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View Full Version : Please remove the ATDQ preraid to do raid



DartanTR
05-22-2010, 12:17 PM
It is very annoying having to do this all the time.

Comfortably
05-22-2010, 12:21 PM
You have it easy man. Back when I was a kid we had to run all 4 quests to flag. So shutup and go run adq.

TreknaQudane
05-22-2010, 12:21 PM
It is very annoying having to do this all the time.

It's much less annoying than running Offering, Chains, and Chamber every time and then running Against the Demon Queen.

Jiipster
05-22-2010, 12:24 PM
Just because something used to be horrible doesn't mean things aren't bad now.

TreknaQudane
05-22-2010, 12:26 PM
:)
Just because something used to be horrible doesn't mean things aren't bad now.

But in this case, they aren't

The Against the Demon Queen 2 is a very short raid, whats the problem having us do the first part every time? You can't just go right to Velah, you have to do the Vault.. It's the same idea.

Oolung
05-22-2010, 12:26 PM
like the others have said: before the F2P launch, we had to run all three of the main quests in the desert, then run the pre-raid, then run the raid. I think the current system in place is much better as I don't have to stockpile the items in my bank for every three days

sirgog
05-22-2010, 12:36 PM
It's less bad than it was.

That said, running ADQ1 on Casual with level 18-20 characters isn't fun, isn't challenging, isn't interesting and is just a chore. Running it on Epic is exciting, but ADQ1 is too tough on Epic for most groups (even ones that are good enough to take on ADQ2). And there's no incentive to run it on Hard or Elite (except once for favor).

So /signed.

Memnir
05-22-2010, 12:44 PM
ADQ1 is not a hard quest. Nor is it a time consuming one.
In fact, the most annoying part of it, in my humble opinion, is dealing with people getting lost on the run to the quest.


Besides, ADQ2 is short enough as-is...


/not signed

bobbryan2
05-22-2010, 12:47 PM
AtDQ isn't as bad as running to AtDQ

Jiipster
05-22-2010, 12:53 PM
:)

But in this case, they aren't

The Against the Demon Queen 2 is a very short raid, whats the problem having us do the first part every time? You can't just go right to Velah, you have to do the Vault.. It's the same idea.

VoN5 at least has the decency to be a raid, and directly leading up to VoN6. If ADQ was a raid (or not a five minute run through the desert), I probably wouldn't complain.

SaisMatters
05-22-2010, 01:12 PM
VoN5 at least has the decency to be a raid, and directly leading up to VoN6. If ADQ was a raid (or not a five minute run through the desert), I probably wouldn't complain.

I agree with this. The problem is getting twelve people who are ready, so the better solution would be turn Against the Demon Queen into a raid and connect it to number 2 to bring it in kind with VON and Titan

Lorz
05-22-2010, 01:12 PM
I see the "more easy button" folks are still at it.

If it's too much trouble to run that simp,e pre quest each time...just quit now....seriously....go play yo-ville or something else that requires no effort what so ever.

Like others have said....it is easier now than ever.....no wonder most players can't play worth a damn.....

Lorz
05-22-2010, 01:13 PM
VoN5 at least has the decency to be a raid, and directly leading up to VoN6. If ADQ was a raid (or not a five minute run through the desert), I probably wouldn't complain.

Ok your doing it wrong if it's a 5 min run through desert.


And I'm sorry that wreaks of fail.....so much fail concentrated in so many.

Darsith
05-22-2010, 01:28 PM
It is very annoying having to do this all the time.

Why do you find this annoying? What do you propose needs to be changed? Simply coming here and saying "so and so sucks, please fix it" is not always the way to go.

I find this quest is easy, if they removed it I would be happy as I would not have to run it ever again. Most level 20's that need to flag for it can solo it on casual/normal just need to be self sufficient.

P.S. I am grateful that I dont have to re-run the flagging quests... I dont think I would ever bother with this raid.

Guildmaster_Kadish
05-22-2010, 01:29 PM
So... they should eliminate the DQ1 requirement because... it's annoying and not really a proper raid?

Heck, I could say the same about DQ2! Neither takes more than 10 minutes, and neither provides any real difficulty, so how about we just talk to Zawabi and grab our loot and start the timer.

;)

Kalari
05-22-2010, 01:59 PM
Have to agree with the guys here as someone who remembers and used to flag the old way I'll take running atdq only over it any time. Its real easy now with casual to run in by yourself and get it done when you cant find a group bring a hireling for monkey levers if you arent twitchy enough to run and jump fast enough to beat the timer. Lost Leader has a guide in the forums explaining the order on how to take on the rooms. Many times if im on late night and theres nothing to do I'll jump in do a quick flag just in case I feel like taking on the DQ.

/not signed

acidtiger
05-22-2010, 02:19 PM
I don't mind running ADQ1 every 3 days to get keyed. What I do HATE is ppl - despite being told 10 times - not talking to the djinni twice and the 'door' not warning ppl that they aren't on the right step of the quest chain...

BlackSteel
05-22-2010, 03:31 PM
complaining about a 5-7 minute quest thats required to flag for a raid?

sure its incrediably easy at cap, but it also gives you something to do while the raid is forming so its not so bad. OR it can be done before hand, its actually a nice mechanic.

if there was named loot in the quest you would hear less complaining I bet....

DartanTR
05-23-2010, 12:13 AM
To clarify, my complaint is I have to run 5 min to get to a quest, destroy it on casual. Yes, I think if there was named loot or something more rewarding, then yea it wouldn't be so bad (think Subterrane).

Oolung
05-23-2010, 12:19 AM
To clarify, my complaint is I have to run 5 min to get to a quest, destroy it on casual. Yes, I think if there was named loot or something more rewarding, then yea it wouldn't be so bad (think Subterrane).

at least in the Subterrane you can take twelve people...back when titan came out, you had to run two 6-man groups over to the raid...now that was annoying

sirgog
05-23-2010, 12:21 AM
My biggest complaint is that ADQ1 is a fun quest when done 'properly' (i.e. by a group that is somewhat challenged by it - a level 10-12 on Normal, a level 12-14 group on Hard and even as high as a 15-18 group on Elite will have some fun there).

But the quest is ruined by being forced to zerg it every three days on my Torc-less level 20s.

Angelus_dead
05-23-2010, 12:38 AM
The requirement to go VON5->VON6, Forge->Titan, and Court->Laliat made sense back when those areas were first released, and the raid was mostly run on Normal. The preraid's combat challenge was less than that of the climax, but it was longer and called for different tactical management, so defeating that section was a balanced obstacle on the way to your raid loot. For groups to fail (or at least have trouble) in the preraid was a normal occurence.

But that justification fell apart when the level cap moved up and the standard way to run the raid became Elite or later Epic. Characters able to do the raid on the higher mode viewed the Normal mode preraid opponents as nothing but a tedious waste of time- and naturally they didn't run it on higher than Normal because there was no benefit to doing so.

There are two approaches that could be taken to fix this:
1. Allow some characters to skip the preraid and go right into the raid. That could be restricted to only work if the raid is set on above normal, and only if the character has already done the preraid on that setting.
2. Disallow characters from entering the raid at a mode less than that of the preraid instance they came from.

Option 2 would really have been better if it had been in place from the start, but it's too late for that now (plus it would require some real programmer effort). For example, it's been observed that obtaining epic Sword of Shadows is too easy. If epic VON5 had been required then there'd have been actual effort involved, not just patience, Option 1 is simpler, although it would cast certain design flaws in starker relief.

Khelden
05-23-2010, 12:42 AM
/signed to get ADQ1 a 12man raid ! :D

Memnir
05-23-2010, 12:46 AM
I have an addendum to the suggestion...

How about after 20, 40, or something like that, number of DQ completions... you earn the right to skip the preraid?

Aussieee
05-23-2010, 12:47 AM
:)

But in this case, they aren't

The Against the Demon Queen 2 is a very short raid, whats the problem having us do the first part every time? You can't just go right to Velah, you have to do the Vault.. It's the same idea.
I think my problem with it it isn't a raid,. If dq1 was a raid, I wouldn't be bothered as much and from there you zone in dq2......

On other side you can zone in right into Reaver without having to redo TOR..... Would be great if other raids were the same :p

Merlocke
05-23-2010, 01:01 AM
Its definatley not bad to zerg a casual adq1 compared to keying the old way. I used to never see LFMs for DQ when you have to do all 3 quests each time. Same with the Dragon.
You can use a solver (http://ddowiki.com/page/Against_the_Demon_Queen_riddle) if you need too. plus you can always try for a bloodstone or some firestorm greaves while out there.

lugoman
05-23-2010, 01:05 AM
:)

But in this case, they aren't

The Against the Demon Queen 2 is a very short raid, whats the problem having us do the first part every time? You can't just go right to Velah, you have to do the Vault.. It's the same idea.

The problem is it makes the game boring. That is a huge problem for a game.

bobbryan2
05-23-2010, 01:05 AM
To be fair though... I don't see what AtDQ actually 'adds' to the experience other than anti-fun.

Angelus_dead
05-23-2010, 01:06 AM
/signed to get ADQ1 a 12man raid ! :D
When I first saw Court of Laliat, I suspected that the developers might have been trying to make it a 12-man instance, but gave up due to some problem. Imagine if it was something like you need to split up and do all six rooms at once...

The physical similarity between Laliat's Court and Circle of Eternity suggests that maybe they'd planned for players to progress directly from one to another, as in von5->von6.

Angelus_dead
05-23-2010, 01:10 AM
Its definatley not bad to zerg a casual adq1 compared to keying the old way. I used to never see LFMs for DQ when you have to do all 3 quests each time. Same with the Dragon.
There's a different reason for that: back then there was no loot reward for filling up the raid group. Players would reflag with a six-man party and then use the same group to immediately beat the raid. They'd possibly add another few people for the end, but there was no need to stop and advertise by LFM.

sirgog
05-23-2010, 03:21 AM
I have an addendum to the suggestion...

How about after 20, 40, or something like that, number of DQ completions... you earn the right to skip the preraid?

I think after 5 Elite completions, or one Epic.

That way, you earn the right to skip it, rather than merely grinding it.

Shade
05-23-2010, 08:52 AM
Removing content is never an option.

What needs to be is just fixing the silly setup where you need to break your raid into 2 groups and jump thru flagging hoops that invariable at least 1 person messes up every run. (I think around 80% of my DQ2 epics I ran with 11 of 12 because someone always forgets a step)

I mean mod1 (dragon) and mod (titan) had it right, why mess with a good thing. Just convert DQ to work similarly:

You talk to Zawabi: He teleports you as a full raidgroup to the court of lailat (Not the circle of eternity). DQ1 is rebalanced, and made a bit bigger and beefed up to challenge a raid group. You still do the prefight which is easy. But upon her teleporting away, the quest completes and a portal to the raid appears - Also the barrier behind you never raises, preventing others from releases/re-entering the raid.
You click on the teleporter to enter the raid (quest entrance inside a quest, ala VoN5, Titan), it skips you right to the shrine inside the raid)

The old entrance to ADQ1 in the Desert would be removed and converted into a new explore point and rare dragon spawn with a new named item. Being it is such a long run, it could be a fairly powerful item.

For Epic, ADQ gets 2 epic chests, each with a dungeon token. Being it could be even longer then the current version (as a raid dungeon) .. 1 or 2 new shrines need to be added tho.

HallowedOne
05-23-2010, 09:00 AM
I just wish it were a raid as well, that way you flag with the 12 man needed to run the raid as well.

Boldrin
05-23-2010, 09:30 AM
It's a 10 minute quest and is easily soloable, quit whining, or build a better toon.

Boldrin
05-23-2010, 09:31 AM
Removing content is never an option.

What needs to be is just fixing the silly setup where you need to break your raid into 2 groups and jump thru flagging hoops that invariable at least 1 person messes up every run. (I think around 80% of my DQ2 epics I ran with 11 of 12 because someone always forgets a step)

I mean mod1 (dragon) and mod (titan) had it right, why mess with a good thing. Just convert DQ to work similarly:

You talk to Zawabi: He teleports you as a full raidgroup to the court of lailat (Not the circle of eternity). DQ1 is rebalanced, and made a bit bigger and beefed up to challenge a raid group. You still do the prefight which is easy. But upon her teleporting away, the quest completes and a portal to the raid appears - Also the barrier behind you never raises, preventing others from releases/re-entering the raid.
You click on the teleporter to enter the raid (quest entrance inside a quest, ala VoN5, Titan), it skips you right to the shrine inside the raid)

The old entrance to ADQ1 in the Desert would be removed and converted into a new explore point and rare dragon spawn with a new named item. Being it is such a long run, it could be a fairly powerful item.

For Epic, ADQ gets 2 epic chests, each with a dungeon token. Being it could be even longer then the current version (as a raid dungeon) .. 1 or 2 new shrines need to be added tho.

Actually a very good idea

Hendrik
05-23-2010, 09:51 AM
ADQ1 is not a hard quest. Nor is it a time consuming one.
In fact, the most annoying part of it, in my humble opinion, is dealing with people getting lost on the run to the quest.


Besides, ADQ2 is short enough as-is...


/not signed


Right along with you on this one Mem...

Irinis
05-23-2010, 10:21 AM
It doesn't take 5 minutes to run out to ADQ, if I'm hasted my haste doesn't even wear off before I get there... what are you doing, hitting the entire undead side before heading over?

But yes, making it a 12-man preraid would be much better, especially on epic. Adding shrines in epic after each Prince encounter might also be a plan... 70+ mana pots EACH on 2 healers and 20+ on my caster was not fun, especially when I only had 32 pots to start with and now can't do any other epics for a few months until I get more mana pots. (Oh but I'm supposed to buy those in the store, silly me!)

sirgog
05-23-2010, 10:47 AM
Removing content is never an option.

What needs to be is just fixing the silly setup where you need to break your raid into 2 groups and jump thru flagging hoops that invariable at least 1 person messes up every run. (I think around 80% of my DQ2 epics I ran with 11 of 12 because someone always forgets a step)

I mean mod1 (dragon) and mod (titan) had it right, why mess with a good thing. Just convert DQ to work similarly:

You talk to Zawabi: He teleports you as a full raidgroup to the court of lailat (Not the circle of eternity). DQ1 is rebalanced, and made a bit bigger and beefed up to challenge a raid group. You still do the prefight which is easy. But upon her teleporting away, the quest completes and a portal to the raid appears - Also the barrier behind you never raises, preventing others from releases/re-entering the raid.
You click on the teleporter to enter the raid (quest entrance inside a quest, ala VoN5, Titan), it skips you right to the shrine inside the raid)

The old entrance to ADQ1 in the Desert would be removed and converted into a new explore point and rare dragon spawn with a new named item. Being it is such a long run, it could be a fairly powerful item.

For Epic, ADQ gets 2 epic chests, each with a dungeon token. Being it could be even longer then the current version (as a raid dungeon) .. 1 or 2 new shrines need to be added tho.

Good idea.

Make the present Elite version into the Normal version of the 12-person ADQ1, then scale Hard and Elite up from there. Epic could almost stay as-is, but add some very tough extra mobs to the seven Prince of Swords fights, and triple the Prince's HP and have him enter combat with a full Axer package of (dispellable) buffs.

zarious
05-23-2010, 11:05 AM
I would totally love to see the pre-flagging gone for this quest. It is my experience that very few ppl want to run this, even within my guild because of the problems associated with just getting a reasonable number of people flagged. Waited an hour last night just to get 2 groups thru ADQ1 "ok admittely the second group had some problems...". Why would a higher level and arguably just as short raid "Reaver Fate" not require pre-flagging while this one does?

To the people who say "it only takes a few mins blah blah" you're right, and it's an extremely boring and choresome few mins that was fun the first 5-6 times I ran it. I actually really enjoy the raid its self, but it's almost not really worth doing anymore, even if there is good loot in the raid simply because I despise the flagging. I just ran it last night on casual, and it was exactly what it has been the last 10 runs or so.... BORING.

Make it more interesting, make it a raid, anything, just change it so that's it not the boring "Yay.... THIS again...." **** that it is now.

Bobthesponge
05-23-2010, 12:05 PM
/not signed

this is an Easy Button.

1) DQ1 only takes 6 people if you do it at level with a relatively inexperienced group
2) DQ2 only takes 12 people if you do it at level with a relatively inexperienced group
3) DQ1 is part of the raid. just because it is considered 2 separate dungeons doesn't mean it is separate
4) when the falgging quests were removed as a requirement to make this a perma-flagged quest the devs did all they were going to and all that they should do
5) DQ2 needs to remain in the game because it is the only place to get a torq and a greenblade. valuable loot, that.

Angelus_dead
05-23-2010, 01:59 PM
3) DQ1 is part of the raid. just because it is considered 2 separate dungeons doesn't mean it is separate
That's just not true. If it were true then you'd have to play Laliat's Court on epic to reach the epic raid chest. But you don't, so instead Laliat's Court only real effect on top-level characters is to make them waste 10-15 minutes before joining the raid.

voodoogroves
05-23-2010, 02:50 PM
I didn't start playing until pretty recently. Still, when I did start the entire path to ADQ was uphill and for some reason, always snowing. You couldn't recall back to the refuge and instead had to walk back, and the way back was uphill too. The snow persisted and the bears were murder; all you could use against them were spell preparation materials.

You kids have it easy.