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noinfo
05-26-2010, 09:43 PM
Grazing hits review

It would be nice to have dev feedback on this...
Back before EU came out there was a lot of fuss that led to grazing hits

1. Players were complaining about missing a lot (the impact of grazing on hitting monsters is minimal latter in game
anyway)
2. They wanted to create a reason for S/B over monk/high dex splashes.
3. They wanted to be able to lower the to hit numbers of monsters and still have effect on those ac toons.

I disagreed with the implementation at the time, but won't go into that, instead I would like a chance to reflect on

the changes:
1. Predominant HP/Dps tanks, meaning ultimately Barbarians in a role they are conceptually not designed for.
2. S/B invalidated in what should be their primary role, the reduction of damage via shield vs grazing is not
particulary effective at higher levels.
3. Predominant melee builds for perceived end game of Epic focus on DPS and HP, the reality is that despite what
other melee think this is Barbarian/Kensai teritory others will always lack in this area.
I like the proposed change to B Swords and D axes as they will give the S/B at least some dps boost which is what
the S/B tank really needed to compete with 2weapon fighters.
There is a massive ballance issue at upper game with ac toons particulary on elite and above. Grazing hits on
players only exagerates this further.

Thoughts?

Removing Grazing would give some life back to the tanks and ac toons suffering at higher levels and would not detract from anyone elses gameplay or contribute to lag :-p

or more importantly is there a need for grazing hits to still be implemented on players?

Nezichiend
05-26-2010, 10:02 PM
The problem isn't grazing hits, it is high monster to-hit. Especially on epic. If grazing hits were removed on epic, almost no one would notice because they are getting hit anyway.

noinfo
05-26-2010, 10:13 PM
The problem isn't grazing hits, it is high monster to-hit. Especially on epic. If grazing hits were removed on epic, almost no one would notice because they are getting hit anyway.

Don't get me wrong, there is much more than grazing that needs attention but I want to address one thing at a time and grazing was a relatively recent and contriversial addition that I beleive many would see benefit from removing and no-one would be disadvantaged.

sirgog
05-27-2010, 02:10 AM
Players pretty seldom suffer grazing hits at the moment, except at lower levels.

The only real effect that monsters suffering grazes has on the game is that mid-high AC mobs with very low HP are more fragile. There aren't many of these at all in the game, maybe some bats, that's all.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 06:03 AM
Players pretty seldom suffer grazing hits at the moment, except at lower levels.

The only real effect that monsters suffering grazes has on the game is that mid-high AC mobs with very low HP are more fragile. There aren't many of these at all in the game, maybe some bats, that's all.

Sorry you are wrong on that, they may not suffer them in Epic but we sure as hell get them everywhere else. On your cleric you wouldn't be getting grazing (hit on a 2 or better :-p) and in effect in a full group often the so called grazing hits can be a reasonable whack especially on elite when it is 15+.

blitzschlag
05-27-2010, 06:05 AM
the problem is that you can have a range from ac 10 to 110 on a d20 based game. sounds funny? its not!

noinfo
05-27-2010, 06:08 AM
the problem is that you can have a range from ac 10 to 110 on a d20 based game. sounds funny? its not!

I am well aware of what the ranges of ac are, problem is there is just as wide a gap with dps or with to hit ranges. No one is calling for melee to automatically miss on a 1-5 or graze on a 2-5 on elite to balance it out and help monsters live.

So I am still curious as to why grazing should continue?

Propane
05-27-2010, 06:20 AM
As far as S&B goes -

I thought it might be intersted if the upped the DR a few (maybe like 5 acrross the board - pun :) and gave a percentage (25-50) of that DR while holding the shield (vs blocking). That with a some increased in DPS (D-axe and B-sword a nice start) would give a little more life to the S&B builds.

sirgog
05-27-2010, 06:25 AM
Sorry you are wrong on that, they may not suffer them in Epic but we sure as hell get them everywhere else. On your cleric you wouldn't be getting grazing (hit on a 2 or better :-p) and in effect in a full group often the so called grazing hits can be a reasonable whack especially on elite when it is 15+.

Almost noone I ever run with (and that's a LOT of PUG groups) has enough AC to suffer grazing hits in anything past Elite Gianthold.

You need an AC in the mid to high 60s to see them in Elite Vale quests (otherwise mobs hit you on a 15+ and so don't graze). Few players bother with such an AC any more; fewer still take such an AC into Amrath or Epics.

That said, one player (and only one) has reported suffering a grazing hit from Epic Lailat. Their AC at the time? 104.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 07:01 AM
Almost noone I ever run with (and that's a LOT of PUG groups) has enough AC to suffer grazing hits in anything past Elite Gianthold.

You need an AC in the mid to high 60s to see them in Elite Vale quests (otherwise mobs hit you on a 15+ and so don't graze). Few players bother with such an AC any more; fewer still take such an AC into Amrath or Epics.

That said, one player (and only one) has reported suffering a grazing hit from Epic Lailat. Their AC at the time? 104.

First I pug at least as much, you basically have to when you level as many toons as I do (altism is a curse). I agree that many less do ac now and that is an issue related at least in part to grazing. 65 ac is seriously not hard to hit without any real effort, the problem is people are not bothering with it because even if u achieve it, it begins to be trivialised in elite quests with 15+ hits.

Remember back to before EU and grazing hits, ac meant a lot more, to trivalise it with grazing has had a signifcant issues to gameplay as you saw many ac based toons. That 104 ac would have been maintained for about 20 seconds btw, and the fact that that happend demonstrates how broken epic quests are in there current format.

As I said epic is another issue altogether that needs to be dealt with and I am not one I am going to get sidetracked on.

Bottom line is that a step to correcting ac issues is a review of grazing hits by the devs.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 07:09 AM
As far as S&B goes -

I thought it might be intersted if the upped the DR a few (maybe like 5 acrross the board - pun :) and gave a percentage (25-50) of that DR while holding the shield (vs blocking). That with a some increased in DPS (D-axe and B-sword a nice start) would give a little more life to the S&B builds.

Further balancing S/B is an issue, it is get a dps boost (and it is getting one but until trialed we won't know how useful) it still benefits from the removal of grazing as well.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 07:10 AM
Actually you are helping prove my point


Almost noone I ever run with (and that's a LOT of PUG groups) has enough AC to suffer grazing hits in anything past Elite Gianthold.



Therefore grazing is not needed?

Angelus_dead
05-27-2010, 07:42 AM
Although I would like to see them modified to be a bit more consistent with traditional D&D rules, grazing hits are not currently a real problem. Remember that grazing hits from monsters were nerfed since their original version. I get grazed when tanking Horoth/Suulomades, and so what? The damage is a lot less than his regular hit, so it's no big deal.

Grazing hits provide a useful escape valve when players find themselves up against a monster with excessive AC, particularly certain bosses who are out of balance with the rest of their quest.

The most important thing to fix with monster grazing is how it is based directly on dungeon difficulty, which puts it out of balance with how other dangers scale. On Normal the mobs have a 10% chance to graze, which is only 2x their chance for an automatic full hit. But Elite gives them a 35% chance of grazes, in addition to having a much higher attack bonus. That's double-dipping.

This means that AC becomes a relatively weaker defense as you raise the difficulty mode, even if the players boost their AC to keep up with the enemy attack bonus. Grazing hits would be a problem in elite Tower or epic dungeons, except that players never go there with enough AC to matter anyhow. It's bad that a CR 9 Ogre grazes more if he lives in a level 5 Elite quest than a level 8 Normal quest: if it's good gameplay for elite monsters to graze on 13-19 then it would also sometime be good for normal monsters to do that too.

I would uncouple grazing chance from difficulty mode, and instead create feats or enhancement for "Improved Grazing" and "Greater Grazing". Player characters wouldn't be interested in them (as they'd effectively have them for free already), but they could be added to some monsters to help them chip away at high-AC players. This way the encounter designers can adjust grazing chance independently from difficulty setting.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 07:49 AM
...

Grazing hits provide a useful escape valve when players find themselves up against a monster with excessive AC, particularly certain bosses who are out of balance with the rest of their quest.

This I have no problem with.

I realy do not see any real support for why players should be stuck with receiving them though in your post. Give players a bit of a boost is fine, imagine the outcry if grazing were implemented on attack rolls instead. Where no matter what your bab you would graze on a 2-5 on elite. Seriously it is no longer needed if it ever was.

Gercho
05-27-2010, 08:01 AM
Grazing hits are usefull for certain builds that have high ac and mana regeneration (i know not that many) but those builds actually benefit from being grazed...
I dont think removing grazing hits will make people go for AC again, and will nerf the high ac mana regeneration builds, that coincidentally are builds really hard to equip and will get very ****ed...

Josh
05-27-2010, 08:04 AM
It would be nice to have dev feedback on this...

I needed a good laugh this morning. Thanks!

noinfo
05-27-2010, 08:05 AM
Grazing hits are usefull for certain builds that have high ac and mana regeneration (i know not that many) but those builds actually benefit from being grazed...
I dont think removing grazing hits will make people go for AC again, and will nerf the high ac mana regeneration builds, that coincidentally are builds really hard to equip and will get very ****ed...

Seriously? The only one that requires actual damage is the torc and most just use a hound sheild.

Angelus_dead
05-27-2010, 08:05 AM
I realy do not see any real support for why players should be stuck with receiving them though in your post.
To shift the balance between offense and defense, to increase the incentive for players to play offensively, which is more fun because it involves taking actions. Grazing hits do help balance damage a little between low and high AC characters, while still leaving AC a benefit.

But as I explained, where grazing becomes a problem is when it gets worse just because you picked a higher difficulty.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 08:07 AM
I needed a good laugh this morning. Thanks!

No problem I thought it funny too.

SquelchHU
05-27-2010, 08:13 AM
Why grazing hits exist:

If you take any amount of damage while pulling a lever, the action is interrupted.

Think about it.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 08:15 AM
Why grazing hits exist:

If you take any amount of damage while pulling a lever, the action is interrupted.

Think about it.

Yep we can't have ac lever pullers...

SquelchHU
05-27-2010, 08:18 AM
Yep we can't have zergers...

Fixed.

If you think grazing hits are really about people missing the already AC nerfed monsters on high numbers I got some beachfront property to sell you in Siberia.

The only reason grazing hits exist is to punish players for playing in the way that their system rewards.

redoubt
05-27-2010, 08:20 AM
Almost noone I ever run with (and that's a LOT of PUG groups) has enough AC to suffer grazing hits in anything past Elite Gianthold.

You need an AC in the mid to high 60s to see them in Elite Vale quests (otherwise mobs hit you on a 15+ and so don't graze). Few players bother with such an AC any more; fewer still take such an AC into Amrath or Epics.

That said, one player (and only one) has reported suffering a grazing hit from Epic Lailat. Their AC at the time? 104.

I've not played my monk (due to lack of GS handwraps mostly) but he could self buff into the mid-60s at level 18.

My main character can self buff to 71 AC. In a raid, the character has hit 81 for short times. I've played this character in every zone.

So, while I understand that grazing hits don't bother you, and that in your experience "almost noone" has that kind of AC, my experience is different. I know a lot of high-AC types. (Who knows, maybe we gravitate toward each other.) Grazing hits does affect my playstyle.

Also, if "almost noone" has enough AC for grazing to matter, then just remove it. "Almost noone" will benifit from it as almost everyone is getting hit anyway. Maybe it will remove some calculations in improve server performance! :D

Sure it allowed my 8str cleric to hit stuff clear up to level 10, but in all seriousness, he should not be able to hit anything in that level of a quest. So I think its broken on both sides.

I did not like it when it was implemented and I do not like it now.

redoubt
05-27-2010, 08:27 AM
Fixed.

If you think grazing hits are really about people missing the already AC nerfed monsters on high numbers I got some beachfront property to sell you in Siberia.

The only reason grazing hits exist is to punish players for playing in the way that their system rewards.

Very accurate statement.

Don't forget it was added about the same time as Dungeon Alert. DA doesn't mean squat if you don't get hit. The Devs know this of course and they wanted to make sure high AC characters got hit so they could slow them down with all the rediculous debuffs.

The DA/grazing hit implementation is one of the most un-fun things they have done to the game in my opinion. (Not saying its not effective. I've totally changed how I play because of it. I just hate it.)

grodon9999
05-27-2010, 08:38 AM
Grazing hits are just ******** and should be removed from the game. As a guy who recently started playing a cleric, ANYTHING that would encourage players to care about AC again would be a GOOD thing. Removing grazes makes it more feasible.

Seriously folks, dumping AC is fine an a 700 HP Barbarian as you can survive the cool-down on any healing spell. But people with sub-400 HP rogues really shouldn't do it unless they like spending part 4 of the shroud in a penalty box.

noinfo
05-27-2010, 08:46 AM
I've not played my monk (due to lack of GS handwraps mostly) but he could self buff into the mid-60s at level 18.

My main character can self buff to 71 AC. In a raid, the character has hit 81 for short times. I've played this character in every zone.

So, while I understand that grazing hits don't bother you, and that in your experience "almost noone" has that kind of AC, my experience is different. I know a lot of high-AC types. (Who knows, maybe we gravitate toward each other.) Grazing hits does affect my playstyle.

Also, if "almost noone" has enough AC for grazing to matter, then just remove it. "Almost noone" will benifit from it as almost everyone is getting hit anyway. Maybe it will remove some calculations in improve server performance! :D

Sure it allowed my 8str cleric to hit stuff clear up to level 10, but in all seriousness, he should not be able to hit anything in that level of a quest. So I think its broken on both sides.

I did not like it when it was implemented and I do not like it now.

I agree, though if they wanted to keep it to hit mobs I have no problem with that (though really?).

noinfo
05-27-2010, 08:49 AM
Very accurate statement.

Don't forget it was added about the same time as Dungeon Alert. DA doesn't mean squat if you don't get hit. The Devs know this of course and they wanted to make sure high AC characters got hit so they could slow them down with all the rediculous debuffs.

The DA/grazing hit implementation is one of the most un-fun things they have done to the game in my opinion. (Not saying its not effective. I've totally changed how I play because of it. I just hate it.)

Now the Devs have said that they revied DA and are keeping it, unpopular but at least they reviewed it, I hope they review it for grazing as well.

noinfo
05-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Now the Devs have said that they revied DA and are keeping it, unpopular but at least they reviewed it, I hope they review it for grazing as well.

And since they are reworking major combat changes in U5 anyway now would be a very good time for this...