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View Full Version : Sword/Board - how about they can dual wield the two



Pehtis
04-29-2010, 02:55 AM
Reading that sword/board builds are too weak (from a dps perspective) to be useful end game. I'm sure if you somehow decked it out with greensteel stuff (no idea) and just use the build to hide behind shield while drawing initial aggro it could be useful for party. But seriously I would not want to play it because it would not be any fun (give me something to swing at).

But what if ............... the shield could be used just like any other dual weapon?? Imagine also they DON'T lose AC (or very minimal) when using the skill. TWF feat remains totally separate.

Sure enough you would need to make them have a feat for it. Maybe Shield Mastery and Shield Bash becomes a pre req.

Now that would open up some very interesting builds.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2010, 03:16 AM
It is for reasons like that that I often suggest that the Improved Shield Bash feat include a toggle to use shield bashes as part of your regular attack animation.

To do that would increase the DPS of dedicated S&B characters, while not infringing on the territory of real damage builds, because the shield is a worse kind of weapon than an actual TWF offhandm and the number of attacks can be lower as well (because it represents less feat investment).

mediocresurgeon
04-29-2010, 04:11 AM
In PnP, it was easy to make a TWF shield basher. (Just imagine Sophitia or Cassandra from Soul Calibur). Take the Improved Shield Bash feat, TWF line, a piked shield, and you were set.

The main problem with shields in DDO is that they are purely defensive, and against many monsters your AC does not help mitigate damage in any way (but having one equipped still lowers your possible DPS).

mediocresurgeon
04-29-2010, 04:11 AM
(Double post)

Aesop
04-29-2010, 05:09 AM
It is for reasons like that that I often suggest that the Improved Shield Bash feat include a toggle to use shield bashes as part of your regular attack animation.

To do that would increase the DPS of dedicated S&B characters, while not infringing on the territory of real damage builds, because the shield is a worse kind of weapon than an actual TWF offhandm and the number of attacks can be lower as well (because it represents less feat investment).

Once again

/signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public enquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters.


Aesop

Pehtis
04-29-2010, 12:41 PM
Not certain what "Founder" stands for in member profile. So what you are telling me is this common sense idea is nothing new and has been raised before.

In that case, it is likely a good idea and ought to be pursued a little with the DEV's. Perhaps continuous bumping of the thread (or the relevant thread that had a better thought out proposal) might at least get their attention wand reply.

SaisMatters
04-29-2010, 12:57 PM
Not certain what "Founder" stands for in member profile. So what you are telling me is this common sense idea is nothing new and has been raised before.

In that case, it is likely a good idea and ought to be pursued a little with the DEV's. Perhaps continuous bumping of the thread (or the relevant thread that had a better thought out proposal) might at least get their attention wand reply.

Founder stands for inflated ego's! hahahaha Just Kidding! :) It means they were here in Beta!

Chai
04-29-2010, 12:58 PM
Reading that sword/board builds are too weak (from a dps perspective) to be useful end game. I'm sure if you somehow decked it out with greensteel stuff (no idea) and just use the build to hide behind shield while drawing initial aggro it could be useful for party. But seriously I would not want to play it because it would not be any fun (give me something to swing at).

But what if ............... the shield could be used just like any other dual weapon?? Imagine also they DON'T lose AC (or very minimal) when using the skill. TWF feat remains totally separate.

Sure enough you would need to make them have a feat for it. Maybe Shield Mastery and Shield Bash becomes a pre req.

Now that would open up some very interesting builds.

You mean like simulating real life melee combat? No, we cant possibly do that....LOL.

I currently know 2 weapon and shield forms and am learning a third. Believe me, a shield can be use as a weapon, and be just as lethal as any other weapon, edged or not. As a game mechanic however, there has to be a drawback to having all that AC the shield provides. In regular PnP DnD this offsets and balances nicely at low levels, but in DDO, where AC doesnt even matter unless you can get scads of it, theres no balance. SnB tanks play specific roles, and usually take a full on damage combat line for DPSing in all other situations.

I am also surprised at blunt weapons being made so weak compared to edged in DnD. Blunt weapons were originally created to combat wearers of full plate, as the weapon will disjoint the armor and smash dents and gaps into form fitting plates, which will cripple or kill the armor wearer. You can also do just as much damage due to concussion alone even not cutting through the armor. Maces should have been 19-20 X2. I think they got warhammers right at 20 threat, x3.

Deathseeker
04-29-2010, 01:03 PM
It is for reasons like that that I often suggest that the Improved Shield Bash feat include a toggle to use shield bashes as part of your regular attack animation.

To do that would increase the DPS of dedicated S&B characters, while not infringing on the territory of real damage builds, because the shield is a worse kind of weapon than an actual TWF offhandm and the number of attacks can be lower as well (because it represents less feat investment).


The other benefit this could have is to make unnamed shields that drop become useful again if they adjusted the prefix/suffix selection. Instead of a useless +5 lesser fire guard shield of resistance +3 (totally worthless) you could get a +5 Holy Shield of Greater Undead Bane, which wouldn't be too horrible if the shield bash attacks were added into the sequence.

At least then Shields might only be vendored 95% of the time instead of 100% of the time once you pass level 10.

Hjarki
04-29-2010, 02:23 PM
I dimly recall reading that the developers are planning to implement glancing blows on Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes when you're holding a shield. This would increase the dps of S&B (albeit not to top tier status) as well as give S&B users a reason to take a full feat chain they can use for better dps when a shield isn't needed.

Glancing blows also works better mechanically for a tank than two weapon fighting-style improvements, since it helps hold aggro on multiple targets.

Zachski
04-29-2010, 02:36 PM
...Hell, for the Spartans (if the Deadliest Warriors show can be trusted), their shield was as much a weapon as anything. Shield bash, shank them with a short sword while they're reeling.

Honestly, I agtree with whoever said that they really should make sword and board have its own animation if you have improved Shield Bash. Something that's fast enough to be used so that it isn't miles behind TWF.

Let me put it this way: A Sword-and-boarder should not be dealing as much damage as either TWF or THF. However, they should not be dealing so LITTLE damage compared to TWF or THF. Doing stuff with the animation to work shields into the attack chain and increasing the attack speed via that way should let them get closer. I'd say being able to do 75% the DPS of TWF should be a decent balance.

...By the way, are there shields with Weighted? If not, there needs to be.

Josh
04-29-2010, 02:42 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/55/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Primalhowl
04-29-2010, 02:54 PM
@OP: /signed in triplicate.

Heck, TWF, THF, and unarmed combat all have their own attack animations. The current attack animations are sufficient for anyone who is wielding a single weapon. But S&B *needs* its own set of animations... which would mean that more could be done to vary the abilities of the styles.

In reality, there should be some sort of advantage to fighting with each of the styles, including a single one-handed weapon. TWF gets more attacks (per sequence), THF gets glancing blows, unarmed attacks faster (the sequence itself is faster), S&B gets shield bashing... maybe single weapon could get bonuses to things like trip, sunder, etc to reflect use of the free hand in combat?


...(if the Deadliest Warriors show can be trusted)...

Generally it can't (although they appear to be correct on the concept of the shield being used as a weapon). Bad science done by fanboi hobbyists looking to justify preestablished opinions. Not that the show isn't fun to watch, but their "version" of the scientific method and testing makes my sphincter pucker...

Angelus_dead
04-29-2010, 03:21 PM
In PnP, it was easy to make a TWF shield basher. (Just imagine Sophitia or Cassandra from Soul Calibur). Take the Improved Shield Bash feat, TWF line, a piked shield, and you were set.
It would be a mistake to copy those D&D rules directly into DDO there.

To do that would make TWF builds the only sensible way to get an S&B warrior. Instead of potentially having three kinds of warriors, there'd be only two: THF or TWF, and the TWF kinds would have the option to tank it up and use a shield. An S&B guy who didn't have GTWF would look stupid in comparison. (And note that Rangers would instantly become pretty good at S&B with their class feats)

A better approach would be to allow S&B characters to get additional attack hooks without needing to pursue the TWF tree, so the game can wind up supporting three options for melee warrior builds. That's why it's suggested to attach it to Improved Shield Bash.

Aesop
04-29-2010, 03:33 PM
Not certain what "Founder" stands for in member profile. So what you are telling me is this common sense idea is nothing new and has been raised before.

In that case, it is likely a good idea and ought to be pursued a little with the DEV's. Perhaps continuous bumping of the thread (or the relevant thread that had a better thought out proposal) might at least get their attention wand reply.

yeah pretty much we've been putting this out there for about...4 years or so.

sadly instead of fixing the style we had a couple of seldom used PrEs built into 2 classes and thus furthered the pigeonholing that has been an ongoing issue. One infact that ranks way high on the issues I hate.. if not the #1 thing in the game

Aesop

D'rin
04-29-2010, 03:45 PM
I love the idea. The amount of reanimating is going to take a while and apparently 4+years is not enough time.

Angelus_dead
04-29-2010, 03:48 PM
I love the idea. The amount of reanimating is going to take a while and apparently 4+years is not enough time.
Actually they can skip new animations. The existing S&B attack sequence involves enough waving around the shield that it is plausible to put in bash attempts without changing how the guy moves.

Pehtis
04-30-2010, 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'rin View Post
I love the idea. The amount of reanimating is going to take a while and apparently 4+years is not enough time.


Actually they can skip new animations. The existing S&B attack sequence involves enough waving around the shield that it is plausible to put in bash attempts without changing how the guy moves.

I did consider a variation whereby instead of dual wielding they incorporated Shield Bashing as automatic in attack sequence. Say the 3rd or 4th sequence. Maybe add % to enemy being knocked down due to momentum.

With regard to S&B dual wield idea, IMHO I would NOT want it part of the existing TWF feat chain and definitely have a separate feat chain for this (hence ranger don't auto get the perk).

There seems to be a uniform consensus that Sword & Board builds need improvement.

4 years is a VERY LONG time for an idea that I would not think is difficult to implement. I mean the code for it is already written per TWF.

Either way I think this thread line needs a bump. Who knows the DEV's may actually post a reply even if it is a 'maybe' response.

Four years warrants a response from the DEV's (or relevant spokesman).

Thumbs up!

honkuimushi
05-01-2010, 05:38 AM
There are a couple of fetas in PHB II that I've wanted to see implemented and I think that the idea of shield bash "hooks" would fit in very well and help give a decent DPS boost to sword and board without displacing TWF or THF.

First is Shield Specialization-- you get +1 AC when using a shield. I'm pretty sure that would be popular with most shield builds. Next is Agile Shield Fighter, which in PnP allows you to make a shield bash as an off hand attack in addition to your main hand attack at a -2 penalty to each without needing the TWF feat or having to meet the 15 Dex prereq. Instead, the prereqs are Shield Specialization and Improved Shield Bash.

I would like to see something like this:

Shield Specialization: as PnP

Improved Shield Bash: Works as before, but also increases the damage you do with a shield bash.

Agile Shield Fighter: Grants shield bash "hooks" on some animations.

No need for extra animations, just add the attacks. That would do a couple of things. First, it increases both the damage and AC if a sword and board character. But not for free. The TWF and THF chains each cost 3 feats. This change would still allow basic sword and shield fighting without spending any feats, but by spending 3 feats on sword and shield, you improve it greatly. It should also make hate tanking much more viable on sword and shield builds.

Pyromaniac
05-02-2010, 05:16 PM
/signed

Dual wielding shields for the win

Pehtis
05-05-2010, 02:14 AM
Quote:

There seems to be a uniform consensus that Sword & Board builds need improvement.

4 years is a VERY LONG time for an idea that I would not think is difficult to implement. I mean the code for it is already written per TWF.

Either way I think this thread line needs a bump. Who knows the DEV's may actually post a reply even if it is a 'maybe' response.

Four years warrants a response from the DEV's (or relevant spokesman).

Thumbs up!


Improve Sword & Board builds. Keeping the issue alive.

Aesop
05-05-2010, 05:08 AM
Improve Sword & Board builds. Keeping the issue alive.

See this happens a lot ... Most people agree with a suggestion so they don't really discuss it they just kinda nod their head and move on. In order to get the idea in the dev ears you have to use the male humpback whale mating method. Just spread it all over the place and hope that it gets in the right place and knocks the other similar ideas out.

Pehtis
05-17-2010, 03:39 AM
Let's keep this suggestion alive. Like I said perhaps the dev's will take note with enough replies to this whether in support or otherwise.




Quote:
Originally Posted by D'rin View Post
I love the idea. The amount of reanimating is going to take a while and apparently 4+years is not enough time.


There seems to be a uniform consensus that Sword & Board builds need improvement.

4 years is a VERY LONG time for an idea that I would not think is difficult to implement. I mean the code for it is already written per TWF.

Either way I think this thread line needs a bump. Who knows the DEV's may actually post a reply even if it is a 'maybe' response.

Four years warrants a response from the DEV's (or relevant spokesman).

Thumbs up!

TheKaige
05-17-2010, 07:38 AM
Best way, imo, to make it so that shield users can dual wield is to combine the fighting penalties for dual weapon fighting onto the shield hand and make the shield damage pathetic i.e.

Make the shield bash a part of the attack sequence like dual-wielding, + we don't lose our AC.

Light shields do 1d2 damage (-1 from other simple small weapons) Normally dual-wielding a light weapon without the feat is -4 primary hand, -8 secondary hand. Instead, combine the 2, add a +4 penalty (since you're concentrating the penalty in 1 hand, instead of distributing it) So shieldbashing with a light shield gives you no penalty to your prime hand, -16 to your shield bash (it's a free attack, not a very good one.

Heavy shields do 1d4 damage (-1 from other simple medium weapons) Dualwielding two big weapons is normally -6 prime hand, -10 off hand. Shieldbashing with a heavy shield gives no penalty prime hand, -20 to your shield bash.

Towershields normally can't be bashed with, period, + bucklers should do 1d2 damage, but don't have the extra -4 penalty.

Then make Improved Shield bash the equivalent of Dual-Wielding for shields, reduces the extra penalty to -2, and lets you bash with a tower shield as though it were a medium weapon and you had no feat. I.e.

Dual-wielding with light weapon off hand + feat is -2 prime hand, and -2 off hand. So dual-wielding a light shield becomes a -6 penalty.

Dual-wielding with a medium weapon off hand + feat is -4 prime hand, -4 off hand, so dual-wielding a heavy shield becomes a -10 penalty.

You can now bash with a Tower-Shield (1d6 damage) as though it were a heavy shield without you having the feat, so -20 to your shield bash.

Quick Table:
Buckler without Feat: 1d2 damage -12 to shield attack
Light Shield without Feat: 1d2 damage -16 to shield attack.
Heavy Shield without Feat: 1d4 damage -20 to shield attack.
Tower Shield without Feat: Can't Bash
Buckler with Feat: 1d2 damage -4 to shield attack
Light Shield with Feat: 1d2 damage -6 to shield attack.
Heavy Shield with Feat: 1d4 damage -10 to shield attack.
Tower Shield with Feat: 1d6 damage -20 to shield attack.
*By feat, I am referring to Improved Shield Bash.

Angelus_dead
05-17-2010, 11:26 AM
Best way, imo, to make it so that shield users can dual wield is to combine the fighting penalties for dual weapon fighting onto the shield hand and make the shield damage pathetic i.e.
Yes, something like that would be good. However, you appear a bit confused about what constitutes good damage. You are overestimating the importance of a weapon's base damage die, when really shields already have poor DPS due to the 20/x2 critical profile. That's why we never really see Fighters or Paladins hitting things with maces.

Pehtis
06-11-2010, 04:29 AM
Keeping this topic alive :)

Orratti
06-11-2010, 04:36 AM
Been said before that there is a need for greensteel shield crafting and adding in shield attacks into the animation to give S&B more boost or at least the option to attack with both the shield and the weapon for a few more attacks

Plus it doesn't make sense to have an entire chain of feats for both twf and thf without also having one for sword and shield unless you want to spend all your time turtled up and shieldbashing.

GhoulsTouch
06-11-2010, 05:12 AM
So you are proposing an attack sequence with the shield like Twf when a shield feat is taken? That would be awesome actually.

Turial
06-11-2010, 05:31 AM
See this happens a lot ... Most people agree with a suggestion so they don't really discuss it they just kinda nod their head and move on. In order to get the idea in the dev ears you have to use the male humpback whale mating method. Just spread it all over the place and hope that it gets in the right place and knocks the other similar ideas out.

*puts out the bacon*

I think that will work slightly better.

Note: Has the patent on bacon bar graphs in case they ever show up.

CaptGrim
06-11-2010, 10:03 AM
I posted this in a different thread but to keep it all in the same place I'm posting these ideas here as well.

I'm using the same mechanic as the TWF changes for consistency and ease of programming. Those changes are coming no matter the crying on the issues.

The goal is to buff s+b dps, and make S+B more tank like with additions to DR so that they serve an added benefit other than AC (which the TWF monk splashes can do better) You can spec for more damage, more DR or both at the cost of feats which for a tank specced warrior class, would make for an interesting tank speced build. I'd like to see TANKS tank Horoth and not just the highest hp toon you can find, so AC, DR , and melee threat all need to be relevant. Many of these numbers will need tweaked via play testing but I think they are in the ballpark as a good starting point.

Also many of these change SHOULD be easy to implement and I only added 1 feat, changed a few others added a few enhancements, and change some base numbers on items.


Damage buff and DR to shields

Change Shield Damage and add inherent,passive, and stacking DR, in addition to leaving the blocking DR boost.

Light d6 2DR
Heavy d8 3DR
Tower 2d4 4DR

you'd have to change Adamantine to add a +1 to these DR numbers also.


Shield Proc

Add a shield bash proc for a DPS increase to the fighting style.

Base 20% no feats
More with feats(keep reading)

shield feats

Imp. sheild bash. Keep AC boost while shield bashing and give a +20% proc rate to off hand shield bash procs.

Greater shield bash. In addition add +10% proc rate for total of 50% and on a vorpal 20 shield proc(or shield bash attack) add a stunning blow effect with the same DC and modifiers.

Shield mastery. +3 DR while Blocking +1 passive DR

Imp shield mastery. +6 DR while blocking +2 passive DR

Greater shield mastery. +9 DR while blocking +3 passive DR

So...

Base 20%
Imp bash 40%
grter bash 50% + stun chance on vorpal

Enhancements

Unlocked for any shield proficient class with imp shield bash

Shield threat 1 150% threat on damage produced by the shield

Shield threat 2 200% threat on damage produced by the shield

Shield threat 3 250% threat on damage produced by the shield

Add more shield magical properties

I think staying away from DPS effects would be a good Idea, and tactical buffs and debuffs would present some interesting options.

Vertigo
Weighted(stunning)
Sunder
Destruction
etc.

Also named/raid shield could have different things

Disruption
vorpal
Elemental damage
Peirce damage
Slashing damage
Impact
etc.

Udalric
06-12-2010, 02:12 PM
*Signed*

Pehtis
11-02-2010, 02:03 AM
Keeping the subject alive :)