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QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 04:06 PM
I do not want to play a multiclass Paladin. I come from Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft among other MMOs. And it seems WoW and Final Fantasy 13 actually got the class right. Why would you not give Paladin the Intimidate ability when it is a tank? Final Fantasy XI you fall short of tanking because you need to sub Warrior to get access to the single target ability Provoke. Therefore you cannot sub another useful subjob like Ninja/Monk without a few major tweaks and pieces of equipment you need.

Final Fantasy 13 was the first game that I have seen any other game I've played have Paladin right. They can provoke, they can guard minimizing damage; although in 13 you really can't deal much damage as Sentinel. Though there is ways to do so, I believe there is a Counter ability of some sort that builds up damage over time once you stop guarding.

Regardless of all the information above. I hereby sign this petition myself and want to see Paladin regain its role in the party. We are insufficient tanks without Intimidate in a game that has both instance where you fight one big bad ass mob in which DPS would be sufficient enough and where there is crowd control on multiple baddies and you need Intimidate. I think a Paladin should just have access to Intimidate form the beginning. Maybe it's just me... maybe this has been suggested before. :\

Choosing Feats to enhance the DPS hate role and Intimidate takes away from the features which I would rather use but then I would never get to experience any endgame raids/group events because the developers have shafted Paladins by making them Pure DPS. Paladins should play a support role, healing ability to help out party members, should still be able to dps, should be able to wear the heaviest armor and smite their foes with weapons/magic.

Paladin should be powerful, in the DPS sense with DDO it is but it lacks everything else. I'm severely disappointed and regret that I spent 15.00 for ViP to try the game out with everything available from the getgo. Paladin is my staple job and it's quite sad that only WoW/FF 13 not even a MMO happen to get the job right. Sorry if I am whining but any traditional Paladin out there I am sure feels the same way as I do.

Stormwine
05-25-2010, 04:08 PM
/signed

Angelus_dead
05-25-2010, 04:09 PM
I have an alternate suggestion (repeated from back when DDO was in beta):

Give Diplomacy two icons to either pull or shed aggro.
Optionally it could require training an AP enhancement from the Paladin/Monk/Bard classes to gain the aggro-pull variant.
Optionally chaotic creatures get a bonus to resist aggro-pulling Diplomacy. while lawful gets a penalty.

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:10 PM
Class Skills
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal
(Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int),
Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense
Motive (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

cant see intimidate on that list, so /not signed

Angelus_dead
05-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Important note: If Paladins are given either Intimidate skill or an equivalent aggro-puller feature, characters with Paladin+Fighter or Paladin+Rogue levels should be granted a free token to respec a few levels.

Alexandryte
05-25-2010, 04:12 PM
For class skills they tend to err on the side of 3.5 DnD rules....so if intim wasn't a paladin skill....dont expect to see it.

However, paladins make great hate tanks. They gain all the same bonuses an equivalent fighter would garner PLUS they get Divine Righteousness (+100% hate for one Turn attempt).

Different doesn't have to mean bad or worse off. Sometimes different is quite useful....it just requires a change in tactics ^_^

Angelus_dead
05-25-2010, 04:12 PM
cant see intimidate on that list, so /not signed
For your information, the D&D Intimidate skill is not used to attract monsters to you and away from your allies.

Sleepingcap
05-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Important note: If Paladins are given either Intimidate skill or an equivalent aggro-puller feature, characters with Paladin+Fighter or Paladin+Rogue levels should be granted a free token to respec a few levels.
And/or give fighters a single-target Intimidate skill (with a short duration, but long cooldown) to work with.

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:14 PM
For your information, the D&D Intimidate skill is not used to attract monsters to you and away from your allies.

its still not on that list

Lorz
05-25-2010, 04:21 PM
Sorry thats not in the cards for the pally.

/not signed

Angelus_dead
05-25-2010, 04:23 PM
its still not on that list
And that's a bad reason to allow or disallow an ability. D&D Paladins don't get Aura of Good either.

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:25 PM
And that's a bad reason to allow or disallow an ability. D&D Paladins don't get Aura of Good either.

in my books they do

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day

Chai
05-25-2010, 04:26 PM
Class Skills
The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal
(Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int),
Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense
Motive (Wis). See Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.

cant see intimidate on that list, so /not signed

If DDO was a literal translation of DnD, I might agree with the rules lawyer interpretation, but alas, it is not.

PnP DnD - Khopesh 1-8 x2 19-20 - If we can break this rule, we can give paladins intimidate for tanking. The game mechanic for intimidate isnt even the same as it is in PnP anyhow...

I'll /sign the petition.

QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 04:26 PM
Well before everyone flames me, and thanks for pointing out that even in the books Intimidate is not a skill; what is the role of Paladin then? Why was it created if a Cleric can use armor/shield/hammer as well as a Thief or Fighter can? It is just something I don't understand. Basically in theory a Paladin is a class in which has Fighter abilities + Cleric abilities which in theory should also inherit the Intimidate skill and perhaps a few skills from Cleric without multiclassing. It just seems that there's a never ending excuse or chain of additions that are an excuse for not giving some classes abilities in which it would make sense that they have. Multiclass being an excuse to take on Fighter and not be a Pure Paladin for Intimidate. I have seen also a few Paladin/Cleric builds which to say the least were also very interesting.

I have been following Dungeons and Dragons rules up to about 3rd edition. I've liked the system for the most part but when they started rolling out the advanced classes which were supposed to be 1 class with 2 classes abilities, it seems they really halfassed a lot of stuff.

No offense to anyone on here and don't mean to get flamed and maybe I am making a big deal out of nothing but when you think Paladin, you think Fighter+Cleric. I see the Cleric abilities in Paladin with the LoH, Auras, Divine stuff; but where is the Fighter stuff?

Regardless if I get flamed or not, thanks for the replies. And as I was not here during beta, that would be great if Diplomacy worked like that. In Final Fantasy XI they actually gave Ninjas two abilities that sounds just like Diplomacy:

Innin: Reduces enmity and impairs evasion. Grants a bonus to accuracy, critical hit rate, and ninjutsu damage when striking target from behind.

Yonin: Increases enmity and enhances "Ninja Tool Expertise" effect, but impairs accuracy. Improves evasion and reduced enemy's Critical Hit Rate when in front of target.

Well that's all I have to say, but please keep the replies civil don't want to this to turn into a debate.

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:27 PM
If DDO was a literal translation of DnD, I might agree with the rules lawyer interpretation, but alas, it is not.

PnP DnD - Khopesh 1-8 x2 19-20 - If we can break this rule, we can give paladins intimidate for tanking. The game mechanic for intimidate isnt even the same as it is in PnP anyhow...

I'll /sign the petition.

or you see it that way: peshs get an increased multiplier but loose the +2 to trip attempts

its a take and give

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:28 PM
but where is the Fighter stuff?

full BAB

Borror0
05-25-2010, 04:31 PM
Well before everyone flames me, and thanks for pointing out that even in the books Intimidate is not a skill; what is the role of Paladin then?
Most D&D editions, unlike most MMOs, cared very little for the role of a character in a party with the exception of healing. As a result, you have several classes that lack focus. Often, they exist because they are iconic and/or flavorful rather than because they meet a gameplay-related need in the game's design.

Roles were taken into consideration starting from fourth edition, but DDO is based on edition 3.5.

shadow_419
05-25-2010, 04:33 PM
How about this for a give and take : Paladins get intimidate as a class skill, but only works on evil creatures. It keeps with the flavor of the Paladin class but gives them the skills they should have.

Angelus_dead
05-25-2010, 04:35 PM
Most D&D editions, unlike most MMOs, cared very little for the role of a character in a party
More accurately, D&D 3.x was designed around characters having roles, but they neglected to include rules to actually make the characters better at the intended use. Their testing was conducted with both players and monsters behaving as if the characters made sense in the role, regardless of if they actually did.

PS. In earlier games like AD&D the rules were less well defined, so a Paladin player could simply say "I stay in front of the troll" and that's all it would take to prevent that monster from attacking anyone but you.

QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 04:36 PM
Most D&D editions, unlike most MMOs, cared very little for the role of a character in a party with the exception of healing. As a result, you have several classes that lack focus. Often, they exist because they are iconic and/or flavorful rather than because they meet a gameplay-related need in the game's design.

Truly sad and my biggest gripe really. I just think it is a sham that I can't be Pure. But perhaps that was their intent. Fighters were made to tank crowds, while Paladins were meant to tank single-target with DPS. IE: Fighter tanks on the crowd while Paladin picks a target off one by one. But doesn't Paladin have the better means to hold a crowd versus a Fighter? Perhaps but without going multiclass, as a Pure build I would never know.

Does Super Tanking exist in this game as well? Say I go into a room full of 5 monsters. They all generate hate on me, can the party members pick them off one by one and kill them?

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:37 PM
How about this for a give and take : Paladins get intimidate as a class skill, but only works on evil creatures. It keeps with the flavor of the Paladin class but gives them the skills they should have.

doubt that is as easy to code as it sounds

Blackbird
05-25-2010, 04:38 PM
/signed

Even though it is not a class skill for Paladins in 3.5 DnD, DDO Intimidate does NOT work anything like D&D Intimidate. This is how Intimidate works in D&D:

[start D&D quote]

You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target provides you with incorrect or useless information, or otherwise frustrates your efforts.

Demoralize Opponent

You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

[end D&D quote]

As you can see, there is nothing about drawing aggro to a character. Intimidate in PnP is similar to a fear effect (i.e. a target immune to fear is also immune to intimidate). IMO, paladins should get Intimidate as a class skill in DDO because it closely follows what a paladin is in D&D -- a holy warrior hellbent on fighting evil and defending the weak. What better way then to draw evil's wrath upon themselves instead of their companions.

IMO, it matters absolutely zero that it is not on the D&D class skills list because it is NOT THE SAME SKILL. Intimidate as in DDO does not exist in D&D 3.5.

Chai
05-25-2010, 04:45 PM
or you see it that way: peshs get an increased multiplier but loose the +2 to trip attempts

its a take and give

You call that a balanced trade off? LOL

Please.

No one would invest a feat in khopesh if it was 19-20 x2 with a +2 to trip. :D

I was just citing that as an example where Turbine is willing to take larger steps away from the core rules of the PnP game than what the OP suggested. Adding a crit multiplier to khopesh has a much higher impact to the game than giving paladins intimidate as a class skill. If the PnP book rules are the only reason you dont want this in the game, then I say put it in. It goes along with what a paladin does - protecting his or her friends.

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:46 PM
You call that a balanced trade off? LOL

quote me where i said its balanced and you have a point

Chai
05-25-2010, 04:46 PM
/signed

Even though it is not a class skill for Paladins in 3.5 DnD, DDO Intimidate does NOT work anything like D&D Intimidate. This is how Intimidate works in D&D:

[start D&D quote]

You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target provides you with incorrect or useless information, or otherwise frustrates your efforts.

Demoralize Opponent

You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

[end D&D quote]

As you can see, there is nothing about drawing aggro to a character. Intimidate in PnP is similar to a fear effect (i.e. a target immune to fear is also immune to intimidate). IMO, paladins should get Intimidate as a class skill in DDO because it closely follows what a paladin is in D&D -- a holy warrior hellbent on fighting evil and defending the weak. What better way then to draw evil's wrath upon themselves instead of their companions.

IMO, it matters absolutely zero that it is not on the D&D class skills list because it is NOT THE SAME SKILL. Intimidate as in DDO does not exist in D&D 3.5.

/Agree

Bluff, and diplomacy also work in a similar fashion in PnP. In DDO they are combat tools. :p

shadow_419
05-25-2010, 04:47 PM
How about this for a give and take : Paladins get intimidate as a class skill, but only works on evil creatures. It keeps with the flavor of the Paladin class but gives them the skills they should have.


doubt that is as easy to code as it sounds

I'm not saying it's a quick fix because I know jack about coding. There are alignment tags for mobs in game already for weapon effects to proc, I figure an adjustment to the intim code to check alignments is all that's needed.

Borror0
05-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Say I go into a room full of 5 monsters. They all generate hate on me, can the party members pick them off one by one and kill them?
Yes, Intimidate allows that. However, as you've been told in another thread, tanking is rarely used in DDO. The monsters' DPS is often low (and healing overpowered enough) enough that DPS characters can manage the incoming damage for as long as there is a dedicated healer in the group.

Which is why most melee characters are either THF or TWF.

Chai
05-25-2010, 04:52 PM
quote me where i said its balanced and you have a point

Literally using the word and implying has the same effect. You clearly said its a trade off because it adds +1 crit multi but it takes away the +2 trip, and you know as well as I that this doesnt hold water.

Youre just bantering semantics at this point.

Its already been shown that the PnP definition of intimidate, like most cha skills, arent used the same as they are in DDO.

Gercho
05-25-2010, 04:56 PM
yes, i dont see any reason why paladins shouldnt have intimidate as a class skill, so /signed

Visty
05-25-2010, 04:58 PM
Literally using the word and implying has the same effect. You clearly said its a trade off because it adds +1 crit multi but it takes away the +2 trip, and you know as well as I that this doesnt hold water.

Youre just bantering semantics at this point.

Its already been shown that the PnP definition of intimidate, like most cha skills, arent used the same as they are in DDO.

quote me where i said tradeoff and you might have a point

see, you are putting words into my mouth i never said and its not just semantics

Chai
05-25-2010, 05:03 PM
quote me where i said tradeoff and you might have a point

see, you are putting words into my mouth i never said and its not just semantics


or you see it that way: peshs get an increased multiplier but loose the +2 to trip attempts

its a take and give

Again bantering semantics. It is the Visty way... Your rules lawyer arguement leaks like a siv. Give it a rest.

Now go ahead and pull the literal interpretation card and say you didnt imply this....Because you didnt literally say it in the same exact words. Instead of trade off you used take and give.

/barfs all over your semantics.

QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 05:05 PM
Yes, Intimidate allows that. However, as you've been told in another thread, tanking is rarely used in DDO. The monsters' DPS is often low (and healing overpowered enough) enough that DPS characters can manage the incoming damage for as long as there is a dedicated healer in the group.

Which is why most melee characters are either THF or TWF.

Well that's great if you want to be a Greatsword user or act like you are a Fighter and wield two weapons for massive damage. But Paladins are staple for Sword and Shield. Yes DDO doesn't really support the role, I have learned all of this. What I meant by the previous state is.

Without even counting Intimidate, you go into a room as Paladin. The 5 monsters see the Paladin, they all aggro that Paladin. Not counting Intimidate or even having it; would the 4 monster still continue to have hate on the Paladin as long as the other party members do not do AoEs or touch the other 4 monsters and only the one that the Paladin chooses to melee?

It is an interesting programming bug in FFXI that has never been fixed and I wonder if it also exists in this game? Because you are not on a monster's hate list in FFXI unless you do an action on that monster, rest nearby the monster or heal a member of a party who has touched a monster. Just something I was curious about. Cause if the bug is apparent in this game, then I can plan around it and still use a Pure Paladin tank build, sword and shield. This basically makes it so that in FFXI the healer can spam cures on the Paladin with no repercussions of aggro from the 4 monsters in which the Paladin did not touch but are just linked to him by aggression hate.

Monster 1 -> Paladin Meleeing, So He is On Hate List
Monster 2-4 -> Hitting Paladin because of initial aggro, not on hate list.
5 other part members -> Smashing the same target the Paladin chooses as to not get hit/aggro from the other 4 monsters.

Think you get the point just added the last bit just in case. So can you Supertank?

Visty
05-25-2010, 05:08 PM
Again bantering semantics. It is the Visty way... Your rules lawyer arguement leaks like a siv. Give it a rest.

Now go ahead and pull the literal interpretation card and say you didnt imply this....Because you didnt literally say it in the same exact words. Instead of trade off you used take and give.

/barfs all over your semantics.

tradeoff =/= give and take

i take your milk chocolate and give you white chocolate for it = tradeoff
i take your porsche and give you whtie chocolate for it = give and take

no matter how you twist it, you are wrong and paladins shouldnt get intimidate as classskill

Aschbart
05-25-2010, 05:10 PM
1. WOW Paladin is not D&D paladin. I don't know FF paladins, but I strongly suspect the same is true for them.

2. All skills in DDO are only a class skill for those classes that also have them as a class skill in the PnP version of D&D. So making intimidate a class skill for a class that originally didn't have it would just introduce a precedent! Just because DDO broke rules in other places is about as bad an argument as I can think off for breaking yet another rule!

3. DDO intimidate works completely different than D&D intimidate, you might even argue it works the opposite way! (in D&D you could use intimidate to *stop* someone from attacking you, or get him to surrender) So it is questionable whether this skill should even be used for the purpose of tanking. Manipulating some opponent into attacking you would be more accurately implemented via the bluff skill, which I believe also the Kender Taunt ability works with (Dragonlance Campaign Setting). Bluff of course is not a fighter class skill either...

There actually *is* an ability in D&D 3.5 that exactly works like intimidate in DDO, the feat 'Goad' from Complete Adventurer. You can look up the description in this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3). Goad works based on character level and Charisma (minimum 13). No skill involved. This feat would be a perfect addition to DDO to help out paladin tanking.

Chai
05-25-2010, 05:11 PM
tradeoff =/= give and take

i take your milk chocolate and give you white chocolate for it = tradeoff
i take your porsche and give you whtie chocolate for it = give and take

no matter how you twist it, you are wrong and paladins shouldnt get intimidate as classskill

Again, bantering semantics.

/barfs on rules lawyerisms.

And now youre trying to rules lawyer your way out of being a rules lawyer.

TheKaige
05-25-2010, 05:12 PM
/signed.

Visty
05-25-2010, 05:13 PM
Again, bantering semantics.

/barfs on rules lawyerisms.

And now youre trying to rules lawyer your way out of being a rules lawyer.

well lets say it that way:
i gave a reason why it shouldnt be that way

you didnt that it should

point for me

testing1234
05-25-2010, 05:17 PM
I do not want to play a multiclass Paladin.

your asking for a class balance change because you dont "want" to play a multiclass paladin?

as i see it you can make a perfectly fine paladin with intimidate by splashing for example 2rogue or 2 fighter, and find paladins balanced currently with other melee characters.
if it aint broken why fix

Gercho
05-25-2010, 05:19 PM
I think using the excuse that intimidate is not a paladin skill in PnP makes no sense, turbine invented a new skill called it intimidate, and used PnP intimidate rules! if anything, i think paladins should get default evil aggro unless someone steals it with intimidate... at least for monsters in the paladin aura range...
So, new petition, rename the skill intimidate to something not used in PnP and give the skill to paladins! and change the intimidate skill to something that has no use in ddo, that should leave the purists happy!

eonfreon
05-25-2010, 05:20 PM
/signed to either give Intimidate to Paladins or allow Diplomacy as an alternative as per A_D's suggestion.

And while I'll still sign it if there is no free respec tokens for those Paladins who took splash of Rogue or Fighter to get that skill it would be nice.

Actually it would be really nice if they just gave Paladins a respec token because how many non-splashed Paladins bother with Diplomacy anyway?

So /signed.

And don't worry about Visty's rules lawyering.
His entitled to his point-of-view.
He's presented it, no need to waste time letting him derail the thread.
Pretend he won something with his "point" and let him go on his merry way.

Chai
05-25-2010, 05:21 PM
well lets say it that way:
i gave a reason why it shouldnt be that way

you didnt that it should

point for me

Actually I did. Twice. Read.

And being a rules lawyer isnt a reason. I dont care if you can quote from page 34 chapter 3 section 12 paragraph 9 from the book where it says youre supposedly right.

Visty
05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
Actually I did. Twice. Read.

quote it
and that kopesh stuff doesnt count as its a take and give situation and not just a give one

and for your lawyers ****: im no lawyer and it would surprise me if i would have major knowladge about rules. but i have common sense...somethign rare on these forums

eonfreon
05-25-2010, 05:25 PM
LOL.
Thanks for the neg rep Visty.
I'll wear it with pride.

parvo
05-25-2010, 05:31 PM
No. Paladin's have plenty of advantages already. Regardless, with some effort, paladin's can get enough intimidate skill for it to work fine.

Chai
05-25-2010, 05:34 PM
quote it
and that kopesh stuff doesnt count as its a take and give situation and not just a give one

and for your lawyers ****: im no lawyer and it would surprise me if i would have major knowladge about rules. but i have common sense...somethign rare on these forums

Ok Ok I get it already. Meaningless semantics have been bantered, pointlessly. Youre arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Youre quoting right from the PnP book as your reason, and saying thats absolute, which is rules lawyering. Even though you know as clearly as I do that this game has deviated so far from PnP that it is its own entity. The PnP rules dont apply because they are not the same mechanics. The cha skills do not get used the same way nor do they have the same impact on the game in PnP as they do in DDO - so quoting from those rules is negated.

Petition, /signed.

This will allow paladins to play their intended role.

Visty
05-25-2010, 05:39 PM
Ok Ok I get it already. Meaningless semantics have been bantered, pointlessly. Youre arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Youre quoting right from the PnP book as your reason, and saying thats absolute, which is rules lawyering. Even though you know as clearly as I do that this game has deviated so far from PnP that it is its own entity. The PnP rules dont apply because they are not the same mechanics. The cha skills do not get used the same way nor do they have the same impact on the game in PnP as they do in DDO - so quoting from those rules is negated.

Petition, /signed.

This will allow paladins to play their intended role.

oh, getting defensive again?
look, ddo is based on dnd which uses those books
the class skills of any class are like they are in the books
theres ABSOLUTELY no reason to change that
if you want to give them intimidate you have to remove smite evil from them

unless that happens /not signed

QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 05:41 PM
No. Paladin's have plenty of advantages already. Regardless, with some effort, paladin's can get enough intimidate skill for it to work fine.

I have actually researched into this the last few days as well to just see if I could put all points into Intimidate and be fine, but I think the highest someone has reached was 40-50 Intimidate which is clearly not enough to do Epic Raids which of course I am interested in. I mean sure maybe there's a slim chance you would get lucky on rolls when you Intimidate as Paladin Pure but from what I hear, if you miss an Int; someone is guaranteed to die on the spot.

I am not saying that Paladins should get Intimidate because I am unwilling to splash. I would rather the game treat Paladin as the role it is supposed to fulfill. However, DDO is different to other MMOs when it comes to Shield as well. You can actually control your shield, as well as face the direction of your attacker like a FPS to some sorts. In other MMOs Shield Blocking is automatic and requires no effort on your part, it just happens a percentage of time while your auto attack handles the melee.

I do love the game. Will probably roll a sword and shield Paladin Pure and just get to 20 and if I can't get into any endgame raids so be it. I will have to deal with that. It is a breath of fresh air that DDO is so different though to other MMOs. It is what got me to play the game, that and the helpful people in the game and the boards I have met along the way.

Vynnt
05-25-2010, 05:47 PM
Well that's great if you want to be a Greatsword user or act like you are a Fighter and wield two weapons for massive damage. But Paladins are staple for Sword and Shield. Yes DDO doesn't really support the role, I have learned all of this. What I meant by the previous state is.

Without even counting Intimidate, you go into a room as Paladin. The 5 monsters see the Paladin, they all aggro that Paladin. Not counting Intimidate or even having it; would the 4 monster still continue to have hate on the Paladin as long as the other party members do not do AoEs or touch the other 4 monsters and only the one that the Paladin chooses to melee?

It is an interesting programming bug in FFXI that has never been fixed and I wonder if it also exists in this game? Because you are not on a monster's hate list in FFXI unless you do an action on that monster, rest nearby the monster or heal a member of a party who has touched a monster. Just something I was curious about. Cause if the bug is apparent in this game, then I can plan around it and still use a Pure Paladin tank build, sword and shield. This basically makes it so that in FFXI the healer can spam cures on the Paladin with no repercussions of aggro from the 4 monsters in which the Paladin did not touch but are just linked to him by aggression hate.

Monster 1 -> Paladin Meleeing, So He is On Hate List
Monster 2-4 -> Hitting Paladin because of initial aggro, not on hate list.
5 other part members -> Smashing the same target the Paladin chooses as to not get hit/aggro from the other 4 monsters.

Think you get the point just added the last bit just in case. So can you Supertank?

so.. back on topic..

yes. if you run into the room and get all the hate, and no one does anything, for most mobs, you will still have it. of course, you can hit the 5 mobs a few times to tkeep the hate, while group members peel off the mobs.

back in the day i also played ffxi, and its much different here. back in ffxi, the battles were much slower (with all the combos and pulling one mob at a time), and each group had to be well balanced. in ddo, dps could take the place of tanks.

Chai
05-25-2010, 05:48 PM
No. Paladin's have plenty of advantages already. Regardless, with some effort, paladin's can get enough intimidate skill for it to work fine.

Intimidate has to be huge in the end game to lock boss mobs down. Paladins cant get there without multiclassing, which nullifies their capstone. Fighter on the other hand can get there and still be pure.

Aschbart
05-25-2010, 05:54 PM
I think using the excuse that intimidate is not a paladin skill in PnP makes no sense, turbine invented a new skill called it intimidate, and used PnP intimidate rules! if anything, i think paladins should get default evil aggro unless someone steals it with intimidate... at least for monsters in the paladin aura range...
So, new petition, rename the skill intimidate to something not used in PnP and give the skill to paladins! and change the intimidate skill to something that has no use in ddo, that should leave the purists happy!

As I posted earlier, PnP intimidate rules do not include anything like pulling aggro. PnP bluff rules on the other hand do. So maybe what Turbine did was that they split the skill bluff into two seperate skills, renamed the one into Intimidate (similarities to existing skills purely coincidential) and gave it to fighters.

If you view it like that, then you have a point that there is indeed no reason not to give it to paladins as well. It would be better to rename it first however, just to avoid any confusion with the original PnP skill by that name...

That said, the already existing PnP 3.5 feat Goad I mentioned above would be a much better fit. Something I realized later is that the same excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3) I quoted above also contains the bard's Ironskin Chant. So Turbine already implemented stuff from this very book!

P.S.: there is one other thing I recalled from PnP - paladins do emit an aura of good, and while it does nothing like what it does in DDO, it can be felt by certain beings, such as most undead and evil outsiders. This by itself is sufficient (in PnP at least) to attack that paladin. It's too bad Turbine didn't implement that as well, it would at least against some monster types help the tanking bit (unless you're trying to hold aggro against a DPS pally build that is ;))

Visty
05-25-2010, 05:56 PM
If you view it like that, then you have a point that there is indeed no reason not to give it to paladins as well. It would be better to rename it first however, just to avoid any confusion with the original PnP skill by that name...

well, if you view it that way that its just part of bluff, then fighters shouldnt have it either

Shiler
05-25-2010, 06:02 PM
/ not signed.

Why?
Because we dont need intimidiate as a class skill to be mian tanks.
+ i dont want Turbine to start changing class skills, because someone from community wants that.

Quikster
05-25-2010, 06:03 PM
/not signed.

Palys already make the best "hate tanks" no reason to make them the best intimitanks as well.

BlackSteel
05-25-2010, 06:13 PM
/not signed

pallies have other methods to get aggro at their disposal. theres other methods available to tank with than your typical taunt the monster approach from other games.

Rinnoan
05-25-2010, 06:19 PM
While the bantering between Visty and Chai has been amusing, I do find a discrepancy in Visty's argument.

The skill lists in PnP are for the skill descriptions in PnP. You change the skill and the skill lists become invalid. DDO has changed the Intimidate skill considerably so it does not resemble the skill in PnP.

PnP Intimidate can be used to frighten an opponent (gives them 'Shaken' Status, but doesn't make them attack just you), get additional information from an NPC, or to frighten an opponent away so you don't have to fight him.

DDO Intimidate only gets your opponents to attack you, instead of others.

As these are not even remotely the same effect, how can the PnP Skill list have relevance in this argument?

As for giving Paladins the DDO version of Intimidate, why not? All the other heavy fighter types have access to it as a class skill, why shouldn't Paladins? I don't think they really need it, but it makes logical sense.

/signed!

Lagin
05-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Paladins with intim? read the 3.5 (this game btw) description about Pallys!

NNOOOOOOOO! They shouldnt have or didnt till 4.0 rules have a initiative roll!, (from WOTC website)....


The paladin is one of the standard playable character classes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) in most editions of the Dungeons & Dragons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons) fantasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy) role-playing game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29#cite_note-0) The paladin is a holy knight, crusading in the name of good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodness) and order, and is a divine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_magic_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) spellcaster. From 1st through 3rd edition, paladins were required to maintain the Lawful Good alignment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29).
In addition, compared to other classes the paladin class has one of the most restrictive codes of conduct in their single-mindedness and utter devotion to good. Paladin characters are expected to demonstrate and embody goodness. It is taboo for a paladin to lie or use poison, and some interpretations say they should only use stealth as a last resort. Other restrictions are sometimes laid on the paladin depending on campaign setting, ranging from restricting the class to the point of making it comically unplayable to a class that only differs from other warrior classes in its additional divine powers. Failure to maintain a lawful good alignment or adhere to the code of conduct causes paladins to lose their paladin status and many of their special abilities until they are able to atone.
With the introduction of the 4th edition of D&D, paladins become champions of a chosen deity instead of just righteous warriors. There are other important changes, for example, paladins can be of any alignment, and can no longer fall in disgrace and lose their paladinhood.

Khelden
05-25-2010, 06:57 PM
TOTALLY Signed!

Not happy with the meaning of Intimidate? Make it Challenge then!


Paladins are supremely resilient and have a good balance of offense and defense. They protect and support allies better than the other melee classes, provide some healing, and wield the power of good as a mighty weapon.

Protect better than the other melee class? Yeahhhhhhhh, right... Situational ftw.

Chai
05-25-2010, 06:57 PM
With the introduction of the 4th edition of D&D, paladins become champions of a chosen deity instead of just righteous warriors. There are other important changes, for example, paladins can be of any alignment, and can no longer fall in disgrace and lose their paladinhood.


This, was one of the few things I actually agreed with in 4e.

It doesnt justify the entire edition eliminating most of the utility spells, and many of the utility abilities, in an attempt to market it to the WOW crowd with abilities based on timers though.

As far as which editions ruleset we look at to justify giving or not giving DDO paladins intimidate....This is irrelevant. DDO already deviates so far away from any of those rulesets that it is its own entity now. Give it to them or not based on what their intention is with the class in DDO only, because that is where the impact of doing so will occur.

DrNuegebauer
05-25-2010, 08:46 PM
So what's the difference in staying pure vs multiclassing when it comes to the numbers?

Multi-class can get to 23 intim.
Pure can get to 11.

Certainly a multi-class Pally has the advantage there - but why shouldn't they have to multi to get that skill higher?

Compare a pure Pally to a fighter AC tank, and it's a different story. Yes, there's a difference of 12 on the RANKS side of thing, but surely the Paladin makes up a lot of that on the CHR side of things? surely he's at least 6+ points better off in the CHR department, AND gets the 3 class ranks of CHR. AND THEN gets the capstone to be better able to deal some DPS while being the tank... Difference would be more like 6-7 ranks in that case.

I realise that's a lot when it comes to boss tanking, but just get the hate tank thing going then?

Aschbart
05-26-2010, 02:29 AM
You're forgetting that fighters additionally get enhancements to further boost their Intimidate. Plus they can more easily afford the extra feat for skill focus, and after picking up tons of defensive feats still have enough for offensive combat style as well.

Paladin tanks however are starved on feats - yes they can pick up SF, Toughness, the various shield feats and PrE prereqs, but this leaves them with nothing to build their DPS abilities beyond the basics. And no, even a 100% Hate bonus hardly enables them to peel off mobs from raging barbarians, monster builds, or AAs. How are they supposed to achieve 200+ DPS with sword and board, no feats to boost DPS, and little to none APs left? Yes smites are awesome, but only if you spend 20-30 APs to improve them. And decent tanks don't have that many to spare!

TBH, much of the above is extrapolation from my bad, bad experience with my own supposed pally tank that I rerolled before reaching level 10. But I did that (the rerolling) only after having some extensive talks with more experienced players, and the above is the gist of what I've learned from that.

So at the moment you can choose to be a mediocre tank and mediocre DPS who is barely able to hate-tank, but hardly able to take the beating, or you can go full tank and hope the DPS will restrict themselves to throwing fluffy bunnies.

I say paladins need some help with tanking. The only alternative is to nerf DPS, and that's not gonna happen. Whether it's intimidate, or another feat, like goad, I don't care. Just give the pally the ability to hold aggro against broken khopesh double PA-enhanced WF mincers.

Then again, the pally capstone doesn't offer all that much for tanking, that giving it up in favor of better intimidate and bonus feat wouldn't be worth it. Asking for pure pallys to achieve the same ability to tank as a Pally/fighter multiclass could is like asking for pure DPS fighters to be able to achieve the same DPS as monster builds.

*sigh* It's a controversial topic - I can hardly blame Turbine for not being able to make up their minds if I cannot achieve that myself...

Blackbird
05-26-2010, 08:04 AM
So what's the difference in staying pure vs multiclassing when it comes to the numbers?

Multi-class can get to 23 intim.
Pure can get to 11.

Certainly a multi-class Pally has the advantage there - but why shouldn't they have to multi to get that skill higher?

Compare a pure Pally to a fighter AC tank, and it's a different story. Yes, there's a difference of 12 on the RANKS side of thing, but surely the Paladin makes up a lot of that on the CHR side of things? surely he's at least 6+ points better off in the CHR department, AND gets the 3 class ranks of CHR. AND THEN gets the capstone to be better able to deal some DPS while being the tank... Difference would be more like 6-7 ranks in that case.

I realise that's a lot when it comes to boss tanking, but just get the hate tank thing going then?

I have a level 20 pure fighter stalwart defender. My husband has a multi-class paladin/fighter (18/2 at 20). Even with him multiclassing the paladin with 2 levels of fighter he can't top my fighter's intimidate or hate. Why?

1. Stalwart defender (fighter), gives a bonus to intimidate, defender of siberys (paladin) does not.
2. I can afford to take extra feats like Bullheaded (we both have Skill Focus: Intim I think).
3. My charisma on my fighter isn't that bad. Yes, he can take enhancements to improve his over mine and may have started with a higher charisma than me but we're not talking a huge difference. Both characters are dwarves.
4. Stalwart defender and defender of siberys both give hate bonuses
5. I have a full line of intimidate enhancements. I think he has some since he has some fighter levels but I don't know if he gets all of them. It wouldn't make sense that he could take them all by only splashing 2 levels but I don't have a single multi-class character out of 12 so not sure :)

This is all on top of the fact that I'm pretty sure I can get my AC way above his and I have a blocking DR of over 30 if I really want to turtle up.

Compare my pure drow paladin and there's even a greater disparity.

As for the capstones, fighters also get a boost to attack speed with their capstone and get an enhancement to increase attack speed that paladins do not get so a fighter should be able to land more attacks than a pure paladin.

As for the multi-class issue, I don't think a character should ever have to multi-class to balance with another class, especially when doing what it is that class is for. A paladin is a holy warrior, a front line tank. In PnP the balance between fighter and paladin is feats vs. spells(well, these really aren't that relevant in PnP due to limited selection and low number of castings), self-healing, and smites. Paladins also must adhere to a code of conduct in PnP which is restrictive. In DDO, paladins can't even beat fighters in AC even though they get auras to boost it. That's not even mentioning monks and dex builds. I think someone responded to this thread by saying paladins already got so many perks. If that was the case, why do you see so few pure paladins?

Clay
05-26-2010, 08:10 AM
How about we just have every skill and feat regardless of class available to all... that way everything can be the same and all will be equal. That will definitely balance the game and make it more fun.

:rolleyes:

/not signed

Angrygreek
05-26-2010, 08:22 AM
My main is a paladin, and I pull aggro just fine. How many fighters are walking around with a 30+ Charisma? Between Cha bonuses, items, hate aggro, I am able to intimitank just fine. Wait a sec though, we paladins don't have intimidate as a class skill, right? Umm, fighters don't have smite evil or lay on hands as a class skill!! Sacrilege! Don't tell anyone, or they might get upset that they aren't EXACTLY like us.

Bottom line people, if you want to play a tank with intimidate as a class skill, play a fighter! It's pretty simple.

Seamonkeysix
05-26-2010, 08:30 AM
doubt that is as easy to code as it sounds

(Allowing paladin intimidate to work only on evil creatures)

Why would it be any more difficult to code than "holy"? Only works on evil.

If alignment=evil then the mob rolls a dc check.

If alignment=neutral "immune" pops up.

TheJusticar
05-26-2010, 08:42 AM
/not signed

Paladins, having CHA as one of their main stats + access to Deneith dragonmark (if human) + 2 rog Splash + Defender of Syberys PrE can reach insane Initimidate/Hate numbers. 60-70 is common place. D&D is a game of tradeoffs (everywhere you look) staying pure and getting that nice capstone or splashing two Rog (or Ftr) to maximize Initimi. You can even do it within the 3.5 Paladin leveling rules (i.e. 1Rog, 18Pal, 1Rog).

Else, we're gonna start seeing all sorts of petty requests for adding skills to classes.

To re-iterate vehemently /not signed

Scalion
05-26-2010, 08:49 AM
There actually *is* an ability in D&D 3.5 that exactly works like intimidate in DDO, the feat 'Goad' from Complete Adventurer. You can look up the description in this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3). Goad works based on character level and Charisma (minimum 13). No skill involved. This feat would be a perfect addition to DDO to help out paladin tanking.


There are some other really nice feats in that link that I would love to see in the game. Tactile Trapsmith would be game changing for many rogues.

Maybe that's the problem with adding stuff like this into the game... what would be fair to add and what would not?

Visty
05-26-2010, 11:39 AM
@seamonkey:
if ppl report ladder as stuckpoint then fix it

seems easy too but those ladders are around for 4 years

Halock
05-26-2010, 04:44 PM
the class skills of any class are like they are in the books
theres ABSOLUTELY no reason to change that


Yet they were changed, go read intimidate in a D&d book, and read it here in ddo, they arnt the same, hence, there's no reason they need to be given to the same classes.

Citing that this is the way it is in the books so this is the way it should be here is a load of bull, i can fill pages of things not in those books here in ddo, show me the enhancement system in the 3.5 books for example, if ddo was a direct translation of the 3.5 books you would have a point in your statements, as it isnt, you do not, changes have already been made from the 3.x books, and this is just another requested change that makes sense.

Visty
05-26-2010, 04:47 PM
show me the enhancement system in the 3.5 books for example,

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionpoints.htm

but i think they also appeared in the eberron books

Chai
05-26-2010, 05:00 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionpoints.htm

but i think they also appeared in the eberron books

This is the d20 offshoot system and not original 3.5, written by a completely different author and completely optional.

The comparison is not even apples to oranges. Its more like apples to pick up trucks.

Also - none of those mechanics work like they do in DDO - again solidifying my statement that the MMO is its own entity and should be treated as such for the purpose of class skills, as it has been for skill mechanics.

Chai
05-26-2010, 05:07 PM
Yet they were changed, go read intimidate in a D&d book, and read it here in ddo, they arnt the same, hence, there's no reason they need to be given to the same classes.

Citing that this is the way it is in the books so this is the way it should be here is a load of bull, i can fill pages of things not in those books here in ddo, show me the enhancement system in the 3.5 books for example, if ddo was a direct translation of the 3.5 books you would have a point in your statements, as it isnt, you do not, changes have already been made from the 3.x books, and this is just another requested change that makes sense.

Yes exactly. If bluff and improved feint worked in DDO like it does in 3.5, rogues would be the-most-powerful-class in DDO against 0% fort mobs all the time, and not have to play second fiddle relying on barbarians and fighters to pick up aggro first.

Where are these 70 str barbarians in 3.5 again?

How about those x3 khopesh? Or the 6 int 6 wis trash mob ogres that have 30 SR and huge will saves just because it was coded that way.

Or how about the mobs running around in loincloths that have 60 + AC - simply because during coding, that was the number that was typed in.

I think its safe to say DDO is its own entity, and needs to be treated as such regarding the ruleset.

Visty
05-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Also - none of those mechanics work like they do in DDO - again solidifying my statement that the MMO is its own entity and should be treated as such for the purpose of class skills, as it has been for skill mechanics.

or rather then going even more away from the books, fix the skills and make them how they are supposed to work

intimidate could easily just have a shaken debuff just like the barbarian enhancement already does

Halock
05-26-2010, 07:28 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionpoints.htm

but i think they also appeared in the eberron books

This thing you link here is a pale reflection of how its implemented in ddo, i duno what you think this is meant to prove, if anything it proves my point, that ddo is different from 3.x, and that changes have and MUST be made in the transfer from tabletop to a video game, never mind that these arnt even in the core rulebooks.

Give me a reason, OTHER than that 'this is how it is in the rulebooks' on why a skill to grab agro should not be granted to a tank class, because so far thats all you've got, and thats been shot down numerous times ( you've even supplied some ammo to do it )