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BoBoDaClown
05-04-2010, 03:03 AM
So, on my melee/dps bard (15 bard levels) I only have room for two of the following three feats:

1) Extend: Pretty useful, or else I'm throwing out ~1.40 hastes.
2) Improve Crit: Useful, but can replicate through min2s, but I prefer lightening 2s due to the way they look.
3) Khop: Obviously the yumness, but I'm a bit bored with em.

I'm thinking of picking up Improve Crit and Extend, and using Scimitars instead of Khops (don't want to use rapiers either).

What is the dps loss going from Khop---> Scimitars? Anyone know a rough %?

What would you do?

I think the smartest option would be to go with Extend and Khop, and use MIn2s, but I'm just a little bored with that option...

Discuss.

Cheers!

epochofcrepuscule
05-04-2010, 03:44 AM
definitely extend.

Doesnt matter what you use a weapon. Noone cares as long as you can hold your own.

Rav'n
05-04-2010, 06:50 AM
Agree ... Extend!

The other 2 are a tooss up. I've found I use my Min II's, Vorps and Wounders more often than anything else.... So is Improved Crit needed? On the other hand... Scimitars Crit more than Kopesh do.

Personally... I only have one Build w/ Kopesh.

epochofcrepuscule
05-04-2010, 07:10 AM
I would use the scimis personally. Really its just because I have tons of em and i like em. Khopeshes are boring and everyone has them, therefore making ridiculous low lvl ones expensive. And yes, scimis crit all the time, just like a good set of rapiers...

Noctus
05-04-2010, 08:49 AM
Extend, IC

Eladiun
05-04-2010, 09:07 AM
Same vote... Extend, IC

BoBoDaClown
05-04-2010, 11:11 PM
IC and extend it is!

The route I wanted to go :)

Might gu heavy picks instead of scimmy's - I'm keen cos they're cool, and I saw a favourable damage analysis.

Any comments/experiences?

CHeers for the advise to far :)

epochofcrepuscule
05-05-2010, 02:01 AM
picks are awesome if you dont want to see many crits. Though when you do get them they look pretty :)

BoBoDaClown
05-05-2010, 02:21 AM
picks are awesome if you dont want to see many crits. Though when you do get them they look pretty :)

I just saw some number crunching which put them just ahead of scimmys/raps (not for effects obviously), but below khops.

I might go for them - for the difference factor.

Eladiun
05-05-2010, 09:23 AM
IC and extend it is!

The route I wanted to go :)

Might gu heavy picks instead of scimmy's - I'm keen cos they're cool, and I saw a favourable damage analysis.

Any comments/experiences?

CHeers for the advise to far :)

I've been saving picks for a THF character...but I'm not entirely concerned with min/maxing.

Humperdink
05-05-2010, 03:29 PM
Assuming a Bard with a 30 Strength, Power Attack, +6 seeker damage, +9 song damage, Greater TWF, and dual Mineral II (Holy/Acid Burst/Acid Blast), scimitars are about 10% behind khopeshes in DPS. Here's the list of common weapons ranked in damage output relative to each other. Remember this is for bards, not barbs, fighters, etc.

1. Khopesh
2. Rapier with +2 racial damage
3. Dwarven Axe with +2 racial damage
4. Scimitars
5. Heavy picks

Heavy picks were about 1-2% behind scimitars in this scenario. Keep in mind depending on how your crits are rolling and the HP of the monsters your fighting, heavy picks may result in slightly more Deaths Per Second as you can get higher spike damage with the crits. The above rankings are for sustained DPS over time.

Rav'n
05-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Might want to relook at that list Humperdink. Scimitar w/ Racial Enhancements should be right up there w/ Rapiers.

Humperdink
05-05-2010, 08:07 PM
Ah fudge yeah I forgot about racial enhancements for scimitar. Thanks. Given it has the exact same stats as the rapier it should be tied in performance. That moves it up to about 5-6% behind the khopesh taking into account the +2 racial damage.

BoBoDaClown
05-05-2010, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the list Humperdink.

Since this toon will be human, racial damage isn't a consideration. So, I am right in assuming there is a 1-2% difference between the damage of a pick versus rapier/scimmy?

This I can live with, considering the advantages during auto-crit time.

Cheers for breaking it down

Chai
05-05-2010, 11:22 PM
Extend, and improved crit.

The cookie cutter for khopesh manufacturing is broke. We are trying to repair it. Lightning 2 scimitars are all with it.

BoBoDaClown
05-06-2010, 02:39 AM
Extend, and improved crit.

The cookie cutter for khopesh manufacturing is broke. We are trying to repair it. Lightning 2 scimitars are all with it.

Yeah. Agreed re: Khops. I'm glad I don't have a spare feat - takes the decision away from me.

I think I'll go dual lightening 2 heavy picks. Sounds like fun...

BoBoDaClown
05-06-2010, 03:57 AM
Assuming a Bard with a 30 Strength, Power Attack, +6 seeker damage, +9 song damage, Greater TWF, and dual Mineral II (Holy/Acid Burst/Acid Blast), scimitars are about 10% behind khopeshes in DPS. Here's the list of common weapons ranked in damage output relative to each other. Remember this is for bards, not barbs, fighters, etc.

1. Khopesh
2. Rapier with +2 racial damage
3. Dwarven Axe with +2 racial damage
4. Scimitars
5. Heavy picks

Heavy picks were about 1-2% behind scimitars in this scenario. Keep in mind depending on how your crits are rolling and the HP of the monsters your fighting, heavy picks may result in slightly more Deaths Per Second as you can get higher spike damage with the crits. The above rankings are for sustained DPS over time.

1) What difference does higher str make - does it favour any particular weapon? Or does it benefit them all equally?

2) Does lightening 2 change things, instead of min 2?

I'm particularly interested in heavy picks.

Cheers

Humperdink
05-06-2010, 04:43 AM
1) What difference does higher str make - does it favour any particular weapon? Or does it benefit them all equally?

2) Does lightening 2 change things, instead of min 2?

I'm particularly interested in heavy picks.

Cheers

1)Personally I have never understood why others have said a certain level of strength makes a difference for a weapon. The ratio of DPS between weapons in relation to each other remains constant no matter what the strength value is. Where it starts to change, for example Kensai increases your critical threat range and Frenzied Bezerker increases your critical multiplier. So no, a higher strength will not change the positioning of the weapons in relation to each other. What can change DPS on a practical level is your attack bonus versus the target monster's AC. So you have to consider things like racial attack bonus, divine favor clickies increase your BAB, a higher strength means you can potentially hit more often, whether to turn power attack on or off, etc.

2) No, lightning II's potency is not changed based on weapon type, only the number of times you attack per given time interval. It goes off 2-3% of the time. So the faster you attack and/or the greater number of attacks you gain, the faster it will proc.

3) Scimitars with no racial damage modifier are at about 90% DPS of a khopesh. Heavy Picks are at about 88-89% of khopeshes.

BoBoDaClown
05-06-2010, 04:45 AM
2) No, lightning II's potency is not changed based on weapon type, only the number of times you attack per given time interval. It goes off 2-3% of the time. So the faster you attack and/or the greater number of attacks you gain, the faster it will proc.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean the positions you gave were worked out based on min2s, would their relative positions change a bit if they were lit2s. I guess not.

Cheers for all the info :)

Hjarki
05-06-2010, 05:15 AM
The major difference between weapons is the critical rating. This can be quickly approximated in terms of how much the critical rating changes the average damage of the weapon:

17-20/x3 = .75 + 0.2 * 3 = 1.35
19-20/x4 = .85 + 0.1 * 4 = 1.25
15-20/x2 = .65 + 0.3 * 2 = 1.25
19-20/x3 = .85 + 0.1 * 3 = 1.15
17-20/x2 = .75 + 0.2 * 2 = 1.15
19-20/x3 = .85 + 0.1 * 3 = 1.15
20/x4 = .9 + 0.05 * 4 = 1.1
18-20/x2 = .8 + 0.15 * 2 = 1.1
20/x3 = .9 + 0.05 * 3 = 1.05
19-20/x2 = .85 + 0.1 * 2 = 1.05
20/x2 = .9 + 0.05 * 2 = 1.0

So a Keen Khopesh will deal about 8% more non-alignment/elemental damage due to a criticals than a Keen Rapier, all else being equal. Note that Rapiers have +1 more base damage for Elves, -1 base damage for everyone else. If you're dealing about 20 non-alignment/elemental non-critical damage, then that +1 swing is worth about 5% of your total damage.

If you're an Elf or a Dwarf, spending a feat on Khopesh is probably a bad idea.

Even if you're a Human, Warforged or Halfling, it is often a poor choice because the wider crit range on Scimitar/Rapier is generally more important than the greater raw critical damage on the Khopesh. There are numerous effects (stat draining effects, insta-death effects like Banishing, etc.) that work only on criticals, so having more criticals is more important than a minor boost in damage.

Also, you have to keep in mind that the only reason you're using slashing weapons in the first place is for Vorpal. However, Vorpal effectively changes your critical range since you no longer deal damage on a 20 (you just insta-kill the mob, no matter what the critical range of the weapon is).

That means your Khopesh becomes a 17-19/x3 (1.25) and your Scimitar becomes 15-19/x2 (1.2), reducing the advantage of Khopesh to ~4%.

Rav'n
05-06-2010, 07:56 AM
1)

3) Scimitars with no racial damage modifier are at about 90% DPS of a khopesh. Heavy Picks are at about 88-89% of khopeshes.

Scimitars are a "V" Elf Racial Enh. line.

Eladiun
05-06-2010, 09:27 AM
Another think people fail to take into account is finances...If you have a bank full of Khops or loads of plat go nuts. If you're running a round with garbage Khops isn't going to be better than wielding a good less popular weapon that you can buy at a better price.

Humperdink
05-06-2010, 05:02 PM
Scimitars are a "V" Elf Racial Enh. line.

Ah I see, as I don't have an Elf I can't check that info in the Enhancements. DDO wiki only says +1 to damage, I assume that's correct? No Tier II on that? Regardless, Bobo was asking for weapons for a human in this case which the information I provided in the last post is based upon. The rankings remain the same for a non elf, about 90% of a khopesh for scimitar and 88-89% for a heavy pick.

Rav'n
05-06-2010, 05:52 PM
+2... just like the others. Just keeping the numbers honest. :D

Humperdink
05-06-2010, 08:19 PM
Er so I did have the +2 damage correct then in the first place? Were you just pointing out the +2 was a different label than racial? Or is there some potential confusion going on as signals are getting crossed? The final ranking I gave bobo was based on a Human bard, not an elven.

Rav'n
05-06-2010, 08:37 PM
Ah fudge yeah I forgot about racial enhancements for scimitar. Thanks. Given it has the exact same stats as the rapier it should be tied in performance. That moves it up to about 5-6% behind the khopesh taking into account the +2 racial damage.


My bad... completely missed this post. /blush

Samadhi
05-06-2010, 08:44 PM
I know bards that are successful without extend... but personally I can't stand it. Like literally just can't. I need my crack done proper.

I have a bard that does without imp crit for the same reason... but ya it's not ideal. I would probably just drop the khopesh personally. I mean, how many characters do you really want using them :P

Humperdink
05-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Yeah agreed. I like my haste and displacement too much. I dropped improved critical once I made my dual Mineral IIs.

No problem Rav'n, we all make mistakes. :)

Rav'n
05-06-2010, 09:17 PM
yeah.. but do you have any idea how hard it is for me to admit it... let alone post it....:eek: :D

BoBoDaClown
05-08-2010, 11:23 PM
Thanks guys for taking the time to post - I'll go with a pick and improved crit/extend combo.

Cheers :)