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Gunga
05-11-2010, 02:44 PM
I'd like to make a suggestion regarding loot drop rates.

Please initiate a stop loss for those poor saps who have slowly, raid after raid after raid, slid into the cesspool of hopeless misfortune (Divs).

Perhaps, upon completing a raid 50 times, and every 50th thereafter, your end reward list is populated with EVERYTHING AVAILABLE from that raid. Tomes can remain randomly generated.

Even though an additional raid counter would have to be implemented by the fine young programming minds at Turbine, in this case, I feel that the time invested would be much appreciated by a proponderance of gaming mammals.

And might even stop Divs, who is on his 65th abbot without a litany, from tracking down and killing Dirdee when Dirdee logs on for his monthly appearance and pulls his 3rd Litany in 3 months.

Dirdee's family thanks you.

cm2_supernova
05-11-2010, 06:22 PM
I'd like to make a suggestion regarding loot drop rates.

Please initiate a stop loss for those poor saps who have slowly, raid after raid after raid, slid into the cesspool of hopeless misfortune (Divs).

Perhaps, upon completing a raid 50 times, and every 50th thereafter, your end reward list is populated with EVERYTHING AVAILABLE from that raid. Tomes can remain randomly generated.

Even though an additional raid counter would have to be implemented by the fine young programming minds at Turbine, in this case, I feel that the time invested would be much appreciated by a proponderance of gaming mammals.

And might even stop Divs, who is on his 65th abbot without a litany, from tracking down and killing Dirdee when Dirdee logs on for his monthly appearance and pulls his 3rd Litany in 3 months.

Dirdee's family thanks you.

qft

or at least bump the 20th end reward list from 50% to the 66-75% range.

Wait, isnt DDO supposed to be the grindless MMO?? Maybe Div has pulled his littany several times but lies for pity

Jendrak
05-11-2010, 06:25 PM
Not so sure about changeing the way the 20th run end rewards work (or adding the 50th like the OP said) but they could definatly bump the drop rates on certain items (i.e. several titan loots as well as litany for example) to be equal to the others. Some would say they are but we all know thats bs.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-11-2010, 06:26 PM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

Jendrak
05-11-2010, 06:32 PM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

this idea is a little bit too much of an easy button if ya ask me. While the new/casual guys are behind the power curve for gear thats kinda what happens when you are new or havent put in the same hours of work on something, you gotta play catch up.

While something should be done to fix the 80+ runs and still no <insert raid loot here> this just goes a little too far IMO.

cm2_supernova
05-11-2010, 06:46 PM
this idea is a little bit too much of an easy button if ya ask me. While the new/casual guys are behind the power curve for gear thats kinda what happens when you are new or havent put in the same hours of work on something, you gotta play catch up.

While something should be done to fix the 80+ runs and still no <insert raid loot here> this just goes a little too far IMO.


Not so sure about changeing the way the 20th run end rewards work (or adding the 50th like the OP said) but they could definatly bump the drop rates on certain items (i.e. several titan loots as well as litany for example) to be equal to the others. Some would say they are but we all know thats bs.

20 completions on a raid is going to take at least 60 days if you hit it up as soon as you are off timer every time...in reality you are looking at about 3 months per 20 completions...even with Lorien's idea I dont think its too much...just enough to get ya hooked.

How is that an easy button?

Lorien_the_First_One
05-11-2010, 06:49 PM
Not so sure about changeing the way the 20th run end rewards work (or adding the 50th like the OP said) but they could definatly bump the drop rates on certain items (i.e. several titan loots as well as litany for example) to be equal to the others. Some would say they are but we all know thats bs.

While I don't think you should get everything 'for free', its funny how many players think grinding is fun. I don't see it being an easy button to give you one piece of raid loot as a reward for finishing a raid for the first time.

Aurora1979
05-11-2010, 06:54 PM
While I don't think you should get everything 'for free', its funny how many players think grinding is fun. I don't see it being an easy button to give you one piece of raid loot as a reward for finishing a raid for the first time.

I think this is a good idea. Ive been playing for bout 18 months, 3 servers over a dozen of so chars. Ive had maybe 6-7 chars running raids and the ONLY named item i have pulled was a reavers napkin on my cleric. Ive had no decent items from raids barring ings etc.

Im not whinging, im not overly bothered but i do play alot of hours and i have put in the runs. Would just be nice to get some of the items i read about :)

cpito
05-11-2010, 07:00 PM
Even though an additional raid counter would have to be implemented by the fine young programming minds at Turbine, in this case, I feel that the time invested would be much appreciated by a proponderance of gaming mammals.


This is one of the best sentences I've read in a while :D

Hi Gunga

The idea is a good one. I also know a few people who would be saved from certain death at the hands of frustrated guildies if this were to be implemented.

Gunga
05-11-2010, 07:03 PM
This is one of the best sentences I've read in a while :D

Hi Gunga

The idea is a good one. I also know a few people who would be saved from certain death at the hands of frustrated guildies if this were to be implemented.

You just like it when I call you mammal.

Gunga
05-11-2010, 07:09 PM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

I hear ya, Lorien.

I think that the game will be better for everyone if we did something like this after a good attempt is made at getting your loot. It makes for a better raiding environment.

It's called stop loss to round up the average terrible luck of the ultimate losers. The opportunity still exists for the dumb luck first raiders (Dirdee) that can pull their loot on their first run. We just shouldn't make that the norm.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-11-2010, 07:30 PM
I hear ya, Lorien.

I think that the game will be better for everyone if we did something like this after a good attempt is made at getting your loot. It makes for a better raiding environment.

It's called stop loss to round up the average terrible luck of the ultimate losers. The opportunity still exists for the dumb luck first raiders (Dirdee) that can pull their loot on their first run. We just shouldn't make that the norm.

The reality for casual gamers is that 50 will never happen and 20 is a LONG way off and will probably never happen. I think a win on the first run would really help casual gamers, and make sure that even the power gamers get that one item they most want in each raid. Not that it will stop them from continuing to raid, after all, what power gamer would be happy with 1 set of madstone boots, they need several, and they need to go tome hunting. There aren't that many raids (ToD being a notable exception, and shroud where this really doesn't apply the same way) where there is only 1 raid item that people might want.

But if you think 1 is too nice, make it 5, or 10. Either way it deals with both the casual gamer problem and the problem you raise.

Jendrak
05-11-2010, 10:21 PM
20 completions on a raid is going to take at least 60 days if you hit it up as soon as you are off timer every time...in reality you are looking at about 3 months per 20 completions...even with Lorien's idea I dont think its too much...just enough to get ya hooked.

How is that an easy button?

Well what lorien suggested is a "full" list after the first run. Not after the first 20 but the very first run. The reason it's an easy button is because that means all you wound need to do is complete a raid one time to get any piece of raid gear.

Raids and their loot are supposed to be saught after, hard to obtain peices of equipment, thats the hook.

karnokvolrath
05-11-2010, 10:37 PM
While im probably not to qualified for this post, i feel the OPs idea is a good one and in no way an easy button. Some Raids people are after more then one item for there builds. Also with raid timers a 50th, 100th completion would take quite some time. While i dont think you sould just get what you want when you want it, i dont see the reason for people to endlessly grind a quest that they dont like for one item that they -may- never get.

Delacroix21
05-11-2010, 10:38 PM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

Id like to see this as well.


DDO has become more and more of a grind with each Update, as every new character you roll now requires more runs from more raids to gear. Free to Play MMOs are the LAST mmos that should have a grind.

eunucorn
05-11-2010, 11:34 PM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

If this were to be implemented you'd see people raiding once and then TRing to get that loot list again. I like the OPs suggestion a lot better though I doubt turbine sees 50 raid completions as an undue burden. Maybe if it was 100 ...

Noctus
05-12-2010, 08:46 AM
All i have to say:


1st run on a raid = full raidloot list to choose from:

http://kickasslifestyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/easy-button-300x300.jpg

Cyr
05-12-2010, 09:13 AM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

This idea ignores the raid loot lists of most raids.

Most raids have one highly desirable item for a particular toon. Let's not kid ourselves about this, it is true. More then a few players would get the best item for their toon and be done. I can not tell you the number of times I have heard (and it's been followed through with) statements like "The moment I pull SoS I'm done with this raid forever".

Some examples of these items that people would be likely to pull first time and then never run again...

Titan: AC build = chattering ring
Dragon: Dps = SoS
DQ: Caster = Torc
VoD: Tharne's for almost any melee

There are two major issues with this idea.

A) It's a new player trap. New players are the LEAST likely to know exactly what the best item is for their characters. Giving them their best loot pull first time out is asking for them to have buyers remorse over bad choices.

B) Front loading loot like this would provide immense incentives for players to not actually run the raids and instead hit them up all once get their desired item and then if they wanted another item from each raid TR and hit them once again. It would therefore shorten the lifespan of the raids drastically and likewise reduce their effectiveness as a time sink.

Spartus
05-12-2010, 09:20 AM
I like the OP's idea, but I'd like to throw out a variation to it for consideration. Upon a character's 20th raid completion, their end reward list is populated with 50% of the raid items from that raid (no change there). 40th raid completion, the percentage is upped to 75% of the raid items. 60th, 80th, 100th, etc. completions, and the percentage is upped to 100% of the raid items. This way, no new raid counter is necessary, just a modification of the existing raid counter.

Swedishchef
05-12-2010, 09:24 AM
Full raidloot list at the 20th run /signed

Full raidloot list after run nr 1 /fail

Dirac
05-12-2010, 09:36 AM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

This was my suggestion back when they were changing the raid loot system. After all threads were combined into Luthen's Massive Raid Loot Thread, there was an enormous amount of interesting and constructive discussion - and it received not one comment by anyone in development nor were any ideas implemented. For what it is worth, I still think it is a good idea. There are reasonable objections, as Cyr mentions, but I disagree.

The hook for the new/casual player is real. Getting a taste of real loot will increase their desire to play the game. Getting nothing, and then listening to horror stories from vets about 100 runs without ever getting the drop, new/casuals may very well just give up trying.

I doubt it will decrease the amount of vet raiding. It may decrease the number of level 20 groups grinding a particular low-level raid, but that does not seem to be a big disadvantage. Besides, most raids have more than one very good item. Again, any decrease will be outweighed by the eliminating the extreme frustration of not getting that one piece of loot someone needs.

I like the idea of increasing the drop rate for larger numbers: everything on the 50th or increasing the percentages and multiples of 20 accumulate, but these only help the hard-core. The first raid completion for a new player is a very memorable experience. Do not underestimate the enormous difference between getting **** and seeing that incredible list of awesome loot (for them), and the effect it will have on their enthusiasm for the game.

DragonMageT
05-12-2010, 09:37 AM
Maybe an easier change for Turbine to make would be all raid loot BTA instead of most being BTC.

Yes, the grind is still there but it gives everyone more tries at pulling DPS item x on their caster to be passed to their toon later or even rolling on item x.

Diarden
05-12-2010, 09:49 AM
What is this Litany you speak of? Is it like the mythical Torc or Red Dragonscale Helm?

Gol
05-12-2010, 09:59 AM
B) Front loading loot like this would provide immense incentives for players to not actually run the raids and instead hit them up all once get their desired item and then if they wanted another item from each raid TR and hit them once again. It would therefore shorten the lifespan of the raids drastically and likewise reduce their effectiveness as a time sink.
Quoted for Emphasis.

underpants
05-12-2010, 10:00 AM
Everyone wants the biggest stick and the coolest items there is no way it should be automatic at all ever no matter how many times you ran a raid. A random raid drop is just that random. If you have the luck of roadkill you can not blame the game for that, if the item comes up for roll and you roll under 10 20 times in a row well perhaps you should set up a raid loot shrine next to your computer (you will be surprised by the effectiveness) or go to a Hindu temple and let Vishnu purge you of your awful raid loot luck. No Automatic anything ever

Quit trying to make the game easier this is how we got casual mode which pretty much is the worst idea ever.

How about thinking of ways to make this game more challenging there is already enough easy

Lleren
05-12-2010, 10:00 AM
I certainly would not object to getting the full list of raid loot every 20 completions.

Xeraphim
05-12-2010, 10:28 AM
I'd rather see a full list for the first run. It would be a big bonus for new & casual players and since most vets & addicted players want more than one item from a raid, it wouldn't stop them from continuing to grind.

Actually, this mechanic would GREATLY improve my experience of DDO, and probably the experience of many new players as well.

Completion 1: ENTIRE list of Non-Tome Raid Items from said raid, no item excluded for any reason.

Every 20th thereafter: Chance of a nice Tome or another piece of Raid Loot for those of us who consistently roll below 11 on a d100.

Xeraphim
05-12-2010, 10:29 AM
I certainly would not object to getting the full list of raid loot every 20 completions.

This was actually the precise intent of my original proposition that resulted in the 20th completions.

The developers wanted to keep the Chance mechanic in the works, however.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 11:21 AM
I think that a full list on your first run, or even your 20th, is way too early and game breaking.

There is a reason why I called it Stop Loss....to stop the bleeding.

There was a poor guy on the forums a few years ago who didn't get his damn titan belt after 80 runs. That's ridiculous.

I'm looking to put an end to the extreme losing edge of the looting system, which would offset the extreme good luck of the newb that walks in and grabs great loot on his first run.

I'm not trying to change the game in any way...I think that the system in place works just fine for your first 49 runs.

Emili
05-12-2010, 11:50 AM
Hmmm, I wish to see only two pieces of raid loot pop in the warded chest - no other loot at all - Oh and the raid leader decide who shall get it via passin two runes... :rolleyes: Ummm, wait.

Belwaar
05-12-2010, 12:03 PM
Hmmm, I wish to see only two pieces of raid loot pop in the warded chest - no other loot at all - Oh and the raid leader decide who shall get it via passin two runes... :rolleyes: Ummm, wait.



:eek::p:eek:

Gunga
05-12-2010, 12:11 PM
Hmmm, I wish to see only two pieces of raid loot pop in the warded chest - no other loot at all - Oh and the raid leader decide who shall get it via passin two runes... :rolleyes: Ummm, wait.



If we went back to that way, there would be 100 of us on each server with 2 of every peice of loot on all toons and the rest of the server crying.

I'm really ok with how things are now, just give us what we're farming for AT SOME POINT.

Show us the light.

Gol
05-12-2010, 12:37 PM
There was a poor guy on the forums a few years ago who didn't get his damn titan belt after 80 runs. That's ridiculous.Took me 100 Reavers, 40 VoDs, 20 Hounds, and it wasn't until my 120th Shroud that my Ranger got a +3 Strength tome.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 12:49 PM
Took me 100 Reavers, 40 VoDs, 20 Hounds, and it wasn't until my 120th Shroud that my Ranger got a +3 Strength tome.

Cool story, bro.

I feel your pain, but I'm not looking to remove all randomness from the game.

Only farming for items. I'd go so far as to ask that a stop loss device be enacted for the DT armor. Say 50 runes buys your rune of choice? 100 runes?

Show me the light.

If you think that tomes should also be on the gimme list, what would you suggest as the right time for a gimme?

biggin
05-12-2010, 12:50 PM
Took me 100 Reavers, 40 VoDs, 20 Hounds, and it wasn't until my 120th Shroud that my Ranger got a +3 Strength tome.

Yep, over 4 years, countless +3 tomes in the bank, no WIS. And can you tell who I run as mains?

/signed and maybe an upward percentage mobility for tomes.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Yep, over 4 years, countless +3 tomes in the bank, no WIS. And can you tell who I run as mains?

/signed and maybe an upward percentage mobility for tomes.

On my 20th ToD I pulled a +4 Wis on my Barb.

And I ate it. :D

Gol
05-12-2010, 01:31 PM
Only farming for items. I'd go so far as to ask that a stop loss device be enacted for the DT armor. Say 50 runes buys your rune of choice? 100 runes?

Show me the light.

If you think that tomes should also be on the gimme list, what would you suggest as the right time for a gimme?
Agreed on DT. I'd be a fan of 20 completions buys a choice of upgrade, just to be consistent if nothing else.

As for tomes... I dunno. Multiple raids drop them, so I see your point in a way. I'd be a fan of putting all <appropriate level> tomes on your "full" list, though. I think 60 would be fair, to get back to your original point. It'd force you to choose, at least. Tome or loot. Seems fair to me.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Well what lorien suggested is a "full" list after the first run. Not after the first 20 but the very first run. The reason it's an easy button is because that means all you wound need to do is complete a raid one time to get any piece of raid gear.

Only if there is only 1 good piece of loot in the raid - in which case it should be looked at anyway. Plus there are those tomes on the 20th runs...



Raids and their loot are supposed to be saught after, hard to obtain peices of equipment, thats the hook.

In that case the OP's idea is also wrong...keep grinding hundreds of runs, that's fun right? I disagree with your premise.


If this were to be implemented you'd see people raiding once and then TRing to get that loot list again. I like the OPs suggestion a lot better though I doubt turbine sees 50 raid completions as an undue burden. Maybe if it was 100 ...

That's got to be the silliest argument yet. 50 runs is a HUGE burden for most players and one was is going to TR instead of doing 19 more runs for another piece of equipment unless they are a total fool. 3mill xp is a lot more grinding than 19 more runs at any raid.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-12-2010, 02:16 PM
I think that a full list on your first run, or even your 20th, is way too early and game breaking..

Define how its game breaking...I don't get it. Power gamers will still run up dozens of runs because for most runs they want more than 1 item in there (especially as old undesired items have epic options added) or they want two of some items (madstone boots for example) or they want tomes. They will keep raid grinding, just like they don't stop running now the first time they pull an item.

Casual gamers will never see 50, and maybe never 20 runs. It will equip them a little better, but they will still be underpowered next to their powergamer party members, so no game breaking action there.

Nope, I don't get it.

I suppose I could buy that TRs shouldn't get a first run full list, since they had it in their past life - but even for them, unless they stuck with the same class they might well need something totally different.

So help me out, how would a full list after run 1 break the game?

Diarden
05-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Alright Gunga. Just ran my 30th Epic Wiz King, no Deftness Bracer shard. I heard Divs pulls em all the time... so bring him to my epic wiz kings to get me a shard, and ill give him the litany I get =p

Nuckoholic
05-12-2010, 02:27 PM
Hmm...some good points.

How about:

After the 20th run, only half of the items (random) show up on the reward list. Then, on the 40th, the other half of the items show up on the reward list. Repeat this system for every 40 runs. This would mean that you are guaranteed a desired piece of raid loot every 4 months if you stay on timer, but you also have a chance to get it within 2 months if you're lucky.

Tome appearances should still stay at the same rate though.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 02:36 PM
In that case the OP's idea is also wrong...keep grinding hundreds of runs, that's fun right? I disagree with your premise.

You are really missing the point. We disagree about how the game works fundamentally, so we are going to disagree on very specific details like this one.

I think the game is fine right now, you think that there is too much grinding. I can't help you with that - if you don't have the time to play, don't play.

The detail that I'm describing here is to stop people from having to run 100s of times. Above, you are using the fallacy that either you get an option to have everything on your first run, or you have to run 100s of times.

I think that there is a middle ground, we just have to find it.


Define how its game breaking...I don't get it. Power gamers will still run up dozens of runs because for most runs they want more than 1 item in there (especially as old undesired items have epic options added) or they want two of some items (madstone boots for example) or they want tomes. They will keep raid grinding, just like they don't stop running now the first time they pull an item.

Casual gamers will never see 50, and maybe never 20 runs. It will equip them a little better, but they will still be underpowered next to their powergamer party members, so no game breaking action there.

Nope, I don't get it.

I suppose I could buy that TRs shouldn't get a first run full list, since they had it in their past life - but even for them, unless they stuck with the same class they might well need something totally different.

So help me out, how would a full list after run 1 break the game?

It's been explained already, but I'll say it again if you need to hear it again.

Many people would stop running the raid if they got the loot they're looking for.

I hate the Titan - I stopped running it after I got my chattering ring in 33 raids. I only ran it on my ac toon to get that ring.

If everyone stopped running raids on their second run, people like you and other pugs who don't get to play that often WOULD MISS THEIR FIRST RUN.

Do you think that the hard core guys who have everything they need are going to form a raid exactly when you log on to hold your hand just so you can get your one completion? As a "Casual" player who wants everything handed to them, do you think you'll have the resources available to you to learn a raid and complete it to even get to your first end reward list?

YOUR VERY OWN SUGGESTION is game breaking for you, my friend, not me. I play.

arminius
05-12-2010, 03:43 PM
How about:

Present exactly one random half of the loot on 20th run (+ tomes as applicable).

Store that information.

Present exactly the one half of the loot not presented on the first multiple-of-20 run on the 40th run (+ tomes as applicable) (ie, the inverse list of the 20th run). Subsequent multiple-of-20 runs present random list as per the standard today.

So that you are 100% guaranteed to get the full list by your 40th run, and if you were just greedy and took a tome instead that's your problem. It solves 20 being too early, and 100+ being way too late. (Love your posts Lorien but have to disagree with you on "1".)

Really none of this should be an issue if they weren't so stingy with the loot dropping in regular runs. It is now ASSUMED that stuff like the Hound shields and the Chattering Ring are multiple-of-20 drops only. That just sucks.

biggin
05-12-2010, 04:05 PM
On my 20th ToD I pulled a +4 Wis on my Barb.

And I ate it. :D

Yep, it's just one of those random things. I think the most argued over peice of raid loot I see is Tharne's Goggles and we had 4 drop in one pop, 1 pair almost getting left in the chest because noone wanted them.

I like the randomness of the drops, sometimes you get skunked, sometimes mana falls from heaven. But having (x)th completion have a higher drop rate that increases over time would be nice, especially to those casual players who don't have the time other players have. And when your raids get in the 500-1000 range of completions and still no +3 main stat tomes.......

I also don't think it would grind raiding down to a halt either, especially with TR's now, epic, etc. Power gamers will keep going for tomes, future items, and really, what else is there to do? I'm not going to create 50 alts and run Korthos until my eyes bleed. End game raiding only stops when either guildies need help or I'm on timer, and I doubt I'm in the minority.

sultanica
05-12-2010, 04:06 PM
I think more people would be inclined to play DDO and "keep" playing DDO if the drop rates were improved.
People with real life things to do, do not have the time to farm for items. Especially when the odds are about on par with winning the lottery.

If DDO seriously wanted to retain a faithful userbase (beyond the hardcore) they should keep in mind that time is precious. If a user only has a couple of hours to play a day/week and an item never drops; odds are good the player will stop playing as frequently due to frustration (or quit altogether).

Perhaps re-balance the loot drops based on dungeon difficulty.

Normal = Better odds of loot drop for people with less time to farm. So maybe 1 in 10 chance to drop an item. This would be more incentive to repeat quests and stay "interested" in playing DDO.

For those who want a challenge and/or enjoy grinding the midnight oil, stick to elite/epic.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 04:49 PM
I think more people would be inclined to play DDO and "keep" playing DDO if the drop rates were improved.
People with real life things to do, do not have the time to farm for items. Especially when the odds are about on par with winning the lottery.

If DDO seriously wanted to retain a faithful userbase (beyond the hardcore) they should keep in mind that time is precious. If a user only has a couple of hours to play a day/week and an item never drops; odds are good the player will stop playing as frequently due to frustration (or quit altogether).

Perhaps re-balance the loot drops based on dungeon difficulty.

Normal = Better odds of loot drop for people with less time to farm. So maybe 1 in 10 chance to drop an item. This would be more incentive to repeat quests and stay "interested" in playing DDO.

For those who want a challenge and/or enjoy grinding the midnight oil, stick to elite/epic.

I don't think that the game will work if everybody wins all the time.

Not getting what you want actually builds character, so to speak.

If you actually run a raid 50 times, you will be a better player and an expert in that raid. You get more than just the loot you're looking for.

Not a bad consolation.

Lleren
05-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Hmm...some good points.

How about:

After the 20th run, only half of the items (random) show up on the reward list. Then, on the 40th, the other half of the items show up on the reward list. Repeat this system for every 40 runs. This would mean that you are guaranteed a desired piece of raid loot every 4 months if you stay on timer, but you also have a chance to get it within 2 months if you're lucky.

Tome appearances should still stay at the same rate though.

I would be quite happy with this as well.

Fomori
05-12-2010, 05:14 PM
What about a 100% chance (instead of the usual % for that raid/diff) of getting a raid drop in the warded chest, on your first run. This way you might get lucky and get that item you want, but there is chance you will not.

This would appeal to casual players as they will get the taste of raid loot, but it is not game breaking to where they get to pick and choose. Also for this one freebie base it on class rewards. Thus you wont get a pure caster who cries because he ran the hound and got the breastplate.

I dont think this is an easy button as its simply making sure you'll have something instead of the usual wondering. Granted that is not always the best of the somethings but its better than giving them the pick of the litter.

biggin
05-12-2010, 05:22 PM
What about a 100% chance (instead of the usual % for that raid/diff) of getting a raid drop in the warded chest, on your first run. This way you might get lucky and get that item you want, but there is chance you will not.

This would appeal to casual players as they will get the taste of raid loot, but it is not game breaking to where they get to pick and choose. Also for this one freebie base it on class rewards. Thus you wont get a pure caster who cries because he ran the hound and got the breastplate.

I dont think this is an easy button as its simply making sure you'll have something instead of the usual wondering. Granted that is not always the best of the somethings but its better than giving them the pick of the litter.

And as a side note, elite guilds start forming junior memberships for first time raiders. :)

Not a bad idea though.

Bobthesponge
05-12-2010, 05:30 PM
this idea is a little bit too much of an easy button if ya ask me. While the new/casual guys are behind the power curve for gear thats kinda what happens when you are new or havent put in the same hours of work on something, you gotta play catch up.

While something should be done to fix the 80+ runs and still no <insert raid loot here> this just goes a little too far IMO.

+1 rep. good call. DDO should not be about making things easy. rare raid loot is supposed to be just that: rare. i pulled a torq on my sorc on his 4th DQ but in 100s of runs have only pulled one bloodstone. these things happen.

Tharlak
05-12-2010, 05:59 PM
I'm for an increasing probability of raid loot dropping per run. Each run adds a 2-5% chance of an item dropping (depending on the length of grind that feels right). Once an item drops for the character it's "out of the rotation" and the counter resets. This would guarantee that over a course of runs a character would be able to get a desired item, but would not eliminate the need to work towards the reward.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-12-2010, 06:07 PM
You are really missing the point. We disagree about how the game works fundamentally, so we are going to disagree on very specific details like this one.

I think the game is fine right now, you think that there is too much grinding. I can't help you with that - if you don't have the time to play, don't play.

The detail that I'm describing here is to stop people from having to run 100s of times. Above, you are using the fallacy that either you get an option to have everything on your first run, or you have to run 100s of times.

I think that there is a middle ground, we just have to find it.

We both think there is too much grinding, you just have a different frustration point. If grinding 20 times is ok, why not 50? If 50 is ok, why not 100? If 100 is ok, why not 200?

Your logic for why it is game breaking would support not every giving you a guarenteed run, because by your logic, continued grinding of power gamers is good for the game.



YOUR VERY OWN SUGGESTION is game breaking for you, my friend, not me. I play.

This is less about me than other newer players. I'm not sure I'll roll too many new characters beyond TRs, and I'll TR into things that can reuse most of the raid loot they already have.

Not getting that first piece of raid loot for a new player is a really frustrating experience. You feel so underequiped, you don't feel you are contributing, and you don't think you can ever attain those magic 20 runs that will get you what you need. Putting a few pieces of loot in people's hands can only be good for the game.

You want a compromise? Give a "20th run" type part list of items on the 1st run and keep your full list for 50/100/1billion runs. I just want to put SOMETHING from raids into the hands of new players to keep them engaged.

Lorien_the_First_One
05-12-2010, 06:10 PM
I don't think that the game will work if everybody wins all the time.

Not getting what you want actually builds character, so to speak.

If you actually run a raid 50 times, you will be a better player and an expert in that raid. You get more than just the loot you're looking for.

Not a bad consolation.

I agree with your first two sentances, and then we split.

You have no idea how few players will ever see 50 raids on 1 character. I know, when you are in the forums or running with the established guilds full of power gamers everyone has on each character 100 shroud runs, 50 titans, 50 VoDs, etc, etc, but I'd bet you real money that isn't the average player.

OB 101, targets need to be challenging, and yet attainable or they become disinsentive.

Baranor
05-12-2010, 06:17 PM
Maybe an easier change for Turbine to make would be all raid loot BTA instead of most being BTC.

Yes, the grind is still there but it gives everyone more tries at pulling DPS item x on their caster to be passed to their toon later or even rolling on item x.

while I like this idea in theory, in practice not sure if it would work too well.
for instance when my fighter pulled the torc the other day, I'm sure there would have been several ppl swearing at their computers when I took it.

however, considering I'm sure we'll never see greensteal deconstruction, I'd love to see that go BtA. At least then I'm sure I could find some use for useless pcs taking up bankspace

Jendrak
05-12-2010, 06:43 PM
Only if there is only 1 good piece of loot in the raid - in which case it should be looked at anyway. Plus there are those tomes on the 20th runs...

If you give full lists on the 1st run you are encouraging people to run a raid raid 1 time and never doing it again. This is bad for business and bad for the game.

Full lists on 1st run = EPIC FAIL!!!!


In that case the OP's idea is also wrong...keep grinding hundreds of runs, that's fun right? I disagree with your premise.

Ok now your just takeing one thing out of context. I said that some items should have the %to-drop adjusted to make them drop at the same rate as everything else. This whould add the boost the OP was talkign about without makeing it an easy button like you suggested. What I did not say was to ignore everything and continue business as usual.

Gunga
05-12-2010, 10:02 PM
If grinding 20 times is ok, why not 50? If 50 is ok, why not 100? If 100 is ok, why not 200?

Are you being purposefully dense? Did you not fully read my 17 posts?

FIFTY. Not 100, 200 or a billion.

50.

This is my extraordinarily educated guess, an expert opinion on what the right number would be.

It is not, "20, 50, 100 or 1000." My expert opinion of 50 is very precise and well chosen.

I invite you to give us your opinion, but blathering on about it either being 1 or 1,000,000 does nothing for your credibility.

Also, I don't think you know much if anything about the newb experience as you would have us believe. You don't speak as if you do.

I think that the new players of this game are absolutely stunned by how great it is. I was. I wanted to learn everything I possibly could about it. I wanted to run it and run it and run it. I wanted to learn quests. My first raid experience, I was thrilled to have been a part of it and completed. I didn't know what loot dropped nor did I care. I couldn't wait to run it again.

The more you lobby, the more it sounds like you just want an easy button, and if that's the case, than your are preaching to the wrong sinner.

ColinQ
05-12-2010, 10:57 PM
How about:

Present exactly one random half of the loot on 20th run (+ tomes as applicable).

Store that information.

Present exactly the one half of the loot not presented on the first multiple-of-20 run on the 40th run (+ tomes as applicable) (ie, the inverse list of the 20th run). Subsequent multiple-of-20 runs present random list as per the standard today.

So that you are 100% guaranteed to get the full list by your 40th run, and if you were just greedy and took a tome instead that's your problem. It solves 20 being too early, and 100+ being way too late. (Love your posts Lorien but have to disagree with you on "1".)

Really none of this should be an issue if they weren't so stingy with the loot dropping in regular runs. It is now ASSUMED that stuff like the Hound shields and the Chattering Ring are multiple-of-20 drops only. That just sucks.

So if Litany + staff of practitioner show up on my 20th run
I’m doomed to repeat abbot x60….

sultanica
05-13-2010, 11:38 AM
FIFTY

50 is a bit much.
Perhaps even obsessive compulsive.

If you personally enjoy and get your kicks from running a quest 50 times or more, that's your thing.

Some math...
If a VIP has the default 10 character slots and levels each to 20, then for each quest/raid with special wanted drops they will have done in excess of 500 runs.

If your life is DDO 24/7, fine; waste it however you want, it's your choice. How l33t.

IMHO 10 times for a drop is way more acceptable and doable for most part time players.

vVAnjilaVv
05-13-2010, 11:44 AM
I'd like to make a suggestion regarding loot drop rates.

Please initiate a stop loss for those poor saps who have slowly, raid after raid after raid, slid into the cesspool of hopeless misfortune (Divs).

Perhaps, upon completing a raid 50 times, and every 50th thereafter, your end reward list is populated with EVERYTHING AVAILABLE from that raid. Tomes can remain randomly generated.

Even though an additional raid counter would have to be implemented by the fine young programming minds at Turbine, in this case, I feel that the time invested would be much appreciated by a proponderance of gaming mammals.

And might even stop Divs, who is on his 65th abbot without a litany, from tracking down and killing Dirdee when Dirdee logs on for his monthly appearance and pulls his 3rd Litany in 3 months.

Dirdee's family thanks you.

I have suggested this alternative many times....make a full list available once...and one time only. After this one time you WILL NOT get a partial every x20.

SO make it like after your 1st 20 completions you get a full list...after that point no more partials and you can only get raid loot inside the quest.

Quite honestly I think people expecting more than one piece of raid loot from a specific raid is just greed opitimized, aside from set bonuses...that's an exception........in the spirit of the roots of the game they are already supposed to be rare items the loot gods bless some to have and forsake others to never have.

spyderwolf
05-13-2010, 01:53 PM
id be in favor of slight readjustments to raid loot drop rates. it took 134 runs on my pally to get the titan belt. it took 104 runs to even see it drop. thats with the frts 32 runs having 2 guaranteed drops pre mod 5. and the last 102 runs having 10+ people in them each run. on the 40th,60th,80th,100th, and 120th end rewards also didnt get belt. that was moderatly ridiculous to have to spend 134 runs to get something.

Emili
05-13-2010, 03:03 PM
If we went back to that way, there would be 100 of us on each server with 2 of every peice of loot on all toons and the rest of the server crying.

I'm really ok with how things are now, just give us what we're farming for AT SOME POINT.

Show us the light.
Being facetious I was...

Thoughts of how bloody unfair some things were when the chance for loot were in hands which may be tainted by greed.

Much the issue with loot be... when everyone have it, the game becomes less a challenge while the drawback of lacking loot, means less success beyond that where the loot hails from... Loot drives the games repetition, loot denotes the challenge of the next big successful quest... where be even better loot. Is quite circular.

Thucydides04
05-13-2010, 05:09 PM
Why not just drop the number of completions required from say 20 to 15 thus at 60 completes youve seen 4 loot tables instead of 3. Or, after the 20th require only 10 more runs for loot tables. After 20 runs in 1 quest (shroud aside) not having your raid loot kinda sucks especially for raids like titan, abbot and tod.

Gunga
05-13-2010, 05:39 PM
50 is a bit much.
Perhaps even obsessive compulsive.

If you personally enjoy and get your kicks from running a quest 50 times or more, that's your thing.

Some math...
If a VIP has the default 10 character slots and levels each to 20, then for each quest/raid with special wanted drops they will have done in excess of 500 runs.

If your life is DDO 24/7, fine; waste it however you want, it's your choice. How l33t.

IMHO 10 times for a drop is way more acceptable and doable for most part time players.

How do you have 10 toons with raid loot if you're not leet?

You could have 20 toons and never leave the Harbor.

Your assumptions don't work. Get them straight and 50 will start making more sense.

Gunga
05-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Being facetious I was...

Thoughts of how bloody unfair some things were when the chance for loot were in hands which may be tainted by greed.

Much the issue with loot be... when everyone have it, the game becomes less a challenge while the drawback of lacking loot, means less success beyond that where the loot hails from... Loot drives the games repetition, loot denotes the challenge of the next big successful quest... where be even better loot. Is quite circular.


I know you were kidding. :D

Actually, Em, it seems like the raid loot itself never stops people from grinding for hopes of a tome drop. Even if everyone had every peice of loot they needed, raids that dropped +3 or better tomes would be run regularly.

Memnir
05-13-2010, 05:43 PM
I very much like the idea of the full list on a 50th run. If you've run a raid that much, and still need something from it - you've earned it.


/signed

Gunga
05-13-2010, 05:57 PM
I very much like the idea of the full list on a 50th run. If you've run a raid that much, and still need something from it - you've earned it.


/signed

Hey.

I ReMemnir you...

Arkat
05-13-2010, 09:22 PM
qft

or at least bump the 20th end reward list from 50% to the 66-75% range.

Wait, isnt DDO supposed to be the grindless MMO?? Maybe Div has pulled his littany several times but lies for pity

There. Gave you the +1 Rep to make up for the neg rep I shouldn't have given you a week ago. :)

Arkat
05-13-2010, 09:25 PM
l33t

No



1337

Yes

Lorien_the_First_One
05-13-2010, 09:39 PM
Are you being purposefully dense? Did you not fully read my 17 posts?

FIFTY. Not 100, 200 or a billion.

50.

This is my extraordinarily educated guess, an expert opinion on what the right number would be.

I could say the same about your post. 50 is an arbitrary number where you think its too much. That's all.


It is not, "20, 50, 100 or 1000." My expert opinion of 50 is very precise and well chosen.




The more you lobby, the more it sounds like you just want an easy button, and if that's the case, than your are preaching to the wrong sinner.

Ah, then you really aren't paying attention to my posts. I already said that I would be happy for it not to apply to TRs and that I doubt I will make many (if any) new characters other than TRs. This isn't to help me at all.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-13-2010, 09:51 PM
I'm just wondering, after you guys get the raid loot that you want.....what quests will you run?





















Brb 20. LFM Sacred Helm. need elite opener and guide. :cool:

vVAnjilaVv
05-14-2010, 02:25 AM
I'm just wondering, after you guys get the raid loot that you want.....what quests will you run?





















Brb 20. LFM Sacred Helm. need elite opener and guide. :cool:
You have a good point there, but really at a certain point DDO just ends and I find the only revival I get is leveling a new character. Even when new content is released it's obliterated so quickly it becomes stagnant fast if you are centered on only doing that.

Once I hit cap I am a very casual raider, because like it or not the way things are now, you could get what you want in one run...or you could get it in 200.......I won't revolve my life around that. The only thing I will run on a regular basis is the Shroud.

I really see raid loot as convenience items so you can complete tasks quicker, they are not necessary except for super high end content maybe sometimes.

I find if I level a new character awhile then go back to one of my capped characters it's much more fun than just playing my capped character over and over to get something.....that just makes me sleepy...I need stimulation.

Lleren
05-14-2010, 06:33 AM
I'm just wondering, after you guys get the raid loot that you want.....what quests will you run?

It would require a decent chance for me to get Raid Loot for me to continue running any Raid twice a week per character, keeping up with Raid Timers, putting up with Pugs, etc.

As it is with 3 Shroud Flagged characters ( shortly to be 4 ) I tend to run it 4 to 5 times per week, Reavers Fate about 3 times, and other Raids once per month, maybe, and mainly to help guildies fill up the PuG they are in.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-14-2010, 06:35 AM
You have a good point there, but really at a certain point DDO just ends and I find the only revival I get is leveling a new character. Even when new content is released it's obliterated so quickly it becomes stagnant fast if you are centered on only doing that.

Once I hit cap I am a very casual raider, because like it or not the way things are now, you could get what you want in one run...or you could get it in 200.......I won't revolve my life around that. The only thing I will run on a regular basis is the Shroud.

I really see raid loot as convenience items so you can complete tasks quicker, they are not necessary except for super high end content maybe sometimes.

I find if I level a new character awhile then go back to one of my capped characters it's much more fun than just playing my capped character over and over to get something.....that just makes me sleepy...I need stimulation.

From what I see, the only motivation to run quests at end game....or at all....is loot.
Some motivation while (re)leveling for XP/Min.

Not necessarily true of the first char being leveled up. but even then, I see a race to cap with content being skipped...

I see LFMs for (insert raid name) 2of6. Leading me to believe the guy has six alts and he will be runing them all through every raid one after another. (not sure what he will be doing the next three days...maybe it's his day off of work or something)

People complain about the grind, but from what I see the grind is all they game for.

Chars are built around being able to whack on an end boss.
Quests are run on casual or elite for loot only.
preraids are soloed while the FLM for casual is filled.

How many people have run "in the Demon's Den" on elite yet? (or normal for that matter) It's a failrly new quest. But no named loot.

Reaver's Refuge quests are only run on casual for essences.

The only thing I see are people doing quests as easily and quickly as possible for loot.

Loot they will (only) use to do the same quests more easily and more quickly.....

They claim to enjoy the raids, but I really wonder....would they really run them once they get all the loot they want?

be careful what you ask for.....you just might get it.

Thucydides04
05-14-2010, 06:53 AM
From what I see, the only motivation to run quests at end game....or at all....is loot.
Some motivation while (re)leveling for XP/Min.

Not necessarily true of the first char being leveled up. but even then, I see a race to cap with content being skipped...

I see LFMs for (insert raid name) 2of6. Leading me to believe the guy has six alts and he will be runing them all through every raid one after another. (not sure what he will be doing the next three days...maybe it's his day off of work or something)

People complain about the grind, but from what I see the grind is all they game for.

Chars are built around being able to whack on an end boss.
Quests are run on casual or elite for loot only.
preraids are soloed while the FLM for casual is filled.

How many people have run "in the Demon's Den" on elite yet? (or normal for that matter) It's a failrly new quest. But no named loot.

Reaver's Refuge quests are only run on casual for essences.

The only thing I see are people doing quests as easily and quickly as possible for loot.

Loot they will (only) use to do the same quests more easily and more quickly.....

They claim to enjoy the raids, but I really wonder....would they really run them once they get all the loot they want?

be careful what you ask for.....you just might get it.

To be honest with you it is more about completing my toons to me. I like seeing things through to the end. Furthermore, I have TR plans and when I hit 20 and get no tome or raid loot and have to grind to 40 then 60... that is 2-6 months of waiting.

Just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't make it better for me or anybody else. I enjoy building my characters, and most quests are fun, but running Titan (for example) 20 times is not fun, especially when you dont get the loot you are looking for.

My most recent toon who completed 20 Titans did not see a chattering ring a belt or gloves drop during any of the 20 runs and only the chattering ring dropped for 20 (phew). Just saying, some of us want to get our loot and move on.

If you want to take a casual approach to raiding that is fine too but understand that for some people the enjoyment isn't exclusively derived from running a quest or socializing w/ friends and guildies. Some actually enjoy the process of building and completing toons and want to do it more but unfortunately, raid timers impede progress.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-14-2010, 07:08 AM
To be honest with you it is more about completing my toons to me. I like seeing things through to the end. Furthermore, I have TR plans and when I hit 20 and get no tome or raid loot and have to grind to 40 then 60... that is 2-6 months of waiting.

Just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't make it better for me or anybody else. I enjoy building my characters, and most quests are fun, but running Titan (for example) 20 times is not fun, especially when you dont get the loot you are looking for.

My most recent toon who completed 20 Titans did not see a chattering ring a belt or gloves drop during any of the 20 runs and only the chattering ring dropped for 20 (phew). Just saying, some of us want to get our loot and move on.

If you want to take a casual approach to raiding that is fine too but understand that for some people the enjoyment isn't exclusively derived from running a quest or socializing w/ friends and guildies. Some actually enjoy the process of building and completing toons and want to do it more but unfortunately, raid timers impede progress.

But once you complete it....then what?
TR just to get more build points, and a few extra feats?
And when you do your TR what quests will you run? I'm kinda betting you will relevel to 20 as fast as possible...and it will feel like a grind.
And after the TR....then what?

I know people don't really think about that....they just do what is fun. And right now what is fun is getting the loot....or trying to get the loot.

I know the grind is not fun, but from what I see the grind is all they do.

So I really wonder, how long will they stay in the game after the grind is done?

Cause when you break it all down, the build advice, the noob hate, the XP/min race. The loot runs, the multiple raids.
It seems to only motivation is to get the loot.

So when you finally do get the loot.....what now?

I'm just not convinced that speeding up the grind is good for the game.

vVAnjilaVv
05-14-2010, 07:14 AM
Furthermore, I have TR plans and when I hit 20 and get no tome or raid loot and have to grind to 40 then 60... that is 2-6 months of waiting.

Just because you like to do things a certain way doesn't make it better for me or anybody else. I enjoy building my characters, and most quests are fun, but running Titan (for example) 20 times is not fun, especially when you dont get the loot you are looking for.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to take a casual approach to raiding that is fine too but understand that for some people the enjoyment isn't exclusively derived from running a quest or socializing w/ friends and guildies. Some actually enjoy the process of building and completing toons and want to do it more but unfortunately, raid timers impede progress.

It almost seems like what you say in first two paragraphs above implies that you don't enjoy it....unless I read that wrong.

EDIT...I worded that wrong the first time :D

Gunga
05-14-2010, 08:38 AM
To be honest with you it is more about completing my toons to me. I like seeing things through to the end. Furthermore, I have TR plans and when I hit 20 and get no tome or raid loot and have to grind to 40 then 60... that is 2-6 months of waiting.


To be honest though, you don't need your raid loot in 20 runs so you can TR. There are people who have toons that are years old without all the gear they want...you are complaining about not getting everything you want in 2 months?

Different perspectives for sure, but I'm not asking for everything I need in 2 months.

I just want to stop the loss from being never. Which is what the current system seems like it is.

Thucydides04
05-14-2010, 01:23 PM
But once you complete it....then what?
TR just to get more build points, and a few extra feats?
And when you do your TR what quests will you run? I'm kinda betting you will relevel to 20 as fast as possible...and it will feel like a grind.
And after the TR....then what?

I know people don't really think about that....they just do what is fun. And right now what is fun is getting the loot....or trying to get the loot.

I know the grind is not fun, but from what I see the grind is all they do.

So I really wonder, how long will they stay in the game after the grind is done?

Cause when you break it all down, the build advice, the noob hate, the XP/min race. The loot runs, the multiple raids.
It seems to only motivation is to get the loot.

So when you finally do get the loot.....what now?

I'm just not convinced that speeding up the grind is good for the game.

I like to continuously refine my builds, to me that is fun. I also like to try different things out with builds. I agree with the op in the sense that there needs to be a point when you can be certain you will have your loot.

As far as it not being good for the game, I disagree completely, once you've finished your str based rogue you can move on to try a warchanter and so on... making a more rounded player who has better knowledge of what classes can do and how to run quests.

As far as the rest of the stuff goes, I derive much of my enjoyment in this game from things that may be different from other players. Ensuring that after so many trips through a dungeon I can finally get the item I was looking for is a good idea in my mind.

Thucydides04
05-14-2010, 01:26 PM
It almost seems like what you say in first two paragraphs above implies that you don't enjoy it....unless I read that wrong.

EDIT...I worded that wrong the first time :D

I enjoy it, especially since the guild I am in have great people in them who make any raid fun. But, what I do not enjoy is running certain quests over and over (Titan I am looking at you) and not getting the loot I have been looking for. I like building toons and running with guildies etc. But to me, the most satisfaction I derive outside of the social aspects of the game is when I complete my toons.

Phidius
05-14-2010, 02:21 PM
...be careful what you ask for.....you just might get it.

Grind has become an integral part of the DDO experience. You ask what I would do if I had all the loot I wanted for my character? I'd start up a new character, one I've never played before, and experience the game all over again from a new perspective. If it wasn't for the grind...

As it stands, the horrendous nature of the grind keeps me from playing a Barbarian, Bard, Paladin, Sorceror, etc... because if I want to play my "perfect build", it will take years to get all the gear I plan out for them.

And so I grind for my 3 main characters, waiting for the day when the pain of grinding outweighs the rewards.

Lleren
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
So when you finally do get the loot.....what now?

I'm just not convinced that speeding up the grind is good for the game.

If I have reached the stage of the game where it is "Grind", then by at least one definition I have worked past the fun of the game.

Simply put, Grinding for items I want is not fun. Playing for items I want is fun. The point where it turns from Playing to Grinding is likely different for each individual. We could likely graph it with enough research, and depending on some factors create an interesting bell curve. I think polling for the data would be quite inaccurate though.

Cyr
05-14-2010, 02:39 PM
50 raid runs would take a LONG time. After 50 raid runs if Turbine is doing their job there should be a new grind ready to be undertaken by that time. 50 raids ~150 days if you always hit your timer every 3 days. That is half a year. I'm pretty sure that Turbine can manage to get out at least one new raid every six months.

So to the OP

/signed

Edit: Oh and I of course think this should be implemented on EPIC raids also for shards.

rimble
05-14-2010, 02:41 PM
SOMETHING would be nice. The current situation is extremely discouraging, I hardly bother to participate. It's already sad you are practically guaranteed to need to wait until your 20 for a shot at the thing you want (at least that's how my luck is) so that's 60 days in the ideal case...more like double that for the more casual players. Pursuing a single item for 4 months? Thanks for the offer, but no thanks, not interested.

I s'pose, ideally, you're building up multiple 20th completions across several raids...but then that means I just do the same thing over and over and over...for 4 months. Again, I appreciate the effort, but no thank you.

They wanna create painful inconveniences and then give us a way to buy our way around it? Sell a +Completions item in the store. This item adds +Completion to the next Raid you complete. [Note: I would not buy such a thing, I have a very low tolerance for what I consider extortion via poor features.]

Personally, I think 20 runs is way more than sufficient for a full loot list.

Will people be more likely to 'finish' the game? Maybe. Why not just let them? Let people finish! Introduce more, they'll come back and finish again...rinse and repeat. With TRs, too, there's alot to keep them busy.

Thrudh
05-14-2010, 03:01 PM
What about a 100% chance (instead of the usual % for that raid/diff) of getting a raid drop in the warded chest, on your first run.

I like this... Random raid item first run... Plus full list every 20 runs.

rimble
05-14-2010, 03:08 PM
I like this... Random raid item first run... Plus full list every 20 runs.

Hmm...so what are the social implications of that...? Would too many try too hard to create groups of first-time runners, hehe?

It would at least be a ticket to a definite invite to the group, regardless of your horrible build, hehe...well, once...

Cyr
05-14-2010, 03:27 PM
Hmm...so what are the social implications of that...? Would too many try too hard to create groups of first-time runners, hehe?

It would at least be a ticket to a definite invite to the group, regardless of your horrible build, hehe...well, once...

I can see it now. LFM reads "Looking for six first timer in the raid arcanes who are willing to put an epic SoS shard up for roll".

"Looking for six first time melee" -> DQ raid with caster group leader.

"Looking for six first time players who can sit afk inside of quest as long as they put their item up for role. Great learning experience!"

I'm pretty sure that this suggestion would be a farily bad idea due to this...

Thucydides04
05-14-2010, 04:10 PM
Quite frankly there are enough raids and raid loot out there that 10-15 raid completes should be enough. Consider you roll a new toon, you have to run VoD, Hound, Titan, Stormreaver, Shroud, ToD, and Velah. Running all of those raids every 3 days takes a bit of time. Then you add in the epic grind (which it is) and the tome grind and the Reavers Refuge EPIC Grind and TR. Plus you're helping guildies out etc.

I think speeding up the grind will just bring things back down to the levels they were at before when people did not have as many things to grind. If you want to be casual, this will still work for you. Believe me, I have been working on a few toons pretty hard the last 6 months and I feel kind of guilty when I miss a raid when my timers pop.

vVAnjilaVv
05-14-2010, 04:14 PM
I enjoy it, especially since the guild I am in have great people in them who make any raid fun. But, what I do not enjoy is running certain quests over and over (Titan I am looking at you) and not getting the loot I have been looking for. I like building toons and running with guildies etc. But to me, the most satisfaction I derive outside of the social aspects of the game is when I complete my toons.

Oh I know what you mean...we all need goals to strive for......I have just never been able to muster up the fortitude to put any hope into getting rare items. Sure I try for them.....I do raids and ransack rare item chests......but I will never base my character being completed around it...tho I do know what you are saying.

If that's what makes u happy it's great, and I really wish they would put some kind of guarantee in, I mean if u do a raid 20+ times, especially with the given raid timers....I think you deserve something. 20 raids is roughly ten weeks worth of waiting if u don't get it. Heck I would even go for reduced drop rates in the warded chest for a full list at your 20th. It would make the raid scene explode and people would try a lot harder. Right now it's just making people tired and po'ed.

But alas that is not the case atm, and until that changes my attitude towards rare/raid loot will never be anything more than casual......to me the frustration and disappointment is not worth it.

vVAnjilaVv
05-14-2010, 04:16 PM
I'm just not convinced that speeding up the grind is good for the game.

Yeah but neither is beating a dead horse until your numb.

Valindria
05-14-2010, 05:10 PM
50 raid runs would take a LONG time. After 50 raid runs if Turbine is doing their job there should be a new grind ready to be undertaken by that time. 50 raids ~150 days if you always hit your timer every 3 days. That is half a year. I'm pretty sure that Turbine can manage to get out at least one new raid every six months.

So to the OP

/signed

Edit: Oh and I of course think this should be implemented on EPIC raids also for shards.

I like both.

/signed.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-14-2010, 07:54 PM
Yeah but neither is beating a dead horse until your numb.

yeah....and I agree with some of what others say too.

I've got alts who will probably never be well equiped....but that even includes Green Steel. As I would get real bored running the Shroud often enough to equip every char I had with 3+ tier 3 items. And I actually like the Shroud.

Other raids loot though, there is no chance I will run them enough to plan my alts getting certain items.

Luckily, I've actually been very lucky with named loot drops. Since the change in raid loot from the old system, I've gotten quite a lot of the best items on my chars.
My Rogue on Argo got Tharnes goggles drop in my name on her fist VoD run! /ducks :D

I try to take a laid back approach and consider named items a bonus, and not to keep running a raid forever for most of them.

One thing I worry about is the gap between the hard core and the casual players. The grind helps keep that gap small....or at least slow to grow.

But maybe increasing the value of random loot would help there as well. Right now random loot is almost garbage past a certain level. There's only so many Deathblock Robes of Greater Shadow that my monk can use. :rolleyes:

vVAnjilaVv
05-15-2010, 07:43 AM
yeah....and I agree with some of what others say too.

I've got alts who will probably never be well equiped....but that even includes Green Steel. As I would get real bored running the Shroud often enough to equip every char I had with 3+ tier 3 items. And I actually like the Shroud.

Other raids loot though, there is no chance I will run them enough to plan my alts getting certain items.

Luckily, I've actually been very lucky with named loot drops. Since the change in raid loot from the old system, I've gotten quite a lot of the best items on my chars.
My Rogue on Argo got Tharnes goggles drop in my name on her fist VoD run! /ducks :D

I try to take a laid back approach and consider named items a bonus, and not to keep running a raid forever for most of them.

One thing I worry about is the gap between the hard core and the casual players. The grind helps keep that gap small....or at least slow to grow.

But maybe increasing the value of random loot would help there as well. Right now random loot is almost garbage past a certain level. There's only so many Deathblock Robes of Greater Shadow that my monk can use. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I too have mixed feelings about this whole thing....while the people who dedicate themselves to it should be rewarded at some point....and not after 300 runs.....it's also a game of fun and adventure. You should be able to have fun with your Barbarian without needing an Epic SoS, Scourge Choker, Madstone Boots, The Ravager Set and 3 other rare items.

They really do need to make some kind of compromise with this tho.

Me personally, I have never really had issues with obtaining raid loot....I have gotten the Fullplate from VoD on my first run twice.....Lorrick's and Levik's three times on my first run.....My Chatterring ring was on my first X20 completion list.

If they could find a way tho maybe to exclude stuff that either you pulled from the warded chest by either it being their for you to begin with or having it given to you and reduce stuff that was in their for u even if u handed it away...it would at least be come consolation.

They would have to cover all these bases tho, as if they didn't people would be taking any raid loot in the chest even if their character could not use it just to eliminate it from their x20 list.

Anthios888
05-15-2010, 08:05 AM
Add to this great suggestion:

Raids on epic difficulty should drop a new item next to the epic token called a "loot stamp." Turn in a set number of these loot stamps for lists of shards or seals from that raid.

Rationale:
Many of us powergamers don't mind spending some time working for the best items in the game. But we always like a sense of progress when we complete something. 20th lists at least offer that incremental accomplishment and a chance at a fair shake. Epic, (and Divs will also agree with me) is e n d l e s s. The idea of making loot is but a mirage in the desert...

vVAnjilaVv
05-15-2010, 10:44 AM
But we always like a sense of progress when we complete something.

The fact that this is not honored is one of this games greatest banes.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-15-2010, 11:39 AM
Add to this great suggestion:

Raids on epic difficulty should drop a new item next to the epic token called a "loot stamp." Turn in a set number of these loot stamps for lists of shards or seals from that raid.

Rationale:
Many of us powergamers don't mind spending some time working for the best items in the game. But we always like a sense of progress when we complete something. 20th lists at least offer that incremental accomplishment and a chance at a fair shake. Epic, (and Divs will also agree with me) is e n d l e s s. The idea of making loot is but a mirage in the desert...

I pulled a Mirage in the Desert. :D


Yeah, I too have mixed feelings about this whole thing....while the people who dedicate themselves to it should be rewarded at some point....and not after 300 runs.....it's also a game of fun and adventure. You should be able to have fun with your Barbarian without needing an Epic SoS, Scourge Choker, Madstone Boots, The Ravager Set and 3 other rare items.

They really do need to make some kind of compromise with this tho.

Me personally, I have never really had issues with obtaining raid loot....I have gotten the Fullplate from VoD on my first run twice.....Lorrick's and Levik's three times on my first run.....My Chatterring ring was on my first X20 completion list.

If they could find a way tho maybe to exclude stuff that either you pulled from the warded chest by either it being their for you to begin with or having it given to you and reduce stuff that was in their for u even if u handed it away...it would at least be come consolation.

They would have to cover all these bases tho, as if they didn't people would be taking any raid loot in the chest even if their character could not use it just to eliminate it from their x20 list.

I have had some items drop in my name that I felt preassured to give to another class. But I would like for those items to be on my 20 completion list, because they would be kinda neat to have on my char. If I wanted something bad enough it wasn't a problem, but some iffy items I passed to others out of kindness, but I would have liked to have had it for myself.
For example, I wouldn't mind a set of Madstone Boots for my Wizard. But I would feel bad keeping them knowing I would hardly ever use them.

Now with TR that is even more likely to happen. Especially for those who succumb to the Completionist ideal.

Otherwise great suggestion though.

Scalion
05-15-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm not going to say whether or not these ideas are good, but I have a suggestion for a method of implementation rather than 50 runs getting you a chance at every available reward.

Completing a raid could provide an account bound token, and 50 tokens could be used at a special merchant to purchase the gear.

Rodrak
05-15-2010, 12:32 PM
Uhm... looking at the current droprates, I really doubt the devs want us to get more loot. You have to grind, grind and grind more, that's all. That's the reason why many "more casual" players like me avoid raids. There's a guy still playing on european server, who partially deciphered the game's loot tables and posted some of his findings on a private forum of his guild. It's... underwhelming. I don't remember exact examples at the moment, except this one: in TOD on normal, you have 0.27% chance of getting a random +4 tome in the end chest. Yes not even 1%. Grind FTW!

vVAnjilaVv
05-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Uhm... looking at the current droprates, I really doubt the devs want us to get more loot. You have to grind, grind and grind more, that's all. That's the reason why many "more casual" players like me avoid raids. There's a guy still playing on european server, who partially deciphered the game's loot tables and posted some of his findings on a private forum of his guild. It's... underwhelming. I don't remember exact examples at the moment, except this one: in TOD on normal, you have 0.27% chance of getting a random +4 tome in the end chest. Yes not even 1%. Grind FTW!

Yep...until things change if they ever do, I only casually grind raids....Shroud excluded. Wish they would make more raids like that one.

That's pretty low for the +4 tome....but luck is luck...and u would not believe how lucky some people can be.....and how some people having done a raid twice over past what the percentage might imply, still do not have what they are grinding for.

I'd have to say out of all the Raids currently, The Reaver's Fate seems to be the most generous with raid loot....so is Titan.

knightgf
05-15-2010, 02:44 PM
The one beef I always have is that loot is always BOUND. Bound this, bound that, and so on and so forth. I believe that, in any typical MMORPG, having loot that binds is usually important for some items. But I believe a good rule for any MMORPG is that If loot is bound, it should be somewhat easier to get than non-bound loot. I mean seriously, the loot will be yours, sooner or later. Why put a huge delay in getting the loot? Bound loot can only be obtained by looting that item, so therefore, the drop rates for that item should always be higher, though it shouldn't skyrocket, since otherwise the replay value for content will not be enough to keep the game going.

Comfortably
05-15-2010, 09:44 PM
Add to this great suggestion:

Raids on epic difficulty should drop a new item next to the epic token called a "loot stamp." Turn in a set number of these loot stamps for lists of shards or seals from that raid.

Rationale:
Many of us powergamers don't mind spending some time working for the best items in the game. But we always like a sense of progress when we complete something. 20th lists at least offer that incremental accomplishment and a chance at a fair shake. Epic, (and Divs will also agree with me) is e n d l e s s. The idea of making loot is but a mirage in the desert...

yes please