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View Full Version : How to fix 'gimped' range weapons



fatherpirate
05-21-2010, 11:10 PM
3 problems I see with range weapons

1. you can throw a dart as far as an archer can shoot a compound longbow....
2. weapon fire to slow compared with melee weapon attacks
3. melee weapons are artifically more effective than missle weapons...and they should not be

the fixes :

1. institute standard D+D ranges on weapons duh

2. ok recalabrate missle weapon speed to melee....the speed a lvl 1 makes swing attacks should equal
the speed a lvl 1 archer shoots a longbow with the proper feat. swing swing swing, plink plink plink.

3. ok here is the biggie...certain larger weapons get splash damage, and missles don't SO.....
here is the fix.

Great Crossbows, Compound Longbows, Compound Shortbows, Heavy Crossbows, Named Returning Thrown
weapons (ie Dwarven Thrower and such) SHOULD get penetration.

(keep your minds out of the gutter)

Missle Penetration = If a shot from one the those weapons KILLS its target, then that shot should get a free
attack on one other enemy standing behind them. Basically the arrow/bolt goes through and hits the next
guy. Great Crossbows should have a chance on 3 targets if it kills the first 2.

That would help ungimp range weapon combat.

Angelus_dead
05-21-2010, 11:53 PM
1. institute standard D+D ranges on weapons duh
That would be good, but wouldn't help the weaknesses with ranged. (It might open space to buff ranged by limiting how it can be applied)



2. ok recalabrate missle weapon speed to melee....the speed a lvl 1 makes swing attacks should equal
the speed a lvl 1 archer shoots a longbow with the proper feat. swing swing swing, plink plink plink.
That would be monsterously overpowered, unless several more difficult and important changes were done first. I won't repeat them all now, and just give this key phrase: "Melee and ranged don't stack"


3. ok here is the biggie...certain larger weapons get splash damage, and missles don't SO.....
Ranged weapons in DDO already get Improved Precise Shot, which does provide a giant boost in effectiveness whenever monsters are standing in a line. (Arguably too big)


Missle Penetration = If a shot from one the those weapons KILLS its target
An ability which triggers when a monster dies would be weak, because high enemy hitpoints mean only a small minority of attacks lead to a death. That's why Cleave was changed from D&D, you know.

CrosisBlackwing
05-22-2010, 12:27 AM
AD is spot on correct here imo.

Failedlegend
05-22-2010, 01:06 AM
Another problem with ranged is it costs way to many feats to even become usable.



Ranged

- Precise Shot
- Improved Precise Shot
- Rapid Reload
- Rapid shot
- IC:Ranged
- Point Blank Shot
- Many shot or Repeater Proficiency

Melee

- TWF/THF
- Improved TWF/Improved THF
- Greater TWF/ Greater THF
- IC: Slash,Bludgeon or Pierce

Inspire
05-22-2010, 02:07 AM
I think it was in the DDO compendium for a time, but a ranged version of "Power Attack" would be nice.

fatherpirate
05-22-2010, 02:10 AM
In particular, the ability..penetration should be as weak and as useful as glancing blow large melee weapons get.

Also, if you take this feat and that feat and ect.. you get it...where is the prob?
The balance prob is that large melee weapons get glancing blow automatically without feats...so
should heavy rng weapons.

fatherpirate
05-22-2010, 02:11 AM
Another problem with ranged is it costs way to many feats to even become usable.



Ranged

- Precise Shot
- Improved Precise Shot
- Rapid Reload
- Rapid shot
- IC:Ranged
- Point Blank Shot
- Many shot or Repeater Proficiency

Melee

- TWF/THF
- Improved TWF/Improved THF
- Greater TWF/ Greater THF
- IC: Slash,Bludgeon or Pierce

EXACTLY

range weapons should be just as useful as melee...just different.

honkuimushi
05-22-2010, 03:25 AM
Another problem with ranged is it costs way to many feats to even become usable.



Ranged

- Precise Shot
- Improved Precise Shot
- Rapid Reload
- Rapid shot
- IC:Ranged
- Point Blank Shot
- Many shot or Repeater Proficiency

Melee

- TWF/THF
- Improved TWF/Improved THF
- Greater TWF/ Greater THF
- IC: Slash,Bludgeon or Pierce

This is a huge factor. Especially because ranged isn't strong enough for a character to rely on more than 75% of the time(probably 50%, even if you have AA) it means that a ranged character is going to have to take most of the melee feats as well and probably Weapon Finesse as well.

You spend twice as many feats to specialize in the weakest mode of combat and then have to take some of the melee feats to keep up with the other party members. It pretty much limits ranged combat to Rangers, who are granted most of the archer feats and the TWF line, and Fighters with all of their bonus feats. It makes me worry about the Mechanic changes since they won't really have the feats to keep up and limiting Deepwood Sniper to Rangers, which locks out a lot of the characters that could most use it.

REALb0r3d
05-22-2010, 03:37 AM
Ranged weapons shouldn't be as effective as melee weapons for a very important reason.

You're ranging. You're not close enough to be hit by melee.

And you get most of the feats GIVEN to you as a ranger.

BoBoDaClown
05-22-2010, 03:48 AM
You're ranging. You're not close enough to be hit by melee.



Doesn't the ease of mass healing negate much of the ranged is 'safer' argument. If they get zapped/hit etc, they aren't in mass cure range?

I actually have never played a ranged charcter... so could be talking out my ass...

Hutoth
05-22-2010, 05:33 AM
My 2 cents:

How about any or all of the following?

1. For point blank ranged attacks, raise the crit threat range by 1 and raise the crit multiplier by 1.

Why?

a) Makes for some fun gameplay in-close, bouncing around trying not to get hit while pulling off some cool point blank "through-his-eye" goodness.

b) Makes Ranged Weapons more appealing as an option, rather than the present situation where they are broadly either a non-essential tool for specific situations only or you are an Arcane Archer/ other perfectly specced range-user.
2. Consider also doing this for all missile weapons anyway, or just increasing the crit multiplier by 1, leaving threat ranges as they are... (this would stack with #1)

Why?

a) Missile weapons are deadly IRL, but seriously weak in DDO. IRL: If an arrow/ bolt gets a critical hit on you, that generally means incap and death. In game it's a nuisance. A little extra crit damage will make them slightly more dangerous.

b) Easy to implement, ups the power of single shots.


3. Add an Aimed Shot combat ability that increases the critical threat range and multiplier on ranged attacks.

It should work like a spell with a very long casting time, i.e. the shot is taken at the end of the casting time.
It should be available to all like Trip.
Feats and Enhancements could improve its effectiveness.
The "casting time" of the shot is 1-2 seconds ish (it should be a big slow-down in attack speed) but should pay off with significantly increased damage (e.g. if it takes the time of 2 shots to use, it should put out at least 3 shots worth of DPS if you hit).


Why?

a) Taking careful aim and getting the mofo right between the eyes seems to be absent from the game, and missile weapon attacks should really be about rare hits doing horrible damage. (I admit there are ranged feats, but they aren't that realistic, and, as we know, they need some extra oomph, and IMO some variety too).

NB The slowness of the attack seems counter-intuitive considering the overall problem with ranged combat as it currently exists, but the idea is that the actual DPS output is increased using this ability (e.g. time of 2 shots=DPS potential of 3 shots or more)

That was my 2 cents....

Tumarek
05-22-2010, 06:47 AM
...
a) Missile weapons are deadly IRL, but seriously weak in DDO. IRL: If an arrow/ bolt gets a critical hit on you, that generally means incap and death. In game it's a nuisance. A little extra crit damage will make them slightly more dangerous.
...


Uhm no... Missle weapons are not as deadly in RL as melee weapons... Geez swords are 3 feet long steel basballbats with razorblades mounted on them. And thy have a pointy tip.

As for DDO. They problem with making ranged more effective is that if you do it just a little too much nobody will run around with melee... and that would be stupid

The only solution i could think of is that you cant shoot while running or while beeing attack in melee combat... that way ranged could only be used while the mobs are running at you. In this secanrion they could make the attackspeed the same as melee.

Artos_Fabril
05-22-2010, 12:08 PM
Uhm no... Missle weapons are not as deadly in RL as melee weapons... Geez swords are 3 feet long steel basballbats with razorblades mounted on them. And thy have a pointy tip.

Exactly! Why do you think no war has been fought with ranged weapons in over a century!?







...Oh wait, i have that backwards, don't I?

dunklezhan
05-22-2010, 12:38 PM
Uhm no... Missle weapons are not as deadly in RL as melee weapons... Geez swords are 3 feet long steel basballbats with razorblades mounted on them. And thy have a pointy tip.



First sentence, arguable either way. Second sentence.... not so much. Third sentence... on the money. Swords are 3 feet long baseball bats= true. Razorblades? Hardly ever. Swords were rarely sharp with a few notable exceptions (katanas, which shattered as soon as a nice heavy spanish sword parried them), swords were not really slicing weapons irl.

Its pernickity, but there you go. A well aimed missile weapon can kill in one shot... and so can a well placed blow from a melee weapon. They're equally deadly, hit for hit. A ranged weapon is probably slightly more deadly overall just because the person wielding it doesn't need to put themselves in harms way so much.

I digress. See AD's comments for why the OPs suggestions are probably a little overpowered. Though I agree there needs to be a rebalancing of ranged.

Failedlegend
05-22-2010, 12:38 PM
It makes me worry about the Mechanic changes since they won't really have the feats to keep up and limiting Deepwood Sniper to Rangers, which locks out a lot of the characters that could most use it.

Agreed when I saw the previews for the new mechanic upgrades I immediately starting working on a Rogue Mechanic w/ Repeaters (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=249262) and there's no way to get all the required feats AND pay the prereqs for the mechanic PrE without taking a mix of fighter and monk levels (ranger takes too many levels away to get the feats) and forget taking the third tier if it gets released I could barely fit in 13 rogue lvls let alone 18 (Requires at least 12 rogues levels for pre and 6 lvls of fighter for feats leaving 2 left over to splash monk or barb or add to fighter).

Note: I've never dealt with fighter levels and haven't leveled a rogue past 12 nor played any toon around a ranged concept so its quite a foreign concept to me....In other words I claim no expertise.

One thing that might help is add to tier 1 mechanic a passive ability called "Sniper Shot" or something that makes it so Sneak Attack damage can be dealt at any distance within the weapons range instead of the close range only junk (or just make that standard for all toons)

Ganolyn
05-22-2010, 12:48 PM
Uhm no... Missle weapons are not as deadly in RL as melee weapons...


Tell that to the Huns and the Mongols and the Assyrians and the English and David....

ExarKun77
05-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Hmmm... remember that scene in Indiana jones, who won between the scimitar and the pistol? ;)

So... i play an arcane archer, currently lvl 14, and of course i'm not the king of damage per second.
But it's ok, being a support doesn't hurt my ego.
I couldn't say if ranged combat is actually bugged (probably some lag issues related to that) or simply nerfed.
Because i remember hearing on an episode of DDOcast that ranged combat had been improved before, and the game had become almost a FPS. And i don't think i really want this for DnD.

However, ranged combat needs a lot of feats compared to the KING style TWF, and i think improvements should be made on this.
Or prestige enhancements details: for example, i barely use true strike. And i haven't unlocked the imbue fearsome arrows, but i doubt it will be usefull at all.