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stazer
05-25-2010, 11:25 AM
The question:

Should an xp penalty be applied upon pc death?
(not nescesarilly the original debt, perhaps one with incremental growth...ie first death in instance -500, second 1000 third 2000...ect)
Rationale:

There currently is no game feedback system which properly indicates to players on a personal level that their build needs adjustment or out right sucks. Too many players are making it too far into the game with below sub par builds do to lack of game feedback. In other words, the game has no real personal penalty for death which could provoke thought pertaining to "personal build issues". This is a problem long term for the game model (business model as long term commitments wont occur) as players will reach a certain level and deem the game too hard or the player base "too mean" as they can not stay alive for more then a few minutes.

Problems:


unknown impact of player feedback regarding build problems.
The massive amount of poorly constructed players currently in game will cause problems for many well devised players.
how does this effect TR?

This may not be "the answer" to game feedback vs player feedback for build quality.

If you have a better idea please post it. Other wise just post the standard /signed /unsigned...yes or no...whatever you want.

Maitland
05-25-2010, 11:27 AM
I would love to see this happen.
But i dont think it will..

/signed ...*edited..like it was..on player basis only,not group

Bluntt Roller

Newtons_Apple
05-25-2010, 11:28 AM
The question:

Should an xp penalty be applied upon pc death?

Rationale:

There currently is no game feedback system which properly indicates to players on a personal level that their build needs adjustment or out right sucks. Too many players are making it too far into the game with below sub par builds do to lack of game feedback. In other words, the game has no real personal penalty for death which could provoke thought pertaining to "personal build issues". This is a problem long term for the game model (business model as long term commitments wont occur) as players will reach a certain level and deem the game too hard or the player base "too mean" as they can not stay alive for more then a few minutes.

Problems:


unknown impact of player feedback regarding build problems.
The massive amount of poorly constructed players currently in game will cause problems for many well devised players.
how does this effect TR?

This may not be "the answer" to game feedback vs player feedback for build quality.

If you have a better idea please post it. Other wise just post the standard /signed /unsigned...yes or no...whatever you want.

Your reasons have good intentions, but this suggestion basically relegates #2 TR's to the status of permadeath, or never-die.

It takes long enough as it is to grind out xp on a #2 TR without having to play so carefully as to never die.

It isn't fun to always die - a person will probably feel fairly useless if this is what is happening to them. They will either improve their play, or quit. Either way the problem will solve itself, until the next mega-influx of new players.

FoggyKnight
05-25-2010, 11:29 AM
/unsigned.

Any healer in the party, while feeling a bit of satisfaction that a noob/idiot is finally in their pocket and not wasting resources, will not want the negative stuff coming their way on a one-second-too-late heal or having to heal up a party that doesn't want xp to be taken away.

If I didn't have a healer, I'd like to see this put back however.

Tendare
05-25-2010, 11:30 AM
/signed

Individual death penalties not 10% group penalties for death. I hate losing 10% because some yoyo thinks hes uber and goes and dies running into a group of monsters before the rest of the group gets there.

stazer
05-25-2010, 11:31 AM
Your reasons have good intentions, but this suggestion basically relegates #2 TR's to the status of permadeath, or never-die.

It takes long enough as it is to grind out xp on a #2 TR without having to play so carefully as to never die.

thats what i worry about. Maybe upon TR 2 the xp penalty gets cut in half? I fully understand people make bad TR's and TRing is not an indication of ability/knowledge but it would at least make it easier for more tr'ed people who have abilty/knowledge and make a mistake (which happens).

Lithic
05-25-2010, 11:31 AM
Xp debt as it was first included was a terrible idea. You could literally lose more exp with one death than you would get from level appropriate quests. If we had the same death penalty today, at lvl 20 one death would cost you about 30k exp.

This was extreme punishment for death, and apparently feedback led turbine to believe that many players would either log out after a death and wait it out, or just quit outright.

If such a system were to be reintroduced, there should be an adjustment so that half the exp you earn goes towards working off debt, the other half advances you (similar to city of heroes). That is much less punishing, and lets people feel they are still advancing.

Not that I would wish such a system in place personally. If you really want expensive/painfull death, go play permadeath.

Newtons_Apple
05-25-2010, 11:32 AM
thats what i worry about. Maybe upon TR 2 the xp penalty gets cut in half? I fully understand people make bad TR's and TRing is not an indication of ability/knowledge but it would at least make it easier for more tr'ed people who have abilty/knowledge and make a mistake (which happens).

Edited my post after you responded.

Skirmish
05-25-2010, 11:34 AM
/signed.

I could care less about game feedback telling people their build sucks.

I just miss the fact that people used to try and avoid getting killed. Now, no one really cares and many a poorly playing zerger (as opposed to those that zerg with skill) has no reason not to get himself killed for the 20th time since he will still be just as close to leveling.

I never saw a reason to lose the death penalty. But, then again, I didn't get myself killed a lot.

Edit: reading Lithic's reply, I stand corrected. A 'new' version of the XP penalty would be welcome. As, indeed, it was rather vicious as you got to higher levels.

DoctorWhofan
05-25-2010, 11:35 AM
/signed.

The current "death penaty" isn't really seen, except by the small group of peeps who actually press x and read it beside for the kill count. It doesn't have to be as damaging as before. Or scale with level of character.


BUT: two problems. TRU rez peeps on their 3+ through and F2P with limited XP.

Probably will never come back, but it would be nice. Never thought I'd miss it.

stazer
05-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Xp debt as it was first included was a terrible idea. You could literally lose more exp with one death than you would get from level appropriate quests. If we had the same death penalty today, at lvl 20 one death would cost you about 30k exp.

This was extreme punishment for death, and apparently feedback led turbine to believe that many players would either log out after a death and wait it out, or just quit outright.

If such a system were to be reintroduced, there should be an adjustment so that half the exp you earn goes towards working off debt, the other half advances you (similar to city of heroes). That is much less punishing, and lets people feel they are still advancing.

Not that I would wish such a system in place personally. If you really want expensive/painfull death, go play permadeath.

I did not state the old system be reintroduced...just looking for feedback regarding a generic undefined xp penalty. Perhaps I should review the initial post and make the xp debt more specifically defined. Any advice?

I do not want a more expensive/painful death. That statement misses the entire point. My post is addressing how I want the player base to receive in feedback through a game system which provokes thoughts about build issues. This would also slow the charge of players without knowledge from lvls 1-20, as they will have to adapt or continue to stay at their current level.

Lith I edited my original post with a more specific statement about xp debt and posted A (not "the") example of one solution.

Lorz
05-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Death Penalty BRING IT BACK!!!!! :)

It does not pose a problem for Tr's or Tr2's.

It only poses a problem for those who die....and if you die a lot...you probably will not get to TR...which is fine....you dont deserve too...you deserve to spend your time learning to basics ...ie learn to walk before you run. Once youve mastered that then by all means TR...and continue your adventure in learning...as it is now...any noob can TR and then it lowers the whole game...lowest common denominator...

And folks remember you can always park a toon to get rid of that excessive debt.

My vote is for Death Penalty.....its been making better players since 2006...

Yazston_the_Invoker
05-25-2010, 11:50 AM
/unsigned

I prefer the current incarnation, personally, as it allows me to attempt quests that are more difficult, so as to learn how to play better, without fear of totally screwing my XP. Plus, sometimes deaths are not because of skill/builds. Sometimes it IS that bad healer, or that 1 rolled on a save, or something otherwise.

That being said, I would love a way to have the death "bonus" negated ONLY for the offending party, if it is in a non-party situation. IE: If deaths happen when the party is sticking together and trying to play as a team, then the "party" looses the bonus, as it is currently. HOWEVER, if someone runs off on their own and dies (is x distance away from the nearest party member), or if someone dies from a non-trap environmental effect, such as falling or jumping into lava, perhaps only the person dying stupidly on their own would lose the bonus, therefore protecting the rest of the group somewhat.

Methinks perhaps that idea would lessen the fear TRs have of newbs... :p

Bogenbroom
05-25-2010, 11:59 AM
I agree that death should mean more in game, but since the the death penalty was removed a lot of the game was built around the idea that death is a minor inconvenience. I hated the switch at the time, but I thing going back to anything that extreme is impossible.

I would be inclined to consider XP % penalties to each character for each death. I do really like the the XP bonus to the group for no deaths. Good for promoting teamwork, but I think it doesn't go far enough. So maybe something along the lines of each death subtracts 2% of the party's XP and 10% of the characters XP for the current quest. But no negative XP type system like we used to have.

Yazston_the_Invoker
05-25-2010, 12:00 PM
If such a system were to be reintroduced, there should be an adjustment so that half the exp you earn goes towards working off debt, the other half advances you (similar to city of heroes). That is much less punishing, and lets people feel they are still advancing.

Not that I would wish such a system in place personally. If you really want expensive/painfull death, go play permadeath.

I will totally agree with you about that XP penalty method...I played CoH for quite a while, and though the game itself was tedious and boring, IMO, the death penalty system was not bad...it allowed you to continue to progress, albeit at a slower rate if you kept dying.

That being said, an XP penalty is fine in a game where XP is technically infinite, as you have the opportunity to go out and kill mobs all day without any limits. With DDO, there IS a finite amount of XP, and while, for normal players, you should have more than enough, for TRs, it creates more of an issue. This was my biggest problem with the debt system back in the day, as you had the possibility of backing yourself into a corner with debt (when the cap was still 10), that was amazingly difficult to get out of. The whole system of reducing XP for re-entering quests, and then reducing XP for re-running quests, and on top of that, XP debt, creates a very negative downward slope, IMO.

Now, if they were to change slayers so that you get a minor amount of XP per mob/per character level, like PnP, and allow you to rerun them infinitely, instead of capping slayers (and giving crazy amounts of XP for 1500+ kills), let us go for 5 xp per kill, or something like that, so that people with crazy xp debt have options on how to get out of the hole, if they ever dig themselves too deep. Maybe that would work?

Siskel
05-25-2010, 12:06 PM
I will totally agree with you about that XP penalty method...I played CoH for quite a while, and though the game itself was tedious and boring, IMO, the death penalty system was not bad...it allowed you to continue to progress, albeit at a slower rate if you kept dying.

That being said, an XP penalty is fine in a game where XP is technically infinite, as you have the opportunity to go out and kill mobs all day without any limits. With DDO, there IS a finite amount of XP, and while, for normal players, you should have more than enough, for TRs, it creates more of an issue. This was my biggest problem with the debt system back in the day, as you had the possibility of backing yourself into a corner with debt (when the cap was still 10), that was amazingly difficult to get out of. The whole system of reducing XP for re-entering quests, and then reducing XP for re-running quests, and on top of that, XP debt, creates a very negative downward slope, IMO.

Now, if they were to change slayers so that you get a minor amount of XP per mob/per character level, like PnP, and allow you to rerun them infinitely, instead of capping slayers (and giving crazy amounts of XP for 1500+ kills), let us go for 5 xp per kill, or something like that, so that people with crazy xp debt have options on how to get out of the hole, if they ever dig themselves too deep. Maybe that would work?


Technically exp is infinite in DDO not finite. You can continue to get experience by killing rares in explorer zones. It will be slow exp, but you will never run out as it is repeatable.

voodoogroves
05-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Maybe the XP penalty is a % and goes away over time (much like a late-entry penalty, but lasting for longer) or similar.

Ie, it gets rid of itself.


The trick is, you don't want to discourage people from playing. One option would be, while you're on the XP penalty from death you don't accumulate dungeon repetition penalties, etc. Maybe you get one or the other, not both. That way a TR isn't completely knee-capped. Death would suck, but not so bad.

This could carry across all XP penalties - they wouldn't stack, they'd overlap. One death on a TR would essentially be no penalty, etc.

Yazston_the_Invoker
05-25-2010, 12:15 PM
Technically exp is infinite in DDO not finite. You can continue to get experience by killing rares in explorer zones. It will be slow exp, but you will never run out as it is repeatable.

You know, I had not thought of that, though I would hate to base my levelling on creatures that only pop every so often, and which I need to get through tons of other worthless mobs just to fight. Could you imagine getting yourself to lv16-17 or so, then through an amazing combination of bad luck, bad groups, and perhaps some skill/build issues on top of that, being forced to basically run around Amrath and the Vale killing rares to try to make cap on a TR2? My god...it would almost be more merciful to start from scratch! :D

I don't know how to fix it, but I agree, the mentality is just wrong...too many people not caring at all about dying (I consider it a point of personal pride to stay alive and help the group), and too many others willing to drop the quest/group and restart as soon as one person dies, because that 10% bonus is just too good to lose.

cupajoe
05-25-2010, 12:20 PM
I have been playing since 07. I remember the XP penalty. I remember being happy when it was removed. Now, years later, I want it back. I also want players to need to complete the WW quest to get into the market. Anyone remember that? Oh and get off my lawn you young whipper snappers!!! Seriously though, I would welcome either the old system or a modified xp penalty system, but it would need enough teeth to seriously discourage dieing.

Mr_Ed7
05-25-2010, 12:20 PM
Dieing has little to do with build and more on how a player plays.

That being said, bringing back the XP penalty would make for better players.

norman_quickfinger
05-25-2010, 12:22 PM
I would like to see it come back.It would bring back the GROUP adventures and slow down the zergers. People wouldn't be inclined to solo things(i.e. raids). I know some people won't like the zerger and solo comment but D&D wasn't made to solo play and a DM wouldn't let you zerg ahead of the party.

Bobthesponge
05-25-2010, 12:41 PM
i rememeber being relieved when the XP penalty was removed as well and now i think we should get it back - in a slightly different format.

1) scale the XP penalty so that higher levels/TRs don't get an impossible hit
2) formalize a system to "work off" debt within quest
3) make the debt personal, not a group penalty
4) make all XP for my characters 3x the regular XP until i hit level cap, then limit it to 2x XP

of course, this would mean that the devs would need to fix the shroud else EVERYONE would get an XP hit in part 5. that could be catastrophic.

Krag
05-25-2010, 12:46 PM
I am fine with xp debt IF they boost base XP or add more high-level content.

Nevthial
05-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Bring it back in it's original, brutal, glory. Remember the screenshot contests to see who had the highest debt? lol

Kalari
05-25-2010, 01:03 PM
The question:

Should an xp penalty be applied upon pc death?
(not nescesarilly the original debt, perhaps one with incremental growth...ie first death in instance -500, second 1000 third 2000...ect)
Rationale:

There currently is no game feedback system which properly indicates to players on a personal level that their build needs adjustment or out right sucks. Too many players are making it too far into the game with below sub par builds do to lack of game feedback. In other words, the game has no real personal penalty for death which could provoke thought pertaining to "personal build issues". This is a problem long term for the game model (business model as long term commitments wont occur) as players will reach a certain level and deem the game too hard or the player base "too mean" as they can not stay alive for more then a few minutes.

Problems:


unknown impact of player feedback regarding build problems.
The massive amount of poorly constructed players currently in game will cause problems for many well devised players.
how does this effect TR?

This may not be "the answer" to game feedback vs player feedback for build quality.

If you have a better idea please post it. Other wise just post the standard /signed /unsigned...yes or no...whatever you want.

You know if you did this you and the rest of the jerks in our guild would not be allowed to cause my death for loot right?

Seriously at this point I dont think xp debt would change bad play just make more people whine about how they shouldnt be penalized for making mistakes. I wish I had more faith in it but now adays player want the ease, they whine about flagging which is far easier then it used to be, they want shorter raid timers, guaranteed drops and the like. We dont have many who want an actual challenge anymore the few that do are called grumpy elitist. Ahh well id sign but I doubt it will ever happen again or it would make the same impact it used to.

Hokiewa
05-25-2010, 01:20 PM
Technically exp is infinite in DDO not finite. You can continue to get experience by killing rares in explorer zones. It will be slow exp, but you will never run out as it is repeatable.

Smart! +1

I have one toon I let my godson play when visiting. He's 7, and he's limited to explorer zones. Currently, his fav place is the vale and in two months, he's gained two levels just from repetitive "rare" killing. Two +2 tomes as well lol

ddaedelus
05-25-2010, 01:38 PM
There currently is no game feedback system which properly indicates to players on a personal level that their build needs adjustment or out right sucks. Too many players are making it too far into the game with below sub par builds do to lack of game feedback.


There are many causes for dying: the player is fine but the build sucks; the build is fine but the player sucks; the player and the build are fine but the group sucks; lag and such. Dying does not discriminate between those so cannot ever be "build feedback."

Also, by what measure are you saying these builds are "sub-par" to begin with? If they are able to complete the content, then by definition they are not sub-par. And if they are not able to complete the content, then the current "feedback" system is working just fine.

My guess is that you aren't particularly concerned about builds, but that you're actually either concerned about grouping with poor players and raid slackers, or you're concerned that the content is easier than you'd like it to be.

So /not signed. I've yet to see a good reason for a death penalty.

Stormwine
05-25-2010, 01:48 PM
Im all fr an Xp penalty on death.

ahpook
05-25-2010, 02:47 PM
I am with bogenbroom: Make the death penalty be a percentage reduction of XP earned in that quest (like the reentry penalty). If you reset the quest your penalty goes away. This would slow down the advancement of poor players and given them more "practice time". The idea of also applying a small amount of penalty to the group is also interesting.

Don't bring back the XP debt penalty that we had before. It was a horrible model and is best forgotten. It encouraged people to NOT play characters.

I only see 2 problems with the XP penalty:

- It has no effect on capped toons. This is a common problem with many solutions that have been proposed in the past.

- It might encourage people to drop group if their penalty gets too large. I don't actually see this as a problem. If they were dying and you weren't trying to keep them alive how important were they to your success?

Bogenbroom
05-25-2010, 02:59 PM
I only see 2 problems with the XP penalty:

- It has no effect on capped toons. This is a common problem with many solutions that have been proposed in the past.

Well, I would have an issue applying XP penalties to anyone running Epic content. Anyway, by the time you are capped I think you may have earned a little break. :)

BattleCircle
05-25-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm all for xp debt death penalty. It is the best learning experience this game has ever known.

Mockduck
05-25-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't think a death xp penalty would achieve the OP's goals. Rather than rewarding cohesive group strategy and success, it would simply make questing even more frustrating. Now, when there's a wipe, people can discuss tactics/make changes and go back in with a goal of succeeding. Having an xp penalty would just make questing a "complete success or utter failure". On death, rather than trying it again, it seems like people would be like, "I'm not going to take more xp debt cuz of noob x!"

Deaths happen. Bad groups happen. Punishing people for mistakes or for being in lesser quality groups would hurt DDO more than help it. It would lead to increased polarization, further separating quality players from people who are learning the game.

I remember the "old" xp debt days. Rather than trying again, people simply logged off and waited until their xp decayed back to normal before logging in on a particular character again. When it got to the point that a night of questing wouldn't improve your character, rather, just be about making up lost xp, it hurt the game commercially and population-wise. So they got rid of it.

I agree the current death penalty is pretty minor, but I don't consider that to be a bad thing.

Noctus
05-25-2010, 03:42 PM
The old system was bad. It encouraged you to not play certain characters while the XP-penatly on them was wearing off.


The current system is bad in a different taste. It discourages grouping with unknown players, as if some random pugger gets himself killed you loose out on XP.

A simple adjustment to the current XP-loss on death system would be switching it from group-wide to personally.
--->So that you still get your 10% deathless XP if you dont die, and thus are not penalized for the clueless zerger who separated himself from the party and took on 3 ogres on himself, while at half HP and 3 rooms away from the cleric.

ddaedelus
05-25-2010, 03:59 PM
A simple adjustment to the current XP-loss on death system would be switching it from group-wide to personally.
--->So that you still get your 10% deathless XP if you dont die, and thus are not penalized for the clueless zerger who separated himself from the party and took on 3 ogres on himself, while at half HP and 3 rooms away from the cleric.

Conversely, doesn't that end up discouraging group play or even enable griefing? You're a leet zerger in a party of flower sniffers? Abandon them and let them get killed if they get swarmed. Instead of trying to help out some poor schmuck who can't whack a troll properly, let him die. Healer decides he doesn't like someone, let him die. Several times if possible.

While I'm not entirely thrilled with losing the XP bonus because someone in my party is stupid, at least a group-wide loss encourages us to act like a group even when we'd rather not.

EazyWeazy
05-25-2010, 04:04 PM
I only read the thread title, but here's my feedback.

JESUS NO!!! I'd have to learn how to play again!!! :D

Lithic
05-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Conversely, doesn't that end up discouraging group play or even enable griefing? You're a leet zerger in a party of flower sniffers? Abandon them and let them get killed if they get swarmed. Instead of trying to help out some poor schmuck who can't whack a troll properly, let him die. Healer decides he doesn't like someone, let him die. Several times if possible.

While I'm not entirely thrilled with losing the XP bonus because someone in my party is stupid, at least a group-wide loss encourages us to act like a group even when we'd rather not.

If a complete moron who bought his account on Ebay and has no clue what he is doing joins your party, you usually find out just as he dies, losing your experience. Even an average moron will usually show their colours as they die rather than back in town when you can do something about them. This means that by the time you know someone needs help, they already cost you the 10%. This leads to less PUGing as the unknown are most often "Mr. -10%" and his friends "I died", "I recalled", and their younger annoying sibling "I'm coming back in to cost you another 10%".

If the death penalty was personal, then inviting unknown people would cost me nothing, and I'd be more likely to do it often.

Lorz
05-25-2010, 04:14 PM
Conversely, doesn't that end up discouraging group play or even enable griefing? You're a leet zerger in a party of flower sniffers? Abandon them and let them get killed if they get swarmed. Instead of trying to help out some poor schmuck who can't whack a troll properly, let him die. Healer decides he doesn't like someone, let him die. Several times if possible.

While I'm not entirely thrilled with losing the XP bonus because someone in my party is stupid, at least a group-wide loss encourages us to act like a group even when we'd rather not.

Your theory holds water right up until the first death...then i can let you die repeatedly. Maybe they will smarten up after i rez them 5 times....maybe 10...maybe after they get the repair bill...but i doubt it.

Keep them from leveling...and yes...people learn...


This is what is missing now...there is no stopping a bad player or poor player from capping or even TRing with the current system...and that is why it sucks. At least with the old XP debt...their behavior prevented them from achieving the reward of leveling up. So i still vote for bring it back...and i can still grief you by letting you die..... there is nothing after the first death for me to even worry about....so i just let you die and die and die.


Where as with XP debt....you will wisen up or be a lvl 1 for ever.

Lorz
05-25-2010, 04:15 PM
I only read the thread title, but here's my feedback.

JESUS NO!!! I'd have to learn how to play again!!! :D

That right there is proof enough we need it :)

Actually it is.

Faelyndel
05-25-2010, 04:15 PM
I'm not sure what to think on this one.
I do agree there should be some penalty for frequently dying. If you die that often, you're doing something wrong, but, while I don't remember the xp debt of yore, from what I can glean of it from this thread, I hesitate to support it's return. Perhaps if it could be reduced or removed, or that the 10% deathless bonus becomes exlusive to the player and not group-wide, as suggested but even then it wouldn't be perfect.
One issue I see with any kind of death penalty is accidents: should you really be penalized for, say, not making a jump and taking crazy fall damage? Another thing I'd worry about is making it harder to learn the game. What happens if it's everyone's first time through a quest, or the people who have done it *gasp* don't remember where every single trap is in the quest, and somebody dies from it. Is a penalty for that really fair?

Antheal
05-25-2010, 04:33 PM
/signed

Individual death penalties not 10% group penalties for death. I hate losing 10% because some yoyo thinks hes uber and goes and dies running into a group of monsters before the rest of the group gets there.

I agree with this.

ddaedelus
05-25-2010, 04:37 PM
If a complete moron who bought his account on Ebay and has no clue what he is doing joins your party, you usually find out just as he dies, losing your experience. Even an average moron will usually show their colours as they die rather than back in town when you can do something about them. This means that by the time you know someone needs help, they already cost you the 10%. This leads to less PUGing as the unknown are most often "Mr. -10%" and his friends "I died", "I recalled", and their younger annoying sibling "I'm coming back in to cost you another 10%".

If the death penalty was personal, then inviting unknown people would cost me nothing, and I'd be more likely to do it often.

I was being facetious (and not doing it well). My point is that you can argue the grouping thing from both sides.

Inviting unknown people still costs you. It still costs you the chance of having a bad experience with a player, which, to me is much worse than an xp hit. 10% xp loss? Big deal. Things happen. Group with a mouthy, terrible players? That, on the other hand, ruins my night.

Surely I'm not the only one who avoids pugs because of the people rather the possibility of xp loss?

A death penalty on top (or instead of) what we already have is not going to solve stupidity. It will not make them better players. (Looking at it the other way, the xp bonus for a deathless run hasn't made them better players, nor would a 20% bonus). It will not encourage pugs or grouping. It will discourage people from trying difficult content. It will frustrate some players and drive them away. Of course a lot of people would be tickled pink by that.

QuintessenceON
05-25-2010, 04:42 PM
In Final Fantasy XI there is a 10% death penalty meaning if your total experience needed to hit the next level was 40,000 you would lose 4,000 experience per death. Now, you could cut that down 50% with a 1st-tier Raise, Raise 2 is like 75% and a Raise 3 is like 95% I think? So only 2,000/1,000/200 experience loss respectively. I think it's a fair loss for their system considering you can make anywhere from 5,000 experience an hour up to 30,000 experience an hour. Granted higher amounts of experience an hour happen at the endgame levels.

That is what kind of penalty I come from and like.

mindlessdrone1991
05-25-2010, 04:47 PM
/not signed

I remember when xp debt was in... It was terrible. Perhaps I'm not the best player with great builds, but being rid of xp debt was a wonderful improvement to the game. It makes people more likely to stick it out in situations that go south.

(I know my join date may confuse people, but I was a subscriber for a few years and came back as free-to-play after a lengthy absence.)

Midarc
05-25-2010, 08:54 PM
I wouldn't be in favor of this.

I've always been more in favor of incentives over penalty.
find some method of rewarding those who acheive flawless results on their adventures.
Perhaps a sigil awarded on completion that when enough are gathered can be traded in for items or some other reward.

Any punishment that persists beyond the immediate faliure of the adventure will only serve to impede those who already have enough troubles already.

Rakian_Knight
05-25-2010, 10:44 PM
I can see both sides to this argument. We need a system that punishes you for dieing but doesn't punish everyone for a single idiots actions.

I don't believe the XP penalty would work on the subject of rejecting bad builds, it would just turn the game into more of the already over-populated "power player" kind of world.

I personally don't use other peoples builds, I've always use custom (even when I first started) and I don't make the best characters, but they are my characters and I can play them in a different way that makes them just as good if not better then the normal way that is expected from the class I choose. However, what is most important is that when I created a character that turned out to be so full of bugs that he needed redone, I deleted and recreated him.

The only other question I have for death penalties, is that if they are recreated or reimplemented into the game, will you get one for the /death command. The main reason I ask is that is how myself and a lot of other players get to Meridia for Shroud runs or other stuff in the Vale.

Ashiel_Dragmire
05-25-2010, 11:17 PM
There was an MMO that I played for a bit where death caused you to lose 3% of the XP you had towards your next level up. It was annoying to have to get that XP back, but it didn't take too long. Of course in DDO a level is more like 5 or 6 of that game's levels, so I imagine X% off of a Rank would be more appropriate.

I always wondered what the "XP Debt" in the City Regeneration description was talking about (I only started during F2P), and now I know.

dopamine
05-25-2010, 11:36 PM
I would love XP penalty, but sadly you can't train people in this game...so it really is pointless sorry

bobbryan2
05-25-2010, 11:38 PM
There's not enough high level xp to support an xp penalty at end game. Try the request again after there's 1,000,000 xp or so at end game.

cardmj1
05-25-2010, 11:40 PM
I would like to see it return and not just for the learning curve it would add to poor players, poor build and what not. I would like to see for party tactics. There are too many people that do not understand how to run a quest with a group of people. You enter and off they go in every direction imaginable, refuse to regroup and when they die... well they blame everyone. Also, there are alot of "healers" out there who don't know how to heal. I don't care if they are a melee fvs, a battle cleric, or some concoction in between. They still need to know how to heal or at least how to understand what it means to heal. Bring it back!

bobbryan2
05-25-2010, 11:43 PM
I would like to see it return and not just for the learning curve it would add to poor players, poor build and what not. I would like to see for party tactics. There are too many people that do not understand how to run a quest with a group of people. You enter and off they go in every direction imaginable, refuse to regroup and when they die... well they blame everyone. Also, there are alot of "healers" out there who don't know how to heal. I don't care if they are a melee fvs, a battle cleric, or some concoction in between. They still need to know how to heal or at least how to understand what it means to heal. Bring it back!

All my experience in DDO says that the old penalty did nothing but punish bad play. It didn't actually train people to play well... it just frustrated people who played poorly.

You may think the two are synonomous, but they're not.

At best, xp penalties are cathartic for good players to laugh at bad players and feel satisfaction that they're not getting screwed over like those other guys.

There's a certain amount of satisfaction with that... but it was never a good training mechanism. There was just as much zerging back then as there is now.

cardmj1
05-25-2010, 11:48 PM
All my experience in DDO says that the old penalty did nothing but punish bad play. It didn't actually train people to play well... it just frustrated people who played poorly.

You may think the two are synonomous, but they're not.

At best, xp penalties are cathartic for good players to laugh at bad players and feel satisfaction that they're not getting screwed over like those other guys.

There's a certain amount of satisfaction with that... but it was never a good training mechanism. There was just as much zerging back then as there is now.

Yes and no. It is extremely frustrating to sit with tons of xp debt. But the player who wonders why they have it and then asks for help becomes a player with knowledge. Therefore, they do learn. The ones that quit will never really like this game because it does take thought and if they can't make the cut then they will be griefed (like they are now) by players who know what they are doing.

eonfreon
05-25-2010, 11:50 PM
With Dungeon Alert and some of the griefing I've encountered, wherein a TR, with lots of gear and consumables, zerged a quest to Red Alert, knowing he would survive while others didn't stand a chance, I have to say:

/not signed to XP debt

In that instance the "bad player" wouldn't be punished at all.

Kriogen
05-26-2010, 03:37 AM
No.

Sharzade
05-26-2010, 04:06 AM
/unsigned, I like how it works now in terms of resurrection sickness. :)

I don't like XP hits at all, and currently I'm a bit sad when a death results in the party not getting that death-free completion bonus of 10 % more XP. Not getting that bonus 10 % is plenty of death consequence for me. I reckon that reintroducing an XP penalty would make players even more leary of pugging.

And of course... "Oops, can't do Epic atm, forgot I died and dropped a level.":) :p

Sharzei
:D ;)

fatherpirate
05-26-2010, 06:30 AM
lol, I play in a permadeath guild...our 'death' penalty is kinda ...perm. :-P

Daliyn
05-26-2010, 07:25 AM
1. I like the idea of a death penalty, in fact I was astonished that it's not implemented in DDO in a more punitive way. OTOH, I just want to be punished when it's me who is accountable for my own death. Punish me when I solo and bite off more than I can chew, I don't care. But a penalty when the healer goes afk in a boss fight or when a zerger refuses to die in the middle of the assembled dungeon population, but brings it back to the rest of the group? It's easy for a single bad player to wipe a whole group, and when that happens, even the player based penalty vs. group based penalty idea doesn't work any more.

2.
This is what is missing now...there is no stopping a bad player or poor player from capping or even TRing with the current system...and that is why it sucks.

Something like that will never happen. Bad players are customers of the DDOStore too, probably even better customers, as they need much more resources. Turbine will never implement any game mechanics which keeps these guys from playing, capping and TRing.

3. I too do not think that penalties/punishment can be appropriate means to educate bad/inexperienced players, it just leads to frustration. An incentive system will always be more successful, as it motivates and perhaps provokes some deeper interest and real development of skill and knowledge.

Lorz
05-26-2010, 07:39 AM
There's not enough high level xp to support an xp penalty at end game. Try the request again after there's 1,000,000 xp or so at end game.

Funnyyou and others say this but my TR2 had no issue getting all that xp with 54 quests untouched.
My guildy has TR2d in 2 weeks.


I see what your saying but the facts do not support what your saying.


The xp is there.

And if your talking non tr...there is way too much xp available.
If your talking TR...why are you dying? Really?

arcticwolf666
05-26-2010, 07:47 AM
/Unsigned

Was how it used to be and the devs rid the neg xp penalty. Did not work out like they planned.

Besides, if the uber players actually help out the new people and guide them in the right direction instead of blasting them and calling them idiots when they do something dumb etc. maybe people won't be so quick in their decisions and play smarter.

Help others, hmmm what a concept

clkpacker
05-26-2010, 08:39 AM
I think an XP penalty, as I understand it from people's comments, would really hurt both group play and new players.


I feel there's a disconnect here between truly new players who die because of ignorance, and noob players who die because they're idiots. An XP penalty is going to discourage new players and do nothing to noobs--a noob thinks nothing is his fault, ergo an XP penalty is, in his mind, nothing to do with him. It's the fault of the healer who didn't heal fast enough, or the "gimped" DPS who couldn't hit hard enough, or the rogue who didn't disable that trap before he jumped into it.

New players are trying to learn, and part of learning is making mistakes. I'm new and I cannot tell you how many times I've been killed by a trap I didn't know was there, a boss I didn't know how to kill, some effect I didn't know how to get rid of, etc. It's not on account of me being a bad player, it's because I'm learning. I now know where those traps are. I now know you need silver weapons to kill vampires. And I've finally figured out how to get rid of mummy rot. If I'm constantly dying because I don't have the wiki open to a quest guide, the fun of the game vanishes fast. Some of the best groups I've been in are ones of all new players where we all wipe because of some unforeseen complication. We regroup, we change tactics; and if we die again, we try again with something new. An XP penalty penalizes this crucial sort of experimentation.

Chaosprism
05-26-2010, 08:48 AM
I like players trying to AVOID death rather than rushing in blindly with no tactics, knowing all that death is going to cost them is a little gold in repairs.


Xp debt did fade with time before they removed it altogether, you can still see the city regeneration buff mention this.

Debt should be some sort of fixed small amount, not getting up to 30,000 xp at high levels. That far too much. It should be level dependant but at most something like 2000 xp at level 20. (100 xp per level of character)


Thats if they ever decide to bring it back.

Chai
05-26-2010, 12:04 PM
Anyone who cries about xp debt should play EQ1 for a few weeks. When you die you lose 2/3 of a level AND you spawn a corpse at your death point that has all your gear on it. You now have to travel to where you died, with no gear on, and loot all your stuff.

Thats right, if you just hit level 35 for instance, then died at the bottom of a dungeon, you are now level 34 with approximately 1/3 of the xp into 34, and you now have to get to the bottom of the same dungeon you died in, naked, to get your corpse.

The xp penalty of old in DDO was paltry at best. It would even work itself off over time.

taurean430
05-26-2010, 12:31 PM
I'm not convinced that the xp debt system of the past would be the optimal solution. In leveling my alts, I've taken notice of the amount of players that simply will not follow instructions, ( ie don't pick that up/talk to that person/go in that room alone etc..). What's worse to me are the amount of players that either intentionally make one shot wonder toons and become downright belligerent when you try to help them with advice or items. This used to be constricted to the harbor quests through gianthold at the worst. I now see many of them at cap having learned to join parties with more experienced players and not contribute.

On the surface, it sounds like a good way to force a player to figure out what they are doing that doesn't work. As others have stated, I see more possibilities of xp debt becoming a greifing tool than a motivator to learn. Personally, my observation has been that there are already enough players in this game that exclude people unknown to them from high level content. I've seen this a number of times on my capped fvs with shroud runs as one example. I do understand the reasons I've been given, yet the fact remains that in the multitude of successful runs I've been part of... it shouldn't be necessary to have a pr guy so I can run such a simple end game raid without fear of undergeared/badly played toons costing me exponentially more resources to accomplish the same end. Suffice to say, I've been convinced the reason there are so many capped toons that don't contribute has more to do with them learning how to get into parties with more experienced players and ride the wave to level 20. My initial thoughts on xp debt lead me to believe that rather than functioning as a learning tool for the less experienced... it would become more of a reason to further polarize/segregate the player population.

I've taken to the idea recently of letting the group know that the current tactics/gear/whatever isn't going to get us through whatever the content of the moment is. In regular non raid quests, I'll simply leave if that notice and following suggestions are met with continued negativity. It's the only way I've seen to date to encourage learning about the game. Choosing not to carry people through quests imo forces them to learn them themselves. To me, this means more competent capped toons to run with. And not seeing lots of zero fort, low hitpoint toons that require frequent resurrecting who take resources without contributing to party success.

salmag
05-27-2010, 11:09 AM
I enjoyed the old system. It made quests, especially first time running through quests, more fun and interesting. To be honest, I absolutely hated it when they removed it.

Bring back the old system, please.

Devonian
05-27-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm not sure that making death hurt more is going to help. All it will do is make the effects of a bad pug or poor build on a raid that much worse, so new players will find it that much harder to get groups and so louse interest faster.

I'd possibly agree that death needs to sting more, but it needs to stay a slap to wake you up and show you've been foolish, not a complete kicking.

Loki
05-28-2010, 01:46 PM
My formative D&D years were spent on old school AD&D. Death was a *****, and players were actually SCARED of it. I've carried this over to DDO.

So I'm in support of BOTH systems. When you die, there should be some sort of monetary cost. I don't think it should be extra damage to gear; a "donation" to your resurrector would be more appropriate in my opinion.

And you should lose XP. I'd even like a form of the old "-1 CON" rule. Not necessarily permanent, but a significant duration. 30 minutes maybe? Issues involving death taxi would have to be fixed first, or it would be a real burden putting certain groups together.

I'm unimpressed with those crying about losing 30k XP for high level characters. Last night I played with 2 guildies. We were 12, 12, and 14. 2.5 hours of VERY casual play netted us 20k XP (each, not total). Without any effort we could have accomplished that in 1.5 hours, we just weren't in the mood to rush.

So if a lvl 18-20 char dies and loses ~30k, I would expect them to be able to work that off in an hour or so. That sounds reasonable to me. 30m of Con penalty and 1hr of XP penalty, served concurrently, is a fitting punishment for death.

Or you log off for a bit and play another character. Hopefully you play a different class/role and get a better perspective of the game. Is that so horrible?

And if you insist on only playing one class or role, then there's an excuse to go level up your backup character. It's unlikely that the type of person who is that dedicated to a single class/role would be tied to a single character. They'll have multiple interchangeable characters. And, the beauty of swapping chars is that the group doesn't get punished by a re-entry; the player suffers the late arrival penalty.

Under the old system capped characters laughed at the penalty. Who cares if you rack up 500k in XP debt? It'll be months before you need to worry about it. I'm not sure how that will work now that we've hit lvl 20 and probably won't see another increase to the lvl cap. Perhaps you couldn't LR/GR/TR if you had any XP debt?

And, iirc, they nerfed the system in its final days to only take effect after a certain level. 3, I think. If Turbine thinks XP debt will scare new players, do a better job of educating them. Bring back the old tutorials (updated of course) and force the first char of each class created on the account to go through it.

I rarely hear "it takes too long to level". I usually hear "DDO isn't like other MMOs. It's too complicated." D&D IS complicated, on the surface. With PnP you can get your book and read about what numbers go where. DDO doesn't list that info anywhere. Good lord, it wasn't that long ago that you had no way of knowing what your DC was. It wasn't listed in the tool tip like it is now, and the PvP pits didn't exist. I remember being ecstatic about PvP so we could actually get some hard numbers on Stunning Blow, Trip, etc.

I think Turbine should peel back that layer of obfuscation even further and give players (new or otherwise) access to the underlying mechanics. Why aren't there NPCs in Stormreach who explain the bestiary, complete with actual numbers? Even if it's an average, or an estimate. Or a library where you can get that info? I recently saw a thread about how stupid Niac's is because everything you fight at low levels saves against it. If that OP had seen an explanation of kobolds and how to fight them, he might have been able to figure out that Niac's is a poor choice against kobolds but GREAT against giantkin. Instead, he was so frustrated with his perceived ineffectiveness that he felt compelled to rant about it on the forums.

Turbine can't put more effort into punishing players than is put into educating them. And since the don't do much educating, there isn't much punishing either.

The old system had its flaws, just as the new system does. But I think the old way was better suited to the task of providing negative feedback for ineffective actions.