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View Full Version : Please Revisit Reaver's Refuge Crafting



Kintro
05-19-2010, 08:40 PM
I know this has been done to death but I'm a firm believer in making a noise or everyone will assume all is well :)

Also, my only complete set of Dragontouched Armour was made incomplete by ToD/Amrath additions and I'm still trying to fix it.

The Problem

This is probably the most complained about mechanic in the entire game:

1) Random runes with no way to identify them until they're used
- You can't help each other out, it only adds to the frustration to get what your mate wants
2) Lots of possible effects
- Plenty of them weaker versions of other effects (Combustion VII, Resonance VIII, Striding 20%, Improved False Life, etc).
3) Very few effects useful for one particular character
- Melee don't want caster effects, Barbarians don't want AC, Clerics don't want Incite, etc.
4) "Wasted time" running quests over and over with nothing to show at the end of it.
- Unless you get the 1 rune you want.

Point 2 was recently(ish) made worse with the addition of Incite, Healing Amplification and Arcane Spell Failure runes.

I remember (can't find the post right now) a developer commenting not long after this area was introduced saying he expected we'd have a couple of "half way" sets that were ok while we worked on the perfect combination of runes.

The implication here is that once you put in enough time you'll have the runes you want for that character and never need to go back. This simply isn't true. Your perfect combination of runes can change with every new item added to the game. For example, the addition of Amrath Con 6/GFL belts made the GFL Eldrich rune completely unnecessary for several builds. The ToD rings themselves may have made lots of peoples +6 stat Tempest runes redundant. Likewise for any number of Epic items.

The amount of grind needed to get your perfect set of runes is bad enough without considering possible changes/additions. Knowing all that grind may eventually be for naught is enough to make the task completely overwhelming.

In summary, any new character I level avoids this whole area beyond the usual XP runs. This, in my book, makes the crafting mechanic a failure.

The Solution?

Each time we craft a rune onto our armour give us the ability to identify any other runes with the same effect before they're removed from the chest. This would give some concrete progress and allow us to:

1) Help friends by giving them something we've pulled before and didn't want.
2) Narrow down the lists when purchasing runes with Draconic runes.
3) Make things easier in future when we need to change a tier to something we previously discarded instead of being back at square one.

Would this make things too easy? I'm not sure, you still need to get lucky and have the right rune drop to you or someone who's willing to give it to you.

Thanks to anyone who bothered reading this far, all feedback gratefully received :)

Phidius
05-19-2010, 08:47 PM
The True Problem

Players don't realize that the point of the Reaver's Refuge crafting is not, in fact, to enable them to get their dream armor. Rather, it's to enable them to get one set of "good enough", and to then keep them grinding the same quests over and over and over to buy the new content developers some breathing space.

My Recommended Solution

Make one set with the first non-worthless runes you get. As friends level up alts, run the quests with them again and work on the ever-elusive-perfect set.

Kintro
05-20-2010, 07:05 AM
My Recommended Solution

Make one set with the first non-worthless runes you get. As friends level up alts, run the quests with them again and work on the ever-elusive-perfect set.

There's no such thing as the ever-elusive-perfect set, only a set which happens to work for that character at that time. Generally it takes Eldrich and/or Tempest to make a set worth wearing and Sovereign to make it "perfect". As soon as any desired item is added which incorporates one of the effects you had on the first two tiers you're straight back to worthless.

My Monk, for instance, had Wisdom 6 and GFL on his Vestments. Amrath is released with Monk rings which have Wisdom 6 on them and craftable boosts to unarmed DPS. Now he needs to move the stats he had on rings (str/dex 6 + resistance) to the armour. What was perfect is now worthless if I want to use the newest items added to the game.

Similarly my FB Barbarian had Con 6 and GFL on his armour. It was awesome and worth the grind, now it's worthless and he's right back at square one as if he'd never set foot in the refuge before.

Another idea would be to make replaced runes go into your inventory Bound to Account instead of being destroyed. This would lessen the grind a little for people with many alts and people replacing once perfect stats while keeping things difficult for players with one character looking for their first set.

Khurse
05-20-2010, 07:20 AM
I like the OP's ideas (although I do not see the Devs ever implementing anything like it) I think a simple and easy fix would simply be to make the runes BTA. At least then players could move runes to other toons once they've found one that is good enough.

We'd still have to go through the "what kind of rune did I pull lottery" that (apparently?) the devs think is a great idea, but it would at least allow a better chance at getting something useful. Completely admit it only helps players with multiple toons though.

Arctigis
05-20-2010, 07:52 AM
Agree with most of the principles. Just make them identifiable and tradeable already (but not AH saleable)

Calaway
05-20-2010, 08:09 AM
Agree with most of the principles. Just make them identifiable and tradeable already (but not AH saleable)

This.

vVAnjilaVv
05-20-2010, 08:32 AM
Wait....what's that smell......OH!!!!.....it's a dead horse.....ewwwwww.


Sorry OP :D

I agree I wish they would do something to change it up some.

At least we have casual now to reflag and you can buy the flagging essences with Draconics after you have completed SoS at least one time.

Unfortunately, I think that's about as good as it's gonna get.

Eladiun
05-20-2010, 08:39 AM
The True Problem

Players don't realize that the point of the Reaver's Refuge crafting is not, in fact, to enable them to get their dream armor. Rather, it's to enable them to get one set of "good enough", and to then keep them grinding the same quests over and over and over to buy the new content developers some breathing space.

My Recommended Solution

Make one set with the first non-worthless runes you get. As friends level up alts, run the quests with them again and work on the ever-elusive-perfect set.

Bingo... give the man a prize.

Now, to the OP's point. I would pay to inspect the rune prior to placing the effect on my armor and I like the idea of inspected runes being bound to account. Still a grind but less of a grind.

Edit: one more thing, a slight rant... I'm not so much bothered by the grinding...I understand why it's there. What bothers me are the no grind mechanics clashing with the forced grinding. If you're going to make me grind for stuff, fine but don't then punish me for it with Ransack timers as well. Make a distinct choice...be no grind and remove the grind or accept the grind and remove Ransack.

Bradik_Losdar
05-20-2010, 10:04 AM
The True Problem

Players don't realize that the point of the Reaver's Refuge crafting is not, in fact, to enable them to get their dream armor. Rather, it's to enable them to get one set of "good enough", and to then keep them grinding the same quests over and over and over to buy the new content developers some breathing space.

Not entirely true.

It may have become that (because the Devs currently have other priorities/projects they are being smacked around to do), but originally it was designed to keep us busy during the 'hell year of no content'.

Y'all remember that happy little stint where we all weathered the storm of Module 9 "Coming Soon" (TM) month after month after month after month....while Turbine and Atari were fighting it out behind the scenes and the free-to-play model was being ramped up?

The folks at Turbine KNEW there was going to be a protracted period where they were going to do nothing with the live game to give them more leverage in the negotiations with Atari. So they came up with this endless grind lottery system. (However I think even they were surprised at the length of time it took to hash things out with the morons at Atari.)

And of course once that problem was resolved, DDO was immediately switched to the F2P system and the dev teams were buried with work to keep up with the huge influx of new players. They just haven't been given the time to revisit the Refuge and "switch on" the runes so they are identifiable/recognizable.

Hopefully now that things have settled and Update 5 gets pushed live they will have time to (Fernando, are you and your wife listening?) bump the Refuge rune fix much higher up the priority list.

ArichValtrahn
05-20-2010, 10:09 AM
I dont even care if they are tradeable. Just let me see what the rune will give before its looted. Im happy enough swapping them around with other people who happen to be in the group at that time.

Valindria
05-20-2010, 10:17 AM
Someone with some time should search and see how many threads have been started with this topic and the total number of posts in each thread. I'd love to see the stats on that.

Fully support Bind to Account (instead of char) and some way to identify. At the very least bind to account would be a HUGE improvement. This would be for Drac, Eldritch, Tempest, and Sov runes. It's such a minor change with a big return.

I only have 1 high level character. My bard's armor is +3 Cha skills, +1 exceptional Cha, Destruction. My friends/guild mates are not happy with their armor. I would love to help run the quests but there is not as much motivation for me to do it because I am pretty happy over all. In fact if I never make it to tier 3 on my GS it's pretty much perfect for me. If I knew I could save them up and help craft for an alternate I would run the quests to help out all the time.

Other ideas include: being able to identify in chest, Once you have used a rune it identifies for your account, You can spend 5-10 Drac runes to identify 1 rune.


A special Rune bag similar to the tapestry bag. It would be like:

0/5 ????
1/5 ????
1/5 Striding 20%
0/5 Striding 25%

The 1st one has never been found or used, The 2nd one has been found be never used, The 3rd one has been found and been used(they have an extra one), the 4th one as been found and used (no extra).


Another idea is when you use the rune it identifies and gives the the option to apply it to the armor or destroy the rune. If you have a rogue and you were to add Incite to you armor, they would rather destroy it then add it.

Beherit_Baphomar
05-20-2010, 10:22 AM
The problem with DT armor is not the grind, it cannot be called a grind.

A grind would be collect 5000 Tempest runes and get your armor. What we have is collect 5000 Tempest runes and maybe not get your armor.

The problem is there is no end in sight, it could be, quite literally, an eternity before you get what you're looking for.

Right now I'm trying to get Earthgrab guard and I've used maybe 40 sov runes and have yet to see it. I've saw more caster junk than melee junk.

I can grind like a plat farmer if I have to but this isn't grind, this is rediculous.

Fix it Turbine, isn't it obviously by the number of complaints that this is something people want?

ludoticces
05-20-2010, 10:35 AM
I must agree with the op and others that this needs to be addressed by the Devs, hopefully sooner rather than later. DT armor is a powerful item for all classes if you have the correct effects on it. I don't know if it would be possible to implement my solution to the problem. I would like to be able to pull any rune only one time. It would work like this, you run Prey go the the crafting device and put your rune in and craft. Most likely you didn't get the effect you wanted. So you go run Pry again, you wear your Dt armor when you loot your rune the system recongnizes the effect on your armor and gives you a different rune with a different effect than the one you have on your armor. This would still require alot of grinding as you my have to run the same quest many times, I believe that Tempest and Eldritch have somewhere around 28 different effects. I look at this solution as a win for both Dev and player, will still have to grind just not as much ( Devs win ) but we would know that there is a finish line to this grind ( players win ). What do you think can it be done and is it a solid solution to the problem ?

Flame on flamers

Thrudh
05-20-2010, 10:40 AM
I think a simple and easy fix would simply be to make the runes BTA. At least then players could move runes to other toons once they've found one that is good enough.

I'd like this... just so I could run all my characters through the Refuge (like I do the Shroud), not just the one character who needs the set...

Kadran
05-20-2010, 10:42 AM
The problem is there is no end in sight, it could be, quite literally, an eternity before you get what you're looking for.



Come on people! This is simple probability. Don't get impatient and you WILL get what you want. I'm at work and don't have the exact numbers readily available, but if I recall correctly there are a total of:
Eldritch - 25
Tempest - 24
Sov - 33

Different possibilities. Solution: do NOT turn them in until you've collected all 25 possible eldritch runes. Now you HAVE to have whatever it is you're hoping to get on it. More good news: once you get your Eldritch set, you can trade your Eldritch Runes for Tempest Runes, repeating the exact same process.

Yes, this is a grind, but it is not, "quite literally an eternity." The only way this is true is that they are still random, but the same could be said for any piece of raid loot, or any named item. Play smarter, not harder.

Edit: I still would like to see what the rune does once I've already used 1 rune of the same type. Even if I have to pay an NPC to identify it.

ArichValtrahn
05-20-2010, 10:50 AM
Solution: do NOT turn them in until you've collected all 25 possible eldritch runes. Now you HAVE to have whatever it is you're hoping to get on it.

It doesnt work like that. You could, however unlikely, get the same mod 25 times in a row.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 10:52 AM
It doesnt work like that. You could, however unlikely, get the same mod 25 times in a row.

Oh trust me, it does. Any Rune that is stacked in your inventory/ingredients bag ***IS THE SAME EXACT RUNE AS ALL THE OTHERS IN THAT STACK*** So you wait. Until you get 25 DIFFERENT stacks of Eldritch Runes. Presto! You HAVE the rune you want, at least one. Hopefully you use it early, and can then convert your remaining runes to Tempest.

Josh
05-20-2010, 10:55 AM
Come on people! This is simple probability. Don't get impatient and you WILL get what you want. I'm at work and don't have the exact numbers readily available, but if I recall correctly there are a total of:
Eldritch - 25
Tempest - 24
Sov - 33

Different possibilities. Solution: do NOT turn them in until you've collected all 25 possible eldritch runes. Now you HAVE to have whatever it is you're hoping to get on it. More good news: once you get your Eldritch set, you can trade your Eldritch Runes for Tempest Runes, repeating the exact same process.

Yes, this is a grind, but it is not, "quite literally an eternity." The only way this is true is that they are still random, but the same could be said for any piece of raid loot, or any named item. Play smarter, not harder.

Edit: I still would like to see what the rune does once I've already used 1 rune of the same type. Even if I have to pay an NPC to identify it.

This is about as much of a solution as chopping your arm off because it's on fire.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 10:58 AM
This is about as much of a solution as chopping your arm off because it's on fire.

That's a horrible analogy. Sticking with the arm on fire analogy, it's more like declining medical attention initially because it's more likely to get screwed up, thus taking it longer to heal. Instead, you opt to wait until it starts to heal on its' own before you do anything about it.

Nott
05-20-2010, 10:59 AM
do NOT turn them in until you've collected all 25 possible eldritch runes. Now you HAVE to have whatever it is you're hoping to get on itIt's been pointed out in this thread that the desired armor effects change with new item introductions to the game. If the only salvation anyone has is collect 25 different eldritch runes, 24 tempest, 33 sovereign, then burn them till you get what you wanted... what happens when you need to change?

Lack of an ability to identify runes is pretty non player friendly. At a minimum, in the absence of identification (that does not rely on bag placement and huge inventory space requirements) I should be given an opportunity to confirm/refuse the upgrade at the time of use (with refusals causing the rune to be consumed anyway).

Kadran
05-20-2010, 11:01 AM
Seriously though. Get a guild. Work on ONE persons armor. 6 people run Monestary. 10> min completions. 2 Eldritch runes per person x 6 players = 12 runes per run. It does not take very long to get your Eldritch runes.

donotdirect1
05-20-2010, 11:04 AM
What I find silly is when you turn in 50 runs to choose an eldritch and they give you a list that all looks the same.

That immediately looks to me like the original idea was to have the runes be identifiable. Somewhere along the line they just seemed to get lazy and never fix the mechanic cause they saw how many times people would run the SAME quest to get what they wanted.

Dragontouched crafting is ****. Runes should be identifiable. But I guess what it really comes down to is we should have REAL crafting in game... artificers too. Wishful thinking.

By the way I totally think the ransack is **** too. Set us out on incredible grinds for the same thing, and then give us a ransack timer that lasts longer than the raid timer? Poorly implemented. When the quest timer is up, the ransack should be up. That simple to me.

By the way I think dungeon alert, while not a terrible idea, is horribly implemented. Enemies that can no longer see you (or party members) should not be worth even half of their dungeon alert. There should be some point in outrunning.

Did I just beat THREE dead horses? I think so... I wish they'd go off to the glue factory and come back as something useful.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 11:05 AM
It's been pointed out in this thread that the desired armor effects change with new item introductions to the game. If the only salvation anyone has is collect 25 different eldritch runes, 24 tempest, 33 sovereign, then burn them till you get what you wanted... what happens when you need to change?

Lack of an ability to identify runes is pretty non player friendly. At a minimum, in the absence of identification (that does not rely on bag placement and huge inventory space requirements) I should be given an opportunity to confirm/refuse the upgrade at the time of use (with refusals causing the rune to be consumed anyway).

I agree there should be a way to identify the runes. I was merely pointing out that it's not "literally an eternity" as some posters here believe. If you try to upgrade your armor every time you get a rune, you're only hurting yourself. I posted the method to get what you want. If you want to get a new effect, you get to start all over, or live without. The game changes constantly, and you cannot expect your Dragon Touched Armor to remain the most optimal gear.

I farmed a long time for a Bloodstone. If they added a new trinket that is Seeker +8, would I want it? Yes. Would it make what I have currently suck? No. Learn the difference and stop complaining they didn't hand you the best armor in the game.

Elof_X
05-20-2010, 11:06 AM
This is about as much of a solution as chopping your arm off because it's on fire.

Actually, what he stated is exactly what I did, and I got exactly what I wanted on my DT armor by keeping careful track of my rune stacks.

Doesn't mean the concept still isn't a pain in the arse though, especially if you want to change the DT item again.

sigtrent
05-20-2010, 11:06 AM
I dont even care if they are tradeable. Just let me see what the rune will give before its looted. Im happy enough swapping them around with other people who happen to be in the group at that time.

I agree with this, although my addition would be that you can only see what it is if its a rune you have already used at some point. It is supposed to be random, but the random gets tiresome pretty quickly. That would offer a random up to a point kind of mechanic.

Personally I think peoples strategy here is poor... I decided to approach it like this.

1. Get armor
2. Fill with one of each stone.
3. If a stone is utterly worthless, replace it until it is at least decent.
4. Repeat

The key difference is I don't just work on one suit, I have several, each a bit different and thus useful with different sets of gear. One becomes obsolete and I still have many others, I can even switch out depending on the quest needs.

A suit only costs 50 runes, which is not very expensive and keeps you from wasting decent but not optimal runes on them. If you get one close to perfect you can make that your project armor if you really want to.

Josh
05-20-2010, 11:14 AM
Actually, what he stated is exactly what I did, and I got exactly what I wanted on my DT armor by keeping careful track of my rune stacks.

Doesn't mean the concept still isn't a pain in the arse though, especially if you want to change the DT item again.

What he said does in fact work. In fact, it works just like what I said.

Just because something "works", doesn't make it a "solution" IMO.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 11:22 AM
What he said does in fact work. In fact, it works just like what I said.

Just because something "works", doesn't make it a "solution" IMO.

I posted a pretty detailed how-to here, that some people were unaware would work. Now, once you've seen this solution you think, "That's not good enough for me, I need my armor NOW." That is not my problem. You've been informed. You know and understand that in all likelihood this is the way it will always be, and Turbine will not be changing this.

You're more than welcome to complain/vent on the forums, and I hope Turbine notices you and changes this. I just wouldn't hold my breath. As has been mentioned this is not the first thread about this very same topic, over the span of over a year (probably longer, but I'm bad with timelines. ;-) They have not taken notice yet, and I really doubt they ever will. And even if they do, there will be people complaining they revisited old content instead of creating new stuff. :-) Good luck on your soap box.

Newtons_Apple
05-20-2010, 11:23 AM
I know this has been done to death but I'm a firm believer in making a noise or everyone will assume all is well :)

Also, my only complete set of Dragontouched Armour was made incomplete by ToD/Amrath additions and I'm still trying to fix it.

The Problem

This is probably the most complained about mechanic in the entire game:

1) Random runes with no way to identify them until they're used
- You can't help each other out, it only adds to the frustration to get what your mate wants
2) Lots of possible effects
- Plenty of them weaker versions of other effects (Combustion VII, Resonance VIII, Striding 20%, Improved False Life, etc).
3) Very few effects useful for one particular character
- Melee don't want caster effects, Barbarians don't want AC, Clerics don't want Incite, etc.
4) "Wasted time" running quests over and over with nothing to show at the end of it.
- Unless you get the 1 rune you want.

Point 2 was recently(ish) made worse with the addition of Incite, Healing Amplification and Arcane Spell Failure runes.

I remember (can't find the post right now) a developer commenting not long after this area was introduced saying he expected we'd have a couple of "half way" sets that were ok while we worked on the perfect combination of runes.

The implication here is that once you put in enough time you'll have the runes you want for that character and never need to go back. This simply isn't true. Your perfect combination of runes can change with every new item added to the game. For example, the addition of Amrath Con 6/GFL belts made the GFL Eldrich rune completely unnecessary for several builds. The ToD rings themselves may have made lots of peoples +6 stat Tempest runes redundant. Likewise for any number of Epic items.

The amount of grind needed to get your perfect set of runes is bad enough without considering possible changes/additions. Knowing all that grind may eventually be for naught is enough to make the task completely overwhelming.

In summary, any new character I level avoids this whole area beyond the usual XP runs. This, in my book, makes the crafting mechanic a failure.

The Solution?

Each time we craft a rune onto our armour give us the ability to identify any other runes with the same effect before they're removed from the chest. This would give some concrete progress and allow us to:

1) Help friends by giving them something we've pulled before and didn't want.
2) Narrow down the lists when purchasing runes with Draconic runes.
3) Make things easier in future when we need to change a tier to something we previously discarded instead of being back at square one.

Would this make things too easy? I'm not sure, you still need to get lucky and have the right rune drop to you or someone who's willing to give it to you.

Thanks to anyone who bothered reading this far, all feedback gratefully received :)


I dont even care if they are tradeable. Just let me see what the rune will give before its looted. Im happy enough swapping them around with other people who happen to be in the group at that time.

These quotes help me make a point about all this. If the runes were identifiable in chest, there would be more incentive for people to fill groups for these runs.

The way it usually works now is I'll run with maybe 2 or 3 other guildies in those quests and not bother getting anyone else.

A new mechanic like the one suggested above might encourage full party grouping, which I believe is on of the core principles of this game.

Khanyth
05-20-2010, 11:30 AM
Step #1: Run Prey on the Hunter a zillion times to farm Tempest runes. Remember to zerg like hell and do it on casual.

Step #2: After the zillionth time, buy a DT armor and then turn in the rest of your Draco runes to buy Eldrich

Step #3: Play the slot machine with your Tempest runes until you get a mod that you like.

Step #4: Grind 3 tempest into 1 Sovereign and see what you get. Repeat as many times as desired or necessary.

Step #5: Do your eldrich's to get that mod.

It's not that hard. And the "not knowing what mod you'll get" is a risk... similar to running Reavers 30 times and never getting Madstone Boots to drop. Similar to a slot machine in Vegas.

EDIT: I'm on Orien, and I've only had 4 or 5 times that I couldn't get a group to do this... out of 50 attempts. The whole "I can't find a group arguement" isn't that valid.

It's not that hard to get runes. Really. It's not. Just get 5 other dedicated farmers.

It's not worth changing at all. In fact, it's worth leaving alone.

Eladiun
05-20-2010, 11:33 AM
Step #1: Run Prey on the Hunter a zillion times to farm Tempest runes. Remember to zerg like hell and do it on casual.

It's not that hard to get runes. Really. It's not. Just get 5 other dedicated farmers.

If you're following step 1, you don't really even need 5.

Nott
05-20-2010, 11:35 AM
I posted a pretty detailed how-to here, that some people were unaware would work. Now, once you've seen this solution you think, "That's not good enough for me, I need my armor NOW."What you posted is news to some, but most people either already read about it or figured it out on their own -- it's been posted several times in the past, and its really pretty easy to realize without someone else suggesting it (unless you immediately upgrade every rune you receive).

I haven't seen anyone saying they need their armor NOW, but I've seen you make the same accusation more than once. I only see players asking for a little ground based in reasonable justification. I agree with you in that these posts are likely falling on deaf Turbine ears, however all people are asking for is a way in which they can feel like they have slightly more control than a roll of the dice offers. In my view, the best suggestion has been the one to allow runes that a character has already crafted with to be identified to that character. This doesn't allow for blanket identification and it allows the character to learn from their experiences.

Arctigis
05-20-2010, 11:38 AM
What I find silly is when you turn in 50 runs to choose an eldritch and they give you a list that all looks the same.


Just a thought. Is that list always the same? perhaps the position in the list produces the same effect every time.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 11:42 AM
What you posted is news to some, but most people either already read about it or figured it out on their own -- it's been posted several times in the past, and its really pretty easy to realize without someone else suggesting it (unless you immediately upgrade every rune you receive).

I haven't seen anyone saying they need their armor NOW, but I've seen you make the same accusation more than once. I only see players asking for a little ground based in reasonable justification. I agree with you in that these posts are likely falling on deaf Turbine ears, however all people are asking for is a way in which they can feel like they have slightly more control than a roll of the dice offers. In my view, the best suggestion has been the one to allow runes that a character has already crafted with to be identified to that character. This doesn't allow for blanket identification and it allows the character to learn from their experiences.

From the OP, "4) "Wasted time" running quests over and over with nothing to show at the end of it.
- Unless you get the 1 rune you want."

I was merely pointing out that this is just like raid loot. What do I get from running the reaver if no loot drops? A waste of 15 minutes I can never get back, some loot to sell for 1k plat, and a 3 day timer. The Refuge is NOT a raid, and thus can be farmed repeatedly. If you're not willing to put in the time to get the proper runes, then you cannot complain about not getting the best upgrades. Think of it as a Shroud w/o a timer. How many runs are you willing to do before you pull your shards of power, or you last large devil scale? Is the GS Item worth those runs? Do you get anything else from them?

This is a game people. You don't really get anything from playing. You character can level up to 20, you can gain items, and money. That's about it.

Bradik_Losdar
05-20-2010, 11:45 AM
I was merely pointing out that it's not "literally an eternity" as some posters here believe.

But you are entirely wrong there.

I could, because of the completely random generation, quite literally pull the exact same rune 5000 times in a row (as B had mentioned above).

What's my chance at pulling it the next time I get a rune?

Exactly the same!

So now I have 5001 of the same rune and still have an equal chance of pulling it again the next run. It's total BS.

Now I agree, with the laws of probability, your system of collecting and saving every single rune in the game and THEN applying them to the armor SHOULD work (GODS, but that is a LOT of grinding!!!). But there are always going to be those folks who are just plain unlucky. And regardless of how hard they work, will NEVER EVER get, or be any closer to getting, the rune the want.

Josh
05-20-2010, 11:53 AM
I posted a pretty detailed how-to here, that some people were unaware would work. Now, once you've seen this solution you think, "That's not good enough for me, I need my armor NOW." That is not my problem. You've been informed. You know and understand that in all likelihood this is the way it will always be, and Turbine will not be changing this.

You're more than welcome to complain/vent on the forums, and I hope Turbine notices you and changes this. I just wouldn't hold my breath. As has been mentioned this is not the first thread about this very same topic, over the span of over a year (probably longer, but I'm bad with timelines. ;-) They have not taken notice yet, and I really doubt they ever will. And even if they do, there will be people complaining they revisited old content instead of creating new stuff. :-) Good luck on your soap box.

First of all, I'm no the OP, so it's not my soap box.

That being said, I agree with you 100% that this never, ever going to get changed. It's been beaten to death *** nary a peep from a single developer.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 11:54 AM
But you are entirely wrong there.

I could, because of the completely random generation, quite literally pull the exact same rune 5000 times in a row (as B had mentioned above).

What's my chance at pulling it the next time I get a rune?

Exactly the same!

So now I have 5001 of the same rune and still have an equal chance of pulling it again the next run. It's total BS.

Now I agree, with the laws of probability, your system of collecting and saving every single rune in the game and THEN applying them to the armor SHOULD work (GODS, but that is a LOT of grinding!!!). But there are always going to be those folks who are just plain unlucky. And regardless of how hard they work, will NEVER EVER get, or be any closer to getting, the rune the want.

I'm working on my 3rd set of Dragon Touched Armor. My first 2 set, neither had more than 7 of the same eldritch rune. My 3rd currently has no more than 3 of any given eldritch rune, and I have 19 different eldritch runes at the moment. It's really not as bad as people are making it sound.

Samadhi
05-20-2010, 11:56 AM
1. I actually like the RR style of crafting more than most folks - and far more than I like shroud / tower crafting.

2. I do still agree that runes should either be identifiable in the chest, or tradable, and I think everyone would be happy.

Bradik_Losdar
05-20-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm working on my 3rd set of Dragon Touched Armor. My first 2 set, neither had more than 7 of the same eldritch rune. My 3rd currently has no more than 3 of any given eldritch rune, and I have 19 different eldritch runes at the moment. It's really not as bad as people are making it sound.

So you've been one of the lucky ones. ;)

augie
05-20-2010, 11:59 AM
Come on people! This is simple probability. Don't get impatient and you WILL get what you want. I'm at work and don't have the exact numbers readily available, but if I recall correctly there are a total of:
Eldritch - 25
Tempest - 24
Sov - 33

Different possibilities. Solution: do NOT turn them in until you've collected all 25 possible eldritch runes. Now you HAVE to have whatever it is you're hoping to get on it. More good news: once you get your Eldritch set, you can trade your Eldritch Runes for Tempest Runes, repeating the exact same process.

Yes, this is a grind, but it is not, "quite literally an eternity." The only way this is true is that they are still random, but the same could be said for any piece of raid loot, or any named item. Play smarter, not harder.


I know what you're saying but while that may be a mathematical "solution", to me that's quite unrealistic. You're not going to get all 25 different Eldritch effects on 25 runs. In fact, it would be surprising to get 25 different Eldritch's in 50-60 runs. Realistically, you'd probably have 18-20 different ones in yer bag, some stacked 6 or 7 high. Well, except for the Lionheart stack. That will be the pile of 15. Now there's one incredibly useful effect... :rolleyes: But I digress...

I might hold off until I get maybe 2 or 3 runes but then I'm headin right to the altar to see what I got. I've gotten the effect I've wanted on the first or second tries before and just having the chance of getting the hell out of Reaver's Refuge that much sooner makes it worth the gamble.

After the first ransack round of Refuge quests, if I don't have the effect I want I cut my losses and get the heck out of there and do something actually worth the time. I go back there occasionally, usually to help a friend/guildy flag which is just long enough to remember exactly why I left in the first place.

Epic quests are arguably a better use of time and effort as you can acquire almost all the same desired effects in a predictable and selectable manner, all the while having a chance at decent loot, scrolls/shards/seals and an overall increased challenge.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 12:04 PM
snip.

see post 17

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2971262&postcount=17

Josh
05-20-2010, 12:09 PM
I know what you're saying but while that may be a mathematical "solution", to me that's quite unrealistic. You're not going to get all 25 different Eldritch effects on 25 runs. In fact, it would be surprising to get 25 different Eldritch's in 50-60 runs. Realistically, you'd probably have 18-20 different ones in yer bag, some stacked 6 or 7 high. Well, except for the Lionheart stack. That will be the pile of 15. Now there's one incredibly useful effect... :rolleyes: But I digress...

I might hold off until I get maybe 2 or 3 runes but then I'm headin right to the altar to see what I got. I've gotten the effect I've wanted on the first or second tries before and just having the chance of getting the hell out of Reaver's Refuge that much sooner makes it worth the gamble.

After the first ransack round of Refuge quests, if I don't have the effect I want I cut my losses and get the heck out of there and do something actually worth the time. I go back there occasionally, usually to help a friend/guildy flag which is just long enough to remember exactly why I left in the first place.

Epic quests are arguably a better use of time and effort as you can acquire almost all the same desired effects in a predictable and selectable manner, all the while having a chance at decent loot, scrolls/shards/seals and an overall increased challenge.

Not to mention the fact that if ther runes don't all have the same probability to drop it will take even longer to get the one you want. Since the developers don't think we are worthy to share those details with it's all just opinion.

augie
05-20-2010, 12:24 PM
see post 17

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2971262&postcount=17

I must not be following or something as yer point is still flying over my head right now.

To me, Post #17 is still saying the recommended way to do it is to convert doubled-up Eldritchs to Tempests (a wise idea) but still grind away until you have 25 different Eld's before turning them in, to which I point back to my original statement.

Waiting until ya have 25 different stacks would seem somewhat more feasible if it was possible to "trade" an Eldritch rune to the NPC by the altars and see if the new one he gives you back creates a new stack or doubles-up on another stack. From a mathematical standpoint, one could get all the effects by getting 25 runes and stand there at the NPC trading away until all the doubles are gone and you're left with 25 singles.

Halock
05-20-2010, 12:43 PM
Just a thought. Is that list always the same? perhaps the position in the list produces the same effect every time.

It does not, i tested this myself, bought 3 eldritch from the top slot, all different, then 3 more from the bottom slot, all different, then 2 more from the 3'rd to last slot, both different :)

The stacking them up till you have a bunch of different stacks is the best way to go about it sadly, good thing about doing it this way as well is that you can always keep the ones that you know you might use again or need to swap, so changing up your runes becomes a tad less of a pain ( for eldritch and tempest at least, since u can get an abundance of those easily )

Imo once you use a rune you should be able to recognize it when you see it again, that or a suggestion i saw elsewhere at the very least , which is give the option to proceed with the rune swap after you see what it is you will be swapping too, click yes swap, click no, lose rune, but keep what you had, so u dont get a downgrade, which just plain sucks.

Valindria
05-20-2010, 12:52 PM
It does not, i tested this myself, bought 3 eldritch from the top slot, all different, then 3 more from the bottom slot, all different, then 2 more from the 3'rd to last slot, both different :)

The stacking them up till you have a bunch of different stacks is the best way to go about it sadly, good thing about doing it this way as well is that you can always keep the ones that you know you might use again or need to swap, so changing up your runes becomes a tad less of a pain ( for eldritch and tempest at least, since u can get an abundance of those easily )

Imo once you use a rune you should be able to recognize it when you see it again, that or a suggestion i saw elsewhere at the very least , which is give the option to proceed with the rune swap after you see what it is you will be swapping too, click yes swap, click no, lose rune, but keep what you had, so u dont get a downgrade, which just plain sucks.

Do all the runes show up at the collector. If you got 1250 (25X50) Drac runes could you just buy each one of the Eldritch or does the window close when you turn 1 in (making the list random again)?

DartanTR
05-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Devs,

Please make all runes tradeable and make it so you know what enchantment they give. This will be this adventure pack worth much more $$.

Valindria
05-20-2010, 01:16 PM
Just searching the suggestion forum for "DT Armor" I got the following from the 1st two pages : 11 threads with 167 replies (so 178 posts).

Thread/Repilies
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=249699&highlight=DT+Armor 44
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247209&highlight=DT+Armor 23
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=245568&highlight=DT+Armor 12
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=241832&highlight=DT+Armor 35
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=229879&highlight=DT+Armor 8
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=233292&highlight=DT+Armor 4
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=231520&highlight=DT+Armor 7
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=224946&highlight=DT+Armor 21
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=221986&highlight=DT+Armor 1
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=219242&highlight=DT+Armor 7
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218532&highlight=DT+Armor 5

In General:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183446&highlight=DT+Armor 57

Kintro
05-20-2010, 01:20 PM
I know what you're saying but while that may be a mathematical "solution", to me that's quite unrealistic. You're not going to get all 25 different Eldritch effects on 25 runs. In fact, it would be surprising to get 25 different Eldritch's in 50-60 runs. Realistically, you'd probably have 18-20 different ones in yer bag, some stacked 6 or 7 high. Well, except for the Lionheart stack. That will be the pile of 15. Now there's one incredibly useful effect... :rolleyes: But I digress...



Even if you did get one of each before crafting you'd be back at square one if you needed to change something in the future. Taking this into account you might want to keep 1 of each so you can use a spreadsheet to identify any new ones you pull.

It would take at least 50 runs to do this just for Eldritch, more likely lots more.


I was merely pointing out that this is just like raid loot. What do I get from running the reaver if no loot drops? A waste of 15 minutes I can never get back, some loot to sell for 1k plat, and a 3 day timer.

You get one more towards 20 and an increased chance of getting what you want.

Kale_Hagan
05-20-2010, 01:30 PM
You want to fix DT crafting? Make it a true grind.

Switch the mechanic to the same as epic crafting. Turn in x eldritch runes for a choice of effects. Same for tempest or sovereign.

And for those who like the lottery, leave that mechanic in. You want to be surprised? Craft your single sovereign rune into your armor.

PLEASE FIX THIS.

Halock
05-20-2010, 01:31 PM
Do all the runes show up at the collector. If you got 1250 (25X50) Drac runes could you just buy each one of the Eldritch or does the window close when you turn 1 in (making the list random again)?

Afraid the window closes and you have to talk to the guy again, who spawns a fresh batch, also it doesnt spawn all of the possible runes, think it was only 15, not near the total amount amount anyways.

SickCat
05-20-2010, 02:04 PM
You want to fix DT crafting? Make it a true grind.

Switch the mechanic to the same as epic crafting. Turn in x eldritch runes for a choice of effects. Same for tempest or sovereign.

And for those who like the lottery, leave that mechanic in. You want to be surprised? Craft your single sovereign rune into your armor.

PLEASE FIX THIS.

I was actually coming to post and suggest this same kind of thing. While I got +5 resist on my rogue's DT on his first try, I've farmed up over 100 E runes for another character with no resist...it's boggling my mind, and beyond frustrating. I would gladly farm up 20 runes to turn in for the one I want instead of being let down over and over.

Josh
05-21-2010, 02:29 PM
You want to fix DT crafting? Make it a true grind.

Switch the mechanic to the same as epic crafting. Turn in x eldritch runes for a choice of effects. Same for tempest or sovereign.

And for those who like the lottery, leave that mechanic in. You want to be surprised? Craft your single sovereign rune into your armor.

PLEASE FIX THIS.

Hmm, I would actually prefer this to the current system. Good call.

Josh
05-26-2010, 11:28 PM
That's a horrible analogy. Sticking with the arm on fire analogy, it's more like declining medical attention initially because it's more likely to get screwed up, thus taking it longer to heal. Instead, you opt to wait until it starts to heal on its' own before you do anything about it.

You missed the point. Cutting the arm off prevents the rest of the body from burning, so yes, that is a solution to not being burnt to a crisp. It works.

Is it a good solution? Most assuredly not. Same with the "just get every token:" argument. Sure it works, but it's far, far from being ideal.