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Cyr
05-17-2010, 11:38 AM
First off let me say raid timers in general are not a bad idea to me. They serve one very important function in game, extending the life of top level content giving the developers time to put out the next raid.

My suggestion is to adjust raid timers in the following manner:

Raids 5 levels or lower then the level cap should have their raid timers removed. If the level cap ever changed again then raids which would fall under this new category should have their raid timers removed also.

Raids 4 levels lower then the level cap should have their timers cut to 24 hours. This would cover the shroud now, but if the cap was increased it should be applied to all appropriate raids.

Reasoning behind this suggestion:

A) Lower level raids should not, and for the most part, are not extending the life of DDO's end game. Their items are generally possessed by those at end game already and are of a lesser quality then those obtained from higher level content.

B) Top level raids do extend the end game by keeping the 'perfect' set of equipment somewhere around a 20th completion time. This means the developers have two months to get another raid out for the really hard core gamers.

C) Lower level raids tend to be run less because by the time your timer runs out you have out leveled the raid.

D) The xp/time ratio are good on raids.

E) Raids are the teaching ground for higher level content. They require some amount of team work and coordination. By making lower level raids more accessable new players would have more reasons to get into bigger groups and start learning how the game plays at higher levels. This has a HIGHLY desirable side effect of reducing the system shock that many new players experience upon first entering the shroud or other high level content that can prove a challenge to those with no preperation. By reducing this system shock you reduce the rage quitting that can result. The best games slowly ramp up the challenge so you are not suddenly hitting 'brick walls'.

F) Provides more opportunity for new players to aquire decent, but hardly top end, gear. This will make new players feel less insecurity when it comes to their gear versus that TR in their party. It also let's vets know the same thing about new players.

G) Provides less time for a new player to aquire very respectable gear, but still not top end gear. A min 2 could be aquired by a newer player in a few weeks without having to do the rather lame dd out before you hit the alter method. Right now new players do get a little bit of the shaft here. It takes a player with a single toon a month or two to put together his first good shroud weapon. By this time they are capped and when they try and run the other raids or even worse epics they just don't have the gear to compete. Being stuck in this inbetween area for a while is not desirable. Much more desirable is that some good gear is already in hand when level 20 is hit. Epics look a lot different when you have 45 more hit points on a rogue and a radiance rapier...

Phidius
05-17-2010, 11:45 AM
I presume that you'd leave the Epic timers in place, though? I don't object to removing raid timers for non-Epic dragon/queen/titan raids, but the ability to run the Reaver's Fate on elite every 15 minutes for +3 tomes seems like it'd be a tad unbalanced.

Not that I'd object, mind you.

Personally, I'd rather see the loot in the older raids upgraded. It's sad that so much of it get's vendored or left in the chest because it's weaksauce. Yes, Epic has done some of this, but if they want me to run a raid at level the loot should be useful for more than a day or two...

Belwaar
05-17-2010, 11:47 AM
I like the suggestions. I would give two things in addition:

1. Make this for VIP to give those in this path a little more bang for their buck. Lower it to every 2 days or 36 Hours; something along those lines

2. Scale the raid timer for the level of the raid.

Tempest Spine - No Timer
Vault of Night / Plane of Night - 12 Hours
Zawabi's Revenge - 24 Hours
The Twilight Forge/The Titan Awakes - 36 Hours
The Reaver's Fate - 48 Hours


Just based off the raids you mentioned. Doesn't have to necessarily go with these times, they're just an idea. I think you would increase the time these raids are run. Also would make EPIC Raids stay on current timer. You could also scale the raids to the level of the toon you take into it, although that would be a slightly more complicated equation. It would help prevent over-grinding/taking advantage of the system by higher levels for loot, i.e. Chattering etc.

Belwaar
05-17-2010, 11:49 AM
Personally, I'd rather see the loot in the older raids upgraded. It's sad that so much of it get's vendored or left in the chest because it's weaksauce. Yes, Epic has done some of this, but if they want me to run a raid at level the loot should be useful for more than a day or two...

I see nothing wrong with the loot, the way it is. I think a problem people have is that they just vendor it after they've surpassed the usefulness of it. But what if you TR? It'd be nice to have that stuff during the grind that is TRing. And, with the addition of EPIC, it makes that loot something to hold on to.

karnokvolrath
05-17-2010, 11:51 AM
I like the suggestions. I would give two things in addition:

1. Make this for VIP to give those in this path a little more bang for their buck. Lower it to every 2 days or 36 Hours; something along those lines

2. Scale the raid timer for the level of the raid.

Tempest Spine - No Timer
Vault of Night / Plane of Night - 12 Hours
Zawabi's Revenge - 24 Hours
The Twilight Forge/The Titan Awakes - 36 Hours
The Reaver's Fate - 48 Hours



I think Belwaar has a good layout here, I dont think timers sould be totally removed, but adjusted for sure.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 11:51 AM
I presume that you'd leave the Epic timers in place, though? I don't object to removing raid timers for non-Epic dragon/queen/titan raids, but the ability to run the Reaver's Fate on elite every 15 minutes for +3 tomes seems like it'd be a tad unbalanced.

Not that I'd object, mind you.

Personally, I'd rather see the loot in the older raids upgraded. It's sad that so much of it get's vendored or left in the chest because it's weaksauce. Yes, Epic has done some of this, but if they want me to run a raid at level the loot should be useful for more than a day or two...

Yup, epic timers stay in since they are at level cap. Also VoD, Hound, ToD, and Abbot would remain unchanged until the level cap got changed.

Personally I could care less if people could farm reaver for +3 tomes as they are not top end loot anymore. +4's are in ToD and epics.

A small note also, chest loot timers still exist also so there is a limit on how much farming you can accomplish still.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 11:58 AM
I like the suggestions. I would give two things in addition:

1. Make this for VIP to give those in this path a little more bang for their buck. Lower it to every 2 days or 36 Hours; something along those lines


2. Scale the raid timer for the level of the raid.

Tempest Spine - No Timer
Vault of Night / Plane of Night - 12 Hours
Zawabi's Revenge - 24 Hours
The Twilight Forge/The Titan Awakes - 36 Hours
The Reaver's Fate - 48 Hours

Just based off the raids you mentioned. Doesn't have to necessarily go with these times, they're just an idea. I think you would increase the time these raids are run. Also would make EPIC Raids stay on current timer. You could also scale the raids to the level of the toon you take into it, although that would be a slightly more complicated equation. It would help prevent over-grinding/taking advantage of the system by higher levels for loot, i.e. Chattering etc.

I thought about something like this myself, but it fails to really accomplish a major goals of making mediocre lower level raid loot more accessable to new players and allowing new players to truly run the lower level raids before out leveling them.

Von for example. I could certainly see players out leveling von ina day or two. Getting an extra run or two in is not accomplishing the goal here. Also, fo rthe higher level ones like reavers it would be mostly pointless for new players.

Your suggestion does allow for easier farming by higher level toons for the 1/2 items on the loot list which benefit them however.

Your first point I see as really silly though. Reducing timers on lower level raids would help increase the sales of these adventure packs. The suggestion would be counterproductive to Turbine's business interests.

Visty
05-17-2010, 12:00 PM
removing timer will destroy the game, so /not signed

Cyr
05-17-2010, 12:05 PM
removing timer will destroy the game, so /not signed

Could you explain your reasoning? Remember that my suggestion only removes timers from low level raids (not epics, shroud (although I cut this one), Tod, vod, hound, or abbot).

Visty
05-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Could you explain your reasoning? Remember that my suggestion only removes timers from low level raids (not epics, shroud (although I cut this one), Tod, vod, hound, or abbot).

von, titan, dq, reaver would all be without a timer

even though they are low level they still hold some of the most powerful raidloot of this game:
marilith chain, torc, chattering ring, titan belt (forgot name), madstone boots, kundarak boots, SoS, etc

removing the timers would basicly give all those items to everyone as the chests can be farmed like hell

and that isnt good for game balance

LunaCee
05-17-2010, 12:10 PM
Erm... I'd have to say timer reduction at the very least would be VERY nice for some of the lower level raids.

Some of the loot simply all that it used to be, and frankly to a certain extend endgame content is balanced around players having certain pieces of loot. Amrath and Epic's are balanced around Greensteel. Casters in end game are expected to have Torc, Bauble, and possibly even an Epic Spell Storing Ring.

Reducing the time it takes to get critical gear pieces for endgame so that a character isn't stuck farming say DQ for 4-5 months straight trying to get that blasted Torc doesn't happen. Content that is no longer endgame should NOT be a big hang up for pieces of gear that cannot be gotten anywhere else. Feel free to keep some form of timer keeping things in check... but it would be nice if you could reduce the grind time for the mid level stuff substantially.

Visty
05-17-2010, 12:19 PM
Casters in end game are expected to have Torc, Bauble, and possibly even an Epic Spell Storing Ring.

my cleric has neither the bouble, epic spellstoring ring or the torc (well, i have it but dont use it) and just does fine

how was that about beeing expected to have them?

endgame is totally fine without them, you just have to adjust your playstyle to not waste sp

Cyr
05-17-2010, 12:30 PM
von, titan, dq, reaver would all be without a timer

even though they are low level they still hold some of the most powerful raidloot of this game:
marilith chain, torc, chattering ring, titan belt (forgot name), madstone boots, kundarak boots, SoS, etc

removing the timers would basicly give all those items to everyone as the chests can be farmed like hell

and that isnt good for game balance

The real key here is what exactly is broken in game balance here?

If it's high level play you have no case as it is designed with loot in mind. There is no serious argument that assumes that epics are made for those without GS and such.

If it is for lower level content I would say you have already lost that battle with the introduction of TR's. Trust me plenty of new players will still have NO raid items when they hit cap...just like plenty despite numerous ways to farm it have no heavy fort item when they go into the shroud.

I remember this same hysteria over vorpals/banishers/smiters/paralyzers with the loot weekends. That all of a sudden the masses would have these items and the game would be broken. It was not. Fun content was still produced. Trick is that here we already have that higher level content developed.

Old players have these items already. New players do not. The game is not any more balanced at any level range because some players have way better gear then others. In fact, that makes future design harder for the developers as they have incentives to try cater to both sides of the spectrum instead of working off a lowest easily aquired denominator.

Visty
05-17-2010, 12:32 PM
I remember this same hysteria over vorpals/banishers/smiters/paralyzers with the loot weekends. That all of a sudden the masses would have these items and the game would be broken. It was not. Fun content was still produced. Trick is that here we already have that higher level content developed.

and why did nothing change?
blanket immunities and massive saves

theres nothing you can do about everyone haveing a torc

Zenako
05-17-2010, 12:34 PM
I see the problem out quickly outleveling those quests to really only apply to a small subset of the player base. Most players I know would be level appropriate for many of those quests for weeks or even months. Most of them are playing a handful of different characters as well.

Reduction of raid timers would be a serious paradigm shift in the balance of the game. It would seriously tilt the tables even more to the power gamers, who would then have little to no impediment to optimal outfitting. The "haves" would have even more, while the "have-nots" will have perhaps a bit more, if they even regrind those raids.

Right now some with a single toon COULD run 10 completion Shrouds a month. Most players might only get a handful. Their is little indication that lots of people are timer bound. The power gamer could then run litterally hundreds of Shrouds a month and quickly craft everything they could ever want. Instead of extending the life of raids, it would quickly exhaust them.

I would agree however that a quest like Tempest Spine should actually fall into the normal quest timers. It has some named loot, but not what I would call Raid Loot or a Raid Chest.

Phidius
05-17-2010, 12:36 PM
I see nothing wrong with the loot, the way it is. I think a problem people have is that they just vendor it after they've surpassed the usefulness of it. But what if you TR? It'd be nice to have that stuff during the grind that is TRing. And, with the addition of EPIC, it makes that loot something to hold on to.

Speaking just for myself, the storage space most of the raid loot takes up is more valuable than the raid loot itself.

Yes, Epic makes some of them more interesting, but don't forget that upgrading to epic is a grind all by itself... it's not like you're going to pull an Epic Hammer of Life at level 10.

If making them Epic is the only way to get a use out of them, I'll just wait until I'm level 20 to grind it out. I can get XP much faster than waiting around an hour for a raid group to fill and fail.

Failedlegend
05-17-2010, 12:38 PM
I like the suggestions. I would give two things in addition:

1. Make this for VIP to give those in this path a little more bang for their buck. Lower it to every 2 days or 36 Hours; something along those lines

2. Scale the raid timer for the level of the raid.

Tempest Spine - No Timer
Vault of Night / Plane of Night - 12 Hours
Zawabi's Revenge - 24 Hours
The Twilight Forge/The Titan Awakes - 36 Hours
The Reaver's Fate - 48 Hours


Just based off the raids you mentioned. Doesn't have to necessarily go with these times, they're just an idea. I think you would increase the time these raids are run. Also would make EPIC Raids stay on current timer. You could also scale the raids to the level of the toon you take into it, although that would be a slightly more complicated equation. It would help prevent over-grinding/taking advantage of the system by higher levels for loot, i.e. Chattering etc.

It should be VIP & Premium (just another reason for a F2P to spend money) and I'd say anything below The Shroud should just be a zero timer.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 12:41 PM
and why did nothing change?
blanket immunities and massive saves

theres nothing you can do about everyone haveing a torc

Everyone does have a torc already. It's called the DDO store mana pots.

Oh and those blanket immunities. They actually came in much later. Orchard and shroud was pretty friendly to vorpals and such.

LunaCee
05-17-2010, 12:45 PM
They already DID do something about assuming every caster would have a frigging Torc. Insane saves & spell resistance, elemental resistances if not outright immunity or healing, blanket immunity against some spell types. Insane saves & SR = flubbed casts = more SP required. High levels of elemental resistances = more nuking required to take target down = more SP required. Blanket Immunity = alternate strategy required, might take something not quite as efficient as your usual standby = more SP required. Epic mob HP being in the THOUSANDS for each and every trash mob? More SP to burn them down! Especially since instant kills don't work, charms break super fast, saves are outright sky high...

Oh and lets not forget the Dream Renders with a SP drain attack! Can't forget that!

Do I REALLY need to go on here? They already assumptions in play the presume that higher level player casters have some of the previous raid toys.

Krag
05-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Everyone does have a torc already. It's called the DDO store mana pots.

Oh and those blanket saves. They actually came in much later. Orchard and shroud was pretty friendly to vorpals and such.

There is a potential for everyone to buy mana pots. Just like everyone has a potential to pull the Shard of Spellstoring Ring.

DANTEIL
05-17-2010, 12:47 PM
For what it's worth, speaking as a newer player, I like some version of this idea, but it seems to me that an issue here is not just the timers, but also the flagging requirements. I am not a powerleveler by any means -- it took me close to 6 months to get my primary character to 20 -- but along the way even without meaning to I found myself blowing right by most of the raids before leveling too high: Of the quests I ran *at-or-near-level,* I ran TS maybe twice, Reaver's once or twice, VON once, DQ never and Titan never. Since the flagging quests for these raids also give good XP, by the time I collected all 20x3 relics for Gianthold Tor, or finished all 4 VON prequests or all of the Desert quests (plus doing other things at the same time, like slayers and Orchard), I had pretty much leveled past the actual raid.

So now I am at level 20 and don't have a lot of the gear that a 20 wizard is expected to have like Napkin, Torc etc., and this isn't even end-game gear! So yes, not having as long of a timer would help acquiring for those kinds of items, but I'm not sure it's the only issue.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 12:51 PM
There is a potential for everyone to buy mana pots. Just like everyone has a potential to pull the Shard of Spellstoring Ring.

Fail analogy.

There is an in game limit on pulling the shard called raid timers (one which my suggestion would not touch btw). There is no in game limit on how many mana pots you buy from the ddo store.

Remind me again which is more likely the guy buying mana pots or him having pulled a shard for the spell storing ring :)

Bogenbroom
05-17-2010, 12:54 PM
Its not a bad thought, but I'd be inclined to have the removed/reduced timers only in play for raids for which you do not get 50% + XP hit on.

I think Cyr is right that making raids easier to access while in level is a good thing and would help players coming up, but Visty has a point about continued farming by higher levels saturating raid loot into the game.

Visty
05-17-2010, 12:55 PM
Everyone does have a torc already. It's called the DDO store mana pots.
unless your manapots are for free, then no, its not the same
the torc sp is for free, manapots cost money


Oh and those blanket immunities. They actually came in much later.
strange that i cant vorpal the giants in tor then....thought they were befor the orchard...might be mistaken here

Ethiel
05-17-2010, 01:06 PM
The giants in Tor have Deathblock/ward. That is far from a blanket immunity.

They can still be stoned/firewalled to death. And if your caster can neg level them they can be paralyzed as well.

Blanket immunities imply that they are immune to every effect, not just death effects....and why shouldn't they be? I can get death block items at level 10 and have death ward cast on me around the same time.

I know DDO isn't PNP D&D but the principal is the same, if it is available to the player it is available to the mob.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 01:08 PM
strange that i cant vorpal the giants in tor then....thought they were befor the orchard...might be mistaken here

No you are right about that dungeon. I completely forgot about that single dungeon. If you remember nothing else was granted there immunities though in GH besides standard red/purple named immunities. Heck, even the elementals in Reaver could be easily banished for a long time.

Torc SP is free monetarily, but not free in all manners.

A) Time spent regaining mana
B) Hit Points lost/sp to heal or in game consumables
C) Body Slot used up. This one you yourself pointed out as signifigant when commenting that you do have a torc, but do not use it.

Garth_of_Sarlona
05-17-2010, 02:07 PM
raids are still something special and still give the best loot in the game

I don't think timers should be removed.

If they were, I would just farm reaver and dq over and over (both of which are easily soloable) for all the raid items I wanted.

Garth

Cyr
05-17-2010, 02:26 PM
If they were, I would just farm reaver and dq over and over (both of which are easily soloable) for all the raid items I wanted.


It should be fairly apparent to vets that EPIC is the wave of the future.

You can farm your dq items if you really really want that one item NOW. Or you can just run your 3 day epic timers and get it anyways and upgrade it into something that is actually end game worthy. Same thing I am sure will be true of the GH loot and titan loot.

Raids are not special when you could have easily soloed them. At least this way there would be more play of them when they really are special for new players, at the appropriate level range.

moops
05-17-2010, 02:30 PM
raids are still something special and still give the best loot in the game

I don't think timers should be removed.

If they were, I would just farm reaver and dq over and over (both of which are easily soloable) for all the raid items I wanted.

Garth


I concur. And I'd go back to shortmanning VON 5/6 just to get the loot b4 getting the Epic pieces.

Also shroud is Level 17, if something like removing raid timers were to go into place, I don't think that should count as a raid that would have it's timers removed.

moops
05-17-2010, 02:32 PM
It should be fairly apparent to vets that EPIC is the wave of the future.

You can farm your dq items if you really really want that one item NOW. Or you can just run your 3 day epic timers and get it anyways and upgrade it into something that is actually end game worthy. Same thing I am sure will be true of the GH loot and titan loot.

Raids are not special when you could have easily soloed them. At least this way there would be more play of them when they really are special for new players, at the appropriate level range.


But with your suggestion I could do a DQ every 10 mins non stop or a Reaver every 15 mins non stop--an insane advantage over the newer players, as well as casual players IMHO.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 02:36 PM
Its not a bad thought, but I'd be inclined to have the removed/reduced timers only in play for raids for which you do not get 50% + XP hit on.


This could be a logical approach. Have a no timer rule on lower level raids until you hit X number of runs on it. That would give new players plenty of time to run it at level getting lots of shots at the loot and the nice xp along with the experience that is gained from running those lower level raids at level.

I would think X=10 should be more then sufficent to meet the goals here.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 02:48 PM
But with your suggestion I could do a DQ every 10 mins non stop or a Reaver every 15 mins non stop--an insane advantage over the newer players, as well as casual players IMHO.

Really Hex what gain are you getting here that is an insane advantage?

Are you really going to try and convince anyone here that you could run a dq so much faster then any other new player just at 20? Or try and convince us that you don't have most of this loot that you want already so that same new player would not have more to gain out of this?

This would be an advantage that casual players would get less benefit from though. Then again many casual players have no issues with any timers because they play so little it is irrelevant.

Bogenbroom
05-17-2010, 04:00 PM
This could be a logical approach. Have a no timer rule on lower level raids until you hit X number of runs on it. That would give new players plenty of time to run it at level getting lots of shots at the loot and the nice xp along with the experience that is gained from running those lower level raids at level.

I would think X=10 should be more then sufficent to meet the goals here.

Oh, I meant 50% XP less from level difference, not re-running. But either would approach could serve.

Cyr
05-17-2010, 04:14 PM
Oh, I meant 50% XP less from level difference, not re-running. But either would approach could serve.

Ah, what is that like 4 levels higher then the quest? That would be fairly ideal once all these quests have their epic alternatives in game. It would both prevent the concerns of over saturation (which I still find preposterous that people are so worried about items that have been in game for years and are well below the cap would be too common and that would hurt the game somehow) and address the primary goals of making these raids run more at levels for a variety of reasons.

ColsonJade
05-17-2010, 04:23 PM
But with your suggestion I could do a DQ every 10 mins non stop or a Reaver every 15 mins non stop--an insane advantage over the newer players, as well as casual players IMHO.

But you would run into ransack very quickly and then you would still have to wait a week to get the gear.

moops
05-17-2010, 04:28 PM
Really Hex what gain are you getting here that is an insane advantage?

Are you really going to try and convince anyone here that you could run a dq so much faster then any other new player just at 20? Or try and convince us that you don't have most of this loot that you want already so that same new player would not have more to gain out of this?

This would be an advantage that casual players would get less benefit from though. Then again many casual players have no issues with any timers because they play so little it is irrelevant.

Actually, since I rerolled ALts b4 the invention of TR, there are still many DQ items, and a few Reaver items I need, not to mention +3 Tomes from Reaver. Sure its an advantage over newer players, I have more gear from all the higher level stuff, than most new players, as well as the knowledge and experience of having done the raids too many times to count. Without timers, I wouldn't bother to put a group together if I am farming, just like I solo Sins & Bastion when Farming. (Id add Invasion but artifacts are worthless now.) So the potential is there that LFMs would not be put up as much for Raids, new people would not get to learn from older players as much, let alone walk in and solo the raid.

Now as to whether I can do it faster, who knows? I do know that I see ungeared new level 16 -20 players fail DQ with a group on Elite somehow. I've also been the last one standing on my Fighter in a Reaver recently b4 the orbs were even all lit. . .Many newer players simply would not be able to farm these quests for gear repeatedly if they were soloing. To a certain extent to be able to solo raids people would have to grind gear somewhere to solo them, and that would have to be done with groups, maybe shortmanned raids, but still more than soloing. And lets face it, some builds just aren't solo builds.

TheJusticar
05-17-2010, 04:42 PM
von, titan, dq, reaver would all be without a timer

even though they are low level they still hold some of the most powerful raidloot of this game:
marilith chain, torc, chattering ring, titan belt (forgot name), madstone boots, kundarak boots, SoS, etc

removing the timers would basicly give all those items to everyone as the chests can be farmed like hell

and that isnt good for game balance

I normally don't agree with Visty, but this time I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion. +1.

Failedlegend
05-17-2010, 06:12 PM
This could be a logical approach. Have a no timer rule on lower level raids until you hit X number of runs on it. That would give new players plenty of time to run it at level getting lots of shots at the loot and the nice xp along with the experience that is gained from running those lower level raids at level.

I would think X=10 should be more then sufficent to meet the goals here.

Can't argue with that but maybe X could equal 20 so they can get the awesome loot list once (what is it like 50% named items or something) before timers come into effect

Pyromaniac
05-18-2010, 05:37 AM
/for the VIPs only to get lower raid timers is not signed. Want to lose a big chunk of the player base - do that suggestion.

The problem with lowering raid timers is that it will make people lose interest in the game if they're too short. But it is really nice to log in each night and do the same raid with the same character. I'd say 18 hours across the board would be perfect. You can make the titan raid timer 3 weeks long to compensate, as its hardly ever run.

Cyr
05-18-2010, 02:12 PM
But you would run into ransack very quickly and then you would still have to wait a week to get the gear.

I would also note that it would be logical for the developers to cap the number of completions in a week to the chest ransack number. IE, you could keep on running it and hope someone else gives you the item but your raid counter would not advance nor would you be pulling anything from the chest of worth until the chest becomes unransacked for you. Presumably, the /quest command would be altered to show how long until the 'quest becomes unransacked' for you for quests with no timers.

Dragonhyde
05-18-2010, 02:55 PM
If a "raid " can be ransacked in a week then why would there still be 20th completion bonus items? It would seem that by making it just another quest then the downgraded 12 man quest should not have the perk that a timed raid would get.

Cyr
05-18-2010, 03:23 PM
If a "raid " can be ransacked in a week then why would there still be 20th completion bonus items? It would seem that by making it just another quest then the downgraded 12 man quest should not have the perk that a timed raid would get.

For the simple reason that the ability to build towards your goal is more rewarding then just pure dumb luck. See shroud vs. DT. Heck, I would be fine with 20th end rewards on all quests with named loot including a system for scrolls, shards, and seals in epics.

Oh and what makes it different? All the loot binds in raids. IDK about you, but I ran hundreds of runs for icy rainments when it was in ghosts and dozens more when it got moved to the sub. I never hated the game more then while doing this. It was not fun at all after the 40+ time running the same quest. You might note that the other rare quests that have bind to character loot are also known as boring grinds...such as weapon shipment.

Another critical reason is to maintain the same benefit for casual players. Otherwise, this would be serious nerf for them when they really only had time to run the quest a few times a week before anyways. A similar concern comes up with new players where if the timer was removed, but the 20th completions went away it is highly likely that they would take JUST AS LONG AS OLDER PLAYERS DID TO GET THE ONE PIECE OF GEAR THEY WANT FROM A RAID except they have to run it way more times. That basically means it would be a big shaft to new players as well.

Bobthesponge
05-18-2010, 05:34 PM
/not signed

this is another Easy Button. dismissing lower level raid loot as worthless at end game blinds you to the fact that when these raids were designed, they WERE end game content and the raid loot was coveted. as the level cap moved and more powerful items became available much of this lost value, although not all. i still am farming Titan with my 19rgr/1rge for a chattering ring.

the whole point of raid loot is that it is special and rare - it should be a treat to get it. the whole point of raid timers is to prevent people from endlessly farming until they get this special, rare loot. it is a matter of game balance, both then and now.

and for those who don't think removing or reducing the timers will tilt the game more to the power gamers then you need to sit back and think. the power gamers would almost immediately have access to ALL of the special loot from lower level raids, such as the chattering ring and the SOS. the newbs and casuals would get more, yes, but not nearly enough to make up for the power gamer loot.

and finally, if you remove or reduce raid timers then raids will be done more often. if raids are done more often people will get bored with them sooner. if people get bored with raids then they leave the game. this is a strategy to drive people from the game.