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Daehawk
05-03-2010, 05:09 AM
Alright so if we look at all the exotic weapons we have:

------------------------------
One-Handed Melee
Bastard Sword
d10 19-20/x2

Dwarven Axe(Martial Weapon for Dwarves)
d10 20/x3

Kama(Monks Auto-proficient with)
d6 20/x2

Khopesh
d8 19-20/x3


Ranged Weapons
Great Crossbow
2d8 18-20/x2

Heavy Repeating Crossbow
d10 19-20/x2

Light Repeating Crossbow
d8 19-20/x2

------------------------------

Update 5 is introducing Glancing blows to Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes while Single-Wielding or Sword-And-Boarding. Still doesn't help bastard swords that much to balance with Khopesh.

Most of my suggestion posts are kinda long and thought out. But I'm tired and it's almost 5am so this one is going to be simplier.

Let's say Bastard Sword was changed to be d10 18-20/x2 vs current d10 19-20/x2.

Now let's compare modified Bastard Sword to Khopesh:


Bastard Sword
Base Damage: d10 18-20/x2
Non-Crit Damage: 1-10
Crit Damage: 2-20
Base Crit %: 15%
Keen Crit Range: 15-20/x2
Keen Crit %: 30%

Khopesh
Base Damage: d8 19-20/x3
Non-Crit Damage: 1-8
Crit Damage: 3-24
Base Crit %: 10%
Keen Crit Range: 17-20/x3
Keen Crit %: 20%

This seems like a rather simple change, but it would depend on how their coding for weaponry is. If generic modified loot is preset by only 1 integer than changing that one would modify all future(maybe current/but not likely without being put into stone of change) bastard swords. While the 5 Named Bastard Swords would probably have to be modified personally each database integer section.

Would this open up more possiblities for the Bastard Sword? Perhaps.
Would it break people away from their Khopeshes? Possibly not.

Khopesh could still do more damage when it crits, but the Bastard Sword would crit more often. Right now most suggestions you hear for weapons is Khopesh, Scimitar, or Rapiers.

Scimitar (Slashing)
d6 18-20/x2

Rapier (Piercing)
d6 18-20/x2

Both those being 18-20/x2 crit ranges. Opening up Bastard Sword to 18-20/x2 as well would probably change those suggestions over to Khopesh, Bastard Sword, or Rapiers perhaps.
But Bastard Swords and Khopeshes both take up a feat? So there would have to be some balance between them.

Scanned through Bastard Sword searches in suggestion forums just now, like when I got to this part lol. Didn't see a similar one.

So thoughts? Feelings? How bad is my math off at 5am?
Would this make you think about Khopesh Vs Bastard Sword when choosing your exotic weapon proficiency?

Veriden
05-03-2010, 06:13 AM
Hmm, I can see where you are coming from but the only change they should make to bastard swords is the two handed rule that is in the player's handbook.

If ddo is going to stick strickly to the books with the weapons (yes, some weapons are more powerful than others for a reason. They are made differently. The khopesh is heavier blade end and exotically shaped giving it a horrible balance for untrained hands. [granted khopeshes look nothing like what they do in the game]) Bastard swords are treated as martial weapons (not exotic) if a character uses them with two hands. True they don't do the damage other two handed weapons do for being two handed, but the fact it is interchangable with one hand (and the fact bastard swords are one of the few weapons in the game that actually look decent) is why the bastard is a balanced and plausible weapon to use in pnp.

So the only real fix they can do to a bastard sword is make it two handed if you don't possess the exotic weapon feat.

Besides, khopeshes pretty much make it easy to point out the twf power gamers with no style or originality.

Daehawk
05-03-2010, 06:22 AM
Seeker modifier as we know adds damage before the multiplier of the weapon.

Here I will compare 2 different Seeker types to compare the damage that the Modified Bastard Sword and the Khopesh would receive.

Bloodstone : Seeker +6

Khopesh
Crit Mod : 19-20/x3
Crit Damage No Seeker : 3-24
Crit Damage Seeker 6 : 21-42
Keen Crit % : 20%
Normal Crit % : 10%

Bastard Sword
Crit Mod : 18-20/x2
Crit Damage No Seeker : 2-20
Crit Damage Seeker 6 : 14-32
Keen Crit % : 30%
Normal Crit % : 15%


Epic Marilith Chain : Seeker +10

Khopesh
Crit Mod : 19-20/x3
Crit Damage No Seeker : 3-24
Crit Damage Seeker 10 : 33-54
Keen Crit % : 20%
Normal Crit % : 10%

Bastard Sword
Crit Mod : 18-20/x2
Crit Damage No Seeker : 2-20
Crit Damage Seeker 10 : 22-40
Keen Crit % : 30%
Normal Crit % : 15%


The damage still trails behind with Seeker, but it would crit more often thus could be seen as surpassing it. I decided to do some more math. =P

Daehawk
05-03-2010, 06:27 AM
Hmm, I can see where you are coming from but the only change they should make to bastard swords is the two handed rule that is in the player's handbook.

If ddo is going to stick strickly to the books with the weapons (yes, some weapons are more powerful than others for a reason. They are made differently. The khopesh is heavier blade end and exotically shaped giving it a horrible balance for untrained hands. [granted khopeshes look nothing like what they do in the game]) Bastard swords are treated as martial weapons (not exotic) if a character uses them with two hands. True they don't do the damage other two handed weapons do for being two handed, but the fact it is interchangable with one hand (and the fact bastard swords are one of the few weapons in the game that actually look decent) is why the bastard is a balanced and plausible weapon to use in pnp.

So the only real fix they can do to a bastard sword is make it two handed if you don't possess the exotic weapon feat.

Besides, khopeshes pretty much make it easy to point out the twf power gamers with no style or originality.

Khopesh wasn't made by the book though. IIRC the Khopesh in the book is actually 19-20/x2 as well, but it has an automatic trip % if I recall which is why they made it x3 instead of the book x2.

So I can see them going against the strictly book sense for things as well.

Temko
05-03-2010, 06:44 AM
Besides, khopeshes pretty much make it easy to point out the twf power gamers with no style or originality.

and it has nothing to do with the fact that it's clearly a superior TWF weapon *eyeroll*

MysteryNotes
05-03-2010, 06:52 AM
Alright so if we look at all the exotic weapons we have:

------------------------------
One-Handed Melee
Bastard Sword
d10 19-20/x2

Dwarven Axe(Martial Weapon for Dwarves)
d10 20/x3

Kama(Monks Auto-proficient with)
d6 20/x2

Khopesh
d8 19-20/x3


Ranged Weapons
Great Crossbow
2d8 18-20/x2

Heavy Repeating Crossbow
d10 19-20/x2

Light Repeating Crossbow
d8 19-20/x2

------------------------------

Update 5 is introducing Glancing blows to Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes while Single-Wielding or Sword-And-Boarding. Still doesn't help bastard swords that much to balance with Khopesh.

Most of my suggestion posts are kinda long and thought out. But I'm tired and it's almost 5am so this one is going to be simplier.

Let's say Bastard Sword was changed to be d10 18-20/x2 vs current d10 19-20/x2.

Now let's compare modified Bastard Sword to Khopesh:


Bastard Sword
Base Damage: d10 18-20/x2
Non-Crit Damage: 1-10
Crit Damage: 2-20
Base Crit %: 10%
Keen Crit Range: 15-20/x2
Keen Crit %: 25%

Khopesh
Base Damage: d8 19-20/x3
Non-Crit Damage: 1-8
Crit Damage: 3-24
Base Crit %: 5%
Keen Crit Range: 17-20/x3
Keen Crit %: 15%

This seems like a rather simple change, but it would depend on how their coding for weaponry is. If generic modified loot is preset by only 1 integer than changing that one would modify all future(maybe current/but not likely without being put into stone of change) bastard swords. While the 5 Named Bastard Swords would probably have to be modified personally each database integer section.

Would this open up more possiblities for the Bastard Sword? Perhaps.
Would it break people away from their Khopeshes? Possibly not.

Khopesh could still do more damage when it crits, but the Bastard Sword would crit more often. Right now most suggestions you hear for weapons is Khopesh, Scimitar, or Rapiers.

Scimitar (Slashing)
d6 18-20/x2

Rapier (Piercing)
d6 18-20/x2

Both those being 18-20/x2 crit ranges. Opening up Bastard Sword to 18-20/x2 as well would probably change those suggestions over to Khopesh, Bastard Sword, or Rapiers perhaps.
But Bastard Swords and Khopeshes both take up a feat? So there would have to be some balance between them.

Scanned through Bastard Sword searches in suggestion forums just now, like when I got to this part lol. Didn't see a similar one.

So thoughts? Feelings? How bad is my math off at 5am?
Would this make you think about Khopesh Vs Bastard Sword when choosing your exotic weapon proficiency?


Don't want to sound silly but...
Isn't the % for the crit 30%, if the crit range is 15-20? You can crit on 15,16,17,18,19 and 20. Sooo?

And wouldn't the keen crit range would be 17-20, so shouldn't it be 20%? Unless it changed ingame recently.

Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

dunklezhan
05-03-2010, 06:56 AM
and it has nothing to do with the fact that it's clearly a superior TWF weapon *eyeroll*

Assuming you can get your hands on one. And since the min-maxers just gotta have it.... it may be easier for a new player to get their hands on nice pre/suffix Bastard Swords and the like from the AH or brokers than it is to get their hands on Kopeshes. Sadly, there is also a crowd of people where 'sub optimal' is like some kind of disease, and there's no denying that everything except the Kopesh fits the sub-optimal bill.

This game seems to suffers from uniformity-syndrome at the top level in armour design and weapon choice. I'm therefore in favour of anything that knocks a particular category of weapon from the top of the tree, and introduces variety.

I would have no problem with the idea that the 'best' weapons ought to be exotics - if you want the best you've got to deliberately make that kind of feat design investment. But I don't understand why they've made the kopesh SO much better than the rest. I'd say drop it back to the PnP design stats, but introduce a %trip like there is with weighted on certain weapons. I also like the bastard sword 'fix' proposal where not having the feat makes it usable, but as a 'poor' 2 handed weapon. Having the feat then opens it to TWF (an option that I see no reason not to apply to Kopesh too).

In fact, it could be interesting to consider whether all the exotics ought to have something 'extra'. E.g. Kukri with a chance of applying hamstring or bleed; Kopesh have %trip; Bastard Swords have an automatic +seeker for the extra weight; etc.

Daehawk
05-03-2010, 06:59 AM
Don't want to sound silly but...
Isn't the % for the crit 30%, if the crit range is 15-20? You can crit on 15,16,17,18,19 and 20. Sooo?

And wouldn't the keen crit range would be 17-20, so shouldn't it be 20%? Unless it changed ingame recently.

Please do correct me if i'm wrong.

Probably, I'm tired but can't sleep so I did it the simple way of taking 15-20 and converted it to 75-100 which 100-75 = 25.

17-20 = 85-100 and 100-85 = 15

That's where I grabbed my numbers from.

But yeah they probably all need to be adjusted up by 5%. I'll get on that later after coffee.

Sleep deprivity and math don't really go together imo.

Veriden
05-03-2010, 07:27 AM
actually, it is in one of the books the arms and armor book. It did not have a x3 crit and is 19-20 as you say but it did not have a percentage for automatic trip. It merely allowed you to make trip attacks (as not all weapons allow such with out provoking an attack of oppertunity.) As for the 'superior' form of two weapon fighting mentioned earlier by some one. Congrats you proved my point brilliantly. Just another chip in the pile of power gamers.

Hjarki
05-03-2010, 07:43 AM
Update 5 is introducing Glancing blows to Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes while Single-Wielding or Sword-And-Boarding. Still doesn't help bastard swords that much to balance with Khopesh.

If you've got glancing blows on your Bastard Sword, but not your Khopesh, your Bastard Sword will outdamage your Khopesh by ~5% against 0% Fortification and ~30% against 100% Fortification. If you're fighting 3 targets at once, your Bastard Sword will outdamage your Khopesh by ~40% even against 0% Fortification. Not to mention making holding threat on multiple targets much easier.

Daehawk
05-03-2010, 07:49 AM
If you've got glancing blows on your Bastard Sword, but not your Khopesh, your Bastard Sword will outdamage your Khopesh by ~5% against 0% Fortification and ~30% against 100% Fortification. If you're fighting 3 targets at once, your Bastard Sword will outdamage your Khopesh by ~40% even against 0% Fortification. Not to mention making holding threat on multiple targets much easier.

Yes it was a tanking design for the glancing, but you have to remember that even with the glancing that doesn't mean it's doing more damage. 2 Khopeshes vs 1 Bastard Sword with Glancing, the Khopeshes will still be on top.



actually, it is in one of the books the arms and armor book. It did not have a x3 crit and is 19-20 as you say but it did not have a percentage for automatic trip. It merely allowed you to make trip attacks (as not all weapons allow such with out provoking an attack of oppertunity.)

Might want to re-read what I said. I stated that it wasn't made by the book. Not that it wasn't in any of the books. In the books it is 19-20/x2, not 19-20/x3. Thus it wasn't made by the books thus other weapons don't have to be strictly made by the books for balancing purposes. It allowed you to make trip attacks with the weapons and if you were tripped during your trip attempt then you were allowed to drop your khopesh in order to not get tripped.

Newtons_Apple
05-03-2010, 09:59 AM
Assuming you can get your hands on one. And since the min-maxers just gotta have it.... it may be easier for a new player to get their hands on nice pre/suffix Bastard Swords and the like from the AH or brokers than it is to get their hands on Kopeshes. Sadly, there is also a crowd of people where 'sub optimal' is like some kind of disease, and there's no denying that everything except the Kopesh fits the sub-optimal bill.

This game seems to suffers from uniformity-syndrome at the top level in armour design and weapon choice. I'm therefore in favour of anything that knocks a particular category of weapon from the top of the tree, and introduces variety.

I would have no problem with the idea that the 'best' weapons ought to be exotics - if you want the best you've got to deliberately make that kind of feat design investment. But I don't understand why they've made the kopesh SO much better than the rest. I'd say drop it back to the PnP design stats, but introduce a %trip like there is with weighted on certain weapons. I also like the bastard sword 'fix' proposal where not having the feat makes it usable, but as a 'poor' 2 handed weapon. Having the feat then opens it to TWF (an option that I see no reason not to apply to Kopesh too).

In fact, it could be interesting to consider whether all the exotics ought to have something 'extra'. E.g. Kukri with a chance of applying hamstring or bleed; Kopesh have %trip; Bastard Swords have an automatic +seeker for the extra weight; etc.

But if you "knock the Khopesh from the top of the tree", some other weapon will then become the top one. From what I can gather just from hearing about other MMO's, they all tend to suffer from top end uniformity.

I don't use Khopeshes, but I'd still hate to see a nerf happen to them. The devs from the very start decided to make it the weapon of choice by changing one little number from x2 ---> x3. While trip is nice, the difference between X2 and x3 at endgame levels is exponential when you factor in burst damage, seeker and power attack bonuses, kensai enhancements, bard songs, rage boosts, etc. There would be much screaming.

I'd personally like to see a crunch of the numbers (over time) comparing bastard swords to khopesh with the bastard sword being set to d10, 18-20, x2. I suspect it may be over-powering, especially from a burst/smiting/pally smiting, enfeebling standpoint. But since I'm no good at number crunching, I'm officially asking the community to do it for me. :)

Angelus_dead
05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
If you've got glancing blows on your Bastard Sword, but not your Khopesh, your Bastard Sword will outdamage your Khopesh by ~5% against 0% Fortification and ~30% against 100% Fortification.
Uh, what percentage of attacks do you think will include a glancing blow?

dunklezhan
05-03-2010, 10:14 AM
But if you "knock the Khopesh from the top of the tree", some other weapon will then become the top one. From what I can gather just from hearing about other MMO's, they all tend to suffer from top end uniformity.



When I say knock from the top of the tree, I obviously would prefer not to just replace it with something else that's overpowering. I'd rather have something of an arguably comparable powerlevel - even if the Kopesh was not changed (for all the reasons you've given) I would be in favour of changing another weapon to make it a viable alternative option. So the Bastard Sword could for example gain more of a crit range, or perhaps be given an added function so that even if the DPS isn't comparable there's something else that would actually be of value to a player who wants to try something else but not be 'sub optimal'.

I'd like to see something that encourages tactics, and breaks the 'DPS is the only tactic you need' approach prevalent here. Bsword could perhaps have a % stun as standard, or grant an AC bonus of some kind, or something else that just gives it that certain something that means if you wanted to go for something other than Kopesh for your TWF build there's a viable, interesting alternative.

The Kopesh is an awesome weapon by virtue of the damage output of the basic weapon template. Ok, I'm cool with that. But why not have something else that's also awesome, but by virtue of something else that could be part of the basic weapon template (a special effect common to all Bastard Swords, or Kukris, or whatever it is you choose for your 'awesome but for different reasons' weapon template)? That's all I'm saying.

Hjarki
05-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Yes it was a tanking design for the glancing, but you have to remember that even with the glancing that doesn't mean it's doing more damage. 2 Khopeshes vs 1 Bastard Sword with Glancing, the Khopeshes will still be on top.

2 daggers vs. 1 Bastard Sword, TWF would be on top. The point of the Update 5 change is to make these weapons decent for a particular combat style, not to create some sort of new uber-weapon.


Uh, what percentage of attacks do you think will include a glancing blow?

You get glancing blows on 3 of 4 hooks while stationary.

AylinIsAwesome
05-03-2010, 01:32 PM
2 daggers vs. 1 Bastard Sword, TWF would be on top. The point of the Update 5 change is to make these weapons decent for a particular combat style, not to create some sort of new uber-weapon.

You get glancing blows on 3 of 4 hooks while stationary.

The changes made to using a single Bastard Sword with either no off-hand weapon or a shield have nothing to do with this thread. This is about TWF, not S&B.

GhoulsTouch
05-03-2010, 01:40 PM
You shouldn't need a feat to use a bastard sword just be able to use martial weapons, that will balance everything out perfectly.

dunklezhan
05-03-2010, 04:52 PM
You shouldn't need a feat to use a bastard sword just be able to use martial weapons, that will balance everything out perfectly.

*grumblegrumbleifyou'regoingtogoaroundbeinglogical aboutitgrumblegrumblewhere'sthefuninthatgrumblegru mble*

hydra_ex
05-03-2010, 04:54 PM
You shouldn't need a feat to use a bastard sword just be able to use martial weapons, that will balance everything out perfectly.

Scimitars/Rapiers are still a better martial weapon.

lord_of_rage
05-03-2010, 04:56 PM
All I have to say is I await the epic deathnip:). Then my KOTC pally will be really happy.

Chai
05-03-2010, 05:07 PM
Khopesh wasn't made by the book though. IIRC the Khopesh in the book is actually 19-20/x2 as well, but it has an automatic trip % if I recall which is why they made it x3 instead of the book x2.

So I can see them going against the strictly book sense for things as well.

Correct. This is why khopesh is the ONLY weapon sans named exceptions that is BOTH more than x2 AND more than just a 20 threat. All other weapons that are more in one category are contained on the other category for balance reasons. When I hear people say it needs to stay that way because it takes a feat to invest in it, I point out that there are plenty of other fail weapons that are "exotic" (LOL) and require a feat.

ie: x2 19-20. x2 18-20. or x3 20 only, or x4 20 only.

Chai
05-03-2010, 05:18 PM
But if you "knock the Khopesh from the top of the tree", some other weapon will then become the top one. From what I can gather just from hearing about other MMO's, they all tend to suffer from top end uniformity.



Its a MUCH more honest debate which weapon to use if you exclude khopesh from the discussion. There would be no literal clear cut choice that always wins in all case scenarios involving slashing, which is the case now with khopesh. Choosing from all weapons sans khopesh, regardless of damage type, its purely situational. The only time khopesh loses is on 100% fort mobs, (epic pirate zombies lol), and even then it doesnt lose by much, or mobs that need pierce or blunt to bypass DR. There are only really a few of these in each category. The 2 pierce scenarios I can think of, Rakshashas and spiders, can both be vorped sans epic or named, and the major blunt option, skellys, mummies, and the like are all no crit undead anyhow, and can be disrupted, unless in epics, abbot, or a few other specific situations where deathward applies.

Taking away khopesh would be entertaining to read all the min maxer threads on what the new best weapon type is. Right now its pretty clear cut.

While this is all fine and dandy, the real disparity of late is there is no weapon to compare to the Epic SOS. When the gap between the best weapon in the game and the second best weapon in the game is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the 25th best weapon, theres an issue that needs to be resolved.

Daehawk
05-03-2010, 06:02 PM
While this thread could be seen as a 'zomg nerf khopesh' thread. That is not my goal. I see balancing in both it's lights. You can either "Nerf the Strong" and bring everything to the same level. Khopesh as a 19-20/x3 is fine. That's what the developers wanted it to be. The other way is to bring a weaker component up onto the level of the other. In this situation it seems most fit. If you do this too much though everything will become far too powerful and it would lose it's meaning though.

As Newtons_Apple's said a nice number crunch for it with more effects like "burst/smiting/pally smiting, enfeebling standpoint." If the d10 18-20/x2 would then be superior to d8 19-20/x3.

If Bastard Sword was changed from 19-20/x2 to 19-20/x3 it's clearly that then it would be the stronger contender. d10 19-20/x3 vs d8 19-20/x3. But with it going to d10 18-20/x2 vs d8 19-20/x3 I think that's a little more balanced between the two exotic weapons and would give more of a choice between the two.

A few other notes in this thread people were talking about 'Zomg you gotta be khopeshes or you're sub-par" well that is the point of this thread to try to balance Bastard Sword in a TWF sense up to around the level where there isn't a massive gap between Bastard Sword vs Khopesh for exotic weapon choices. This would create more customization to the players to allow a wider branch of accepted weapons.

I hope that clears things up a little more, if not here it is in bullet points:

This is not a Nerf Khopesh Thread.
This is a balancing of Exotic Melee Weapon Bastard Sword thread.
You don't have to nerf something to balance.
d10 18-20/x2 vs d8 19-20/x3 - Need someone to number crunch damage over time.
This is about TWF not S&B or Single-Wielding.


Discuss.

Hjarki
05-04-2010, 05:11 AM
The changes made to using a single Bastard Sword with either no off-hand weapon or a shield have nothing to do with this thread. This is about TWF, not S&B.

The OP brought the issue of the Update 5 changes into the discussion, not me.

The fact is that the devs have already announced the details of how they're balancing Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe, and these changes do balance these weapons against Khopesh. Keep in mind that the first test of "balance" is whether one option is strictly better than another in almost any conceivable circumstance.

The dev's changes meet this test. The OP's changes do not.

Syrophir
05-04-2010, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't mind if they made Khopesh more like what the book says.
I think that x3 crit multiper is what makes Khopesh too common. It's almost rare to see something else, and in most of these cases they wield something else only because they want something else even if it costs them some DPS.
I liked Khopesh when the game was still new and you could see more variety, but when we got more levels (14+) Khopeshes became kinda the obvious choice especially for TWF.
Maybe if pesh was just x2 without anything like that "trip thing" we would see nothing but Dwarven Axes again..
If they could modify Khopesh to be more like what the book says without that +1 to the crit multiper then maybe.

I would still prefer more content rather than just a quick fix to this issue.

galahad2002
06-24-2010, 08:13 AM
Why not make these weapons closer to the pnp. Kopesh has a % trip chance for every blow. I love tripping monsters that would help the over all damage anyway. And the Bastard should be able to switch between 1 & two handed. I know it would be nice to invest in one really amazing bastard sword then one really great kopesh and one great sword for example. I need a little more AC grab that shield.....I want a little more damage loose the shield and grab the sword 2 handed.

There are many many pnp rules and items they can bring in and make all the difference. Elven blade is a great one that I think will beat the Kopesh, and that one they can take right from pnp 1d8 18-20/x2.

supp3nhuhn
06-25-2010, 03:29 PM
Since you can carry 3 dozen swords with you there is pretty much no advantage in being able to both dual wield and s&b with a particular one of those.

That being said i think with the added glancing blows bastard swords did receive a very nice boost.

galahad2002
06-30-2010, 06:22 AM
I realize you can carry plenty of different weapons, but for example, it can take a long time to make a tier 3 weapon. To be able to use it in two different situations would be huge. Carry fewer weapons and be cheaper in the long run for those of us f2p that maybe get 5 hours a week of questing.

Robai
06-30-2010, 08:44 AM
Here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=238146
I gave average damage formula and made some comparisons (eg., Khopesh vs Bastard Sword).

Attack formula (without additional bonuses):
Attack = d20 + BAB + Strength_mod + Size_mod
(this is a random variable because d20 is random)

Let's denote
R = Enemy_AC - (BAB + Strength_mod + Size_mod)
(this is not random variable for a given monster, I call it "needed Roll")

For actual damage you do several rolls (attack roll, damage roll, attack roll to confirm critical, etc.), i.e. your damage is a random variable, but it is possible to calculate the exact average value of that random variable.

Since that value depends on R (you meet different monsters) you can draw a graph - that is what I did.


1)
Bastard Sword wins here for absolutely all R (in Plain case (i.e. with no bonuses, even Strength=10 here)):
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue) (http://i40.tinypic.com/15g6o77.jpg)
(high BAB means low R, high enemy AC means high R)


2)
If your weapons has only +5 Enhancement bonus:
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue) (http://i43.tinypic.com/2ytz7fb.jpg)
(no big difference, Bastard Sword is slightly better)



3)
If your weapon has +5 Enhancement bonus, you have Power Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats then
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue) (http://i44.tinypic.com/b4bz3q.jpg)
(no big difference, Khopesh is slightly better)



4)
If your weapon has +5 Enhancement bonus and Seeker +10, you have Power Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats then
Khopesh (red) and Bastard Sword (blue) (http://i44.tinypic.com/jgs181.jpg)
(now Khopesh is really better)

Obviously I should have taken Strength 20 instead of 10, but it was the first calculations, so I left it as it is.

If you want me to make some specific calculations then tell me:
- your weapon
- your weapon's enhancements
- your Strength
- your feats
- your enhancements
And I will draw the graph of average damage in various situations, i.e. for various R (I can compare several weapons on the same graph).

These calculations does not include (I don't have the formula for that yet):

Glancing blows (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow) (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh since Update 5 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_5_Release_Notes#Items))
Grazing Hits (http://ddowiki.com/page/Grazing_Hits) (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh)
Damage Reduction (http://ddowiki.com/page/Damage_Reduction)
Fortification (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification) (that gives bonus to Bastard Sword against Khopesh)
Energy Resistance (http://ddowiki.com/page/Energy_Resistance)

But I can include many effects (i.e. the formula is ready for that) like:
- elemental, alignment, bane, sneak attack damage,
- even elemental burst damage, alignment burst damage,
- all feats or enhancements

Igrovin
07-01-2010, 09:43 AM
I for one am very confused on one point.

Khopesh isn't in any book that I see and i see many of them.

However there is a ghost spike weapon that is 19-20/x3 but its a double weapon. (Other side has only the 19-20/x2)

Montegue
07-01-2010, 01:33 PM
I for one am very confused on one point.

Khopesh isn't in any book that I see and i see many of them.

However there is a ghost spike weapon that is 19-20/x3 but its a double weapon. (Other side has only the 19-20/x2)


It's very much old school.

Also, in reality, a near-useless weapon in comparison to a proper sword. It's as silly (if not more silly) then a Klingon bat'leth. And before anyone asks, I'm actually a swordsman professionally. I teach everything from the rapier to the long sword (which is the real name for a bastard sword) to the arming sword (which is what D&D refers to as a long sword). To see the Khopesh dominate the DDO weapon hierarchy is pretty amusing.

galahad2002
07-02-2010, 06:56 AM
The Kopesh is in PNP it just has a % to trip instead of the x3 multiplier. Which in this game a tripped enemy would be better then a X3 crit IMO.

Hutoth
07-02-2010, 07:11 AM
Hmm, I can see where you are coming from but the only change they should make to bastard swords is the two handed rule that is in the player's handbook.

If ddo is going to stick strickly to the books with the weapons (yes, some weapons are more powerful than others for a reason. They are made differently. The khopesh is heavier blade end and exotically shaped giving it a horrible balance for untrained hands. [granted khopeshes look nothing like what they do in the game]) Bastard swords are treated as martial weapons (not exotic) if a character uses them with two hands. True they don't do the damage other two handed weapons do for being two handed, but the fact it is interchangable with one hand (and the fact bastard swords are one of the few weapons in the game that actually look decent) is why the bastard is a balanced and plausible weapon to use in pnp.

So the only real fix they can do to a bastard sword is make it two handed if you don't possess the exotic weapon feat.

Besides, khopeshes pretty much make it easy to point out the twf power gamers with no style or originality.

This made me wonder whether you could have it so Bastard sword does not require exotic if you have Oversize TWF...

k1ngp1n
07-02-2010, 07:35 AM
I'd personally like to see a crunch of the numbers (over time) comparing bastard swords to khopesh with the bastard sword being set to d10, 18-20, x2. I suspect it may be over-powering, especially from a burst/smiting/pally smiting, enfeebling standpoint. But since I'm no good at number crunching, I'm officially asking the community to do it for me. :)

Lightning Strike, Bloodstone, Improved Crit. Left hand column is damage bonus. Doesn't include certain class abilities (Kensai damage with Khop would be superior, Pally would be better with B.Sword). I do have that chart as well, but I don't really feel like copying it over :).

This is from a chart I maintain on every major weapon type for every fighting style.

DOES NOT INCLUDE GLANCING BLOWS. If glancing blows work as they do currently, Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes should now be superior damage weapons in a S&B configuration. I have yet to find the actual glancing blow formula so I can't run it through my spreadsheet (which currently includes all major weapons for all major styles for all fortification levels.)

Average damage per swing over time (missing on a 1.)



Bonus Khop. B.Sword B.Sword Proposed
30 100.00% 93.34% 100.34%
35 100.00% 92.71% 99.74%
40 100.00% 92.17% 99.23%
45 100.00% 91.71% 98.79%
50 100.00% 91.30% 98.40%
55 100.00% 90.94% 98.06%
60 100.00% 90.62% 97.75%
65 100.00% 90.33% 97.48%
70 100.00% 90.07% 97.24%
75 100.00% 89.84% 97.01%
80 100.00% 89.63% 96.81%

1 41.575 42 44.75
2 42.925 43.15 46
3 44.275 44.3 47.25
4 45.625 45.45 48.5
5 46.975 46.6 49.75
6 48.325 47.75 51
7 49.675 48.9 52.25
8 51.025 50.05 53.5
9 52.375 51.2 54.75
10 53.725 52.35 56
11 55.075 53.5 57.25
12 56.425 54.65 58.5
13 57.775 55.8 59.75
14 59.125 56.95 61
15 60.475 58.1 62.25
16 61.825 59.25 63.5
17 63.175 60.4 64.75
18 64.525 61.55 66
19 65.875 62.7 67.25
20 67.225 63.85 68.5
21 68.575 65 69.75
22 69.925 66.15 71
23 71.275 67.3 72.25
24 72.625 68.45 73.5
25 73.975 69.6 74.75
26 75.325 70.75 76
27 76.675 71.9 77.25
28 78.025 73.05 78.5
29 79.375 74.2 79.75
30 80.725 75.35 81
31 82.075 76.5 82.25
32 83.425 77.65 83.5
33 84.775 78.8 84.75
34 86.125 79.95 86
35 87.475 81.1 87.25
36 88.825 82.25 88.5
37 90.175 83.4 89.75
38 91.525 84.55 91
39 92.875 85.7 92.25
40 94.225 86.85 93.5
41 95.575 88 94.75
42 96.925 89.15 96
43 98.275 90.3 97.25
44 99.625 91.45 98.5
45 100.975 92.6 99.75
46 102.325 93.75 101
47 103.675 94.9 102.25
48 105.025 96.05 103.5
49 106.375 97.2 104.75
50 107.725 98.35 106
51 109.075 99.5 107.25
52 110.425 100.65 108.5
53 111.775 101.8 109.75
54 113.125 102.95 111
55 114.475 104.1 112.25
56 115.825 105.25 113.5
57 117.175 106.4 114.75
58 118.525 107.55 116
59 119.875 108.7 117.25
60 121.225 109.85 118.5
61 122.575 111 119.75
62 123.925 112.15 121
63 125.275 113.3 122.25
64 126.625 114.45 123.5
65 127.975 115.6 124.75
66 129.325 116.75 126
67 130.675 117.9 127.25
68 132.025 119.05 128.5
69 133.375 120.2 129.75
70 134.725 121.35 131
71 136.075 122.5 132.25
72 137.425 123.65 133.5
73 138.775 124.8 134.75
74 140.125 125.95 136
75 141.475 127.1 137.25
76 142.825 128.25 138.5
77 144.175 129.4 139.75
78 145.525 130.55 141
79 146.875 131.7 142.25
80 148.225 132.85 143.5

Wizard_Zero
07-15-2010, 01:35 AM
So as much as I try to convince myself that BS can compete with a Khopesh, it seems like there is no way. Did a test of +2 BS and +2 Khopesh with as Bloodstone equipped at lvl 9 and this is what I got:

Khopesh: 49.81 crit average
BS: 38.66 crit average

And that is just at level 9, without any burst effects. I like BS, mostly because they look cooler, have glancing blows and really cheap on the AH, but the numbers don't justify going BS over Khopesh.

theb
07-15-2010, 01:54 AM
Bastard swords are bigger. They should therefore have more reach. That would be easy to implement (probably) and give them a unique advantage over khopeshes, without either nerfing a weapon type or unbalancing the game by promoting a different weapon as best dps.

h4x0r1f1c
07-20-2010, 09:28 PM
So as much as I try to convince myself that BS can compete with a Khopesh, it seems like there is no way. Did a test of +2 BS and +2 Khopesh with as Bloodstone equipped at lvl 9 and this is what I got:

Khopesh: 49.81 crit average
BS: 38.66 crit average

And that is just at level 9, without any burst effects. I like BS, mostly because they look cooler, have glancing blows and really cheap on the AH, but the numbers don't justify going BS over Khopesh.

Try comparing Green Steel Khopesh to Green Steel Bastard Sword.