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View Full Version : Nerf Slaying Arrows!



ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:15 PM
Anyone who has been in PvP regularly no doubt knows about the Arcane Archer's imbue slaying arrow ability and how overpowered it is. My suggestion is to make the slaying effect stopped by deathblock. In the description is says the arrows are imbued with the power of finger of death which is blocked by deathblock so why not the arrows as well? The arrows don't lose much of their potency if this change were to occur it just means PvP would be a bit more balanced.

Memnir
05-03-2010, 01:16 PM
No.

Yajerman01
05-03-2010, 01:17 PM
/signed

Moreso becasue of this language then anything else, "...are imbued with the power of finger of death which is blocked by deathblock..."

ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:28 PM
It wouldn't really change the game outside of pvp much either though because there is not a whole lot of things that regularly use deathblock and the ones that do are usually pitifully easy to kill except for bosses. Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

And it's not just in the pvp pits but that is what inspired this post, the simple fact is they should have been like that from the minute they were made. Why don't we just consider finger of death unblockable then?

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 01:28 PM
no.

Delt
05-03-2010, 01:29 PM
Eat something, pick up a shield, learn to dodge/hide the manyshot duration. If you think Slaying imbue is overpowered, you just aren't very good at pvp (and nothing the devs do will ever really fix that).


It wouldn't really change the game outside of pvp much either though because there is not a whole lot of things that regularly use deathblock and the ones that do are usually pitifully easy to kill except for bosses. Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

And you are wrong there too. Grats.

Zombiekenny
05-03-2010, 01:30 PM
It wouldn't really change the game outside of pvp much either though because there is not a whole lot of things that regularly use deathblock and the ones that do are usually pitifully easy to kill except for bosses. Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

Epic
A lot of Amrath
Bosses
No.

cdbd3rd
05-03-2010, 01:32 PM
It wouldn't really change the game outside of pvp much either though because there is not a whole lot of things that regularly use deathblock and the ones that do are usually pitifully easy to kill except for bosses. Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

Can't speak for the others - and stepping around the obvious attempt to bait - I don't have an AA.
My dissent is strictly from the viewpoint that PvP should have never been a part of this game just as it was never a part of D&D - and most of us only put away our pitchforks when it was first suggested because we were assured nothing in game would be affected by it.

Beld
05-03-2010, 01:33 PM
It wouldn't really change the game outside of pvp much either though because there is not a whole lot of things that regularly use deathblock and the ones that do are usually pitifully easy to kill except for bosses. Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

And it's not just in the pvp pits but that is what inspired this post, the simple fact is they should have been like that from the minute they were made. Why don't we just consider finger of death unblockable then?

You obviously haven't been in the high level content, there is a lot of death ward/death block in there and those mobs take a serious beating to bring down, so no, not signed, ranged is gimp enough as is.

Agree with Delt, slaying arrows sound like the least of your worries and this game should never be adjusted for PvP.

xoowak
05-03-2010, 01:34 PM
The game is not intended to be balanced for PvP. It is a PvE game. Arcane Archers are not overpowered in PvE. Therefore they do not need a nerf.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:34 PM
Technically they're stronger then the spell

Even in the PvE if one thinks about it.


Exactly! =D

GhoulsTouch
05-03-2010, 01:35 PM
If the spell can be warded against with deathblock then so must imbdued spell effects. I don't see why such a flaw in the system should not be fixed. There are to be rules, others must abide by them...rangers then also as well lest you negate deathblock entirely from pvp arenas so casters can follow suit.

If you say no to that, then Yes to the OP.

WeaselKing
05-03-2010, 01:38 PM
PvP is not DDO, it is just a little extra thing they added for a diversion. While I would have no problem with Turbine disabling slaying arrows in the PvP pits, as they have done with some spells, any change that would affect slaying arrows in quests should not be taken just because they are very powerful in PvP.

Vallarius
05-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Well, I guess I'm the only arcane archer out there who's going to agree with this...everything in the description of Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows leads you to believe it would be stopped by deathward/deathblock.

"... will deal massive damage to a living target on what would be a vorpal attack ... triggers a lengthy cooldown of the Finger of Death spell. ..."

As you can read, the ability is based off of a vorpal roll (which is stopped by deathward) and draws it's power from Finger of Death (also stopped by deathward). Now, not having experienced being hit with a vorpal weapon I do not know if it is stopped by deathblock items as well, but I've read conflicting statements in the forums about this.

I propose that the slayer attribute should be stopped only by the deathward spell. This way it will still be effective against creatures/bosses that have natural deathblock, and if you find that something has deathward cast on it, just have a caster with you who can dispell it away.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Oy vey if I hadn't even mentioned the pvp pits and just pointed out that they're circumventing the rules I wonder how many naysayers there would be then. Oh and excuse me if I don't measure up to your level of intelligence at the end of a hard day.

And to the person saying that slaying arrows are the only good thing archers have going for them, as I understand it there is only one path that gets imbue slaying arrows and the rest are SOL (Though I admit I could be wrong about this, I'm not a ranger player.)

Thailand_Dan
05-03-2010, 01:45 PM
No.

In a word, "This".

Trillea
05-03-2010, 01:47 PM
My dissent is strictly from the viewpoint that PvP should have never been a part of this game just as it was never a part of D&D - and most of us only put away our pitchforks when it was first suggested because we were assured nothing in game would be affected by it.

Absolutely agreed.

piggiecrdf2
05-03-2010, 01:48 PM
/Not signed.

So turbine gave a rope to the poor ranged guys and now you want to cut their rope? Do you realize how many mobs, named or whatever, have blanket immunities that includes deathblock? So you want an AA walk in epic and get told, "sorry your slaying arrow is completely useless here". This is like telling you to go naked and no buffs to PvP.

DDO wasn't designed for PvP so AA shouldn't get nerfed because of PvP while they're still lagging behind in terms of PvE.

Tyrande
05-03-2010, 01:51 PM
/not signed

If the OP has an arcane archer and plays epic PVE content, he will understand why we said not signed.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 01:52 PM
And to the person saying that slaying arrows are the only good thing archers have going for them, as I understand it there is only one path that gets imbue slaying arrows and the rest are SOL (Though I admit I could be wrong about this, I'm not a ranger player.)

all Arcane Archers can eventually get Slaying Arrows. There are no "paths".

ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:55 PM
Well, in this case should deathward also stop the monk's "Touch of Death"?

I knew this would come up eventually, why shouldn't it be stopped by Deathward? Simple. Nowhere in the description does it mention finger of death or vorpal. It deals massive damage but it's not any kind of death effect.

"Available to Monk class level 9
You strike your opponent down with twisted ki, dealing 500 additional damage."

Yajerman01
05-03-2010, 01:55 PM
"Finger of Death is an instant death effect. Slaying Arrows are not. That's why"

So just playing devils advocate here but if that is the case then I pressume there is a DC check for AA slaying arrows?

I know for the arrows that I buy off the Auction House themselves there is, but I am unaware whether the AA enhacnment is the same, albeit a higher DC.

rezo
05-03-2010, 01:57 PM
Anyone who has been in PvP regularly no doubt knows about the Arcane Archer's imbue slaying arrow ability and how overpowered it is. My suggestion is to make the slaying effect stopped by deathblock. In the description is says the arrows are imbued with the power of finger of death which is blocked by deathblock so why not the arrows as well? The arrows don't lose much of their potency if this change were to occur it just means PvP would be a bit more balanced.

/only if you nerf the DPSing in the game and pvp, it's so................ overpowered too. :eek: :eek:

ClashM
05-03-2010, 01:57 PM
all Arcane Archers can eventually get Slaying Arrows. There are no "paths".

Oh aye? I could have sworn there was something called a Deepwood sniper floating around here somewhere...

Tyrande
05-03-2010, 01:58 PM
"Finger of Death is an instant death effect. Slaying Arrows are not. That's why"

So just playing devils advocate here but if that is the case then I pressume there is a DC check for AA slaying arrows?

I know for the arrows that I buy off the Auction House themselves there is, but I am unaware whether the AA enhacnment is the same, albeit a higher DC.

no DC for slaying arrows. If you hit and rolled a confirm 20, its 500 damage.
No instant kill.

Yajerman01
05-03-2010, 01:59 PM
no DC for slaying arrows. If you hit and rolled a confirm 20, its 500 damage.
No instant kill.


KK ty.

Tyrande
05-03-2010, 02:00 PM
I knew this would come up eventually, why shouldn't it be stopped by Deathward? Simple. Nowhere in the description does it mention finger of death or vorpal. It deals massive damage but it's not any kind of death effect.

"Available to Monk class level 9
You strike your opponent down with twisted ki, dealing 500 additional damage."

They can change the description for the slaying arrows to call strike your opponent down with extreme accuracy, hitting the critical spots and dealing massive 500 additional damage.

It is not an instant death effect like finger of death or vorpal so it doesn't get stopped by deathward.

Tyrande
05-03-2010, 02:01 PM
Oh aye? I could have sworn there was something called a Deepwood sniper floating around here somewhere...

Deepwood sniper is not part of AA PrE.

Vallarius
05-03-2010, 02:01 PM
You mean it's devastating to the point of view that ranged combat should not be nerfed because of the PvP pits from one person with an alleged Arcane Archer who says they agree with you?

Sorry, nice try, but no.

I take offense to that...and based on your previous post, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you haven't played as a ranger very much.

"It would help if you knew what you were talking about here, since all Arcane Archers can eventually get Slaying Arrows. There are no "paths". "

Yes, all Arcane Archers get Slaying Arrows, but not all rangers are Arcane Archers. They have to take the prestige enhancement. What if they want to be a Deepwood Sniper? or a Tempest? They don't get Slaying Arrows...ever. Next time you try to discredit someone, it helps to do a little research.

Delt
05-03-2010, 02:02 PM
"Finger of Death is an instant death effect. Slaying Arrows are not. That's why"

So just playing devils advocate here but if that is the case then I pressume there is a DC check for AA slaying arrows?

I know for the arrows that I buy off the Auction House themselves there is, but I am unaware whether the AA enhacnment is the same, albeit a higher DC.

If you are playing Devils advocate, you are playing wrong. SHEsaid Slaying arrows are NOT an instant death. Sadly, the wording Turbine used is pretty crappy across the board, as it all implies the opposite...all Slaying imbue does is add 500 pierce dmg proc to arrows that roll a 20 and confirm (ie: "vorpal roll", a term that confuses noobs like the OP).

Memnir
05-03-2010, 02:03 PM
Eh, not worth the possible Happy Points.
I'll just continue my stance of "No" and be done with it.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 02:03 PM
"Finger of Death is an instant death effect. Slaying Arrows are not. That's why"

So just playing devils advocate here but if that is the case then I pressume there is a DC check for AA slaying arrows?

I know for the arrows that I buy off the Auction House themselves there is, but I am unaware whether the AA enhacnment is the same, albeit a higher DC.

If you roll 20 with Slaying Arrows Imbued, you just deal an extra 500 damage. There is no DC, and so there is no save.


Oh aye? I could have sworn there was something called a Deepwood sniper floating around here somewhere...

If someone rolls up a Deepwood Sniper right now, either they don't know what they're doing (a new player), so they're unlikely to get to level 18 for the Slaying Arrows anyway, or they're doing it for flavour reasons, in which case they have no business asking for Arcane Archer to be nerfed.

Besides, neither are "paths", they're prestige enhancements, that share exactly the same feat requirements, except Arcane Archer has the additional requirement of Mental Toughness. Not that hard to switch over.

Delacroix21
05-03-2010, 02:05 PM
DDO is not a PvP balanced game, never has been and never will be. PvP exists in DDO as something to do when bored, but really it doesnt belong as there is no class balance etc. at all.


Go into DDO PvP with that understanding... Just have fun in there but honestly dont expect much.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:06 PM
They can change the description for the slaying arrows to call strike your opponent down with extreme accuracy, hitting the critical spots and dealing massive 500 additional damage.

It is not an instant death effect like finger of death or vorpal so it doesn't get stopped by deathward.

Strike with extreme accuracy... then where's the magic effect that this arrow is imbued with? Just up and vanishes because you will it to go away?

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 02:07 PM
I take offense to that...and based on your previous post, I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you haven't played as a ranger very much.

"It would help if you knew what you were talking about here, since all Arcane Archers can eventually get Slaying Arrows. There are no "paths". "

Yes, all Arcane Archers get Slaying Arrows, but not all rangers are Arcane Archers. They have to take the prestige enhancement. What if they want to be a Deepwood Sniper? or a Tempest? They don't get Slaying Arrows...ever. Next time you try to discredit someone, it helps to do a little research.

No one should really be a Deepwood Sniper (topic for another thread though), and if you're a Tempest you're a melee character anyway. Slaying Arrows are an attempt to balance ranged versus melee. Slaying Arrows have nothing to do with Tempest, and bringing up either Deepwoord or Tempest is just non sequiter arguments.


If you are playing Devils advocate, you are playing wrong. He said Slaying arrows are NOT an instant death. Sadly, the wording Turbine used is pretty crappy across the board, as it all implies the opposite...all Slaying imbue does is add 500 pierce dmg proc to arrows that roll a 20 and confirm (ie: "vorpal roll", a term that confuses noobs like the OP).

Thanks Delt, but I'm a she. ;)

Delt
05-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Thanks Delt, but I'm a she. ;)

Silly me for not seeing your femine parts among the subtext... :)

Point taken though -- She Said!

Ethias
05-03-2010, 02:10 PM
doesn't really matter if it's OP in PvP or if the description is deceptive a bit. it says on a roll that would be a vorpal attack, not "A vorpal arrow". It also does not specifically mention instant death, just that it puts finger of death on CD. Deathblock specifically blocks death spells, which this is not. So the description, while a bit misleading, does not lend itself to being covered by Deathblock.

It's not going to change, so... just don't worry about it. :)

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:12 PM
[QUOTE=AylinIsAwesome;2936300]No one should really be a Deepwood Sniper (topic for another thread though), and if you're a Tempest you're a melee character anyway. Slaying Arrows are an attempt to balance ranged versus melee. Slaying Arrows have nothing to do with Tempest, and bringing up either Deepwoord or Tempest is just non sequiter arguments.

So what you're saying is Arcane archers are the only ranged class that exist in the game? I've seen tempest and deepwood snipers in action and if they're played well they can hold their own. Rangers are a class so versatile they can switch between melee and ranged and be decent at either. But yeah... wrong topic. Don't change the subject.

Tyrande
05-03-2010, 02:12 PM
Strike with extreme accuracy... then where's the magic effect that this arrow is imbued with? Just up and vanishes because you will it to go away?

You rolled a 20, and then confirmed the critical. Its a simulation that the archer hit the target critically; and the arrow happened to be imbued with a deadly effect.

Just like you punched a target in the vital organ area with your fist, and you happened to wear spiked gloves.

Don't get hit if you don't want the chance for them to roll a 20 (only 5%), and then confirm the hit. (even lower probability)

Balancing the game for PvP is stupid, IMHO, alot of caster spells are already removed.

I vote for everyone fighting without weapons or armor (or any accessory) in PvP.

Aashrym
05-03-2010, 02:12 PM
not signed

I will continue to not sign threads to change the game to balance for PvP. I would rather see the arcane archer slaying arrow remain as is and balance the issue by removing the PvP.

Cylinwolf
05-03-2010, 02:13 PM
Nowhere in the description does it mention finger of death or vorpal.

Whether or not it mentions vorpal does not matter. Nowhere in the description does it make any claim that Slayer Arrows are vorpal. It says that on what would be a vorpal roll (20 and confirm) that the effect triggers.

Explosive Arrows draw from the Fireball spell, but they are not casting fireball.

Vallarius
05-03-2010, 02:15 PM
doesn't really matter if it's OP in PvP or if the description is deceptive a bit. it says on a roll that would be a vorpal attack, not "A vorpal arrow". It also does not specifically mention instant death, just that it puts finger of death on CD. Deathblock specifically blocks death spells, which this is not.

You are correct, it is not a death spell. It's an arrow, an arrow that happens to be imbued WITH a death spell as declared by the description. So, by this association, deathward would stop the death spell on the arrow, but let the arrow pass through and hit you as normal.

rdasca
05-03-2010, 02:15 PM
/not signed
As other have said, the slaying effect is not "Slaying" it is a critical 500 points of damage, and frankly it is the only reason AAs have any real use in Epic content. Ranger's ranged attack speed has already been nerfed, Rangers to not need further nerfs. Now if you want the Dev to correct the description of slaying arrows then no problem.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:17 PM
Whether or not it mentions vorpal does not matter. Nowhere in the description does it make any claim that Slayer Arrows are vorpal. It says that on what would be a vorpal roll (20 and confirm) that the effect triggers.

Explosive Arrows draw from the Fireball spell, but they are not casting fireball.

Explosive arrows are still blocked by resist energy fire and protection from fire though, as the spell would be. Imbue slaying arrows draws from finger of death and yet has no way to be blocked.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 02:17 PM
No one should really be a Deepwood Sniper (topic for another thread though), and if you're a Tempest you're a melee character anyway. Slaying Arrows are an attempt to balance ranged versus melee. Slaying Arrows have nothing to do with Tempest, and bringing up either Deepwoord or Tempest is just non sequiter arguments.

So what you're saying is Arcane archers are the only ranged class that exist in the game? I've seen tempest and deepwood snipers in action and if they're played well they can hold their own. Rangers are a class so versatile they can switch between melee and ranged and be decent at either. But yeah... wrong topic. Don't change the subject.

You've seen Deepwood Snipers to what level? Eight? Maybe twelve?

Play a bit more, do some raids, get to epics, then see if you still think they should be nerfed.


There is no "ranged class". A few different classes (namely Rangers and Fighters) can spec themselves for ranged by taking Arcane Archer, and that's it. If someone wants to have a good ranged character, that is their only option. They have nothing else, since Deepwood Sniper does absolutely nothing.

Yajerman01
05-03-2010, 02:19 PM
not signed

I will continue to not sign threads to change the game to balance for PvP. I would rather see the arcane archer slaying arrow remain as is and balance the issue by removing the PvP.


I will continue to sign threads simply for the fact that they are disruptive and whether I am correct or not as they have no value or basis in the grand scheme of things.

Turbine does what they want and no amount of forum bantar/signage will change a thing.

As such, I say down with AA all together!

whoot!:D

xoowak
05-03-2010, 02:20 PM
Yes, all Arcane Archers get Slaying Arrows, but not all rangers are Arcane Archers. They have to take the prestige enhancement. What if they want to be a Deepwood Sniper? or a Tempest? They don't get Slaying Arrows...ever.

I'm not really seeing how this is relevant. Are PRE's not supposed to get unique and powerful abilities? If everyone got the same abilities, why bother with PREs:confused:

Tempest is still stronger than AA, if AA is nerfed then it will go back to Tempest being the only valid choice for a ranger.

Bobthesponge
05-03-2010, 02:20 PM
Thanks Delt, but I'm a she. ;)

ALERT! ALERT! OFFICIAL GIRL SIGHTING IN DDO! PLEASE REMAIN CALM AND YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.

(probably for the rest of your life, too. sigh.)

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:22 PM
ALERT! ALERT! OFFICIAL GIRL SIGHTING IN DDO! PLEASE REMAIN CALM AND YOU WILL BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.

(probably for the rest of your life, too. sigh.)

Hey bud you're the only one who freaked on that one. xD

talyor
05-03-2010, 02:24 PM
Oy vey if I hadn't even mentioned the pvp pits and just pointed out that they're circumventing the rules I wonder how many naysayers there would be then. Oh and excuse me if I don't measure up to your level of intelligence at the end of a hard day.

And to the person saying that slaying arrows are the only good thing archers have going for them, as I understand it there is only one path that gets imbue slaying arrows and the rest are SOL (Though I admit I could be wrong about this, I'm not a ranger player.)

The thing is you would never had even opened this thread had you not got shot in PVP and while someone might have opened a thread asking why DW didnt work for MOBS it would have only been a question and not a call to nerf. Most players donot question more damage againsts MOBS particualrly since its on the rare 20 with confirmed crit. a TWF with dual vorpal is more insta-kill than that and higher level MOBS with deathward have way more than 500 hitpoints so once again not an insta-kill arrow. sounds like you were the goliath of the pvp pit and got your feelings hurt when David step into the pit and shot you with his stone (Slaying Arrow).

Cyr
05-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Sigh. Why does it matter. PvP is a sideshow in DDO. Get used to it, it's unlikely to change anytime soon (and that is a good thing because the mechanics for PvE really don't support a PvP environment very well).

Vallarius
05-03-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm not really seeing how this is relevant. Are PRE's not supposed to get unique and powerful abilities? If everyone got the same abilities, why bother with PREs:confused:

Tempest is still stronger than AA, if AA is nerfed then it will go back to Tempest being the only valid choice for a ranger.

That was only meant as a response to AylinIsAwesome claiming there were no "paths" for rangers, it had nothing to do with giving everyone the same abilities.

@AylinIsAwesome: just because you don't think a deepwood sniper is useful, doesn't mean it can't be an effective build. In essence, it is a ranged version of an assassin build rogue, and if played as such can be quite potent.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:28 PM
The thing is you would never had even opened this thread had you not got shot in PVP and while someone might have opened a thread asking why DW didnt work for MOBS it would have only been a question and not a call to nerf. Most players donot question more damage againsts MOBS particualrly since its on the rare 20 with confirmed crit. a TWF with dual vorpal is more insta-kill than that and higher level MOBS with deathward have way more than 500 hitpoints so once again not an insta-kill arrow. sounds like you were the goliath of the pvp pit and got your feelings hurt when David step into the pit and shot you with his stone (Slaying Arrow).

Ah a religious person! In fact I avoid pvp as a rule I just hang around and avoid fights while talking to people. Now this arrow in combination with manyshot and rapid shot I hear can fire up to 80 arrows or possibly more before the duration runs out, how many of those have to be critical hits before someone goes down?

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 02:32 PM
That was only meant as a response to AylinIsAwesome claiming there were no "paths" for rangers, it had nothing to do with giving everyone the same abilities.

"Paths" are not the same as Prestige Enhancements.


@AylinIsAwesome: just because you don't think a deepwood sniper is useful, doesn't mean it can't be an effective build. In essence, it is a ranged version of an assassin build rogue, and if played as such can be quite potent.

Deepwoord Sniper gives +1 to Hide, Move Silently and Spot. Hide and Move Silently are pretty much completely useless, and Spot only has minimal usefulness.

It also gives you a shot on a cooldown, which gives +4 to-hit (useless on non-Epics), and +1 critical range and +1 critical multiplier. So you shoot, and if you roll a 1-17 then the ability did nothing, and you have to wait for it to come off of cooldown again before you can try to use it one more time.

How is that anything like a ranged assassin? Besides maybe the bonuses the Hide and Move Silently, which, as I said, are useless.

Shishizaru
05-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Ah a religious person! In fact I avoid pvp as a rule I just hang around and avoid fights while talking to people. Now this arrow in combination with manyshot and rapid shot I hear can fire up to 80 arrows or possibly more before the duration runs out, how many of those have to be critical hits before someone goes down?

If you avoid PvP as a rule, what do you stand to gain from this nerf? If you don't actually know how effective Manyshot and/or Slayer Arrows are/aren't, what business do you have calling for a nerf?

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:37 PM
What do I have to gain from this nerf? Nothing in particular just as you can see according to the wording this arrow should be stopped by deathward. Perhaps nerf is the wrong word really, an oversight on Turbine's part maybe.

Eladiun
05-03-2010, 02:39 PM
I'm all for Nerf slaying arrows but shouldn't they add Nerf monsters first.

Braegan
05-03-2010, 02:43 PM
I agree the wording of AA Slaying Arrows should be re-phrased for accuracy.

But put simply, the Slaying Arrows do not cause an insta-death effect, so Deathward/Deathblock should not proctect against it.

talyor
05-03-2010, 02:44 PM
What do I have to gain from this nerf? Nothing in particular just as you can see according to the wording this arrow should be stopped by deathward. Perhaps nerf is the wrong word really, an oversight on Turbine's part maybe.

so why cant you accept that the wording is wrong and the arrrows are WAI? the devs did come out and specifically say 500 points of damage on a confirmed crit.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 02:45 PM
What do I have to gain from this nerf? Nothing in particular just as you can see according to the wording this arrow should be stopped by deathward. Perhaps nerf is the wrong word really, an oversight on Turbine's part maybe.

So this is all because you're ****ed about the wording of Slaying Arrows?

Wouldn't you be more ****ed about the wording of the Terror ones then, since those proc Phantasmal Killer, yet the tooltip doesn't even mention this?

And why does a bad tooltip require a nerf of the ability it's a tooltip for anyway?

THOTHdha
05-03-2010, 02:48 PM
The game is not intended to be balanced for PvP. It is a PvE game. Arcane Archers are not overpowered in PvE. Therefore they do not need a nerf.

/agree

ClashM
05-03-2010, 02:49 PM
The wording quite clearly points out that they're imbued with finger of death which is blocked by deathward. The arrows are the ranger's equivalent of that spell.

Artos_Fabril
05-03-2010, 02:51 PM
Ah a religious person! In fact I avoid pvp as a rule I just hang around and avoid fights while talking to people. Now this arrow in combination with manyshot and rapid shot I hear can fire up to 80 arrows or possibly more before the duration runs out, how many of those have to be critical hits before someone goes down?
All of them, if you're talking about high end PvE content, and since we're talking about an ability gained no earlier than level 18 in a PvE game, that's what you should be talking about.

rimble
05-03-2010, 02:54 PM
Get more AC.

Can't?

Rock smashes Scissors.

Missing_Minds
05-03-2010, 02:55 PM
The wording quite clearly points out that they're imbued with finger of death which is blocked by deathward. The arrows are the ranger's equivalent of that spell.

The correct answer is this.


I agree the wording of AA Slaying Arrows should be re-phrased for accuracy.

But put simply, the Slaying Arrows do not cause an insta-death effect, so Deathward/Deathblock should not proctect against it.

Rangers have no such death spell, they have a massive damage spell like effect akin to disintegrate and lightning strike. I have yet to see anyone whine and complain about the MASSIVE number of shroud weapon users in pvp.

Hendrik
05-03-2010, 03:01 PM
If you avoid PvP as a rule, what do you stand to gain from this nerf? If you don't actually know how effective Manyshot and/or Slayer Arrows are/aren't, what business do you have calling for a nerf?


Because he got pwnd in PvP by a Ranger of all classes. Can't wait for him to get pwnd by a Monk in PvP and call for a nerf to Dark Monks or Casters for using Insta-Death Spells.

;)

Hendrik
05-03-2010, 03:03 PM
I am not angry about the tool tip, I don't think they need to be "nerfed" as such just have an effective countermeasure, which I suppose some people may see as a nerf but whatever. And the guy who said all 80+ hits have to be criticals to kill something? You know you're looking at well over 40,000 damage there right? >.>

The effective countermeasure is to;

A. Kill him/her first
B. Don't enter PvP pits.

And since you avoid PvP, you have already chosen B.

No need for any game changes based off PvP.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:05 PM
Because he got pwnd in PvP by a Ranger of all classes. Can't wait for him to get pwnd by a Monk in PvP and call for a nerf to Dark Monks or Casters for using Insta-Death Spells.

;)

Monks you block and their touch of death goes right over your head. Good long recharge on that too. Casters are stopped by death ward and death block. Anything other genius hypothetical situations you want to throw at me? There's no effective countermeasure for slaying arrows which is what I'm suggesting in this thread.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 03:07 PM
Monks you block and their touch of death goes right over your head. Good long recharge on that too. Casters are stopped by death ward and death block. Anything other genius hypothetical situations you want to throw at me? There's no effective countermeasure for slaying arrows which is what I'm suggesting in this thread.

Try hiding behind a pillar for 20 seconds.

Beld
05-03-2010, 03:09 PM
You are correct, it is not a death spell. It's an arrow, an arrow that happens to be imbued WITH a death spell as declared by the description. So, by this association, deathward would stop the death spell on the arrow, but let the arrow pass through and hit you as normal.

It's not imbued with a Death Spell, as this would result in an instant kill, it is imbued with an effect that does 500 points of damage, which for wizard AAs also puts the FoD spell on a long timer, but it is still not a death spell.

The description references several common terms in DDO which newer players may or may not be familiar with, but it does not say, the arrow is a vorpal effect nor does it say the arrow invokes the Finger of Death spell on a successful strike, so your arguments.....again, are moot.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:10 PM
The effective countermeasure is to;

A. Kill him/her first
B. Don't enter PvP pits.

And since you avoid PvP, you have already chosen B.

No need for any game changes based off PvP.

And as I have been pointing out this isn't soley about the pvp, a class that can deal in excess of 10,000 damage before a creature can even touch them sounds kinda overpowered.

Hendrik
05-03-2010, 03:10 PM
Monks you block and their touch of death goes right over your head. Good long recharge on that too. Casters are stopped by death ward and death block. Anything other genius hypothetical situations you want to throw at me? There's no effective countermeasure for slaying arrows which is what I'm suggesting in this thread.

Love to, but your lack of experience in DDO is enough for me as demonstrated in this thread and is rather amusing to boot.


Any other nerfs for things you avoid you care to post next?

Beld
05-03-2010, 03:11 PM
I am not angry about the tool tip, I don't think they need to be "nerfed" as such just have an effective countermeasure, which I suppose some people may see as a nerf but whatever. And the guy who said all 80+ hits have to be criticals to kill something? You know you're looking at well over 40,000 damage there right? >.>

You know end game elite and EPIC mobs have upwards of 1 Million HPs right ??

Hendrik
05-03-2010, 03:12 PM
And as I have been pointing out this isn't soley about the pvp, a class that can deal in excess of 10,000 damage before a creature can even touch them sounds kinda overpowered.


Kinda like Caster huh?

What glorious plans you have in mind for them?

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 03:15 PM
And as I have been pointing out this isn't soley about the pvp, a class that can deal in excess of 10,000 damage before a creature can even touch them sounds kinda overpowered.

10000 damage? Oh really? Let's see, using your number for the total number of arrows fired...


Ah a religious person! In fact I avoid pvp as a rule I just hang around and avoid fights while talking to people. Now this arrow in combination with manyshot and rapid shot I hear can fire up to 80 arrows or possibly more before the duration runs out, how many of those have to be critical hits before someone goes down?

So, 80 arrows each Manyshot? Ok. Since Slaying Arrows only proc on a 20, you'll get 4 20s out of that. Four. 4 x 500 = 2000, not 10000.

Good math skills you have there. ;)

Artos_Fabril
05-03-2010, 03:16 PM
I am not angry about the tool tip, I don't think they need to be "nerfed" as such just have an effective countermeasure, which I suppose some people may see as a nerf but whatever. And the guy who said all 80+ hits have to be criticals to kill something? You know you're looking at well over 40,000 damage there right? >.>
That would kill the Demon Queen, and might kill abbot depending on the damage you got from the arrows themselves, but would barely be a scratch to Harry or Sully.
You're also talking about a 1 in 1.208*10^104 chance to get 80 vorpal strikes in 80 shots, so we're dealing with hyperbole anyway.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:18 PM
Kinda like Caster huh?

What glorious plans you have in mind for them?

Not seen many casters that can deal out 10,000 damage before something can touch them. Casters move slow, they have cool downs, and I see a lot of people brag about their highest hitting spell in their bio which is nowhere near to the damage output of this ability so this is not the case. Casters are where they should be, squishy little arcane artillery. Gotta love em. =)

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:20 PM
That would kill the Demon Queen, and might kill abbot depending on the damage you got from the arrows themselves, but would barely be a scratch to Harry or Sully.
You're also talking about a 1 in 1.208*10^104 chance to get 80 vorpal strikes in 80 shots, so we're dealing with hyperbole anyway.

No 80 vorpal strikes would deal 40,000 from the slaying effect alone then you have the arrow/bow effects, base damage, etc. I quoted 10,000 as being a more plausible outcome.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 03:21 PM
As I said previously I don't consider a countermeasure a nerf but many would argue otherwise as is evident by the vehement response to this thread. Read thoroughly please?

Did you or did you not say this?


Is your life so meaningless that you get all your kicks from throwing weak insults at total strangers over the internet? Back to the topic at hand NERF THE ARROW!

Oh yeah, ya' did. Opps...

Artos_Fabril
05-03-2010, 03:24 PM
And as I have been pointing out this isn't soley about the pvp, a class that can deal in excess of 10,000 damage before a creature can even touch them sounds kinda overpowered.
If you could kite for the entire duration of manyshot, you still are unlikely to do 10,000 damage in that time. If you could, then you could likely to continue to kite until whatever you were fighting was dead, regardless of how many or few shots it took to do so. That thinking is why ranged combat in DDO is in such a sad state as it is, during development there was a fear than ranged characters would be effectively immune to damage from an melee mobs, and many poor decisions were made to limit the effectiveness of ranged combat.

Hendrik
05-03-2010, 03:25 PM
Not seen many casters that can deal out 10,000 damage before something can touch them. Casters move slow, they have cool downs, and I see a lot of people brag about their highest hitting spell in their bio which is nowhere near to the damage output of this ability so this is not the case. Casters are where they should be, squishy little arcane artillery. Gotta love em. =)

So, with your profile turned off we can figure you have a Caster that got his rear handed to him by a Ranger.

You do realize that Manyshot does have a cooldown, right? You do realize Casters can stop a MOB in his tracks and toy with it and it never touches them, right?

Your request for a nerf is flawed from the start and with all due respect, getting more game knowledge and experience will show you this, maybe.

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:26 PM
What do I have to gain from this nerf? Nothing in particular just as you can see according to the wording this arrow should be stopped by deathward. Perhaps nerf is the wrong word really, an oversight on Turbine's part maybe.


I am not angry about the tool tip, I don't think they need to be "nerfed" as such just have an effective countermeasure, which I suppose some people may see as a nerf but whatever. And the guy who said all 80+ hits have to be criticals to kill something? You know you're looking at well over 40,000 damage there right? >.>

Gratz on quoting the wrong message. =)

ClashM
05-03-2010, 03:34 PM
If you could kite for the entire duration of manyshot, you still are unlikely to do 10,000 damage in that time. If you could, then you could likely to continue to kite until whatever you were fighting was dead, regardless of how many or few shots it took to do so. That thinking is why ranged combat in DDO is in such a sad state as it is, during development there was a fear than ranged characters would be effectively immune to damage from an melee mobs, and many poor decisions were made to limit the effectiveness of ranged combat.

Fair enough but let me reiterate my statement. I am not asking for a true nerf just a countermeasure to slightly reduce its power against certain mobs and in the pvp arena. I'm not the only one who believes it is far too overpowered.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 03:39 PM
Fair enough but let me reiterate my statement. I am not asking for a true nerf just a countermeasure to slightly reduce its power against certain mobs and in the pvp arena. I'm not the only one who believes it is far too overpowered.

Your "suggestion" would eliminate it's usefulness on Epics entirely. So NO.

thenalim
05-03-2010, 03:40 PM
There arent many with you though.
It isn't OP in any way. Not even a little bit. If you cant avoid an arrow you are rather bad at moving about, you can't play as if this is bomberman. Also if you cant kill the archer in time, before he rolls that 20 you need to gear up.

Aesop
05-03-2010, 03:43 PM
The wording quite clearly points out that they're imbued with finger of death which is blocked by deathward. The arrows are the ranger's equivalent of that spell.

Point of clarification. What you said here is actually wrong.

Deathblock stops instant Death Effects
Deathward does this as well and also negates damage from Negative Energy spells and effects (like Inflict Wounds)

No where in the description does of Slaying Arrows does it say that the arrows are either Instant Death Effects or Negative Energy Damage. Therefore, neither Deathblock nor Deathward would prevent the damage from Slaying Arrows


Aesop

sirdanile
05-03-2010, 03:43 PM
I'm not the only one who believes it is far too overpowered.

Yeah... No... you're pretty much the only one, do you have a level 18+ ranged character? If not roll one up and then you'll figure out why it shouldn't be nerfed.

Aesop
05-03-2010, 03:57 PM
extra note for clarity.

There are already countermeasures to Slaying Arrows infact there are a few.

1. Move around: If you stand still for the archer to shoot you, you deserve to get creamed

2. Armor Class: Yes the natural 20 means you get hit, but they must also confirm the critical hit for it to proc the Slaying Effect.

3. Miss Chance: Blur and Displacement are the big ones for this.


As mobs have tens of thousands of Hit Points upto and exceeding a million hit points this ability should not be nerfed in anyway.

Also note that certain melee builds can proc more damage in less time than the AA has dreamt of. As it stands Ranged Combat is still sub par with all other forms of Combat. Slaying Arrows bring Ranged Close to the least of the others (Sword and Board) and still Archery lags behind

Aesop

tympist
05-03-2010, 04:01 PM
Truefully if you want balanced pvp go to guildwars where pvp skill's and pve skill's are seperated and different. Frankly ranged is way to low in terms of dps. Theres nothing wrong with having a flat 500 damage bonus for an arrow that requires 15 enchantment points and 3 feat's on a confermed 20 roll crit. Its not game breaking and infact is just the start of what i think ranged need's done to it.

Xionanx
05-03-2010, 04:02 PM
I'd agree to nerfing the 500 damage on a "20" if and only IF it became:

+25 Untyped Damage per arrow that was effected by your bows crit range and multiplier. (So generally it would be 20/x3)

Darkrok
05-03-2010, 04:26 PM
PvP is not DDO, it is just a little extra thing they added for a diversion. While I would have no problem with Turbine disabling slaying arrows in the PvP pits, as they have done with some spells, any change that would affect slaying arrows in quests should not be taken just because they are very powerful in PvP.

This. If slaying arrows are ridiculous in pvp then make them unavailable in pvp. I can't blade barrier there on my favored soul. The reasons may not be the same but it shows that they can implement the mechanic if they need to do so.

BalanceFx
05-03-2010, 05:09 PM
The arrows don't lose much of their potency if this change were to occur it just means PvP would be a bit more balanced.

Wrong.

/Not signed.

PvP should never affect the game. (PvP is not the game)

Talon_Moonshadow
05-03-2010, 05:55 PM
The fact that someone is calling for a nerf to ranged combat delights me to no end. :cool:

I do think that slayer arrows were the wrong way to "fix" ranged combat. So much the wrong way that is upsets me.

As far as changing anything for PvP....yeah....right.
PvP is broke to begin with. extremely broke. And only serves to promote some elitists jerks' egos.

The fact that you are upset by this tells me that you have been used to winning in PvP. And from what I see in the pits, I feel no sympathy for anyone who frequents there.
The pits serve only to let someone beat up on someone else....usually someone a lot lower level.

So many spells do not work in PvP. Several more are so powerful that people have an unwritten rule disallowing their use.

Stealth does not work.

If you want to defend yourself from slayer arrows, I see many possibilities.
Don't get hit. Granted there is no protection from a 20, but from what I hear they have to confirm the crit.
Believe me, all those Str Rgrs out there cannot hit you if you have a high AC.
Just pray you don't actually run into a gimped dex build.

Manyshot is short. Stand behind some cover till it's gone.
Use cover to make him get in close and whack on him when he comes around the object to attack you.

I've seen videos of Barbarians doing a hell of a lot more than 500pts of damage. I don't see what you have to complain about.

Oh! You mean he actually has an advantage by attacking you at a distance?!
Funny I've read scores of forum posts on how gimped ranged combat is....assuring me that there is zero advantage to attacking things from a distance. Somebody must be wrong here I think.

Spells. Low will save Rgrs should be easy for any caster to disable with ease IMO.
or is that Drow Spell Resistance, that every one says is useless too, causing you some problems? :rolleyes:

Holds, Greater Commands..... not to mention Power Word Stun.
Dispels.
Displacement.

Actually I could care less about PvP. And no attempt to nerf anything in the rest of the game should be added to fix PvP IMO.

I would be willing to support a real fix to PvP that allows "all" classes and their abilities a chance to shine and be useful.

But until I see an attempt made from the PvP players to not pick on the lower level guys to show off the size of their greataxes, I have little sympathy for you.

Zippo
05-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

No I think it comes more from people (such as myself) who think PvP was a mistake to add in the first place, and do not think any changes should be made on it's behalf.

Kyrn
05-03-2010, 06:25 PM
Rangers have no such death spell, they have a massive damage spell like effect akin to disintegrate and lightning strike. I have yet to see anyone whine and complain about the MASSIVE number of shroud weapon users in pvp.

Grumblegrumblestupidnonmonkswithgreenstealweaponsg rumble. :p

Artos_Fabril
05-03-2010, 08:19 PM
That would kill the Demon Queen, and might kill abbot depending on the damage you got from the arrows themselves, but would barely be a scratch to Harry or Sully.
You're also talking about a 1 in 1.208*10^104 chance to get 80 vorpal strikes in 80 shots, so we're dealing with hyperbole anyway.No 80 vorpal strikes would deal 40,000 from the slaying effect alone then you have the arrow/bow effects, base damage, etc. I quoted 10,000 as being a more plausible outcome.80 shots should give an average of 4 of each result on a d20, although the way probabilities work you're highly unlikely to actually have that exact result. Let's say you're using a Lightning II Longbow with IC:ranged against a favored enemy, and you're a level 20 ranger with full enhancements, 40 strength, and ram's. (Silver Bow is generally considered better over time, but we want to give you the max DPS benefit of burst effects, and we'll pretend nothing has DR to further favor the max damage, and round in favor of max damage) So:
4x20s = 2000 slayer + 4*(7 holy + 14 blast + 11 burst + 4{3.5} shock + 134{44.5*3} bow crit); total 2680
4x19s = 4*(7 holy + 11 burst + 4{3.5} shock + 134{44.5*3} bow crit); total 616
68x non-crit hits = 68*(7 holy +4{3.5} shock + 45{44.5}; total 3808
4x1s = miss; total 0
2x max damage lightning strikes = 2*650; total 1300
Grand total 8404

Under the same set of assumptions, if all 80 shots were 20s, you'd do a total of ~54900 which still isn't even a scratch to extreme high end or epic raid bosses.

Doxmaster
05-03-2010, 08:36 PM
Know what's funny? The whole time i've been working my way up to 18 ranger, I thought the arrows were imbued with the Disintegrate spell. I mean...500 damage...Finger of death doesnt even DO damage(that is worth noting). But 500 damage is ri-i-i-ight about what a level 20 disintegrate can do (480 max natural damage, without empower or maximize).

Since the turbine is really bad at...well...making videogames, I thought they just said the wrong spell and decided to say "This works too! We meant to do that!"

Disintegrate description:
"A sickly green ray eminates forth, doing 2d6 damage per caster level to the target. Anything reduced to 0 hit points is disintegrated. A successful Fortitide save reduces this damage to 5d6."

It is a level 6 spell. That fits pretty well with the line of AA imbue progression.

Magic missile is level 1.

Melf is level 2.

Fireball level 3.

Fear/force missiles are level 4.

Level 5 spells that arent teleport are trash. L

evel 6 gives you disisntegrate. Level 7 is Finger of death. Level 8 has horrid wilting(mass, lesser Disintegrate)/trap the soul/sunburst/polar ray.

Level 9 has things that truly would be OP on arrows Mordenkainen's Disjunction(or MEGA dispel as most people probably know it)/Meteor (Mega Fireball)/Energy Drain (enervation maximized using DDo's maximize and not the orignal one)/Wail(mass finger of death).

Here is the finger of Death description:
"Slays one living enemy. those that succeed on a fortitude save instead are dealt 3d6 +1 per caster level (max 25) damage."

So...where exactly does the damage come from for AA arrows? You made sure the target succeeded about 10 simultaneous saves verses a chain of finger of deaths spells? Finger of death cant be maximized, so you have to be level 25 to do even that. If you manage to get to level 25 and cast it, and it doesnt kill someone, you wasted a character. However, setting of 15 or so would work...if you could somehow cast that many of them.

An Elf wizard/fighter (non optomized) gish which all elves in DnD seem to be would more easily achieve level 6 spells than level 7 (and getting level 7 spells is hard to do, a feat reserve for dedicated spell casters in DnD).

On the other hand, the Flavor for the arrows has already been said. Going straight from the text, Deathblock SHOULD negate it since it is based on Finger of death. 10 succeeded saves on finger of death at the same time (if you take statistics, you not that the mob must have an awesome fort save, and even then there is still a chance of a natural 1 on their end), but finger of death all the same.

However, if it is based off disintegrate, with a hyped up caster level that would also be hard to achieve (a level 20 guy would simply undo all of reality around you instead of wasting a spell, but if he did cast it, the spell would have natural damage as i stated above. Or you could maximize it through PnP rules and get the damage. Or you could maximize it with DDo rules and get the damage. Or you could empower it with PnP rules and get the damage. or you could Empower it with DD rules and get the damage) it should remain unnerfed. And the Flavor text changed.

Oh...and just incase...in before the lock.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-03-2010, 08:45 PM
Know what's funny? The whole time i've been working my way up to 18 ranger, I thought the arrows were imbued with the Disintegrate spell. I mean...500 damage...Finger of death doesnt even DO damage(that is worth noting). But 500 damage is ri-i-i-ight about what a level 20 disintegrate can do (480 max natural damage, without empower or maximize).

Since the turbine is really bad at...well...making videogames, I thought they just said the wrong spell and decided to say "This works too! We meant to do that!"

Disintegrate description:
"A sickly green ray eminates forth, doing 2d6 damage per caster level to the target. Anything reduced to 0 hit points is disintegrated. A successful Fortitide save reduces this damage to 5d6."

It is a level 6 spell. That fits pretty well with the line of AA imbue progression.

Magic missile is level 1.

Melf is level 2.

Fireball level 3.

Fear/force missiles are level 4.

Level 5 spells that arent teleport are trash. L

evel 6 gives you disisntegrate. Level 7 is Finger of death. Level 8 has horrid wilting(mass, lesser Disintegrate)/trap the soul/sunburst/polar ray.

Level 9 has things that truly would be OP on arrows Mordenkainen's Disjunction(or MEGA dispel as most people probably know it)/Meteor (Mega Fireball)/Energy Drain (enervation maximized using DDo's maximize and not the orignal one)/Wail(mass finger of death).

Here is the finger of Death description:
"Slays one living enemy. those that succeed on a fortitude save instead are dealt 3d6 +1 per caster level (max 25) damage."

So...where exactly does the damage come from for AA arrows? You made sure the target succeeded about 10 simultaneous saves verses a chain of finger of deaths spells? Finger of death cant be maximized, so you have to be level 25 to do even that. If you manage to get to level 25 and cast it, and it doesnt kill someone, you wasted a character. However, setting of 15 or so would work...if you could somehow cast that many of them.

An Elf wizard/fighter (non optomized) gish which all elves in DnD seem to be would more easily achieve level 6 spells than level 7 (and getting level 7 spells is hard to do, a feat reserve for dedicated spell casters in DnD).

On the other hand, the Flavor for the arrows has already been said. Going straight from the text, Deathblock SHOULD negate it since it is based on Finger of death. 10 succeeded saves on finger of death at the same time (if you take statistics, you not that the mob must have an awesome fort save, and even then there is still a chance of a natural 1 on their end), but finger of death all the same.

However, if it is based off disintegrate, with a hyped up caster level that would also be hard to achieve (a level 20 guy would simply undo all of reality around you instead of wasting a spell, but if he did cast it, the spell would have natural damage as i stated above. Or you could maximize it through PnP rules and get the damage. Or you could maximize it with DDo rules and get the damage. Or you could empower it with PnP rules and get the damage. or you could Empower it with DD rules and get the damage) it should remain unnerfed. And the Flavor text changed.

Oh...and just incase...in before the lock.

What I think really happened was one Dev came up with Slayer arrow concept that originally was a FoD effect. Ya know, actually "slay" something with an arrow?!

Then the ranged hater bosses came along and said: "what?! We can't let ranged guys actually kill something with an arrow! lets just make it do a bunch of damage instead....not like 500 HP is much by the time they get it anyway." :cool:

Missing_Minds
05-03-2010, 09:00 PM
What I think really happened was one Dev came up with Slayer arrow concept that originally was a FoD effect. Ya know, actually "slay" something with an arrow?!

Then the ranged hater bosses came along and said: "what?! We can't let ranged guys actually kill something with an arrow! lets just make it do a bunch of damage instead....not like 500 HP is much by the time they get it anyway." :cool:

Or how about they took the actual idea, but realized the video game would make it worthless so they modified it to still be effective after a fashion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm#arrowofDeath

Noir
05-03-2010, 09:01 PM
/not signed.

No way no how should PVP ever be the basis for any game changes in DDO. It isn't a PVP game and was never meant to be one. PVP is a past time that you dabble in between quests.

GeneralDiomedes
05-03-2010, 09:01 PM
Nerf slaying arrows? Have they added nerf monsters to the game??

Doxmaster
05-03-2010, 09:03 PM
Nerf slaying arrows? Have they added nerf monsters to the game??

Didnt someone say that like...4 pages back?

GeneralDiomedes
05-03-2010, 09:04 PM
Didnt someone say that like...4 pages back?

I knew it was too easy, I took a chance. Didn't want to read the whole thread.

Talon_Moonshadow
05-03-2010, 09:14 PM
Or how about they took the actual idea, but realized the video game would make it worthless so they modified it to still be effective after a fashion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm#arrowofDeath

Well, my real opinion is still in flux...awaiting Deepwoods Sniper II, III. to see if they will actually give a ranged insta kill attack in this game. (other than to Rogues)

While I admire the boost to DPS that AAs got, at the highest levels, I think it was the wrong way to go for ranged combat.

They should have sped it up for everyone first. Then decided how to boost AAs. etc.

even though few players have come around to respecting AAs yet, now we are in a situation where if they make an across the board ranged speed change, it really could create an overpowered AA.

Some people claim that ranged and melee are incompatible combat styles. While I disagree, I do see problems when you mix the two.
Way before AA, I was already scared to use Manyshot in certain raids for fear of drawing boss agro. I can only imagine the problems that the best AAs are having now.

Sad that they give a class(style) and big boost, but one that they cannot use when they want DPS respect the most. :(

Paragon
05-03-2010, 09:29 PM
I know, lets nerf the Epic SoS as well.:D It crits for well over 500 MUCH more often than only on a confirmed nat 20. And, look at its description:

"This great sword was forged inside the Vault of Night itself. The essense of Shadow has seeped into the sword, granting it exceptional death-dealing abilities."

Sounds like a death effect, doesn't it? Maybe deathblock should block those crits, too!:D

Pwesiela
05-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Didn't read through the responses, like I normally do, but here's my 2cp:

Blocking it in PvP may or may not be a good idea. I think the notion has merit. That having been said, PvP would become a death-by-multishot-force-burst-imbuing rangefest.

Changing it universally so that it applies in PvE is not a good idea. Period. Archers are so far behind that any boost is positive. Preventing slayer damage due to deathward or other such effects (Tor, ToD, any and all epic where dps is required as the mobs are all insta-immune from death, etc.) is an extremely bad idea and only acts as further disincentive to play a ranged type, which already has enough problems.

Edit: Oh, and PvP is a joke.

Pwesiela
05-03-2010, 09:58 PM
The wording quite clearly points out that they're imbued with finger of death which is blocked by deathward. The arrows are the ranger's equivalent of that spell.

They are not the equivelent. Otherwise, each arrow would be imbued with the FoD spell, which would have a save or die effect. Were the arrow to have that effect, I could probably be convinced to agree that deathward should affect it (anyone know about DW and the fearsome arrows?). But it is not the spell. It is a separate ability.

Sadiagraxa
05-12-2010, 03:13 PM
/Not signed

DiAGO77
05-12-2010, 03:21 PM
/not signed

If the OP has an arcane archer and plays epic PVE content, he will understand why we said not signed.

Thankyou for saying this , I hope they never try to balanace a , mainly PvE game , because of PvP issues .

Clemeit
10-22-2011, 05:16 PM
No

They are NOT overpowered in quests. Range fighting is already the least DPS fighting in the game, why nerf it more?
NOTHING should be changed what-so-ever about DDO just to blanace PVP. Period.

Hobgoblin
10-22-2011, 05:21 PM
did we really really really need to necro this particular topic?

i thought it was discussed to all possible ends 18 months ago....

hob

gloopygloop
10-22-2011, 05:29 PM
No

They are NOT overpowered in quests. Range fighting is already the least DPS fighting in the game, why nerf it more?
NOTHING should be changed what-so-ever about DDO just to blanace PVP. Period.

My birthday present from last year was that no one posted in this thread after my birthday.

YOU STOLE MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT.

Bodic
10-22-2011, 05:31 PM
no

they are not overpowered in quests. Range fighting is already the least dps fighting in the game, why nerf it more?
Nothing should be changed what-so-ever about ddo just to blanace pvp. Period.


bad necro bad.

Meretrix
10-22-2011, 05:38 PM
I'll sign this, 1000 times. Slaying arrows are stupid silly.

Yan_PL
10-24-2011, 12:18 PM
Can't speak for the others - and stepping around the obvious attempt to bait - I don't have an AA.
My dissent is strictly from the viewpoint that PvP should have never been a part of this game just as it was never a part of D&D - and most of us only put away our pitchforks when it was first suggested because we were assured nothing in game would be affected by it.

you played D&D completely other way I did. heh.

Truga
10-24-2011, 12:23 PM
you played D&D completely other way I did. heh.

How is that possible? I thought there was only one way to play D&D! :D

Yan_PL
10-24-2011, 12:30 PM
How is that possible? I thought there was only one way to play D&D! :D
yes, and that way is to kill monsters who annoy/attack/whatever/threaten you. And some of them, apparently, were player characters.

Vanquishedfo
10-24-2011, 12:31 PM
If the spell can be warded against with deathblock then so must imbdued spell effects. I don't see why such a flaw in the system should not be fixed. There are to be rules, others must abide by them...rangers then also as well lest you negate deathblock entirely from pvp arenas so casters can follow suit.

If you say no to that, then Yes to the OP.

nope because you dont understand that because the imbument is in the arrow which has to strike its bypassing the protection of the deathward. this is very true in pnp with a number of special classes who can imbue spells within martial attacks. you add in the challenge of having to make a succesful to hit roll and gain the advantage of by passing certain protections like SR or reflex saves. after all you must agree that if for example i had a lightning bolt imbued into my sword and ive already put it through your chest your not going to tumble out of the way of the lightning erupting from it.

fuzzy1guy
10-24-2011, 12:33 PM
Seems like it would be way easier just to change the text on the slaying arrows to something you can't complain about.


"This arrow does a bunch of damage that can't be blocked"


Easy. Done. lol

Vanquishedfo
10-24-2011, 12:39 PM
On a side note I am for pvp being developed and do feel changes inside pvp zones would have to occur especially with pve aquired gear. Anything beyond the mundane +10 cap should cease to work in pvp i.e epic gear and a number of named items with ridiculous amounts of power for thier level range. I dont want to see any changes made in pvp brought over to pve however.

Also PVP is actually the CORE of PNP play. as its always about thinking players vs a thinking dm player. DMs like myself are still playing the game you grasp taht right? we just have an army of monsters and special borderline god mode characters at our disposal and the added responsibility of narrating the tale and keeping everyone feeling like its a fun fair game.

Its always PvP in the same sense that its aobut two real time thinkers against one another. That btw is the main thing that attracts alot of MMO players to pvp the added CHALLENGE of fighting foes as well equipped and made as ourselves being played as well as ourselves.

The main issue in DDO pvp lays within the gear imbalance plain and simple. When items like heavy fort for example are common by lvl 9 what is a rogue or crit master suppose to do. What is a caster speccing in neg energy to do with a many life TR who has certain items meant to be one per character are not 6 or 12 or even 18 in the case of the x3 completionists granting outright immunity to neg energy spells.

And although you hate on slaying, what about pale masters against disruptors, war forged against smiters. yorpal in general?

Clemeit
11-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Seems like it would be way easier just to change the text on the slaying arrows to something you can't complain about.


"This arrow does a bunch of damage that can't be blocked"


Easy. Done. lol

Excellent solution. Kinda like disintegrate if I'm not mistaken. Untyped damage.

MsEricka
11-05-2011, 02:01 PM
Anyone who has been in PvP regularly no doubt knows about the Arcane Archer's imbue slaying arrow ability and how overpowered it is. My suggestion is to make the slaying effect stopped by deathblock. In the description is says the arrows are imbued with the power of finger of death which is blocked by deathblock so why not the arrows as well? The arrows don't lose much of their potency if this change were to occur it just means PvP would be a bit more balanced.

Davie is that you?

Clemeit
11-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Also I feel a lot of dissent is probably coming from arcane archers who don't want to lose their easy kill button. >.>

Yea, cause FoD isn't an easy kill button. Nor is wail of the banshee. Or implosion. Or PWK. Or Destruction. Nor Slay Living. Nor is a stack of dots. Nor PWS + Melee wailing on it. Nor any other stun on failed save.

Orratti
11-13-2011, 03:04 PM
Well you could ask for adding the spells protection from normal missiles and protection from magical missiles. That would improve everyone's games not just yours. Having the shield spell prevent all missles and not just magic missile would work as well.

Not much is useful for killing casters/devines in pvp let's remove all that is. Besides when you boil it all down to the basics pvp is no more than a collection of cheap tricks used to kill those who are unable to defend against it. One guy's slayer arrow is another guys irresistable dance, another guy's stun, another guy's trip. I pvped along time ago and I found my joy in it to be reaching a point where no one was willing to try their cheap tricks on me for fear of the consequences. Most people though just like killing people who don't stand much of a chance and should they get taught a lesson by someone who they can't overcome then come to the boards and try to get a nerf. Let's not remove the teacher's tools.

R0cksteady
11-13-2011, 04:39 PM
If it's blocked by deathblock, they should be instant kill arrows.

Ausdoerrt
11-13-2011, 06:18 PM
Seems like it would be way easier just to change the text on the slaying arrows to something you can't complain about.


"This arrow does a bunch of damage that can't be blocked"


Easy. Done. lol

Or people could stop whining about it. Explosive arrows put a cooldown on the fireball spell, but they don't cast fireball on impact. There's no reason why Slaying arrows should be completely equivalent to the Finger either.

Talias006
11-13-2011, 06:57 PM
I had a thought about how to deal with the majority of these people screaming/crying for nerf (insert desire here), but it probably wouldn't be well received.
Remove PvP altogether.
Problem solved!

And to those people who think that PvP is part of the game because the DM has a bunch of "characters" they throw at the party of gamers, IMO that's a delusion.
Sure, the DM gets to put life into some key characters, but he doesn't work to level them up like his party does.
They're instantly at whatever level he/she needs them to be for challenge purposes.

Also, there's a simplistic way to show this point.
The party is made up of PCs as in Player Characters.
The DM has them interact/combat NPCs, Non-Player Characters.
See the difference yet?

Doxmaster
11-14-2011, 10:34 AM
As I've said before, the arrows seem to actually be imbued with the Disintegrate spell, not FoD. The FoD reference is a throwback to Pen and Paper.

I purpose the Devs correct this, renaming them "annihilating arrows" or something along those lines.

Luis_Velderve
11-14-2011, 11:20 AM
I do not care about OP argument, simply

/not signed no way

youdonut
11-14-2011, 11:36 AM
/not signed

you want pvp go play some modern warfare or cod 4 not dungeons and dragons

ferrite
11-14-2011, 11:48 AM
/not signed

Varashad
11-14-2011, 01:02 PM
The game is not intended to be balanced for PvP. It is a PvE game. Arcane Archers are not overpowered in PvE. Therefore they do not need a nerf.

This

R0cksteady
11-14-2011, 03:47 PM
To be fair, it's not balanced for PvP, but it's FAR from balanced for PVE too.

gloopygloop
11-14-2011, 03:57 PM
To be fair, it's not balanced for PvP, but it's FAR from balanced for PVE too.

This is true. Slaying arrows need to be made much stronger than they currently are if ranged DPS is going to get even remotely close to melee DPS in most situations.

Elixxer
11-14-2011, 04:10 PM
This thread is a joke right?

bebeosita
11-14-2011, 08:36 PM
/signed

death effects should be blocked with dw/db

Talias006
11-16-2011, 07:44 AM
/signed

death effects should be blocked with dw/db

Except for the descriptor on the Slayer arrows enhancement only mentions death at the very end, and only because it causes a lengthy cool-down of FoD.

The ability Slayer itself only says that it does massive damage to the targets on a vorpal effect, which is different from a true vorpal strike.

In my reasoning there are two parts that I see as potentially confusing about the Slayer arrows:

1) the mention of FoD. If the arrows are directly given the power from this spell, then there should be a modified DC check mentioned when the arrows hit any targets. This isn't the case, since it would instantly kill a mob struck by an arrow if it failed a save. If it made the save, it would still lose a hefty chunk of its' health.

2) the mention of Vorpal type effects. True Vorpal strikes (as per the Vorpal ability) are when a confirmed hit after a 20 either kills the target outright, or does 100 damage if the target has too many hit points still. Vorpal "effects" use the mechanics of a confirmed critical after a natural 20 as the basis for whatever other ability they add as the end result. This is the ability they mimic, but it does not say it will outright kill a struck target, just does massive damage.

I can understand the dilemma, but can't justify signing it because it's just not accurate in asking for an ability that does not "kill" any PvE target outright to be stopped by Deathward/-block, just because that same damage can indeed kill a PC in PvP.
Even using the theory that it's a death effect and needs to be balanced in PvE is wrong, IMO, since it isn't a death effect.

Eltronin
11-20-2011, 08:52 AM
The thing is you would never had even opened this thread had you not got shot in PVP and while someone might have opened a thread asking why DW didnt work for MOBS it would have only been a question and not a call to nerf. Most players donot question more damage againsts MOBS particualrly since its on the rare 20 with confirmed crit. a TWF with dual vorpal is more insta-kill than that and higher level MOBS with deathward have way more than 500 hitpoints so once again not an insta-kill arrow. sounds like you were the goliath of the pvp pit and got your feelings hurt when David step into the pit and shot you with his stone (Slaying Arrow).

I agree. You lost in PvP and now you want a way to compensate for your lack of equipment/ability in a PvP area. If you would have researched the enhancement more and watched how you were hit you would have seen it was an addtitonal 500pts of damage.