they dump stated con, an when they over agro have to kite mobs cuz if mobs ever sneezed on the AA they'd kill you with a glancing blow ....

To me this all sounds of an AA who would in all likely hood be a liability to the party more then a benefit . Or one who is accustomed to soloing or doing quests oriented to an open sky setting like storm cleave .Or slayer areas where you have tons of room to run around kiting mobs , or setting up sniping perches an never get hit by mobs .

It also sends up a red flag on the play that you only understand half the Ranger's combat abilities and willingly ignore the melee half . You know those same melee twf feats Every None ranger has to waste a feat slot for that rangers get for free .... That in all likely hood the party will spend more time chasing after mobs taking longer to kill trash mobs that should have been an easy clear .

I'd just as soon take a ranger into a raid / or group that realizes when to use there weaker established combat feats an when to use there stronger combat . Ie , that Tempest who see's the party getting butt raped by archers in a perch you can't get to an melee . so they put's away there swords an pulls out a bow hits many shot an bang archers go away .... Or the AA ranger who can recognize the whole party is bottle necked in a close quarters area . puts there bow away an takes out a pair of blades an gets medieval on the mobs . Sadly too many rangers are just one dimensional squishies an give the class a bad name .A well played ranger while rare is a wonderful sight to behold .

Crazyfruit
06-23-2010, 02:31 PM
Or the AA ranger who can recognize the whole party is bottle necked in a close quarters area . puts there bow away an takes out a pair of blades an gets medieval on the mobs

The good archers use improved precise shot instead in those kinda situations :)

Drakmer
06-24-2010, 04:50 AM
You got banned from running raids with a guild because you don't melee ? .... Just what sort of AA ranger are you ? . The kind that comrpise a majority of AA's who run around pew pew everything . even in close quarters combat where melee a mob would actually kill off the mob faster ? The AA that only knows how to pew pew because they dump stated con, an when they over agro have to kite mobs cuz if mobs ever sneezed on the AA they'd kill you with a glancing blow ....

To me this all sounds of an AA who would in all likely hood be a liability to the party more then a benefit . Or one who is accustomed to soloing or doing quests oriented to an open sky setting like storm cleave .Or slayer areas where you have tons of room to run around kiting mobs , or setting up sniping perches an never get hit by mobs .

It also sends up a red flag on the play that you only understand half the Ranger's combat abilities and willingly ignore the melee half . You know those same melee twf feats Every None ranger has to waste a feat slot for that rangers get for free .... That in all likely hood the party will spend more time chasing after mobs taking longer to kill trash mobs that should have been an easy clear .

I'd just as soon take a ranger into a raid / or group that realizes when to use there weaker established combat feats an when to use there stronger combat . Ie , that Tempest who see's the party getting butt raped by archers in a perch you can't get to an melee . so they put's away there swords an pulls out a bow hits many shot an bang archers go away .... Or the AA ranger who can recognize the whole party is bottle necked in a close quarters area . puts there bow away an takes out a pair of blades an gets medieval on the mobs . Sadly too many rangers are just one dimensional squishies an give the class a bad name .A well played ranger while rare is a wonderful sight to behold .


For your info my base con is a 15 and at 18th lv i have 450 hp with a con6 greater false life belt. So yeah im a squishy AA that gives the class a bad name Riiiight O.K.

Crann
06-24-2010, 12:23 PM
When you see a good ranger, pew pewing a mob that is standing right next to him....maybe consider the fact that he doesn't have him targetted.

There are alot of mechanics that people don't understand unless the have actually played them. That lack of knowledge goes a long way towards prejudicing the uninformed against a class, or a playstyle.

There are certainly times when pulling the blades will yield higher DPS. But when mobs are bunched together, or lined up, an AA using a bow is going to have the highest DPS in the game.

To suggest that is when they pull the blades would display a lack of knowledge about the IPS feat.

Missing_Minds
06-24-2010, 12:38 PM
When you see a good ranger, pew pewing a mob that is standing right next to him....maybe consider the fact that he doesn't have him targetted.


Or manyshot could be active.

Crann
06-24-2010, 01:02 PM
Or manyshot could be active.

Or hopefully both :)

kcalbyz
06-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Slay living arrows last I checked on the forums only do 500 points of damage on a natural roll of a 20. Not every time. I should probably go correct my other post as I was looking at the Slay Living spell, not the arrows. If you can direct me to something that says otherwise about the arrows, please do so. I'd really love to check it out as the enhancements in the actual game are beyond vague and I'll freely admit I'm wrong if I am on the matter.

A natural roll of 20/20 means it is 5% chance of activating a Slay Living arrow. It is not every time of course since you still need to take into account of confirming the critical hit. But still I believe it is still pretty decent damage considering you are also doing x3 critical damage on top of the Slay Living arrow.

kcalbyz
06-24-2010, 04:08 PM
But the main reason I don't want AAs in my Shrouds?

Harry's AI. He picks someone at random to attack (damage dealt is irrelevant; intimidate overwrites his choice). If they are in melee range, he does a (fairly harmless) Cleave attack. If they are beyond his (long) melee range, he chaincasts Meteor Swarm/Delayed Blast Fireball/Mass Hold Monster. Two of those spells are deadly indeed; Meteor Swarm deals 280 average damage to someone that fails all four saves but has Fire Resistance. And if the AA is hiding behind a melee (as most do), they will cause the party to suffer around 2000 total damage.

Every person out of melee range dramatically increases the chance of deaths. If everyone is in melee range, Harry isn't very dangerous at all, and the encounter is very easily solohealed.

Arcane casters cause a similar problem, but if they don't hide behind anyone, they can drop a Fireshield and eat Fireballs and Meteor Swarms and self-heal - most AAs cannot selfheal through Harry's ranged attacks.

Even if an AA did 150% of the damage of a melee, I'd rather the melee in Shroud.

Assuming there are at least 6 melees surrounding Harry and hitting him, unless an arcane caster is right beside the melees fighting (being the 7th "melee"), I can't see how the arcane caster aren't hiding behind anyone. There is definitely a melee between Harry and the caster, unless of course the melees left a tiny bit of gap to expose the arcane casters to the wrath of Harry.

If you say Harry's aggro is random, then wouldn't he have struck out at healers behind the melees with the Meteor Swarm spell? Wouldn't that do splash damage to the melees as well? Or are healers' automatically ignored by Harry as they are not doing damage to him? Is that what you mean by random?

Suppose Harry's aggro isn't random and whoever deals the most damage to "him" gets his attention (thus healers are safe), an AA that gets pelted with balls of magical death should mean that he is dishing out more DPS than the raging frenzied WF barbarian (making a point, no offense intended to WF Barbs) hacking away at Harry. Ah...that would be bad...indeed.

So I guess what would be the best strategy would be that every single one of the raid party, including the healers, casters and archers (and pikers), get into melee range and thus avoid the off-chance of Harry casting spells of doom? That would be good I guess since that would ensure that everyone gets mass healed and Harry won't be chasing anyone around.

Worth a try?

insanity7
06-29-2010, 03:28 AM
In my previous life I was AA and was denied a shroud only once, but the guy was a jer*k anyway.
I don't think people "hate" AAs in general.
I also hate one AA that I played with - he was zerging like crazy, spamming the party chat every time he hit a slaying arrow, thinkink its a big deal, at the same time had almost no kills and was dying consistantly when we failed to save his a$$ from chasing monsters.
In the same way I hate some casters that spam every "crit firewall" and etc...
The biggest mistake when ranging in a party, is playing "Legolas" and shooting from miles away and pulling aggro from melees.
Even with a bow, you must consider yourself a melee and stick the bow in the mob's face.

As much as Shroud/VoD DPS goes, with my AA I always had the biggest kill count and certainly did most DPS on Harry in most PUGs, except when there were good epic-SOSed barbs around (20sec manyshot+lighning strike+slaying arrrows, then pull out yer BB and your set)

The biggest AAs advantage for me is in epic stuff, but will leave that to your imagination.

Abraxasroth
06-29-2010, 04:50 AM
Some people play for fun, other for their r/l frustation and get an orgasm when drop some nice item >|

"omgwft! whats that? A potion of GM's power! Yay!" -cries- (sadly happens)

Therigar
06-29-2010, 02:12 PM
I dont melee

Why?

One dimensional characters are a serious problem when we start talking about group play. It doesn't matter which character class.

I can listen all day and read pages of comments on why a ranger, rogue, wizard, cleric, barbarian, whatever (insert your class here) should be one dimensional and why it is more fun, effective, and so on. But, the fact is that we are usually looking for characters that can do at least 2 or 3 things effectively.

My suggestion is that you invest in some metalline of pure good melee weapons and link them when asked about boss beaters. If your bow actually procs the damage you are talking about then maybe that is the weapon for you to use. But seeing is believing and before you can get people to watch you have to get into the group. :)

I run an elf fighter with the arcane archer enhancement. Best compliment I ever got was about her dominating shooting. But, I also switch over to TWF when the mobs get too close (rather than going into the insane chicken with its head cut off running routine that most archers -- and arcanes -- resort to).

Therigar
06-29-2010, 02:17 PM
If you say Harry's aggro is random, then wouldn't he have struck out at healers behind the melees with the Meteor Swarm spell? Wouldn't that do splash damage to the melees as well? Or are healers' automatically ignored by Harry as they are not doing damage to him? Is that what you mean by random?

It is fairly well established that Harry's aggro is random and it is mostly focused on the melees that are immediately underfoot.

balancetraveller
07-03-2010, 12:15 PM
Arcane Inc. is having a poll right now on whether or not to give membership to AA. And from the look of it we'll be opening our arms to AA pretty soon, so if you find no place to go, go to Arcane Inc. :D

Azhanti
07-03-2010, 12:49 PM
"I don't melee"

Well that statement doesn't help, does it? As a Ranger (Tempest or AA), archery, TWF, stealth, buffspells, these are all tools at your disposal to be used when neccessary, if you are going to neglect one of these, then you only have yourself to blame.

unscythe
07-03-2010, 11:31 PM
In my previous life I was AA and was denied a shroud only once, but the guy was a jer*k anyway.
I don't think people "hate" AAs in general.
I also hate one AA that I played with - he was zerging like crazy, spamming the party chat every time he hit a slaying arrow, thinkink its a big deal, at the same time had almost no kills and was dying consistantly when we failed to save his a$$ from chasing monsters.
In the same way I hate some casters that spam every "crit firewall" and etc...
The biggest mistake when ranging in a party, is playing "Legolas" and shooting from miles away and pulling aggro from melees.
Even with a bow, you must consider yourself a melee and stick the bow in the mob's face.

As much as Shroud/VoD DPS goes, with my AA I always had the biggest kill count and certainly did most DPS on Harry in most PUGs, except when there were good epic-SOSed barbs around (20sec manyshot+lighning strike+slaying arrrows, then pull out yer BB and your set)

The biggest AAs advantage for me is in epic stuff, but will leave that to your imagination.

Kos??? Is that you Kos?? Only AA I appriecate is Kos. :)

Keybreaker
07-07-2010, 05:55 PM
well he is blatently a suck ass who is probaly the first person to advertise a raid wanting to know ur BB cos he aint never actually had the balls to play the game with challenge

Ummm... yea taking under-equipped pikers is is certainly a challenge! But it's not the challenge 'suck asses' like me who run tons of raids want. The challenge that I like is getting cool gear that can get the job done in the fastest way on the most difficult setting.

The problem with archers in raids is basically two-fold. (1) They are outside the healing radius of mass cures/heals. They will die if they take a lot of damage, or they will waste all their time potting or scrolling instead of DPSing. (2) They occasionally do a lot of damage, esp burst damage with manyshot and lucky strings of 20s, and pull aggro. Usually the best thing to do in a raid like the shroud pt5 is to stand your ground and die so the melees can surround and contain. But typically an AA will kite Harry all over creation like a headless chicken while Harry spams meteor storms everywhere.

If more AAs played smarter than general attitudes will change. But b*tching about "classism" and prejudice against the under-equipped is not going to get you anywhere.

NaughtyPixie
02-09-2011, 09:23 AM
Not to be completely cliche or anything, but post a video or it didn't happen. Not being derogatory, I'm merely curious to see what an AA can actually do because, not going to lie, I'm pretty much one of those people that don't allow pure bow rangers into my shroud groups. Maybe it'll change my opinion and those on the forum if you do... though considering I've had shroud level AAs in the past, I thoroughly doubt it.

He isn't off the money you know... AAs make portals their *******. easily even.
also 2 AAs can take harry down in one round if properly dressed, 3 AAs nearly *always* takes harry down one round.
i set up shroud runs all the time (read: daily) and the fastest runs i have had so far always had 3 AAs or more.

Granted there are a LOT of AAs out there with terrible builds who don't understand the class at all. So it might just be that you ran into them. a lot of them. AAs.... are a lot like a sorc class, in the sense that you don't have any wiggle room. you have to know what your end product looks like at lvl 1 and not deviate at all or you DO get a gimp. AAs *need* their gear and their bows to be good.

of course it also helps to *know* the quests and which boss in which raid/epic will wipe the whole group if you decide to manyshot too soon. i am sure that hatetanks loath most AAs for this reason. *shrugs* but the same can be said for all classes. everyone needs a chance to learn. naturally you do not have to be the one to teach them. :)

Malison
02-09-2011, 09:57 AM
From my experience, a gimpy (12 base str, no levelups) AA does 50-60% of a portal's hp during manyshot. I can definitely believe that one who actually deals damage with each arrow will kill a portal before manyshot ends. And depending on the order your server runs portals, there's usually at least one place you can line up two portals for improved precise. So I can theoretically support the OP's claim of killing two portals in 20-25 seconds.

The trouble is when we deal all that damage fast and think that ranged is inherently powerful, forgetting that it'll take the next minute and a half to deal as much as we just put out.

The first problem, then, is AA's that don't melee. Most of the time, you're a wasted party space. For short periods of time, you're the most valuable person in the party. Pull out the TWF, use the free feats, and do damage that's not too much worse than a tempest while you wait for manyshot.

The second problem is with people who aren't AA's. If the archer is kiting, don't waste your time chasing. Either they will kill it, or they will die. If they die, you can freely not rez them because they're stupid, and proceed to win the quest. If they kill it, then you didn't really need to be there anyway.

But typically an AA will kite Harry all over creation like a headless chicken while Harry spams meteor storms everywhere.
I've never seen an AA move Harry, including runs with 4 of them and 3 arcanes. Maybe it's because the AA's I've seen don't do enough damage, or maybe the pugs I run with know how to surround him.


The problem with archers in raids is basically two-fold. (1) They are outside the healing radius of mass cures/heals. They will die if they take a lot of damage, or they will waste all their time potting or scrolling instead of DPSing.
Yes. The last Shroud I healed had a repeater rogue who shot Harry from behind the melee. He missed half the heals, but took all the melees and meteors in his direction. Surprise, he died.


Usually the best thing to do in a raid like the shroud pt5 is to stand your ground and die so the melees can surround and contain.
What a lot of people don't seem to realize, especially in this thread, is you can use a bow at melee range. Get in the pile, put your bow in Harry's face, and then unleash the fury. Don't kite, don't stand far away and tank the meteors, just get in his face.

That gives you the added benefit that when you switch weapons in 20 seconds, you don't have to run to get to him.


Just the opposite. Tempest melee does a lot more sustained DPS during a boss fight than an arcane archer. Good leaders don't choose to bring less DPS to a raid -- and the healers thank them for not having to chain chug mana pots. No one in their right mind wants 3 rounds to Harry in part 4, but it happens all too often because leaders made poor choices. One rounding Harry on normal shouldn't be as rare of an event as it is.
I agree with almost all of this except one thing: tempest does more damage over a two-minute interval. But Harry part 4 only sticks around for 90 seconds, and another ~30 go by with the trash between waves. This weights the overall dps back towards the AA (assuming he melees outside of manyshot). I haven't run the numbers to claim it's superior, but the difference is at least less than in a straightforward fight.
Part 5 the comparison would fluctuate incredibly depending how long it takes the group to drop Harry.

---
Most of my damage-dealing toons are AA in some form. But despite that I'm hesitant to take an unknown AA into a raid, simply because most of them are bad. It's not hate for the AA prestige, it's hate for the people who play them badly.

NaughtyPixie
02-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Two things here are very wrong.

1) Harry doesn't have 'over 300k hp' on Normal. He has 100k in part 4 and 150k in part 5. Tested and confirmed (to within 1%) by Vanshilar.

300k was a number made up by melees that think they are doing 500 DPS each (so 4000 between eight of them) and want to know why Harry is still standing after a full pass - the number 300k makes them feel good. It doesn't occur to them that they are actually only doing ~150-200 DPS each.


2) Crafting a Mineral 2 bow is one of the best ways possible to waste Shroud ingredients. Make a Lightning Strike bow, it will break DR on Harry when used with House Deneith Silver Arrows, and it utterly outclasses Mineral 2 for DPS. Or just use the Silver Bow with silver arrows.

Yes. thank you. on both.



But the main reason I don't want AAs in my Shrouds?

Harry's AI. He picks someone at random to attack (damage dealt is irrelevant; intimidate overwrites his choice). If they are in melee range, he does a (fairly harmless) Cleave attack. If they are beyond his (long) melee range, he chaincasts Meteor Swarm/Delayed Blast Fireball/Mass Hold Monster. Two of those spells are deadly indeed; Meteor Swarm deals 280 average damage to someone that fails all four saves but has Fire Resistance. And if the AA is hiding behind a melee (as most do), they will cause the party to suffer around 2000 total damage.

Every person out of melee range dramatically increases the chance of deaths. If everyone is in melee range, Harry isn't very dangerous at all, and the encounter is very easily solohealed.

Arcane casters cause a similar problem, but if they don't hide behind anyone, they can drop a Fireshield and eat Fireballs and Meteor Swarms and self-heal - most AAs cannot selfheal through Harry's ranged attacks.

Even if an AA did 150% of the damage of a melee, I'd rather the melee in Shroud.

Completely understandable. By this logic. however, i have to say you have been playing with some very crappy AAs if this is your regular experiance with them.

Unless you have an AA like myself who goes away from everyone else - casters/healers included. Thankfully Harry also has a very short attention span and no respectable AA has less than 400 hitpoints by the time they are doing shroud. with fire resist, and a face full of fireball, he does enough to - if he crits, which he rarely does on me - do more than a little damage (my bar goes down __ this much. i never checked the damage because it never matter) which i *can* in face self heal as i also invested enough to be able to do so with my own healing. i have yet to die by harry unless the whole pug group wiped. i will grant you that this happened once due to healer dcing and other healer running out of mana and having no pots. in my salad days in shroud that did actually happen once. but never since.

perhaps it was just your choice of AAs then...?

NaughtyPixie
02-09-2011, 10:09 AM
Two things here are very wrong.

1) Harry doesn't have 'over 300k hp' on Normal. He has 100k in part 4 and 150k in part 5. Tested and confirmed (to within 1%) by Vanshilar.

300k was a number made up by melees that think they are doing 500 DPS each (so 4000 between eight of them) and want to know why Harry is still standing after a full pass - the number 300k makes them feel good. It doesn't occur to them that they are actually only doing ~150-200 DPS each.


2) Crafting a Mineral 2 bow is one of the best ways possible to waste Shroud ingredients. Make a Lightning Strike bow, it will break DR on Harry when used with House Deneith Silver Arrows, and it utterly outclasses Mineral 2 for DPS. Or just use the Silver Bow with silver arrows.

Yes. thank you. on both.



But the main reason I don't want AAs in my Shrouds?

Harry's AI. He picks someone at random to attack (damage dealt is irrelevant; intimidate overwrites his choice). If they are in melee range, he does a (fairly harmless) Cleave attack. If they are beyond his (long) melee range, he chaincasts Meteor Swarm/Delayed Blast Fireball/Mass Hold Monster. Two of those spells are deadly indeed; Meteor Swarm deals 280 average damage to someone that fails all four saves but has Fire Resistance. And if the AA is hiding behind a melee (as most do), they will cause the party to suffer around 2000 total damage.

Every person out of melee range dramatically increases the chance of deaths. If everyone is in melee range, Harry isn't very dangerous at all, and the encounter is very easily solohealed.

Arcane casters cause a similar problem, but if they don't hide behind anyone, they can drop a Fireshield and eat Fireballs and Meteor Swarms and self-heal - most AAs cannot selfheal through Harry's ranged attacks.

Even if an AA did 150% of the damage of a melee, I'd rather the melee in Shroud.

Completely understandable. By this logic. however, i have to say you have been playing with some very crappy AAs if this is your regular experiance with them.

I myself go away from everyone else - casters/healers included. Thankfully Harry also has a very short attention span and no respectable AA has less than 400 hitpoints by the time they are doing shroud. with fire resist, and a face full of fireball, he does enough to - if he crits, which he rarely does on me - do more than a little damage (my bar goes down __ this much. i never checked the damage because it never matter) which i *can* in face self heal as i also invested enough to be able to do so with my own healing. i have yet to die by harry unless the whole pug group wiped. i will grant you that this happened once due to healer dcing and other healer running out of mana and having no pots. in my salad days in shroud that did actually happen once. but never since.

perhaps it was just your choice of AAs then...?

Talon_Moonshadow
02-09-2011, 10:24 AM
In less than 20 Shroud runs, my mutt Rgr non-AA killed Harry in prt 5.....with a bow. Twice.

On his second Shroud run my Ftr18/Rgr1/Wiz1 AA, killed HArry in prt 5 with a bow. (note, no Slayer arrows or GS yet)

I'd say Manyshot definately does some DPS. Someday I'll see how Slayer arrows work in him. :cool:

But, I tend to melee him more often now. Melee does more sustained DPS....not sure when slayer arrows enter the equation.

But sometimes it's just easier to go along with the party's wishes and melee......whether you do more DPS that way or not.

BladedThesis
02-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Buy a basic +1 metalline of pure good longbow, i see em fairly cheap fairly often. Then when Mr. Stupid that thinks you need dr breakers on normal ask for a link you can toss him one. Then switch to your silver inside and have fun.

Kaeldur
02-09-2011, 10:33 AM
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

In all honesty that's the same as a barbarian, but much slower. Except for manyshot that DPS you stated isn't really that great.

Now, I would have no issue at all taking you in my Shroud runs (but I'm not on Orien). I commonly take 2 casters and/or 3 healers. People underestimate spell/ranged dps'ing on Harry. Needless to say, I didn't take those "cookie cutter" groups in the last 4 Shrouds I led and we completed 1 rounders every single time... If cap was lvl 16 I'd worry about group setup, but we're lvl 20's doing this, come on people...

LupusVai
02-09-2011, 10:34 AM
I think this has been said about a 1000 times before on other posts the most important part of playing an AA (and being usefull in a group rather than taking up a space that would be better used with another melee) is knowing when to put your bow down. Which for the most part is for 100 seconds in every 120 seconds. (I.e when many shot is on cool down.) Thats because ranged dps is gimped. (There are situtations where this may not apply ofc like shooting the queen when shes on the platforms in dq etc)

I feel like sobbing everytime i see a ranger shooting his bow at the portals when MS is on timer.

Having said that I'm a strong beleiver in playing how you want to play but be prepared to be not wanted in groups. An AA that doesnt put their bow down is a bit like a cleric that doesnt heal. Both can fill a slot in a group but are not as desired or as usefull.

Best solution form your own shroud groups. Then you can decide who's usefull enough to join your groups. ;-)

My TR'd AA is one of my favoured characters and i live in hope for the day (if and when they ever actually do) of the ranged pass when they're supposed to be fixing ranged.

hermespan
02-09-2011, 10:52 AM
That leader was very inexperienced.

The shroud is a little different than other quests in that archers can get people killed. This is because they (played well) do much MORE damage than other characters for the first 20 seconds of the 2 minute manyshot cooldown . The boss there has a unique way of handling it - trying to throw meteor swarms at you.


There, fixed with bold text.

As an aside, Harry (the pit fiend) in there switches aggro randomly. It doesn't matter who does the most damage, unlike a lot of bosses. The mini-bosses (Damasze, Anur-Shuub, etc) do use a hate list so they will attack an arcane archer that opens with manyshot.



The problem is that those meteor swarms will hit all the little melees poking him for 200+ damage a spell, and killing them if whoever is tossing out heals isn't paying attention.


This is no reason for an AA to not melee. Con is not a dump stat. You should have 400+ hp (at least for this raid) or you need to work on your build and consider a lesser reincarnate to fix it. My wizard has more HP than a lot of AAs.

The reason a lot of raid leaders don't like AAs is all too often they are squishy (< 350HP)and a lot of them refuse to melee (or can't hit anything with melee), which puts their _overall_ dps at the bottom of the heap.

For 20 seconds every 2 minutes (or 16.5% of the time) AAs do more damage than any melee does. The rest of the time and overall, exclusively ranged dps is laughable.

To be successful at raiding as an AA you need to get your melee attack bonus up to usable levels (via finesse or whatever works) and you need to get your HP high enough to be on the boss with the melees when manyshot is cooling down, without getting one or two shotted.

If your build doesn't meet these requirements, you should re-think your build and fix it, or resign yourself to all AA raids.

AAs can do raids with nothing but ranged, but it requires a different strategy than doing a raid with melees and the two strategies simply don't mix well.

Darkrok
02-09-2011, 11:00 AM
First of all, even on a primarily ranged character there are going to be a lot of times that melee is better. I wouldn't refuse someone for being an AA - I would refuse someone for saying "I don't melee" the same as I would refuse an arcane that said "I don't carry rage/haste". They may play outstanding outside of the little rage/haste issue but they're ignoring a large part of their class.


The second problem is with people who aren't AA's. If the archer is kiting, don't waste your time chasing. Either they will kill it, or they will die. If they die, you can freely not rez them because they're stupid, and proceed to win the quest. If they kill it, then you didn't really need to be there anyway

This is the fault of the bad AA's out there that have people in the mindset that 'kiting = bad ALWAYS'. I was running an Eyes of Stone last night on my 6 ranger/2 monk/2 fighter AA (working toward Helves Angel build) and the person running the hireling healer wasn't in the room yet. I think we had 4 people there. We had a wave of about 5-6 mobs come at us. I popped Manyshot and pulled off the heaviest hitter, leaving the rest for the group, and proceeded to kill the heavy hitter kiting him up the stairs and then jumping off the stairs to give me some standing still time to shoot.

I handle all my own heals and have the mob about dead by the time the rest of the group finishes the lighter hitting mobs. One of the melees just said, "stopping jumping around like an idiot everyone". If I hadn't kited the one mob off we probably would have lost some people - the three of them ended up around 20% health. So yeah, there are bad AA's that kite in situations where the group is safe and lower the group's dps. But there is a right time to kite, something that's lost on a lot of non-ranged characters out there. That said, he might have just been mad that someone using a bow part of the time had twice as many kills as he did on his barbarian. ;) I got most of those kills with a scimi and a kukri though - not by kiting things around when they didn't need kited.


What a lot of people don't seem to realize, especially in this thread, is you can use a bow at melee range. Get in the pile, put your bow in Harry's face, and then unleash the fury. Don't kite, don't stand far away and tank the meteors, just get in his face.

That gives you the added benefit that when you switch weapons in 20 seconds, you don't have to run to get to him.

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. If you're ranging by yourself - or even worse by the healers - in the Shroud then you're doing it wrong. If you're doing it because you're too squishy to stand in melee range then you built your toon wrong. Manyshot is certainly more dps than melee for most AA toons. That doesn't mean you have to manyshot from in the corner. Pop your manyshot, pew pew pew, and then melee all from right under Harry's chin. That goes for AA kiting as well. Once things are under control and the healer's ready again under most circumstances you can just stop kiting but keep shooting. If the things going to live long enough then swap to melee weapons again but if it would be dead before you swapped anyways just stop kiting and keep shooting.

dunklezhan
02-09-2011, 11:06 AM
The reason a lot of raid leaders don't like AAs is all too often they are squishy (< 350HP)

Sigh. My L14 elf AA is so gimped. I didn't dump CON particularly, but I only have 190 HP currently I'm never going to make another 160HP in two levels for Shroud. Roll on L18 when my build allows for toughness. Note to self: must get GFL soon. And not Soon(tm) either...

Propane
02-09-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't have any issues running my AA in shroud (11ranger/8bard/1ft).

Part 4, run in and haste boost - then MS him at point blank range - standing with all the others.

After MS is done, put down the bow, pick up two-weapons and start swinging.

Same for part 5.

Make sure you have a Disease Immunity and Poison Immunity is some shape or form.

Crazyfruit
02-09-2011, 11:34 AM
Nice necro post :)

I've been running a purely ranged DPS completionist-to-be here the last 6 months, hope I've helped changed some opinions. Never melee'd unless it's to smite/vorpal or as a frenzied berserker against portals.

Always fun when someone tells me to put the bow down (I rarely kite) without a clue what my build is shortly after we enter a quest, or starts whining about archers, then I kill the next 30 monsters before they can even reach them or clear out their dungeon alert red that they just died to & were crying it was a wipe. :)


AA should always melee when not manyshotting

My archers do not have power attack, are squishy (no toughness either), and don't have the free feats that a ranger would get. Last life my arrows were critting for 900. Life before that was 140 a shot (rogue). Telling them to melee is stupid, same goes for the pure rangers if you're not sure they have weapons as good as their bows :)

psymun
02-09-2011, 11:35 AM
Players that don't use their character's full potential give questionable classes bad reps...

This doesn't mean that these players are horrible, or useless, normally just ill informed.

For Arcane Archers, it's simple what you need to do.

If you are able to do 30/hit with your bow, you should be able to do that or more with a couple scimitars, especially because you can then use power attack. So you should just go in and beat on a boss for the 2 minute Manyshot cool down, then break back out. That way, you're maximizing the DPS for your group.

The other thing is, if you want to pull back while shooting at the boss, stand in the Cleric's P.E.A. This allows you to still be healed, and the clerics don't have to pull off of you. However, a lot of rangers don't realize that you can get a bonus to attack AND if you have rogue levels you get sneak attack with a bow if you're closer to the boss. You can stand right up close with the rest of the group. You don't have to pull back.

It's not just AA that have trouble either, however. Paladins and Barbarians don't use their abilities either.

For Paladins, Divine Might, Divine Sacrifice, Divine Favor, Zeal, and Exalted Smite are GREAT things to use, many Paladins either don't have them, don't use them, or don't know what they are.

I've also noticed that a lot of Barbarians don't use anything but rage. Meanwhile, they've got Frenzy and Death Frenzy, and I'm sure there are a few other things.

There are even many fighters that don't use power surge or haste boost.

Because of lack of knowledge, many classes/playing styles get bad reps, and unfortunately it causes many party leads to just outright NOT allow people into groups. But like another poster said, it's the party lead's right to decline someone, not much you can do.

k1ngp1n
02-09-2011, 11:37 AM
This is a great thread.



This is because they (played well) do much MORE damage than other characters.

Much to learn, you have.


I dont melee

I prolly wouldn't run with you either. Not that I'd squelch you, but you can be sure that's a one-way ticket to not being invited to any raids with us.


n less than 20 Shroud runs, my mutt Rgr non-AA killed Harry in prt 5.....with a bow. Twice.

On his second Shroud run my Ftr18/Rgr1/Wiz1 AA, killed HArry in prt 5 with a bow. (note, no Slayer arrows or GS yet)

Am I mistaken here in that you're claiming kill-shots on harry demonstrate your damage output?


Pop your manyshot, pew pew pew, and then melee all from right under Harry's chin.

Genius!



AAs can work well, but they are not newbie friendly to excel at. And unfortunately most AAs are newbies, and many newbies are drawn to AAs (thereby replenishing the ranks of bad AAs). Luckily, I've had the fortune to see a couple AAs that were really spectacular at what they do, so I'm well aware of their potential.

But I've also seen Barbs, Fighters, Tempests, Rogues, and all other classes that were also extraordinary at what they do. It's all in perspective. 'I had the highest killcount in Gianthold!' or 'I got the killing blow on Harry!' is not a measure of your output. It might be a measure of your output in regards to the group at hand, but pug groups are not exactly the reserve of power-gamers or otherwise highly geared and experienced players. In fact, it is the opposite.

toughguyjoe
02-09-2011, 11:42 AM
Someone already made the main point of this thread necro.

Learn when it's appropriate to swap from Bow to Melee, and when it's appropriate to swap back.

kernal42
02-09-2011, 11:55 AM
In less than 20 Shroud runs, my mutt Rgr non-AA killed Harry in prt 5.....with a bow. Twice.

On his second Shroud run my Ftr18/Rgr1/Wiz1 AA, killed HArry in prt 5 with a bow. (note, no Slayer arrows or GS yet)


My arcane got the kill shot on Harry in both part 4 and 5 of a group by swinging his dreamspitter.

I just don't delude myself into thinking that means I have great dps.

-Kernal

k1ngp1n
02-09-2011, 01:30 PM
Someone already made the main point of this thread necro.

Learn when it's appropriate to swap from Bow to Melee, and when it's appropriate to swap back.

Gah. I failed my necro-check. GAH!

krackythehoodedone
02-09-2011, 01:31 PM
Well great thread..so my tuppence worth.

1, BOWS. Probably the most flexible part of archery is that you can use different arrows to overcome DR. The Silver Longbow with its increased threat range and Holy attribute make it probably the best bow in the game to hit bosses with before you get your mits on Greensteel. Please dont make a Min 2 Bow its a waste of 24 larges in my opinion. Go for a lightning strike weapon every time.

2, DPS..a well built AA is worth their spot in a shroud group. With Manyshot you are right at the top of the DPS tree. On the downside outside that your ranged DPS sucks and if you are just fighting one Boss the advantages of Imp precise shot are gone...So what to do?

3, Put the bow away and pick up melee weapons is one solution. Become so bow specialised that your archery damage doesnt average out so badly is another. Look at other AA builds, their is one knocking around at the moment called The Helves Angel which is a feat rich archery specialist with kickass boss beater melee weapon spec and another that uses FB for obscene one on one manyshot damage then switches to weapons

4, Learn to use the bow. Understand the effects of aggro and what happens to make you kite mobs. Shroud has special requirements for the archer. You dont want to go pulling Harries aggro at range. You also cant have a load of AA's standing off shooting because you need enough melees to surround him to keep him still.

5, So learn to use your manyshot wisely, not just blast away as soon as he lands, and always build decent hit points in so you can stand toe to toe and shoot if you need to.

6, As for being declined. Up to the PL but if you get yourself known as someone with a Bow that really knows his stuff you will be accepted more often than not. And if not its their loss not yours.

7, Their are a few ranged toons on every server that everyone knows ..I can think of a guy called Preston for example. I dont know him or play on his server..But i'm interested in ranged toons and the name keeps cropping up. He has a great rep & would walk into pretty much any party...So dont get too dissolusioned with your Bowman.

8, Lastly their is so much ranged love in the game from the players (just look at this thread for proof !) despite its obvious drawbacks that some form of revamp from the Devs in the future is only a matter of time. (probably !?)

bartosy
02-09-2011, 01:48 PM
AA are nice but when the many shot ends.. just run to the mob/portal and
beat it like everyone else already..

that 1 arrow every second that does 30 damage a pop with some added holy damage to it and maybe the lucky vorpal hits that do 500 damage just doesnt warrant ranged enough out of many shot situations..


you get the full twf line for free go work for your mats already and beat the
mob like everyone else.

bartosy
02-09-2011, 02:08 PM
Well great thread..so my tuppence worth.

1, BOWS. Probably the most flexible part of archery is that you can use different arrows to overcome DR. The Silver Longbow with its increased threat range and Holy attribute make it probably the best bow in the game to hit bosses with before you get your mits on Greensteel. Please dont make a Min 2 Bow its a waste of 24 larges in my opinion. Go for a lightning strike weapon every time.



there better bows out there then the silver bow

I don't play on Orien anymore but a few weeks ago i was browsing the ah just for fun.. and you know what i saw ?.. something that i've been looking for for months on my current server but never saw above +3.. a

+5 Holy longbow of Greater Evil Outsider bane..

NO RR

lvl 18 i think.

and there was a bid on it so i know its around..

This bow will probably out damage silver bow and the greensteel Lit II bow too..

1d8+5+4 = 17 damage and +9 to hit..+holy damage 2d6 + 3d8 addded damage on every hit

vs

1d10+5 = 15 +2d6 holy + 6 electric and some added damage on crits..+ 2% lightining strikes 600/50 = 12

i m pretty sure the +5 holy geob outdamages the greensteel or comes at least verry close to that.

the lit II bow might be more usefull against other enemies.. but its near useless on edq because that boss got total lightning immunity..

on top of that its not bound and doesnt cost 24 larges

kernal42
02-09-2011, 02:13 PM
you get the full twf line for free go work for your mats already and beat the
mob like everyone else.

Arcane Archer =/= ranger.

There's a strong correlation because it's the obvious way, but it's possible (and fun, and useful) to make an AA based off of barb, favored soul, fighter, etc. These other classes won't have the option of 2wf during cooldown. 2hf perhaps, but that may not even be much better than using the bow without manyshot.

Cheers,
Kernal

kernal42
02-09-2011, 02:15 PM
i m pretty sure the +5 holy geob outdamages the greensteel or comes at least verry close to that.


With the Silver Bow's increased threat range, it will out-damage any other bow if your str (or other +damage modifiers) is high enough.

-Kernal

Crazyfruit
02-09-2011, 02:19 PM
+5 Holy longbow of Greater Evil Outsider bane..

Hehe I was outbid on that one (no buyout) and the darn AH panel lied about time left :( Shoulda stuck one in for 2 million lol


With the Silver Bow's increased threat range, it will out-damage any other bow if your str (or other +damage modifiers) is high enough.

Yup, assuming no or little fort. I think a couple epic bows also have the increased crit range?

EatSmart
02-09-2011, 02:25 PM
bow of elements air and collapsable shortbow have 19-20 x3 crit profile, yes. (re: epic bows)

Talon_Moonshadow
02-09-2011, 02:56 PM
Am I mistaken here in that you're claiming kill-shots on harry demonstrate your damage output?


More correctly claiming that it demonstrated Manyshot's DPS.

While the last shot doesn't necessessarily indicate DPS, looking at the small number of times I ran it on those chars, indicates to me either DPS during Manyshot of a huge amount of luck.

Feel free to interpret as you see fit.

I've also seen archers (myself included) pull agro off of bosses that should have had agro firmly fixed on someone else. With Mayshot.

Or once maybe with just slayer arrows. But to be fair that same quest saw Dark Monks pulling agro everytime they did 500pts of damage too.

It's my point of view that Manyshot and/or Slayer arows do a ton of damage.
From what I have seen in-game, I do not understand why everyone does not think that.

I honestly do not know if non-shot ranging does more or less DPS than the same char would do with melee. I think that varies by build and what weapons you have.
(wrote this wrong)

I do not know if non-manyshot ranging with slayer arrows does more or less DPS then the same char would do with melee, is what I meant to say.

Sante
02-09-2011, 03:11 PM
buy A Basic +1 Metalline Of Pure Good Longbow, I See Em Fairly Cheap Fairly Often. Then When Mr. Stupid That Thinks You Need Dr Breakers On Normal Ask For A Link You Can Toss Him One. Then Switch To Your Silver Inside And Have Fun.

+1

bartosy
02-09-2011, 03:24 PM
It's my point of view that Manyshot and/or Slayer arows do a ton of damage.
From what I have seen in-game, I do not understand why everyone does not think that.

I honestly do not know if non-shot ranging does more or less DPS than the same char would do with melee. I think that varies by build and what weapons you have.

Nobody in this thread says many shot does crappy damage cause quite frankly
its a great damage booster for ranged classes..

but you cant many shot 100% of the time

its a burst and it has a pretty lenghty cooldown and whilte you wait for
the cooldown to wear off your 1 arrow a second just isnt contributing much..

and trust me most melee with decent equip outdamage most arcane archers and especially the ones that keep standing there firing arrows at a pathetic rate once manyshot has ended. Know how to play your character if your a ranger and the many shot has ended get in there with the rest of the melee and contribute as best as you can.

Ofc like kernal pointed out there other ways to become an AA archer and we cant all be rangers, but barbs have there good things too frenzied berserker+ added crit multiplier + good str or bards can add there damage to all party members with there songs and buffs and we can go on and on.

And its also true the silver bow can outdamage most bows.. but it probably require such an insane amount of damage added if it has to compare to a lit II bow or a +5 holy longbow of geob that its unaitanable.. in game.. probably talking about +70 or so..

and omg grazy that bow was fricking insane.. i honestly think it might be worth that or maybe even more.. where did the price end just curious ?

Traver
02-09-2011, 04:09 PM
The op should of just soloed the shroud he is so leet.

And coming to the forums to rant over not
being let into 1 raid... Really?

Dude make a name for yourself, then it won't matter what you play.

Talon_Moonshadow
02-09-2011, 06:32 PM
People keep bring up AA ranging portals in the Shroud.



If you are an AA, go find a training dummy and experiment.

Get a stop watch. And time your self at how long it takes to destry the dummy.

Use Manyshot

Range without Manyshot


And most importantly, melee it!

See for yourself, just how much DPS your char does with bow and sword.
You don't have to take other people's word for it.

The training dummy is not perfect, but it is a great tool to get a feel for what style your char can do the most DPS with.
Especially for a portal, since they are both contructs and cannot be critted.


When it comes to monsters that fight back, greater DPS isn't always the best choice. You have to balance it with damage taken.
But portals dont hit back!

So go find out which method your char can destroy a portal the fastest....and use it.

wax_on_wax_off
02-09-2011, 06:55 PM
/rant on

I got booted from shroud earlier becuse I was an arcane archer :(.
And I also got Banned from running raids with a guild becuse I dont melee:(
The party leader asked what boss beater I was useing and i told him the silver longbow with silver arrows and slay living AA enchancment. and he said i had to go becuse I couldnt do enough dmg.
On a normal hit i do 30-50+ effects, On a crit (17-19) i do 110-140+effects, and On a 20 ill do 600-630+effects and thats not enough dmg serisouly?? And then dont forget manyshot.

Alright /rant off

While your per arrow damage is quite good you have to remember that a melee character will do similar damage but at 3 times the speed or more. Ranged combat just doesn't attack very fast. During manyshot, you are a god. However, while it is on cooldown it is important that you know that it is often appropriate to change to melee weapons. Specifically, while TWF you will probably have about 3 attacks/second, do you think that you can match that with your bow?

All this said, Orien is renowned for bad Shroud runs and my experiences there have held that up. Figure out what time OR are doing their daily elite shroud runs or hook up with this other guild that has invited you along.

To not be a liability in the Shroud, you want 350+ HP and boss beaters or something equivalent (I use a chaosblade and axiomatic burst of greater lawful outsider bane battleaxe which are better than a usual metalline of pure good weapon). If you don't have this then work on it. Do DQ raid, archers are valued there.

EvilDonald
02-10-2011, 01:39 AM
No problem mate. You probably played with either people new to shroud or the gang that needs to look through your inventory and check My DDO.

Crusaders of Justice are doing Shroud runs every tuesday. We usually have 2 groups which we split even and have a few spots in each group free. If you are on keep an eye up - we have done it with several casters and people without bossbeaters. So if there is a spot you are more than welcome to tag along.

I have got the question about my equipment once - my answer - if u have to ask me about my gear u are obviously not good enough:p

Oh - and we do complete our runs. We dont run it to set record time - we do it and help each other. Probably half of us have done 200-300 plus shrouds in Europe before we came over here and can take new people along.


Sir, I tip my hat to you, good form... good form indeed! :o)

Bufo_Alvarius
02-10-2011, 10:41 AM
Gah. I failed my necro-check. GAH!


You failed more than that pardner. Guess who the first person on orien to solo epics was? Heres a hint, something about fruits being crazy.

squeek1984
02-11-2011, 02:31 PM
The op should of just soloed the shroud he is so leet.

And coming to the forums to rant over not
being let into 1 raid... Really?

Dude make a name for yourself, then it won't matter what you play.

This.
I'm not tooting my own horn, but seriously, when people see 12/8 - rogue barbarian, generally they have no idea about my build. But when people see 'Thakolas' they're usually happy to party with me.

Not every build is viable, but given correct planning and proper play, not every person has to be playing the 16-2-2s melee bards, capstones barbs, 12-6-2s fighter tanks, 18/2 casters, exploiters etc...

The game might not have Rifts depth of character design, but it certainly has enough that you should be able to make almost anything work, and well, provided you build it properly and play it correctly.

Nerveya
02-13-2011, 12:23 AM
He isn't off the money you know... AAs make portals their *******. easily even.
also 2 AAs can take harry down in one round if properly dressed, 3 AAs nearly *always* takes harry down one round.
i set up shroud runs all the time (read: daily) and the fastest runs i have had so far always had 3 AAs or more.

Granted there are a LOT of AAs out there with terrible builds who don't understand the class at all. So it might just be that you ran into them. a lot of them. AAs.... are a lot like a sorc class, in the sense that you don't have any wiggle room. you have to know what your end product looks like at lvl 1 and not deviate at all or you DO get a gimp. AAs *need* their gear and their bows to be good.

of course it also helps to *know* the quests and which boss in which raid/epic will wipe the whole group if you decide to manyshot too soon. i am sure that hatetanks loath most AAs for this reason. *shrugs* but the same can be said for all classes. everyone needs a chance to learn. naturally you do not have to be the one to teach them. :)

***I will begin (and end) this post with the following: This is not a "ZOMG AA's are such horrible DPS!!1!" post. It is merely to disprove the silly notion of 2-3 AAs one-rounding Arraetrikos after being necro-quoted and to finally stop the bickering in this thread with some actual calcs that are well thought out and worked out. Use whatever data I post for whatever means you see fit, but know that it was not the original intention. Personally, I couldn't care less about ranged builds as I KNOW they're bad from personal and impersonal experience. I was called out, so I'm responding... nothing more. Heck, even some of your later comments in the post I agree with (especially the one about a lot of bad builds heh) though my epic hatetank has never had aggro taken by anyone with a bow <.<***

As horrible as it sounds, my original point (and one that I make often) still stands. If you're going to make a statement about 2 AA's one-rounding arraetrikos... prove it with a video (or a lot of screenshots heh). Saying something means nothing unless you provide the foundations of a proof to back it up. Judging by your post, you're talking about PURE AAs (aka, people who like to make the jobs of the group significantly harder and stand at 50 yards autoattacking). You did not specify builds, so I'll be assuming 20 RNG for the sake of simplicity and that it's the most common AA build out there. So, let's do some simple math.

Shroud on normal:

Arraetrikos HP = 100,000 (by Vanshilar). 100,000/T = (N)(X + Y) or 100,000N/T = X + Y

X = manyshot DPS Y = Non-manyshot DPS T = Total time in Fight (in seconds) N = # of AAs

For the sake of simplicity (again), let's say all the AAs are exactly the same and roll exactly the same numbers at the same time. Even though Arraetrikos has been timed to be in the arena for approximately 80 seconds, we'll generalize. Plus, we'll assume that your ability to preshot is better than most CoD addicts and you hit Arraetrikos the second he appears. Also, I'm assuming no delays on manyshot, no gaps in attacks (i.e. getting held, becoming helpless, dying), and a FULL 20 seconds of manyshot.

Case 1: 3 AAs

100,000/T = (3)[(20/T)x + [(T-20)/T]
100,000/3T = [(20/T)x + (T/T)y - (20/T)
100,000/3 = 20x - 20y + Ty
5,000/3 = x - y +(T/20)y

Let's simplify further by saying that manyshot is approximately 4 times the DPS of regular shooting (4x the arrows means 4x the base damage and 4 times the effects, so yeah it's close). That means that x = 4y.

With this we have:

5,000/3 = 4y + [(T - 20)/20]y
5,000/3 = [(T + 60)/20]y
100,000/3 = (T + 60)y
or
y = 100,000/3(T + 60)

Let's plug in some T's, shall we?

First, the full 80 seconds.

y = 100,000/420
= 238.1 DPS

60 seconds?

y = 100,000/360
= 277.777...8 DPS

So, let's get down to the nitty-gritty of things. I just took FIVE videos of ranged attacking with a Longbow (To mimic that of a GS longbow), +1 arrows, 20 BAB, and no feats. I got off 56, 57, 56, 57, and 56 attacks in a 60 second timeframe. Let's assume a +/- 1 second error. So 57 attacks in 60 seconds is a very nice approximation.

Now we add to that feats, enhancements, and items that increase alacrity. Let's start out with Rapid Shot and Ranger Capstone (Quiver of Alacrity and BOTH ToD sets are Enhancement Bonuses and won't work with haste) and add Haste. Blah blah number crunching blah blah.

I'm taking data from http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3473776&postcount=30 since I don't have the sets and/or characters to test this out accurately myself. Given the amount of data, it should be sufficient.

So we have 100 attacks in 83 seconds or 1.2 Attacks per second.

Let's review our above findings with a simple comparison. Going back to our Ts:

First Case:

80 Seconds:

y = 238.1 DPS
Plugging in 1.2 APS, we get that
Damage/Attack = 198.42

For 60 seconds?

y = 277.777...8 DPS
Damage/Attack = 231.48

Case 2: 2 AAs

y = 100,000/2(T + 60)

80 seconds:

y = 100,000/280
= 357.14 DPS
Damage/Attack = 297.62

60 seconds:

y = 100,000/240
= 416.666....7
Damage/Attack = 347.22

----------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, those are some pretty large numbers for just normal attacks (remember, I solved for non-manyshot damage). Maybe it's plausible! Maybe Rangers have MASSIVE base damage w/ effects! Let's do some damage calculations and see! :D Since the Quoted Poster said "also 2 AAs can take harry down in one round if properly dressed", I'm going to fully max out these guys w/ past lives, gear, temporary buffs, and songs just to prove my point!

Level 20 Horc Ranger
I chose Horc because of Orcish Fury, rage enhancements, and +4 STR over elf/helf. This is more than elven ranged damage and comparable to rogue dille.
STR = 76 (20 base + 5 level ups + 2 enhancements + 4 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 3 profane + 2 Completionist + 2 ship buff + 2 Rage Spell + 2 yugo pot + 2 store pot + 6 titan's grip + 3 house D pot + 2 house D pot + 4 Barbarian Rage Past life + 2 Half-orc Rage Enhancements + 4 Orcish Fury for being at <10% HP perpetually and not dying! +2 Madstone (can't get double since you're raged)) *Note: Let's totally pretend you can sustain that for at least 80 seconds without any sort of delay from re-eating consumables! Totally legit <.<
DEX = 18+ (Base + 2 tome + whatever)
CON = everything else
Everything else = DUMP
Past Lives: 1x Barbarian, 1x Bard, 1x Cleric, 1x Favored Soul, 1x Fighter, 3x Monk, 1x Paladin, 3x Ranger, 3x Rogue, 1x Sorc, 1x Wizard
Feats: Completionist, Barbarian Active Past Life, Paladin Active Past Life, Rogue Active Past Life, Improved Crit: Ranged

Against a Favored Enemy w/ 100% SA (50% fort) and no DR/-. Assume that you only miss on a 1 and you confirm all your crits and slayer arrow procs.

Lit II Bow:
Base Damage: Base 1d10 + 5 Weapon Modifier + 33 Strength Modifier + 9 Past Life + 1 Point Blank Shot + 2 Shintao + 2 Encrusted + 4 Epic Claw Set + 4 Tharnes (50% fort) + 1.5 Rogue Past Life + 2.5 Rogue Active Past Life + 3 Paladin Active Past Life + 14 Favored Enemy (lvl 20 feat + 4 enhancements) + 9 Bard Song (lvl 20 Warchanter Bard) + 5 Halfling Companion +2 Abishai Cookie Set
Average Base Damage: 117.875
Average Proc Effects: 7 Holy + 3.5 Shock + 1.1 Shocking Burst + 1.8 Shocking Blast (Burst Effect + natural 20 effect) + 25 Slayer Arrows + 15.25 Lightning Strike (610 Damage 2.5% proc rate)

Total Damage/Attack: 117.875 + 53.65 = 171.525 * 1.05 (Inspire Recklessness) = 180.1

Ok... so impossible for 3 AA's for the 80 second bracket w/ a lit II... Maybe a different weapon?

Epic Thordlord w/ Devil's Ruin Augment and GEOB Arrows:
Base Damage: 2d8+4+8 + blah....a lot = 128.375
Average Base Damage: 180.06
Average Proc Effects: 25 Slayer Arrow + 3d6 GEOB

Total Damage/Attack: 173.31 + 35.5 = 208.81 *1.1 (Inspire Recklessness) = 219.25

Huzzah! We have a winner! With this setup it is possible to 1 round Arraetrikos w/ 3 AAs in around 70 or so seconds. All you need to do is assume perfect situations, have every gear and buff known to mankind, and bend the laws of DDO. Thus, I can honestly say that from the math, it is statistically improbable to a LARGE extent for 3 AAs to one-round Arraetrikos even with the best gear given 80 seconds. Sorry dude, but the numbers don't lie.

There are other AA builds out there, but given the amount of tolerance my numbers have it won't disqualify any statements I make. I made REDICULOUS assumptions, gave the build EVERYTHING possible, and it still only barely made it to 3-manning Arraetrikos in 80 seconds. 3 AA's almost always one-round him? I'd love to see a vid.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

So yeah... I would just like to say that this was mostly a mathematical exercise. There are a lot of assumptions made that make the situations far too ideal. As such, you can assume that the numbers I gave are THE BEST POSSIBLE and that any normal data sets you receive will be significantly WORSE than that (within 10-15% worse). If you look over my calcs and see anything wrong, by all means point it out. But the tolerance is so stupidly large that minor errors won't disqualify any statements I've made.

In conclusion, as I said above, you can safely say that it is most likely impossible for 3 AAs to one-round Arraetrikos on normal even given 80 seconds. This is not a "omg, AA's are such horrible DPS!" post. This is to disprove the foolish post I quoted (and that he quoted me and called me out) and to finally stop all the bickering in this thread. Look at my numbers and quietly think to yourself about what they mean. And that brings me to my earlier statement... Video or it didn't happen.

P.S. Don't necro threads about topics that have been beaten to death on the ranger forums for years. It's annoying. When you're doing your search for random threads to post your opinion on, use the best filter you've got: your eyes. Seriously, look at the post dates and let threads DIE. It should be the first thing you do period. I know you apologized for it, but sometimes apologies aren't enough especially with something as dull, broken, and beaten as Ranged DPS arguments. And everyone posting afterward is just as guilty! You're feeding this topic even more than the OP was! Go off to the ranger forums if you want to argue about who's more gimp than yourself. Seriously, this has little to do with Orien anymore. Move on.

stille_nacht
02-13-2011, 10:48 AM
people are waaaay to paranoid about shroud runs nowadays >.>

they think they need a 18-20 party with 1 caster, 3 healers, a bard, and 7 damage dealers on normal. Trash. Ive run shroud with 3 casters, no bard, and only 3 barb/fighter, and it was still easy. because its a level 16 quest, on normal...


anyway, why use a silver longbow with silver arrows? wouldnt putting a holy longbow completely break his dr?

edit nvm, looked it up, the silver longbow is holy? weirdness o-O, also, does the +1 crit range make it better than a holy burst of pg longbow?

Nerveya
02-13-2011, 11:02 AM
people are waaaay to paranoid about shroud runs nowadays >.>

they think they need a 18-20 party with 1 caster, 3 healers, a bard, and 7 damage dealers on normal. Trash. Ive run shroud with 3 casters, no bard, and only 3 barb/fighter, and it was still easy. because its a level 16 quest, on normal...


anyway, why use a silver longbow with silver arrows? wouldnt putting a holy longbow completely break his dr?

That is true. With the gear available nowadays and people of orien gradually increasing in competency, Shroud is a cakewalk compared to a year ago. You don't need an ideal setup at all... heck, you don't even need a semi-ideal setup or 12 people to complete on normal. Hard/Elite is a little different story, but not too much.

Arraetrikos has Good + Silver DR. A holy longbow would only have good-breaking DR and thus you wouldn't break it. A lot of common uses for DR breaking are the Lit II bow (w/ holy) and silver arrows, Silver bow (holy) w/ silver arrows, Epic Bows (w/ good augment slot in the red slot) w/ silver arrows... or an epic bow w/ the devil's ruin augment in the red slot and any arrow you want! I see a pattern here lol. Or you could just make a min II bow or use a metalline of pure good/holy silver bow... which I don't recommend the former at all because arrow and bow DR bypassing stack and it's a waste of mats :/

PopeJual
02-13-2011, 11:20 AM
My archers do not have power attack, are squishy (no toughness either), and don't have the free feats that a ranger would get. Last life my arrows were critting for 900. Life before that was 140 a shot (rogue). Telling them to melee is stupid, same goes for the pure rangers if you're not sure they have weapons as good as their bows :)

If an AA Ranger has such garbage weapons with him that his melee does less damage than his bow when Manyshot is off, then he probably should be excluded from a Shroud until he picks up a couple of not-entirely-worthless weapons.

Saying that you're squishy and don't have power attack is not a good advertisement for Arcane Archers. :)

PopeJual
02-13-2011, 11:23 AM
people are waaaay to paranoid about shroud runs nowadays >.>

they think they need a 18-20 party with 1 caster, 3 healers, a bard, and 7 damage dealers on normal. Trash. Ive run shroud with 3 casters, no bard, and only 3 barb/fighter, and it was still easy. because its a level 16 quest, on normal...


anyway, why use a silver longbow with silver arrows? wouldnt putting a holy longbow completely break his dr?

edit nvm, looked it up, the silver longbow is holy? weirdness o-O, also, does the +1 crit range make it better than a holy burst of pg longbow?

It is weird that the Silver Bow is Holy and not Silver at all. :)

Also, if your base damage + Strength + bonuses +whatever is good enough, then the extra crit range will be significantly better than the bonus damage that you get from Holy Burst and Pure Good. It will not be better for most non-AA folks, but hopefully the Arcane Archers who carry the Silver Bow do have a good Strength, bonus damage, etc.

OLDTIMEDD
02-13-2011, 11:37 AM
NOt on Orien, but have run a coup[le shouds with my guild on Thelanis s a AA Ranger and get no hate about ranged. But as one other p[ointed out , if too close pull my scimitars of most appropriate effects and slash away... As for kiting, have been asked to do so for certain mobs in quests..

The biggest thing I dislike is as the OP stated being disallowed/banned by overly ridged persons who think "my way or the highway" mentallity. Doesn't work in real life, so why would it work in game?

Just my humble opinion :rolleyes:

Crazyfruit
02-13-2011, 12:20 PM
Buffy, you're insane lol. Can you run the numbers a typical ranger AA on Orien would have? I think that'd be pretty useful for the class & group leaders alike.

Let's say:

Silver Bow w/ Silver & Slayer arrows vs.
2 Metalline of Pure Garbage weapons (random junky ones) vs.
Two really nice DR bypassers

Evil Outsider favored enemy.


Saying that you're squishy and don't have power attack is not a good advertisement for Arcane Archers. :)

No kidding haha :D I think all the clerics on Orien would have a seizure (sorry Happlo) if every archer started copying my builds without the playstyle.

But it is a good example of sacrifices you have to make to have decent ranged damage on a non-ranger... so many feats!

Nerveya
02-13-2011, 12:47 PM
Buffy, you're insane lol. Can you run the numbers a typical ranger AA on Orien would have? I think that'd be pretty useful for the class & group leaders alike.

Let's say:

Silver Bow w/ Silver & Slayer arrows vs.
2 Metalline of Pure Garbage weapons (random junky ones) vs.
Two really nice DR bypassers

Evil Outsider favored enemy.



Sure. Just doing some homework and I'll get on that. It's all the same formulas, so I just need to look up some basic gear and stuff. I'm thinking of gear layouts like 'poor' 'good' 'very good'. I may only have room to include a few builds... like 20 ranger, Fighter Kensai, Rogue Assassin, etc... But it should do the trick. I'll repost later.

unscythe
02-13-2011, 01:02 PM
That is true. With the gear available nowadays and people of orien gradually increasing in competency, Shroud is a cakewalk compared to a year ago. You don't need an ideal setup at all... heck, you don't even need a semi-ideal setup or 12 people to complete on normal. Hard/Elite is a little different story, but not too much.

Arraetrikos has Good + Silver DR. A holy longbow would only have good-breaking DR and thus you wouldn't break it. A lot of common uses for DR breaking are the Lit II bow (w/ holy) and silver arrows, Silver bow (holy) w/ silver arrows, Epic Bows (w/ good augment slot in the red slot) w/ silver arrows... or an epic bow w/ the devil's ruin augment in the red slot and any arrow you want! I see a pattern here lol. Or you could just make a min II bow or use a metalline of pure good/holy silver bow... which I don't recommend the former at all because arrow and bow DR bypassing stack and it's a waste of mats :/

A year ago shrouds weren't run that often. A year ago Bril started teaching the puggers that got shroud flagged, so it got done. I should also add in, the people who shroud flagged themselves were more willing to learn, and didnt pike to flag.

Half a year ago is a different story. :D

Delt
02-13-2011, 02:01 PM
You don't need to run into many **** AA's to learn to hate them all. Every moron that leaves auto-attack on, kites stuff back & forth or manyshots off the bat to grab aggro in scenario's where they shouldn't overshadows every 6 six decent AA's people run into after.

The only thing that ****es me off more than an idiot with an AA is an intim that doesn't know what he is doing....we need an intim hate thread.

unscythe
02-14-2011, 09:44 AM
You don't need to run into many **** AA's to learn to hate them all. Every moron that leaves auto-attack on, kites stuff back & forth or manyshots off the bat to grab aggro in scenario's where they shouldn't overshadows every 6 six decent AA's people run into after.

The only thing that ****es me off more than an idiot with an AA is an intim that doesn't know what he is doing....we need an intim hate thread.

Those threads do not exist because the intim tank usually can't kite all those mobs. So they usually learn quick when the party tells the healer to stop.

Also, fewer scenarios where an intim causes more grief then a trigger happy AA. Intim has atleast a cool down, and someone else with enough intim can pull mobs away I believe.