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tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 03:21 AM
A dark specter has fallen on high level DDO play, and that specter wears the garb of inflated mob hit points. What has caused even trash mob hit points to explode out of control and brought this monster of a problem to the game? For the most part the answer can be found in inflated melee DPS. Up thru 16th level of game play, many different classes bring many elements and strategies to the game. However, After that point, the game begins to focus more around being or supporting the melee DPS. This trend reaches epic proportions once epic content is attempted. In epic content play (and some other play), you either are melee DPS (80% of the customer base) or support for melee DPS.

On the surface, the solution to this problem seems simple....make the mobs harder to hit in melee, and then the mob hit points could return to a reasonable level. However, the melee lobby has a strangle hold on the developers the likes of which the gun and tobacco lobbies envy. If ever a step like this was taken, the developers would be deafened by the roar of canceled accounts. Therefore, it is probably impossible thru these means to re-cage the beast.

However, if you do not wish to be melee DPS or support for melee DPS (the other 20%) what are your options. Well, you could fire off a nasty note, rant about your wishes, then cancel your service. Or you could attempt to convince the powers in control to make some changes that wont impact their precious 80%, yet still keep the other 20% happy. A win/win approach. Currently the million ftp folks are moving up the level ladder and reaching high level status while spending much money. 20% of a million is a lot of folks. Perhaps enough of an incentive to convince these powers to put some effort into making them happy. More happy folk, more money. Win win win.

Along these lines I opened this thread as another means to bring suggestions on how to help non melee DPS classes get back to their roots and have fun playing in high level content. Please do not rant about the problems of epic play. Rather post short specific ways your pet non DPS melee class (stick to one class per post if possible) can regain its own identity and and made important to play again; and thus keeping you interested in a game that otherwise is headed in a direction for which you have little interest.

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 03:28 AM
I only play Arcane casters. In 2006 I started playing arcane casters and over the years have never ever been able to maintain any interest in other classes past 6th level of play. In DDO play thru level 16, Sorcerers can stand shoulder to shoulder with top melee in the party and together effectively fight the foe. This is the way imo it should be and what makes the game fun. Most spells for arcane casters, however, have not kept up with the hitpoint inflation (the only exception being wall of fire). These spells are still based on their pen and paper versions when enemy trash mobs had 300 - 500 hit points. In epic content, trash mobs have 10 times or more hitpoints than this. For example, one of the highest level spells a sorc can cast is "Power Word Kill" and it only effects 300 hit point or less creatures. This is useless against a trash mob epic Ogre with 9000 hit points. Sure its easy to use wall of fire and exploit the AI in many of these quests and even to solo this way, however, I really don't find this approach satisfying.

Ideas to bring Sorcerers up to snuff. Each suggestion can stand on its own. That is, any single suggestion is can fix the sorcerer.


1. The Easy Fix

Idea: Create Epic Spells

How to Impliment: At 20th level (19 for wizard) permit a character to choose one or more epic spells to add to his spell list. These would be epic versions of spells already available. For example, an epic version of Polar Ray may do 200d6 damage. Power word kill may have a 3000 hitpoint limit. Finger of Death might get a +10 to DC. A new feat could be created granting additional epic spells.

Discussion: This would permit characters to specialize in a given spell. Wizards with bonus epics spells could be quite popular.


2. Reduce mob saves:

Idea: Make Death attacks viable again:

How to Impliment: Reduce greatly the saves of many mobs in epic content. In particular, reduce greatly the fortitude save to an extent that a caster with a 37 DC will have an 80% chance of success in a single cast. Eliminate the blanket immunity from death attacks. This will enable better mana management thru instant kills. Of course, wail of the banshee will need to be addressed. My suggestion is (if possible) give every foe in the area of effect over one a bonus to their save that increases linearly with the number of foes. If this is too difficult, then just give every creature in the area of effect a bonus to their save.

Discussion: With the Mod 9 Shavarath and the unrealisticly high fortitude saves of all opponents, the most favorite class of arcane caster, was eliminated over night. This really was a shame. I cannot even begin to image what would have happened if the most popular melee class was rendered impotent. Mobs in epic content could be covered by shaman who cast death ward much like Enter the kobold. This would encourage debuff tactics as well other ideas.


3. The Popular Fix:

Idea: Create a Feat given to all sorcerers at 20th level that increases their damage output by a factor of 10.

How to Impliment: Convert the "Eschew Materials Feat" into this feat. Give it a prereq of 20th level or 9th level spell. Prohibit its use on persistent spells like wall of fire.

Discussion: This move would go a long way in making the sorcerer viable in epic play as an offensive caster. Currently, killing off even the lowest of trash mobs drains mana. In Von 1, for example, killing just 4 or 5 trash mobs before the first shrine will drain the mana, and there are 7 - 40 to face. A creature like a Lurking Thug Ogre should take 2 to 3 shots to kill (this is how the sorcerer compares to melee in the fun play of levels 1 - 16 play).

These are some ideas. If I think of more I will add them. Implementing any one would go a long way to help.

Consumer
05-10-2010, 03:46 AM
WF arcanes can solo epic von 1 and 2 in under 15 minutes, I see no need to give them a larger advantage.

maximus123123
05-10-2010, 05:10 AM
My thoughts exactly.

I'd add, however, that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy: The reason there are so many high HP, high DPS melee builds is because it's the only thing that works high level (except for support cast like bards, healers, and casters who pretty much stick to Otto dance).

That makes the game far less rich and has been the way the game has been progressing (that and the grinding nature which pretty much makes you stick to a single main if you have or aspire to a full time job).

This not only affects class but also race. Unless you have high HP to go along with your high DPS, you need not apply. This makes elves useless in comparison to Dwarves, WF, or even Humans because of their gimped HP's with no real benefit to make up for it.

So sticking to high dexterity elven archers what I'd like to see is a PrE which can crowd control like a Paralyze arrow that has a DC based on Dex (if not paralyze then something like the chains that Sulu casts that can slow mobs severely). In addition they could get a speed boost based on their dex (an attack speed boost and movement speed boost equal to the dex bonus; e.g., +15 from 40 Dex would translate to a +15% movement, shot speed, and melee attack boost).

So, I would like to see paralyzing arrows with a DC based on dex and movement and attack speed increases based on Dex. Otherwise I have no choice but to go Dwarven, WF, or Human/Fighter or Barbarian....Or support cast....This is what it's coming to.

maximus123123
05-10-2010, 05:13 AM
Make the manyshot cooldown timer one minute...not the dang ridiculous 2 minutes.

Before the overpowered crowd comes out, just check out a barb or fighter THF with the epic sword of shadows: 400+ damage every 2 seconds...

maximus123123
05-10-2010, 05:26 AM
Otherwise I have no choice but to go Dwarven, WF, or Human/Fighter or Barbarian....Or support cast....This is what it's coming to.

Actually I do have one other option...to quit and leave the game to the melee crowd.

BurningDownTheHouse
05-10-2010, 05:56 AM
OP, your suggestions will probably will be very popular with the arcane crowd, but only because they will make the casters WAY overpowered.

I realize that it will be fun to go back to the days of "casters rule, melees druel", but this is not the way.
A maxed out frenzied barb needs to beat on stuned epic mob for around 5 seconds.
You want to one-shot them easealy and with no preperation.

I agree that some balance needs to be found, as at the moment a caster can go through his mana bar quite quickly, but that's no reson to go to "the good old days".

And just that you won't think I'm biased, my 3 mains are a sorc, a cleric and a barb.

Sorry but /not singed.

sirgog
05-10-2010, 06:02 AM
Casters are pretty dominant in some epics.

Casters can (and have) soloed Epic VON1, Epic Wiz-King and Epic ADQ2 - all feats that no melee toons have been able to emulate. (Shade, get to work).

Changing the Epic Ward to allow death spells to do something would be, however, an improvement. I recommend having death spells (and other similar effects like Vorpals, Disruptors and so on) do 250 damage to a foe and stun it for 2 seconds, or alternately do 500 damage and remove Epic Ward from that foe. It'd add to tactical flexibility and would make Wail of the Banshee and Implosion into something worth considering on max DC caster builds.


That said - the high HP are really necessary to provide some sort of challenge after the introduction of Greensteel weapons (and now a couple of non-GS ones like Epic Xuum and the Epic SoS) that allow melees to rip through foes as quickly as they do. Otherwise, everything dies so quickly that the dungeon is a cakewalk.

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 06:20 AM
WF arcanes can solo epic von 1 and 2 in under 15 minutes, I see no need to give them a larger advantage.
I guess if the only goal of the community is solo play as fast as possible with a WF arcane this would be pertinent. Actually, this comment indirectly backs up my point. Standing in a campfire with your tower shield is not my idea of a fun time.

Can you solo VON 1 without pots, Wall of Fire, or CO in 15 minutes? Can you solo at all like that? You see this is the issue, the continued lack of variety, we are getting down to a handful of builds and the rest support for them. The end game drives the builds. I don't mind this former point, what I do mind is paying for dull play, and standing in a wall of fire, or bashing on an uber high HP mob like a chicken in a lab until a steady stream of food pellets come out (or red numbers float up into the air) is really not my idea of fun. Neither is sitting around giving these guys support.

die
05-10-2010, 06:29 AM
my idea of a epic dungeon,

1. epic traps

2. mobs lvs 15-19...lots(epic strategy's) required


3.epic boss and maybe a few henchman

i dont believe every monster in a epic dungeon needs too be epic or a raid boss

Daehawk
05-10-2010, 07:25 AM
1. The Easy Fix

Idea: Create Epic Spells

How to Impliment: At 20th level (19 for wizard) permit a character to choose one or more epic spells to add to his spell list. These would be epic versions of spells already available. For example, an epic version of Polar Ray may do 200d6 damage. Power word kill may have a 3000 hitpoint limit. Finger of Death might get a +10 to DC. A new feat could be created granting additional epic spells.

Discussion: This would permit characters to specialize in a given spell. Wizards with bonus epics spells could be quite popular.


I agree that Epic spells should possibly be added. I disagree with the damage of your spell. 200d6? I would only agree with us getting a spell with that much damage on it for Epic spells if it took under consideration the Epic Spell Ruleset where Epic spells are uneffected by Metamagics. Also I think the way they could do what you suggested as in Epic Polar Ray, Epic Finger of Death(Worthless with current epic setting in game), Epic Power Word Kill(Again, worthless in current epic setting), is people could upgrade spells the same way current items are upgraded to epic. Acquire a scroll + seal + shard + item. Could be for learning those spells more of acquire Scroll of Polar Ray + Seal of Polar Ray + Shard of Polar Ray. Combine those in the epic altar and it upgrades Scroll of Polar Ray to Epic Scroll of Polar Ray. But that would dilute the scrolls, seals, and shards dropping as then they are filled with divine and arcane stuff.

Granted what I would rather have instead of the old spells rehashed is some of the ones from the epic level handbook / being able to craft our own. I'll probably type up a post about the way I'd suggest that later.
For Example: Epic level summon spell that we could have is Dragon Knight.

Dragon Knight(Summon Monster X)
Conjuration
Duration: 10 Minutes
Spell Point Cost: 100
Summons an adult red dragon to fight beside you.

The size graphically of the dragon I'd say have is like the younger one from Mired in Kobolds.

Tarnoc
05-10-2010, 08:03 AM
OP, your suggestions will probably will be very popular with the arcane crowd, but only because they will make the casters WAY overpowered.

I realize that it will be fun to go back to the days of "casters rule, melees druel", but this is not the way.
A maxed out frenzied barb needs to beat on stuned epic mob for around 5 seconds.
You want to one-shot them easealy and with no preperation.

I agree that some balance needs to be found, as at the moment a caster can go through his mana bar quite quickly, but that's no reson to go to "the good old days".

And just that you won't think I'm biased, my 3 mains are a sorc, a cleric and a barb.

Sorry but /not singed.

i wish they would make it that way then youde stop playing your mana sponge BARB

P.S. epic made vorpals should work in epic content

Diarden
05-10-2010, 08:31 AM
These are a few of my ideas, however they won't be used...

Epic bosses should stay how they are, except fix Wiz King. He is immune to 4th lvl and lower spells, yet disintegrate does not work on him?

Lower the HP of the mobs. You can keep their damage and saves the same, even keep on their death ward... but institutionalize some crowd control changes. Someone mentioned archers that shoot paralyzing arrows. We have weapons that accomplish certain things like smiters, paralyzers, vorpals, banishers... no reason why they shouldn't have paralyzers too.

The casters in Epic have a limited amount of spells as well. It seems that they don't have roles attached, they are just given some spells and left to do what they wish. However, a good example of crowd control is in Epic Von 4 where the casters will spam dancing ball (much like noobs do in Reaver raid). This is a good example of what should be implemented more widely in Epics. Why do the oracles in Von 1 only cast ice storm? Why don't they cast some crowd control spells, or hold spells?

The Sentinels pack was great because you eliminated a lot of hiding spots for people, putting them out of reach of mobs so they couldn't firewall as effectively. It didn't work entirely, but to a fair amount. Remove more hiding spots for folks so its harder to accomplish, add some more archers with line of sight (like Chains) and players will have to implement more tactics.

I really don't know why the dev team hasn't sat down and really looked this over. The solution is the same mistake Sony made with Everquest... add or upgrade a dungeon, add more hp and damage and call it new. Its a cop-out, and it needs to be fixed. Instead of trying to keep the high levels happy with harder content, lets be a little more tactful in how we do it, maybe spend a little time figuring it out so it is more enjoyable, and a little harder. There is no reason why epic content should be soloable... almost all of it is soloable.

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 08:59 AM
Well its good to see that most everyone seems to think that something needs to be done. In this community, when that happens it usually is for a good reason. However, I just don't think some folks understand the rationale for some of my suggestions. Let me elaborate a bit.

Up until Epic play a trash mob took from one to three casts from a sorcerers best offensive spell to kill (around 500 pt non crit damage). In epic play, with what I call out of control hitpoint inflation, a trash mob now takes 15 to 20 casts to kill (i.e. 9000 hp Lurking Thug Ogre), resulting in the use of 50% of your mana for one kill (that's an epic let down). I realize that this inflation was due to a desire that the quest be a challenge. However, they would have been just as challenging if the hitpoints were say 5 times less but melee toons were forced to swing their weapons 5 times slower. Or imagine that your best melee weapon did 5 times less damage in Epic quests. Next, imagine the outcry in the community if this actually happened. Essentially, though, they have done this to sorcerers. Well, I don't see anyway to realistically reign in melee DPS, and certainly not while it pays the bills.

Therefore, one of my suggestions to restore the balance was to raise the damage of spells to compensate for this inflation. For instance, if instead of 500 non crit damage my polar ray does 5000 damage, then I will kill the trash mob again in one to three casts. The current situation is similar to a government over printing money (in this case melee DPS). The cost of things ends up increasing to compensate (hitpoints of mobs). Meanwhile, the attack ability of the rest of us becomes worthless. And its not just a sorcerers attacks that suffer. Other classes feel the strain like increased healing/enemy killed costs for example.

None of this has anything to do with being able to solo a quest or not. Sure, I can sit in a firewall with my tower shield and watch things burn. But, I just wont pay $15 a month to do that is all I am saying. I dont think i am the only one with the point of view. I rarely if ever see epic quests advertised anymore.

Daehawk
05-10-2010, 09:17 AM
Well its good to see that most everyone seems to think that something needs to be done. In this community, when that happens it usually is for a good reason. However, I just don't think some folks understand the rationale for some of my suggestions. Let me elaborate a bit.

Up until Epic play a trash mob took from one to three casts from a sorcerers best offensive spell to kill (around 500 pt non crit damage). In epic play, with what I call out of control hitpoint inflation, a trash mob now takes 15 to 20 casts to kill (i.e. 9000 hp Lurking Thug Ogre). I realize that this inflation was due to a desire that the quest be a challenge. However, they would have been just as challenging if the hitpoints were say 5 times less but melee toons were forced to swing their weapons 5 times slower. Or imagine that your best melee weapon did 5 times less damage in Epic quests. Next, imagine the outcry in the community if this actually happened. Essentially, though, they have done this to sorcerers. Well, I don't see anyway to realistically reign in melee DPS, and certainly not while it pays the bills.

Therefore, one of my suggestions to restore the balance was to raise the damage of spells to compensate for this inflation. For instance, if instead of 500 non crit damage my polar ray does 5000 damage, then I will kill the trash mob again in one to three casts. The current situation is similar to a government over printing money (in this case melee DPS). The cost of things ends up increasing to compensate (hitpoints of mobs). Meanwhile, the attack ability of the rest of us becomes worthless. And its not just a sorcerers attacks that suffer. Other classes feel the strain like increased healing/enemy killed costs for example.

None of this has anything to do with being able to solo a quest or not. Sure, I can sit in a firewall with my tower shield and watch things burn. But, I just wont pay $15 a month to do that is all I am saying. I dont think i am the only one with the point of view. I rarely if ever see epic quests advertised anymore.

So you want to start hitting things for 5000 non-crit damage is what you're saying? You do know that spells can be used in any place, so the epic spells wouldn't be limited to just Epics. So then we'd have arcanes running around in non-epics casting epic spells criting things for over 15000 damage in one shot. Totally balanced :rolleyes:.

I'm sorry but 200dX epic spells shouldn't be in the game unless they are uneffected my Metamagics and other things that boost spell damage of normal spells as per Epic Spellcasting rules. Or they should be limited to only being castable in Epic Setting, because then why would you bring melee other than the tank. Raid set up: 2 Healers, 1 Intimidate Tank, 9 Arcanes. If all the arcanes had the ability to do 5k damage non-crit per cast around 15k critical damage per cast, then if you multiply that by having 9 of them that's 45k damage - 135k damage that's a lot of damage from 1 onslaught of 1 cast from each of the arcanes.

The_Phenx
05-10-2010, 09:21 AM
My thoughts exactly.

I'd add, however, that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy: The reason there are so many high HP, high DPS melee builds is because it's the only thing that works high level (except for support cast like bards, healers, and casters who pretty much stick to Otto dance).

I dunno my 450hp Monk/Acrobat does just fine, in epics, in high end raids, etc... But he is very well geared. There is a reason its called epic...its supposed to be hard.

DethTrip
05-10-2010, 09:27 AM
Maybe allow the player to upgrade spells to epic but the epic version can only be used in epic play. That may be a quick fix that could make everyone happy. It would give casters something else to strive for and add to the game.

Dendrix
05-10-2010, 09:32 AM
Here is an idea for two fixes to "instant kill" effects vs Epic Ward

1) The Ward is removed if the monster would be killed by the effect. i.e. if the monster fails it's save vs implosion that removed the ward, so next time it can be kileld.

2) A monster failing it's save vs a death effect loses 1/2 it maximum HP.

Shade
05-10-2010, 09:34 AM
Casters can (and have) soloed Epic VON1, Epic Wiz-King and Epic ADQ2 - all feats that no melee toons have been able to emulate. (Shade, get to work).


heh I really don't enjoy soloing on my melee so don't expect that anytime from me. Just did 1 quest mostly for the demonstration of how well barbarians can solo. Prior to sins I solo'd next to nothing except the odd quest on lamania (von2ep, some easier stuff)

Tho in a way, the very first time the wizard king died ever.. I partially did solo him. Mrcow had him to somewhere around 60-80% after some hours of tossing meteor swarm (the original version was much more difficult and immune to every other spell he had)..
And I came in to finish him off for him. He couldn't heal me so I did it solo with silver flame potions.

To do it today and the whole quest wouldn't be much different just tedious since killing super high AC mobs under the effects of -10 to all my stats would require taking off power attack and doing **** dps.

Chai
05-10-2010, 09:35 AM
What the OP is describing has been happening for a long time now ~2 years or so, but its just much more noticeable in epic quests. The reason for this can be traced all the way back to game design.

First things first - The attack sequence is progressive, meaning you get higher to hit numbers as you swing through the sequence. This basically destroyed the d20 system, because it gets to the point where you can either do something or you cant at high levels. Most people in higher level skills are either no fail, or complete fail.

Next - Min maxing + enhancements made it so people are running around with a standing 40+ in their main stat, pre buffs and effects. To hit becomes a non issue for melee, as does DCs for casters.

Q1. So, how do you challenge melee who can hit something on every single swing? (keep in mind the only reason people miss on a roll of a natural 1 is because the game is programmed that way).

Q2. How do you challenge casters whose spells crit into the thousands, and can insta - kill mobs 95% of the time?

A1+2. Raise the hp totals to insane levels, and make the mobs immune to most effects, and highly resistant to the ones they are not immune to.

Now in epic quests there are 3 general approaches I have seen. (there are likely other specific ones)

1. More time. This means going back to strategy. Oh man, what? You mean I have to think now? Gawd...Yes strategy fool, do you use it?

Seriously though - I can bluff pull every single mob in eVon1 so they come one at a time. I bluff with stealth + invis, one mob comes down the hall to the group, kensai or monk stuns it, and we club it down. Rinse > repeat. This accounts for minimal resource consumption, but adds time to quest completions. Your healers if patient enough, will thank you.

2. More resources. Run everything to a kill zone, burn the bajesus out of it with firewalls, then melee it down. It wont be that much more resources unless the strategy doesnt get carried out as planned due to not knowing how to kite, or where to stand when the mobs burn. Caster now has enough aggro that the melee can swat with impunity if done correctly.

3. More metagaming. Find the one or two things that work well and floss them hard for easy completions. This sometimes means one person doing most of the heavy lifting. Casters can solo a few epic quests. I have literally seen buy in groups where people buy the caster mana potions and the caster does 95% of the work. This might sound pathetic, but it works, gets fast completions, which means less grind. How could this be more pathetic than schlub trash mobs with 40 SR, immune to 80% of spell effects, who will shrug off most other effects in less than 20 seconds?

Diarden
05-10-2010, 09:37 AM
I do not agree with having "Epic" spells. It would throw the entire game off a bit. Having them only used in epics can also throw it off a bit. Epic Polar doing 5k damage? Go to Chains and kill the fire efretti in 1 hit on a double damage cold crit? would be around 12-15k damage to a mob that takes more cold damage. You talk about highly inflated hp, thats highly inflated damage.

What needs to be done is more strategy from the mobs perspective. Sentinels was a good example of what should be done in epics, just lower the hp of the mobs a bit more and you have the key. Water elementals that make it impossible to cast Firewall. Have shamans and the like use more sleet storm, making firewall an unviable option. Use more crowd control like Von 4 epic. Put archers in area's that only ranged can kill. There are many different things that Turbine can do besides increasing the damage of our spells.

And once again, its not always about damage in Epics. Currently, the caster is still the most powerful class in an epic dungeon. Ever try Symbol of Persuasion? Nothing is more powerful than having 5+ epic mobs charmed and at your disposal.

grodon9999
05-10-2010, 09:47 AM
There is a reason its called epic...its supposed to be hard.

it's not hard, it's grindy. it's a lot of things, it just sure as heck ain't D&D.

grodon9999
05-10-2010, 09:50 AM
What needs to be done is more strategy from the mobs perspective. Sentinels was a good example of what should be done in epics, just lower the hp of the mobs a bit more and you have the key. Water elementals that make it impossible to cast Firewall. Have shamans and the like use more sleet storm, making firewall an unviable option. Use more crowd control like Von 4 epic. Put archers in area's that only ranged can kill. There are many different things that Turbine can do besides increasing the damage of our spells.


yes, this is good. Maybe have mobs work like how a party does, no 9000 hitpoints but they get spam-healed by clerics so you have to take them out first, etc . . . Anything that adds real tactic-depth to the mobs and requires real tactical coordination on our parts is what turbine should be pursuing. 9000 HP idiots is just downright dumb.

Chai
05-10-2010, 09:56 AM
it's not hard, it's grindy. it's a lot of things, it just sure as heck ain't D&D.

Right, but the only way to fix it so it is D&D would be to backpedal on game design all the way back to square one, which for obvious reasons, isnt going to happen.

The issue I have personally isnt that epic content is just higher hp / ac mobs that do more damage, but that this seems to be the only direction DDO can go to challenge players with good high end builds. If it gets too easy, or they want to put another harder tier of content into the game, just raise the AC, HP, and immunities of all mobs in the quest.

Fetchi
05-10-2010, 09:59 AM
Lets get back on track here. I believe the OP was attempting to make suggestions on how to improve EPIC and END GAME play in ways that don't involve just inflated mob HPs. A good suggestion, and one that many players have compained about. Essentially, the lack of any strategy in the END GAME.

This is a two part problem.

1. PCs are too powerful.

2. AI is only so "smart".

This two part problem is always going to prevelant in a video game, and its always easy to complain about it or get frustrated with it. But here is the challenge: How do you design a dungeon that is going to challenge:

1. A frenzied bezerker with 800 hps - 60 STR - Min 2 Greataxe - Red Dragon Scale Armor - Ect.

2. A cleric with Maximized Empower Extended Quickened Blade Barriers - Torc - Concordant Opposition providing infinite mana pool and therefore infinite hit points

3. A Warforged Sorc that can cast Maximized Empowered Extended Quickened firewalls + reconstruction + finger of death + polar ray + wail - oh and he has a Torc and a Concordant Opposition item on too so he has infinate mana, heck he's even weilding a Lightning Strike greataxe just for kicks

4. A FVS with - ah you get the point

So here is the real question, how would YOU design a dungeon to make it challenging and interesting for a party of adventurers with this kind of gear and experience. Using the limited technology of your already outdated software and A.I.?


Answer that question, then you'll really be giving suggestions. Although I would agree that just stacking on more hps and immunities is not the answer for fun gameplay.

Just my 2 cp.

grodon9999
05-10-2010, 10:01 AM
Right, but the only way to fix it so it is D&D would be to backpedal on game design all the way back to square one, which for obvious reasons, isnt going to happen.

The issue I have personally isnt that epic content is just higher hp / ac mobs that do more damage, but that this seems to be the only direction DDO can go to challenge players with good high end builds. If it gets too easy, or they want to put another harder tier of content into the game, just raise the AC, HP, and immunities of all mobs in the quest.




So here is the real question, how would YOU design a dungeon to make it challenging and interesting for a party of adventurers with this kind of gear and experience. Using the limited technology of your already outdated software and A.I.?



You are both unfortunately right. Here to hoping a "DDO2" sometime in the future will allow the game to stay interesting. I guess it all really boils down to really dumb AI need all the help they can get.

grodon9999
05-10-2010, 10:11 AM
What I'd like to see is maybe drop better trash-loot, I don't see that being a game-breaker at all. If it's not and epic seal/shard/scroll it's pure garbage, at least what I've seen in VON and Sentinels. The trash and random loot drops should at least be as high as a 20th level quest on elite.

Diarden
05-10-2010, 10:26 AM
Lets get back on track here. I believe the OP was attempting to make suggestions on how to improve EPIC and END GAME play in ways that don't involve just inflated mob HPs. A good suggestion, and one that many players have compained about. Essentially, the lack of any strategy in the END GAME.

This is a two part problem.

1. PCs are too powerful.

2. AI is only so "smart".

This two part problem is always going to prevelant in a video game, and its always easy to complain about it or get frustrated with it. But here is the challenge: How do you design a dungeon that is going to challenge:

1. A frenzied bezerker with 800 hps - 60 STR - Min 2 Greataxe - Red Dragon Scale Armor - Ect.

2. A cleric with Maximized Empower Extended Quickened Blade Barriers - Torc - Concordant Opposition providing infinite mana pool and therefore infinite hit points

3. A Warforged Sorc that can cast Maximized Empowered Extended Quickened firewalls + reconstruction + finger of death + polar ray + wail - oh and he has a Torc and a Concordant Opposition item on too so he has infinate mana, heck he's even weilding a Lightning Strike greataxe just for kicks

4. A FVS with - ah you get the point

So here is the real question, how would YOU design a dungeon to make it challenging and interesting for a party of adventurers with this kind of gear and experience. Using the limited technology of your already outdated software and A.I.?


Answer that question, then you'll really be giving suggestions. Although I would agree that just stacking on more hps and immunities is not the answer for fun gameplay.

Just my 2 cp.

Lets run off this for a minute. Since Von 1 is the widely done epic dungeon, and it seems for most of the community its the only epic dungeon they have done, lets work on improving this.

First off, lets increase the CR of the entrance mobs up from 11. There's no reason we should be able to farm Von scrolls from the front mobs. Yes, its great that I have 2+ of every Von scroll in my bags, but should I really be allowed to do this?

Second, lets make it impossible to invis and run past stuff. For instance, I can throw invis on, run all the way to the kobold, bluff him, open the door, invis and run to the key, pick up the key, run to Ready Room 1, open the door and kill the trolls. I just ran past 34 mobs.

For instance. Lets lower the hp of all the mobs by 5,000. That would take them down around 3/4 of what they used to have. Now, the first four minotaurs, lets put a mino shaman. That mino shaman, lets give him spells like...

Hold Person, Mass
Cometfall
Greater Command
Symbol of Stunning
Heal, Mass
Heal
Bladebarrier
Energy Drain
Searing Light
Break Enchantment

This will give him a bit more damage options. They should also use the spells in succession, not when they feel a whim. (Current Shamans will cast damage spells on a 5-10 second delay, and at 40% life will only spam Heal on themselves, making them quite comatose.

Third. Why does a boss Troll not have any shamans or casters with him? Its great that I can stand on top of a building and firewall them down without taking damage, but is that fair? Lets put a couple casters there with spells such as...

Firewall
Sleet Storm
Ottos Irresistable Dancing
Dancing Ball
Acid Fog
Energy Drain
Symbol of Persuasion
Displacement
Greater Dispell

The list could go on. These are spells we have access to, and so should they. Should the casters have the ability to throw down a sleet storm, it makes it impossible to cast a firewall for a given time (unless the area is dispelled) thus putting a little more strategy. Also, I can cast on my sorc pretty quickly, so they should as well.

As far as the Arena fights go. It is quite easy to get into the mephit room and FW from above. Same strategy as before. There are casters in each bunch, so lets let them do the things they should be doing.

These doors should lock however when those mobs are not active. You shouldn't be able to access the mephit room in the first wave, or in the fourth wave when the final boss comes out. It makes things a little too easy.

That enough would improve the dungeon by a huge margin.

Angelus_dead
05-10-2010, 10:40 AM
Casters can (and have) soloed Epic VON1, Epic Wiz-King and Epic ADQ2 - all feats that no melee toons have been able to emulate. (Shade, get to work).
But of course that brings up the longstanding design flaw: potions of spellpoints. Although it is difficult and requires precise correctness to solo one of those dungeons without using mana potions, it is far easier for a Sorcerer to kill a bunch of epic mobs until his spellpoints run out.

The willingness to drink a few mana pots massively lowers the difficulty bar to solo those things, and leaves even an average Sorc able to solo most of the sections of those quests.

This goes to show how unlimited mana pots were a mistake, as it is impossible to design encounters that are challenging both for characters with and without them. An analogous mistake for melee characters might be a stackable potion which grants +3000 temporary hitpoints.

AdahnX
05-10-2010, 10:41 AM
Someone suggested that enemy mobs function like a PC party, with Clerics healing, other casters buffing, maybe melees helping each other flank or otherwise positioning themselves strategically. This is one of the best ideas I've heard since coming to DDO and it is, imo, the main thing that DDO lacks in comparison to tabletop and other D&D based video games. That's why in PnP games the monsters don't have to have insanely inflated AC, HP, and Immunities in epic levels. Even the Tarasque's HP was only in the hundreds. Most Abominations are barely into the Thousands and those are what could possibly be considered equivalent to raid bosses. In any event they are a far cry from being "trash mobs".

Also, don't forget that casters have to grind through at least 7 levels of utter frustration to get to where they are. To me, casters have always been a case of put in a lot of effort in the beginning to get a big payoff at the end. Melees never really go through a "gimp period". They remain pretty stable through their entire adventuring career, and so I don't think they need an "uber" period at the end to balance things out.

But I guess that's how things work in a game where gear is god, which is the case with almost all MMOs. Melees are always getting new weapons to play with while Casters hit a wall with how many spells they can cast and how strong those spells are. Yeah, sure. Int+ is nice, as is increased spell damage, or spell crit, but it doesn't compete with weapon based classes.

Anyway, yeah, I'm new. I probably have no clue what I'm talking about. But just figured I'd share that.

Angelus_dead
05-10-2010, 10:46 AM
These are some ideas. If I think of more I will add them. Implementing any one would go a long way to help.

As several people have pointed out, Sorcerers are already good enough in Epic quests, and they don't really suffer more than other kinds of characters. So instead I'll give a suggestion to fix it from the other direction; instead of buffing the sorc, nerf the mobs.

Create new difficulty settings Epic Normal and Epic Elite, where the existing mode becomes Epic Hard. Naturally Epic Normal will have a lower drop rate of named items, including less than one token per run. But it has toned-down monsters and the usual benefits of Normal mode.

Emili
05-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Lets run off this for a minute. Since Von 1 is the widely done epic dungeon, and it seems for most of the community its the only epic dungeon they have done, lets work on improving this.

First off, lets increase the CR of the entrance mobs up from 11. There's no reason we should be able to farm Von scrolls from the front mobs. Yes, its great that I have 2+ of every Von scroll in my bags, but should I really be allowed to do this?

Second, lets make it impossible to invis and run past stuff. For instance, I can throw invis on, run all the way to the kobold, bluff him, open the door, invis and run to the key, pick up the key, run to Ready Room 1, open the door and kill the trolls. I just ran past 34 mobs.

For instance. Lets lower the hp of all the mobs by 5,000. That would take them down around 3/4 of what they used to have. Now, the first four minotaurs, lets put a mino shaman. That mino shaman, lets give him spells like...

Hold Person, Mass
Cometfall
Greater Command
Symbol of Stunning
Heal, Mass
Heal
Bladebarrier
Energy Drain
Searing Light
Break Enchantment

This will give him a bit more damage options. They should also use the spells in succession, not when they feel a whim. (Current Shamans will cast damage spells on a 5-10 second delay, and at 40% life will only spam Heal on themselves, making them quite comatose.

Third. Why does a boss Troll not have any shamans or casters with him? Its great that I can stand on top of a building and firewall them down without taking damage, but is that fair? Lets put a couple casters there with spells such as...

Firewall
Sleet Storm
Ottos Irresistable Dancing
Dancing Ball
Acid Fog
Energy Drain
Symbol of Persuasion
Displacement
Greater Dispell

The list could go on. These are spells we have access to, and so should they. Should the casters have the ability to throw down a sleet storm, it makes it impossible to cast a firewall for a given time (unless the area is dispelled) thus putting a little more strategy. Also, I can cast on my sorc pretty quickly, so they should as well.

As far as the Arena fights go. It is quite easy to get into the mephit room and FW from above. Same strategy as before. There are casters in each bunch, so lets let them do the things they should be doing.

These doors should lock however when those mobs are not active. You shouldn't be able to access the mephit room in the first wave, or in the fourth wave when the final boss comes out. It makes things a little too easy.

That enough would improve the dungeon by a huge margin.

Years ago I suggested these likewise ideas for normal dungeon play... Epic should be in all rights a little harder level of play ... yet the issue you all speak about permeates throughout normal play as well... do you really suppose a quest like GOP normal-elite (at level) seems any different then Epic Von 1 (at lvl 20)? Really... players scope it out such and run it in certain constaints and ways... it becomes a text book reading.

The OP seems all hyped up because his nuker is not one shotting things and wails of banshee useless ... yet currently we can take a caster into Von 1 and solo it with a ton less resource needed then you'd ever do so via a melee (yet these melee to him are the over-powered ones?)

He's arguing one thing but well for the wrong reasons... Fetchi understands the issue and I see you understand the issue. The bloody mob are plain eejits ... hell even the bosses are. How do you make a mob seem a little more brighter? Make them more spontaneous.

Angelus_dead
05-10-2010, 11:01 AM
This is one of the best ideas I've heard since coming to DDO and it is, imo, the main thing that DDO lacks in comparison to tabletop and other D&D based video games. That's why in PnP games the monsters don't have to have insanely inflated AC, HP, and Immunities in epic levels. Even the Tarasque's HP was only in the hundreds
The real reason the D&D game has monsters with only a few hundred hitpoints is because it is conducted on paper, with the math and table lookups done by hand. That means a single round of combat can take 10-20 minutes, considering the large number of magic items, spells, and feats that high-level PCs bring. Because a round lasts so long (and gets longer as you get higher level), the monster must be designed so that the players can end the battle after just four or five rounds.

Naturally that problem does not happen in a computer-moderated realtime game, where five rounds takes under 20 seconds regardless of the complexity of the players' actions. The reason DDO's epic trash mobs have thousands of hitpoints is so they'll last long enough so that players will have time to make interesting choices during the fight.

But due to the ongoing effect of ancient design mistakes, there are negative consequences to scaling up monster hitpoints like that. Some classes are on a more stringent resource-use model than others, so they must pay a lot more to get through the added enemy hp. Doubling the hp of the enemies does double the time a Fighter or Monk needs to kill it, and also tends to double the amount of healing he needs afterwards... but since post-fight healing comes from stacks of scrolls, all it really comes down to is increased time. But when a Sorcerer or Wizard faces mobs with double hitpoints that means he must spend twice the spellpoints to zap them, so not only does it take twice as long, but he'll run out and need to rest in half the time.

If DDO had a more consistent resource model then that problem could have been more easily avoided. Instead, it's really hard for the devs to fix things like that.


Also, don't forget that casters have to grind through at least 7 levels of utter frustration to get to where they are. To me, casters have always been a case of put in a lot of effort in the beginning to get a big payoff at the end.
That kind of game system is a mistake, as has been well documented in the game design literature (including the background materials for the D&D 3.5 edition). It is hardly ever justifiable for characters in a long-lasting persistent game to start out as weaker and transition to stronger. To do that would mean creating classes that are underpowered at low level, overpowered at high level, or both- and none of that is a good thing.

Siskel
05-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Lower Epic Mobs HPs and give them epic abilities. Buffing our characters to new heights is only going to cause a massive power difference between all characters at level 20. It will become a game of you can't join the group unless you have x build and y items. Give epic mobs epic abilites, and make us come up with a strategy to deal with them.

Aspenor
05-10-2010, 11:28 AM
I covered my gripes with my thread on this exact topic, but I'll rehash a few of the more important ones:

- Blanket Immunities aren't fun. If they were partial immunities (i.e. immune 50% of the time, or something) it would be better.
- Making Armor Class meaningless invalidates a large number of build and character types, and should be avoided. The fact that even highly geared AC characters must rely on outside buffs and short-term boosts to get an even remotely meaningful armor class is bad.

The second point is not to say that these types of characters should only be missed on a 1. Turbine should do their homework and figure out what AC a character built for AC can reasonably attain without outside buffs and boosts and assign attack bonuses accordingly. This should not take very long.

Healsavant
05-10-2010, 11:30 AM
I remember the days when a faster could just go solo anything, perhaps you are just used to or want this now, simple fact is these epic quests cannot be done without a caster, hence you arent being left out as so many melee were, but as OP states arcanes can still solo almost all the epics out there now. As for classes and races I run 18ra 1ro 1fi elf and have no troubles at all in these quests be it ranged or melee. Maybe its the people I run with bit I would never say casters are underpowered, I know the spell pen required is fairly high like in DQ so don't dare go with a Gimp caster or its a fast wipe. I always want more my archer can do, but think archery is fine, melee is fine, and same with the casters, elves,warforged, dwarves.......we always want more, its human nature......../not signed

Belwaar
05-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Years ago I suggested these likewise ideas for normal dungeon play... Epic should be in all rights a little harder level of play ... yet the issue you all speak about permeates throughout normal play as well... do you really suppose a quest like GOP normal-elite (at level) seems any different then Epic Von 1 (at lvl 20)? Really... players scope it out such and run it in certain constaints and ways... it becomes a text book reading.

The OP seems all hyped up because his nuker is not one shotting things and wails of banshee useless ... yet currently we can take a caster into Von 1 and solo it with a ton less resource needed then you'd ever do so via a melee (yet these melee to him are the over-powered ones?)

He's arguing one thing but well for the wrong reasons... Fetchi understands the issue and I see you understand the issue. The bloody mob are plain eejits ... hell even the bosses are. How do you make a mob seem a little more brighter? Make them more spontaneous.



Great points Emili

Belwaar
05-10-2010, 11:45 AM
Create new difficulty settings Epic Normal and Epic Elite, where the existing mode becomes Epic Hard. Naturally Epic Normal will have a lower drop rate of named items, including less than one token per run. But it has toned-down monsters and the usual benefits of Normal mode.

I'm intrigued by this, but at one point are there too many difficulty levels? 6 versions of each quest? :eek:

Somehow you'll end up with Casual, Normal, Elite, Epic-Normal, Epic-Hard, Epic-Elite...will you then have Epic-Epic? You know at some point people will be *****ing about the difficulty of Epic-Normal, so then they'll make Epic-Normal-Casual, etc.

Henrieta
05-10-2010, 12:04 PM
What about some of the previously made unpowered epic items giving:

"Epic Arcane Lore"
Gives an X (3-9)% chance for a spell to do xxx% (100%+) more damage.

Similar to the Eardweller, but a bit stronger and only on a crit.

Similarly, start giving us Epic feats like Epic Fire lore, etc.

AdahnX
05-10-2010, 12:46 PM
Angelus, you bring up some good points that I hadn't taken into consideration about the inherent differences between a tabletop game and a MMO. There shouldn't be cases of weaker in the beginning to be stronger at the end in an ideal game balance. Nonetheless, casters do, in fact, go through a period of being significantly weaker than everyone else, due to lower HP and survivability and not enough spell points/spells available to compensate and carry them through a quest. And they do hit a wall when they reach 9th level spells.

Perhaps a crafted item that increases spell damage just enough to compete with the GS weapons and ESoS? Or allows you to specialize in a specific spell to achieve that end?

Also, on the subject of appropriate challenges, this is a little formula I came up with for "trash mobs" while I was DMing for a group of power gamers, and I got a little lazy when the encounters I had put so much work and detail into got reduced to stats. One of them even interrupted my description to say "Enough with the dramatics, what do I need to hit it and how much damage do I need to do to kill it?" But I guess when you're a DM you have to give the players what they want.

Anyway, AC = Fighter's (or other highest party member) Attack Bonus +5. AB = Rogue or Ranger's AC -5 (Dexers usually had higher AC than Armored characters). HP = Enough to stand up to the party's average damage for about 2-3 rounds. Damage = enough to kill the Saves, SR, DCs, about the same basic formula of that they should fail on a roll of less than 5. Now this is standing, btw. If they take the time to buff themselves out then yeah, it would be a cakewalk. I think being prepared should be rewarded with having an easier time. But of course they never prepared. They just filled all their slots with direct damage and ohk spells.

Eventually I got even more lazy and just started saying that if they rolled a 4 they failed, and not even tallying HP, just having the monsters drop dead after 3 rounds of combat, but, yeah, that's a little much. Math isn't fun for me.

Diarden
05-10-2010, 01:00 PM
I remember the days when a faster could just go solo anything, perhaps you are just used to or want this now, simple fact is these epic quests cannot be done without a caster, hence you arent being left out as so many melee were, but as OP states arcanes can still solo almost all the epics out there now. As for classes and races I run 18ra 1ro 1fi elf and have no troubles at all in these quests be it ranged or melee. Maybe its the people I run with bit I would never say casters are underpowered, I know the spell pen required is fairly high like in DQ so don't dare go with a Gimp caster or its a fast wipe. I always want more my archer can do, but think archery is fine, melee is fine, and same with the casters, elves,warforged, dwarves.......we always want more, its human nature......../not signed

I solo Von 4 epic daily on my FvS, and Von 2 epic on my Barb. I can solo Tide, Wiz King and Bargain Bazaar on my FvS as well. Yes, casters can solo epics as well, but saying epic quests can only be done with a caster is wrong. Learn a bit more utility with each class in the game and you will see that casters are nice to have, but not vital to the completion of a dungeon.

spyderwolf
05-10-2010, 01:03 PM
Sure, I can sit in a firewall with my tower shield and watch things burn. But, I just wont pay $15 a month to do that is all I am saying.
I rarely if ever see epic quests advertised anymore.

you obviously dont run epics often. you dont SIT in a firewall shieldblocking on epic or you will die. they hit for 70-100. you have to move and kite and waves of exhaustion


my human sorc solos von 1 and on 2 everyday without pots or a CO item.


i dont know what server your on. but there are pug epics up in lfms everyday on sarlona.

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 03:08 PM
The way I solo epic is, putting invisibility on and running past anything I dont need to fight. Its, jumping to high spots and fire walling hordes to save on mana. Its pulling red named gate keepers individually to kill then stealthin'n by everything else. It was kinda fun to do maybe once. But standing on a block watching fire or in the wall to get SP back with CO is not really playing, I suppose you could call these AI exploits tactics.

However, lets steer the topic back to remedies not ****ing contests or gripes. We are talking about coming up with a fun way to play at high level.

If you don't modify sorcerers so they can reasonably offensively attack mobs, then trash mob hit points need to be reduced to 1 or 2 K (otherwise mana usage here will be pointless), and death spells made viable again.


Other remedies:
1. Have the enemy casters buff against death and other spells instead of blanket immunities like "Enter Kobold".

2. Have the casters spam will based spells that incapacitate. Have them only use one spell so they always use it (i.e. Greater Command, Dancing Orb). Have them shy from WF immune attacks. Toss Dominate on melee.

3. Make the caster tougher to get at. Place the enemy caster behind obstructions that take massive damage to break, thus encouraging a role for ranged attack. Place the enemy caster over a chasm or atop an unreachable perch.

4. Have the enemy caster attack from range with enlarge.

5. Have the caster use really effective combo's like Polar Ray (300 HP damage say) immediately followed by Power word stun on party casters. Throw Greater dispel then webs. Dancing Orb then DBF.

6. Have hidden scouts ahead of the mob who will run back or sound alarms so buffing can begin before party is in contact.

7. Toss mass heals for a protected spot.

8. Set up road blocks that require massive damage to take down and enable defense by enemy range and casters like Machine gun hard points.

grodon9999
05-10-2010, 03:16 PM
Lower HP and give them all heavy fort. They can be immune to EVERYTHING but can be critted when a 9th level PC can avoid it? HPs can be lowered to a level where you can still nuke.

The above will never happen, just throwing out an ideal equally as absurd as the current state of things.

Diarden
05-10-2010, 03:17 PM
Once again, not to insult, but I think until you start using more strategy in your diet, you should not come up with "innovative" ways to fix the problem.

For instance. Have you done Chains of Flame on Epic? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Von 3? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Von 5? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Tide Turns? If you have, please explain your strategy?

You are once again looking at Von 1 and Epic Wiz King as your basis to what epic dungeons have to offer, and arent looking at the big picture. Turbine has done well in some epics, and failed miserably in others... but to throw down the entire system because the few epics you do run are boring is wrong.

Look at what some of the other people have offered you. Increasing caster damage is NOT the solution.

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 05:33 PM
Once again, not to insult, but I think until you start using more strategy in your diet, you should not come up with "innovative" ways to fix the problem.

For instance. Have you done Chains of Flame on Epic? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Von 3? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Von 5? If you have, please explain your strategy?

Have you done Epic Tide Turns? If you have, please explain your strategy?

You are once again looking at Von 1 and Epic Wiz King as your basis to what epic dungeons have to offer, and arent looking at the big picture. Turbine has done well in some epics, and failed miserably in others... but to throw down the entire system because the few epics you do run are boring is wrong.

Look at what some of the other people have offered you. Increasing caster damage is NOT the solution.

I am not claiming the epic quests are un-doable. I am also not claiming that it is not a good idea to use strategy while epic questing. I know many of you want to turn this thread into a gripe against epic vs a how easy it is to run those quests if you are experienced. I wish you would not because none of this really has anything to do with my point.

Let me see if I can make you understand. First off, I bow to your experience in epics and humbly claim my knowledge pales compared to yours. Now that that is done with, please if you would, inform me in your expert opinion generally what a well equipped experienced sorcerer should do in "Epic Chains of Flame." a great example. I am not asking for a lot just one general sentence for,

1. The start of quest
2. One between each shrine
3. One at end.

Perhaps my foolish inexperienced mind is missing something and this will help.

Aspenor
05-10-2010, 06:06 PM
I wouldn't call what's usually done in epics is "strategy."

What does a good player do in pretty much any epic quest currently in the game? I think this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243587) pretty much sums it up.

The fact that not *all" epic quests call for Wall of Fire exclusively is pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, and I think a lot of people are getting bogged down in Elvis's statements rather than seeing his point.

Allow me to sum up what a good caster does in epics:
- Otto's Irresistable Dance
- Mass Hold Monster
- Wall of Fire
- Halt Undead (very situationally, one quest)
- Waves of Exhaustion (situationally)
- Symbol of Persuasion (supposedly, I haven't had good luck with charms, never seen it used)
- maybe a couple of other spells but that about sums it up

tinyelvis
05-10-2010, 06:50 PM
I wouldn't call what's usually done in epics is "strategy."

What does a good player do in pretty much any epic quest currently in the game? I think this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243587) pretty much sums it up.

The fact that not *all" epic quests call for Wall of Fire exclusively is pretty irrelevant to the topic at hand, and I think a lot of people are getting bogged down in Elvis's statements rather than seeing his point.

Allow me to sum up what a good caster does in epics:
- Otto's Irresistable Dance
- Mass Hold Monster
- Wall of Fire
- Halt Undead (very situationally, one quest)
- Waves of Exhaustion (situationally)
- Symbol of Persuasion (supposedly, I haven't had good luck with charms, never seen it used)
- maybe a couple of other spells but that about sums it up

Exactly, thanks Aspenor ( I would also add web and dancing ball...there are probably other too). Using these spells you can be very helpful to the party. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, my main caster is also spec'd for enchantment for this very reason.

However, A trend that has been going on for a while (don't know that it is anyones fault, just a function probably of game mechanics) where hitpoints of mobs are increasing. However, in epic it has culminated finally in the loss of ability of the sorcerer to be an offensive caster (firewall is of course the lame exception in some cases). Sure, you can still put out the highest DPS and still kill things, however, after that battle, the next 95% of the quest until a shrine you are out of mana.

The main difference in Epic is that instead of having some way to 1- 3 casts to kill some trash as always before, you now need 15 - 20 casts (give or take). So your choice is to play ball, conserve mana, and be support for melee, drink pots, or burn out in a couple blazes of glory. I don't recall any classes offensive ability being so heavily impacted by higher level content.

Since for me I pay to drive the car in the race, I don't want to be assigned to the pit crew, or medic tent (no offense to those who do). That is why I was hoping to look for solutions.

Pyromaniac
05-11-2010, 05:19 AM
I look forward to Turbine implementing these changes, but doubt they will. I'm mostly playing melee, and will be in the future. Personally I'd rather be playing my caster, but those who decide on development don't like casters - they develop for and play melee only.

So tired of fighting the man, melee it is. Hopefully Atari's online DDO game comes soon and gives casters the respect they deserve.

FluffyCalico
05-11-2010, 05:45 AM
this is what happened.
In DnD real DnD casters become able to do almost anything near the cap and are weak at start. The reason they are not like this in DDO is back when the cap was I think 12 casters started becoming real powerful like they should. All the melee who were used to WOW where melee is king cried foul and they gave in to them and broke everything in favor or melee and against casters. Shroud was a huge increase on this issue and they have never looked back. The DEVs sold out to the wow crowd making it, melee, healers for melee, and things that buff melee and cast spells occasionally.

tinyelvis
05-11-2010, 09:54 AM
this is what happened.
In DnD real DnD casters become able to do almost anything near the cap and are weak at start. The reason they are not like this in DDO is back when the cap was I think 12 casters started becoming real powerful like they should. All the melee who were used to WOW where melee is king cried foul and they gave in to them and broke everything in favor or melee and against casters. Shroud was a huge increase on this issue and they have never looked back. The DEVs sold out to the wow crowd making it, melee, healers for melee, and things that buff melee and cast spells occasionally.

I think this is a bit too simplistic but certainly if the majority of your paying customers are complaining about something can you really blame them for listening? I think what really happens with casters compared to melee is that high skill can only take you so far when playing a melee toon. No matter how skillful you are at running your character, the returns diminish and top out. With a caster, due to game mechanics, the style of play difference, and ability to better fine tune attacks against a foe, an intelligent human can and will find more ways to better combat a non creative AI foe.

Take a look at this video of a very skilled melee against a high end red named epic foe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt9xH3xMly0

In this fight, against Angog, he makes it look easy (most skilled players do). Due to the current game dynamics, his skills can only take him so far. To be completely successful here, he only needs monitor his state of buff, head toward the enemy, and swing optimally with a well chosen weapon to produce the results (not necessarily an easy to skill to learn). Among other things, he is not required to monitor Angogs response, (notice his exaggerated telegraphs of an impending blow) and block them. There is no incentive to even move behind the foe or dodge attacks (what is a +2 attack bonus to this fellow). Someone else monitors his health. So, rightly, he does not waste efforts doing any of this and is completely successful.

Compare this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKJry5Pk3Y

Again it looks easy. There are some subtle differences between the two styles. First, the typical sorcerer is forced to put an effort into learning to block or avoid attacks. In addition to the two weapons used in a fight and his buffs (similar to figher), he can select from a list of spells. There is also potentially more complexity to targeting his foe, often more steps to correctly making the attack. Finally, he can vary his attack pattern to account for behavior of his foe. This is not all that is going on but many of the major points.

In essence, due to game dynamics, there are what I might call more degrees of freedom involved in attacking with a sorcerer than a melee toon currently in the game (though with the current game engine there are many melee degrees of freedom currently not used, like blocking or dodging attacks). That is, there are more variables, more things to be potentially skillful at performing. When faced with enemy AI that are good at blocking one variable, the flexibility exists so that others can be enhanced to defeat the foe. Where as for a melee, there are fewer things that can be changed. For this reason, the sorcerer style in the hands of skilled opponent will often lead to a more deadly combination against the AI than the melee, since it can be pushed farther, and eventually you hear the cry of sorcerers are OP.

Now, more degrees of freedom is a headache for game designers. It makes their job of producing a challenging quest much more difficult. It takes less time for them to just eliminate degrees of freedom, and time is literally money for them. I think this is why the game is at its current high end state.

Cyr
05-11-2010, 10:07 AM
Of all the things wrong with epic the viability of arcanes is not on the list.

Arcanes are incredibly useful in epic content. Adding some preposterous dps increase to them will just make the best party make up in epic to be 6 wf arcanes or 12 wf arcanes.

Diarden
05-11-2010, 10:19 AM
Exactly, thanks Aspenor ( I would also add web and dancing ball...there are probably other too). Using these spells you can be very helpful to the party. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, my main caster is also spec'd for enchantment for this very reason.

However, A trend that has been going on for a while (don't know that it is anyones fault, just a function probably of game mechanics) where hitpoints of mobs are increasing. However, in epic it has culminated finally in the loss of ability of the sorcerer to be an offensive caster (firewall is of course the lame exception in some cases). Sure, you can still put out the highest DPS and still kill things, however, after that battle, the next 95% of the quest until a shrine you are out of mana.

The main difference in Epic is that instead of having some way to 1- 3 casts to kill some trash as always before, you now need 15 - 20 casts (give or take). So your choice is to play ball, conserve mana, and be support for melee, drink pots, or burn out in a couple blazes of glory. I don't recall any classes offensive ability being so heavily impacted by higher level content.

Since for me I pay to drive the car in the race, I don't want to be assigned to the pit crew, or medic tent (no offense to those who do). That is why I was hoping to look for solutions.

Every class in this game is support for another class in some shape. We all need to understand that its great that we can solo certain epics and most dungeons, but the game was designed with teamplay in mind. To circumvent their intentions is our own folly, and if someone doesnt like it, too bad. It is not the developers prerogative to create Epic Solo content.

That being said, yes there is a limited amount of damage dealing spells a sorc/wiz can cast in an epic environment. Unfortunately, you are doing more support, or should be rather, than pure dps output. The difference between DDO and other MMO's is the lack of SP regeneration. In WoW and other cookie cutter games, you can cast all day long. Players need to learn how to conserve spell points and utilize their class to the best of its ability.

Firewall is still the best AoE damage in Epic content, don't get me wrong. Waves of Exhaustion + Firewall can take care of most non undead, and circle kiting through firewalls takes care of the rest. There are safe points to hide at and kill things from above with firewall in certain epic dungeons, and the list goes on. A Non fire spec wiz/sorc does not have to respec to fire to be effective in epics, however.

Someone mentioned attempting Symbol of Persuasion to no avail in epics. Let me remind you the high saves that mobs have within these epic dungeons. I have been able to charm 1 mob out of every 10 with a DC of 26, 2 out of every mob at 29, and 9 out of every 10 mobs with a DC of 35. Getting a high DC can be rough, but not impossible. Having charmed mobs works in almost every situation, including...

Von 2 Giant -> Charm the mephits and gargoyles, and they kill the Giant for you in a couple minutes. One cast of 50sp and the Giant is dead. Shouldn't dent your SP at all.

Von 1 -> Anywhere really. Should you not have the ability to cast FW effectively and your DC is high enough, charming mobs in the arena or before will help you beat each wave. Dungeon can be almost solo cleared with this.

Von 3 Boss -> Charming the Earth Elementals at Marut and letting them box him in and get agro. They do great damage.

Tide Turns -> Whole dungeon can be charmed, except the rats. Great to charm one room, then pull subsequent rooms back and let your charmed guards get agro.

Bargain Bazaar -> Entire dungeon can be charmed, even the water elementals. Makes the last boss cake.

Black Loch -> Any non-undead can be charmed. Great to charm the non-undead, then pull the zombies into your new charmed guards. Makes this dungeon cake.

Chains of Flame -> Everything can be charmed. Hard to get the archers, but can be done. Once again, make a room of charmed mobs then pull back non-ranged to get taken out by your new friends.

Offering of Blood -> Can be charmed, but saves are high here. Hard to get scorpions charmed, but when they are it can help greatly. There are better strategies including with Firewall, but if that's not an option...

Epic ADQ -> in a few spots, charm helps... like the bat wing. Charm a pack of bats, then pull subsequent bat packs back.

Epic Von 5 -> Can charm all of the dwarves and warforged, easily charm a pack of dwarves, then pull the undead into your new charmed guards. Makes Von 5 very easy until the final boss.

Epic Von 4 -> Dungeon can be soloed fairly easily, but if you're crawling, charming the warforged is great. They have a lot of CC spells themselves, so having a few casters on your side helps a lot.

Epic Von 6 -> I have seen someone charm the mobs on a base and they kill the dijinni and tower fairly fast. I guess having multiple charmers would clear a base rather quickly, and this raid could be done with 2-3 people.


That being said, there are other weapons at a casters arsenal. Otto's Irresistable Dance is vital to a caster. Disco Ball can help if the DC is high enough. Waves of Exhaustion, Acid Fog, Halt Undead, Polar Ray. It is unfortunate that a lot of our weapons do not work, but these are the tools we have, and should use them to the best of our abilities.

grodon9999
05-11-2010, 10:20 AM
Allow me to sum up what a good caster does in epics:
- Otto's Irresistable Dance
- Mass Hold Monster
- Wall of Fire
- Halt Undead (very situationally, one quest)
- Waves of Exhaustion (situationally)
- Symbol of Persuasion (supposedly, I haven't had good luck with charms, never seen it used)
- maybe a couple of other spells but that about sums it up

This is what my Ranger does in Epic.

- Stuns things with hammers while trying not to get hit
- Beats on things with hammers while they are stunned
- Screams like a girl for heal if I get hit :)
- Whines about the absolute cr@p loot that drops an ponders about how much more money could have been made in IQ or Amrath for the time invested.

What's more varied?

SquelchHU
05-11-2010, 10:56 AM
That said - the high HP are really necessary to provide some sort of challenge after the introduction of Greensteel weapons (and now a couple of non-GS ones like Epic Xuum and the Epic SoS) that allow melees to rip through foes as quickly as they do. Otherwise, everything dies so quickly that the dungeon is a cakewalk.

I've heard this a lot. It is not a valid argument. At all.

Mineral 2 weapon vs mob with no resistance to acid and that is vulnerable to slicing = +5 enhancement, bonus damage dice (usually increases average damage by 1, a few weapons are exceptions), holy (7 damage), acid burst (3.5 damage + more on a crit), acid blast (0.7 damage), slicing (2.5 damage). Net addition of about 21 damage or so.

Basic +5 holy of pure good weapon = +5 enhancement, holy (7 damage), pure good (3.5 damage). Net addition of 15.5 damage.

A difference of 5.5 points. Considering all other sources of damage, the basic holy of pure good is about 10% behind under optimal conditions. 10%. As in if you needed 10 seconds to kill the mob with a basic lootgen weapon, you could do it in 9 with a Min 2. Yes, it is a speed increase. But nowhere near the degree you claim.

Icy burst can apply to the random weapon, but not the greensteel. If you do so, the gap closes to near nothing. And ice is slightly more applicable than acid.

Now you could use the Lightning 2 weapon as the basis of comparison. It is more effective against trash mobs than a Mineral 2. Of course getting into specific weapons like Greater Banes would yield better results for the loot gen weapons as well.

Point is, greensteel weapons while certainly valuable and useful are overhyped. They are not the cause of melee tearing through everything. They are not the cause of massively inflated HP. (remember that people didn't HAVE GS when the Shroud came out... how many HP does Harry have again?)

The reason why enemy HP are massively inflated is because DDO is going the conventional MMO route of 'beat on the big pile of HP' without going so far as to introduce real strategy into the grind fights. It has nothing to do with melee dps, but it does incentivize melee dps because you don't run out of it after 30-40 shots. This is also half the reason why firewall is good (the other half being that the enemies are dumb enough to stay there).

It's not about greensteel, it's about encounters only rewarding sustained damage.

So how can casters play the sustained damage game? Fire wall. They already do this in encounters with non fire immune mobs. I suspect elemental savant will have an energy substitution attached... which sucks for wizards. But for sorcerers, it would at least partially fix it. The only other way would be mana regen... torc + conc op. If they added actual mana regen all the people that had that stuff would be ****ed off. So that cat's already out of the bag.

Narrow? Absolutely. But it's an MMO, so narrow games are SOP.

tinyelvis
05-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Every class in this game is support for another class in some shape. We all need to understand that its great that we can solo certain epics and most dungeons, but the game was designed with teamplay in mind.

I don't think one person has said anything contrary to this in the whole thread.

To circumvent their intentions is our own folly, and if someone doesnt like it, too bad. It is not the developers prerogative to create Epic Solo content.

Who here is complaining about that, why even bring that into the discussion. Perhaps start your own thread and harp on that.

That being said, yes there is a limited amount of damage dealing spells a sorc/wiz can cast in an epic environment. Unfortunately, you are doing more support,

Ok, I am glad to see you admit you agree with my main point. (Other than your use of the word limited as opposed to my "firewall occasionally" we seem to be in complete agreement).


1. Recognizing that there is a "limited amount of damage dealing spells a sorc/wiz" can use in epic.

2. Coming up with a solution so I (and others who feel the same) will be happy

So what are your suggesting for fixing that? That is what this thread is about. If you dont have suggestions, there really is no need to post here. Start another thread. You could title it "How to convince arcane casters to roll over an play ball"

or should be rather, than pure dps output.............

This next statement of yours is pretty outrageous and arrogant. Play the way you want. I will play the way I like and have been in every quest up till epic. Who made you king of deciding who drives the race car and who works in the pit crew. How would you feel if I told you that your position in the party should be high hitpoints, AC, and intimidation...nothing else (and we would not be in the mess we are in now). To leave the DPS to the spell casters. Questing in the majority of the content would be smother if this were so. I and many people feel the sorcerer is a mana/spell based equivalent of a melee DPS. Thats the game I have been playing since 06.

It may be easier for the designers to create questing for melee DPS. Perhaps that is why the game seems to favor them a bit. If they find it impossible to create epic content that I find enjoyable, then my options are simple. However, I really don't think you speak for them or the community. IF you do, let me and the rest of us know.

tinyelvis
05-11-2010, 01:03 PM
I've heard this a lot. It is not a valid argument. At all.

Mineral 2 weapon vs mob with no resistance to acid and that is vulnerable to slicing = +5 enhancement, bonus damage dice (usually increases average damage by 1, a few weapons are exceptions), holy (7 damage), acid burst (3.5 damage + more on a crit), acid blast (0.7 damage), slicing (2.5 damage). Net addition of about 21 damage or so.

Basic +5 holy of pure good weapon = +5 enhancement, holy (7 damage), pure good (3.5 damage). Net addition of 15.5 damage.

A difference of 5.5 points. Considering all other sources of damage, the basic holy of pure good is about 10% behind under optimal conditions. 10%. As in if you needed 10 seconds to kill the mob with a basic lootgen weapon, you could do it in 9 with a Min 2. Yes, it is a speed increase. But nowhere near the degree you claim.

Icy burst can apply to the random weapon, but not the greensteel. If you do so, the gap closes to near nothing. And ice is slightly more applicable than acid.

Now you could use the Lightning 2 weapon as the basis of comparison. It is more effective against trash mobs than a Mineral 2. Of course getting into specific weapons like Greater Banes would yield better results for the loot gen weapons as well.

Point is, greensteel weapons while certainly valuable and useful are overhyped. They are not the cause of melee tearing through everything. They are not the cause of massively inflated HP. (remember that people didn't HAVE GS when the Shroud came out... how many HP does Harry have again?)

The reason why enemy HP are massively inflated is because DDO is going the conventional MMO route of 'beat on the big pile of HP' without going so far as to introduce real strategy into the grind fights. It has nothing to do with melee dps, but it does incentivize melee dps because you don't run out of it after 30-40 shots. This is also half the reason why firewall is good (the other half being that the enemies are dumb enough to stay there).

It's not about greensteel, it's about encounters only rewarding sustained damage.

So how can casters play the sustained damage game? Fire wall. They already do this in encounters with non fire immune mobs. I suspect elemental savant will have an energy substitution attached... which sucks for wizards. But for sorcerers, it would at least partially fix it. The only other way would be mana regen... torc + conc op. If they added actual mana regen all the people that had that stuff would be ****ed off. So that cat's already out of the bag.

Narrow? Absolutely. But it's an MMO, so narrow games are SOP.

This is also a good assessment.

zm00094
05-11-2010, 01:20 PM
"So you want to start hitting things for 5000 non-crit damage is what you're saying? You do know that spells can be used in any place, so the epic spells wouldn't be limited to just Epics. So then we'd have arcanes running around in non-epics casting epic spells criting things for over 15000 damage in one shot. Totally balanced "

"because then why would you bring melee other than the tank. Raid set up: 2 Healers, 1 Intimidate Tank, 9 Arcanes."

Hey Daehawk, I just wanted to comment on this statement, and I don't mean for it to be in any way antagonistic. My point is just this: the only setting in which a 15,000 damage spell is overpowering is against red and purple named mobs. Other than that, dead is dead. 15,000 damage is no different from finger. On the other hand, epic sword of shadows can be used in non-epic content to devastating effect.

Also, for the second quote, this is exactly how many Shroud AND ToD AND VoD runs are organized right now, but in favor of melee instead of arcane. In fact, these raids don't really need any arcanes at all. It might be refreshing to have a high level raid that is designed in favor of arcanes.

I tend to agree with the OP. Damage dealing with spells (other than fire wall) is simply not an option in epic quests, and MANY of the non-damage dealing spells are not useful in epic. This leaves casters with very few options. HARD quests are great, BORING quests are not, and very few options = boring. If Turbine wants casters to move toward damage dealing, then we need some legitimate options for damage dealing over the duration of an entire quest. If not, then we need some legitimate options for doing other stuff over the duration of an entire quest. Even better would be BOTH!!! Not overpowered, just legitimate options.

Chai
05-11-2010, 01:21 PM
Lower Epic Mobs HPs and give them epic abilities. Buffing our characters to new heights is only going to cause a massive power difference between all characters at level 20. It will become a game of you can't join the group unless you have x build and y items. Give epic mobs epic abilites, and make us come up with a strategy to deal with them.

This will mean those minotaur shaman trash mobs now toss max empowered hellballs and greater ruin around with no limit to their spell pool and no way to interrupt their casting, because they dont play by the same rules as PC casters.

Raiyum would be unstoppable with epic spells.

Crazyfruit
05-11-2010, 01:39 PM
...

Fantastic post, I'll have to try a couple of those with my bard later :)

One addition to your list from me: Sleet storm. It worked so well in epics I took the spell on a sorcerer

Diarden
05-11-2010, 01:53 PM
Maybe I should be more clear...

Because of the state of DDO and how there is limited SP regen in the game, melee dps has always been superior. It is sustainable. Sustainable dps has always been the most important aspect of any MMO. What you are asking Elvis is a way for melee dps to become obsolete. You are asking Turbine to raise the damage of arcane casters (dont mind you the fact that divine casters are left out in your argument) so that they compete with epic mobs HP and defenses.

Epic trash has around 6-20k hp. You propose to make it so arcane casters can -

- 1 shot most trash mobs that are debuffed with FoD and Wail
- 1 shot most trash with a crit polar ray (you stated 200d6 base damage would be appropriate?)

I wanted to make those statements clear so I completely understand.

You also want the ability to debuff mobs to remove their death ward effect. Does this mean that mobs should be able to debuff us if we are wearing a deathblock item so they can destruct/FoD us? I am under the assumption, since I can energy drain mobs, that they have deathblock and not deathward. Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems fair that if I am wearing a deathblock effect, a mob should be able to also.

Maybe things are too difficult for you? Maybe you should stay away from Epic dungeons because you cant race through and Wail/Polar everything at ease. I propose that Turbine should make a Casual Epic difficulty for you, who knows, they may listen.

Chai
05-11-2010, 02:36 PM
Mobs have epic ward. It has an insane description which basically alerts you to the fact that if you try any of the normal strats against epic mobs they will fall short. Adding this special condition, plus raising the hp to insane levels somehow constitutes high end content.

This creates an unrealistic situation. Every schlub ogre and hobgoblin who is supposed to be dumb as a pile of bricks now has a will save that cant be overcome without drastic measures, is butt naked with a loincloth and somehow has a minimum 58 ac, and is immune to stat damage (well almost) and immune to 2/3 of all spells.

The issue here is that each time they want to make new high end content, expect to see this formula flossed over and over again. Having an end game dungeon or two with mobs that have super hyper omni global mega hp is fine, but when this is the only formula left to challenge high end game players, its going to get old real quick.

I have already seen parts of epic GH, and I am not seeing anything different then the other epic quests. Warded mobs, tons of HP, immune to roughly 2/3 of all spells. Lots and lots and lots of firewalling and melee afterwards. after completing, we went in to try different strats with the understanding that we would likely die using some, and its basically all the same strats that work in the other epics, working in GH.

Same formula for manufacturing the dungeons = same formula to beat them. The reason I liked DDO in the previous MODs from day 1 is that this wasnt the case. Its getting to feel alot like EQ did after POP came out.

Diarden
05-11-2010, 02:51 PM
I agree 100% that the forumla for Epic dungeons is way off, I am just stating that there are more than one strategies that work currently, and that increasing the base damage for casters arcane spells is not the solution. The solution is changing epic dungeons to a more strategic venture, and altering the dungeons slightly to accommodate that.

Will it happen? No. The formula is easy for Turbine to institute, and putting in higher end gear will quell our complaints for a little while as they bring in more cash from the Premium players. DDO is on its way out for us VIPs and we better get used to the idea. Now that the DDO Store has become the cash cow that it is, Turbine will change its business model from "A game for gamers" to "A game that brings in cash to our pockets".

tinyelvis
05-11-2010, 06:03 PM
Just to stay on track, I want to remind folks the theme of the thread is,

1) Sorcerers over time have been losing their offensive capability and have all but lost it completely in Epic quests (firewall a notable exception):

2) What are some suggestions to restore it:

Now, if you look at my posts you will see I made some suggestion, not all have to do with damage increase.


2. Reduce mob saves:

Idea: Make Death attacks viable again:

How to Impliment: Reduce greatly the saves of many mobs in epic content. In particular, reduce greatly the fortitude save to an extent that a caster with a 37 DC will have an 80% chance of success in a single cast. Eliminate the blanket immunity from death attacks.Another suggestion involved increasing for capped toons the damage of SOME spells (obviously not firewall) by a factor of 10. I am not married to the idea, however, given the HP's of mobs, this is not that incredible. It would mean your ultimate character would kill epic trash mobs in 1 to 3 casts. This is not a ridiculous expectation. Of the trash you face, a sorcerer could then cast 30 - 40 times killing 15 to 20 trash between shrines. Plus, unlike now, a sorcerers offensive participation in red named fights would mean something. Not a ridiculous expectation at all.

How would this impact lower level quests. Outside of Shavarath, not at all except for raids where a castor or a melee could achieve equal success combating end boss (should this not really be the case anyway?) In Shavarath, instead of killing trash in 1 - 3 casts you would now kill it likely in 1-2 casts. Outside of Shavarath and some raids you would still kill everything in one cast as you do now.

Epic play matters to everyone, because the highest level content drives everything in the game. Over time, the current state of epic play will drastically effect the sorcerer build. Many have seen it happen in the past. For example, just prior to Shavarath, one of the most popular types of sorcerer was the necromancer build. When Shavarath came, and the uber high fort saves, this build was essentially killed off overnight (never mind it still was uber over 95% of the rest of the game). I can see where this epic thing is leading sorcerers and I don't like it.

osirisisis
05-13-2010, 09:44 AM
WF arcanes can solo epic von 1 and 2 in under 15 minutes, I see no need to give them a larger advantage.

I second this thought. I go as far to say that Reconstruct type spells need to go divine seeing how there really not much point that I can find to make any other race when you know how to build melee/arcane centered around divine favor warforge with 20000 hitpoints in reconstruct type spells, mass arcane offense and good DPS.

tinyelvis
05-14-2010, 04:34 AM
Melee arcane does look like the future. I won't be around for it.

magnus1
05-14-2010, 08:41 AM
so can someone tell me where do thieves fit in, in the epic quests? should i even bring him and try to join or will i get laughed out of the quest?

grodon9999
05-14-2010, 08:57 AM
so can someone tell me where do thieves fit in, in the epic quests? should i even bring him and try to join or will i get laughed out of the quest?

It depends, are you made of tissue paper with 180 HP and no heavy fort? We took a rogue with like 320 HP into VoN 1&2 and he did fine because he was smart.

From my limited observations rogues can do well. Most of the mobs have 0% fort and we use all kind of sneekery to get the aggro on somebody who isn't actually fighting so you can really cause a bunch of damage to the trash.

Some places the traps can be brutal a difficult to jump through, a "real" rogue is nice to take care of them. My Exploiter can actually disarm some of the traps on Epic but I can only spot them with a bard, GH, prayer, and every other buff under the sun. I think a full rogue should be fine doing that especially since the traps get nerfed a little in the last update.

magnus1
05-14-2010, 09:17 AM
It depends, are you made of tissue paper with 180 HP and no heavy fort? We took a rogue with like 320 HP into VoN 1&2 and he did fine because he was smart.

From my limited observations rogues can do well. Most of the mobs have 0% fort and we use all kind of sneekery to get the aggro on somebody who isn't actually fighting so you can really cause a bunch of damage to the trash.

Some places the traps can be brutal a difficult to jump through, a "real" rogue is nice to take care of them. My Exploiter can actually disarm some of the traps on Epic but I can only spot them with a bard, GH, prayer, and every other buff under the sun. I think a full rogue should be fine doing that especially since the traps get nerfed a little in the last update.

thank you, this gives me hope that my 315/hvy fort. rogue might see an epic token once.

Raiderone
05-14-2010, 09:50 AM
1)Lower CR and HP.

2)Give the mobs Epic DR of 20 or more.

3)Multiple Random Superior Resistances.
For Instance Fire and Cold, or Acid and Elect, Sonic or Force.

Henrieta
05-14-2010, 10:57 AM
1)
2)Give the mobs Epic DR of 20 or more.


Epic weapons don't do Epic damage at this time, right?

Cyr
05-14-2010, 04:03 PM
Epic weapons don't do Epic damage at this time, right?

Correct, unless you slot them with that augement.