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Synnestar15973
05-20-2010, 01:55 AM
Ok , maybe I'm just not keen on ranged weaponry ; or, just don't see the reason bow damage is less than crossbow damage but what really puzzles me is if crossbows do more damge why they are excluded as a weapon class for archer class charater skills, unless Exotic Weapons Proficiency is activated - or did I neglect something somewhere in my exploring?:eek:

Ystradmynach
05-20-2010, 02:37 AM
First off, there is no such thing as an archer class, anyone can pull a missile weapon out, and should have one just in case. Rangers just happen to better at using a bow than most other classes, they aren't better with all missile weapons.

Secondly, crossbows don't add strength damage to your attack because they are mechanical devices. They are better for low strength characters, most likely dex. rogues. In fact, rogue mechanics will get automatic proficiency in crossbows next update.

Synnestar15973
05-21-2010, 01:38 AM
First off, there is no such thing as an archer class, anyone can pull a missile weapon out, and should have one just in case. Rangers just happen to better at using a bow than most other classes, they aren't better with all missile weapons.

Secondly, crossbows don't add strength damage to your attack because they are mechanical devices. They are better for low strength characters, most likely dex. rogues. In fact, rogue mechanics will get automatic proficiency in crossbows next update.
:)
It's nice you left an opinion.
I see just an opinion here and the point is opinions,
ranged attacks are the point to this thread - which weapon actually is better ranged, I've read several threads about ranged attacks.
The debate is which weapon class is best... and I'm still trying to figure it out
Adding 1 level fighter for the exotic weapons profficiency class feat, is it worth cross-classing into that proficiency, but it is ultimately my choice, soo the debate and discussion continue....

MrCow
05-21-2010, 01:52 AM
Ok , maybe I'm just not keen on ranged weaponry ; or, just don't see the reason bow damage is less than crossbow damage but what really puzzles me is if crossbows do more damge why they are excluded as a weapon class for archer class charater skills, unless Exotic Weapons Proficiency is activated - or did I neglect something somewhere in my exploring?

They each have their own perks for existing:


Bows - Allows Strength to add to total damage with the Bow Strength feat. Faster than crossbows. Slower than repeaters. Has an x3 critical modifier which is handy for things in an auto-crit state. Arcane archers are probably the only other consideration for using a bow primarily over other ranged weapon types, as their imbuement works only for arrows.
Shortbow - Generally the prime bow a rogue would use (if they decided to use a bow) as they gain proficiency in the Shortbow and not the Longbow. Allows Strength Damage to contribute to total damage with the Bow Strength feat.
Longbow - The default ranged weapon for most folks with Bow Strength.
Crossbows - A weapon set everyone is proficient with. Has no attribute modifier than can raise its damage and it is the slowest ranged weapon, thus it is often shunned. It has a minorly higher base damage, which helps counter the lack of Strength to increase damage for the very low Strength characters.
Repeaters - An exotic weapon set that is fast to fire. You get approximately twice the shots per unit of time on a repeater compared to a standard crossbow.
Light Crossbow - Lower weight than heavy, which is the only consideration for carrying one over a heavy crossbow.
Heavy Crossbow - The standard crossbow if someone will use one.
Great Crossbow - Due to being an exotic weapon it is seldom used, but it has a higher base damage and pretty large critical threat range (18-20). The slow rate of fire still hampers its use though.
Thrown - The common default weapon for anyone without Bow Strength once they find a returning weapon they are proficient with (and every class has at least one thrown weapon they are proficient in, except wizards). It fires at the rate of a Bow and can add their Strength modifier to damage.

Synnestar15973
05-21-2010, 09:24 AM
That is a good piece of informative data you have here - will help when my time comes to pick weapon for ranged damages - thanks - anyone else care to chime in - feel free - looking for more input.... Thanks in advance...:)

JustWinBaby
05-21-2010, 09:26 AM
That is a good piece of informative data you have here - will help when my time comes to pick weapon for ranged damages - thanks - anyone else care to chime in - feel free - looking for more input.... Thanks in advance...:)

That's pretty much it. Bows are faster but do less base damage than Crossbows. Get a Vorpal Returner and you should be set with a returner :)

Silvershaper
05-21-2010, 10:43 AM
Also remember to count in Manyshot - granted feat at ranger lvl 11. Only works with bows.

grodon9999
05-21-2010, 10:44 AM
Also remember to count in Manyshot - granted feat at ranger lvl 11. Only works with bows.

Level 6

Silvershaper
05-21-2010, 05:19 PM
Sry, my bad - IPS is at lvl 11, but that works with crossbows and throwing weapons as well as bows.

Backley
05-21-2010, 05:48 PM
They each have their own perks for existing:


Bows Faster than crossbows. Slower than repeaters.
Crossbows is the slowest ranged weapon,
Repeaters - An exotic weapon set that is fast to fire. You get approximately twice the shots per unit of time on a repeater compared to a standard crossbow.
Great Crossbow - The slow rate of fire still hampers its use though.
Thrown It fires at the rate of a Bow


Anyone have stats on how fast these all fire, and how that compares to melee weapon attack speeds?

I've made myself a spreed sheet that calculates average damage per attack with a weapon, but don't know how to convert that to DPS for different weapon types.

jingseng
05-21-2010, 07:23 PM
Keep in mind also: the PrE arcane archer and Deepwhatever whatever only work with bows - so things like imbue Acid (works basically like a free burst effect on every single shot), Imbue Tentacles (terror arrows - a little less annoying than fearsome armor/shorter duration, and procs PK on vorpal), and Imbue Dieplz (slayer, which chews through bosses in many mode) only work with a bow. Even the most basic imbue force gives you ghost touch. Even just summon 100% returning arrows is nice - it's liberating to not have to worry about the +x on a bow, and just look for pre/suff combination.

Lined up with IPS, you proc that imbue on every mob in a line - and consider many mode with that.

As far as short vs. long goes, keep in mind what your goal is - in some cases, the base damage just doesn't matter. If you have a disruptor weapon, for example, the base damage shouldn't be your focus - you are hoping to kill in fewer hits than it takes to kill anyway. Toss on Improved cursepewpewing, and damn the damage. With a paralyzer, damage should also probably take a back seat if necessary; consider something like greater parrying, or perhaps other support-type suffixes

In any event, short and long only differ (generally) by one dice step, so really... you're just talking about a difference at the max crit range - the difference in average damage per hit is going to be pretty low.

MrCow
05-21-2010, 07:31 PM
Anyone have stats on how fast these all fire, and how that compares to melee weapon attack speeds?

Generally, when there is something you want to know in DDO, yet it isn't used by the masses (this case being ranged weaponry) and is tedious to find out, the knowledge isn't compiled. However, you may find some of that information by sifting through things like the attack indexes made by Monkey_Archer (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535) and cforce (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819).


Keep in mind also: the PrE arcane archer and Deepwhatever whatever only work with bows

Deepwood Sniper is Ranged Weapon agnostic (isn't solely for the bow).

jingseng
05-21-2010, 07:37 PM
Deepwood Sniper is Ranged Weapon agnostic (isn't solely for the bow).

hmm. The description makes it sound as though it is intended for bow only, but nothing in their abilities currently restricts that. Of course, their abilities aren't very developed as yet either, so it could change in the future, but you are right - my mistake ^^b

Silvershaper
05-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Anyone have stats on how fast these all fire, and how that compares to melee weapon attack speeds?


Using google and 2 minutes, I found this to be interesting:
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2381519&postcount=1

And also this thread with tests:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=234976

And take a look at this one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2636885#post2636885

Synnestar15973
05-22-2010, 04:49 AM
THANKS HEAPS people for really adding QUALITY information,,, THIS means heaps TO ME and will benefit all - GOOD JOB!!!!:)

Gissur
05-22-2010, 07:12 AM
Ok , maybe I'm just not keen on ranged weaponry ; or, just don't see the reason bow damage is less than crossbow damage but what really puzzles me is if crossbows do more damge why they are excluded as a weapon class for archer class charater skills, unless Exotic Weapons Proficiency is activated - or did I neglect something somewhere in my exploring?:eek:


With Bows you add str bonus, if you have the "bow strenght feat", free for rangers.
Crossbows never get str bonus and hence is probably better as a ranged weapon if you dont plan in taking that feat. For damage, obviously Longbows will do most.

Difference betwen bows is Flight time of arrows.
Longbows have fastest flight time, almost insta hit from long range.
Composite longbows have slower flight time
Short bows have very slow flight time.

In no way does the damage differ due to flight time, but its easier to run and shoot with a longbow, or to hit targets that is running sideways, then with any other bow, due to the fast arrow travel to its target.

Regarding no Archer class. Its an absurd thing to say, when there is Arcane Archers around.
Being able to imbue arrows with for example flame burst, which is cumulative with bow bonuses, and make up to +5 returning arrows, or how about imbuing arrows with slayer (vorpal effect).
Every class can use a bow, even use it well. But the true archer class is Ranger Arcane Archer, and anyone denying that have not tried one.
Fighter archers makes for good alternatives with the haste bonuses etc, but people tend to forget the imbuing arrows Arcane archers does, and the returning arrows, its impossible for other classes to compete with this.

Ystradmynach
05-22-2010, 07:38 AM
Regarding no Archer class. Its an absurd thing to say, when there is Arcane Archers around.
Being able to imbue arrows with for example flame burst, which is cumulative with bow bonuses, and make up to +5 returning arrows, or how about imbuing arrows with slayer (vorpal effect).
Every class can use a bow, even use it well. But the true archer class is Ranger Arcane Archer, and anyone denying that have not tried one.
Fighter archers makes for good alternatives with the haste bonuses etc, but people tend to forget the imbuing arrows Arcane archers does, and the returning arrows, its impossible for other classes to compete with this.

Arcane Archer is a racial PRE that just happens to also count as a ranger PRE. So you can make an Arcane Archer Kensai for example, and have it do more damage on average than an arcane archer ranger. Other possible Arcane Archer combinations include Frenzied bowbarian and AA favored souls. Hell, next update we will most likely have rogue mechanics running around doing full sneak attack damage on repeating heavy xbows (albeit they won't get AA benefits for doing so).

Conversely, even for a ranger arcane archer, it often makes sense to pick up a pair of melee weapons. So the other side of this is that no class or even PRE/class combo relies exclusively on archery in the game, especially if the players are any good. And yes, I play an arcane archer, it doesn't change what I just said.

Also, flaming burst sucks as an imbue, even at lower levels. You are much better off with acid imbue or force burst if going against acid immune mobs.

And finally, returning arrows is mostly a convenience once you get a greensteel bow, bow and arrow bonuses don't stack after all. It does save you money on bows before that though.

Visty
05-22-2010, 07:42 AM
or how about imbuing arrows with slayer (vorpal effect).

its NOT a vorpal effect, its just 500dmg on a vorpal strike

Gissur
05-22-2010, 09:02 AM
its NOT a vorpal effect, its just 500dmg on a vorpal strike

Which is better then a vorpal effect since it works also on bosses or undeads, contrary to vorpal.
Give me the name of any mob that would not die from a 500 damage hit:-) For bosses, sure not, or some named, but anyway, your right:-)

Regarding Kensai Arcane archers.
Sure, you might be able to pull it off. But if your dispelled or lack mana pots, you cant do much more.
Not to mention, you lack versatility among skills, ohh, and Rams Might is probably the best offensive buff in the game, due to stacking with other str enchancing attributes.
For short burst damage, its possible the kensai arcane archer would be on top, but they would be nothing but a bow using dpser, with marginally more damage then a ranger arcane archer, when using their CDs, but they would be nothing else. For melee Arcane Archers are as good as most other melee classes, especially if elf, with points spent in enchancing melee attacks further, and since Archers will have a str 30++ at end level.

Anyway its for another discussion, to compare Kensai AA with Ranger AA, Ranger AA is overall incredible much better.

Glenalth
05-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Give me the name of any mob that would not die from a 500 damage hit

Seriously? Nearly anything in Shavarath.