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TheJusticar
05-21-2010, 09:51 PM
I've been playing this game for circa three years now and I've seen a dramatic veer toward the "high number" game. And I know it might be way too late to fix, but I'd really appreciate if devs could muse about this issue in their coffee break time :D

Trash mobs/minions with 5-10K HPs, Bosses with 50K+ HPs and other nonsense like that. I personally don't buy the "PnP was desinged for 4-5 PCs, not 12" argument because it's the same nonsense in 6-man instances AND the numbers aren't multiplied by, say, 3 or 4. No, some NPC HPs are multiplied 50-fold. Nothing to do with making it a challenge, everything to do with excessive magic available to PCs.


We have GS items ML11, GS Weaps: ML12 and some out there ML8! lvl2 PCs dual wielding +2/3 Icy Burst of PG (some times yet another elemental burst on top of that), PC AC in the 100s, it is mundane to see a raging/buffed barb breaking through 1K HP, Casters with mental abilities above 40 also common place and of course ML9 +6 stat items. Any DM worth their salt would scuff at those numbers. Truth is, most GS weaps should be ML20 and the items ML17-19. When you have a weapon that still rocks on epic setting that you can use at lvl11-12 you know there's something wrong with the game design and planning. Adding Icy Burst recipe to weaps should've increased their ML by 4. But I guess it's all about marketing. PCs see five numbers (i.e. a + b +c + d + e) on top of a mob's head on a crit and "omg I'm a DPS beast this is so cool omg omg omg" completely forgetting that such weapon is in direct violation of 3.5 ML rules which this game is supposed to be based on (don't say house rule, pls, no group would ever play with such lax ML requirements).

Of course, this is a self-perpetuating vicious cycle thing because 1)they'll balance (i.e. inflate) HPs so that dual burst of PG 'peshes won't kill them in 1/2 attack sequence which royally screws the "have-nots" since they don't have such formidable weapons at their disposal. Then peeps will complain that mobs have too many HPs, devs will add more powerful weaps and so has gone the story so far.

On top of that you have the enhancement system which in the case of arcane casters brings their levels of damage bursts to absurd levels. In the case of melees you can get so-called PrEs with relatively minimal perquisites that are absolutely overpowered as well.

I, for one, would not mind if you either increase the ML dramatically (of GS items/weaps) to reflect their awesome power and remove stacking elemental bursts from Risia upgraded weapons while at the same time taming down NPC HPs to a less stratospheric levels. The net effect should be a more balanced game. This would bring this game a lot closer to its roots. I know some people love seeing numbers flying all over the place and get a kick out of it and I'm sure they would oppose this petition. However, for many people this would be a refreshing change where player skill and group tactics come forth more (i.e. almost required for success) as opposed to have a game overly dependent on gear and items and all the raids and quest are beaten by brute force.

/soap_box

Just for the sake of disclosure: I do own several multi-burst lowbie weaps and all my toons are and have been GS'd out for some time

Aspenor
05-21-2010, 09:57 PM
I hate to say it but there are a lot of people that would disagree with you strongly about the availability of magic weapons. Just to make melee characters viable in PnP I make sure they have better weapons than are available in this game. The Epic Sword of Shadow would be considered a piece of junk in a lot of my campaigns, it's really only the starting point for what would give a melee character the ability to make a difference compared to a caster. Tack on inflicting negative levels with every strike, and a few other Su abilities or SLA's and then you've got a decent level 20 weapon.

Green Steel, with its lack of any meaningful Su or SLA isn't really all that great, either.

hydra_ex
05-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Unfortunately, I think its too late, but I do completely agree with you.

There are any number of reasons you can ascribe to our situation - caster power pre-mod 6, increasing to-hits on successive attacks, but what matters is that, as you said, DDO, has become a game of high numbers on the one hand, in terms of player and weapon stats, and small numbers on the other, in terms of that little extra +3 dmg from the FB III set bonus to round the character off.

DDO has become a grind with inflated stats to achieve a small increase in DPS, sp efficiency, hp, etc. Its still fun, but if everything could be redone, how much more fun could DDO become?

I do however loathe your comparison to pnp. Any argument based off of pnp, to matter how pertinent it may seem, is to me, simply completely invalid.

fatherpirate
05-21-2010, 10:37 PM
well there are a couple of ways to astedically fix it.

my suggestion would be to change how various 'trash' mobs look based on thier lvl

a lvl 1 kobald should look like a nusance...it is a nusance
a lvl 10 kobald should look far more dangerous...bigger, better equipt, uglier ! (if that is possible)
a lvl 20 kobald should look like a nightmare, human sized, smart, decked out in powerful tribal magic

basically, if a kobald/orc/undead is sporting 10,000 hp, it should LOOK like its got 10k hp

that is just me

vVAnjilaVv
05-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Being a "have not" in this game doesn't last that long really...as compared to other games I have played.

Here it's just a matter making it to level 12-14 and you can already easily start twinking lowbie alts.......add to that also being able to ransack end reward lists with no cost super fast casual runs and your with great gear or a lot of plat to buy the stuff in no time.

Honestly making it out of "have not" mode in this game is absurdly easy. I have played games where it literally takes months or years to get to that point, this game it takes like 1-2 months.

osirisisis
05-21-2010, 11:04 PM
I've been playing this game for circa three years now and I've seen a dramatic veer toward the "high number" game. And I know it might be way too late to fix, but I'd really appreciate if devs could muse about this issue in their coffee break time :D

Trash mobs/minions with 5-10K HPs, Bosses with 50K+ HPs and other nonsense like that. I personally don't buy the "PnP was desinged for 4-5 PCs, not 12" argument because it's the same nonsense in 6-man instances AND the numbers aren't multiplied by, say, 3 or 4. No, some NPC HPs are multiplied 50-fold. Nothing to do with making it a challenge, everything to do with excessive magic available to PCs.


We have GS items ML11, GS Weaps: ML12 and some out there ML8! lvl2 PCs dual wielding +2/3 Icy Burst of PG (some times yet another elemental burst on top of that), PC AC in the 100s, it is mundane to see a raging/buffed barb breaking through 1K HP, Casters with mental abilities above 40 also common place and of course ML9 +6 stat items. Any DM worth their salt would scuff at those numbers. Truth is, most GS weaps should be ML20 and the items ML17-19. When you have a weapon that still rocks on epic setting that you can use at lvl11-12 you know there's something wrong with the game design and planning. Adding Icy Burst recipe to weaps should've increased their ML by 4. But I guess it's all about marketing. PCs see five numbers (i.e. a + b +c + d + e) on top of a mob's head on a crit and "omg I'm a DPS beast this is so cool omg omg omg" completely forgetting that such weapon is in direct violation of 3.5 ML rules which this game is supposed to be based on (don't say house rule, pls, no group would ever play with such lax ML requirements).

Of course, this is a self-perpetuating vicious cycle thing because 1)they'll balance (i.e. inflate) HPs so that dual burst of PG 'peshes won't kill them in 1/2 attack sequence which royally screws the "have-nots" since they don't have such formidable weapons at their disposal. Then peeps will complain that mobs have too many HPs, devs will add more powerful weaps and so has gone the story so far.

On top of that you have the enhancement system which in the case of arcane casters brings their levels of damage bursts to absurd levels. In the case of melees you can get so-called PrEs with relatively minimal perquisites that are absolutely overpowered as well.

I, for one, would not mind if you either increase the ML dramatically (of GS items/weaps) to reflect their awesome power and remove stacking elemental bursts from Risia upgraded weapons while at the same time taming down NPC HPs to a less stratospheric levels. The net effect should be a more balanced game. This would bring this game a lot closer to its roots. I know some people love seeing numbers flying all over the place and get a kick out of it and I'm sure they would oppose this petition. However, for many people this would be a refreshing change where player skill and group tactics come forth more (i.e. almost required for success) as opposed to have a game overly dependent on gear and items and all the raids and quest are beaten by brute force.

/soap_box

Just for the sake of disclosure: I do own several multi-burst lowbie weaps and all my toons are and have been GS'd out for some time

Great post /signed except for the risia crafting i like that because it gave random loot a little desperately need help and value again.

As for Green Steel I say we take this grossly overpowered perversion of the 3.5 crafting rule set and put it all in a pile and burn it (IE completely remove all Green Steal from the game.) and that's not bias I own 9 teir 3's. Ya like that's going to happen or how about at least just a step in the right direction like I mentioned here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248569) in #30

As for the mobs with inflated HP. How about this. One thing I always wondered is how come the mobs get so little attacks per round and we get so many. What if the mobs attacks per round doubled but there hit points were cut in half? To bring there attacks per round closer to ours. Of course its not the same thing. One is I think it would make the game more challenging in that clerics would have to react twice as fast. It would open more doors for blocking, tumbling away and running away from combat. Just a thought I'd love to play test it. I know I'm so tried of mindless DPS things, I think some duck, dodge and weave would add some spice to the game for the melees on the front line.

fatherpirate
05-21-2010, 11:16 PM
what I think the OP was hinting at is.....orcs are only suposed to be so tough...not gods.

the company does this to save money, it is easier to make uber orcs than pull in an all new more powerful
mob race.

I say, bring in some new mob races and as they do, cut back the current ones until they
fit in the lvl bracket they where made for.

do it over time as they have free resources.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-21-2010, 11:50 PM
I agree with the OP.
I think DDO is an attempt to bring PnP DnD to 'life' on your computer, despite what anyone says about the inapplicability of arguments based on one to the other.
It just doesn't do the job, though. I had a 3.5ed Fighter 20 whose best weapon was a +3 longsword, and had 130 hp, and I still felt powerful as all hell. My 4fighter/1rogue in DDO has almost that many HP, and a pair of +2 longswords.
My PnP char did 12-26 points of damage per round on a hit. My DDO char does 24-45 per second, not counting ever-present buffs and a critical hit every 3-4 seconds. I don't even know how many times I've solo'd Kobold Assault on hard (Yes, I died a few times, but still).

A character with 25 strength would be ridiculous, let alone one with 3 or 4 stats that high, yet I'm seeing that left and right in high lvl characters.

I think magic should be much rarer, and I wish they'd used the original cast-and-forget spellcasting system. All they'd have to do to tweak that system enough to be viable in an MMO is boost up the number of spells per rest a magic-user can cast, shorten casting times a bit, and let the player's own ability to quickly target a mob, toggle out of mouselook and click a spell to cast make up the difference. Wise players would quickly learn to memorize useful spells multiple times, not only for practical purposes in-game, but also to limit the number of clicky menus they have to have open.

All in all, it feels much like any other MMO I've played with regards to scaling, and I'd prefer it to feel more like PnP.

Angelus_dead
05-22-2010, 12:06 AM
Trash mobs/minions with 5-10K HPs, Bosses with 50K+ HPs and other nonsense like that. I personally don't buy the "PnP was desinged for 4-5 PCs, not 12" argument because it's the same nonsense in 6-man instances AND the numbers aren't multiplied by, say, 3 or 4. No, some NPC HPs are multiplied 50-fold. Nothing to do with making it a challenge, everything to do with excessive magic available to PCs.
The fact that those items are there is not a problem. The idea that they're "overpowered" is arbitrary. That available power in an RPG would increase over time is an inevitable convention of the genre.

What is a problem is the inequality in how characters of X level can obtain those items.

Zuldar
05-22-2010, 12:14 AM
I think magic should be much rarer, and I wish they'd used the original cast-and-forget spellcasting system. All they'd have to do to tweak that system enough to be viable in an MMO is boost up the number of spells per rest a magic-user can cast, shorten casting times a bit, and let the player's own ability to quickly target a mob, toggle out of mouselook and click a spell to cast make up the difference. Wise players would quickly learn to memorize useful spells multiple times, not only for practical purposes in-game, but also to limit the number of clicky menus they have to have open.


I wouldn't mind seeing the recharge variant from the unearthed arcana, this way casters could cast throughout a quest, but only a few spells per actual encounter. As a side effect it would solve the "wall of fire is overpowered" issue since a caster could only cast one every so often.

CrosisBlackwing
05-22-2010, 12:20 AM
I agree in most part to the OP, but that just isn't the way we can play DDO.

Spells deal upwards of 1000s of damage a hit, and Barbs can crit for over 500 or higher damage, DDO is very Melee Focused because of the HP scaling, and to bring it back to its roots, you would really need a complete overhaul of the game, with a nerf-bat that is the size of The Stormreaver...

Attack Speed needs to come down to reasonable levels (Have you seen how quickly a THF twitch is?)- This allows you to gauge how quickly a mob dies.
Items and Enhancements that boost effectiveness needs to be scaled down [40%+(50%-75%) with 20% chance to crit for x2.75]- This brings it more in line with non-theoretical playing.
Ability Scores need to be at more moderate levels, a 70 Str Barbarian Jumps 10 ft into the air (So his/her feet are above a basketball rim, and over 40 ft long with a running start.) a 40 Int Wizard would make Stephen Hawking look like a 3 yr old in an intellectual debate. -These are just over the top and laughable at the range they are at really.
Minimum Level of Most Gear should be increased, level 4 charatcers don't have +3 weapons, and 4 Ability +2 items- Items are more in PnP range
Monsters need to attack "faster" or at a larger range (To prevent hit-and-run tactics that would be associated with lower attack speeds and worse gear)- This is dangerous because player gear is worse.
Monsters have less HP (To bring it back to PnP range)- If players can abuse AI and reach and such, this is a bad change, but more in line with PnP

But these changes really are not DDO, to me, the game would be boring in alot of ways, it is no longer a fast paced thing, more of a turn based system. (Which irks me) IMO DDO is not close to PnP except in name, and thats how it should stay.

As an aside I have a PnP character that will deal upwards of 500 Damage a round with melee attacks (Level 16- Frenzied Beserker- Semi Optimized), and also ones that are more in line with true PnP that deal 100 a round. So it is really all a matter of how much you want to match an aspect of PnP.

Ghoste
05-22-2010, 12:29 AM
Youre making an assumption here: that being that Turbine does not want to drag out everything you do in game as much as possible so that youll play longer and keep subscribing. They dont like when you get bored and start looking for other things to do, as I have.
http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/matrix26.jpg
Turbine: Powered by their Fans

Uryamore
05-22-2010, 12:32 AM
I think magic should be much rarer,
On a preference issue, I disagree with the general theme of this thread, but this one point deserves a specific answer.

Eberron is not a low magic setting. Eberron is a setting where many individuals can craft powerful magic items, like the lightning rail, without a single level of any casting class.

The subject of a Shavarath invasion being a level 12-20 storyline and having no change in the min level requirements as the gear grows from blanks to epic is a different subject I am not decided on.

Mojo
05-22-2010, 12:48 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.

Mister_Peace
05-22-2010, 01:07 AM
Equipment does not have a minimum level in D&D. Instead, there is a recommended wealth for a party's level.

Oh, and Mojo - a kobold has a number of hit points based on how many levels of Rogue he or she has. :P

tomfar72
05-22-2010, 01:14 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.

/This

vVAnjilaVv
05-22-2010, 08:18 AM
As so many people have pointed out in the past, this is DDO....not PnP D&D.....I know the game is based off of D&D....but it's like going to see a movie that was based on a true story.......usually the movie is an extremely over-exxagerated version of what really happened.....because that's what sells.

A lot of the newer crowd of DDO players have probably never even touched PnP....they are looking for a game that is like other MMO's on the market....honestly I don't think a truer to PnP version of DDO would sell all that well.

Turbine keeps in mind what a majority of the playerbase wants....that's how you make money.

TheJusticar
05-22-2010, 09:14 AM
As for the mobs with inflated HP. How about this. One thing I always wondered is how come the mobs get so little attacks per round and we get so many. What if the mobs attacks per round doubled but there hit points were cut in half? To bring there attacks per round closer to ours. Of course its not the same thing. One is I think it would make the game more challenging in that clerics would have to react twice as fast. It would open more doors for blocking, tumbling away and running away from combat. Just a thought I'd love to play test it. I know I'm so tried of mindless DPS things, I think some duck, dodge and weave would add some spice to the game for the melees on the front line.[/COLOR]

Yup. Combat in this game has turned into hack-slash-heal. No strategy whatsoever. I don't blame the players, because it's in the nature of the game (yes, even in PnP haxxor players look for the easiest way to blow through a dungeon). I blame the DM (in this case, Turbine) for allowing the game to devolve and reduce itself to this brute force mechanic. The game is so hopelessly geared toward this mechanic that I think that if they were to add PrC like Swashbucklers and other "intelligent" melee PrCs soon enough they too will be beating on Horoth/Arri from behind just like every other non-tank melee. Why? 'cause with their over inflated HPs would take a year of RL time to finish them up with a poke here, tumble, jump over, trip and other colorful combat tactics.

TheJusticar
05-22-2010, 09:17 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.

+1.

Excellent reduction.

vVAnjilaVv
05-22-2010, 09:44 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.

D&D was played by small groups of people and DM's that could change things and randomize on a spur of the moment.

DDO is a computer internet MMO which much establish a consistency that allows it to run for all people playing at the same time.

IMO, you can't even really compare the two...they are worlds apart.

iamsamoth0
05-22-2010, 10:05 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.
+1 here as well. Although it would be a much tougher game. I seem to remember playing Black Sun with that 4hp mage(When they were still referred to as Magic-Users).
I can't say exactly what would help the game. But I like the argument.


Yup. Combat in this game has turned into hack-slash-heal. No strategy whatsoever. I don't blame the players, because it's in the nature of the game (yes, even in PnP haxxor players look for the easiest way to blow through a dungeon). I blame the DM (in this case, Turbine) for allowing the game to devolve and reduce itself to this brute force mechanic. The game is so hopelessly geared toward this mechanic that I think that if they were to add PrC like Swashbucklers and other "intelligent" melee PrCs soon enough they too will be beating on Horoth/Arri from behind just like every other non-tank melee. Why? 'cause with their over inflated HPs would take a year of RL time to finish them up with a poke here, tumble, jump over, trip and other colorful combat tactics.
And this one 'cause I enjoyed the sig.

Vordax
05-22-2010, 10:30 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing, yet for some reason the designers thought it was a good idea to move away from the established rules.

Ask a D&D player, how much does a Longsword do, he'll say 1d8. A DDO player will say "What level" or "What powers/feats/etc."

Ask a D&D player, how many Hit Points does a kobold have, he'll say 1-4 (half a hit die). DDO players will say, "what level?"


D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.

So when playing PnP you have never ran into a kobold with class levels?

Vordax

osirisisis
05-22-2010, 12:16 PM
as So Many People Have Pointed Out In The Past, This Is Ddo....not Pnp D&d.....i Know The Game Is Based Off Of D&d....but It's Like Going To See A Movie That Was Based On A True Story.......usually The Movie Is An Extremely Over-exxagerated Version Of What Really Happened.....because That's What Sells.

A Lot Of The Newer Crowd Of Ddo Players Have Probably Never Even Touched Pnp....they Are Looking For A Game That Is Like Other Mmo's On The Market....

i Dont Know About This, First How Can Ddo Do Any Better Then Other Mmo's If It Just Follows In There Foot Steps, I Dont Think Grind And Bind Burn Is Working For Population Growth... Which Is A Follower Type "other Mmo" Idea.

Honestly I Don't Think A Truer To Pnp Version Of Ddo Would Sell All That Well.

i'd Disagree With This Also In That Ad&d Held 35 Years Of Great Success And The More This Game Moves Away From That Like "shroud Craft And Binded Grind Burn" The Move I Watch Population Drop, Not That I'll Not Saying Some Change And Evolution Is Not A Good Thing, But These Things Can Be Gauged By Population Increase Or Drop.

Turbine Keeps In Mind What A Majority Of The Playerbase Wants....that's How You Make Money.

how Does Turbine Truely Know What The Population Wants? Do They Really Monitor These Fourms That Well? Even If They Did Would That Be A True Poll? Lots Of People I'm Sure Play For X Amount Of Time And Leave Never Post On The Fourms Once. From What I See The Only Thing Turbine Really Has To Look At Is "we Did This And Population Went Up" And This Happened And Population Went Down I Would Think.



88

vVAnjilaVv
05-22-2010, 04:37 PM
i Dont Know About This, First How Can Ddo Do Any Better Then Other Mmo's If It Just Follows In There Foot Steps, I Dont Think Grind And Bind Burn Is Working For Population Growth... Which Is A Follower Type "other Mmo" Idea.

I know you have been around this game for quite a while.......so do you not remember how this game was about as good as dead before they went F2P and made the game more solo friendly.

I'm not saying they have to be exactly like the other games, but there are essential things they are going to need for people to even consider playing this game.

This is post EU times...not the pre-MOD 9 that never happened waiting period.

This game is still standing probably for one reason, because they added in features of more popular MMO's. Even before the MOD 9 fiasco...this games populations was small, not near enough to keep it going.

vVAnjilaVv
05-22-2010, 04:40 PM
i'd Disagree With This Also In That Ad&d Held 35 Years Of Great Success And The More This Game Moves Away From That Like "shroud Craft And Binded Grind Burn" The Move I Watch Population Drop.

Once again...this is an MMO...not PnP.....your comparing apples and oranges...sure they may both be fruits...but their taste and contents are not even remotely close.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-22-2010, 07:37 PM
A lot of the newer crowd of DDO players have probably never even touched PnP....they are looking for a game that is like other MMO's on the market....honestly I don't think a truer to PnP version of DDO would sell all that well.

Turbine keeps in mind what a majority of the playerbase wants....that's how you make money. That's not exactly untrue, but you paint DDO as nothing but WoW which seems free, but requires you to spend money anyways.

When DDO launched, that rationale paints it as nothing more than WoW with a different name.

Both of those are very bad marketing models, especially after DDO has survived as long as it has for two reasons: it's F2P and it's Dungeons & Dragons Online. So far, I've seen Drow, Dragons, Fighters, Dual-Wielding Rangers, Mind Flayers, The Party/Instance system and many many other things which differentiate it from other MMOs, and without exception, those differences are of a sort which makes this more like PnP.

The truth is that Turbine is trying to walk the line between being true to PnP and still having a game with mass appeal. My opinion is that they could do a better job of the latter by doing a better job of the former. Right now, if someone wants to actually role-play online, they log into Second Life, not DDO.

vVAnjilaVv
05-22-2010, 08:55 PM
The truth is that Turbine is trying to walk the line between being true to PnP and still having a game with mass appeal. My opinion is that they could do a better job of the latter by doing a better job of the former. Right now, if someone wants to actually role-play online, they log into Second Life, not DDO.

When they were trying to be more true to the former this games population paled in comparison to what it is now. DDO pretty much is a WoW clone, it's repetitive, it's just that it's more drawn out, which makes replay value of dungeons and quests more desirable.

Grind is part of every MMO, it's just here they make it more interesting and fun....but it's still there.

I just think people are asking to much....Turbine barely survived....and they are living now because they are catering more to mass appeal than PnP.

bree22
05-22-2010, 09:00 PM
Just my 2 cents.

I played pnp for about 2 days in jr high school 30yrs ago. I dont even remember it. I am not familiar with the 3.5 rules. My only experience with d&d is baldurs gate I & II 11-13 yrs ago and I did not play online. I controlled my whole party. I leveled a pally and ranger to end game to achieve my birth right as a God. I did this the first time using NPCs as my party members and the 2nd time I made all my toons for the party. It took me 3 to 4 months from start to finish on 1st toon playing 30hrs week. And a little over half that time on 2nd toon. Now knowing what I had to do made it faster to do. The reason why I give you this break down is to know more of where I am coming from. I join in dec 09 and started really playing ddo in jan 10. I have 2 toons level 18 and have just started my greensteel weapons. I personally like the current version of ddo. It is a hack and slash d&d game with some crafting to ubber gear. It give a nice twist and fun to just run through and kill. now it is my first run through and I have not TRd yet or done epic content.

Ok now for my solutions. I feel it is simple. just make a server (world) that is dedicated to the 3.5. No crafting and special effect stacking. Another server for a true story line like baulders gate, where you follow the story line (i think this a static group concept not to sure). This would allow for you to pick your style and cater to everyone. Now I am not a computer guys so I guess there could be programing issues but I would think that it should be possible.

I personally would love to play this type of style. Kind of like baldurs gate with a story line and based on decision made in game determined what happens next. I would love to play with a group that works like this. I think u can kind of do this now but really not story line feature. In short I was going to buy nevernights or something like that because it was close to baldurs gate format but stumble on ddo and I have enjoyed playing and making friends so far on ddo. which i feel i would never have done playing a story line game. or the very least not enjoyed it as much.

osirisisis
05-22-2010, 10:30 PM
I know you have been around this game for quite a while.......so do you not remember how this game was about as good as dead before they went F2P and made the game more solo friendly.

I'm not saying they have to be exactly like the other games, but there are essential things they are going to need for people to even consider playing this game.

This is post EU times...not the pre-MOD 9 that never happened waiting period.

This game is still standing probably for one reason, because they added in features of more popular MMO's. Even before the MOD 9 fiasco...this games populations was small, not near enough to keep it going.

I can agree and am glad they did add free to play and more solo friendly. To me that's different then adopting bind and grind from other mmo's in some way.

I think also at the same time the reason this game went straight down and they had to give it away for free to save was from also adopting other MMO ideas like the "binding" and that gross bind and grind crafting system that burnt everyone out so bad players just left and some have not come back. So it works both ways.

Free samples and making your game playable if theres no one to play with is a no brainer.
Trying to bind your players to the game by binding there clone and drone grind to them and expecting them to be entertained is a dumb Idea. And that should be a no brainer also.

Rakian_Knight
05-24-2010, 04:13 AM
I would love to see DDO turn into a game that promoted smarter combat instead of the hack and run style that is only promoted by the 26 CR 20 Skeletons with 2,000 hp each against a full party of level 15 to 17 players.

However who suffers most from this system is the casters and healers, expecally the healers. In pnp dungeons and dragons, the cleric could turn any prepared spell that they had prepared and turned it into a cure spell (if they were good or neutral) or inflict (if neutral or evil). This ment that a cleric could cast and deal damage instead of standing in the back and healing damage that everyone expects and yells at you if you don't. Now with the spell point system instead of preparing spells per day like in pnp the spontanous casting didn't have a purpose anymore.

However, in the case of casters, the spells didn't get the same upgrade that the monsters got. We still have spells that are high levels that only effect monsters with 150 hp for spells like symbol of death. What monster in DDO has under 500 hp by the time you get a 7th level spell?

I believe that the system is too far gone to come back now without literally flipping the game upside down and restarting it from the beginning so we are going to either accept it, try changing the 3.5 system to work around this, and enjoy the different experience or not play the game.

Again this is just my thoughts so don't feel the need to personally bash me.

~Rakian_Knight

Beethoven
05-24-2010, 09:24 AM
This comes back to something I've said for years. D&D was a successful game with 35 years of play and balancing ...

I could agree with your point if I knew of any PnP groups playing the same campaign and same characters for 35 years straight. I doubt, however, you'll find a lot of those.

Comparing DDO to PnP is neither fair or accurate. I don't know about anyone else, but during my PnP time we would usually meet only once a week (sometimes only once every two weeks), play for 5-6 hours and despite of it our campaigns would normally last only for a few months before we started fresh.

You take similar standards to DDO, play only once a week for 6 hours, focus on diversity of quests instead of repeating only the high xp/high reward ones, and start fresh every 6-8 months (and no moving funds or gear between toons) you probably never going to hit the epic grind or easily end up with multiple greensteels.

Similarly, if you have a PnP group that meets nearly every day for 4-6 hours, playing the same toons in the same campaign for 4+ years straight, their GM might too be tasked to come up with new stuff to keep people interested. I know I would.

Now, this doesn't even take into account other inequalities commonly found among MMO players; such as having the guy who plays only four hours or less a week and having the guy who who plays in excess of 40+ hours, different levels of maturity, different levels of fundamental game- and rules knowledge, entirely different play styles (roleplayers vs zergers), having people with hardware so decked out they could easily handle what Turbine throws at them and those use systems barely meeting the minimum requirements.

Then there is the difference of having an actual GM or no (even outside the bit where if your GM doesn't have time, you don't get to play). I am pretty sure we'd have Tolero, Tarant or any of our vet players actually play thrash mobs, things would be far more challenging, whether on epic or not. Heck, a gianthold oger in the hands of a player with good twitch skills is probably far more a scary thing than any of the current epic mobs.

I do agree that inflated mob hitpoints and blanket immunities is getting old quick, but I do disagree that simply saying it should be more like PnP is a workable solution either. I mean, ask a PnP player for about how many hours he gets to play his character before they normally start fresh (with all accumulated equipment gone too).

Uryamore
05-24-2010, 09:53 AM
D&D had consistent rules. DDO does not.
A little late to comment-snipe this post, but I hadn't realized earlier.

D&D had consistent rules, when your grouped stopped buying more suppliments and had a firm web of house rules, until that time they were anything but predictable. Do not even try to counter with a "my group didn't have house rules", because yes you did. In any rpg that allows for creative player responses, the source material will be either incomplete or take a large library just to hold all the tables cited in the text.
Others pointed out monsters with classes already.

As for a "longsword" doing 1d8 damage, it does that in DDO also, it's when you start adding descriptors that the damage changes, as it does in pnp also. Ever since Planescape, the various outerplanar metals have had interesting effects on equipment, even moreso than a "simple" adamantine shield.

And after thinking about the greensteel power creep, I think a good solution (that it is probably too late to implement, both for code invasiveness and player approval) would be if equipment could have minimum levels on specific parts of the enhancement. So a greenswteel weapon's tier 1 abilities would be level 12 min, tier 2 maybe 14, tier 3 16 (or 15/18 if those seem too low). This would also work for those TRers who accidentally epiced all their nice level 8 gear, a bloodstone would be a +6 until the player hit 20, then it goes back to +8.
The other side-benefit is a system like this could allow for a proper holy avenger enhancement type. Anyone who can wield it gets some bonus, but the big boosts are paladin-linked and cannot be UMDed.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-25-2010, 02:38 AM
When they were trying to be more true to the former this games population paled in comparison to what it is now. DDO pretty much is a WoW clone, it's repetitive, it's just that it's more drawn out, which makes replay value of dungeons and quests more desirable.

Grind is part of every MMO, it's just here they make it more interesting and fun....but it's still there.

I just think people are asking to much....Turbine barely survived....and they are living now because they are catering more to mass appeal than PnP.

It seems like you're saying the reason the game survived is because it became more MMO-like, but I personally disagree.
I think it survived because they whipped out a F2P option. I know quite a few people who play DDO and the only one of them with a VIP account is a millionaire. (Literally. He retired at 23.) I could afford to be a VIP without batting an eyelash, but it's just not worth it to me. I'd rather drop a few bucks here and there when I'm actively playing the game than pay fifteen bucks a month just to keep open the option of playing. I'd have never even considered playing DDO before it became F2P, and I can safely say the same for all of my friends. (Even the millionaire only got it because the rest of us did, too.)

Never underestimate the desire of a young American population for free fun.


There's one more thing I have to say: Look at the popularity and diversity in Second Life. My retiree uncle uses it, as does my mechanic, my family's pastor plays it... Several sovereign nations have Second Life Embassies.
Role playing and virtual worlds are extraordinarily popular.

Artos_Fabril
05-25-2010, 03:01 AM
There's one more thing I have to say: Look at the popularity and diversity in Second Life. My retiree uncle uses it, as does my mechanic, my family's pastor plays it... Several sovereign nations have Second Life Embassies.
Role playing and virtual worlds are extraordinarily popular.
Can you name another successful virtual world/online role playing game? I haven't heard of one. So if you want that experience, you go to Second Life, I doubt there is room for a niche game coming late to the party.

Much as I'd like to see more actual role playing in my MMORPGs, the things that currently pass for role playing in MMOGs are of no interest to me. It's sad, because online games offer some very promising possibilities for actual role playing When your character is the only way people interact with you, options appear that you wouldn't even have in a tabletop game, where you're inevitably saddled with preconceptions derived from the physical world.

TheJusticar
05-25-2010, 09:13 AM
And after thinking about the greensteel power creep, I think a good solution (that it is probably too late to implement, both for code invasiveness and player approval) would be if equipment could have minimum levels on specific parts of the enhancement. So a greenswteel weapon's tier 1 abilities would be level 12 min, tier 2 maybe 14, tier 3 16 (or 15/18 if those seem too low). This would also work for those TRers who accidentally epiced all their nice level 8 gear, a bloodstone would be a +6 until the player hit 20, then it goes back to +8.
The other side-benefit is a system like this could allow for a proper holy avenger enhancement type. Anyone who can wield it gets some bonus, but the big boosts are paladin-linked and cannot be UMDed.


This would be a great idea, IMO. Just too late and too code costly to implement, sadly. :(

fatherpirate
05-26-2010, 06:38 AM
I think it boils down to this..

D+D PnP is a group activity, DMs rarely run solo adventures.

DDO has a large portion of the player population that solo's part or most of the time.

For that to work, players need more HP, spells, power ect.. to effectively play and SURVIVE solo.
That is why DDO is magic and power rich.

Devonian
05-26-2010, 08:32 AM
You know, I strongly agree. Now I grant that eberron has more magic around, and accept that after the last war we should be swimming in military surplus magic weapons, but for magic to be magical it needs to be waited for.

Mobs have too many HP, driving the need to deal more damage, driving the need for ever inflated Mob HP to chalenge, driving the need for still greater damage...

Its the same with stats and the rest. I'd love a game where there was a move to make build/ play style more key, it looks like end game I'll be little more than a vehicle to carry my gear into battle though, and any fix by now would cause a revolt from long term subscribers I fear.

Angrygreek
05-26-2010, 08:37 AM
I agree wholeheartedly. I shook my head at the 'DM' that claimed that some epic weapon would be trash in his campaign (2nd or third post). I've been playing and DM-ing PNP for over 30 years, and have found that the best players (and the best games) prefer campaigns / settings where magic is special. A +1 longsword is a truly special item, as it should be. There is no way to turn back the clock, per se, but I would love to see a 'low magic' server.

PopeJual
05-26-2010, 08:42 AM
Equipment does not have a minimum level in D&D. Instead, there is a recommended wealth for a party's level.

Oh, and Mojo - a kobold has a number of hit points based on how many levels of Rogue he or she has. :P

Mostly because if the local big shots heard that a party of 1st level nothings had a gajillion plat worth of twinked items, they'd send their henchmen out to take it from the party. Or even show up themselves.

Think about how well even a super-equipped Greensteel weilding party of 1st level folks would fare against a buck naked 20th level Wiz/Sorc/Clr/FvS.

Gear is really important. Not being low level is important too. :)

DDO needs Minimum Levels on gear to keep at least some balance in the game because players' gear can't be stolen. At worst, it can be turned into tasty ham by roaming chaos balls.

fatherpirate
05-26-2010, 11:49 AM
the 3 things that seem to drive the need for uber gear is/are

mobs have damage resistance, when only a few things in D+D PnP should have it
mobs hit points do NOT match thier HD If the thing is a 2HD monster, that means 2-16 hp not 160 hp
mobs hit for amazing damage....kobalds tossing 8D lightening bolts ect.

I have no idea how they could effectively reduce the magic level without rewritting the entire game.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-26-2010, 04:16 PM
Can you name another successful virtual world/online role playing game? I haven't heard of one. So if you want that experience, you go to Second Life, I doubt there is room for a niche game coming late to the party.The problem with that logic is that you're assuming that SL is the end-all of virtual worlds.

It's merely the first, and it has a unique niche all it's own: Open Source content.

DDO can do much of what SL does without worrying about OS content, and appeal to an audience who might find the concept of SL appealing, but doesn't want to spend the time and energy to learn the programming needed to fully experience it.

Also, DDO could be a game version. SL is not a game, although it is a place for people to play. It has no storyline, it has no backstory, it has no combat mechanics (that I know of), it has no inherent competition between players... It's a virtual world, a perfect, complete sandbox. That's a niche, despite it's popularity.

SquelchHU
05-26-2010, 05:06 PM
I've been playing this game for circa three years now and I've seen a dramatic veer toward the "high number" game. And I know it might be way too late to fix, but I'd really appreciate if devs could muse about this issue in their coffee break time :D

Trash mobs/minions with 5-10K HPs, Bosses with 50K+ HPs and other nonsense like that. I personally don't buy the "PnP was desinged for 4-5 PCs, not 12" argument because it's the same nonsense in 6-man instances AND the numbers aren't multiplied by, say, 3 or 4. No, some NPC HPs are multiplied 50-fold. Nothing to do with making it a challenge, everything to do with excessive magic available to PCs.

I was with you up until this point.


We have GS items ML11, GS Weaps: ML12 and some out there ML8! lvl2 PCs dual wielding +2/3 Icy Burst of PG (some times yet another elemental burst on top of that), PC AC in the 100s, it is mundane to see a raging/buffed barb breaking through 1K HP, Casters with mental abilities above 40 also common place and of course ML9 +6 stat items. Any DM worth their salt would scuff at those numbers. Truth is, most GS weaps should be ML20 and the items ML17-19. When you have a weapon that still rocks on epic setting that you can use at lvl11-12 you know there's something wrong with the game design and planning. Adding Icy Burst recipe to weaps should've increased their ML by 4. But I guess it's all about marketing. PCs see five numbers (i.e. a + b +c + d + e) on top of a mob's head on a crit and "omg I'm a DPS beast this is so cool omg omg omg" completely forgetting that such weapon is in direct violation of 3.5 ML rules which this game is supposed to be based on (don't say house rule, pls, no group would ever play with such lax ML requirements).

However here is where you wrapped your train of argument around a tree.

Greensteel weapons technically have a level requirement of 12 yes. How many non TRs actually use them at those levels? Exactly. Now, how many lower level quests feature the massively inflated HP you mention? None. Not even on Elite.

So how many lower level quests have had mob HP inflated to compensate for uber low level gear? ZERO!

When do you start encountering the massively inflated HP totals? The Thirteenth Eclipse (level 17 raid) and on.

What is your brilliant suggestion? Make the uber gear that you claim leads to the need for massively inflated HP... level 17-20. This solves what exactly?

Why, nothing. Except for nerfing TRs, who get few benefits for the gain as is. And if some level 12 TRs can tear up CO6... I really don't care. And neither should you.

Now, as for low levels who have at best, +1 (element other than cold) icy burst weapons of PG at level 2 assuming race restriction? Well given that prior to Risia every vet just used the same weapon - the icy burst anyways, and they clearly didn't go changing anything then, why would another 1d6 suddenly make em change it now?

The rest of your points are exaggerations. Hitting an AC in the three digits is short term and only useful in theory. Not even Shade's barb breaks 1k without a highly situational set of buffs in a scenario where it doesn't really matter anyways (Reaver raid) so to call it mundane is laughable. They are closing on 1k though.

Casters with casting stats over 40 commonplace?

18 base, 5 levels, 3 enhancement, 2 racial, 6 item = 34 on a drow. Then there's tomes (1-4), litany (1), yugo pot (2), exceptional bonuses (3). Possible sure, common? Not so sure about that.

And +6 stat items at level 9? Yeah sure, if it's both RR and has the very rare condition that lowers ML by an additional 2. Otherwise it's 13. This, again is nothing new.


I, for one, would not mind if you either increase the ML dramatically (of GS items/weaps) to reflect their awesome power and remove stacking elemental bursts from Risia upgraded weapons while at the same time taming down NPC HPs to a less stratospheric levels. The net effect should be a more balanced game. This would bring this game a lot closer to its roots. I know some people love seeing numbers flying all over the place and get a kick out of it and I'm sure they would oppose this petition. However, for many people this would be a refreshing change where player skill and group tactics come forth more (i.e. almost required for success) as opposed to have a game overly dependent on gear and items and all the raids and quest are beaten by brute force.

And this is why your suggestion fails by your own standards. Enemy HP doesn't get high until high levels. So turning mid level items into high level items will not accomplish anything. Even if there seriously were non TRs running around with Greensteel at 12. And at high levels, most stuff will literally take 0 damage from icy burst, so it's really a non factor even if you're using lootgen weapons still.

What your suggestion does do is a placebo effect. You only think you're accomplishing something.

And even then, since the HP inflation started with the Shroud, and you need the Shroud for GS you can't even try and argue the HP inflation was because of GS, because clearly no one had it at first, and clearly people were able to get it.

Now. The only way your argument makes any sense at all is if you define 'inflated' as 'higher than in PnP'. And that is true, even at low levels. A CR 5 troll on some normal difficulty quest has more than 63 HP. But that's not due to an abundance of gear, since those quests were designed on game release, and no one had good gear then. That's due to the real time nature of the combat. In PnP, the Troll takes about 1-2 rounds of combat to take out. That's 6-12 seconds of game time, but is probably more like 6-12 minutes of real time.

Put a 63 HP Troll in DDO and since 'a round' is about 1 second it will probably never get an attack off and since it's real time it's just as quick to play out. So instead it has a higher number (not much higher though). And a slower attack speed, so it can fight back without annihilating you.

And the same logic applies to just about anything else level 16 or lower. Raise the HP just enough to compensate for real time, slow their attack rate down since most enemies would attack faster than PCs otherwise, and add some new stuff. Fire elementals casting fire spells instead of being just another melee type for example. That's about it.

So why does 17-20 stuff have more HP if not GS? Easy. Laziness.

Easiest way to see this is to look at the raids. Anything prior to Mod 6 has some sort of unique mechanic to it... however this mechanic also tends to make it so you only need x people, where x is much less than 12 and everyone else is not only unnecessary, but has nothing to really do at all!

Mod 6 on? They get everyone involved, but it's really just an auto attack fest. And in a way it's good it is, because the game started becoming so laggy that if they continued trying to make dynamic content it would fail because no one could stop lagging long enough to react to changing circumstances.

Epic mode? A lot of HP, and a whole lot of HP bypassing stuff gets blocked out. Laziness.

Edit:


I hate to say it but there are a lot of people that would disagree with you strongly about the availability of magic weapons. Just to make melee characters viable in PnP I make sure they have better weapons than are available in this game. The Epic Sword of Shadow would be considered a piece of junk in a lot of my campaigns, it's really only the starting point for what would give a melee character the ability to make a difference compared to a caster. Tack on inflicting negative levels with every strike, and a few other Su abilities or SLA's and then you've got a decent level 20 weapon.

Green Steel, with its lack of any meaningful Su or SLA isn't really all that great, either.

Well that's a different problem actually. But I've already discussed that with you, and the OP is way off in left field so I don't feel it's worthwhile to discuss again here. I do find it entertaining how many people doubt that Epic SoS would be complete and utter vendor trash in a PnP game, and how many people try and regard basic tools of the trade absolutely required to even show up in the game as 'special'. If you want special magic items you don't play a game that expects you to be a small christmas tree (PnP) to perform at par.

DDO? A bigger tree. :D

Artos_Fabril
05-26-2010, 07:03 PM
I do find it entertaining how many people doubt that Epic SoS would be complete and utter vendor trash in a PnP game, and how many people try and regard basic tools of the trade absolutely required to even show up in the game as 'special'. If you want special magic items you don't play a game that expects you to be a small christmas tree (PnP) to perform at par.
In PnP, it's entirely dependent on the level of the characters and the power level that your PCs enjoy. The last D20 tabletop campaign I played in ran for 3 years, and we retired it with level 13 characters (when we decided that the due to the d20 nature of the system, it wasn't doing what we wanted). We had a fair amount of broken wonk, but no character had greater than a +4 weapon, not that it mattered, since the DM was able to throw as little or as much of a challenge at us as was appropriate to the story arc, regardless of what form the challenge took. If your PCs needed +10 weapons with epic effects, and that was the osrt of game they enjoyed playing and you enjoyed running, it's only appropriate that you provide them with the items (or opportunity to get the items) that they need to succeed. Put the same item in a low-power campaign and it makes all the other characters wonder why they even bothered to show up for combat.

The problem with DDO is there's only one type of challenge: combat. Combat, furthermore, which doesn't balance on the fly for whatever party you bring. There's no need for a Face, a Skill character, a Sneak, and rarely a Trapsmith; what you need is a healer, and DPS, occasionally a tank is helpful. More often, however, you just get DPS who can perform without a tank.

Artos_Fabril
05-26-2010, 07:17 PM
The problem with that logic is that you're assuming that SL is the end-all of virtual worlds.Not quite, but being the first and biggest product of its type gives it a huge market advantage. In hardware or software terms, they call that an install base, in social networks there is a similar effect, though I don't know if they've given it its own name.

If Turbine, (or more likely whatever other developer WotC/Hasbro got to make this different game) puts out an exceptional product, the best they could hope for is to be the Mac to SL's windows.

Hafeal
05-26-2010, 07:23 PM
I agree with the sentiment.I also see the need in MMO play for the decisions the devs have made.

My thought and advice to the devs has been that the 'spread' of magic should have been lengthened out (e.g., +1 weapons at level 3 or 4). Make "masterwork' mean something.

The problem, imo, is that the game's decision maker's seem to believe that many new players would be turned off the game without the 'instant gratification' of a quick step by step ascendancy to better gear. I think this is a shame and underestimates what draws players to the game and devalues the concept of 'treasure' as a whole.

TheDjinnFor
05-26-2010, 07:58 PM
I do find it entertaining how many people doubt that Epic SoS would be complete and utter vendor trash in a PnP game, and how many people try and regard basic tools of the trade absolutely required to even show up in the game as 'special'. If you want special magic items you don't play a game that expects you to be a small christmas tree (PnP) to perform at par.

I do find it entertaining how some people believe that treating PnP like WoW is the only way to play it, and their way somehow supersedes all other playing styles.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-27-2010, 03:23 AM
Not quite, but being the first and biggest product of its type gives it a huge market advantage. In hardware or software terms, they call that an install base, in social networks there is a similar effect, though I don't know if they've given it its own name.

If Turbine, (or more likely whatever other developer WotC/Hasbro got to make this different game) puts out an exceptional product, the best they could hope for is to be the Mac to SL's windows.You're assuming that a complex, role-playing oriented DDO would be directly competing with SL.

I don't think it would. I think that where SL has and can maintain the create-your-own-anything niche that appeals to people who like modding and creating, DDO would steal away some of their role-playing base, and attract a whole new demographic that doesn't currently play any MMO or VW. Plus, there'd be plenty of the regular MMO crowd who either love the new experience, or just have to play because it's an MMO or because it's DnD.

Artos_Fabril
05-27-2010, 06:36 AM
BDW, I think we're getting off topic, check your messages.

Back to the original discussion:
DDO is a particular style of D&D game, full-on Monty Haul, hack and slash dungeon crawling.

Slapping the D20 system on an MMO and recycling the lore from a published campaign world was a way to generate instant recognition, but it's not exactly where D&D shines either.

The problem is, that's really the only kind of "RPG" that's ever been translated to an MMO, and it's what WotC was familiar with, what Hasbro was comfortable with, and what Turbine was capable of developing. It's not terribly innovative, instead it's well established form.

Greensteel is a result of compounding the problems of both the MMO and the D20 system. When it was released it was cap content, and gave players something to work towards that would eventually (based on the d20 SRD information or epic magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMagicItems.htm)) be epic weapons. And for the most part, greensteel is more epic than "epic" items in DDO.

When they raised the level cap from 16 to 20, there wasn't a lot they could do about the power level in the game. In other MMOs, when the level cap rises, either 90+% of previously level cap gear generally becomes trash either immediately, or at least before the new cap. In DDO they were locked in to the D20 system which doesn't tier power gains the way MMOs usually do after a level cap increase. Add to that that there are only 21 quests between the old cap and the new cap, so they didn't add much content that might make something other than GS optimal. Consider also that "epic" items are often worse than randomly generated loot (with a few notable exceptions).

Then, they let it go too long the way it was. If the ML on greensteel (at least tier 3) had been increased to 16 when they pushed the level cap up, the uproar would have been minimal, as most people who had tier 3 GS were 16 anyway. But, as SquelchHU notes, it wouldn't have fixed the issue of post 16 content being balanced with GS as an automatic assumption.

They did try the only mechanic in the system that would have been both (relatively) easy to implement and have some chance of invalidating the superiority of greensteel items is DR that they couldn't break... Which was tried half-heartedly with the Dreaming Dark with DR/crystal, but only on some mob types, and only in those quests.

SquelchHU
05-27-2010, 08:03 AM
In PnP, it's entirely dependent on the level of the characters and the power level that your PCs enjoy. The last D20 tabletop campaign I played in ran for 3 years, and we retired it with level 13 characters (when we decided that the due to the d20 nature of the system, it wasn't doing what we wanted). We had a fair amount of broken wonk, but no character had greater than a +4 weapon, not that it mattered, since the DM was able to throw as little or as much of a challenge at us as was appropriate to the story arc, regardless of what form the challenge took. If your PCs needed +10 weapons with epic effects, and that was the osrt of game they enjoyed playing and you enjoyed running, it's only appropriate that you provide them with the items (or opportunity to get the items) that they need to succeed. Put the same item in a low-power campaign and it makes all the other characters wonder why they even bothered to show up for combat.

The problem with DDO is there's only one type of challenge: combat. Combat, furthermore, which doesn't balance on the fly for whatever party you bring. There's no need for a Face, a Skill character, a Sneak, and rarely a Trapsmith; what you need is a healer, and DPS, occasionally a tank is helpful. More often, however, you just get DPS who can perform without a tank.

You are missing the point.

See, here's the thing.

DDO is an MMO. As such, it's all about the numbers and consequently people tend to focus heavily upon those numbers.

Yet despite the fact there is a greater >focus< on numerical mastery in DDO than in the original source material, there is less of a >need< for it. Yes, I said it. D&D requires more optimization than DDO.

DDO is actually fairly forgiving of mistakes. If you roll a low con gimp, the best thing to do is to start over of course. But if you stand too close to the melee, what will happen is you'll get smacked once or twice, and then you'll move to a safer position.

Do the same thing in D&D and you'll probably have a dead character. Hell, going anywhere near any one of large array of level appropriate enemies can be classified as one of those sorts of mistakes. As in, one enemy can easily, easily one round you. Unless you have some awesome defenses, which most characters don't. No, AC is not a viable defense.

With that said in D&D you will have less overall equipment. At level 13 you only have 110k worth of stuff... and a +4 weapon is over a quarter that by itself.

But see, optimization is making the most of limited resources. So you have to make sure every last copper is boosting your numbers to the max, because the game expects you to do this in order to have the expected numbers.

In other words, for your level 13 character to perform as a level 13 character, you need to not only research every purchase, but then make those exact purchases... so if you don't have a magic item shop, you automatically fail at life.

So 'a +4 weapon' is not going to work. At all. You need a very specific +4 weapon. Something like +1 Holy Vicious, and then cast GMW on it.

And this becomes even more noticeable later where you have a longer list of specific weapon properties required.

Now in the specific case of the Epic Sword of Shadows, all of its power is contingent upon scoring critical hits.

However, D&D combat is far more dangerous than DDO combat. You need to make the enemy die, and you need to make them die NOW, because if you don't they will do the same to you. There is no DDO combat that mirrors this. Not a one. Not even Shadowfiends kill you this quickly, despite the fact there is more than one of them, and even then no one actually fights them, ever.

Mariliths almost kill that quickly, and the result? Stay the hell away from her, do not go anywhere near melee range.

Imagine if DDO had every fight like a Marilith on crack. That's D&D.

Because of this, critical hits are simply not that useful even when they do occur. If you need the critical hits to kill the enemy in time, then whenever you don't get them you are dead meat... which means at best you survive one fight, then die in the second. If you don't need the critical hits to kill the enemy in time, then they really aren't helping you.

And not only are they not that useful due to the stricter time limits imposed on encounter length, they aren't that applicable either. Any intelligent creature will make themselves immune ASAP. Every DDO player does it. Every D&D player worth their D20 does it. And when fighting intelligent opponents, they'll do it too.

So just because Arraktrikos is a CR 38 Pit Fiend who still only has Moderate Fortification in DDO does not mean that the much more tame, and lower level (15-20) enemies in D&D will not have Heavy Fortification. At which point the Epic SoS goes from the amazing weapon it is vs stupid enemies (such as everything in DDO) to the weak weapon it is vs smart enemies (such as nearly everything in D&D). 4d6+10 is not nearly good enough to be relevant. Not even close. It's only through the critical hits it can be good, but those don't apply, and don't make much of a difference when they do.

And that is why the Epic SoS would be vendor trash in D&D.

And to Djinn: No. In WoW the main focus is on grinding for gear. I'm talking about needing an exact list of gear yes... but it not requiring any special effort to get other than being able to pay the sticker price. You get the tools of the trade easily so you can do your job. The gear is an obstacle, but not the focus.

And to Artos: No, that's not what I said at all. What I said was that it's only the 17+ content that has very high HP. But as that includes the place where you get greensteel, it cannot be because of greensteel. It's because of laziness. It's easier to jack mob numbers up than to make an engaging play experience. Particularly when extreme lag would make it impossible to participate in a dynamic play experience in the first place.

Raising the minimum level from 12 to 16, or 17 is just a massive strawman. No non TRs are going to have GS before 17, because it's a waste of XP to go in there early. And nothing 12-16 has the super high HP. GH mobs? Die in a second or two. Vale mobs? Two or three seconds? And those aren't the GS times (which would only be about 10% faster anyways). Keep in mind icy burst was released years... literally years after Mod 4 and Mod 6.

The main effect of the lazy design 17-20 is invalidating caster spell damage. That has nothing to do with weapons, or greensteel.

And to everyone: I pose to you this question.

If you wanted to fight a pit fiend, what classes would you bring to do so?

If you are a DDO player, Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, and Monks would top the list, along with a Bard to sing to them, and 1-2 Clerics/FvSs to heal them. Sorcerers and Wizards could be said to not have much of a specific role there, but you could certainly bring one, or more than one and not suffer for it if they had a clue.

If you are a D&D player, you will load up on Clerics (FvS being a passable substitute), Wizards (Sorcerers being a passable substitute) and Druids with perhaps some other casters from splatbooks if they are in the campaign. Bringing classes like... well, the ones that do well in DDO would only be a liability here. You could try bringing them anyways, but they'd just be a pileon. And if you have too many pileons, you die.

Now, ask yourself. Why is it that the classes that are epic fail in D&D are epic win in DDO? Could it be because the highly equipment dependent classes are actually able to get lots of equipment to meet those needs?

And once you've considered that, ask yourself this: Do you want all melee characters to go back to being useless gimps?

If the answer to this question is a resounding NO!, then you will stop pressing for the nerfing of gear availability as again, the reason for high HP 17-20 is laziness, and the only effect of nerfing gear would be invalidating over half the character classes.

Artos_Fabril
05-27-2010, 09:53 AM
Yet despite the fact there is a greater >focus< on numerical mastery in DDO than in the original source material, there is less of a >need< for it. Yes, I said it. D&D requires more optimization than DDO.

DDO is actually fairly forgiving of mistakes. If you roll a low con gimp, the best thing to do is to start over of course. But if you stand too close to the melee, what will happen is you'll get smacked once or twice, and then you'll move to a safer position.

Do the same thing in D&D and you'll probably have a dead character. Hell, going anywhere near any one of large array of level appropriate enemies can be classified as one of those sorts of mistakes. As in, one enemy can easily, easily one round you. Unless you have some awesome defenses, which most characters don't. No, AC is not a viable defense.

With that said in D&D you will have less overall equipment. At level 13 you only have 110k worth of stuff... and a +4 weapon is over a quarter that by itself.

But see, optimization is making the most of limited resources. So you have to make sure every last copper is boosting your numbers to the max, because the game expects you to do this in order to have the expected numbers.

In other words, for your level 13 character to perform as a level 13 character, you need to not only research every purchase, but then make those exact purchases... so if you don't have a magic item shop, you automatically fail at life.

So 'a +4 weapon' is not going to work. At all. You need a very specific +4 weapon. Something like +1 Holy Vicious, and then cast GMW on it.I don't know who you play PnP with, but there is not a single person in my gaming group that would even sit down at the table for that game. If you need specific equipment for an adventure, your DM had damn well better at least give you the opportunity to get it. If you're stubborn enough try without it...well maybe he lets you run away, or maybe someone gets killed as an object lesson (usually if they wanted to switch characters anyway)


Now in the specific case of the Epic Sword of Shadows, all of its power is contingent upon scoring critical hits.

However, D&D combat is far more dangerous than DDO combat. You need to make the enemy die, and you need to make them die NOW, because if you don't they will do the same to you. There is no DDO combat that mirrors this. Not a one. Not even Shadowfiends kill you this quickly, despite the fact there is more than one of them, and even then no one actually fights them, ever.

Mariliths almost kill that quickly, and the result? Stay the hell away from her, do not go anywhere near melee range.

Imagine if DDO had every fight like a Marilith on crack. That's D&D.

Because of this, critical hits are simply not that useful even when they do occur. If you need the critical hits to kill the enemy in time, then whenever you don't get them you are dead meat... which means at best you survive one fight, then die in the second. If you don't need the critical hits to kill the enemy in time, then they really aren't helping you.

And not only are they not that useful due to the stricter time limits imposed on encounter length, they aren't that applicable either. Any intelligent creature will make themselves immune ASAP. Every DDO player does it. Every D&D player worth their D20 does it. And when fighting intelligent opponents, they'll do it too.

So just because Arraktrikos is a CR 38 Pit Fiend who still only has Moderate Fortification in DDO does not mean that the much more tame, and lower level (15-20) enemies in D&D will not have Heavy Fortification. At which point the Epic SoS goes from the amazing weapon it is vs stupid enemies (such as everything in DDO) to the weak weapon it is vs smart enemies (such as nearly everything in D&D). 4d6+10 is not nearly good enough to be relevant. Not even close. It's only through the critical hits it can be good, but those don't apply, and don't make much of a difference when they do.

And that is why the Epic SoS would be vendor trash in D&D.Again, I don't know where you're getting this stuff. If that's the way your gaming group plays and what they enjoy, you're welcome to it, but still. Unless you're playing a tournament game at a convention, the DM should not be out to kill characters in every combat. Even then, if the DM hasn't given you the tools to suceed, or at least the opportunity to get them, he's a poor DM running a worse game.

And to Artos: No, that's not what I said at all. What I said was that it's only the 17+ content that has very high HP. But as that includes the place where you get greensteel, it cannot be because of greensteel.Until tier 3, GS is not even significantly better than an optimal randomly generated item (might have a couple more plusses, but that's about it) +4 Holy silver of GEOB is level req 16, and does better damage to shroud bosses than Min II. when this was cap content, players didn't have much else to do but farm the quest or farm the gear to complete the quest (not saying that's good game design, I agree with your next point)

It's because of laziness. It's easier to jack mob numbers up than to make an engaging play experience. Particularly when extreme lag would make it impossible to participate in a dynamic play experience in the first place.

Raising the minimum level from 12 to 16, or 17 is just a massive strawman. No non TRs are going to have GS before 17, because it's a waste of XP to go in there early. And nothing 12-16 has the super high HP. GH mobs? Die in a second or two. Vale mobs? Two or three seconds? And those aren't the GS times (which would only be about 10% faster anyways). Keep in mind icy burst was released years... literally years after Mod 4 and Mod 6.Was this supposed to be a response to me? I acknowledged that raising the min level to 16 wouldn't have made a difference, I merely mentioned that if they were going to do it, they should have done it when shroud was cap content, or as a part of the mod 7 patch. But in truth GS tier3 should (by PnP standards) be req level 20, because blast, among others, is an epic effect.

The main effect of the lazy design 17-20 is invalidating caster spell damage. That has nothing to do with weapons, or greensteel.Caster DPS from non-persistent spells (which are not instant kills) was invalidated well before Shroud. It's a side effect of ramping up mob HP and melee speed without ramping up spell damage. That's why no one really uses fireball, especially after they get wall of fire.


And to everyone: I pose to you this question.

If you wanted to fight a pit fiend, what classes would you bring to do so?
If you're a tabletop player, you bring your group. You don't get to choose who you take based on the encounter. Unless you're playing a tournament or a one-shot, that means a Face (paladin, sorc, beguiler, high-cha rogue etc.), a Warrior (Fighter, Barb, Ranger, Monk, etc.), a Skill character (high-int rogue, bard, ranger, spellblade, etc.), a Divine caster (Cleric, Druid, FvS, etc.) an Arcane (Wiz, Sorc, whatever), and whatever the other 1-3 players wanted to play.

salmag
05-27-2010, 10:39 AM
I think a way to fix it would be to bring the enemy HPs more in line with "normal" values, but increase the number of mobs we face.

example, Instead of facing 1 enemy with 10,000 hps, make it 4 enemies with 2,500 hps each (or something similar - you get the idea). This would also give enemies more attacks on players (more chances to damage).

And for a magic rich world (like Eberron), give all enemies access to more spells (especially the ability to heal themselves).

just my 2cps

BigDumbWeirdo
05-27-2010, 11:12 AM
BDW, I think we're getting off topic, check your messages.You're right. I was thinking the same thing last night: That our discussion would be better suited to the thread I created in this subforum.


Back to the original discussion:
DDO is a particular style of D&D game, full-on Monty Haul, hack and slash dungeon crawling.I've played those types of sessions in PnP, and it worked just fine with characters and equipment that would be considered severely underpowered by DDO standards.


Slapping the D20 system on an MMO and recycling the lore from a published campaign world was a way to generate instant recognition, but it's not exactly where D&D shines either.

The problem is, that's really the only kind of "RPG" that's ever been translated to an MMO, and it's what WotC was familiar with, what Hasbro was comfortable with, and what Turbine was capable of developing. It's not terribly innovative, instead it's well established form.You're right, that's exactly what happened. Turbine, Hasbro and WotC all decided to do an MMO, and spent too much time looking at what made other MMOs popular, instead of looking at what made DnD popular. I don't really blame them, going away from what other games are doing is a risk.

Unfortunately for players like the OP and I, sticking too closely to the established formula just doesn't do DnD justice.


DDO is actually fairly forgiving of mistakes. If you roll a low con gimp, the best thing to do is to start over of course. But if you stand too close to the melee, what will happen is you'll get smacked once or twice, and then you'll move to a safer position.

Do the same thing in D&D and you'll probably have a dead character. Hell, going anywhere near any one of large array of level appropriate enemies can be classified as one of those sorts of mistakes. As in, one enemy can easily, easily one round you. Unless you have some awesome defenses, which most characters don't. No, AC is not a viable defense.I disagree here, although I understand where you're coming from and I'm sympathetic.

In DnD, the GM's ability to intelligently scale means that he can pick mobs that do less damage when chars have low Con scores. In DDO, the only scaling is a very basic one of "Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic" where it simply adjusts the levels and number of monsters (from what I've seen, anyways).

But like I said, I understand where you're coming from. In DnD, I often killed enemies very similar in lvl to me with 1-2 hits. Critical hits were not something to be expected in a prolonged battle like they are in DDO, either. There might be as many attacks in a battle, but a lot more of them missed. That's more like real combat than the DDO system of "keep hitting till their HPs hit zero." (To be perfectly honest, real combat usually ends at the very first hit, and usually that comes within the first or second round, but still, we're talking about representations, not simulations.)


With that said in D&D you will have less overall equipment. At level 13 you only have 110k worth of stuff... and a +4 weapon is over a quarter that by itself.This part is true, except for people whose DMs played too much WoW.


But see, optimization is making the most of limited resources. So you have to make sure every last copper is boosting your numbers to the max, because the game expects you to do this in order to have the expected numbers.Here I disagree. DnD was not about min-maxing, because the DM could tailor the adventures to the party. You could play a sword & board character in DnD because the DM understood that it was a really effective historical style, and even though the D20 system didn't reflect this well, the DM could adjust the rules or the challenges to account for it. In DDO is where you require the optimization.
I mentioned that I chose a template for my char in another thread, and that I'd started as fighter but had taken a rogue lvl at char lvl 5. One person got on and immediately started telling me how I was a prime example of the dangers of not min-maxing. Now, there was a problem with his logic (my char actually seems a bit overpowered most of the time, instead of being gimped), but no-one can deny that his assumptions he based that logic on were sound.
My friend went through 2-3 different chars before he finally managed to get one that wasn't gimped. In DDO, you have to have a well-rounded, overpowered character to get by, whereas in DnD you can actually have weaknesses and still survive.

Ethiel
05-27-2010, 12:02 PM
Sword and Shield has never been an effective historical Style.

Mace or Flail and Shield sure.

Rapier & dagger yes.

2 handed sword held by hilt with both hands - No

2 handed sword held with on hand on hilt the other gloved or gauntleted hand holding the blade and ramming it at the opponent - Yes.

Would most historical styles translate into a fun fantasy game based on the myths and fables of legendary knights with holy swords matched in duals to the death against epic evil - no.


What is practical in the real world is not really a fun game or movie, in most cases. Would die hard by as great of a movie if it was accurate and Bruce Willis was either killed or captured by the first 2 terrorists... or conversely arrested at the end and then sued for wrongful death by the terrorists spouses?

Heck no. DDO is taking a fun Mythical setting for a well loved and respected RPG Table top game and using its skills style and setting in a instance based MMO it isn't going to be the same.

I know that most people are not going to want to play a level 1 wizard with max 6 hit points.

Oh yeah and then you have the death problem for PNP, don't have a cleric that can rez or can't afford the rez at the local temple. RE-ROLL.

So in an MMO you wouldn't have the power creep for casters at high level as they would be dead and the only viable end game builds would have to be Melee's as no one would be willing to suffer sitting there with 3 spells already used no hit points and watch the 1st level barb/fighter/ranger/paladin/monk/cleric bash things.

So yeah DDO is based off of DND but it is not able to be the same as there are too many variables that cannot be carried over, i.e. permadeath (except if it is player enforced) as they do not make a fun experience for the majority.

Ethiel
05-27-2010, 12:05 PM
ugh I rambled in the above post.

I must be at work :)

SquelchHU
05-27-2010, 12:26 PM
I disagree here, although I understand where you're coming from and I'm sympathetic.

In DnD, the GM's ability to intelligently scale means that he can pick mobs that do less damage when chars have low Con scores. In DDO, the only scaling is a very basic one of "Casual, Normal, Hard, Elite, Epic" where it simply adjusts the levels and number of monsters (from what I've seen, anyways).

Nope. To put it into DDO terms there's Hard, Elite, and Epic. No Normal, and no Casual. He can use harder enemies, but not easier past a certain point. So what happens is if the party is too weak there's literally nothing you can throw at em that won't annihilate em. But if they're very strong he can throw harder stuff at em and they can take it.


But like I said, I understand where you're coming from. In DnD, I often killed enemies very similar in lvl to me with 1-2 hits. Critical hits were not something to be expected in a prolonged battle like they are in DDO, either. There might be as many attacks in a battle, but a lot more of them missed. That's more like real combat than the DDO system of "keep hitting till their HPs hit zero." (To be perfectly honest, real combat usually ends at the very first hit, and usually that comes within the first or second round, but still, we're talking about representations, not simulations.)

Well that's simply due to the fast paced nature of combat. Which only becomes a problem when people can't keep up (having enough damage to kill things fast enough for example... a good D&D character would outdps an Epic SoS Barbarian out of simple necessity).


Here I disagree. DnD was not about min-maxing, because the DM could tailor the adventures to the party. You could play a sword & board character in DnD because the DM understood that it was a really effective historical style, and even though the D20 system didn't reflect this well, the DM could adjust the rules or the challenges to account for it. In DDO is where you require the optimization.

So in other words you expect the DM to revamp the entire game, to accomodate something that really wasn't effective at all?

To reiterate, I'm talking:

Greatly reducing enemy to hit of ALL enemies, by a very large margin, so AC actually matters.
Greatly reducing enemy HP of ALL enemies, so your low damage character can actually kill things some time today.

In effect, nerfing the entire game to compensate for a gimp character.

And 'a really effective historical style' means low level humans vs low level humans. This could also extend to stuff like orcs, but it still means it has an expiration date of 'level 3', so even if your DM follows that line of logic, you should still drop the board at level 4.

Cyr
05-27-2010, 03:39 PM
/not signed

Every game has some scaling as you level. Without scaling you run into the unfun situations of running weaker content for equal rewards. This utter fear of 'monty haul' really has caused some dumb design decisions already. These include the stagnant random loot tables above level 12, ToD rings that don't stack and are thus junk, and non epic epic loot.

Artos_Fabril
05-27-2010, 04:42 PM
Nope. To put it into DDO terms there's Hard, Elite, and Epic. No Normal, and no Casual. He can use harder enemies, but not easier past a certain point. So what happens is if the party is too weak there's literally nothing you can throw at em that won't annihilate em. But if they're very strong he can throw harder stuff at em and they can take it.If you have an entire party built to be totally unable to handle combat, you don't run combat. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't run an entirely social or intrigue based adventure, or a whodunit, or whatever. There's also no reason you can't fudge a die roll here and there to make what combat you have more fun. You also don't have to use the monsters exactly as they appear in the books (and often you should at least change a couple things, to keep them guessing, since they players have access to those books too)

Well that's simply due to the fast paced nature of combat. Which only becomes a problem when people can't keep up (having enough damage to kill things fast enough for example... a good D&D character would outdps an Epic SoS Barbarian out of simple necessity).If he was fighting in straight up melee combat, without using any sort of strategy or tactics more complicated than "I full round attack". Even then 14-34+(str mod*1.5) 5 times in a round is still pretty respectable damage when monsters have on the order of 250-350 HPs for CR 21 to 25 epic.

Greatly reducing enemy HP of ALL enemies, so your low damage character can actually kill things some time today.Really? When a regular fireball or lightning bolt can deals an average of 15-25% of a monster's HP, you think HP needs to be reduced so that a level 20 S&B fighter can contribute in combat? Even with the disparities between casters and melee in tabletop, fighters only really fall behind when fighting against groups of enemies.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-27-2010, 04:46 PM
Sword and Shield has never been an effective historical Style.Equipment and training of the Roman Legion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics#Equipment_and_training)
No offense, but you need to do some research before stating something as fact, especially if you're in direct disagreement with someone. The most powerful military in the ancient world, which built the greatest empire in history fought mainly using swords and shields.
The mere fact that shields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield) have been used from prehistoric times until modern times should tell you something about how useful it was, and the similar ubiquity of the sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword) is for similar reasons. In fact, behind spear-and-shield, sword-and-shield was the single most common historical armament method for dedicated soldiers.
Also look up viking combat. They brutalized Europe for centuries, and for them sword-and-shield was pretty much the standard against which all other forms of armament were measured.


Rapier & dagger yes.As a matter of fact, sword-and-buckler was more common than sword-and-dirk.
Also, rapiers were originally ornamental weapons intended to be used in dueling and self-defense against criminals, the earliest versions of which were known as an espada ropera, meaning "robe sword," and was named due to the fact that it was a weapon one wore when in formal dress. It wasn't a military weapon, and a real-life version of a DnD character would never choose such a weapon, unless he or she was highly skilled with it and only expected to fight knife and rapier-armed human opponents.
The rapier is actually quite a poor weapon when faced with a trained opponent armed with a more militant weapon, such as an arming sword or a longsword.

You're right about the longswords and greatswords, except for the fact that you usually didn't need to armor your hand specifically to grab the ricasso, it was generally unsharpened for this specific reason.


What is practical in the real world is not really a fun game or movie, in most cases.That's entirely subjective. I for one prefer more realism. In fact, the more realistic the better for me. I know some who disagree, and others who agree. It's all about preference.


Would die hard by as great of a movie if it was accurate and Bruce Willis was either killed or captured by the first 2 terrorists... or conversely arrested at the end and then sued for wrongful death by the terrorists spouses?Regarding the latter option: Sure it would. It would have a a horrible epilogue, but still. (I doubt the spouses would win such a lawsuit, however. Under US common law, anything that happens to you as a direct result of you committing a crime is usually your own liability.)

If someone remade Die Hard to have Willis employ more realistic tactics, and show consideration for the real world consequences of his actions, as well as giving him an OD-Delta background to explain how he knew which tactics to employ, it'd be simply awesome.







Nope. To put it into DDO terms there's Hard, Elite, and Epic. No Normal, and no Casual. He can use harder enemies, but not easier past a certain point. So what happens is if the party is too weak there's literally nothing you can throw at em that won't annihilate em. But if they're very strong he can throw harder stuff at em and they can take it.While that's true, it just makes my point for me. If you're gimped in DDO, you're screwed. If you're gimped in PnP? A sympathetic DM is all you need.


So in other words you expect the DM to revamp the entire game, to accomodate something that really wasn't effective at all? Not at all. I expect the DM to understand that in a party with no thief, putting a massive locked door which we can't break, teleport past or bypass in the way of the main goal would be downright stupid.
In DDO, if you go into a dungeon with rare items behind secret doors and you have no thief (or super spot buff) to find them, you simply don't find them. In PnP, if the DM wants you to find them, he can do spot checks, then if those fail, he can do checks on intelligence to see if someone notices from the layout that there should be a room behind this wall, if those fail, he can have someone do a charisma check to see if that orc you're interrogating tells you about the secret door, or if that fails, he can decide you find a note to the new orc, telling him how to open the door.

But all of that is beside the point. The PnP system of scaling works, as evinced by the thousands of players using it all the time. One could set up DDO using that same scaling, as well as using the typical rarity of magic found in PnP without ruining the game.


Greatly reducing enemy to hit of ALL enemies, by a very large margin, so AC actually matters.
Greatly reducing enemy HP of ALL enemies, so your low damage character can actually kill things some time today.

In effect, nerfing the entire game to compensate for a gimp character.That's only a bad idea if you're accommodating only a portion of the players. If you have players who are all 'gimped', then it's simply wise scaling.


And 'a really effective historical style' means low level humans vs low level humans. This could also extend to stuff like orcs, but it still means it has an expiration date of 'level 3', so even if your DM follows that line of logic, you should still drop the board at level 4.Have you ever gotten into a fight with a guy who has 2 black belts?
If you had, you'd know that the difference between an accomplished fighter and your average inducted-but-not-accomplished martial artist is every bit as extreme as the difference between a 20th lvl fighter and a 3rd lvl fighter.

I have a 3rd dan in taijutsu, and I'd bet money on me in a fistfight with a tougher-than-average gang banger. Why? Because I have much more experience. In fact, I'd give damn good odds to anyone willing to take that bet, because I've been in fights like that and I've seen how they go. I get swung at, I grab an arm or leg, break it, and the fight's over. If the guy's particularly wily, I might have to trip him up or stomp on his ankle before I can do that, but it's still gonna end the same way.

Simple as that. The reason fights between two gang bangers last longer and are less predictable is because they're both the equivalent of 3rd lvl PnP fighters, while I'm more like a 10th lvl in this situation. If I fought another guy on the same level as me, it'd be a longer fight, and more unpredictable.

Now, if I got into a fight with a guy who's the equivalent of a 20th lvl fighter, it's go pretty much the same way, only faster and with me in the hospital after.

SquelchHU
05-27-2010, 05:15 PM
If you have an entire party built to be totally unable to handle combat, you don't run combat. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't run an entirely social or intrigue based adventure, or a whodunit, or whatever. There's also no reason you can't fudge a die roll here and there to make what combat you have more fun. You also don't have to use the monsters exactly as they appear in the books (and often you should at least change a couple things, to keep them guessing, since they players have access to those books too)

Social or intrigue disqualifies many, but not all of the same classes that level appropriate combat disqualifies.


If he was fighting in straight up melee combat, without using any sort of strategy or tactics more complicated than "I full round attack". Even then 14-34+(str mod*1.5) 5 times in a round is still pretty respectable damage when monsters have on the order of 250-350 HPs for CR 21 to 25 epic.

Well, that's all he can do. And he doesn't have reach. But let's ignore that.

His Str is 34, so 32-52 a hit. Pretty weak for a two hander, particularly with no reach. And only about 3 or 4 of those will be likely to hit, due to -15 to hit penalty. Not good enough. Still at least a quarter below what it should be given CR 20 enemies start at 300 HP and go up from there, and 21-25s are higher than this.

He's better off selling it, and using the money to buy something decked out in special properties.


Really? When a regular fireball or lightning bolt can deals an average of 15-25% of a monster's HP, you think HP needs to be reduced so that a level 20 S&B fighter can contribute in combat? Even with the disparities between casters and melee in tabletop, fighters only really fall behind when fighting against groups of enemies.

Only 15-25%. Which is a waste of an action. And it'd have to get lucky (failed save, no resist) to do that much.

So yes, enemy HP would have to be greatly reduced. If a Balor has more than 100 HP sword and board guy is 100% dead before he kills it. Hint: It has close to 300. And that trickles down through all the levels. Troll needs to have about 25-30 HP, instead of 63. Etc.

The reasons why casters are awesome have nothing to do with HP damage and everything to do with bypassing HP damage.


While that's true, it just makes my point for me. If you're gimped in DDO, you're screwed. If you're gimped in PnP? A sympathetic DM is all you need.

What? You're not good at reading comprehension are you?


Not at all. I expect the DM to understand that in a party with no thief, putting a massive locked door which we can't break, teleport past or bypass in the way of the main goal would be downright stupid.
In DDO, if you go into a dungeon with rare items behind secret doors and you have no thief (or super spot buff) to find them, you simply don't find them. In PnP, if the DM wants you to find them, he can do spot checks, then if those fail, he can do checks on intelligence to see if someone notices from the layout that there should be a room behind this wall, if those fail, he can have someone do a charisma check to see if that orc you're interrogating tells you about the secret door, or if that fails, he can decide you find a note to the new orc, telling him how to open the door.

Exactly how would this happen? Sure, he can put a locked door, thief or not. But if he's expecting the door to be a serious obstacle, he's either making the same mistake some guy I talked to earlier today on a similar subject did and assumed D&D was DDO style railroading, or will be angrily surprised when someone bashes down the door or teleports past it, or earth glides around it, or...


That's only a bad idea if you're accommodating only a portion of the players. If you have players who are all 'gimped', then it's simply wise scaling.

Except for that part about transparency of mechanics, and about people being expected to punch at their weight (which honestly isn't hard, unless you're a melee). Perhaps you should play 4th edition.


Have you ever gotten into a fight with a guy who has 2 black belts?
If you had, you'd know that the difference between an accomplished fighter and your average inducted-but-not-accomplished martial artist is every bit as extreme as the difference between a 20th lvl fighter and a 3rd lvl fighter.

Your internet tough guy act aside, what you are describing is at best the difference between a level 1 warrior and a level 3 fighter. Both of which still qualify as low level humans vs low level humans. And the most elite humans on the planet Earth? About level 5.

If not, let's see you fall out of a plane with a 100% survival rate, or easily beat up several dozen people all at once. Or deal with one person who brings a gun to a fist fight. Because a level 20 anything could easily do that. However I suspect if you tried it you would end up dead.

Drakos
05-27-2010, 05:23 PM
I've been playing this game for circa three years now and I've seen a dramatic veer toward the "high number" game. And I know it might be way too late to fix, but I'd really appreciate if devs could muse about this issue in their coffee break time :D

Trash mobs/minions with 5-10K HPs, Bosses with 50K+ HPs and other nonsense like that. I personally don't buy the "PnP was desinged for 4-5 PCs, not 12" argument because it's the same nonsense in 6-man instances AND the numbers aren't multiplied by, say, 3 or 4. No, some NPC HPs are multiplied 50-fold. Nothing to do with making it a challenge, everything to do with excessive magic available to PCs.


We have GS items ML11, GS Weaps: ML12 and some out there ML8! lvl2 PCs dual wielding +2/3 Icy Burst of PG (some times yet another elemental burst on top of that), PC AC in the 100s, it is mundane to see a raging/buffed barb breaking through 1K HP, Casters with mental abilities above 40 also common place and of course ML9 +6 stat items. Any DM worth their salt would scuff at those numbers. Truth is, most GS weaps should be ML20 and the items ML17-19. When you have a weapon that still rocks on epic setting that you can use at lvl11-12 you know there's something wrong with the game design and planning. Adding Icy Burst recipe to weaps should've increased their ML by 4. But I guess it's all about marketing. PCs see five numbers (i.e. a + b +c + d + e) on top of a mob's head on a crit and "omg I'm a DPS beast this is so cool omg omg omg" completely forgetting that such weapon is in direct violation of 3.5 ML rules which this game is supposed to be based on (don't say house rule, pls, no group would ever play with such lax ML requirements).

Of course, this is a self-perpetuating vicious cycle thing because 1)they'll balance (i.e. inflate) HPs so that dual burst of PG 'peshes won't kill them in 1/2 attack sequence which royally screws the "have-nots" since they don't have such formidable weapons at their disposal. Then peeps will complain that mobs have too many HPs, devs will add more powerful weaps and so has gone the story so far.

On top of that you have the enhancement system which in the case of arcane casters brings their levels of damage bursts to absurd levels. In the case of melees you can get so-called PrEs with relatively minimal perquisites that are absolutely overpowered as well.

I, for one, would not mind if you either increase the ML dramatically (of GS items/weaps) to reflect their awesome power and remove stacking elemental bursts from Risia upgraded weapons while at the same time taming down NPC HPs to a less stratospheric levels. The net effect should be a more balanced game. This would bring this game a lot closer to its roots. I know some people love seeing numbers flying all over the place and get a kick out of it and I'm sure they would oppose this petition. However, for many people this would be a refreshing change where player skill and group tactics come forth more (i.e. almost required for success) as opposed to have a game overly dependent on gear and items and all the raids and quest are beaten by brute force.

/soap_box

Just for the sake of disclosure: I do own several multi-burst lowbie weaps and all my toons are and have been GS'd out for some time

/signed

QFT +1 to you

Drakos
05-27-2010, 05:30 PM
I do however loathe your comparison to pnp. Any argument based off of pnp, to matter how pertinent it may seem, is to me, simply completely invalid.
Mind if I ask why this is? The game itself is supposedly based on the PnP game. The advertisments for the game (back at launch) wer "The closest to the the actual game".

Yes, some changes had to be made because of going from Turn Based to Live Action. I can understand that, but some things were altered without need (AOO, Uncanny Dodge). But in the end the source material is the PnP game, and their intent was to capatalize on the PnP crowd. So in light of that why shouldn't PnP be used as a basis for comparison?

Drakos
05-27-2010, 05:40 PM
Equipment does not have a minimum level in D&D. Instead, there is a recommended wealth for a party's level.

Oh, and Mojo - a kobold has a number of hit points based on how many levels of Rogue he or she has. :P
Agreed, for the most part ML does not exist in D&D. But is should here since in D&D you have a living breathing DM who controles the amount of treasure he deals out to keep it reasonable.

The base Kobold in is 1/2d hit dice. However Kobolds can level in classes, so their HD will start at 1/2d8 but will depend on classes (sorceror being the prefered class based on Races of the Dragon).

TheJusticar
05-27-2010, 05:46 PM
I agree with the sentiment.I also see the need in MMO play for the decisions the devs have made.

My thought and advice to the devs has been that the 'spread' of magic should have been lengthened out (e.g., +1 weapons at level 3 or 4). Make "masterwork' mean something.

The problem, imo, is that the game's decision maker's seem to believe that many new players would be turned off the game without the 'instant gratification' of a quick step by step ascendancy to better gear. I think this is a shame and underestimates what draws players to the game and devalues the concept of 'treasure' as a whole.

Yup. And this is my whole issue. There was zero long-term planning when the game came out. A little foresight could've helped quite a bit. No one stepped up and said, "hey, I think that +3 flaming burst is a little too much for ML6 considering flaming burst in DDO also includes flaming effect for free" or "hey that +6 CHA mask/+6 STR ML9 belt is a bit too soon" or "hey these GS weaps have like 5 different magic properties alongside a +5 modifier and increased base damage so perhaps we should make their ML tiered and fully functional at cap" or "what about a full damage self-crit when rolling a 1 unless they're lvl18"

Drakos
05-27-2010, 05:49 PM
When they were trying to be more true to the former this games population paled in comparison to what it is now. DDO pretty much is a WoW clone, it's repetitive, it's just that it's more drawn out, which makes replay value of dungeons and quests more desirable.
And when was that. From the start they deviated from PnP and have continued to do so since. They have never strived to "be true to the source".

The fact that it is still alive isn't because of their departure from PnP. Their departure from PnP almost killed the game, the only way to save it was the F2P model to get new people in. Most of those seem to be WoW players lookiing to trade up. Unfortunatly Turbin seems to be be trying to make it into a WoW clone.

TheJusticar
05-27-2010, 05:53 PM
And when was that. From the start they deviated from PnP and have continued to do so since. They have never strived to "be true to the source".

The fact that it is still alive isn't because of their departure from PnP. Their departure from PnP almost killed the game, the only way to save it was the F2P model to get new people in. Most of those seem to be WoW players lookiing to trade up. Unfortunatly Turbin seems to be be trying to make it into a WoW clone.

So sadly true. :(

+1 'cause wholeheartedly agree.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-27-2010, 11:27 PM
What? You're not good at reading comprehension are you?I am. The fact that you can't see what I'm talking about only sheds light on your own intellect. Now, would you like to continue with the pointless ****ing contest, or engage in an actual discussion?


Exactly how would this happen?Like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons_modules)


Except for that part about transparency of mechanics, and about people being expected to punch at their weight (which honestly isn't hard, unless you're a melee). Perhaps you should play 4th edition. Did you really not understand my point? I was saying that if all the players are weaker, then weaker monsters would be a logical next step.
For the record, I have played 4th ed. Once, and not for very long, but I have. I also own a copy of the PH.


Your internet tough guy act aside, what you are describing is at best the difference between a level 1 warrior and a level 3 fighter.First off, simply acknowledging an interest in martial arts and using myself as an example is hardly a "tough guy act". Suffice it to say we will never meet in person, and so how tough I am should hardly be relevant to anything except my example. If it makes you uncomfortable for me to use myself as an example, I'll gladly use someone else.

Second, you simply don't know what you're talking about. If someone with a basic level of familiarity with unarmed combat scuffles with someone with a slightly-more-advanced level of familiarity, there's not going to be much difference, just like there isn't much difference between a lvl 1 and a lvl 3. I've played 3.5 ed chars who, at lvl 1, could handle a lvl 3, because they had better ability scores than the lvl 3. Training and experience don't count for much when you don't have a lot of either, but once you start dealing with a few years of either, they make a load of difference in comparison to other qualities.


Both of which still qualify as low level humans vs low level humans. And the most elite humans on the planet Earth? About level 5.Ok, I was going to make a snide remark about your sense of scale, but that would be counter productive, so instead, let's take a look at a real comparison of DnD skill levels and real world qualities.
An accomplished martial artist will hit an unskilled opponent every time that he tries to. Some of those hits will be glancing, yes, but he will not miss.
Since we're talking about unarmed combat and we're assuming a level playing field with respect to ability scores, we can summarize the martial artist's BAB as equal to half his lvl (because all other factors are level). Therefore, to ensure a hit every time (barring some critical failure), he needs at least +10.
That puts him at lvl 20.

Now, please explain to me why you seem to think that the world's most accomplished martial artist is only going to be 10% more likely to hit someone when they attack than a rank amateur with the same ability scores. That's where 5th lvl puts him. +2 BAB.


If not, let's see you fall out of a plane with a 100% survival rate,If you honestly think a lvl 20 fighter in 4th ed could survive a 20,000' fall, you've never played the game. Here's how it works in 4th ed: You take 1d10 points of damage for each 10' you fall. That's 2000d10, or an average of 10,000 points of damage. You have a Dex of 20, since you're an elf, and thus get +5 to your Acrobatics. You spent a feat on it, and are trained in acrobatics, and so get another +5. You're level 20, you get another +10. You have various miscellaneous bonuses from the situation and magic and get another +20 (this is extreme). So you roll, and score a 20. To that you add 5, 5, 10 and 20, to get a total roll of 60, so you've just reduced the damage by 30 points. Even assuming you rolled a 1 on each of those d10s for damage, you're still talking about 1,970 points of damage.
If your con is 18 (because you're the toughest elf in the world), that means at lvl 20 you'd have 153 hit points.

So, 153HP vs 1,970 damage. Do you really think that's survivable?? That's the best case scenario, too. That's 2001 perfect dice rolls (2000 for the damage and 1 for the skill check). The odds against it are so far beyond astronomical as to be nearly incomprehensible; less than 1 in 10^2000. To put that in perspective, there are less than 10^83 atoms in the entire universe. The truth is, the actual damage rolled would be close to 10,000. That means you take 9,970 points, more than 65 times the amount of damage it would take to kill you.


or easily beat up several dozen people all at once.You think it's really that hard for a tough guy to take on multiple opponents? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVKg6CqLkPg)
The winner in that fight isn't even a trained fighter, from what I can see. He's just got some experience in street fights.

I even saw a guy beat the bejesus out of an even dozen gang-bangers for catcalling his wife once. Barely even broke a sweat.


Or deal with one person who brings a gun to a fist fight.Guns are notoriously bad weapons in extremely close quarters, like a narrow alley. It's due to the fact that the only dangerous position to be in with respect to a gun is directly in front of the barrel. It also has to do with the fact that 90% of the population will hesitate before squeezing the trigger, due to the prominent place guns have in our culture. In many self-defense scenarios, being unarmed or having a knife is far more desirable than attempting to use a gun.




Oh by the way, You want to see what happens when a street tough picks a fight with an accomplished martial artist? This happens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72pBCMzwhJI)

TheJusticar
05-27-2010, 11:33 PM
Folks, I really appreciate everyone's views, but please let's tone it down and keep it civil. I'm aware that it's too easy to get aggravated in these fora, but please for the sake of the argument and so no one get's dinged on a suggestion thread let's stop the p!ssing contest.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-27-2010, 11:42 PM
Folks, I really appreciate everyone's views, but please let's tone it down and keep it civil. I'm aware that it's too easy to get aggravated in these fora, but please for the sake of the argument and so no one get's dinged on a suggestion thread let's stop the p!ssing contest.By all means. Apologies for my own contributions, I just don't appreciate people using insults in place of discussion with me.

SquelchHU
05-28-2010, 07:37 AM
I am. The fact that you can't see what I'm talking about only sheds light on your own intellect. Now, would you like to continue with the pointless ****ing contest, or engage in an actual discussion?

You're funny.

See, you went and took this line:


Nope. To put it into DDO terms there's Hard, Elite, and Epic. No Normal, and no Casual. He can use harder enemies, but not easier past a certain point. So what happens is if the party is too weak there's literally nothing you can throw at em that won't annihilate em. But if they're very strong he can throw harder stuff at em and they can take it.

And turned it into the exact opposite of what I actually said...


While that's true, it just makes my point for me. If you're gimped in DDO, you're screwed. If you're gimped in PnP? A sympathetic DM is all you need.

And then when I call you on the lack of reading comprehension? You try to insult me while claiming that I am insulting you. Congrats. I believe that's what you martial arts types call a reversal induced self defeat. :D


Like this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dungeons_&_Dragons_modules)

Your link is irrelevant. If you meant to cite a specific module, then all that proves is that that specific module was written by a clueless noob or a railroader.


Did you really not understand my point? I was saying that if all the players are weaker, then weaker monsters would be a logical next step.
For the record, I have played 4th ed. Once, and not for very long, but I have. I also own a copy of the PH.

Or they could just actually play characters that have some business adventuring instead of Joe the freakin' Farmer.

Anyways I suggested you go play 4th edition because there's no rhyme or reason to enemy statistics there. The elf ranger arbitrarily has several times the HP of your elf ranger and several times less damage because it's a mob, so you can just treat its stats like the stats of any other mob.


Second, you simply don't know what you're talking about. If someone with a basic level of familiarity with unarmed combat scuffles with someone with a slightly-more-advanced level of familiarity, there's not going to be much difference, just like there isn't much difference between a lvl 1 and a lvl 3. I've played 3.5 ed chars who, at lvl 1, could handle a lvl 3, because they had better ability scores than the lvl 3. Training and experience don't count for much when you don't have a lot of either, but once you start dealing with a few years of either, they make a load of difference in comparison to other qualities.

The level 3 will have 2-3 times the HP of a level 1 and is therefore going to win unless he deliberately loses.

Also, a level 3 will have a 50% chance of killing an Ogre in 1 on 1 combat. Let me know how that goes for you.


Now, please explain to me why you seem to think that the world's most accomplished martial artist is only going to be 10% more likely to hit someone when they attack than a rank amateur with the same ability scores. That's where 5th lvl puts him. +2 BAB.

This is hilarious. You honestly think there is anyone on earth that could compete on any real level with D&D stuff? You are the reason Fighters Do Not Get Nice Things.


If you honestly think a lvl 20 fighter in 4th ed could survive a 20,000' fall, you've never played the game.

Fail.

Here are my actual words.


Your internet tough guy act aside, what you are describing is at best the difference between a level 1 warrior and a level 3 fighter. Both of which still qualify as low level humans vs low level humans. And the most elite humans on the planet Earth? About level 5.

If not, let's see you fall out of a plane with a 100% survival rate, or easily beat up several dozen people all at once. Or deal with one person who brings a gun to a fist fight. Because a level 20 anything could easily do that. However I suspect if you tried it you would end up dead.

No mention of 4th edition anywhere in there. In fact no mention of 4th edition anywhere in my post, except for the part where I suggested you play it since there's no rhyme or reason to mob stats anyways.

Know why that is? Because I was talking about 3.5. You know, that thing we were talking about, that thing DDO is loosely based on, and that thing that actually has relevance to the topic at hand? Yeah, that.

And in the actual 3.5 rules we were actually discussing, you take 1d6 per 10 feet of falling... up to 20d6 for 200 feet, at which point you hit terminal velocity and falling damage stops scaling. 20-120 damage.

Which means the level 20 Fighter, with a minimum HP of 214 walks away every single time. Not just survives, but walks away because HP damage doesn't slow you down until it incaps or kills you. Hell, he could probably do it more than once in a row, though there's a small chance of rolling near max damage both times and actually suffering for it.

And then you know what he does? He takes a week off, is fully healed (not that he was badly injured in the first place) and does it again. Go ahead and try that, let me know how it goes Mr. Level 20 in real life. :D


Guns are notoriously bad weapons in extremely close quarters, like a narrow alley. It's due to the fact that the only dangerous position to be in with respect to a gun is directly in front of the barrel. It also has to do with the fact that 90% of the population will hesitate before squeezing the trigger, due to the prominent place guns have in our culture. In many self-defense scenarios, being unarmed or having a knife is far more desirable than attempting to use a gun.

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/2/7/7/9/3/9/a2926156-219-Facepalm%20jesus-facepalm-facepalm.jpg

So the Internet Tough Guy is now Squelched.

Back on topic.


The fact that it is still alive isn't because of their departure from PnP. Their departure from PnP almost killed the game, the only way to save it was the F2P model to get new people in. Most of those seem to be WoW players lookiing to trade up. Unfortunatly Turbin seems to be be trying to make it into a WoW clone.

What almost killed the game was the lack of content. Their departures from PnP are the only things that gave it any traction to begin with.

Answer me this: Would you play a game where you hit level cap and have nothing to do in one hour? Would you continue to pay month after month for a game you can finish on your lunch break? And would you even play it that long, given there is so little to progress for? Why or why not?

Because that is exactly what you'd get if you straight up copied PnP into a real time hack and slasher (calling it an MMORPG is disingenuous, as you'd only actually be playing with 0-5 others at a time and there is no roleplay in computer games).

So they raised up loot (both giving non spellcaster classes some validity and giving everyone something to progress for) and they added enhancements (more of a sense of progress) while slowing down leveling (so you don't cap in an hour).

Know what happened? People capped in a few days and complained about the lack of content. So they got more things to grind on. Repeat until the present day.

Welcome to MMOs.

BigDumbWeirdo
05-28-2010, 08:13 AM
You're funny
And you're both rude and apparently suffering from the same difficulties you falsely ascribe to me, as well as being highly ignorant of a subject you've chosen to argue about.

Therefore, I'm done discussing anything with you.

"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument." - William G. Mcadoo

Hafeal
05-28-2010, 05:05 PM
Yup. And this is my whole issue. There was zero long-term planning when the game came out. A little foresight could've helped quite a bit. No one stepped up and said, "hey, I think that +3 flaming burst is a little too much for ML6 considering flaming burst in DDO also includes flaming effect for free" or "hey that +6 CHA mask/+6 STR ML9 belt is a bit too soon" or "hey these GS weaps have like 5 different magic properties alongside a +5 modifier and increased base damage so perhaps we should make their ML tiered and fully functional at cap" or "what about a full damage self-crit when rolling a 1 unless they're lvl18"


And when was that. From the start they deviated from PnP and have continued to do so since. They have never strived to "be true to the source".

The fact that it is still alive isn't because of their departure from PnP. Their departure from PnP almost killed the game, the only way to save it was the F2P model to get new people in. Most of those seem to be WoW players lookiing to trade up. Unfortunatly Turbin seems to be be trying to make it into a WoW clone.

I agree with you both. +1