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View Full Version : A suggestion for more interesting PvP (attempt 2)



Devonian
05-27-2010, 05:47 AM
Forum glitch ate this yesterday, so here goes for a second try.

Now to start up, I am not typically a PvP fan as such,finding it preferable to roam well beyond reach of the ganking degenerates who think their twinked uber build vs my starting newby is a fair fight. But it has occurred to me that the nature of our setting in Xen'dirk offers an interesting opportunity for something a bit more toothsome than arena fights or bar room brawling.

I grant that balance would be needed, I am not going to address the hows or what's. Rather, if you want PvP, here is a way to do it that could be fun, and invoke a bit more of the flavour of the setting.

*Stormreach is as I am sure most of you know, a colony, a Settlement emplaced on a hostile unforgiving continent by the nation of Breland, served by its great port city Sharn. It was established, becase of dragon shards.

Khyber shards, used in the binding of elementals and other mystical beasts are common enough, they need to be, because the Lightning Rail and Airships and many other things besides, depend upon them to function. Dig deep enough into the underdark and into the caverns of the Dragon Below, and you will find nurseries of the shards, abet amid dangers such as rakasha and bound delkyr.

Eberron shards are common enough too, house Thrashk and its mark of finding brings them up in copious quantities from the fenlands of the demon wastes, breaking their egg like geodes to extract the precious shards for use in all manner of enchantment, from street lights, to Kundrak's banks and Orien's mail stations.

But Syberies shards? The main of those form a glittering ring that girdles the sky. They are used in rare things, the psionics of the Inspired, mighty artefacts, devices to elevate the pursuance of dragon mark and spell. They are found in two places only. Upon the cold and stormy dragon haunted shores of Argonsen where none dare tread, and here, on Xen'dirk in the drow haunted rainforests near Stormreach.

To find them, divinations are used to see when and approximately where shardfall will occur next. clusters of golden syberies shards falling from the ring above in crashing fury amid the woods and ruins below. Prospectors head out early, seeking safe points, high points to observe shardfall, then fight their way though ruin and rainforest to harvest the precious shards and return.

Its not unheard of that two bands make for the same fall of syberies shards, and even less rare for violence to ensue when this happens...*

Basicly I'm seeing a new NPC called oh 'shardfall diviner' you form a party, talk to him about immanent shardfalls and wait to another band of roughly even power does the same, then you are both sent to something like a wilderness map curently, an area of Xen'dirk that has experienced shardfall. on opposite sides you enter, and face the difficulties of local beasts, tribal drow, and of course the other party. Both of you trying to find the 'Fresh fallen syberies shards' without dying.

The fresh fallen shards would act as tokens, randomly cached on the map or in the inventory of bosses, if you are carrying any and get killed they are dropped, if you manage to leave the map with enough of them you get tokens, say Thrashk credit notes as they run the shard trade, proportional to the shards claimed by all your party mates, that can then be exchanged for special gear.

Zippo
05-27-2010, 05:52 AM
I grant that balance would be needed

This comment alone shows exactly why it should not be done in DDO.

Rasczak
05-27-2010, 07:59 AM
This comment alone shows exactly why it should not be done in DDO.

I always thought that maybe Unreal tourney way back in the day would change PvP and in a way it did. Let's stop asking to stand in a circle and hit each other, use the abbot puzzles or an area like Tempest spine and do the deed. I'm no PvP lover, I prefer co-operative modes, but I know there is a demand and to make it easier, just whack out instances like slayers and large open quests (gwylan's, stormcleave, new sentinel stuff etc) and use those as play areas. Do some capture the greased halfling and throw it into the dinner pot for 1 point, winner takes all, do some guild vs guild war's where each side puts some gold in for the winner, do some race against time puzzle, co-operative lever pulling/shooting/killing blah blah blah. The people are askign for PvP so use what we have in place already and you have most of the problem solved. No balance needed really in open area team event.

Gyipooo
01-11-2011, 02:40 PM
I always thought that maybe Unreal tourney way back in the day would change PvP and in a way it did. Let's stop asking to stand in a circle and hit each other, use the abbot puzzles or an area like Tempest spine and do the deed. I'm no PvP lover, I prefer co-operative modes, but I know there is a demand and to make it easier, just whack out instances like slayers and large open quests (gwylan's, stormcleave, new sentinel stuff etc) and use those as play areas. Do some capture the greased halfling and throw it into the dinner pot for 1 point, winner takes all, do some guild vs guild war's where each side puts some gold in for the winner, do some race against time puzzle, co-operative lever pulling/shooting/killing blah blah blah. The people are askign for PvP so use what we have in place already and you have most of the problem solved. No balance needed really in open area team event.

I think it's like the first post about PvP that's not the offending or trolling of someone, I really like it. Solves problems, doesn't consume resources, doesn't alter the PvE balance, PvP players get some fun too.
And it's only me who thinks it would be awesome to have the best PvP and PvE system too in DDO, but some people find having a designed PvP system offensive, because they don't like that. "Stop liking what I don't like!"

I bet this thread will be full of the usual stuff too in minutes.

Angelus_dead
01-11-2011, 02:48 PM
I grant that balance would be needed, I am not going to address the hows or what's. Rather, if you want PvP, here is a way to do it that could be fun, and invoke a bit more of the flavour of the setting.
The setting flavor and whatever rewards are there for PVP victory are all secondary concerns that are meaningless unless PVP first has entertaining gameplay. Presently the PVP gameplay is heavily flawed so that it's only fun under serious and unreaslistic restrictions (such as not actually trying to win)

nanobot1994
01-11-2011, 02:58 PM
My suggestion:

Leave. PvP. Alone.

Dont like it? Ignore the posts, or the people, who talk about pvp, never step into the pvp arena. Quit flaming it.
Like it? Thats nice, we dont really care about your suggestions to improve it. Its honestly just making the situation WORSE.

Ie just stop drawing attention to pvp... enjoy it as is, or leave it alone.

Sythinator
01-11-2011, 03:01 PM
I am the winnerest of pvp

FoxCourier
01-11-2011, 03:04 PM
My suggestion:

Leave. PvP. Alone.

Dont like it? Ignore the posts, or the people, who talk about pvp, never step into the pvp arena. Quit flaming it.
Like it? Thats nice, we dont really care about your suggestions to improve it. Its honestly just making the situation WORSE.

Ie just stop drawing attention to pvp... enjoy it as is, or leave it alone.

That's a confusing statement. You don't want the possibility of better PVP?

Rather then speculate, I'll just ask one simple question: Why not?

krud
01-11-2011, 03:30 PM
The fresh fallen shards would act as tokens, randomly cached on the map or in the inventory of bosses, if you are carrying any and get killed they are dropped, if you manage to leave the map with enough of them you get tokens, say Thrashk credit notes as they run the shard trade, proportional to the shards claimed by all your party mates, that can then be exchanged for special gear.
Absolutely no to real rewards for anything in PvP, ever!

if you want to buy funny hats or goofy oufits with it fine, but real rewards for anything in pvp just opens it up for abuse.

nanobot1994
01-11-2011, 05:11 PM
That's a confusing statement. You don't want the possibility of better PVP?

Rather then speculate, I'll just ask one simple question: Why not?

For 2 reasons.
Because it just inflames tempers here. I think that wouldve been obvious by how almost every suggestion on PvP gets shot down.
There is no 'better' PvP. PvP would require the classes to be balanced amongst themselves... that just wont happen here. There is no way at all you can take jump kiting away from casters in PvP. As long as that stays, melee are at a severe disadvantage. If they make it so slayers cant be used in PvP, none but the best geared AAs would get through DR. If I wanted a PvP game, I'd go play something else, I just cant see how PvP can be made better without quite a bit of thought and effort put into it, and the majority would rather see that effort go into more quests/races/clases.

Just enjoy it as is...

Cam_Neely
01-11-2011, 05:17 PM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3141736&postcount=11

^My Thought.

Additionally, any PvP that requires a re balancing is a non starter. It has to be accepted that this is mainly a PvE game, and PvP is an after thought. Ya people would roll up specific toons to be their OP PvP toon. So what?

(and a response to clarify the first link)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3144352&postcount=15

FoxCourier
01-11-2011, 05:35 PM
For 2 reasons.
Because it just inflames tempers here. I think that wouldve been obvious by how almost every suggestion on PvP gets shot down.
There is no 'better' PvP. PvP would require the classes to be balanced amongst themselves... that just wont happen here. There is no way at all you can take jump kiting away from casters in PvP. As long as that stays, melee are at a severe disadvantage. If they make it so slayers cant be used in PvP, none but the best geared AAs would get through DR. If I wanted a PvP game, I'd go play something else, I just cant see how PvP can be made better without quite a bit of thought and effort put into it, and the majority would rather see that effort go into more quests/races/clases.

Just enjoy it as is...

So, because you think that it cannot be fixed, they shouldn't do anything to it ever and leave it in the same sad state that it is in currently?

That seems rather depressing and pessimistic, if you ask me.

flynnjsw
01-11-2011, 05:43 PM
So, because you think that it cannot be fixed, they shouldn't do anything to it ever and leave it in the same sad state that it is in currently?

That seems rather depressing and pessimistic, if you ask me.

Why is it pessimistic? This game was not designed around PvP. Most players do not want the type of people PvP games bring. Most people are perfectly content with the way things are. I fail to see the pessimism.

FoxCourier
01-11-2011, 05:54 PM
Why is it pessimistic? This game was not designed around PvP. Most players do not want the type of people PvP games bring. Most people are perfectly content with the way things are. I fail to see the pessimism.

I'm not sure how it's not there - the act of not wanting to change something for the better because it is 'broken and will never get fixed' is a very pessimistic point of view. It's the textbook definition of the term - an attitude defined by absolute hopelessness of the situation and expecting the worst will come of any attempt to fix it.

Post cut short to avoid soap boxing.

flynnjsw
01-11-2011, 06:03 PM
I'm not sure how it's not there - the act of not wanting to change something for the better because it is 'broken and will never get fixed' is a very pessimistic point of view. It's the textbook definition of the term - an attitude defined by absolute hopelessness of the situation and expecting the worst will come of any attempt to fix it.

Post cut short to avoid soap boxing.

Some of us believe that it is not broken. You know, one of those "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" kind of deals. Besides, in PvP opinions vary on what is truly "better".

FoxCourier
01-11-2011, 06:08 PM
Some of us believe that it is not broken. You know, one of those "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" kind of deals. Besides, in PvP opinions vary on what is truly "better".

We'll leave it at a matter of opinion, then.

This post also cut short to avoid doing the opposite of the above sentence.

Zardonyx
01-11-2011, 06:15 PM
Additionally, any PvP that requires a re balancing is a non starter. It has to be accepted that this is mainly a PvE game, and PvP is an after thought.

This really understates the case. DDO is based on the D&D ruleset, which was no one ever imagined would be used for the kind of PvP that occurs in MMOs. Turbine has enough trouble keeping the classes somewhat 'balanced' for PvE. PvP is a total non-starter.

Bradik_Losdar
01-11-2011, 06:15 PM
<snip>
I grant that balance would be needed, I am not going to address the hows or what's.
<snip>

This invalidates everything else in the OP.

DDO is NOT, I repeat NOT a PvP game. If you are looking for that, go play Guild Wars or any number of other PvP centric games on the market.

If you want an example of just how trying to "balance" PvP screws up a game, just look to WoW. Constant, never ending tweaking to satisfy the current vocal minority.

I'd rather the devs spend their time working on more great quests, new monsters, and character improvements (PrEs, classes, etc) than waste even 10 seconds on trying to make PvP 'better' in this NON-PvP game. :mad:

nanobot1994
01-11-2011, 06:21 PM
Ok then, please list some ways pvp can be 'improved' while spending no dev time that can be used to make the majority happier. Im all ears, I love pvp myself, I just fail to see how parading that over the forums helps anything. Look at it logically, I doubt the devs will spend the resources to make the very small minority happy, when they can use the same amount of effort to please the majority and get more profit.

Its not pessimism, its logical thinking. In the end, turbine will do what brings them more profit, improving pvp is a less profit:effort ration, than for example, quests.

EDIT: Saying 'neither of us can think of a viable way to make pvp better, but youre pessimistic because you voiced that.' makes no sense.

FoxCourier
01-11-2011, 06:30 PM
Ok then, please list some ways pvp can be 'improved' while spending no dev time that can be used to make the majority happier. Im all ears, I love pvp myself, I just fail to see how parading that over the forums helps anything. Look at it logically, I doubt the devs will spend the resources to make the very small minority happy, when they can use the same amount of effort to please the majority and get more profit.

Its not pessimism, its logical thinking. In the end, turbine will do what brings them more profit, improving pvp is a less profit:effort ration, than for example, quests.

'Looking at it logically' doesn't in any way imply that you have to go around telling others not to even bother at least attempting to come up with something that could be implemented to at least improve the state of PVP in this game. Even if nothing comes from it, there isn't exactly a lot of harm in doing so, is there? Other then wasted space in the Suggestions forum (and to be perfectly honest, there's plenty of bloat here as it is).

Perhaps you could take some of your own advice in the matter and (to paraphrase) leave the subject alone and avoid posting on it if you don't think anything will ever be done on it. If you have specific issues against the idea, then by all means, debate those points rather then telling people not to bother.

Fatalism isn't exactly constructive, either.

EDIT: In response to 'coming up with something', I have to wonder if I ever implied I really cared all that much about making things better in the first place. To be honest, I'm rather apathetic to the idea of PVP in this game (for a number of reasons already illustrated in this thread, number one being the base game isn't exactly well designed for PVP-type actions in the first place as viewed by the modern MMO community). I can see where one can infer otherwise, but I can't say I ever implicitly stated anywhere I really cared.

In fact, all I do recall implicitly stating is that I'm confused at why someone that clearly at least cares a little about PVP is one of the first people to condemn any attempt to improve it. It's derailed further from there.

To that end, I'd like to apologize to the OP for the tangent.

SardaofChaos
01-11-2011, 06:33 PM
The setting flavor and whatever rewards are there for PVP victory are all secondary concerns that are meaningless unless PVP first has entertaining gameplay. Presently the PVP gameplay is heavily flawed so that it's only fun under serious and unreaslistic restrictions (such as not actually trying to win)

Wait, since when was any pvp game ever fun when everyone was trying to win?

Musouka
01-11-2011, 10:18 PM
So... I was in a pvp match with a couple of trash talking lowbies that were just challenging anyone that came into their sights.

I turn on my greater dragon mark of storm and just wait for the lightning to hit them and kill them each time. Hilarious.

I don't think pvp needs to be better, as it is a good tool to put those trash talking kids on their f2p accounts in their place and shut them up.

Khanyth
01-12-2011, 09:29 AM
/notsignedatall

PVP was created and now it should be left alone. No improvements. No bug fixes to it. No alterations. No new areas. No nothing. Take it or leave it. Thanks for coming out. Bye bye.

DDO is not PVP. If people don't like that, quit the game.

Anything that takes time, effort, and creativity from any member of Turbine away from the main aspects of the game gets a big thumbs down from me.

The only effort that devs should make regarding PvP is its removal.