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Krag
05-05-2010, 07:56 AM
Problem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

Belwaar
05-05-2010, 08:09 AM
Mass Comet Fall ftw!!! :eek::D:eek:

Kriogen
05-05-2010, 08:54 AM
Mass Comet Fall ftw!!! :eek::D:eek:
Meteor Shower. Once per second, for 6 seconds per caster level, Comets drop on all creatures within large area.

Cyr
05-05-2010, 09:01 AM
Promlem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

So what your saying is as a divine you want to be able to do the best things an arcane can do also...

/not signed

BurningDownTheHouse
05-05-2010, 09:06 AM
Promlem: playing offensive divine caster in epic is no fun.

Reason: epic questing is very resource extensive and there are only a few mana-efficient spells. Heal, Mass Heal, Mass Cure X. Noone likes being pigeoneholed into being a healbot but healbotting/babysitting is all clerics do in epic quests. L

Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
Useful offensive spells include:
- debuffs that significantly increase DPS (i.e. Mass Hold Monster)
- no-save croud control (i.e. Otto's Irresistible Dance)
- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)

If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first :p

sirgog
05-05-2010, 10:16 AM
If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first :p

BB is a trivial amount of damage in Epics. Most trash mobs survive twenty hits of a BB easily; some survive forty. Crit BBs are borderline relevant but are too rare to rely upon.

Currently, divine casters that are specced for offensive casting are gimped in Epics - all the AP and feats they invested into offensive casting (things like Spell Penetration feats/enhancements, Heighten Spell, and maxxing Wisdom) are wasted in Epics.

OTOH, divine casters shouldn't eclipse arcane casters like they did when the cap was 16 - a balance is needed.

IMO, some form of powerful crowd control that doesn't have the massive DPS increase of Mass Hold Monster is probably enough - perhaps Storm of Vengeance could be implemented like this:

Storm of Vengeance
Clr/FvS 9
Cast time: Long (as Mass Heal)
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Effect: Creates the following effects in a large (40 ft radius) sphere centered on the caster that persists for two minutes, but ends early if the caster conjures a second Storm of Vengeance:
1. Enemy movement is slowed, as a Solid Fog spell
2. Enemies are struck by lightning bolts dealing 10d10 damage once per six seconds (Reflex half). On a failed save, the foe is tripped (Balance check, DC equal to the spell DC to get up)
3. Attacks made by foes suffer a 20% concealment miss chance.

That's a spell with only modest damage output (175 damage per six seconds max-empped), but one that has a significant crowd control effect - tripping foes, helping prevent the party from becoming overwhelmed.

Aerendil
05-05-2010, 10:21 AM
Aren't there a number of divine spells that offer no save and no spell resistance?

I don't see the big deal here...


PS - divine casters have never really been able to CC, except for perhaps the command line and the occasional hold. Nothing like what arcanes can do, anyways. Leave them to their forte.

sirgog
05-05-2010, 10:32 AM
Aren't there a number of divine spells that offer no save and no spell resistance?

I don't see the big deal here...


PS - divine casters have never really been able to CC, except for perhaps the command line and the occasional hold. Nothing like what arcanes can do, anyways. Leave them to their forte.


Pre-Epic, they have excellent CC in Implosion (which is weaker than the arcane Wail, but still excellent). Implosion rewards a high Wisdom for DCs, and Spell Penetration.

In Epics, they have... ... ... Cometfall and Greater Command (plus the very situational Symbols, but Arcanes get them too). Two 'save or be tripped' effects - nothing really rewarding high spell DCs or Spell Penetration.


At present endgame, there is no reason whatsoever to spec a Cleric or Favored Soul in any way other than hybrid melee/healer - a build that can basically dump Wisdom. This strikes me as silly - although my main is a melee/healing hybrid cleric, I don't think two classes should be pigeonholed so narrowly.

Diarden
05-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Some of the spells that work well in epics...

Heal & Mass Heal (I've solo killed Epic Rayium with Mass Heal)
Bladebarrier ( in certain situations )
Symbol of Persuasion (with a high enough DC, will ROCK in most epics)
Symbol of Stunning (increases dps for the rest of the group)

We are not meant to be pure offensive casters, that's what wizards and sorcs are for. There's no reason why we cannot be some type of hybrid, but we should not be able to fill the role completely. My Fvs/monk can heal, cast and melee dps, but the only role that I am best in is healing. That's the role I am meant to fill when I join a raid or a group, the casting or melee dps is extra.

Aspenor
05-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Divine Casters do not have Hold Monster nor Mass Hold Monster on their class spell list, so that's out.

Earthquake would be okay, but isn't that great of a spell. It only lasts 1 round and doesn't do a whole lot.

Storm of Vengeance would be nice.

Clerics don't really get the great things a spellcaster gets at high level. They get some amazing spells, but not ones that'd be useful in this game. Of course, this is just looking at the PHB, I haven't gotten out the spell compendium.

Angelus_dead
05-05-2010, 10:44 AM
Solution: Add more useful offensive divine spells.
That would be a useful change, but for other purposes and not really to solve the epic thing. The problems with epic mode should be mainly addressed by adjusting the design of epic mode itself.

Another helpful change would be opening Improved Heightening APs to Clerics...


- heavy Damage-per-Mana spells (i.e. Firewall)
The better way to do that is buff all other damage spells aside from FW/BB to be more efficient. The big difference in hp/sp between those lingering AOEs and everything else is too much (and prehaps the lingering AOEs should be nerfed some first). The devs would be more successful at this if they expand on their possible ways to differentiate spells- for example, maybe most non-lingering damage spells could be given an (optional) percentage reduction in spellpoint cost, so they get more efficient even without the damage going up.

Krag
05-05-2010, 12:00 PM
If you add all of your suggestions to the devine caster, there will be no reason to play an arcae caster...
Sounds like you should just play an arcane caster man.

P.S. Isn't Blade Barier a "heavy Damage-per-Mana spell"?

EDIT: A shucks, Cyr got there first :p

You seem to believe that healing others is an advantage of divine classes. I regard it as a duty that drains your mana and makes your pocket bleed.

Arcanes can heal themselves just as good, are not expected to heal anyone (save for maintanks in two raids) and have a dosen of useful spells at any level. This is not a coincidence that the first ones to report soloing quest are always WF casters.

P.S. No. BB used to be great DPM spell midlevels, still decent in Amrath but only mediocre in epics.

Cyr
05-05-2010, 03:39 PM
You seem to believe that healing others is an advantage of divine classes. I regard it as a duty that drains your mana and makes your pocket bleed.

Arcanes can heal themselves just as good, are not expected to heal anyone (save for maintanks in two raids) and have a dosen of useful spells at any level. This is not a coincidence that the first ones to report soloing quest are always WF casters.

P.S. No. BB used to be great DPM spell midlevels, still decent in Amrath but only mediocre in epics.

It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

Slink
05-05-2010, 04:15 PM
+1 for the OP.


It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

I now understand your sig.

Krag
05-05-2010, 04:40 PM
It sounds like you shouldn't be playing a divine. Seriously, if you hate healing others why are you not just playing a WF caster instead of trying to give the the main strengths of another class to divines?

I know which one is more likely to happen first...

What stops me from playing WF caster? Only a couple of TOD completions. Want to get a shot at +4 tome before reincarnating.

I know very few clerics that are not planning to reincarnate into melee FvS or WF arcane after getting a taste of the "endgame".

Nezichiend
05-05-2010, 04:50 PM
Energy drain + hold person. It works without heighten on my clr (40 wis), so with heighten..... give it a shot. Of course it doesn't work against undead but some of the things in VoN1 it works on.

AylinIsAwesome
05-05-2010, 08:10 PM
BB is a trivial amount of damage in Epics. Most trash mobs survive twenty hits of a BB easily; some survive forty. Crit BBs are borderline relevant but are too rare to rely upon.

Currently, divine casters that are specced for offensive casting are gimped in Epics - all the AP and feats they invested into offensive casting (things like Spell Penetration feats/enhancements, Heighten Spell, and maxxing Wisdom) are wasted in Epics.

OTOH, divine casters shouldn't eclipse arcane casters like they did when the cap was 16 - a balance is needed.

IMO, some form of powerful crowd control that doesn't have the massive DPS increase of Mass Hold Monster is probably enough - perhaps Storm of Vengeance could be implemented like this:

Storm of Vengeance
Clr/FvS 9
Cast time: Long (as Mass Heal)
Cooldown: 30 seconds

Effect: Creates the following effects in a large (40 ft radius) sphere centered on the caster that persists for two minutes, but ends early if the caster conjures a second Storm of Vengeance:
1. Enemy movement is slowed, as a Solid Fog spell
2. Enemies are struck by lightning bolts dealing 10d10 damage once per six seconds (Reflex half). On a failed save, the foe is tripped (Balance check, DC equal to the spell DC to get up)
3. Attacks made by foes suffer a 20% concealment miss chance.

That's a spell with only modest damage output (175 damage per six seconds max-empped), but one that has a significant crowd control effect - tripping foes, helping prevent the party from becoming overwhelmed.

I want this spell.


I dislike being told to "just heal" through a quest; watching health bars and doing nothing else is boring.

Guildmaster_Kadish
05-05-2010, 08:30 PM
Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

Chai
05-05-2010, 08:34 PM
So what your saying is as a divine you want to be able to do the best things an arcane can do also...

/not signed

/agree.

Give my sorc heal and mass heal, with all the apropriate amplifications, and we can talk.

AylinIsAwesome
05-05-2010, 08:41 PM
Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

The problem with Blade Barrier (and don't get me wrong, I love that spell), is that most groups don't want to work with it. Most of the time I cast it, only to see the Arcane throw a Dance Ball right on top of it (negating my spell completely) or the melee run out in front of it.


The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

Agree.

sirgog
05-05-2010, 09:36 PM
Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

Even the 9% of Bladebarriers that crit do too little damage in Epics to be of any use except against certain trash mobs (those trash that are highly mobile and have no immobilising or deadly ranged attacks like Cometfall).

vVAnjilaVv
05-05-2010, 09:52 PM
From all I have been hearing Epic is no fun for any class.

You basically backed into a corner as to what you can use....I basically see it as nothing more than a gureling conquest to get an insanely powerful item that you can't use until ur level 20 if u TR and isn't even needed to be effective for 95% of the content in the game....if not more.

Personally, I think epic is a scam.....and I am very wary of buying into it at all. To me, this game ends at ToD. Even Amarath IMO is pushing into the area of severly limiting builds and what is useful...Epic is just crosiing the line.

If Epic was more attentive to everything we worked to get thru 20 levels of gaining xp instead of taking a huge portion of it away....I think it would be much more fun......Epic is a job....not a game.

I have waltzed into an Epic dungeon once...with a character I could solo much of Amarath with......the fact that I didn't last for 5 seconds was very disheartning.

I'd say the only good thing about Epic is u don't have to buy new packs to get it, of course they crossed that line a little to tho with the newest pack......but most of the pack was a mid level pack anyways. Honestly I think Turbine would be way better of making more high end non epic content....or reworking what is effective in epic.

Without either of these things being done I think Turbine is heading for the same road we were on just before EU went live and everyone lost hope.

I know everyone says epic is really for the powergamer crowd.....but I can't even see those player being happy with being so severly limited as to what is effective there.

Chai
05-05-2010, 10:39 PM
Cant just mindlessly mow everything down with two khopeshes anymore, can we? Well well well, looks like tactics are back on the menu! Just what I was waiting to see in DDO land. - an actual challenge in the high end game that makes people think and work together, and not just learn the one strat that works, and then mindlessly plow through it as much as possible.

The issue is no one tries strats they didnt like in the non epic content, because mobs dont live longer than three seconds. When mobs can live minutes, alot of these spells no one even thinks of become good choices. Alot of things you can do in regular quests that are not worth it when leveling, become worth it in epics.

Trash mobs can be enervated and turned to stone. /Auto crit on.

Mobs can be bluff pulled one at a time. I have seen many people claim this is a waste. Too bad for them.

Kensai stuns FTW. I posted a stun build on the forums 2 years ago and it got laughed right off the page by the min maxers who only know one word: Khopesh. With kensai adding as much as it does to tactics, I stun mobs all the time in epics. My fighters stun is over 50 dc. When twitched right, I have stunned 2 mobs. This isnt hard to get, nor do you have to farm mega gear to get it, as it is part of the build.

Blindness is a huge plus in epics.

Mass hold for the win.

Waves of exhaustion.

Cleric symbols work more often than not too, especially the ones that debuff.

The problem is that people tout damage too much , and not enough utility. Everything on the boards is DPS this and DPS that. If a spell doesnt crit into the thousands, people dont like casting them. A good sorc or wizard with a list of debuffs is a huge boon to groups in epics.

One thing seen less in this game that you see alot more in PnP is utility casters. In the end game, these are a party life saver, and your healer will appreciate not having to guzzle mana potions every few minutes.

sirgog
05-06-2010, 12:54 AM
From all I have been hearing Epic is no fun for any class.

You basically backed into a corner as to what you can use....I basically see it as nothing more than a gureling conquest to get an insanely powerful item that you can't use until ur level 20 if u TR and isn't even needed to be effective for 95% of the content in the game....if not more....


I know everyone says epic is really for the powergamer crowd.....but I can't even see those player being happy with being so severly limited as to what is effective there.

Epic dungeons allow more versatility in tactics than most higher level raids do.

vVAnjilaVv
05-06-2010, 01:04 AM
Epic dungeons allow more versatility in tactics than most higher level raids do.

See...I don't mind the tactics...in fact I like that quite a bit......but it sounds like a lot of stuff just simply doesn't work anymore......even if u used it tactically...it would have little or no effect.

I love using tactical play...and I have to because I solo a lot.

What I don't like is how I level my kensei to 20 and am all specced out for trip and sunder and all the sudden it's useless compared to stun. I mean are melees even allowed in epics if they are not stun specc'ed? I'm not respeccing my fighter to stun just so I can get into an epic group......that's the kind of stuff that annoys me.

Shade
05-06-2010, 01:07 AM
Everything that works well on normal-elite, works fine on epic. Except insta kill effects. It's a common misconception that things like cometfall, greater command, symbols, etc, etc that divines can cast don't work on epic. They work just fine. You just need your character to be specialized for that, same as an arcane.

I don't see that as so limiting.

Yea a fvs/clr brings allot less potent CC/debuff ability then an arcane does to the table.. But thats perfectly balanced out by there incredible healing power.

Only issue I see atm is the lack of progression in the epic loot for divine casters.

Arcanes can get further elemental DPS with things like superior lore (red scale, epic zephy cloak, epic seal of earth, etc)

But divines have no real options to further healing abilities or untyped spells like blade barrier and cometfall.

I think they should add type blade barrier as slashing energy damage, and cometfall as blutn energy, and add special epic clickies/lores to further boost specificly them.

Should also gain allot more overall spell power/dps on epic if the upcoming offensive pres are designed well. I Could see favored souls getting a decent at-will nuke, slightly worse then there capstone verison (searling light) at the start, but be boostable via gear like ToD sets and epics to be superior and potent on epic as a damage dealing ability to mix in with heals at a no, or low (1so) cost.

vVAnjilaVv
05-06-2010, 01:10 AM
Everything that works well on normal-elite, works fine on epic. Except insta kill effects. It's a common misconception that things like cometfall, greater command, symbols, etc, etc that divines can cast don't work on epic. They work just fine. You just need your character to be specialized for that, same as an arcane.

I don't see that as so limiting.

Yea a fvs/clr brings allot less potent CC/debuff ability then an arcane does to the table.. But thats perfectly balanced out by there incredible healing power.

Only issue I see atm is the lack of progression in the epic loot for divine casters.

Arcanes can get further elemental DPS with things like superior lore (red scale, epic zephy cloak, epic seal of earth, etc)

But divines have no real options to further healing abilities or untyped spells like blade barrier and cometfall.

I think they should add type blade barrier as slashing energy damage, and cometfall as blutn energy, and add special epic clickies/lores to further boost specificly them.

Should also gain allot more overall spell power/dps on epic if the upcoming offensive pres are designed well. I Could see favored souls getting a decent at-will nuke, slightly worse then there capstone verison (searling light) at the start, but be boostable via gear like ToD sets and epics to be superior and potent on epic as a damage dealing ability to mix in with heals at a no, or low (1so) cost.

So then all the negative talk I have been hearing people saying is just players who don't know what they are talking about....I would really love for that to be the case and hope it is.

Shade
05-06-2010, 01:15 AM
So then all the negative talk I have been hearing people saying is just players who don't know what they are talking about....I would really love for that to be the case and hope it is.

It's just the mindset of how people build characters I think.

Most player who make casters will max there casting stat and take appropriate feats like heighten.

Where as a cleric/fvs is a rather varied mix of some people who play melee spec,s some who spec simply for healing and go high charisma, and some that spec for max casting DC.

It's just the amount of player who really spec for max casting DC and understand how to exploit an epic mobs weakness with the right spells is a rather low percentage of players.

But it certainly does work and work well. Great example is VoN3 Epic:
Lots of earth elementals with weak will saves, but are immune to arcanes strong willsave CC (mass hold).. But greater command works awesome.
Later in the quest you'll encountera good share of melee mobs and casters.. Dropping some cometfalls here on there will knock them down quite often.. But not the ranger types.. So you just need to target ther right foes with the right spells.
Symbol of persuasion can work well too if you like charms.

vVAnjilaVv
05-06-2010, 01:21 AM
It's just the mindset of how people build characters I think.

Most player who make casters will max there casting stat and take appropriate feats like heighten.

Where as a cleric/fvs is a rather varied mix of some people who play melee spec,s some who spec simply for healing and go high charisma, and some that spec for max casting DC.

It's just the amount of player who really spec for max casting DC and understand how to exploit an epic mobs weakness with the right spells is a rather low percentage of players.

But it certainly does work and work well. Great example is VoN3 Epic:
Lots of earth elementals with weak will saves, but are immune to arcanes strong willsave CC (mass hold).. But greater command works awesome.
Later in the quest you'll encountera good share of melee mobs and casters.. Dropping some cometfalls here on there will knock them down quite often.. But not the ranger types.. So you just need to target ther right foes with the right spells.
Symbol of persuasion can work well too if you like charms.

See, I was thinking a TRx3 conjuration specced cleric would be really nice. I was really thinking that would be the best option for an offensive casting cleric.....your DC's would be very high on both cometfall and heal and cure spells on undead. Same for a FVS......level 2-3 times as cleric and finally as a FVS to get the passive past life cleric feats.

I was under the impression that the DC's of mobs were so high in Epic that it was almost impossible to land spells.

Shade
05-06-2010, 01:27 AM
I was under the impression that the DC's of mobs were so high in Epic that it was almost impossible to land spells.[/COLOR]

Nah. Even a non-tr clr or fvs will land just fine long as he has the appriopriate wisdom and gear.

Some of the older epics like OOB feature rather extreme saves that are tough to beat, but still doable with the right gear..
But all the new VoN and Sentinels ones saves are quite low and managable.

Dunklerlindwurm
05-06-2010, 01:32 AM
From all I have been hearing Epic is no fun for any class.

You basically backed into a corner as to what you can use....I basically see it as nothing more than a gureling conquest to get an insanely powerful item that you can't use until ur level 20 if u TR and isn't even needed to be effective for 95% of the content in the game....if not more.

Personally, I think epic is a scam.....and I am very wary of buying into it at all. To me, this game ends at ToD. Even Amarath IMO is pushing into the area of severly limiting builds and what is useful...Epic is just crosiing the line.

If Epic was more attentive to everything we worked to get thru 20 levels of gaining xp instead of taking a huge portion of it away....I think it would be much more fun......Epic is a job....not a game.

I have waltzed into an Epic dungeon once...with a character I could solo much of Amarath with......the fact that I didn't last for 5 seconds was very disheartning.

I'd say the only good thing about Epic is u don't have to buy new packs to get it, of course they crossed that line a little to tho with the newest pack......but most of the pack was a mid level pack anyways. Honestly I think Turbine would be way better of making more high end non epic content....or reworking what is effective in epic.

Without either of these things being done I think Turbine is heading for the same road we were on just before EU went live and everyone lost hope.

I know everyone says epic is really for the powergamer crowd.....but I can't even see those player being happy with being so severly limited as to what is effective there.

After playing alot of Epic Dungeons thats how i see it too.

Epic is for the Powergamers....

The best Group in VoN 1 Epic? 6 self healing Arcanes who run in circels with firewall.

The best Group in Wizard King? 6 self healing Arcanes....with Firewall of course.

Melees and Divines or more or less useless. Sure you can Deal damage with them but you will never be as useful in Epic as the Firewall.

But of course...Epic is a nice idea of Turbine to keep powergamers in the game for a long time without making new content.

AylinIsAwesome
05-06-2010, 05:43 AM
Nah. Even a non-tr clr or fvs will land just fine long as he has the appriopriate wisdom and gear.

Ok, I've been largely avoiding Epics while I finish getting all the non-Epic gear I want.

So, will a DC of 37 be ok? 34 for non-Evocation spells.

DC calc:

10 base
+ 9 spell level (Heighten)
+ 14 WIS mod
+ 2 Evocation Focus/Greater Evocation Focus (feats)
+ 2 Greater Evocation Focus (item)
= 37 Evocation/34 non-Evocation

WIS calc:

18 base
+ 5 levels
+ 2 class enhancements
+ 1 racial
+ 6 item
+ 2 exceptional
+ 1 profane
+ 3 tome
= 38 (+14 bonus)

Krag
05-06-2010, 06:01 AM
Bladebarrier works extremely well as an offensive spell, even in epic. Provided, of course, that your party is willing to cooperate with that strategy (it tends to be far more mana efficient, but far slower than meleeing through everything).

This is an obscure way to say things. Let me put it straight. Firewall stacks with party dps. BB does not.
That wasn't much of a deal way back at level 11 when melees were using their rusty +1 acid of deception junkswords. It becomes a waste with a group that uses stun+SoS/heavy picks. Your petty BB with 9% chance of a weak crit becomes as useful and fun as kiting archer.


As for the soloing purposes Firewall can be used from a safe perching point while shieldblocking. BB requires you to stay close to the mobs and constant moving.

And at last but not at least. FW works equally good on all kinds of enemies. BB sucks a big one against archers, casters and only effects non-evasion melee brutes.


The problem really is the epic ward that makes implosion, destruction, etcetera useless, hence punishing players who invest in Spell Pen and Spell Focus.

This is true. The best clerical spell doesn't work in epic.

Krag
05-06-2010, 06:23 AM
Cant just mindlessly mow everything down with two khopeshes anymore, can we? Well well well, looks like tactics are back on the menu! Just what I was waiting to see in DDO land. - an actual challenge in the high end game that makes people think and work together, and not just learn the one strat that works, and then mindlessly plow through it as much as possible.

Last time I checked, brute force still works wonders. Autocrit FTW!
Add some AI exploiting if you lack the strength.

grodon9999
05-06-2010, 10:09 AM
Cant just mindlessly mow everything down with two khopeshes anymore, can we? Well well well, looks like tactics are back on the menu! Just what I was waiting to see in DDO land. - an actual challenge in the high end game that makes people think and work together, and not just learn the one strat that works, and then mindlessly plow through it as much as possible.

I've just started doing epics, got maybe a dozen tokens and as many House D runs looking for the stuff to build the bracers. While I agree you have to use different tactics, for those of us who are only "Elite" equipped it relies on an amount of AI-exploiting and meta-gaming that you can no longer delude yourself into thinking you are still playing Dungeons and Dragons. Mobs standing in firewalls shooting at a Caster who's un-accessible while you beat on them with weighted hammers is just silly.

As far as a challenge goes I think several of the Amrath quests on elite are tougher than some of the epics.

Don't get me wrong, it's still fun and i wouldn't do it if I didn't enjoy it. I just prefer the "standard" play-style better than what we do in Epic. YMMV but I hope to see more non-Epic highend content in the future.

maddmatt70
05-06-2010, 12:24 PM
I do not want the same spells that an arcane can cast, but I would like a larger variety of spells or at least some of the spells fixed. Flame Strike I bug reported back when it first came into the game and then did the same when firestorm came out - I eventually just gave up because I realized the developers did not plan to ever make these spells useful. These spells in pnp are great but in DDO the casting time is too slow and with no enhancement line there dps is shoddy.

Giant Vermin, Gate, Planar Ally, Holy Word, Storm of Vengenance and Miracle are some other great pnp spells that are not in DDO. It would be interesting if they added Miracle because then a level 17 cleric could cast ottos irresistable dance, haste and other arcane spells it would just cost them more spell points to do so. Then of course for clerics there are domains which add some great variety to available divine spells, but domains are not in the game.

The developers did alot of work when they came out with update 1 4 levels, new spells, new prestige classes, new class, but since there has not been many new developments.

patang01
05-06-2010, 01:26 PM
I've played a few Epic quests and I can't agree with the notion that they're more tactical or strategic - what I've noticed is that they rely more on SPECIFIC tactics but not on a very broad base. Healers (I'm a FvS) is usually left to heal bot since the only other effective spell seems to be energy drain.

It boils down to crowd control and everything used with that such as stun, subjugation, firewall with shield block etc. There's nothing especially tactical about that - it is to take one specific tactic and specialize in it.
And for most part the GS gear that you have worked so hard to obtain is of less value then some of the specific items that include weighted etc.

I don't want to rip on Epic - I like the idea of a challenge to people that have worked very hard to get there, but there are two major flaws:

Epic does not reward people who build a good character - they reward people who specialize. And it does that by making sure people substitute real tactics for exploit of AI, spawn sequence and use of specific spells.
Second - it removes the sense of reward because of its nature of randomness - like you need a scroll (that drops from killing mobs that can be taken by anyone) a seal and a shard. But any epic seal and shard drops in any chest - removing a sense of running say a specific quest for that specific item. Like if you grind any kind of quest you expect to get something that give you that lottery feeling of maybe this time.

Running Epic gives you that (let me grind 1000 of HP on a regular Kobold) time for me to have a chance at a item that I probably have absolutely no interest in wanting.

You run quests for one reason - challenge and specific loot. You know you have to grind - but it feels like going to work every day if you do it for perhaps a penny at the end of the day.

Epic should not be about Epic for specific tactics - Epic should be the feeling of scope and challenge. That the challenge isn't a tiny Kobold hitting you for 150 in damage while having 1000 HP - it should be the feeling of fighting against numerical odds (many) as supposed to mathematical odds (10X the values).

Tactics is when I can use all that I have learned and the experience I have in multi tasking hitting and healing and nuking.

Tactics is not for me to watch trolls burn for 3 minutes with 3 firewalls on top of them hearing them sizzle and pop and heal the tanks when they slow slug the trolls to death for 2-3 minutes while we exploit the quest to siphon them into a room. Because we cannot possible survive one encounter in the open because of how hard the critters hit and the amount of HP they have.

I've played a lot of games and this is nothing short of what is considered computer cheating; that the difficulty setting simply gives the opponent more resources, harder hitting weapons and not using better tactics or have a numerical advantage.

I'd rather see more and faster spawning mobs with slightly better stats to provide a sense of urgency and overwhelming odds.

I cannot for the life of me see any satisfaction in standing on a ramp and see critters burn to a crisp for 5 minutes and call it tactical.

vVAnjilaVv
05-06-2010, 06:40 PM
Mobs standing in firewalls shooting at a Caster who's un-accessible while you beat on them with weighted hammers is just silly.



So are mobs with ridiculous amounts of immunites and 1478296 hp's.

If they are going to adjust one aspect they are going to have to adjust the other.

Diarden
05-07-2010, 07:14 AM
This is sad. It is a shame to say that the majority of these posts are all about Von 1. There are more epics in this game than Von 1. Lets take a look.

Chains of Flame. Can't really throw down a FW and stay in a hidden position while tanks beat on mobs. Tactics are used to complete this mission, otherwise its a very long quest.

ADQ. Can't really FW as a good portion of stuff is immune. Takes more strategy to complete.

Von 3. Yes, FW helps, but not a lot of "high points" to stand in, once again, need strategy to get through this one.

Von 4. Iron Golems, immune to fire. Need strategy for this one as well.

Von 5. Oh, once again, not a lot of high points to firewall from. Need strategy once again.

Von 6. Try firewalling the Dragon.

DQ. Sure, can Firewall her, if you've got a couple hours.

Tide Turns. Not a lot of places to Firewall and be safe. Need strategy for this.

Bargain Bazaar. Yes, you can FW your way through this quest and stand on high platforms... which are not concealed and can be riddled by archers. Not a good strategy for this.

So I gave 8 options for epics where firewall cannot be used as a main strategy. Stop doing Epic Von 1 and 2 and Wiz King, then base your entire Epic experience on those quests alone.

If anyone want's more explanation as to what strategies may be used in any of the quests above, by all means ask. I would be more than willing to lay down some surefire strategies.

Krag
05-07-2010, 07:37 AM
I agree, this is sad.

VoN3. Beat things down.
VoN5. Not worth completing
VoN6. Beat things down

ADQ. Two words: farming trogs.
DQ. Kite efreeti, beat Lailat.

Chains of Flame. Same as VoN5
Tide Turns. Same as VoN5
Bargain Bazaar. Same as VoN5

What is left?

grodon9999
05-07-2010, 07:49 AM
Tide Turns. Not a lot of places to Firewall and be safe. Need strategy for this.

You're probably right for the other quests but this one is very FWable.

grodon9999
05-07-2010, 08:00 AM
So are mobs with ridiculous amounts of immunites and 1478296 hp's.

If they are going to adjust one aspect they are going to have to adjust the other.

True - but I understand why they do this. better AI causes more resource drain, a dev in another thread admitted that smarted AI causes more lag (I thought zerging did that, hmm . . .). So they keep the AI dumb and give them a zillion HP. Not the most elegant solution in the world but it gets the job done.

What'll be interesting to is in 5-10 years what game companies will be able to put out. More CPU power = smarter AI = less need for inflated HP and immunities = more spells would still be effective at higher levels. it'd probably mean the stuff we do now with BB and FW wouldn't work anymore though.

Daliyn
05-07-2010, 11:24 AM
What'll be interesting to is in 5-10 years what game companies will be able to put out. More CPU power = smarter AI = less need for inflated HP

This isn't a new problem. More CPU power has always been sucked up by better graphics and more sophisticated peripheral devices. In 10 years (or some more), I expect to fight Otherland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherland)-like against mobs with a bazillion HP and dumb AI.