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fatherpirate
05-03-2010, 05:54 AM
I plan to use this thread to list and suggest the implimentation of certian missing 3.5 spells.
I have changed some of them to fit the game mechnics and will skip over others that are not useable
in the DDO enviroment.

I will alternate from mage/sorc, cleric/FS, Rng, Pal, Bard spells and will not double post if
a spell is shared by multiple classes...they will just be put in once.

To start it off.

MAGE / SORC LVL 1

Color Spray

wizard (1) sorceror (1)
components V,S,M
casting time 1
Rng 15 ft
Area cone
Save Will neg.
Spell resistance Yes

Effect, a vivid cone of colors shoot forward, similar in appearance to a hypnotic patterns, but cone shaped.

Creatures caught in it are effected as follows
2 HD or less knocked out 2D4 rnds if fail save
3-4 HD stunned 1D4 rnds if fail save
5+ HD stunned 1 rnd if fail save

uneffected - jellies, undead, elementals, constructs

Spell is similar to hypnotism except that it is a close rng cone attack that does not require
a target to be thrown.

Reason it should be added: give mages more flexability in personal defense at low level.

will add another spell tommorrow.

Here it is the next 'LOST' spell

BLESS WATER

CLERIC 1/ PAL 4

components V,S,M
casting time 1
Rng touch
Changes 1 vial of pure water into holy water
Save Will N/A
Spell resistance no

This spell is similar to fire arrow in that it creates useful ammo in a dungeon,
any unused holy water 'evaporates' when you leave the dungeon.

It would work like this, you have a vial of pure water (collectable item) and in the dungeon
you throw this spell and it consumes 1 vial of pure water and gives you 1 vial of holy water.

this thrown weapon has a range of 10 ft
it does 2D4 damage (non-resistable) to undead and evil outsiders with a small chance
of splashing 1D4 damage to undead next to the target.
The holy water is used up on use, and generates a lot of hate.

Given the functionality of the fire arrow spell, this 'LOST' original 3.5 rules spell should be brought into the game.

ok....what is coming up next time?

Here is a clue.....where are you going?

RNG 4 / DRUID LVL 1 (yes, I know druids are not in game yet)

Entangle

druid (1) ranger (4)
components V,S,M
casting time 1
Rng standard (same as fireball ect.)
Area standard (same as other AE effects)
Save reflex neg. root effect
Spell resistance Yes

ok, this spell needs to be altered from the PnP version or it would be
over powered for DDO.

My best guess:
Duration 12 sec + 6 sec for each lvl past 1st (4th for rangers)
each rnd an enemy in the area must make a reflex save or be rooted in place,
even if they make thier save, they are reduced to half speed. not useable in PvP.

The visual effect of the spell is that leg lvl vines spring up in the area
and twist around attempting to grab at the legs of your enemy.

next up....a few 2nd lvl spells.

fatherpirate
05-03-2010, 05:55 AM
It has been brought up ..why bring these new spells in the game?
They are not new, they are spells from the original 3.5 rules the game is based off of.
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If has also been said .... well thats DDO..it is different from D+D 3.5
ah...no, DDO > IS < the MMO version of D+D 3.5, and that is most likely locked in the licence agreement. (best guess)
************************************************** ********
Also, why talk about low lvl spells when <pick a level> needs more help.....these are spells in the original
D+D 3.5 and I decided to start at the bottom and work up...we can get to the higher lvl spells in due time.
************************************************** ********
Will I be just listing off all lost spells? no
Some spells just would not work in DDO......Like speak to animals, read magic, detect alignment ect..
other spells just would create to much headache to implement...like time stop.
************************************************** ********
I am sure the developers left out the spells for one reason or another, however...this is a good long time later and the game
has changed and grown and I think it is time that some of these spells get another chance to be in the game.
************************************************** ********
Why bring this up when they need to fix (fill in current spell) ?
ok, some current spells could use some love, but this thread is not here to address that, there are several
other threads dealing with broken spells.

Chaosprism
05-03-2010, 06:12 AM
Only problem I see, is that HD limitation which affects SLEEP, CAUSE FEAR, DAZE MONSTER, CIRCLE of DEATH, UNDEATH to DEATH, will also be affecting this.

Though there is at least an effect on creatures OVER the HD. (unlike the other ones)


The unusual thing is , hypnotism as described in the original rules has a HD limitation also but was removed when implemented, but kept in for SLEEP and DEEP SLUMBER and those other spells.

SLEEP etc need to be rewritten, even away from the rules so that they are usable but dont override the usage of hypnotism etc..


My suggestion for sleep is to roll 3d10. And put that may HD of creatures asleep so it can be very good or very bad, and you can keep casting it till it puts them all asleep.

Deep slumber maybe 3d20.

The other option is to make those that make their save temporarily exhausted (deep slumber) (minute or so) or fatigued (for sleep spel) even if they make their save. (much like 4th edition sleep does)

fatherpirate
05-03-2010, 07:56 AM
the HD limitation on this spell (color spray) {if they give it one} will not be a big problem...
it is a 1st lvl spell used by low lvl casters..if your facing down 6HD things, you should be using more powerful spells.
or running away..fast :-P

HD limitation seems to be a product of play balance..but if that is required, it is a small price to
pay to bring back

Another lost 3.5 rules spell.

see you tommorrow with a lost clerical/FS spell....I will give you a hint.

Got Holy Water?

Lorz
05-03-2010, 08:13 AM
Seems some here are under the impression this is DnD v3.5.


Sorry it is DDO....very similar but not the same.


Welcome to the game.

sephiroth1084
05-03-2010, 08:15 AM
Even monsters in Korthos and the Harbor tend to have between 2 and 8 HD depending on difficulty and monster type, meaning that this spell would often be useless or close to it. Some people may use Sleep, but I've never bothered. There are enough other worthwhile spells that function almost irrespective of the monster's type or difficulty that grabbing such limited spells is often pointless.

It's kind of sad, but that's the path DDO has taken.

Besides, we have a lot of tools in our first 7 levels of spells. It's 8 and 9 that really need work.

dunklezhan
05-03-2010, 09:00 AM
Re HD limitations - I think all the spells currently using HD as a mechanics in DDO need a boost to be practical. Either a straight boost, or to be changed somehow to allow Heighten to affect the HD total as well as the DC.

I favour the latter, but the trick would be to work out how much the Heighten feat should affect the HD total.

E.g. as a baseline, Deep Slumber is a L3 spell (L5 caster if a wizard), affecting up to 10HD. Sleep is a L1 spell (L1 caster) affecting 4HD. Assuming (and this is a big assumption, I've never used either spell) that 10HD is effective against the mobs you're likely to face as a L5 caster, then the growth in HD affected could be 3HD per caster level.

So you could cast a HD affecting spell with Heighten on, the DC goes up as normal, and the HD affected goes up by 3HD per caster level over the base caster level required for the spell. Deep slumber no longer needs to be on the spell list at all, because you just cast Sleep with Heighten for the same effect.

The question then becomes: how balanced is this at high levels? What's the rough HD of a L20 monster, because if you took 3HD per level with heighten any end game mob with less than about 60HD is in big trouble from these kinds of spell.

I have no idea what the high level HD are: Is 60HD way too much, or way too low? It would drop to approx 40HD for 2HD per caster level, and approx 20HD for 1HD per level. Again, too high or too low? I have no idea, but I would think one of these ranges is probably about right, just needs an appropriate one choosing.

All this is just me musing, with no end game experience to draw on. However its fairly clear I think that without some kind of improvement to affected HD via Heighten or just a general boost, any such spell is pretty much doomed to failure at the moment. You'd use it early on, then never again. Whereas flaming hands, acid spray, Shield, Charm Person etc are useful right up to the mid levels with the right metamagics available. There are better options available, but these still remain viable choices, is what I'm saying. The same could not I think be said for Colour Spray as outlined, or even Sleep/Deep Slumber which already exist.

Aashrym
05-03-2010, 09:09 AM
I think if color spray just added a small cone 6 second stun with a nice casting speed it would be useful, which is what it does do on 5HD+ creatures.

Chaosprism
05-03-2010, 10:05 AM
On elite, harbour quests stop pretty much all those level 1 spells working, you have level 6 shaman, outside the level 1-5 range.


My point is and I said above, hypnotism was changed.. heightened it can work on level 20 creatures at the moment.

Why shouldnt sleep?, sure a lot of things are immune to sleep up at end game that's fine. But I SHOULD be able to heighten a sleep and put a gianthold troll asleep.

What sleep does, deep slumber would do better given it's a level 3 vs a level 1 spell. It should either have a much wider effect range, put them asleep longer or affect more targets.



The other way to make limited HD spells work, is how colourspray is worded itself.. If a target is > X hd.. do something small. Colour spray stuns creatures above the level for a short duration.

SLEEP: roll 2d4 .Creatures in the area of effect that are beyond the sleep effect are fatigued for 20 seconds instead
DEEP SLUMBER: roll 4d4 HD of creatures: above that HD are exhausted for 6 seconds (which then becomes fatigued for 6 seconds)
CAUSE FEAR: creature >5 hd.. shaken for the spell duration (like doom)
SCARE: creature >5hd .. Shaken for the spell duration (like doom)
DAZE MONSTER: >6hd creature is stunned for 3 seconds only
UNDEATH to DEATH: remove 9hd limitation : instead HD is limited by caster level (so you can only affect things weaker than you)
CIRCLE of DEATH (same as undeath to death)



Also keep in mind maximise, empower etc were MEANT to affect the numbers in this spell, where as in DDO , they only affect damage values. So in pnp an empowered sleep would have affected 2d4 + 50% of that value in HD. ( in pnp, maximise caused the dice rolls to yield maximum, so sleep would AFFECT 8HD of creatures with no roll)


I dont like seeing spells in the game useless, especially useless at the level you get the thing.

Angelus_dead
05-03-2010, 10:15 AM
it is a 1st lvl spell used by low lvl casters
That objective is a fail.

The goal should not be to create spells that only have hypothetical use at low level.

Cylinwolf
05-03-2010, 11:31 AM
it is a 1st lvl spell used by low lvl casters..if your facing down 6HD things, you should be using more powerful spells.
or running away..fast :-P

In addition to what A_D said, I beg to differ. Color Spray remains useful for a long time because, if the enemy fails the save, it remains a one round buffer zone for you to prepare a different spell while giving your party a chance to get between it and you.

Henrieta
05-03-2010, 11:48 AM
Circle of death is useful on the gnolls in the desert, in quests like chains of flames.

New spells like color spray should certainly be added to this game. HD/hp limitations should be altered to affect monsters in higher level quests.

I am particularly very disappointed in the Power word spells.

Are these drawbacks ever going to be addressed? Probably not, since we have been asking for changes since 2006.

fatherpirate
05-04-2010, 05:33 PM
new spell has been added, check OP.

Cylinwolf
05-04-2010, 07:32 PM
If has also been said .... well thats DDO..it is different from D+D 3.5
ah...no, DDO > IS < the MMO version of D+D 3.5, and that is most likely locked in the licence agreement. (best guess)


Oh I'm sorry, I forgot we were playing cut and paste 3.5. Excuse me, I was apparently lost busy maintaining my spellpoint pool while I blasted enemies for immensely small fractions of their health with my 5000+ spell crits because I can't just use my other spells because they're blanket immune to them. At the same time I'm dragging monsters through my acid-damage dealing cloudkill while spamming ray spells with no ranged touch attack, and ignoring spell resistance checks for all my damage spells (and healing spells, too). My melee companions are also scoring constant grazing hits and glancing blows off our 500+ enemies swarming at once, while my rogue never came into the instanced dungeon because he was busy spending his points on enhancements. Our barbarian is spamming cleave wildly because it's an action-attack instead of a free hit on another enemy if you score the killing blow. Our cleric would be joining us but he's busy having his hireling ressurect at a ressurection shrine while he recovers his daily abilities in 10 seconds at a rest shrine. When he's done with that, he'll come roaring back into the fight to pick up our dead bard with a flick of a Raise Dead, and that bard will be back no worse for wear and his full CON score. When we meet a bit of a problem, we'll all run away, and even our dwarves and halflings will be able to keep up because there's no land speed differences between them and other sized races.

Oh, and darkvision doesn't do anything.

CLEARLY Turbine has their hands tied and is completely tied to the D&D 3.5 license and nothing they'll ever be able to do will let them escape from that.

Oh, and by the way, he's a few more (http://ddowiki.com/page/PnP_differences).



Also, why talk about low lvl spells when <pick a level> needs more help.....these are spells in the original
D+D 3.5 and I decided to start at the bottom and work up...we can get to the higher lvl spells in due time.


If you're responding to A_D's comment, it wasn't about "not adding low level spells," he was criticizing you for suggesting a spell in a form that would only matter at low levels.

Web, a second level spell, is useful when you get it. It is also useful in level 20 content. Use that as an idea to design with.


EDIT: Also, you don't have to hold back and "keep people guessing what spell you're gonna suggest next." This is a suggestions board. People don't care.

sirdanile
05-04-2010, 07:39 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I forgot we were playing cut and paste 3.5. Excuse me, I was apparently lost busy maintaining my spellpoint pool while I blasted enemies for immensely small fractions of their health with my 5000+ spell crits because I can't just use my other spells because they're blanket immune to them. At the same time I'm dragging monsters through my acid-damage dealing cloudkill while spamming ray spells with no ranged touch attack, and ignoring spell resistance checks for all my damage spells (and healing spells, too). My melee companions are also scoring constant grazing hits and glancing blows off our 500+ enemies swarming at once, while my rogue never came into the instanced dungeon because he was busy spending his points on enhancements. Our barbarian is spamming cleave wildly because it's an action-attack instead of a free hit on another enemy if you score the killing blow. Our cleric would be joining us but he's busy having his hireling ressurect at a ressurection shrine while he recovers his daily abilities in 10 seconds at a rest shrine. When he's done with that, he'll come roaring back into the fight to pick up our dead bard with a flick of a Raise Dead, and that bard will be back no worse for wear and his full CON score. When we meet a bit of a problem, we'll all run away, and even our dwarves and halflings will be able to keep up because there's no land speed differences between them and other sized races.

Oh, and darkvision doesn't do anything.

CLEARLY Turbine has their hands tied and is completely tied to the D&D 3.5 license and nothing they'll ever be able to do will let them escape from that.

Oh, and by the way, he's a few more (http://ddowiki.com/page/PnP_differences).



If you're responding to A_D's comment, it wasn't about "not adding low level spells," he was criticizing you for suggesting a spell in a form that would only matter at low levels.

Web, a second level spell, is useful when you get it. It is also useful in level 20 content. Use that as an idea to design with.


EDIT: Also, you don't have to hold back and "keep people guessing what spell you're gonna suggest next." This is a suggestions board. People don't care.


+1 rep for a written beatdown.

fatherpirate
05-05-2010, 05:58 AM
no, it is not cut and paste 3.5.....but it is not wow either, where the only things in
game that matter is what is useful in end game.
as for the 'clues', it helps me keep track of which spell I will deal with next.

and that brings me to the next spell.

parvo
05-05-2010, 06:32 AM
First, they should do a full review of every spell in the game, fixing the ones that don't work well. There are so many cool spells in DDO that go unused because they aren't balanced properly for the stupidflation in DDO. HD limits, extremely low damage (for a world filled with mobs who have inflated HP), targetting problems, etc ...

Cylinwolf
05-05-2010, 07:08 AM
ok, this spell needs to be altered from the PnP version or it would be
over powered for DDO.


It's entirely hypocritical to suggest that one spell should be changed to better suit this game, but refuse to change others on the grounds that it should be as close to 3.5 as possible.

Mirimon
05-05-2010, 07:59 AM
CLEARLY Turbine has their hands tied and is completely tied to the D&D 3.5 license and nothing they'll ever be able to do will let them escape from that.


Never thought that personally. But they are in the unenviable position of trying to walk a razor edge by trying to use and balance rules that work for a pen and paper game AND a action based computer rpg at the same time despite that they can be contradictory.
They are also stuck in the middle between those that demand they stay true to the source material and those that want them to have the freedom to expand on it, while making neither side really happy. Both sides have their own expectations that clash against each other and often can't be met in the way they demand.
Even if they do give in to a side's demands, all they end up doing is making the other side angry and the one they cater to will STILL nitpick and find stuff to complain about. It is a classic example of lose-lose.
And this isn't even considering the legal complications that can arise from being tied to leased materials from a company known to be protective of (and stingy with) their properties (wotc) while they were also trying to avoid any extra heat from their publisher (example: several foreign game companies had their.right to handle game development for a region revoked and saw it given to a competitor for angering their publisher and/or the copyright holder recently).

Edit: that holy water spell..... You expect a low level cleric to spend that expensive and rare of a collectible for that low of damage? Adding that you want to make vanish when you leave the instance if not used makes it even worse then useless.
I'd also be wary of boosting the spells across the table if it includes the AI though. That they can spam the spell endlessly (and in some cases even bug out and spam cast while being held) means they need to be balanced different then the players who actually do watch their resources.

Chaosprism
05-05-2010, 08:00 AM
As I said Hypnotism was changed away from it's original hitdice limitation, is it overpowered now that it's been changed?

The other spells should follow suit and have the HD limitations removed or have some minor effect at least on creatures beyond that hitdice.

What's wrong with a 1x target fear? we have a LV 4 CONE of fear that hits everything in front and it suffers from no HD limitations, why would a cause fear on 1 target need a HD limitation?

Fear effects could probably benefit from changing based on how badly things made their save.

Petrified: Cowers in place paralysed by fear (like mummy despair)
Afraid: Runs away as from things as much as it can.
Shaken: (doom effect, -2 to hit, saves, skill checks)

Balance comes in the duration of the effects.

fatherpirate
05-05-2010, 08:04 AM
It's entirely hypocritical to suggest that one spell should be changed to better suit this game, but refuse to change others on the grounds that it should be as close to 3.5 as possible.

not really..well at least with this spell

the big reason it needs to be changed is the PnP range and duration.
if you go strictly with the PnP

it would have the rng of a longbow and last 1 minute per lvl.

That would make it far more powerful than current crowd control spells at that lvl.
but I hear ya. I am not listing these lost spells in order to try and get the developers
to change how they balance things out in game...it is more to bring more options
to casters, similar to what they have in PnP.

Seikojin
05-06-2010, 04:17 PM
Weird should be added. It at least would be relevant and something people would follow.

Also the other prismatics would be nice. Although they would be harder to impliment due to their nature. It would be cool though and neat if enemy AI was scripted to take them down. LOL