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View Full Version : Add martial weapon prof. to warchanter



Cyr
05-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Simple suggestion:

* Add all martial and simple weapon profiency to warchanter tier 1 or have a new enhancment which costs 1 AP which grants this and has a prereq of warchanter tier 1 for it.

The logic for this is simple. Master's Touch makes the game look like trash everytime you cast it. Warchanters almost universally use weapons that bards are not normally profiecent in. Some guildies have gone so far as to justify a splash of another class just so they don't have to cast this spell.

Alternativly, fixing the Master's Touch lag would work also, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Angelus_dead
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Or make Master's Touch immune to the regular effects that dispel buffs.

Cyr
05-19-2010, 04:07 PM
Or make Master's Touch immune to the regular effects that dispel buffs.

Actually that is the least important part of the equation. The real annoyance is every time you shrine and enter a dungeon hitting it and lagging out. Then if you happen to die lagging out. Because these things happen a lot more often then getting dispelled.

WolfSpirit
05-19-2010, 04:13 PM
I use masters touch on my 6 Bard everytime, of course for the very same reason you describe. Pure Bard Warchanter.
But on my High end system, I hardly Notice the lag. It lasts ONE second or less, No exaggeration. Its there for sure, I see/feel it but its not even close to bothersome for me. Wonder why its so pronounced for you? Perhaps System? Not sure the difference, but it must be a player system issue. Personally, I love the masters touch spell, I love to see some players splash fighter for Martial Weapons without even looking at the spell. whats one more buff among all the others?

Cyr
05-20-2010, 09:22 AM
I use masters touch on my 6 Bard everytime, of course for the very same reason you describe. Pure Bard Warchanter.
But on my High end system, I hardly Notice the lag. It lasts ONE second or less, No exaggeration. Its there for sure, I see/feel it but its not even close to bothersome for me. Wonder why its so pronounced for you? Perhaps System? Not sure the difference, but it must be a player system issue. Personally, I love the masters touch spell, I love to see some players splash fighter for Martial Weapons without even looking at the spell. whats one more buff among all the others?

If you can even see it at all on a high end system then there is serious issues with the coding involved. It is doing something that should be very simple. It is adding prof. for those weapons. Somehow, the code involved for loading/unloading prof. is using way more resources then it should. Players have told me that they have splashed a warrior class knowing full well what Master's Touch did specifically to avoid casting the spell due to the lag.

Blaming a player's system for something that should take a miniscule amount of processing power is fairly bad form. Particularly on a game like DDO which is many years old. If you are interested I am running a system that is one year old. It was not top end, but it certainly was not lower end either. I have a cable internet connection. I also have a video card that retailed for about $125 when I got it a year ago. I have ts running in the background, but nothing else when I play DDO and played for years without anything in the background running.

Also to note, my bard has lived at the level cap for a long time now. Raids are the main lag offenders in game and depending upon how hectic things are in a raid the master's touch lag can be less then one second or upwards of five seconds. Considering you could lag out for 20+ seconds on a level 6 bard and it would not matter as much I can certainly see how this could be a non issue to you also...

Impaqt
05-20-2010, 09:26 AM
I use masters touch on my 6 Bard everytime, of course for the very same reason you describe. Pure Bard Warchanter.
But on my High end system, I hardly Notice the lag. It lasts ONE second or less, No exaggeration. Its there for sure, I see/feel it but its not even close to bothersome for me. Wonder why its so pronounced for you? Perhaps System? Not sure the difference, but it must be a player system issue. Personally, I love the masters touch spell, I love to see some players splash fighter for Martial Weapons without even looking at the spell. whats one more buff among all the others?


The Lag from MT gets progressively worse as you level. At level 20, its a solid 5-8 seconds.

Kadran
05-20-2010, 09:28 AM
Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh. That's what my bard did, and it works great. :-)

Edit: While my Bard no longer uses Masters Touch, this spell is a reall issue for any battle caster (be it Bard, Sorc, or Wiz.) I don't think giving Bards proficiency is the answer, as this would still leave Sorcs and Wiz in the dark. How about just fixing the spell to not have an 8 second pause every time it's cast or expires?

Aerendil
05-20-2010, 09:31 AM
Or grant Martial Proficiency to Warchanters at tier I or II of the PrE.
Problem solved.

SquelchHU
05-20-2010, 09:35 AM
Since I highly doubt they'll make inspire better at Warchanter 2/3 they probably will add martial proficiencies to it to fit the theme instead. Of course it's a toss up as to whether this will happen before, or after 12/21/2012...

Missing_Minds
05-20-2010, 09:43 AM
The Lag from MT gets progressively worse as you level. At level 20, its a solid 5-8 seconds.

Really? I suffer maybe 1/2 to 3/4s second lag from MT on a system that was built for playing DDO... back in 2006.

Maybe being in the middle of combat when it vanishes makes it worse?

I have no reason to believe that you or others are lying, but it makes me wonder what the heck is going on because I never see lag that bad what so ever. Granted my comparisons have been wizard based and not bard. Class difference? You'd think a wizard would be worse.

Aashrym
05-20-2010, 09:47 AM
Since I highly doubt they'll make inspire better at Warchanter 2/3 they probably will add martial proficiencies to it to fit the theme instead. Of course it's a toss up as to whether this will happen before, or after 12/21/2012...

+1 for the 2012 reference :D

Attack speed bonuses and martial weapon proficiency make more sense for the higher tier warchanters than increasing the inspire courage bonus.

Cyr
05-20-2010, 09:50 AM
Really? I suffer maybe 1/2 to 3/4s second lag from MT on a system that was built for playing DDO... back in 2006.

Maybe being in the middle of combat when it vanishes makes it worse?

I have no reason to believe that you or others are lying, but it makes me wonder what the heck is going on because I never see lag that bad what so ever. Granted my comparisons have been wizard based and not bard. Class difference? You'd think a wizard would be worse.

It is much worse when you die in heavy raid combat. My experience is on a bard. Not sure why that would make a difference, but it certainly is where I have heard the most vocal complaints from.

Impaqt
05-20-2010, 09:51 AM
Really? I suffer maybe 1/2 to 3/4s second lag from MT on a system that was built for playing DDO... back in 2006.

Maybe being in the middle of combat when it vanishes makes it worse?

I have no reason to believe that you or others are lying, but it makes me wonder what the heck is going on because I never see lag that bad what so ever. Granted my comparisons have been wizard based and not bard. Class difference? You'd think a wizard would be worse.

I have a High end system thats build for playing DDO today.... as do others... AMD Quad Core, ATI 4890, Velociraptor hard Drive, 6 Gigs of Ram......

I've never had a Wizard or sorc I've had to use it on at high levels. Dnt now if thats a difference maker or not.. But my bard.... no joke.. 5-8 Seconds of lag.. even after a Clean reboot....

Gunga
05-20-2010, 09:54 AM
Yep.

Master's Touch is useless.

SquelchHU
05-20-2010, 09:56 AM
It's obviously due to the way it's coded. Each proficiency is its own feat... so when it wears off that's actually several dozen buffs being removed all at once. You can see a lesser version of this with protection from elements.

Anyways, they'll probably add stuff that makes em more fighter or barb like, maybe some other new songs that are useful but minor and call it a day. Which means it will actually turn out alright. That's an improvement.

Valindria
05-20-2010, 10:01 AM
What if you gained martial weapon proficiency with the weapons you are focused in. WC I required WF. So if you are focused in Slashing you would gain great sword, great axe, etc but not maul, warhammer, etc.

WC II - Martial Prof
WC III - Full BAB based on bard levels for all weapons in weapon focus (like monk).

KillEveryone
05-20-2010, 10:21 AM
I have used masters touch and I like the spell and hate it at the same time. It really needs to be fixed. Having symbols such as curse or poison over your head when masters touch wears off but those symbols staying is really annoying, even when they wore off.

Since the capstone isn't really great for a Warchanter, I personally don't mind having two levels of fighter since you get a attack haste boost, two extra feats, a STR enhancement, and a toughness enhancement. Taking the fighter splash solves the need for having to use masters touch.

I don't see them adding martial proficiencies with the enhancement since the proficiencies are a feat even though they do have a way of adding the benefits of the martial weapons feat with a spell.

jkm
05-20-2010, 10:41 AM
because of the nature of the classes that have the spell, a simple tweak would be for the martial proficiencies to load when you learn the spell. this way they are handled on log in (or at a shrine in the purpose of wizards) and then casting the spell gives some minor benefit (+1 to hit). if you unload the spell, they are stripped.

WolfSpirit
05-23-2010, 07:25 AM
Blaming a player's system for something that should take a minuscule amount of processing power is fairly bad form.
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I was not blaming, its called troubleshooting. Its not Bad form to put ideas forth to help troubleshoot Lag issues. Many times, Perhaps more than 80% of the time, Player Systems are the cause of their own lag. So this inevitably leads to the first thing to try/check is player systems and their settings, more-so since I personally use that spell daily and barely see the lag. Was an idea put forth to look at for possible solutions.
Loosen up man!
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The Lag from MT gets progressively worse as you level. At level 20, its a solid 5-8 seconds.
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Thank you Impaqt, I did not know that as I've never used the spell on a high level Character.
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Failedlegend
05-23-2010, 10:00 AM
Since I highly doubt they'll make inspire better at Warchanter 2/3 they probably will add martial proficiencies to it to fit the theme instead. Of course it's a toss up as to whether this will happen before, or after 12/21/2012...

OMG!!!! They gave bards MARTIAL WEAPONS!!!!! WERE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!!! RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!

:p My only bard is a WF Bardbarian (who will probably be re-rolled as a Half-orc Barbarian) but I do play on rolling a warchanter soon (I wish the other PrEs were useful) but I have a wiz/rog that I love to switch to weapons sometimes (when soloing) but I can't use many weapons because of the limited prof and because masters touch is useless.

Rav'n
05-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Love this idea! Regardless if it's WC I, II or III (II makes the most sense.) I have a Capped WC using Masters Touch. He uses both a Min II Falcion and the Mad Lute.... Mad Lute seems to work better than the Min II w/ MT.

Memnir
05-23-2010, 12:26 PM
I wouldn't mind if, instead of granting all martial weapons with Warchanter, if you were able to select one from the list - ala Kensi and their weapon focus. Perhaps, if the Devs ever see fit to expand Bard PrEs, you could select additional martial weapon profs with WC II and III.

Because Master's Touch lag is a problem.

DoctorWhofan
05-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Or grant Martial Proficiency to Warchanters at tier I or II of the PrE.
Problem solved.

THis. It can be listed as a choice under the enhancements and lights up when you take the first tier. Each tier of Warchanter grants another proficiency. It wouldn't be game breaking and seriously, bards could use a bone.

Rav'n
05-23-2010, 02:30 PM
THis. It can be listed as a choice under the enhancements and lights up when you take the first tier. Each tier of Warchanter grants another proficiency. It wouldn't be game breaking and seriously, bards could use a bone.

That actually makes good sense.

WC I Choose a Weapon-Cost 1 AP
WC II Choose a 2nd Weapon-Cost 2 AP
WC III get a 3rd Weapon-Cost 3 AP

So to have 3 Martial Weapons not granted by your Race it would cost you 6 AP.

This gives the Bards a "bennie" without over powering it. It also makes them make a choice in Enhancements.