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Weidman
04-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Well we tried using the AH but wow did it kill the whole pd experience, its amazing how 1 little rule change can ruin the whole deal , so i would deff advise against the use of the AH for anyone thinking of going down that path




ramstrez

parvo
04-29-2010, 07:59 AM
This is not a revelation. Although you should qualify the statement that it ruined PD fun for you (and maybe others in your guild). The base game is not balanced. In it's raw state, players can easily gain XP with little risk of dying. If there's no risk of dying, PD is just a tag and gameplay won't look any different than "normal" play. When I started Mortal Voyage, I realized, in order to make PD really fun for me, characters needed to be balanced against the environment. I try to do that, while keeping the rules as simple as possible.

One idea of balancing play with the auction house would be a quest level limit of +1 or +2 vs the character/group. Auction and broker can increase group power considerably, so it's reasonable to consistently take on quests over level.

Chai
04-29-2010, 02:07 PM
How many raids and epic quests have you done?

The high end game requires you to have these resources to beat quests, and takes this into account.

There are level 18 and 19 quests where the boss mob hits you with a cursed wound every 2 seconds, and I am not being sarcastic here, its every 2 seconds. You also need weapons with "good" and "silver" on them just to bypass DR on the mob, or you hit for so much less damage, that if your party doesnt have these weapons, you likely will not beat the encounter. Back to Korthos island for all members of the party.

The permadeathers in the game who are allowed to use the AH are doing these quests and surviving, while the ones who are not allowed to use the AH are capping in the low teens, dying in old world raids on normal difficulty, and not doing upwards of half of the game content, because they cant get their foot in the door.

Two words come to my mind when thinking of permadeath in DDO.

Balance, and Cooperation.

Balance - This is the huge debate in PD land. What is considered balanced? The game was designed with having the materials to win in mind, and having specific items and resources in your inventory often times means using the AH. Alot of PD guilds who dont use the AH start to fall behind here in the upper mid levels. Some of the best tactical players I have met play in PD guilds, but they cant beat a good portion of the mid level and upper end content due to a heavy gear disparity.

You want to say using the AH is unbalanced. I say the opposite. Not using the AH and brokers is unbalanced, in the context of the understanding in which this game was created, which is having the materials AND the skill to win. The proof positive here again lies with the fact that people who do not use the AH are capping out in the low teens. The few high level people that do exist under these circumstances dont have people to group with.

Having a huge amount of player skill and cooperation in a tight knit group does not account for a countering a cursed wound every 2 seconds. You cannot heal with these on you and they have to be removed at an alarming rate to win. Skillful play does not account for needing a specific weapon with 2 specific adjectives on it in order to damage a mob. This is but one example of one quest. There are many others.

Cooperation - This is the one that PD style of play got right, because not to cooperate means character death, which is a much larger set back in PD than it is in non PD. Again, some of the best tactical forced cooperation style players I have met in DDO are playing permadeath. Its a shame that many of them cannot run the higher level content due to item acquisition ability restrictions.

PD shroud for instance, could happen, easily. Its not that you guys dont have the skill to win, but mostly just lack the resources, due to self imposed rules.

Ninjaofthesea
04-29-2010, 02:21 PM
The AH helps determine the ceiling of your PD experience. If you do not allow access to it, your ceiling will be low to mid-teen content. Allowing it, kicks it up a notch raising the stakes and allows you to be challenged by higher end content.

I was recently involved in a mid-teens party wipe involving the blue dragon in The Tor (our first time in). We may have gotten a little cocky after defeating the white. I can definitely say the risk is there and it was a hell of a lot more exciting and satisfying than a party wipe in Splinterskull.

+1 Rep to Chai

~Zornochio
04-29-2010, 03:45 PM
The permadeathers in the game who are allowed to use the AH are doing these quests and surviving, while the ones who are not allowed to use the AH are capping in the low teens, dying in old world raids on normal difficulty, and not doing upwards of half of the game content, because they cant get their foot in the door.

Actually, the guilds that don't allow AH are capping in the low teens because they constantly run quests at and above their level. They are slowly but surely inching their way to higher levels. High end raids may not be likely for guilds like Mortal Voyage and The Core but the players knew that going in.

I'm not trying to say any PD guild is better than the others, just that they have different goals.

Chai
04-29-2010, 04:02 PM
Actually, the guilds that don't allow AH are capping in the low teens because they constantly run quests at and above their level. They are slowly but surely inching their way to higher levels. High end raids may not be likely for guilds like Mortal Voyage and The Core but the players knew that going in.

I'm not trying to say any PD guild is better than the others, just that they have different goals.

Sure, I understand this.

This issue isnt skill, its gear. They can inch their way all they want, but when that high level toon does die in an upper mid level quest, was it due to lack of skill, or lack of resources.

I could take an Ur, Lessa, Ged, Jupe, Rese, Tupe, and yourself into a place like the shroud, permadeath style, and we could win, as long as the resources are there. There is no lack of skill in the PD community I have seen to date.

At this point, the Reaver can be soloed while everyone else pikes at the door. :p

Its getting past Tor thats tougher for PD.

Weidman
04-29-2010, 05:36 PM
That may be true it did take away from our guild , that may not be true for other pd guilds, but nice idea bout the +1 or 2 if ah is used

parvo
04-29-2010, 10:48 PM
How many raids and epic quests have you done?

The high end game requires you to have these resources to beat quests, and takes this into account.

There are level 18 and 19 quests where the boss mob hits you with a cursed wound every 2 seconds, and I am not being sarcastic here, its every 2 seconds. You also need weapons with "good" and "silver" on them just to bypass DR on the mob, or you hit for so much less damage, that if your party doesnt have these weapons, you likely will not beat the encounter. Back to Korthos island for all members of the party.

The permadeathers in the game who are allowed to use the AH are doing these quests and surviving, while the ones who are not allowed to use the AH are capping in the low teens, dying in old world raids on normal difficulty, and not doing upwards of half of the game content, because they cant get their foot in the door.

Two words come to my mind when thinking of permadeath in DDO.

Balance, and Cooperation.

Balance - This is the huge debate in PD land. What is considered balanced? The game was designed with having the materials to win in mind, and having specific items and resources in your inventory often times means using the AH. Alot of PD guilds who dont use the AH start to fall behind here in the upper mid levels. Some of the best tactical players I have met play in PD guilds, but they cant beat a good portion of the mid level and upper end content due to a heavy gear disparity.

You want to say using the AH is unbalanced. I say the opposite. Not using the AH and brokers is unbalanced, in the context of the understanding in which this game was created, which is having the materials AND the skill to win. The proof positive here again lies with the fact that people who do not use the AH are capping out in the low teens. The few high level people that do exist under these circumstances dont have people to group with.

Having a huge amount of player skill and cooperation in a tight knit group does not account for a countering a cursed wound every 2 seconds. You cannot heal with these on you and they have to be removed at an alarming rate to win. Skillful play does not account for needing a specific weapon with 2 specific adjectives on it in order to damage a mob. This is but one example of one quest. There are many others.

Cooperation - This is the one that PD style of play got right, because not to cooperate means character death, which is a much larger set back in PD than it is in non PD. Again, some of the best tactical forced cooperation style players I have met in DDO are playing permadeath. Its a shame that many of them cannot run the higher level content due to item acquisition ability restrictions.

PD shroud for instance, could happen, easily. Its not that you guys dont have the skill to win, but mostly just lack the resources, due to self imposed rules.

There are different philosophies. Mine is that character progression should be an accomplishment. I suppose maybe there are some quests so tough you need capped characters with twinked out gear, but getting up to them by consistently doing quest below character level with fully loaded out gear sets, to a lot of PDers, is not fun. Most players with that mindset are playing non-PD. A lot of the players I play with could probably cap pretty easy if they wanted to use the auction and quest below level, but to them it's more about the fun of consistent challanges.

Having said that, there are ways to make character progression an accomplishment while using the auction house. But I haven't seen any rule sets that do so.

parvo
04-29-2010, 11:17 PM
The AH helps determine the ceiling of your PD experience. If you do not allow access to it, your ceiling will be low to mid-teen content. Allowing it, kicks it up a notch raising the stakes and allows you to be challenged by higher end content.

I was recently involved in a mid-teens party wipe involving the blue dragon in The Tor (our first time in). We may have gotten a little cocky after defeating the white. I can definitely say the risk is there and it was a hell of a lot more exciting and satisfying than a party wipe in Splinterskull.

+1 Rep to Chai

While the auction house is a factor the bigger factor is character level relative to quest and quest selection in general. My magic happy place is one that consistently requires skill, teamwork, persevearance and maybe a little luck to progress. I can still have fun in quests like splinterskull if the characters are below level. Regardless of a rule set or philosophy, permadeath players are attempting to make the game harder and therefore more fun. Naturally our tolerances for difficulty vary. It's good there are different rule sets to cover that variance. I think there's room for more. I'm still waiting for someone to create a true permadeath guild with no raises whatsoever... I imagine some day it will happen.

parvo
04-29-2010, 11:46 PM
Sure, I understand this.

This issue isnt skill, its gear. They can inch their way all they want, but when that high level toon does die in an upper mid level quest, was it due to lack of skill, or lack of resources.

I could take an Ur, Lessa, Ged, Jupe, Rese, Tupe, and yourself into a place like the shroud, permadeath style, and we could win, as long as the resources are there. There is no lack of skill in the PD community I have seen to date.

At this point, the Reaver can be soloed while everyone else pikes at the door. :p

Its getting past Tor thats tougher for PD.

Chai, I think you're wrong. The reason some PD guilds are dying before they get to cap has more to do with consistently running tougher content than it does gear. Even without the auction house or brokers, I'm pretty sure most skilled PD players can get to high levels by grinding out quests below their character. Think of it from a statistical standpoint. Group A and Group B. Both groups have to complete 300 quests to achieve cap of 20. Group A selects quests such that it has a 1% chance of dying per quest. Group B selects quests such that it has 10% chance of dying per quest. On average, members of Group A, will live longer and reach higher levels.

In May of 2009, MV revamped rules because even though we didn't use auction house, just broker access and free quest selection was allowing quite easy character progression. In fact, prior to that time, without auction, Mortal Voyage was running as high or higher content as Sublime.

melkor1702
04-30-2010, 12:15 AM
I have a number of characters in the mid teen to capped levels of this game and none of them have ever bought a weapon, item or armour off the auction house or vendor. I have sold many things to both but have not bought anything.

I try to limit my twinking of my characters to sharing tapestries, relics and vale ingredients between the toons and the occasional stack of pots or wands. I've managed to do all the raids in the game except the abbot without needing to resort to buying gear of the auction house.

All the auction house/vendors allow a play to do is get the gear with out having to run the quests to get them themselves. It allows impatient or lazy people to do it faster, not better.

Edit: I should have mentioned that I'm not a permadeath player although interested in giving it a go, I just have imposed my own limited non-twink ruleset to my characters.

My point was you can run end game content with end game guilds without rely on buying the leet gear from the AH or vendors.

Chai
04-30-2010, 10:31 AM
I have a number of characters in the mid teen to capped levels of this game and none of them have ever bought a weapon, item or armour off the auction house or vendor. I have sold many things to both but have not bought anything.

I try to limit my twinking of my characters to sharing tapestries, relics and vale ingredients between the toons and the occasional stack of pots or wands. I've managed to do all the raids in the game except the abbot without needing to resort to buying gear of the auction house.

All the auction house/vendors allow a play to do is get the gear with out having to run the quests to get them themselves. It allows impatient or lazy people to do it faster, not better.

Edit: I should have mentioned that I'm not a permadeath player although interested in giving it a go, I just have imposed my own limited non-twink ruleset to my characters.

My point was you can run end game content with end game guilds without rely on buying the leet gear from the AH or vendors.

Not really.

Yeah, you can get lucky and pull a boss beater weapon (silver AND good on the same weapon for instance) or a greater bane weapon, but you are not going to survive on the mana potions you pull alone, nor will you survive in the high end game on the remove curse / disease potions you pull alone. There are aspects of the game skill doesnt account for.

Needing a high to hit in epic quests is a good example. There are mobs in these quests that have AC in the 70s. I dont consider it lazy to search the auction hall for +5 greater bane weapons for different types of mobs for my level 20 toons. This is smart play. When I am attacking trash mobs and I can hit them more often than not, I know that each and every plus those weapons are giving me counts. Having access to the AH, and end game gear, was taken into account when creating these quests, and people are imbalancing themselves when not using the resources available to stay in the game at these levels.

I understand people do this on purpose to create more of a challenge in all levels of the game, but this is why they are capping in the mid levels. When they finally do die off, its not usually due to lack of skill, but lack of resources.

Gandalfs_Ghost
04-30-2010, 10:42 AM
I have a number of characters in the mid teen to capped levels of this game and none of them have ever bought a weapon, item or armour off the auction house or vendor. I have sold many things to both but have not bought anything.

I try to limit my twinking of my characters to sharing tapestries, relics and vale ingredients between the toons and the occasional stack of pots or wands. I've managed to do all the raids in the game except the abbot without needing to resort to buying gear of the auction house.

All the auction house/vendors allow a play to do is get the gear with out having to run the quests to get them themselves. It allows impatient or lazy people to do it faster, not better.

Edit: I should have mentioned that I'm not a permadeath player although interested in giving it a go, I just have imposed my own limited non-twink ruleset to my characters.

My point was you can run end game content with end game guilds without rely on buying the leet gear from the AH or vendors.

But you are relying on the rest of the group to complete end-game content/raids. And probably everything else. In pd one wipe and its back to korthos. One could argue that the lazy impatient one is the person who doesn't bother to equip oneself appropriately and instead relies on others to make up for their shortcomings.

I do agree that if one does play in a pd guild that allows the AH/brokers and you are not then running appropriately challenging content then there really is no difference between that and any other guild or pug. For me the excitement of running tangleroot on hard/elite with level 3-4 toons (or whatever) really isnt there, boringgggg, but stepping into say Mired in Kobolds or Rainbow in the Dark or the final Dreaming Dark quest or Prey of the Hunter or... whatever (especially the first time) with a pd toon, very intense. Losing a <10 level toon in pd? Pfft, who cares. Losing a level 15 or 18? Brutal. But that's my opinion, and that's why there's a variety of pd guilds.

Chai
04-30-2010, 11:12 AM
Chai, I think you're wrong. The reason some PD guilds are dying before they get to cap has more to do with consistently running tougher content than it does gear. Even without the auction house or brokers, I'm pretty sure most skilled PD players can get to high levels by grinding out quests below their character. Think of it from a statistical standpoint. Group A and Group B. Both groups have to complete 300 quests to achieve cap of 20. Group A selects quests such that it has a 1% chance of dying per quest. Group B selects quests such that it has 10% chance of dying per quest. On average, members of Group A, will live longer and reach higher levels.

In May of 2009, MV revamped rules because even though we didn't use auction house, just broker access and free quest selection was allowing quite easy character progression. In fact, prior to that time, without auction, Mortal Voyage was running as high or higher content as Sublime.

Just because its not literally written into a ruleset doesnt mean people arent pushing themselves. This is something that is self policed anyhow, so whether it is written into a guild charter or not isnt really relevant.

My point still stands. If you are stepping into a higher level quest than the average character level in your group, and your group dies off, in most cases, was it because of lack of skill, or lack of resources to pull a completion off? Be honest with yourself here. Your comment regarding playing higher level content just enforces what I said, and is not contraticting it. I dont see any lack of skill in PD, I see lack of resources, through self restriction.

I see that you guys could acheive alot more with a slight losening of the rules to accomodate the way the game was designed to become progressively harder and logarithmically more resource intensive after level 14 or so. I would love to see PD raids more often, and not just the old world stuff that you can do ~level 10.

Chai
04-30-2010, 11:25 AM
But you are relying on the rest of the group to complete end-game content/raids. And probably everything else. In pd one wipe and its back to korthos. One could argue that the lazy impatient one is the person who doesn't bother to equip oneself appropriately and instead relies on others to make up for their shortcomings. .

This is called a pileon - where the character piles onto the raid group, and no matter how much they try, they cant help much due to lack of gear / resources / build strength.


I do agree that if one does play in a pd guild that allows the AH/brokers and you are not then running appropriately challenging content then there really is no difference between that and any other guild or pug. For me the excitement of running tangleroot on hard/elite with level 3-4 toons (or whatever) really isnt there, boringgggg, but stepping into say Mired in Kobolds or Rainbow in the Dark or the final Dreaming Dark quest or Prey of the Hunter or... whatever (especially the first time) with a pd toon, very intense. Losing a <10 level toon in pd? Pfft, who cares. Losing a level 15 or 18? Brutal. But that's my opinion, and that's why there's a variety of pd guilds.

Most of these people dont get to 18, due to self imposed rules. The ones that do get criticized by the ones that dont because they have access to the resources needed to complete quests, which to the people who restrict their rulesets more, is too easy, but to those of us who know better, is necessary. I want to see PD shroud, VOD, Hound, and more, but its not going to happen without the correct resources.

parvo
04-30-2010, 05:33 PM
Just because its not literally written into a ruleset doesnt mean people arent pushing themselves. This is something that is self policed anyhow, so whether it is written into a guild charter or not isnt really relevant.

I've seen PD play without quest selection rules, so you can try to tell that to someone who hasn't. Quest selection relative to character level is the ultimate determination of risk.


My point still stands. If you are stepping into a higher level quest than the average character level in your group, and your group dies off, in most cases, was it because of lack of skill, or lack of resources to pull a completion off? Be honest with yourself here...

OK, honestly...Given a quest of appropriate level and you fail to complete...if your on normal difficulty, you suck. On hard, you messed up. On elite, you weren't playing your best game. Again, it's less about gear and more about quest selection.


I see that you guys could acheive alot more with a slight losening of the rules to accomodate the way the game was designed to become progressively harder and logarithmically more resource intensive after level 14 or so. I would love to see PD raids more often, and not just the old world stuff that you can do ~level 10.

When you say "you guys" I assume you mean Mortal Voyage and The Core. When you say "you guys could achieve a lot more" your ignoring that character progression in those guilds is an accomplishment. In rule sets which limit easy XP, a mid level character is a very nice accomplishment. You also incorrectly assume that "we guys" won't progress farther. We certainly will. When consistently running appropriate level quests it takes longer and is more risky, but some will get there.

Again, you are ignoring prior to May 2009, despite not using the auction house or buying magic consumables, there were more high level characters in MV than Sublime or EE. At that time, MV was challenging content as high or higher than Sublime or EE. But I don't value high level questing as much as I value consistent tough questing. What's different now? In addition to dissalowing brokers, MV now has quest selection rules that limit easy XP. Furthermore the environment itself changed. The level cap increased allowing guilds without quest selection rules to run level 14-18 quests with level 16-20 characters, therefore providing easy XP for high level characters.

Duncani_Daho
05-01-2010, 07:52 AM
Not really.

Yeah, you can get lucky and pull a boss beater weapon (silver AND good on the same weapon for instance) or a greater bane weapon, but you are not going to survive on the mana potions you pull alone, nor will you survive in the high end game on the remove curse / disease potions you pull alone. There are aspects of the game skill doesnt account for.

Needing a high to hit in epic quests is a good example. There are mobs in these quests that have AC in the 70s. I dont consider it lazy to search the auction hall for +5 greater bane weapons for different types of mobs for my level 20 toons. This is smart play. When I am attacking trash mobs and I can hit them more often than not, I know that each and every plus those weapons are giving me counts. Having access to the AH, and end game gear, was taken into account when creating these quests, and people are imbalancing themselves when not using the resources available to stay in the game at these levels.

I understand people do this on purpose to create more of a challenge in all levels of the game, but this is why they are capping in the mid levels. When they finally do die off, its not usually due to lack of skill, but lack of resources.

Chai,

I think you're talking about epic quests and raids, which consist of %5 of total game content. For me, they are cool quests and a lot of fun to play in a non-pd setting. My four-year old non-pd 28-point build elf ranger/fighter (Nicomo on Khyber) has run them all and uses every means possible to reach maximum potential. Except I refuse to farm the Shroud for scales and don't care if I ever have a greensteel item.

I just put icy burst on a +5 holy burst handax of pure good. It's fun to go into epic quests and take on those mobs dual-wielding a couple of uber weaps. Nicomo now has 16 epic tokens and is considering a TR to become a strength-based build instead of a weapons finese tempest.

But there is NO WAY I would want to level him up in pug groups. And no possible way I would level up any other character outside a non-pd guild.

PD players worry about having the weapons to take on Arritriekos in the same way that mountain climbers worry about having a ski lift to get to the top. It just doesn't make a bit of sense to talk about how PD groups are going to run Offering of Blood on epic.

In The Core, we will settle for Offering of Blood on hard (since we must run it at the highest available difficulty). We don't shrine or twink our builds so it's not like we are going to go charging in there willy-nilly. I'd like to be in a full, balanced party before I give it a run. But I have a level 12 barbarian/rogue/ranger with a +4 frost greatax-- he'd probably be good enough. Or I could bring in my level 12 drow assassin who still uses the Sharn nicked shortsword from time to time. He might be a good fit for that one. Or I could venture in with Mojejido, guild leader and 28-point build elf wizard. He could cast limited crowd-control spells and save his mana for big blasts of arcane might in the boss fights. Or perhaps my level 12 warchanter/barbarian, Moslizax, still wielding Carnifex, would be the best choice.

I just know this: running it in The Core will be TEN TIMES more exciting than the epic runs Nicomo has done recently with pug groups.

We'll worry about getting to run in the Inspired Quarter when the time comes. First, Desert and Gianthold quests; then Orchard; then the Vale; and don't worry about missing out on Reaver or Tor runs because we're still having a blast seeing 95% of the game in the most thrilling way possible-- hardcore (no shrines), no xp penalty for being over level, and using teamwork.

Duncani_Daho
05-01-2010, 08:16 AM
I agree with Parvo that quest selection is the biggest factor in determining challenge. That's why I was trying to think of a way to offer extra incentive (glory isn't good enough sometimes) to run the quests that are seldom run in The Core. The impetus came from the sigils in the new Sentinels series: with the reward item and 3 sigils you can upgrade it into a very nice weapon, helm, etc. Complete a milestone and it allows you to transfer a sigil to a toon that needs one. Guild rules don't allow the transfer of anything to anyone, except via chest, so in The Core it's nearly impossible to get the required sigils from the Sentinels series to upgrade the items.

Concerning challenge, maybe I'll make up a list of quests, a road map of pure challenge, and see if the PD community has any thoughts or cares to add to it. And then maybe run them all with a static group of True Reincarnated as a side project. Maybe we could even throw in Parvo's "no raise dead or resurrection" at all, ever, rule.

Each level your group must pass a Milestone Quest before you can level up. It might start off something like this:

Milestone 1: Kobold assault on hard before you reach level 3.

Milestone 2: Swiped Signet on hard before you reach level 4.

Milestone 3: Proof Is in the Poison on hard before you reach level 5.

Milestone 4: Necropolis "Tomb/Heart" series on hard before level 6.

Milestone 5: Gladewatch Outpost Defense on hard before level 7.

Milestone 6: Devil's Assault on NORMAL before you reach level 8.

Milestone 7: Xorian Cipher on hard before you reach level 9.

Milestone 8: The Pit on ELITE before you reach level 10.

Milestone 9: Threnal Ruins (west, east, south) on hard before level 11.

Milestone 10: Dreams of Insanity on hard before you reach level 12.

Milestone 11: Necropolis 3rd Tier series before you reach level 13.

Milestone 12: how are you still alive???

You get the idea. Additionally, there would be an overall restriction: must run in quests at least 1 level over the party. I think such a structure would provide a ton of challenge and excitement. Using the AH probably wouldn't help you that much, but it would be open for debate.

But here's the point: Parvo says Mortal Voyage never runs quests under their level, but there is one huge exception he doesn't mention. And we also allow it in The Core: if the quest is part of a series or chain, you look at the level of the finale to see if you can run it. That ends up being a SIGNIFICANT number of quests you are running over level. Shan-to-Kor's finale is a level 5 on normal. So if you want to run it at level 7 on elite, you can. And the first two quests will give you decent xp while you run above level.

Waterworks and Splinterskull is the same way. As is Deleras. Just take those four series: running them on hard and elite can provide a ton of xp while you are above level for much of it. The Milestone structure I mentioned above would address some of that. Even with a quest-level restriction you can cherry pick quests to reduce risk. I do it. But the Milestone structure wouldn't allow character advancement unless you face the bogeyman.

Edit: since I know it's coming, "Why do you want to play in a permadeath guild if you are concerned about limiting risk?" On a spectrum of 1-10, where 1 is very little risk (like under level in a lot of big xp quests and chains) and 10 being a VERY good chance someone will die, I don't like to run in the 8-9 risk range every quest. And I will certainly run in the 1-3 risk range at times to get quick xp-- that's with all the guild rules in place of no-shrining, no twinking, no xp penalty for being over level. But something like Taming The Flames on hard, with max level 6 characters, is certainly challenging and could be extremely fun, but not with everyone of my nearly two dozen characters in The Core.

~Zornochio
05-01-2010, 09:24 AM
We've got a static group going in Sublime already that is similar to that. There are no quests set in stone we are just running anything that seems like it would be a good challenging run, doing hard or elite underlevel. It's been a lot of fun so far.

level1: Korthos Hard
level2: Waterworks Hard
level3: Sharn Hard
level3-4: Tangleroot Hard, Purge the Heretics Hard
level5: planning on deleras next, we should hit 5 just in time for Necromancer

I suggested Proof is in the Poison but I almost got thrown out of the group for it :) We are toying with the idea of trying VON at level 10. It won't be pretty but would at least be a fitting end for the group if we don't make it :D

LunaCee
05-01-2010, 09:29 AM
That list looks very doable really... With my WF intimi/tactics tank just a couple days ago I completed Prison of the Planes on normal at level 10 with a party.

I figure the fact that it was three to four levels above the party should count for something even though it was on normal. (granted the cleric was level 11... having the Heal spell DEFINITELY helped) :) It was certainly challenging at a few spots. Though it really was pretty satisfying to just walk into the Shavarath chamber, stance up and intimidate the maralith and see nothing but long strings of 0's float above my character's head.

But really smart play, a decent build, fairly easy to acquire gear (say a Vertigo +4 to boost trip DC to low to mid 30's), and a party willing to make a group effort can go a long ways.

Chai
05-01-2010, 01:32 PM
I've seen PD play without quest selection rules, so you can try to tell that to someone who hasn't. Quest selection relative to character level is the ultimate determination of risk.



OK, honestly...Given a quest of appropriate level and you fail to complete...if your on normal difficulty, you suck. On hard, you messed up. On elite, you weren't playing your best game. Again, it's less about gear and more about quest selection.



When you say "you guys" I assume you mean Mortal Voyage and The Core. When you say "you guys could achieve a lot more" your ignoring that character progression in those guilds is an accomplishment. In rule sets which limit easy XP, a mid level character is a very nice accomplishment. You also incorrectly assume that "we guys" won't progress farther. We certainly will. When consistently running appropriate level quests it takes longer and is more risky, but some will get there.

Again, you are ignoring prior to May 2009, despite not using the auction house or buying magic consumables, there were more high level characters in MV than Sublime or EE. At that time, MV was challenging content as high or higher than Sublime or EE. But I don't value high level questing as much as I value consistent tough questing. What's different now? In addition to dissalowing brokers, MV now has quest selection rules that limit easy XP. Furthermore the environment itself changed. The level cap increased allowing guilds without quest selection rules to run level 14-18 quests with level 16-20 characters, therefore providing easy XP for high level characters.

/casts max empowered extended wall of text:

Yet again, your statements apply inthe level 1-14 game only. Once you get into the higher level content, you cannot complete without having specific resporces. You dont even need to be completely twinked out to do this, just have a few specific weapons, immunities or ways to counter certain effects that get spammed onto you regularly, and you are ready to go.

My play is not limited to one style, or one PD guild as you claim it is. I have played in completely restricting rulesets. I have played iron man. I have played in semi restricting rulesets, and I have played non PD in full on end game situations. You keep comparing PD rulesets like it even makes a difference. What you are not realizing is your statement is only true until you reach higher levels. Once there, "risk" is more determined by resource acquisition. The statement I am making cannot be quantified or proven by comparing MV, EE, and Sublime. Do you have the correct specific items needed to beat the quest, yes or no.

And all the claims of running quests with overlevel toons are incorrect. again, what you are referring to is self policed. The fact that it is written into your guild charter while not written into others is_not_relevant. I can see I am convincing no one though. The beauty of the truth is I dont need to convince you or anyone else to believe it to be true.

My goal, is to get permadeath players running higher level content. They can do it with the correct resources. They will not be able to do it without the right resources. This is not twinking, because a level 16-20 toon has every right to have the resources to beat the content they play in, and also has the ability to earn those resources. The fact that you and many others dont believe this, is exactly why we havent seen PD shroud, VOD, or Hound as of yet, 4 years into the game. Each time I make this claim, you respond with "we will get there". Your own resource restrictions are keeping you from this, not lack of skill or ability.

P.S. the single largest "easy button" in any MMO is metagaming, and not gear imbalance. Knowing where the traps are, what mobs are in the next room, and what needs to be done to complete a quest is a much higher contributing factor to what you call easy xp, than any amount of gear possibly could be. I can zerg plow waterworks on a starter toon on elite, because I know everything about the quest. So can any of you. I can put experienced players who have run the Pit 100 times into that quest with next to nothing and they would complete, where I would put a bunch of monte hall twinked out the wazoo toons into the same quest played by first timers, and they would fail. My point is, you are pushing the biggest easy button in the game every day. And somehow you have the guile to post that your ruleset that is self policed anyhow, somehow makes your accomplishments more earned, because you avoid a different "easy button" that doesnt even have anywhere near as much of an impact as the one you already push daily? Pahleez! Again I see that I am not convincing anyone other than people who already believe as I do. This doesnt stop me from telling the truth however....

Your interpretation:


OK, honestly...Given a quest of appropriate level and you fail to complete...if your on normal difficulty, you suck. On hard, you messed up. On elite, you weren't playing your best game.

The truth:

OK, honestly...Given a quest of appropriate level and you fail to complete...if your on normal difficulty, you're probably new and couldnt metagame your way through it. On hard or elite, you werent listening to the other metagamers who have already run it enough to get you through it blindfolded.

Or: you were killed by the dice. Anyone can roll a 1, even on casual, with smooth jazz playing in the background and zerging platfarmers playing your toon with gear that is so enchanted it glows in the dark, so you dont need a light source...

Chai
05-01-2010, 02:10 PM
We've got a static group going in Sublime already that is similar to that. There are no quests set in stone we are just running anything that seems like it would be a good challenging run, doing hard or elite underlevel. It's been a lot of fun so far.

level1: Korthos Hard
level2: Waterworks Hard
level3: Sharn Hard
level3-4: Tangleroot Hard, Purge the Heretics Hard
level5: planning on deleras next, we should hit 5 just in time for Necromancer

I suggested Proof is in the Poison but I almost got thrown out of the group for it :) We are toying with the idea of trying VON at level 10. It won't be pretty but would at least be a fitting end for the group if we don't make it :D

Yeah and I dont recall doing something on normal as of yet. In fact, the only reason the crazies didnt open many on elite is because the game forces you to run hard first. Self policed. I dont need to see this written into a charter and signed by john hancock just to make it happen. Even if it is, its still self policed.

Deleras part 1 hard has happened. Level 4 toons. We even lost someone. Some of us hit level 5 when in there. Perfect, as you need to be 5 to get into necro anyhow. Necro on hard will be what, a level 9 quest? :p

Chai
05-01-2010, 02:22 PM
Chai,

I think you're talking about epic quests and raids, which consist of %5 of total game content. For me, they are cool quests and a lot of fun to play in a non-pd setting. My four-year old non-pd 28-point build elf ranger/fighter (Nicomo on Khyber) has run them all and uses every means possible to reach maximum potential. Except I refuse to farm the Shroud for scales and don't care if I ever have a greensteel item.

I just put icy burst on a +5 holy burst handax of pure good. It's fun to go into epic quests and take on those mobs dual-wielding a couple of uber weaps. Nicomo now has 16 epic tokens and is considering a TR to become a strength-based build instead of a weapons finese tempest.

But there is NO WAY I would want to level him up in pug groups. And no possible way I would level up any other character outside a non-pd guild.

PD players worry about having the weapons to take on Arritriekos in the same way that mountain climbers worry about having a ski lift to get to the top. It just doesn't make a bit of sense to talk about how PD groups are going to run Offering of Blood on epic.

In The Core, we will settle for Offering of Blood on hard (since we must run it at the highest available difficulty). We don't shrine or twink our builds so it's not like we are going to go charging in there willy-nilly. I'd like to be in a full, balanced party before I give it a run. But I have a level 12 barbarian/rogue/ranger with a +4 frost greatax-- he'd probably be good enough. Or I could bring in my level 12 drow assassin who still uses the Sharn nicked shortsword from time to time. He might be a good fit for that one. Or I could venture in with Mojejido, guild leader and 28-point build elf wizard. He could cast limited crowd-control spells and save his mana for big blasts of arcane might in the boss fights. Or perhaps my level 12 warchanter/barbarian, Moslizax, still wielding Carnifex, would be the best choice.

I just know this: running it in The Core will be TEN TIMES more exciting than the epic runs Nicomo has done recently with pug groups.

We'll worry about getting to run in the Inspired Quarter when the time comes. First, Desert and Gianthold quests; then Orchard; then the Vale; and don't worry about missing out on Reaver or Tor runs because we're still having a blast seeing 95% of the game in the most thrilling way possible-- hardcore (no shrines), no xp penalty for being over level, and using teamwork.

While I can agree with most of what you are saying, I think 4 years of permadeath gaming and still making the old "we will get there" statement seems futile. Shroud is a mid level raid now. The flag quests are level 16. I think it can be done. the Reaver can be soloed, no shrines, since he super charges your mana anyhow. The other 11 players are just piking for the most part nowdays. TOR is more of a challenge, but with no shrines it likely wont be done. I like PD, and I dont think its too much of a stretch to enjoy higher end content. It just means having a few more resources.

parvo
05-01-2010, 03:13 PM
Chai,
OK, your on record as believing PD characters can not progress past level 14 without auction house, brokers and easy rules. We can file that in a drawer that's already been filled with naysaying before you. I guess when I get another character to 14, I'll just delete because every level 15+ quest requires specific gear I won't have. The only solution seems to be making the entire game so easy PD play is meaningless.

Your other belief that some of the highest content in the game can be done in PD with access to almost everything non-PD has, isn't exactly going out on a limb. I assume skilled non-PD groups get through most quests without a wipe and that's really all you have to do. I guess my only question there is why haven't you already done it?

Chai
05-01-2010, 05:08 PM
Chai,
OK, your on record as believing PD characters can not progress past level 14 without auction house, brokers and easy rules. We can file that in a drawer that's already been filled with naysaying before you. I guess when I get another character to 14, I'll just delete because every level 15+ quest requires specific gear I won't have. The only solution seems to be making the entire game so easy PD play is meaningless.

Your other belief that some of the highest content in the game can be done in PD with access to almost everything non-PD has, isn't exactly going out on a limb. I assume skilled non-PD groups get through most quests without a wipe and that's really all you have to do. I guess my only question there is why haven't you already done it?

You sir, are being too much of an absolutist, with your level 14 making it to level 15 arguement. What I am saying is you are hedging your bets against yourself, against ever being able to do the content you claim you will be able to do someday.

There are quests that require you to have specific resources in order to win. No level of skill overcomes a cursed wound every 2 seconds without resources. This is one example.

Duncans analogy is partially correct, however when you complete the analogy, it clearly explains what I am trying to explain perfectly.



PD players worry about having the weapons to take on Arritriekos in the same way that mountain climbers worry about having a ski lift to get to the top. It just doesn't make a bit of sense to talk about how PD groups are going to run Offering of Blood on epic.



Completing the analogy: I have met a few people who climb mountains as a hobby, and some make it more difficult on themselves than others as a challenge, but NONE of them are EVER satisfied with getting 2/3 of the way to the top, over and over again.

~Zornochio
05-01-2010, 06:30 PM
Completing the analogy: I have met a few people who climb mountains as a hobby, and some make it more difficult on themselves than others as a challenge, but NONE of them are EVER satisfied with getting 2/3 of the way to the top, over and over again.


The different PD guilds have different goals though, level 20 is not the top of the mountian for MV and The Core... sure it would be nice to get there someday but that is not what those guilds are about.

parvo
05-01-2010, 07:19 PM
You sir, are being too much of an absolutist, with your level 14 making it to level 15 arguement. What I am saying is you are hedging your bets against yourself, against ever being able to do the content you claim you will be able to do someday.

There are quests that require you to have specific resources in order to win. No level of skill overcomes a cursed wound every 2 seconds without resources. This is one example.

Duncans analogy is partially correct, however when you complete the analogy, it clearly explains what I am trying to explain perfectly.



Completing the analogy: I have met a few people who climb mountains as a hobby, and some make it more difficult on themselves than others as a challenge, but NONE of them are EVER satisfied with getting 2/3 of the way to the top, over and over again.

OK Chai. So your on record that there are a couple of quests that require Auction House gear? Why didn't you just say that.

There aren't a whole lot of mountan climbers who prefer a chair lift to the top either.

parvo
05-01-2010, 11:42 PM
BTW, Mo, when we ran sentinals the first time, we gave all the sigils to Whee. He was able to score an upgraded weapon from the first run. On my character's second run for elite, I pulled all three sigils and upgraded the armor bracers that I had chosen for end reward the first time through.

Chai
05-01-2010, 11:45 PM
OK Chai. So your on record that there are a couple of quests that require Auction House gear? Why didn't you just say that.

There aren't a whole lot of mountan climbers who prefer a chair lift to the top either.

Again absolutism.

Its not "a couple quests". I give one example and now we are all literal and stuff.

The resource necessity increases on a pretty steep curve in the higher levels. You probably know where this curve starts. Its right around where permadeath gets hard to the point where you dont even have a full group of that level in the guild to roll with on a daily basis, because the toons are either dead, or there isnt a full group of them to roll with consistantly. Its no longer a 10% failure rate like you claim, but playing by your same rules, this failure rate begins to increase, exponentially, and ramps up even higher the next tier you go to.

And whats with the "on record" stuff. You carring a pocket stenographer or something? I know halflings have many talents and such but....

If you really require an absolutist statement to put me on record for, try "you need to be able to acquire specific resources liberally to play high end content in DDO." There, I said it. Have your pygmy drow record it and lock it away in your little mythical file cabinet, and pull it out when you get there. Will it be another 4 years?

Every time you start talking this stuff about people not playing by harder rulesets not being as skilled or not earning it like you do, I hope either myself or someone who has similar views on the game is there to pull your card. I think rolling a high end toon and running some end game content would put some perspective on the statements you make.

You see how hard a raid like VOD for example, can be with having to coordinate higher end groups to do certain things at certain times, and then knowing that there are people who soloed this, on elite. Yeah we challenge ourselves, probably harder than you do metagaming the same quests over and over again with low end gear. We like to keep it pushin round here. You just dont see it, or experience it, so you make your little comments. Buck up, and roll the content. Ive played most of the content iron man style. I have played in lesser restricting PD rulesets. I have done full on vet status zerg plow to level 20 raid toons. I can make these statements because I've seen all sides.

Duncani_Daho
05-01-2010, 11:56 PM
Chai,

Regarding metagaming and foreknowledge, yes, you have a point. Knowing what's around the corner certainly helps you plan, execute, and survive. But you forgot to mention that both Mortal Voyage and The Core ran the five new Sentinels quests and I believe all those quests were completed without a death.

So here we just had a ton of fun crawling through brand new content with characters who were not overpowered for the quest, and with players who had zero metagaming to rely on. The experience was it's own reward. It would have killed the experience to be in a pug group with a guy who bought top of the line weapons and zerged ahead of the group. I think the Dev's know, THAT experience by some players is the biggest hurdle for DDO to retain players.

Why are you so eager to see permadeath groups in the Shroud and Hound? And do you agree that besides the raids PD groups could potentially see level 18-20 quests? If so, it's good enough for me. I will be satisfied if we can kill the dragon, kill the Demon Queen, complete the level 14's in Gianthold (forget about Tor and the raid, who cares anyway), run with the devils in the Vale, and get into the Inspired Quarter and Shavarath, the Plane of Battle!

My earlier metaphor about mountains and ski lifts was a bit clumsy. A better comparison would be mountain hikers and astronauts. When you are climbing Kilamanjaro, who really cares about the gravitational effects of lunar exploration?

In The Core, if we had a player base where full groups could run regularly (small guild in a small niche community), we'd be level 16 before July. And remember, running Cabal for One, Feast or Famine, Trial by Fire, and those quests really won't be that difficult, even in the Core where we don't shrine. But every time we complete one of those quests we have a good chance at pulling some really nice loot that might make it easier for use to go beyond GH. One paralyzing weapon, one disruptor, can make a big difference. Besides, silver of pure good is enough to find when you have a holy repeating heavy crossbow and regular House D silver bolts. Same goes for the Silver Bow and regular House D silver or cold iron arrows. The loot we need might be found along the way... that's a large part of the fun for me. My stalwart defender has light fortification and he's about to turn level 12. When, oh when, will I find moderate fort or heavy fort? I'm not too worried about it.

Duncani_Daho
05-02-2010, 12:04 AM
BTW, Mo, when we ran sentinals the first time, we gave all the sigils to Whee. He was able to score an upgraded weapon from the first run. On my character's second run for elite, I pulled all three sigils and upgraded the armor bracers that I had chosen for end reward the first time through.

That lucky SOB! I drool***

My bard Mosashae has the Corroded Rapier and would dearly love to upgrade it, but I doubt it could happen without grinding content. Mosashae has the elite run to hope for, but then others in the party will also want their sigils so maybe a roll-off will be in order. I'm not holding my breath though.

Duncani_Daho
05-02-2010, 12:11 AM
Proof a permadeath group can run high level stuff without using the AH or brokers: Mortal Voyage Static Two. Movan is in that group with Dorlosh, Vhrothgeer, Kreapea, Os, and Nazjazz. We have completed Running With the Devils on hard, Rainbow in the Dark on hard, the Coalescence Chamber on hard, Let Sleeping Dust Lie on hard. Death means failure, though in the best case it would be getting a raise, everyone recalling out, recording it in your bio and -1 to half your base con (rounded up) to determine the number of times you can be rezzed.

So we completed all those quests without a single death. Movan dual-wields Sunblades for kicks, though I know my light maces of acid, electric, blah blah blah do more damage. The Sunblades were pulled from chests while he was running in Mortal Voyage. Tell Movan what's possible Chai.

parvo
05-02-2010, 01:39 AM
Again absolutism.

Its not "a couple quests". I give one example and now we are all literal and stuff.

The resource necessity increases on a pretty steep curve in the higher levels. You probably know where this curve starts. Its right around where permadeath gets hard to the point where you dont even have a full group of that level in the guild to roll with on a daily basis, because the toons are either dead, or there isnt a full group of them to roll with consistantly. Its no longer a 10% failure rate like you claim, but playing by your same rules, this failure rate begins to increase, exponentially, and ramps up even higher the next tier you go to.

And whats with the "on record" stuff. You carring a pocket stenographer or something? I know halflings have many talents and such but....

If you really require an absolutist statement to put me on record for, try "you need to be able to acquire specific resources liberally to play high end content in DDO." There, I said it. Have your pygmy drow record it and lock it away in your little mythical file cabinet, and pull it out when you get there. Will it be another 4 years?

Every time you start talking this stuff about people not playing by harder rulesets not being as skilled or not earning it like you do, I hope either myself or someone who has similar views on the game is there to pull your card. I think rolling a high end toon and running some end game content would put some perspective on the statements you make.

You see how hard a raid like VOD for example, can be with having to coordinate higher end groups to do certain things at certain times, and then knowing that there are people who soloed this, on elite. Yeah we challenge ourselves, probably harder than you do metagaming the same quests over and over again with low end gear. We like to keep it pushin round here. You just dont see it, or experience it, so you make your little comments. Buck up, and roll the content. Ive played most of the content iron man style. I have played in lesser restricting PD rulesets. I have done full on vet status zerg plow to level 20 raid toons. I can make these statements because I've seen all sides.

Do you have a public PD character on MyDDO Chai? I'd like to see what quests they are doing they need broker and auction house gear for. That way I'll know what to steer away from with my gimp equiped pygmy drow tribe.

parvo
05-02-2010, 01:49 AM
... But every time we complete one of those quests we have a good chance at pulling some really nice loot that might make it easier for use to go beyond GH. One paralyzing weapon, one disruptor, can make a big difference. Besides, silver of pure good is enough to find when you have a holy repeating heavy crossbow and regular House D silver bolts. Same goes for the Silver Bow and regular House D silver or cold iron arrows. The loot we need might be found along the way... that's a large part of the fun for me. My stalwart defender has light fortification and he's about to turn level 12. When, oh when, will I find moderate fort or heavy fort? I'm not too worried about it.

That's a good point and one folks may not understand. When you consistently run quests at or above your character level, you pull decent gear. Furthermore, it's more fun opening a chest. In mid level quests, it's crazy how excited folks get to pull something hot.

Chai
05-02-2010, 09:31 PM
Do you have a public PD character on MyDDO Chai? I'd like to see what quests they are doing they need broker and auction house gear for. That way I'll know what to steer away from with my gimp equiped pygmy drow tribe.

MyDDO has nothing to do with it. Until you are rolling epics and raids, and have seen all aspects of the game, you dont have the insight needed to make the statements you make about easy buttons, people not earning completions, and monte hall characters. You clearly dont understand how the balance in the game shifts in the higher levels with regards to resource acquisition and availability. You would have had a point in 2006-2008, but these statements leak like a siv nowdays unless applied to the limited amount of content you are choosing to play, indirectly, through your own direct playstyle choice.

Chai
05-02-2010, 09:48 PM
Why are you so eager to see permadeath groups in the Shroud and Hound? And do you agree that besides the raids PD groups could potentially see level 18-20 quests? If so, it's good enough for me. I will be satisfied if we can kill the dragon, kill the Demon Queen, complete the level 14's in Gianthold (forget about Tor and the raid, who cares anyway), run with the devils in the Vale, and get into the Inspired Quarter and Shavarath, the Plane of Battle!



Forget about Tor and the raid? We are playing Dungeons and Dragons, not Sewers and Kobolds. I dont think Tor is a stretch, and the Reaver is easier than Tor by far. It would be impossible without shrines though, unless you have huge stacks of mana pots. You guys could beat the reaver with no shrines. Tor is the thorn in your side here.

Theres 2 of those quests in shavarath you WILL die in without specific resources. They are very nice examples of what I was referring to in earlier posts.

I agree mega restricted PD can see the levels, but not the content you earn to play by flagging while running the 6 man quests, at those levels. Here again we discuss the easy button, because while you are being over restrictive to make it challenging, you are shying away from content you know to be impossible under your ruleset. I find this ironic that skillful players who make these type of claims about earning things and despising twinked toons and metaselection of quests for easy xp would do these things. I mean if we are going to be absolutists here, we cant have our cake and eat it too. I can repect your view on it because you are admitting that this content isnt catering to your ruleset, and you are quite correct, but it is still ironic all the same.

Chai
05-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Proof a permadeath group can run high level stuff without using the AH or brokers: Mortal Voyage Static Two. Movan is in that group with Dorlosh, Vhrothgeer, Kreapea, Os, and Nazjazz. We have completed Running With the Devils on hard, Rainbow in the Dark on hard, the Coalescence Chamber on hard, Let Sleeping Dust Lie on hard. Death means failure, though in the best case it would be getting a raise, everyone recalling out, recording it in your bio and -1 to half your base con (rounded up) to determine the number of times you can be rezzed.

So we completed all those quests without a single death. Movan dual-wields Sunblades for kicks, though I know my light maces of acid, electric, blah blah blah do more damage. The Sunblades were pulled from chests while he was running in Mortal Voyage. Tell Movan what's possible Chai.

You have just creeped into tier 1 of what I was posting about earlier regarding necessary resource acquisition. Sleeping dust is the easiest of the 5 Shroud Flagging Quests, all of which are a little bit harder than the content you have been playing just before these, at level, however this ramps up exponentially level by level. Where you are right now you can easily still use skill alone to complete quests without specific resources, because nothing in that area requires them. Let me know when you are ready for TOD. You dont need to make it a goal to run the raid, just the flag quests which are 6 man and part of the normal leveling content. You are only a few levels away, and if level 16 shroud flagging quests didnt seem too hard, level 18 and 19 Shavarath should be the same difficulty at the same level according to your reasoning right? You'll see the difference. Unless of course you metaselect the higher level quests you do based on your ruleset, in which case, youll breeze through IQ to level 20, which was made for casual players anyhow, then attempt to tell me I am wrong again, the whole time having avoided all the true level 16-20 challenges.

parvo
05-02-2010, 10:41 PM
MyDDO has nothing to do with it. Until you are rolling epics and raids, and have seen all aspects of the game, you dont have the insight needed to make the statements you make about easy buttons, people not earning completions, and monte hall characters. You clearly dont understand how the balance in the game shifts in the higher levels with regards to resource acquisition and availability. You would have had a point in 2006-2008, but these statements leak like a siv nowdays unless applied to the limited amount of content you are choosing to play, indirectly, through your own direct playstyle choice.


So, is that a no? You are leaving the impression that despite having all the resources you want at your disposal, you are not running what you say you can in PD. Buck up Chai. Show us your PD character who is doing all this questing so hard it needs auction gear.

parvo
05-02-2010, 11:12 PM
You have just creeped into tier 1 of what I was posting about earlier regarding necessary resource acquisition. Sleeping dust is the easiest of the 5 Shroud Flagging Quests, all of which are a little bit harder than the content you have been playing just before these, at level, however this ramps up exponentially level by level. Where you are right now you can easily still use skill alone to complete quests without specific resources, because nothing in that area requires them. Let me know when you are ready for TOD. You dont need to make it a goal to run the raid, just the flag quests which are 6 man and part of the normal leveling content. You are only a few levels away, and if level 16 shroud flagging quests didnt seem too hard, level 18 and 19 Shavarath should be the same difficulty at the same level according to your reasoning right? You'll see the difference. Unless of course you metaselect the higher level quests you do based on your ruleset, in which case, youll breeze through IQ to level 20, which was made for casual players anyhow, then attempt to tell me I am wrong again, the whole time having avoided all the true level 16-20 challenges.

If you run slayer to level from level 1-15, I agree with you.

Chai
05-03-2010, 12:55 AM
So, is that a no? You are leaving the impression that despite having all the resources you want at your disposal, you are not running what you say you can in PD. Buck up Chai. Show us your PD character who is doing all this questing so hard it needs auction gear.

I told you this is my goal, not that its happening right now. I cant do this in PD because individuals like you keep grinding it into other players heads that they arent really having a true PD experience unless they restrict themselves from certain in game mechanics. Ironic that by doing so, you have to metaselect quests just to make it to 20, if you even can. You will also harp on others about their easy buttons, but you wont get off your own easy button, stop metagaming the same quests in the first 2/3s of the levels of the game, and man up to the real hard content, which is end game. You claim you want a challenge? The gauntlet is down bud. Balls in your court not mine. You are the one who over the years has a history of talking about challenges, earning completions, restrictions, and monte hall toons, tut tutting people who have won hard earned accomplishments for a couple years now because they werent earned on your terms, and patting yourself and others who think like you do on the back harder than you do others for accomplishing the same things. Time to demonstrate what you know of these things, at all levels. You wont do it though, I can already see it. Again, I clearly understand I am convincing no one other than those who already agree with me. But I still feel compelled to pull your card, to try to set things into motion, for individuals like yourself to rise to the next level of play. By your own motto - stay hard? Or continue metagaming and repetition grinding with restrictions?

PD Tor will be NP. So will reaver. Sure it may take a few tries, but it will happen. Shroud is another thing entirely, but it can be done, with the right attitude and level of discipline. I have seen less geared less knowledgeable less skilled people regarding builds and metagaming lead through the Shroud without deaths. PD players already have what it takes, more than alot of the pileons I see in non PD, who are first time players, lack build knowledge and quest knowledge, but still succeed.

Heck, VON is harder than Reaver / TOR, and it has been done in PD.

Duncani_Daho
05-03-2010, 05:33 AM
I told you this is my goal, not that its happening right now. I cant do this in PD because individuals like you keep grinding it into other players heads that they arent really having a true PD experience unless they restrict themselves from certain in game mechanics. Ironic that by doing so, you have to metaselect quests just to make it to 20, if you even can. You will also harp on others about their easy buttons, but you wont get off your own easy button, stop metagaming the same quests in the first 2/3s of the levels of the game, and man up to the real hard content, which is end game. You claim you want a challenge? The gauntlet is down bud. Balls in your court not mine. You are the one who over the years has a history of talking about challenges, earning completions, restrictions, and monte hall toons, tut tutting people who have won hard earned accomplishments for a couple years now because they werent earned on your terms, and patting yourself and others who think like you do on the back harder than you do others for accomplishing the same things. Time to demonstrate what you know of these things, at all levels. You wont do it though, I can already see it. Again, I clearly understand I am convincing no one other than those who already agree with me. But I still feel compelled to pull your card, to try to set things into motion, for individuals like yourself to rise to the next level of play. By your own motto - stay hard? Or continue metagaming and repetition grinding with restrictions?

PD Tor will be NP. So will reaver. Sure it may take a few tries, but it will happen. Shroud is another thing entirely, but it can be done, with the right attitude and level of discipline. I have seen less geared less knowledgeable less skilled people regarding builds and metagaming lead through the Shroud without deaths. PD players already have what it takes, more than alot of the pileons I see in non PD, who are first time players, lack build knowledge and quest knowledge, but still succeed.

Heck, VON is harder than Reaver / TOR, and it has been done in PD.


Obviously Parvo can defend himself. But I've done pretty much all the content in the game and I've been in pug groups with some very smooth players. But if anyone metaselects or metagamers, it's pug players who want the easiest run possible. They bring every weapon they need, or buy one from the AH, before going into the quest.

But you say real hard content is only end game? Nonsense. If I remember right, Parvo was in a 3-man group in MV which ran and completed Faithful Departed a while back. I consider that to be a truly decent accomplishment. You don't have to grind your way up to level 18-20 to find a challenge Chai! Take a full party of level 5-6's into Taming the Flames on hard. Elite would be asking too much, right? On hard, you'd only be slightly under level for that quest. I think it will be plenty challenging for you.

Here's the bottom line: if you make allowances (like using AH) for the strict rules of certain PD guilds, you will make it SO INCREDIBLY EASY to reach something like Bastion of Power that the journey to it will hardly be worthwhile. You might as well just pug if you are in a hurry to see Sins of Attrition, Tower of Despair, and Vision of Destruction. I've been in those quests, and even though the groups were good, I don't see much in the way of accomplishment there compared to what goes on in PD guilds. Solo VOD elite? I admit, it's a pretty decent accomplishment. When he failed the first time did he delete his character? What did he risk by trying?

Finally, it's not an either/or: high level content or permadeath. I experience high level content with my non-pd toon and climb Mount Glory when I want to get serious.

Duncani_Daho
05-03-2010, 06:25 AM
While I can agree with most of what you are saying, I think 4 years of permadeath gaming and still making the old "we will get there" statement seems futile. Shroud is a mid level raid now. The flag quests are level 16. I think it can be done. the Reaver can be soloed, no shrines, since he super charges your mana anyhow. The other 11 players are just piking for the most part nowdays. TOR is more of a challenge, but with no shrines it likely wont be done. I like PD, and I dont think its too much of a stretch to enjoy higher end content. It just means having a few more resources.

No, the Shroud is not a mid level raid now. It's relatively close to the level cap. You probably meant that it's an easy raid now, since level 20's go in with greensteel galore on normal. The level of the raid doesn't change because the characters get stronger with gear upgrades. I ran in TOD the other day with Axer and company and it was easy too. Is that one of the difficult raids?

And your "four years of permadeath gaming" is misleading. Two years ago we were using the AH and brokers in MV and approaching the level cap for the time. The mechanics of the guild prevented us from doing nothing. Some of us left to play other games and some of us left to play in a more hardcore guild. You're painted permadeath play as a failed venture and I'd respond by saying it's an on-going success.

Granted, I get pretty daunted at times when I'm running in my permadeath static group and we are battling through Running With The Devils and getting refueled by shrines. It makes me think, "How are we EVER going to do this quest in The Core?" But again, that's like worrying about having enough rocket fuel to reach the moon while you are sailing the pacific in search of India. Sea monsters, hmmm, loot! Yes, loot.

UnderwearModel
05-03-2010, 06:38 AM
I very rarely BUY anything from the AH as the prices are out of balance. I do not think the AH is much of a factor for a PDer.

I find 99% of my gear while playing.

Sometimes, when selling at vendors I see a weapon I like and purchase it. Or I find mithril armor at the vendor and I purchase it.

In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.

parvo
05-03-2010, 06:42 AM
I told you this is my goal, not that its happening right now. I cant do this in PD because individuals like you keep grinding it into other players heads that they arent really having a true PD experience unless they restrict themselves from certain in game mechanics. Ironic that by doing so, you have to metaselect quests just to make it to 20, if you even can. You will also harp on others about their easy buttons, but you wont get off your own easy button, stop metagaming the same quests in the first 2/3s of the levels of the game, and man up to the real hard content, which is end game. You claim you want a challenge? The gauntlet is down bud. Balls in your court not mine. You are the one who over the years has a history of talking about challenges, earning completions, restrictions, and monte hall toons, tut tutting people who have won hard earned accomplishments for a couple years now because they werent earned on your terms, and patting yourself and others who think like you do on the back harder than you do others for accomplishing the same things. Time to demonstrate what you know of these things, at all levels. You wont do it though, I can already see it. Again, I clearly understand I am convincing no one other than those who already agree with me. But I still feel compelled to pull your card, to try to set things into motion, for individuals like yourself to rise to the next level of play. By your own motto - stay hard? Or continue metagaming and repetition grinding with restrictions?

PD Tor will be NP. So will reaver. Sure it may take a few tries, but it will happen. Shroud is another thing entirely, but it can be done, with the right attitude and level of discipline. I have seen less geared less knowledgeable less skilled people regarding builds and metagaming lead through the Shroud without deaths. PD players already have what it takes, more than alot of the pileons I see in non PD, who are first time players, lack build knowledge and quest knowledge, but still succeed.

Heck, VON is harder than Reaver / TOR, and it has been done in PD.

Your dressing me down about cherry-picking quests Chai? Really...

Show us your PD charactrers. Mine are there for you to see.

parvo
05-03-2010, 06:47 AM
...And your "four years of permadeath gaming" is misleading. Two years ago we were using the AH and brokers in MV and approaching the level cap for the time. ..

We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.

parvo
05-03-2010, 06:51 AM
I very rarely BUY anything from the AH as the prices are out of balance. I do not think the AH is much of a factor for a PDer.

I find 99% of my gear while playing.

Sometimes, when selling at vendors I see a weapon I like and purchase it. Or I find mithril armor at the vendor and I purchase it.

In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.

This is a good point. Broker gear probably puts a character in the same range as one using auction.

Duncani_Daho
05-03-2010, 08:00 AM
We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.

You're right, my typo. But it's a pointless distinction because the stuff we WERE buying from the brokers in MV was probably cheaper and just as powerful as the stuff normally available on the AH.

I remember Tipto once bought a Reaver's Ring from the brokers. He probably paid 20k gold for it. For kicks, see how much they are on the buyout option in the AH. You'll see my point.

The character I leveled up to 15 in MV, Mochop, could hardly have benefitted more using the AH. He found everything he could have possibly desired at the brokers. It took a fair bit of searching, but if he need a +6 wisdom helm, he found it. If he needed good armored bracers, he bought the +7 ARMORER BRACERS from the brokers when they were in the Rusty Nail.

The stuff at the brokers was cheaper than it normally is on the AH, just a bit harder to find...

Duncani_Daho
05-03-2010, 08:01 AM
We never used auction house in Mortal Voyage.

You're right, my typo. But it's a pointless distinction because the stuff we WERE buying from the brokers in MV was probably cheaper and just as powerful as the stuff normally available on the AH.

I remember Tipto once bought a Reaver's Ring from the brokers. He probably paid 20k gold for it. For kicks, see how much they are on the buyout option in the AH. You'll see my point.

The character I leveled up to 15 in MV, Mochop, could hardly have benefitted more using the AH. He found everything he could have possibly desired at the brokers. It took a fair bit of searching, but if he needed a +6 wisdom helm, he found it. If he needed good armored bracers, he bought the +7 ARMORED BRACERS from the brokers when they were in the Rusty Nail.

The stuff at the brokers was cheaper than it normally is on the AH, just a bit harder to find...

Chai
05-03-2010, 08:04 AM
Obviously Parvo can defend himself. But I've done pretty much all the content in the game and I've been in pug groups with some very smooth players. But if anyone metaselects or metagamers, it's pug players who want the easiest run possible. They bring every weapon they need, or buy one from the AH, before going into the quest.

But you say real hard content is only end game? Nonsense. If I remember right, Parvo was in a 3-man group in MV which ran and completed Faithful Departed a while back. I consider that to be a truly decent accomplishment. You don't have to grind your way up to level 18-20 to find a challenge Chai! Take a full party of level 5-6's into Taming the Flames on hard. Elite would be asking too much, right? On hard, you'd only be slightly under level for that quest. I think it will be plenty challenging for you.

Here's the bottom line: if you make allowances (like using AH) for the strict rules of certain PD guilds, you will make it SO INCREDIBLY EASY to reach something like Bastion of Power that the journey to it will hardly be worthwhile. You might as well just pug if you are in a hurry to see Sins of Attrition, Tower of Despair, and Vision of Destruction. I've been in those quests, and even though the groups were good, I don't see much in the way of accomplishment there compared to what goes on in PD guilds. Solo VOD elite? I admit, it's a pretty decent accomplishment. When he failed the first time did he delete his character? What did he risk by trying?

Finally, it's not an either/or: high level content or permadeath. I experience high level content with my non-pd toon and climb Mount Glory when I want to get serious.


Again far too absolutist. Your blanket statements dont apply to the higher level content . You may have had a point in 2007 when level 12 was the cap, but nowdays, the fact that you and other restricted players dont even set foot in these places proves exactly what I stated to be true.

I dont expect you to see it my way, but ill state my point anyhow. Since you are metaselecting quests to fit your chosen playstyle, you are falling into your own little self contradicting irony trap you call others out for. You avoid the toughest content in the game, and dodge certain content even when its at mid level. Your playstyle is hard core, but in order to facilitate it, you have to avoid sizable milestones in the mid level game, and not even attempt the high end game.

And yes, each time I see these statements made on the forums regarding the AH making the game too easy, whether its Parvo or someone else, I feel compelled to jump in and point out how rediculous they are, along with the irony that is served up as a hard playstyle.

Chai
05-03-2010, 08:20 AM
Your dressing me down about cherry-picking quests Chai? Really...

Show us your PD charactrers. Mine are there for you to see.

Dont play the anon game with me. The forums are a place where a few people can slap eachother on the back enough times to earn the right to troll neg rep for weeks at a time on someone else who doesnt have enough slaps on the back to do the same in return. It sucks when people cant handle being disagreed with to the point where they have to react by mashing the drama button like they are trying to build up top speed in a Track and Field game. I usually find that if someone reacts this way, the points I made in response to their blathering probably hit a little too close to home, they cant formulate an actual valid counterpoint, so they have to call me out for being anon. By doing this, you are attempting to side step the entire issue and gloss over every single legitimate point that is made.

If you actually read the posts I made before replying you would actually see that I clearly stated running this content is (was) a goal of mine, that it is possible, but no one is doing it yet. You are calling me out for something I clearly stated could be done, but is being roadblocked not by ability, but by absolutist blanket statements of people who classify accomplishments based on level of gear, yet avoid certain content and metaselect quests themselves according to playstyle choice.

Chai
05-03-2010, 08:28 AM
In my mind, I imagine a PDer to be a calculating and strategic player.

Which is exactly why I want to run the higher content with them.

I want to see how far the strategic rabbit hole goes. I cant challenge them or bait them into doing it though, not even with the reward of younger women, faster cars, mo money, and pie, lots and lots of pie!

spifflove
05-03-2010, 09:31 AM
Once you get into the higher level content, you cannot complete without having specific resporces.


That is why you failed.

We have already accomplished what I used to think was impossible.

spifflove
05-03-2010, 09:33 AM
Completing the analogy: I have met a few people who climb mountains as a hobby, and some make it more difficult on themselves than others as a challenge, but NONE of them are EVER satisfied with getting 2/3 of the way to the top, over and over again.

No, they get 2/3 of the way as many times as is necessary until they reach the top. Then they look for the next mountain. Even a casual climber knows this.

In pnp once you got to 20 you retired, became an NPC, demigod, etc.

Chai
05-03-2010, 10:10 AM
No, they get 2/3 of the way as many times as is necessary until they reach the top. Then they look for the next mountain. Even a casual climber knows this.

In pnp once you got to 20 you retired, became an NPC, demigod, etc.

Or you use the epic ruleset and go to 40. Again the analogy applies, as the game is more broken as you progress into epic levels.

Chai
05-03-2010, 10:13 AM
That is why you failed.

We have already accomplished what I used to think was impossible.

So you rolled into a new invasion and completed on the hardest setting possible with restricted resources?

I did all the content iron man back in 2007 including the shroud. The stuff that is out now however makes the shroud look like a kitty pool. PD could reach the tops of these mountains using restricted rulesets back in the day. This no longer applies however, as the new content that is released is done so with the specific understanding of all the items and resources that are in the game, and the fact that players will use these resources influences the difficulty that this content is put out at.

The only thing I failed at is convincing people that a shifting game dynamic requires you to rethink rulesets in order to do higher level content. I think you guys do understand this however, as you accept that you will not be doing the upper tier stuff, and work around quests and chains you know will not accomodate your ruleset. I am fine with this, as long as you are not talking about easy buttons, monte hall toons, and AH = lack of challenge when someone else does accomplish something you choose to avoid through metaselection of quests.

spifflove
05-03-2010, 10:22 AM
So you rolled into a new invasion and completed on the hardest setting possible with restricted resources?

I havent failed. I did all the content iron man back in 2007 including the shroud. The stuff that is out now however makes the shroud look like a kitty pool. PD could reach the tops of these mountains using restricted rulesets back in the day. This no longer applies however.

No but I know it could be done. I have real life issues now that will prevent me from being there when it happens.

If I had no real life issues, only had a 9-5 job with no family, etc, I would expect it would take me about a year accomplish everything I wanted to in the game, about the same time it took me to beat Panzer General with the rule that I couldnt lose a single unit [elite level, low prestige].

You make some interesting points but you also put in alot of false conclusions. I recently made a toon that I leveled to 18 playing about 1 hour a day on bonus xp days only and have done rainbow about 6 times now including elite using dual Retributions, a longsword of paralyzing, a cursepewing longsword, and dual metalline longswords. Oh and I played an elf. I didn't need mineral II scimitars. Maybe for Epic but like others said thats the moon.

Bottom line: The reason why the limited resources PD doesnt want to use the Ah is because it won't mean anything to us to win that way.

Drall.
05-03-2010, 01:55 PM
I don't know, it seems a bit of a false debate.

Let's say that we assume that there are some high-level content that strict PD rules will prohibit forever, in that case PD people have 2 options:

A. Open up PD rules to allow to get to all of the content (at the risk of making previous content too easy as OP mentioned).

or

B. Roll a non-PD toon and go play the high-end content with it.


Now, where exactly the PD cap will end-up being is hard to say but it sounds to me that taking option A and opening up the rules to reach a higher destination puts a risk to the whole road. I don't think it's worth taking at this stage since you can do B. In addition, the glass ceiling for PD with strict rules hasn't been reached yet, so it seems a bit of an unecessary debate at ths point.

For transparency sake, I play mostly PD and a non-PD character (option B FTW).


Drall

Chai
05-03-2010, 02:12 PM
No but I know it could be done. I have real life issues now that will prevent me from being there when it happens.

If I had no real life issues, only had a 9-5 job with no family, etc, I would expect it would take me about a year accomplish everything I wanted to in the game, about the same time it took me to beat Panzer General with the rule that I couldnt lose a single unit [elite level, low prestige].

You make some interesting points but you also put in alot of false conclusions. I recently made a toon that I leveled to 18 playing about 1 hour a day on bonus xp days only and have done rainbow about 6 times now including elite using dual Retributions, a longsword of paralyzing, a cursepewing longsword, and dual metalline longswords. Oh and I played an elf. I didn't need mineral II scimitars. Maybe for Epic but like others said thats the moon.

Bottom line: The reason why the limited resources PD doesnt want to use the Ah is because it won't mean anything to us to win that way.

Rainbow was higher end content in 2007. It is now 2010 and there have been ALOT of releases in content that I dont see touched often by PD players. This again, is due to the logrithmic difficulty increase. Even going up one tier from the vale to reavers refuge, you see what I mean. Compare the boss fights of "Enter the Kobold" and Prey on the Hunter" with those of "Rainbow in the Dark" and other vale content and you see the exponential increase in PD difficulty to complete. Possible failure of running these on hard at level with restricted resources is no longer 10% like Parvo suggests for most of the content. Its alot higher. Shavarath and Amrath take this up another two exponential notches. The one exception to the rule here is Inspired Quarter, which seems to have been created for more casual players. A level 19 quest out there doesnt match up difficulty wise to a level 19 amrath quest.

Id love to see PD players succeed out in the Amrath / Shavarath zones. I believe it will take more than skill / forcec cooperation out there. The boss fights not only require DR bypassing weapons, but specific effect removal en masse. No amount of skill can resolve hitting a mob for 0. You either have the needed items or you dont....

...Or you metaselect these quests out of the playable content.

~Zornochio
05-03-2010, 03:04 PM
The only thing I failed at is convincing people that a shifting game dynamic requires you to rethink rulesets in order to do higher level content. I think you guys do understand this however, as you accept that you will not be doing the upper tier stuff, and work around quests and chains you know will not accomodate your ruleset. I am fine with this, as long as you are not talking about easy buttons, monte hall toons, and AH = lack of challenge when someone else does accomplish something you choose to avoid through metaselection of quests.

But we are not passing up quests in MV and The Core because they are too hard, that is the reason we are sitting around level 12-13. We run whatever is available to us and never overlevel (The Core will does 1 level over to accomidate for lack of shrines). We have characters in the level range for VoN, just not enough to actually do the raid yet but we have had many attempts to flag for it. We lost ~10 9-11 (some with xp for 12) characters in several Von3 Hard runs this year. The only things we avoid are trap heavy quests if we have no rogue.



A. Open up PD rules to allow to get to all of the content (at the risk of making previous content too easy as OP mentioned).


The opened up rulesets are why MV, Valhalla, and the Core were formed in the first place though :), many players didn't like the direction the game/pd rules were going and made it tougher on themselves.


Again, none of the rulesets are better than the others, they just have different goals. The guilds that don't allow the brokers/AH do it because the benifits do not outweigh the negatives for the way they want to play. The players like Chai that want to run epics and end-game raids can do just that in Sublime, Extreme Explorers, or any of the other PD guilds that use the AH.

P.S. it's always entertaining to watch somebody try and change Parvo's mind :)

Chai
05-03-2010, 04:18 PM
But we are not passing up quests in MV and The Core because they are too hard, that is the reason we are sitting around level 12-13. We run whatever is available to us and never overlevel (The Core will does 1 level over to accomidate for lack of shrines). We have characters in the level range for VoN, just not enough to actually do the raid yet but we have had many attempts to flag for it. We lost ~10 9-11 (some with xp for 12) characters in several Von3 Hard runs this year. The only things we avoid are trap heavy quests if we have no rogue.



So the guilds who play with no shrine dont metaselect past say Tor, mired in kobolds, prey on the hunter, and the like, due to knowing the quest would be next to impossible sans shrines? (well, i think you COULD do mired, but I wont spoil it for people who like the virgin dragon fight experience) I think Duncan already established that there are some exceptions that "dont get worried about". While I will accept this is a sacrifice you make due to your ruleset, and heck I even endorse it due to creating an extreme challenge, I will not accept this from people who crow on and on to everyone else about purchasing from AH = no challenge, monte hall toons not earning their accomplishments, and the like.

I am sure you can see where the irony is here. You have people harping about running quests over level or at level using the AH which is not challenging, then they themselves are metaselecting their way through available quests because they know certain quests WILL be the end of their toons if they run them according to their rulesets, even with a heavy dose of metagaming, skill, and forced cooperation.

Then someone like myself who doesnt mind taking the hard assignment to point this out comes along and explains the truth, which is that these people are CHOOSING to limit themselves and in doing so, cant really make comments about other peoples challenges, because more gear availability also = higher possible challenges. People in Sublime for instance have run level 18 and 19 quests on level 15 and 16 toons. This is not uncommon, as the ruleset allows for more availability of resources. My highest toon in PD to date other than an iron man static group which is technically non PD, is 16. He has been in level 20 quests. I dont need to have rules branded into my forhead and etched in stone in order to challenge myself, nor to know which content will be challenging given the level of resources available and average party level. Some people believe otherwise however, and feel the need to make their voices heard onthe issue. Cant blame me for doing the same.

Other PDers have basically /ragequit guilds in full temper tantrum mode over ruleset arguements in the past so I know people take this pretty seriously, which is why I have to point out the irony when I see it.

P.S. I dont /ragequit. I /ragejoin. What? You dont think I can do this? Pfft, thats the last straw! Sign me up bro! :p The crazies want to feed me to a red dragon at level 10 or less. I'll run to the AH to buy some ketchup for that quest....

parvo
05-03-2010, 06:35 PM
You're right, my typo. But it's a pointless distinction because the stuff we WERE buying from the brokers in MV was probably cheaper and just as powerful as the stuff normally available on the AH.

I remember Tipto once bought a Reaver's Ring from the brokers. He probably paid 20k gold for it. For kicks, see how much they are on the buyout option in the AH. You'll see my point.

The character I leveled up to 15 in MV, Mochop, could hardly have benefitted more using the AH. He found everything he could have possibly desired at the brokers. It took a fair bit of searching, but if he need a +6 wisdom helm, he found it. If he needed good armored bracers, he bought the +7 ARMORER BRACERS from the brokers when they were in the Rusty Nail.

The stuff at the brokers was cheaper than it normally is on the AH, just a bit harder to find...

Agree completely. When I set up MV, I envisioned a place where the economy could balance gear. I was wrong. Even though we didn't use auction, by character level eight or so, you could get pretty much whatever you wanted at the auction. By level 10 or 12, money comes in faster than you can spend it.

parvo
05-03-2010, 07:22 PM
...If you actually read the posts I made before replying you would actually see that I clearly stated running this content is (was) a goal of mine, that it is possible, but no one is doing it yet. You are calling me out for something I clearly stated could be done, but is being roadblocked not by ability, but by absolutist blanket statements of people who classify accomplishments based on level of gear, yet avoid certain content and metaselect quests themselves according to playstyle choice.

You wrote this did you not?

<<<Chai>>>There are level 18 and 19 quests where the boss mob hits you with a cursed wound every 2 seconds, and I am not being sarcastic here, its every 2 seconds. You also need weapons with "good" and "silver" on them just to bypass DR on the mob, or you hit for so much less damage, that if your party doesnt have these weapons, you likely will not beat the encounter. Back to Korthos island for all members of the party.

The permadeathers in the game who are allowed to use the AH are doing these quests and surviving, while the ones who are not allowed to use the AH are capping in the low teens, dying in old world raids on normal difficulty, and not doing upwards of half of the game content, because they cant get their foot in the door.<<<End Chai>>>

Show your characters. Inquisitive pygmy drow everywhere want to know what quests your PD characters are doing.

When you level up a character off slayer, casual and normal difficulty, and doing quests two or three levels below your character, you probably do need the auction or broker because the loot sucks.

Here's links to my current highest character:
Jepta a mutt cleric/rogue who's bluelining at 11 with enough for level 12
http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/jepta/
In addition to the gear shown she has:

+4 heavy shield
Mantle of the Worldshaper (recently aquired)

-- +4 Dexterity Gloves, hierloom.
-- +5 Spot Ring and Goggles, Depths of Doom elite.
-- Featherfalling Boots, STK hard
-- +1 Flaming Crossbow of Pure Good, Haunted Library hard
-- +1 Int Goggles with +10 Spot, Underwater Action Necklace, Caverns of Korromar hard
-- +5 Search Goggles, +2 Shock Rapier of Vertigo, +5 Rapier, Bodyfeader Light Mace of Vertigo, Threnal West hard.
-- Thundering Light Hammer of Pure Good, The Pit hard
-- Ghost Touch Dagger of Pure Good, Proof Against Poison Belt of Light Fortification, Delera's ?
-- +4 Ogre Power Bracers elf only, +1 Fearsome Mithril Breastplate, Tear of Dhakaan elite
-- +4 Keen Rapier, Cavern's of Korromar elite
-- +3 Con Belt, Chamber of Rahmat hard
-- +4 Mithril Chain Shirt, Restless Isles

Her gear is solid and well balanced for her level because in Mortal Voyage we don't farm slayer, quest on casual and normal difficulty, or run quests two or three levels below our character. Because we quest at level, we pull gear that keeps us in the game. At the same time, because we quest at level, we face consistent challenge with genuine risk of character loss.

parvo
05-03-2010, 07:24 PM
Which is exactly why I want to run the higher content with them.

I want to see how far the strategic rabbit hole goes. I cant challenge them or bait them into doing it though, not even with the reward of younger women, faster cars, mo money, and pie, lots and lots of pie!

There are players out there willing to play PD as if it's "normal" play. However most players don't join PD so they can zerg easy quests to 20.


You never said there was pie.

parvo
05-03-2010, 07:42 PM
So the guilds who play with no shrine dont metaselect past say Tor, mired in kobolds, prey on the hunter, and the like, due to knowing the quest would be next to impossible sans shrines? (well, i think you COULD do mired, but I wont spoil it for people who like the virgin dragon fight experience) I think Duncan already established that there are some exceptions that "dont get worried about". While I will accept this is a sacrifice you make due to your ruleset, and heck I even endorse it due to creating an extreme challenge, I will not accept this from people who crow on and on to everyone else about purchasing from AH = no challenge, monte hall toons not earning their accomplishments, and the like.

I am sure you can see where the irony is here. You have people harping about running quests over level or at level using the AH which is not challenging, then they themselves are metaselecting their way through available quests because they know certain quests WILL be the end of their toons if they run them according to their rulesets, even with a heavy dose of metagaming, skill, and forced cooperation.

Then someone like myself who doesnt mind taking the hard assignment to point this out comes along and explains the truth, which is that these people are CHOOSING to limit themselves and in doing so, cant really make comments about other peoples challenges, because more gear availability also = higher possible challenges. People in Sublime for instance have run level 18 and 19 quests on level 15 and 16 toons. This is not uncommon, as the ruleset allows for more availability of resources. My highest toon in PD to date other than an iron man static group which is technically non PD, is 16. He has been in level 20 quests. I dont need to have rules branded into my forhead and etched in stone in order to challenge myself, nor to know which content will be challenging given the level of resources available and average party level. Some people believe otherwise however, and feel the need to make their voices heard onthe issue. Cant blame me for doing the same.

Other PDers have basically /ragequit guilds in full temper tantrum mode over ruleset arguements in the past so I know people take this pretty seriously, which is why I have to point out the irony when I see it.

P.S. I dont /ragequit. I /ragejoin. What? You dont think I can do this? Pfft, thats the last straw! Sign me up bro! :p The crazies want to feed me to a red dragon at level 10 or less. I'll run to the AH to buy some ketchup for that quest....

I think you're missing a point here. I can't speak for all guilds, but mine isn't up to "Tor, mired in kobolds, prey on the hunter, and the like..." exactly because we don't constantly choose the easy path. Are your PD characters that high because of the auction or becasue of slayer XP, normal scaling and consistently running quests below level? Let's shed some light. Show us your PD characters.

parvo
05-03-2010, 07:44 PM
...P.S. it's always entertaining to watch somebody try and change Parvo's mind :)

Chai didn't mention pie until a few posts ago. It's his fault.

Chai
05-04-2010, 12:43 AM
I think you're missing a point here. I can't speak for all guilds, but mine isn't up to "Tor, mired in kobolds, prey on the hunter, and the like..." exactly because we don't constantly choose the easy path. Are your PD characters that high because of the auction or becasue of slayer XP, normal scaling and consistently running quests below level? Let's shed some light. Show us your PD characters.

Here we go with the easy path again. Higher level gear availability = harder quests. Cant live with that though can you? You have to floss this easy button sheist like you know what awaits you in the levels we play in. There is no easy path in the groups I roll in. My cleric is prob only slightly better geared than your toon you just posted, however he has rolled into level 20 quests, and gotten mindsunder loot, so far, so good. In there, like swim wear...

Ok, I'll play your little game, ONCE.

Tusn 2, level 16 PD cleric, gear list:

Chain shirt of heavy fort - pulled, GH POP hard
Superior potency 6 scepter - Madstone end reward - hard
Iron Manacles - Deleras
Disease immunity ring - low level pull
Featherfalling boots - STK through elite
6 str gloves - vale slayers
striding 20 ring - end reward - crucible hard
Con 4 belt - end reward, cabal
Cha 6 cloak - temple of VOL - hard
Voice - deleras
6 wis necklace - fleshmaker lab - hard
Wizadry 6 helm - one of the IQ quest end rewards, we did them all on the same day. Hard = level 19

This gear is low end for a cleric his level, which is 16. Most of this stuff is level 13 or below gear. Some of it is level 6. He has run level 19 and 20 quests, at or before level 16. All of the desert content, most of the GH content, all of the IQ content, most of the vale content, on hard at least. This toon also went into the subterrane slayer zone, with CR22 living spells, beholders, undead giant skellys, teleporting bearded devils and orthons, and so on. You dont zerg through these zones in PD man. There is no easy button when mobs have thousands of HP, deathblock, toss 500 point disintegrates around at will, and spam cometfalls, not to mention the room being quiet one moment, and 6 or 7 devils teleporting in the next moment while youre trying to rest. All the runes on the walls and floor spam spells and dispell your buffs too. How can you even make that kind of easy zerg claim? Oh yeah, you cant, because you havent been there.

I remember when it was suggested we do the subterrane, and everyone in the group just stopped talking and put their game faces on after we stepped into the instance. Then someone on a low level toon said something in guild about needing a partner for some korthos quests, and I said in guild chat: "hang on a few minutes, we might all come join you". Knowing what we were up against, it wasnt an inaccurate statement in the least. We all lived though. Now some Sublime monks have Icy's to show for it. How do you get that monte hall loot Parvo? YOU_EARN_IT - by going to hell and back to get it, literally. :p

P.S. never EVER have I run a quest on casual in PD - and only a few times in NON PD to help some fr00bs flag for SOS. I have more elites done than normals, and more hards than anything else, and the normal quests were all done at least 2 levels higher than the character level. Crucible normal at character level 11 for instance. I was the highest level toon there. Everyone else was 10 or tied at 11. We also 5 manned it. Up hill both ways, against the wind, on gravel with no shoes, etc. etc. yadda yadda...Git off mah lawn!

Dont try to play this stuff off on me where I dont have a ruleset etched in stone for what I can and cant do, therefore I must be pushing the easy button to get to where I am at. This is a sad attempt at best to justify your entire stance on this issue. Your ruleset might be etched in proverbial stone in your guild bylaws, but this is self policed anyhow. You and only you can ensure you are challenging yourself in PD on a quest by quest basis. The fact that you wrote up a nice little charter to justify this, is not relevant in the least. The groups I have seen and gamed with have talented players who like to keep it pushing. There is no need to sign the dotted line in blood to make that happen. Who micro and macro manages this? Me. Not some document sitting up on some website.

I am a lover of irony however, so do continue to metagame your way through levels 1-12 repeatedly, which is by and far the biggest easy button in the game, and try to tut tut me for having a level 16 toon who rolled exponentially harder content above his level than you have seen in PD to date.

parvo
05-04-2010, 06:32 AM
Chai, no one is denying you have great skill. I've met and played with a lot of folks in Sublime that are outstanding. You're the only person bringing that up in this thread (skill thing). Your probably more skilled than I am, and certainly more knowledgeable about the higher level quests and gear. I'm glad your pushing the limits of what you and your groups can do. I cheer your victories. However, since you keep bringing up the comparisons, why don't you flag the character for public view?
http://my.ddo.com/chai/

Chai
05-04-2010, 07:27 AM
Chai, no one is denying you have great skill. I've met and played with a lot of folks in Sublime that are outstanding. You're the only person bringing that up in this thread (skill thing). Your probably more skilled than I am, and certainly more knowledgeable about the higher level quests and gear. I'm glad your pushing the limits of what you and your groups can do. I cheer your victories. However, since you keep bringing up the comparisons, why don't you flag the character for public view?
http://my.ddo.com/chai/

I have already stated why. Twice. Just like an etched in stone ruleset, this doesnt matter. You keep trying to floss this though, so you get one toon, my highest level PD toon in current PD. http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/tusn/

I think its safe to say hes not twinked out the wazoo, or too heavily geared for the content he has pushed into. Most of the level 20s in PD I have seen are similarly geared. No one really has any amazing stuff no one else can get their hands on, unless of course, they earned it by not getting stepped on by the CR22 - 24 mobs in the zones they had to survive to get to the chest and loot it.

I bring up the comparison only because you bring up the easy button, which you continue to infer that if youre not bolted down by a blanket ruleset, you must be playing the easy route to get to levels others havent seen. Metagaming is the easy button, and not gear - and this is unavoidable, however, this is also equally available to everyone, and not just those who are not covered by an internet document potential guildies must read before joining.

parvo
05-04-2010, 05:36 PM
If you mark your character as public, I can see what quests you completed. Then you can show me how the auction house, brokers and magic vendors = harder quests. This is your chance to change my mind.

Chai
05-04-2010, 06:02 PM
If you mark your character as public, I can see what quests you completed. Then you can show me how the auction house, brokers and magic vendors = harder quests. This is your chance to change my mind.

I wont bow to this. I dont require your approval or policing to make my or anyone elses accomplishments valid, or earned. Besides, even if there was a chance you would change your mind, its not going to happen because you took a gander at my toon and experienced some stunning revelation. It would happen because you clearly understand the logic at work here, that you need resources to complete higher level content, as it get exponentially harder, and not in a linear fashion.

Another minor technicality - you still wont see what level I ran those quests at. I see where you are trying to go with this. When I show you a list of hards and elites, with some normals, you'll just say "yeah, sucks that you had to run those level 10 quests on elite when you were level 14" or something else completely obtuse, because it cant be proven either way. You are trying to make me justify my accomplishments, when I dont feel the need to. There's no ego to poke at here bud.

Again, and I dont know how much I need to rail on this for it to sink in, but finding the challenge is self policed only. No guild ruleset, no group of players, and no amount of guild leadership changes this.

What can be proven, by sheer lack of your presence in these same levels, is that what I stated earlier is correct. By voluntarily not using the features in the game you are self enforcing a quest level limitation, indirectly. All you have to do is look at your guild list, and the level curve will match the difficulty of quest completion potential sans resources.

parvo
05-04-2010, 06:50 PM
Stay Hard Chai.

Chai
05-05-2010, 03:28 PM
***Maximized empowered extended wall of text alert***

I think this method might be an easier way of explaining what I am trying to explain.

Experiment: The Pit, elite. Level 9 toons.

The catch: No raises available (in his best Ivan Drako voice) "If he dies, he dies."

Scenario 1.

Six guys and gals fresh off the WOW boat, thinking all hack and slash, min maxing and so on. Give them all kinds of good gear for their level. +4 stat items for all applicable stats, +5 mithril armor, shields, and +4 weapons with effects on them + muckbanes, race restricted heavy fort items, stacks of heal potions, stacks of mana potions, stat potions, jump potions and house P buffs or other extended 20 point resists.

Gear - superb, best stuff available for level 9s. We will even go with race restricted so the gear is extremely good for their level. We are talking +4 shocking burst weapons, and +4 flaming of pure good here. Possibly +5 stat items. I'll even toss +2 tomes on every single stat, as this technically can be done at level 7. These characters have rich daddys.

Skill - better than average, they played MMOs before and understand combat mechanics, buffing / healing / tanking. They also play DDO through level 9 so they understand the capabilities of their uber toons we just handed them.

Metagaming - None - this is their first time entering this quest.

Scenario 2.

Parvo, and 5 other MV PD vets of his choice. Been playing the game a long time, know the quest. Play by the same ruleset. They are only taking what they earned in previous quests into this one, not buying one item off the AH, brokers, or vendors.

Gear - mediocre, its safe to say you usually dont pull stuff at level out of quests. In a level 8 quest you probably pull level 4 loot most of the time. These guys are walking into the Pit on 1337 with sharn weapons, less than max AC available to twinks their same level, the potions they picked up out of broken boxes, and nothing purchased off the AH brokers or vendors.

Skill - superb, not only are these guys used to living on the edge and choosing hard quests for their level, but they play together on a daily basis, understand eachothers capabilities as well as their own. Heck, I bet they already ran this on elite at or before level 9. They are reading this thinking "Chai please, we run this at level 7, not 9." :p

Metagaming - High - It is likely they all have done the quest before, as players in PD guilds live for stuff like this. We are using PD vets from the guild for this example.

Q1. Who would you bet on to make it through with more people alive?

Q2. How much of a factor is metagaming here?

Q3. How much of a factor is gear here?

Now we move onto scenario 3.

Five guys and gals fresh off the WOW boat, thinking all hack and slash, min maxing and so on. This time they join up with Parvo at the helm filling the sixth spot, who is going to lead his new recruits through the pit on 1337, on level 9 toons.

Gear - mediocre, these guys joined MV and ran their toons up to 9. They have the same gear the team in Scenario 2 has.

Skill - Better than average, and likely much better than team 1, because they all had to learn to live with what they pull and nothing else.

Metagaming - Higher than average - Even with one person in the group who knows the quest, its still easy to understand that 5 fr00bs with no idea can be lead by their chinstraps and told what to do to complete the quest. They would understand this even more in PD, because not listening to the people who do know good strategy usually = death, and it is likely these guys each learned a few similar painful lessons before reaching level 9. Even if Parvo in this scenario decided he wasnt going to spoil the quest for anyone, they could still observe and follow his lead.

Q4. Who gets through with more players alive? Team 3, or the Monte Hall funded team 1.

Q5. How much of a factor is metagaming here between team 1 and 3?

Q6. How much of a factor is gear here between team 1 and 3?

Clearly, metagaming is by far the single largest factor in ease of ability to running quests. If you could somehow measure how much of an impact changing each variable has, and give this measurement a tangible number, I think it would be clearly shown through quantification that the gap between the top variable; metagaming, and the second most impacting variable, would be much larger than the gap between the second most impacting variable, and the tenth most impacting variable.

We could be more extreme and absolute. I could make team 1 level 12 and have uncle Monte buy all the race restricted gear availaible for that level for each toon and each gear slot, and I bet the end result still doesnt change in both comparisons. Now they are running the quest with over level toons, but still have no idea.

I do think gear makes an impact. I just dont think its anywhere near the impact that extreme players floss, until you reach into the higher level quest pool and pull out some doozies. Even then, it doesnt make the huge impact that metagaming does, by far.

I think the gear arguement holds water in a linear tier level game like WOW or EQ, which are designed with this premise in mind. In these games, you cant really raid T5 without having solid T4 gear, and even if you do pull off a victory wearing sub par schlub T3 gear, its not done consistently enough to fight the uphill battle, when its easier to just put in the effort to acquire T4 gear. DDO doesnt fit this description, because there are so many tools I can tweak in a build to get the same end result, I dont even need "at level" gear until the end game.

There used to be a video of a naked WF Sorc soloing the reaver on elite at level 14 with no gear in any slots, on YouTube, and its at least a year old. Huge Metagaming + No Gear, Literally. (Heck this is practically done every three days, he just brings 11 of his friends along for more shots at loot :p)

spifflove
05-05-2010, 04:07 PM
Chai once again you make valid points but then draw false conclusions from those points:

1. MV metagames.
conclusion: this is true so MV pushes the biggest easy button in the game.
Alternate conclusion: MV metagames so does everyone. In my own experience of the pit the reason why I was running everyone to the shrine is not because they didnt metagame but because they didnt understand THE GAME.

2. You get hit with healing curse every 2 seconds at cap
Conclusion: you must use unlimited resources to counter unlimited curses.
Alternate conclusion: Warforged tank, get reconstructed. Problem solved.

3. MV elects to play limited resources
conclusion: they consider eveyone else to be Monty Haul
alternate conclusion: Er, why would I have a non pd toon if I felt that way? Many of us have come from the Sublime and have fond memories. My heart was very warmed when someone from the Sublime remembered Juxbox after a year away. As others have stated its a nonargument, we just have different but equal goals, let it go.

Chai
05-05-2010, 05:36 PM
1. MV metagames.
conclusion: this is true so MV pushes the biggest easy button in the game.
Alternate conclusion: MV metagames so does everyone. In my own experience of the pit the reason why I was running everyone to the shrine is not because they didnt metagame but because they didnt understand THE GAME.

Understanding the quest, and game, is exactly what metagaming is, in part. Its also having knowledge as a player that your character wouldnt have.

Real conclusion: EVERYONE who has played a while is pushing the biggest easy button in the game, which is why its ironic that one of us can tut tut another one of us when we are doing the same thing. LOL. Get it, got it, good, pass it on.


2. You get hit with healing curse every 2 seconds at cap
Conclusion: you must use unlimited resources to counter unlimited curses.
Alternate conclusion: Warforged tank, get reconstructed. Problem solved.

Incorrect, and also way too absolutist. I highlighted one example of a specific situation that requires specific resources. Your conclusion would hold water if this could be soloed by someone other than a blade barrier caster with curse removal spamming both and praying their blue bar doesnt run out before the boss' red bar. Some top end FvS did this a few days ago. PD group here would be a wipe. But apparently some think that this game is a linear progression in difficulty where its actually exponential higher up. If a PD group who just did a challenging level 17 quest walked in here, they would die before they ever had time to hit the "oh snap" button.

This is also just one example. A guild shouldnt be limited to bringing specific characters only into specific zones just to complete the quest, each and every time a situation like this occurs, which is more and more the higher you get, when a few specific resources will suffice.


3. MV elects to play limited resources
conclusion: they consider eveyone else to be Monty Haul
alternate conclusion: Er, why would I have a non pd toon if I felt that way? Many of us have come from the Sublime and have fond memories. My heart was very warmed when someone from the Sublime remembered Juxbox after a year away. As others have stated its a nonargument, we just have different but equal goals, let it go.

There are no generalizations about the entire guild and their opinions here. Remember, I am not the one delivering the absolutist arguement. I also have no issue agreeing to disagree, until I see more blathering about easy buttons, monte hall toons, and running lower level quests with higher level toons. Than I gotta pull someones card, and we have to talk about it.

You didnt understand my conclusion, which is that metagaming has a larger impact on the ease of running quests than all other variables combined. Yet I still hear talk about pushing the easy button, coming from specific camps, like certain parties are immune to "easy" because they dont buy stuff. My point is: We are all pushing the easy button at this point. Metagaming covers 80% of all ease running quests. Every single other variable you, me, and jesus, could possibly think of for making a quest easier can all be tossed into the other 20% of the pie chart. Mmmmmm, pie, arggghhhhh....

Real Conclusion: PDers in the higher levels are justified having resources, and they are challenging themselves as much if not more in the upper levels as other people who restrict themselves yet only metagame through 13 levels repeatedly. Party wipes in level 17 - 20 quests happen in the time it takes for you to look at this sentence and scoff.

parvo
05-05-2010, 11:26 PM
Hmmm....sounds like having strict no-spoilers rules would mitigate that easy button eh?

Mortal Voyage just got done running virgin groups through the new sentinels quests and the stand-alone. First time on hard difficulty. On elite, I was the only one in the group to ever have completed the series and my elite completion was the second time I ran the series. All characters at or below quest level. The Core did hard the same way. Virgin groups. I did the same thing with Three-barrel when it launched. Same thing with Devil's Assault (we wiped the first time on that one). Even with strict rules, most of the game is not so hard that you need prior knowledge to succeed. You just have to pay attention and hopefully react well when it hits the fan.

Sure, prior knowledge of a quest makes it easier. I think we can all agree to that. All the more reason to not spoil, but that is another topic altogether. What does that have to do with auction = harder quests?

If you want to prove auction = harder quest, mark your character as public.

Chai
05-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Hmmm....sounds like having strict no-spoilers rules would mitigate that easy button eh?

Only for the literal first timers. And only if everyone in the group is a first timer. If I have never run a quest and I am in a group with a bunch of metagamers, I can observe and survive, even if they say nothing and alert me to no danger. I have learned entire raids in non PD through observation alone, because Veteran players will just plow through the content at their own pace and say nothing, more often than not.


If you want to prove auction = harder quest, mark your character as public.

No.

This proves nothing. You will get the same answer each time.

When I say "harder quest" I am not taking about running a levl 7 quest on hard on a level 4 toon for example, where people who restrict their resources might run it at level 5 or 6. I am talking about being able to run level 19 and 20 content in PD, period. This is clearly the harder core content in the game.

You dont get to rifle through my character's accomplishments and begin judging him, because you dont have the experience to make an accurate reference in order to judge what my toon should be running or not in the 16-20 range. You are assuming that the game is a linear in progression, which it is through the 12-14 range, in all the old world quests that came out in earlier MODs, which is the content you have mastered and run repeatedly. Its not a linear progression however, in the higher levels. Since you havent passed beyond this level of difficulty on a regular basis, you havent experienced this ramp up in difficulty of play. You dont see the exponential nature of the difficulty increase, and dont have the reference required to tell me what I should be or should not be running at this level.

What I do have the experience to say is this: The REAL hard game is the higher levels. There is an exponential increase in difficulty in the 17-20 range than say 12-16. The hard core mobs in this game toss around 300 - 500 point disintegrates, teleport from room to room, and cast all the same amped up spells the players do. Boss mobs can have hp into the tens of thousands.

Not playing this content due to restrictions creates a situation where PD players who do want to experience this stuff have to make non PD toons to do so. I think its realistic to say they shouldnt have to.

Realistically, you could allow vendors at level 12 and brokers at level 15 and you would be in the higher levels. No AH would ever be needed. No items would need to be bought for your toon previous to these levels.

parvo
05-06-2010, 07:20 PM
Only for the literal first timers. And only if everyone in the group is a first timer. If I have never run a quest and I am in a group with a bunch of metagamers, I can observe and survive, even if they say nothing and alert me to no danger. I have learned entire raids in non PD through observation alone, because Veteran players will just plow through the content at their own pace and say nothing, more often than not.



No.

This proves nothing. You will get the same answer each time.

When I say "harder quest" I am not taking about running a levl 7 quest on hard on a level 4 toon for example, where people who restrict their resources might run it at level 5 or 6. I am talking about being able to run level 19 and 20 content in PD, period. This is clearly the harder core content in the game.

You dont get to rifle through my character's accomplishments and begin judging him, because you dont have the experience to make an accurate reference in order to judge what my toon should be running or not in the 16-20 range. You are assuming that the game is a linear in progression, which it is through the 12-14 range, in all the old world quests that came out in earlier MODs, which is the content you have mastered and run repeatedly. Its not a linear progression however, in the higher levels. Since you havent passed beyond this level of difficulty on a regular basis, you havent experienced this ramp up in difficulty of play. You dont see the exponential nature of the difficulty increase, and dont have the reference required to tell me what I should be or should not be running at this level.

What I do have the experience to say is this: The REAL hard game is the higher levels. There is an exponential increase in difficulty in the 17-20 range than say 12-16. The hard core mobs in this game toss around 300 - 500 point disintegrates, teleport from room to room, and cast all the same amped up spells the players do. Boss mobs can have hp into the tens of thousands.

Not playing this content due to restrictions creates a situation where PD players who do want to experience this stuff have to make non PD toons to do so. I think its realistic to say they shouldnt have to.

Realistically, you could allow vendors at level 12 and brokers at level 15 and you would be in the higher levels. No AH would ever be needed. No items would need to be bought for your toon previous to these levels.


The only reason level 19-20 are so hard for you is your character caps at 20. If the cap was 24, you would be able to easily run those like most of your other quests. You would quickly tire of them and call the new level 22-24 quests hard. The reason your groups are reaching level 19-20 quests is because of slayer XP, normal scaling and running quests with characters over level.

We don't have the same goals Chai. You want to do higher level content and don't care how you get there. I want to log in every night and have an adventure. You want to see your groups skills displayed in level 19-20 quests. I want to see my groups skill at every level. If you had the same goal as me, you could do it, and I you.

Chai
05-06-2010, 08:19 PM
The only reason level 19-20 are so hard for you is your character caps at 20. If the cap was 24, you would be able to easily run those like most of your other quests. You would quickly tire of them and call the new level 22-24 quests hard. The reason your groups are reaching level 19-20 quests is because of slayer XP, normal scaling and running quests with characters over level.

We don't have the same goals Chai. You want to do higher level content and don't care how you get there. I want to log in every night and have an adventure. You want to see your groups skills displayed in level 19-20 quests. I want to see my groups skill at every level. If you had the same goal as me, you could do it, and I you.

If you actually did these quests, and not made assumptions regarding them based on lower level experiences, you would know what you just said is false.

Fail: Assuming I am taking the easy road to get there, because I dont play by your rules, which is laughable. You continue to floss this, cause its all you got. That horse is dead bro, but keep beating it. Sheist is weak like 7 days, and old like George Burns.

P.S. Absolutism sucks. Welcome to the gray area. It aint all black and white like you're used to. I have played the game from all sides and all angles, and now I am being told whats what by someone who rocks back and forth on levels 1-13, stubbornly will not go outside that comfort zone, and somehow believes he challanges himself more than I do rollin level 19 quests 3 levels higher than my level 16 toon.

Guess I'll have to stick to my non PD toons to roll high level stuff.

Or will I?

parvo
05-06-2010, 10:33 PM
Fail: Assuming I am taking the easy road to get there, because I dont play by your rules, which is laughable. You continue to floss this, cause its all you got. That horse is dead bro, but keep beating it. Sheist is weak like 7 days, and old like George Burns.

P.S. Absolutism sucks. Welcome to the gray area. It aint all black and white like you're used to. I have played the game from all sides and all angles, and now I am being told whats what by someone who rocks back and forth on levels 1-13, stubbornly will not go outside that comfort zone, and somehow believes he challanges himself more than I do rollin level 19 quests 3 levels higher than my level 16 toon.

Guess I'll have to stick to my non PD toons to roll high level stuff.

Or will I?

I've never had a PD character above 13. That's true. But I 'm not stubborn. I'm perseverant. :p

In May of 2009, Mortal Voyage was rebuilt. Brokers were disallowed, quest level limits were placed. A few other tweaks were instituted. At that time, many players left, but many returned and many more have come to replace them. We now have lots of characters challenging mid level content. Even more are pressing up to mid level. They gain skill and teamwork faster then guilds that allow constant easy questing...

...We'll press hard this summer to higher levels. The quests will be tough. We will lose characters along the way. Those loses will be miserable, but we'll persevere. We'll travel a road most can't handle. A brutal road filled with death and wailing. Some will give up, carrying the shame of weakness for the rest of their days. We'll mourn the fallen but challenge ourselves to learn from the fall. Our journey is the victory. Our triumphs match the losses we endure along the path. Our hard fought victories will raise a cheer like no other. Will you hear those cheers from Tangleroot Gorge, Sorrowdusk Isle, Ataraxia's Haven, The Sands of Menechtarun, and The Vale of Twilight? If you pause your slaying for a moment, you just might...

Blairgowrie
05-06-2010, 10:54 PM
Man ... can't we all just get along:rolleyes:

This bickering back and forth is not good for your guilds nor for PD in general, yes you are reaching a wider audience, but they are all sitting back with buttered popcorn in hand watching the drama.

Folks, let's face it you are not going to convince each other that your way is the only way, let's agree to disagree and go game ... all I'm saying!!

As Obi Wan said "... move along nothing to see here"

Cheers

Blair

Chai
05-07-2010, 12:09 AM
Man ... can't we all just get along:rolleyes:

This bickering back and forth is not good for your guilds nor for PD in general, yes you are reaching a wider audience, but they are all sitting back with buttered popcorn in hand watching the drama.

Folks, let's face it you are not going to convince each other that your way is the only way, let's agree to disagree and go game ... all I'm saying!!

As Obi Wan said "... move along nothing to see here"

Cheers

Blair

You are right here, as always, but...

Here we have a situation where the indirectly nominated and directly celebrated spokesperson of PD in DDO is basically flossing a "my way or the highway" attitude, even wanting to go as far as personally examining my quest list with a fine tooth comb to explain to me how I am somehow making it too easy on myself. This goes beyond some low level personal bickering, and becomes important to discuss, because new players and VETS alike trying PD need to see that there is more than just this one view. There are quite a few talented people sitting on the fringes right now wanting to try this, but the largest arguement I hear against it in the non PD crowd who want to try PD is "we want to be able to do all the content."

I am sure you have noticed the join rate increace as of late. Some of these people are already trying TOR, and talking about VON 5-6. I have seen some of these guys throw down their "A game" in non PD, and I wil say this. I dont believe they will stop there at TOR. They also have a clear understanding of how the difficulty level in the game ramps up, when this occurs, and understand what is needed to win in the higher end game.

These individuals should not be lead to believe that they are not challenging themselves.

That being said, youre right, I am not convincing anyone who doesnt already agree with me. I have however, stated the case for those individuals who want to bring PD to the highest levels in the game. Its already been done, and these people are all with it, however, the majority of these individuals havent even been guilded yet...

parvo
05-07-2010, 06:39 AM
Man ... can't we all just get along:rolleyes:

This bickering back and forth is not good for your guilds nor for PD in general, yes you are reaching a wider audience, but they are all sitting back with buttered popcorn in hand watching the drama.

Folks, let's face it you are not going to convince each other that your way is the only way, let's agree to disagree and go game ... all I'm saying!!

As Obi Wan said "... move along nothing to see here"

Cheers

Blair

I've been bickering with someone or another for the better part of four years and I don't see how it's harmed any guild or PD play in the least. To the contrary, we have more diversity in rule sets and more players trying PD because of it. I recall one such debate when discussing raises performed at level six. When I stated it was too easy to get to level six and most players could attain it in a couple of weeks, I was told ~"History indicates otherwise". I suppose Chai has history on his side as an argument but just like the level six raise discussion, history is an argument that lacks vision for what will be. Pioneers don't rely on history to chart a course and niether should permadeath players.

parvo
05-07-2010, 06:52 AM
Chai, just becasue I personally don't think your rule set is challenging doesn't mean I think others should play that way. I'm glad for different rule sets. If a player feels entitled to the highest content within a couple of months of joining PD, I often direct them to a different guild than Mortal Voyage. I have link to Sublime and other PD guilds right on the Mortal Voyage website. I welcome players to try it and find their own conclusion. In fact, I'm guessing many have done just that.

See here:
http://www.mortalvoyage.com/links.php

Mo, I just realized I need to update The Core link. I haven't looked at that in a long while.

Chai
05-07-2010, 08:11 AM
I've been bickering with someone or another for the better part of four years and I don't see how it's harmed any guild or PD play in the least. To the contrary, we have more diversity in rule sets and more players trying PD because of it. I recall one such debate when discussing raises performed at level six. When I stated it was too easy to get to level six and most players could attain it in a couple of weeks, I was told ~"History indicates otherwise". I suppose Chai has history on his side as an argument but just like the level six raise discussion, history is an argument that lacks vision for what will be. Pioneers don't rely on history to chart a course and niether should permadeath players.

History CAUSES pioneers to chart a course, and it continues to repeat itself until that course is changed, which is a decision made due to not wanting history to continue repeating itself.

Nerd reference of the day: There is the Theory of the Moebius, a twist in the fabric of space, where time becomes a loop, from which there is no escape.

eldervamp
05-08-2010, 09:49 AM
Greetings...

First this is a very good topic, good points on all sides of the issue.

Here is what I think would solve Chai's problem with wanting to see PD playing in game content.

Start a PD guild and allow privilages to open up in your rule set as you level up.

Example: No venders, no AH on characters until they reach level 10 (so they learn the basic's of PD and group tactics). Then at level 10 they can have 1 vendor/AH item. Level 12 they can have 2 vendor/AH items. etc... So at end game the can have 6 vendor/AH items to complete the end game quests but they still have the PD playstlye and don't just become vendor/AH *****s.

Also you could put on their that once they bought an items they have to list it in their bio (can not sell and buy new items once they have selected one).

Just an idea.

Personnal I like the MV ruleset. I call the guild home. Used to be an end game player, but the game lost it's fun. PD has reminded me of the fun of teamwork, and is a close to PnP DnD as I have found.

Eldervamp

Chai
05-08-2010, 04:43 PM
Start a PD guild and allow privilages to open up in your rule set as you level up.

Example: No venders, no AH on characters until they reach level 10 (so they learn the basic's of PD and group tactics). Then at level 10 they can have 1 vendor/AH item. Level 12 they can have 2 vendor/AH items. etc... So at end game the can have 6 vendor/AH items to complete the end game quests but they still have the PD playstlye and don't just become vendor/AH *****s.

Also you could put on their that once they bought an items they have to list it in their bio (can not sell and buy new items once they have selected one).



I like the idea and I have had similar ideas. However...

The issue here is this kind of incremental ruleset usually requires having active enforcement of rules, and I believe self policing is the best enforcement there is. Usually when you go completely one way or completely the other way, self policing works. No one really wants to be a hall monitor and check peoples gear every time period or so just to make sure that someone hasnt been too promiscuous with the AH. :p

This falls in line with what I said earlier, people looking for a challenge can write as tedious or as skimpy of a ruleset they want to, but it still amounts to pushing yourself harder in order to make it more challenging. There are already guilds in place that accomodate this, so there is no real need for myself to create another, which would divide the talent in that pool up even further.

Weidman
05-08-2010, 05:27 PM
Thats is what we have started doing every 5 levels you get to purchase 1 item from the ah it must be listed in your bio along with your heirloom item, it seems so far to work really well as most grab up a nice armor item 1st, with the heirloom being a weapon most times it works out well



Ramstrez

parvo
05-09-2010, 06:54 PM
...This falls in line with what I said earlier, people looking for a challenge can write as tedious or as skimpy of a ruleset they want to, but it still amounts to pushing yourself harder in order to make it more challenging. There are already guilds in place that accomodate this, so there is no real need for myself to create another, which would divide the talent in that pool up even further.

There's plenty of room for growth of permadeath play. Another well run guild will do nothing but increase exposure and grow the catagory.

kafrielveddicus
06-03-2010, 09:37 AM
Proof a permadeath group can run high level stuff without using the AH or brokers: Mortal Voyage Static Two. Movan is in that group with Dorlosh, Vhrothgeer, Kreapea, Os, and Nazjazz. We have completed Running With the Devils on hard, Rainbow in the Dark on hard, the Coalescence Chamber on hard, Let Sleeping Dust Lie on hard. Death means failure, though in the best case it would be getting a raise, everyone recalling out, recording it in your bio and -1 to half your base con (rounded up) to determine the number of times you can be rezzed.

So we completed all those quests without a single death. Movan dual-wields Sunblades for kicks, though I know my light maces of acid, electric, blah blah blah do more damage. The Sunblades were pulled from chests while he was running in Mortal Voyage. Tell Movan what's possible Chai.

And this would be the one biggest point about challenge in permadeath, when you run in a full group questing is much easier and has a much larger breathing space for error and bad dice rolls, because there is always someone there to pick up the slack and change the situation when it starts to go bad, this is even more the case when you have 6 experienced players.

kafrielveddicus
06-03-2010, 09:52 AM
Chai, just becasue I personally don't think your rule set is challenging doesn't mean I think others should play that way. I'm glad for different rule sets. If a player feels entitled to the highest content within a couple of months of joining PD, I often direct them to a different guild than Mortal Voyage. I have link to Sublime and other PD guilds right on the Mortal Voyage website. I welcome players to try it and find their own conclusion. In fact, I'm guessing many have done just that.

See here:
http://www.mortalvoyage.com/links.php

Mo, I just realized I need to update The Core link. I haven't looked at that in a long while.

Ahhhh, Parvo, LOL, ROFLMAO, where is the link to my guild on the Mortal Voyage site, ROFLMAO!!!!!!

parvo
06-03-2010, 06:54 PM
Ahhhh, Parvo, LOL, ROFLMAO, where is the link to my guild on the Mortal Voyage site, ROFLMAO!!!!!!

If I ever meet another PD player who likes to run the same quest ten times in a row exactly the same way and doesn't mind being told exactly what to do, where to stand, what to cast, etc, I'll send them your way Narc.

kafrielveddicus
06-07-2010, 02:55 PM
If I ever meet another PD player who likes to run the same quest ten times in a row exactly the same way and doesn't mind being told exactly what to do, where to stand, what to cast, etc, I'll send them your way Narc.

Sorry our rules clearly state that you can run each quest once only on each setting, so that equals running each quest at most 4 times for loot/xp at most.

People in our guild are welcome to run in what ever style they wish (including zerging), that is called freedom of playstyle, do you welcome that in your guild or do you have rules to isolate people that wont plaay the game your way!!! LOL

For those that are interested, if you try out PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda, just know that you will not become anybody's personal biatch for questing, play as you want and enjoy the company of those that are similar in style to yours!!!

Chai
06-07-2010, 04:09 PM
And this would be the one biggest point about challenge in permadeath, when you run in a full group questing is much easier and has a much larger breathing space for error and bad dice rolls, because there is always someone there to pick up the slack and change the situation when it starts to go bad, this is even more the case when you have 6 experienced players.

I would like to see some PDers in the following quests, and I dont think I am setting a high expectation here.

Bastion of Power.

A New Invasion.

Sins of Attrition.

The luxury you enjoy for being able to set the pace in most quests gets tossed out the door with teleporting mobs and long narrow hallways. In many quests leveling all the way up, the players have the luxury of creeping down the hallways as slowly as needed and resting, recouping, regrouping when needed, in order to set the pace for the quest. This luxury goes bye bye in the quests I listed and presents an entirely new style of challenge. Many skilled non PDers have soloed these brute force style, so it should not be much of a challenge for 6 experienced VET PDers to complete right?

parvo
06-07-2010, 07:39 PM
Sorry our rules clearly state that you can run each quest once only on each setting, so that equals running each quest at most 4 times for loot/xp at most.

People in our guild are welcome to run in what ever style they wish (including zerging), that is called freedom of playstyle, do you welcome that in your guild or do you have rules to isolate people that wont plaay the game your way!!! LOL

For those that are interested, if you try out PD Halls of Valhalla on Ghallanda, just know that you will not become anybody's personal biatch for questing, play as you want and enjoy the company of those that are similar in style to yours!!!

I've quested with you Narc. I was there when you started PD, lured in by a post on the forum about the brown spider spince Ruin. I remember your 6 con elves failing repeatedly until you finally figured out HP matters (even when your running the same quest 10 times in repetition to farm XP). So maybe you've changed your style a bit and maybe your rules reflect that, but I haven't changed my style much at all. I still love the tough quest with enough genuine challenge that players must step up their game or risk character loss. I still can't stand grinding through consistently easy quests just to progress a character. That's why I don't play the way Chai proposes. Unlimited resources makes the game a yawn. Perhaps level 20 quests do require top notch twink gear, but if the price to pay for that is grinding through 19 levels of puke-yawn to get there, no thanks.

parvo
06-07-2010, 07:41 PM
I would like to see some PDers in the following quests, and I dont think I am setting a high expectation here.

Bastion of Power.

A New Invasion.

Sins of Attrition.

...

With unlimited resources, you should have already completed those quests in PD right?

Duncani_Daho
06-07-2010, 08:37 PM
I would like to see some PDers in the following quests, and I dont think I am setting a high expectation here.

Bastion of Power.

A New Invasion.

Sins of Attrition.

The luxury you enjoy for being able to set the pace in most quests gets tossed out the door with teleporting mobs and long narrow hallways. In many quests leveling all the way up, the players have the luxury of creeping down the hallways as slowly as needed and resting, recouping, regrouping when needed, in order to set the pace for the quest. This luxury goes bye bye in the quests I listed and presents an entirely new style of challenge. Many skilled non PDers have soloed these brute force style, so it should not be much of a challenge for 6 experienced VET PDers to complete right?

Easy. Those quests would be nothing but pure easy cheesy on normal, with twf's dual-wielding vorpals, a mage for extended displacement, and a favored soul healbot.

Sorry, but a much better challenge would be exactly what we faced in the Core yesterday. Desert Caravan on hard, level appropriate toons (no xp penalty for being over level).

Or just try Taming the Flames on hard, max level 6's.

Those two quests (Taming the Flames and Desert Caravan) in the core would be TEN TIMES more difficult than Shavarath quests with twinked out pd toons running on normal. Sorry.

For the boss in one particular quest (I won't say b/c it would be spoiling) just kite him around with a ranger using the simple silver longbow and silver arrows bought from house D.

kafrielveddicus
06-08-2010, 03:10 PM
I've quested with you Narc. I was there when you started PD, lured in by a post on the forum about the brown spider spince Ruin. I remember your 6 con elves failing repeatedly until you finally figured out HP matters (even when your running the same quest 10 times in repetition to farm XP). So maybe you've changed your style a bit and maybe your rules reflect that, but I haven't changed my style much at all. I still love the tough quest with enough genuine challenge that players must step up their game or risk character loss. I still can't stand grinding through consistently easy quests just to progress a character. That's why I don't play the way Chai proposes. Unlimited resources makes the game a yawn. Perhaps level 20 quests do require top notch twink gear, but if the price to pay for that is grinding through 19 levels of puke-yawn to get there, no thanks.

I find it unnecessary to defend myself against you.

To the people in the public domain, all you need do is read the repeated posts from both parties and make your own decisions on what is what. Oh, and please feel free to contact me and ask questions about what my guild is doing for fun and challenge in the game, I can also speak for the core of people that are playing in Sublime(they are a very friendly and welcoming group with a wide open playstyle), when it comes to permadeath it is very important that you make your guild selection thru an educated choice of rules and playstyle(There is an official permadeath guild listing in this section of the forums).

A warning to those that have no idea about this be very careful that you dont end up in a guild that is conform or be cast out!!!

parvo
06-08-2010, 07:48 PM
I find it unnecessary to defend myself against you.

To the people in the public domain, all you need do is read the repeated posts from both parties and make your own decisions on what is what. Oh, and please feel free to contact me and ask questions about what my guild is doing for fun and challenge in the game, I can also speak for the core of people that are playing in Sublime(they are a very friendly and welcoming group with a wide open playstyle), when it comes to permadeath it is very important that you make your guild selection thru an educated choice of rules and playstyle(There is an official permadeath guild listing in this section of the forums).

A warning to those that have no idea about this be very careful that you dont end up in a guild that is conform or be cast out!!!

I think folks are pretty aware of their choices. I've sent quite a few to guilds outside Mortal Voyage because there is a better fit elsewhere. My sincere hope is they are happy wherever they land.

Chai
06-09-2010, 10:21 PM
Easy. Those quests would be nothing but pure easy cheesy on normal, with twf's dual-wielding vorpals, a mage for extended displacement, and a favored soul healbot.

Sorry, but a much better challenge would be exactly what we faced in the Core yesterday. Desert Caravan on hard, level appropriate toons (no xp penalty for being over level).

Or just try Taming the Flames on hard, max level 6's.

Those two quests (Taming the Flames and Desert Caravan) in the core would be TEN TIMES more difficult than Shavarath quests with twinked out pd toons running on normal. Sorry.

For the boss in one particular quest (I won't say b/c it would be spoiling) just kite him around with a ranger using the simple silver longbow and silver arrows bought from house D.


Who said anything about "on normal". these have been soloed on elite by Non PDers, so a Pd group could clean house, right?

What I am implying here is that the standard PD playstyle in lower to mid level quests does not apply. Cautiously sneaking around all these dungeons has become a crutch that cant be leaned on at higher levels.

Kiting while having to remove curses that allow no healing, and running all over the trap activation boxes....meh.....There are better ways to beat him.

Chai
06-09-2010, 10:46 PM
With unlimited resources, you should have already completed those quests in PD right?

Unlimited resources?

Oh yeah, you are again implying that because I dont play under a 30 page constitution that specifically restricts buying and selling, that means everyone is just steezed out by level 10. I get it now. :D

Just like you imply that the same case scenario means farming slayer zones and running stuff on casual and normal, just because there is no grand wall of text that states otherwise.

Nay.

I wish you would have played with us in NWN. There is no DDO PD like that. Rolling for hp each level, No crazy stat stacking, AC stacking, weapons with all kinds of effects on them. Casters prepped spells from the chart straight out of the book and rested once every 2 RL hours. Walls of fire didnt crit into the thousands. No heroic HP for level 1s. Glowing magic items were rare. Dumpstatting usually meant death at some point, due to a severe weakness.

Duncani_Daho
06-10-2010, 12:13 AM
Who said anything about "on normal". these have been soloed on elite by Non PDers, so a Pd group could clean house, right?

What I am implying here is that the standard PD playstyle in lower to mid level quests does not apply. Cautiously sneaking around all these dungeons has become a crutch that cant be leaned on at higher levels.

Kiting while having to remove curses that allow no healing, and running all over the trap activation boxes....meh.....There are better ways to beat him.

Contrary to what others have stated, the ruleset of a permadeath guild is very important for determining the degree of challenge they will face. If your ruleset allows me to run stuff on normal, I will. It's much better if you just don't have a choice: it forces you out of your comfort zone. For example, you are level 12 and you want xp. What's it going to be? Gianthold on hard (not too difficult) or Enemy Within on hard (much more difficult, especially if you can't shrine).

Any guild that allows repeating quests at a previously run difficulty, or running higher level stuff (like Gianthold) on normal, should be grinding Weapons Shipment on normal until you get all the gear you want.

Duncani_Daho
06-10-2010, 12:31 AM
I forgot to mention in my last post: when it comes to playing a game, have fun and play it anyway you choose that doesn't interfere with anyone else's fun. The combat system and huge variety of characters make DDO a source of endless enjoyment.

But when it comes to achievement, relativity stops there. Certain achievements are greater than others, and completing quests in some guilds is a greater achievement than in others. If you are looking to quest in a permadeath guild with the most challenging ruleset, The Core on Khyber is the place to be.

Permadeath play solves a lot of the nagging issues certain players have finding good pug groups. And even if you enter a non-pd dungeon crawlers guild, there is no great chance that your noob character will be on par with the established characters in the guild. But in The Core, your character will be roughly equal in power and ability to others of the same level in the guild. And since we can't repeat content on the same difficulty, I can't level up my level 10 bard/ranger until we get that new player's level 4 up in level. We are all in the same boat together. And we're sailing onto glory!

Chai
06-10-2010, 09:38 AM
Contrary to what others have stated, the ruleset of a permadeath guild is very important for determining the degree of challenge they will face. If your ruleset allows me to run stuff on normal, I will. It's much better if you just don't have a choice: it forces you out of your comfort zone. For example, you are level 12 and you want xp. What's it going to be? Gianthold on hard (not too difficult) or Enemy Within on hard (much more difficult, especially if you can't shrine).

Any guild that allows repeating quests at a previously run difficulty, or running higher level stuff (like Gianthold) on normal, should be grinding Weapons Shipment on normal until you get all the gear you want.

I force myself out of my own comfort zone, and do not require a set of bylaws to do so. I also have played with many people, both in PD and non PD who do the same. I have played in ironman groups up to cap, as well as have a few decked out toons. I believe I am qualified to make the statements I make because I have seen all aspects.

Many people who try to disagree with me on these types of issues have to IMPLY that I took an easier road to get to where I am, in order to make what I am saying sound less plausible. A guild doesnt have a restricting ruleset so faulty reasoning suggests that people just farm slayers and run quests on casual and normal repeatedly to get xp. You are allowed to shop the AH, so faulty reasoning suggests that means everyone is just steezed out in the best gear and has hundred stacks of all potions.

The level of complacency you are pointing to kicks in regardless of how much of a restricting ruleset you play under. When I researched the guilds to determine who I wanted to play with, I did 6 months of looking at rulesets and talking to other PD players, and above all else, observing guilds playstyles and website activity shortly after MOD 9. I wanted to make sure I would get the same level of enjoyment out of DDO DP as I did in NWN PD. I learned that it just not the same, due to not really being able to enforce anti complacency rules.

One PD player I talked to on Sarlona had used an xp increasing potion, and in two different situations, I ran into people who were farming muckbanes. I even saw someone fall off a cliff in the harbor and die, and then look around to see if there was anyone who mattered watching, then jumped into Cerulean Hills. Ive seen people come out of korthos quests at level 2 with pure good weapons equipped, then change their weapons out when in the public area.

Yes, I see the level of complacency you are speaking of, even in the guilds who have the hardest rulesets. When I first thought of joining PD in DDO, I was as obsessed as you guys about making it as hard as possible. Then I learned there is a downside to this, as I learned the same when managing a PD server in NWN. In order to have the tough ruleset, you have to practically be a cop to enforce it. If youre not, then the level of complacency I witnessed over my 6 month delving into the PD world in DDO sets in, and regardless of what you see on paper, people make it easier for themselves.

The real question is: Who do you want to police how hard of a path you take. I think the best answer to that question is: Yourself.

Thus, I gravitated to playing with the most laid back people in DDO. Semantics matter little to them, so the need to banter these semantics does not exist. They challenge themselves to make the game fun, and do not require this to be written in blood, signed and notarized, and filled out in triplicate to be filed away for future reference. They also dont need to make quips that imply someone is taking an easier path in order to attempt overshadowing others accomplishments. I gravitate to playing with congratulators, and leave the rules lawyering to people who passed the bar exam.

Chai
06-10-2010, 09:54 AM
I forgot to mention in my last post: when it comes to playing a game, have fun and play it anyway you choose that doesn't interfere with anyone else's fun. The combat system and huge variety of characters make DDO a source of endless enjoyment.

This I can agree with.


But when it comes to achievement, relativity stops there. Certain achievements are greater than others, and completing quests in some guilds is a greater achievement than in others. If you are looking to quest in a permadeath guild with the most challenging ruleset, The Core on Khyber is the place to be.

This I cannot agree with. For those of us who understand that quest challenge increases exponentially when the level bar is raised past 16, this simply is not the case.

Instead of ramping up the rules, and then having to put on our rent-a-cop hats and glaze donut stained uniforms to enforce them, lets ramp up the quests, like I suggested. I keep hearing excuses as to why we should not do this, but I am not seeing anyone trying it.

I have experienced both ends of this spectrum. Have you?

parvo
06-10-2010, 05:41 PM
...I wish you would have played with us in NWN. There is no DDO PD like that. Rolling for hp each level, No crazy stat stacking, AC stacking, weapons with all kinds of effects on them. Casters prepped spells from the chart straight out of the book and rested once every 2 RL hours. Walls of fire didnt crit into the thousands. No heroic HP for level 1s. Glowing magic items were rare. Dumpstatting usually meant death at some point, due to a severe weakness.


I wish I had too Chai. Sounds fun.

parvo
06-10-2010, 06:18 PM
This I can agree with.



This I cannot agree with. For those of us who understand that quest challenge increases exponentially when the level bar is raised past 16, this simply is not the case.

Instead of ramping up the rules, and then having to put on our rent-a-cop hats and glaze donut stained uniforms to enforce them, lets ramp up the quests, like I suggested. I keep hearing excuses as to why we should not do this, but I am not seeing anyone trying it.

I have experienced both ends of this spectrum. Have you?

Unfortunately, even in PD, there are a few players who intentionally break the rules. In three years of running Mortal Voyage, I've expelled maybe three players for rules violations. I admit, it can be a little uncomfortable sometimes. Times like those are certainly not why we play the game. But if you whitnessed other players cheating you should have confronted them. Instead of attacking the player with no integrity, you choose to attack the rules themselves? I understand the discomfort of confrontation, but that's no reason to eliminate a rule that makes PD more exciting.

As for level 16 quests, I'm guessing they aren't that difficult for level 20 characters with access to everything they want. It doesn't sound challenging to me. To me, it's all about the adventures of a character with uncertain ending. If PD becomes so easy, that level 16 or 20 is just a matter of grinding it out, what use is PD play? Just do that in normal play.

Now, a level 16 quest on hard with max level 17 characters who have no auction or broker gear and don't buy commodity magic...that sounds challenging. In fact, even getting there under those types of rules is a great challenge.

Chai
06-11-2010, 03:08 PM
As for level 16 quests, I'm guessing they aren't that difficult for level 20 characters with access to everything they want. It doesn't sound challenging to me. To me, it's all about the adventures of a character with uncertain ending. If PD becomes so easy, that level 16 or 20 is just a matter of grinding it out, what use is PD play? Just do that in normal play.



/Sigh. Here we go assuming that level 16 quests are being run over level with twink gear. I have already pointed out umpteen times that they are not. Not having a huge ruleset doesnt mean everyone is pimped out and on easy street. You will continue to comically imply this over and over again, even though you yourself know it to be inaccurate.

The very last quests my 16 cleric did before I stopped playing for a bit were level 19 quests. He doesnt have endless supplies on him, nor did the other toons in the group.

As far as reporting the people who I witnessed violating the rules, if you have read the last few posts I created, you will see that I do not want to be a cop and have to enforce rules all the time. I log on to play the game, not to look over others shoulders. This is why I still believe that self enforcement is the best policy. I know you understand this, but you have to deny it, because to not do so challenges the necessity of heavy rulesets.

parvo
06-11-2010, 08:13 PM
/Sigh. Here we go assuming that level 16 quests are being run over level with twink gear. I have already pointed out umpteen times that they are not. Not having a huge ruleset doesnt mean everyone is pimped out and on easy street. You will continue to comically imply this over and over again, even though you yourself know it to be inaccurate.

The very last quests my 16 cleric did before I stopped playing for a bit were level 19 quests. He doesnt have endless supplies on him, nor did the other toons in the group.

As far as reporting the people who I witnessed violating the rules, if you have read the last few posts I created, you will see that I do not want to be a cop and have to enforce rules all the time. I log on to play the game, not to look over others shoulders. This is why I still believe that self enforcement is the best policy. I know you understand this, but you have to deny it, because to not do so challenges the necessity of heavy rulesets.

Hmmm...lets take a look right now...ahh, I see there are four characters questing outside the harbor...levels 9, 10, 10, 11 doing Greymoon's Den...

Look, I'm not here to bash your style or guild but get real, most of the questing there isn't difficult. It's like when Van got all upset when someone mentioned he was level 16 in the VoN raid. Instead of getting all defensive and mad over it, just accept the reality. You would rather play in a guild where it's easier to level a character up high levels than one that is harder to do it. Why is that so hard to say?

I understand you don't want to play cop. No one does. Self enforcement of the rules works very well. However, if you happen to observe someone cheating, you should get out of your comfort zone and call them out. Otherwise you might as well pug. I also realize some folks just don't like rules. When I played PnP, I had friends who took one look at my books and said "No way. That game is not for me". I'm glad those folks have somewhere else to play.

~Zornochio
06-12-2010, 04:57 PM
For the most part, Parvo is right Chai. Yes there are players that seek out challenge in PD guilds with more open rulesets but that is mostly the long-time players in the higher levels. A lot of the newer members and even old members at the lower levels will avoid risk. Parvo's complaints in this thread have been mostly about easy questing on the way to the high-level challenging runs. With a bit of prodding you can convince a lot of them to run those tougher quests and get them into a permadeath mindset, but left to themselves they solo overlevel on normal and do slayer.

His assumption about the 20's running easy content is wrong though, and I don't agree with Duncan that The Core & MV accomplishments mean more than other PD guilds. "Challange" is different to each player and for some soloing Waterworks on Normal at level 5 for the first time is quite a feat. (I died the first time I tried to solo it :) )

Chai
06-12-2010, 10:11 PM
Hmmm...lets take a look right now...ahh, I see there are four characters questing outside the harbor...levels 9, 10, 10, 11 doing Greymoon's Den...

again, SELF policing, with emphasis on the word self. Dont look at other people and try to interpret that I do the same. You keep pushing this, because its the only ammo you have in order to disagree with me. again I have seen all sides of the spectrum. You see one side, then look in from outside at the other view and interpret it as being easier.


Look, I'm not here to bash your style or guild but get real, most of the questing there isn't difficult. It's like when Van got all upset when someone mentioned he was level 16 in the VoN raid. Instead of getting all defensive and mad over it, just accept the reality. You would rather play in a guild where it's easier to level a character up high levels than one that is harder to do it. Why is that so hard to say?

Its "hard to say" because its incorrect, and I dont lie. Here again you attempt to continue to pushing a fallacy into the picture and beat it like a drum. I enforce my own difficulty level. Ask anyone in the guild if you want. There is usually a discussion of a few minutes to determine what quest(s) are the right difficulty for our level and party make up.

I think its you who refuses to believe that if there is no hard line ruleset in place, people will do as they wish. You are having a hard time accepting that there are people who play as hard as you do, and dont have a ruleset in place. This is because they dont need one. I have already pointed out the reality here. People will do as they wish anyhow. If it means breaking the rules, then they find better ways to hide it. Those of us who are in it for the right reasons clearly understand this.


I understand you don't want to play cop. No one does. Self enforcement of the rules works very well. However, if you happen to observe someone cheating, you should get out of your comfort zone and call them out. Otherwise you might as well pug. I also realize some folks just don't like rules. When I played PnP, I had friends who took one look at my books and said "No way. That game is not for me". I'm glad those folks have somewhere else to play.

I have done this many times when I had the authority to do so. But when I dont belong to a guild, and I am observing them from a distance, me poking my head in and trying to tell them how to run things is going to look like me trying to trash talk their guild, when I am not even a member or have experienced playing with them.

Now on the NWN server we built, yes, I had to enforce rules. It was alot easier because we didnt have to adjust play for an MMO's game mechanics. For example, I observed some people cheating and respawning after a party death and playing the same toons a few days later. We wrote a script that took out the respawn mechanism on the server in response to this. If you died, you had 30 min to get a raise. You could not send a tell to anyone when dead to come rescue you (the dead do not speak or cry for help). If not raised in 30 min, the body decayed and all your stuff was on the ground for looting. If mobs were around, they would loot the pile, and the next player who tried to kill them would have to fight a more difficult encounter, as the mobs used your stuff to defend themselves.

In ddo, the only tool you have for enforcement is confrontation and expulsion from the guild if necessary. Alot of these situations cannot be proven, so it requires self policing. With the toolset I had, I could make darn sure people were playing under the intended ruleset, with no mall cop attitude necessary. I could build it right into the game mechanics if need be.

Chai
06-12-2010, 10:30 PM
For the most part, Parvo is right Chai. Yes there are players that seek out challenge in PD guilds with more open rulesets but that is mostly the long-time players in the higher levels. A lot of the newer members and even old members at the lower levels will avoid risk. Parvo's complaints in this thread have been mostly about easy questing on the way to the high-level challenging runs. With a bit of prodding you can convince a lot of them to run those tougher quests and get them into a permadeath mindset, but left to themselves they solo overlevel on normal and do slayer.

His assumption about the 20's running easy content is wrong though, and I don't agree with Duncan that The Core & MV accomplishments mean more than other PD guilds. "Challange" is different to each player and for some soloing Waterworks on Normal at level 5 for the first time is quite a feat. (I died the first time I tried to solo it :) )

I understand what Parvo is saying, but he is being way to absolute. His view on things is by far not always the case, even in non PD. I see non PD players challenging themselved harder than metagaming their way through the same levels of content over and over again. This comes with the understanding that metagaming is the easy button and not having better gear.

I agree with your second statement, due to something I posted in this same thread a while ago. Metagaming is the single biggest easy button in the game. Not being able to buy stuff is making it 10% more difficult on someone who already knows the quest by heart. The other 90% quest difficulty comes from not being able to metagame.

I bet in MV and even in the Core, most deaths are born of complacency, just like in most other cases with veteran players. People get too comfortable, a slight lapse occurs, and then a situation breaks out that requires 100% game focus and concentration. Metagamers usually only die when they were not 100% on top of their game in the first place.

Duncani_Daho
06-13-2010, 02:27 AM
I understand what Parvo is saying, but he is being way to absolute. His view on things is by far not always the case, even in non PD. I see non PD players challenging themselved harder than metagaming their way through the same levels of content over and over again. This comes with the understanding that metagaming is the easy button and not having better gear.

I agree with your second statement, due to something I posted in this same thread a while ago. Metagaming is the single biggest easy button in the game. Not being able to buy stuff is making it 10% more difficult on someone who already knows the quest by heart. The other 90% quest difficulty comes from not being able to metagame.

I bet in MV and even in the Core, most deaths are born of complacency, just like in most other cases with veteran players. People get too comfortable, a slight lapse occurs, and then a situation breaks out that requires 100% game focus and concentration. Metagamers usually only die when they were not 100% on top of their game in the first place.

Metagaming. Since you never define it, that term could mean a lot of different things. Do you mean prior knowledge of a quest? Knowing what's up ahead? Or expliciting planning and talking about what strategies will be used at various points in the quest?

If you mean prior knowledge, sorry, that's unavoidable unless they release a new update every week. We ran The Sentinels quests on hard without shrining or dying. We let the rogue go first (since we didn't know if there were any traps, much less where they might be), used classic tactics of divide and conquer, and had a blast. No deaths to report. No metagaming involved.

Now what about when we repeat that series on elite, or with new characters? If someone insists that we should have a rogue for the quest, is that metagaming? No, I don't think so. It's just Dungeons and Dragons commonsense.

If you mean "spoiling" (talking in advance about quest features like what's around the next corner, traps, etc) everyone in the guild agrees that it's wrong and we don't do it.

Another example. We are going into The Bloody Crypt on hard. Since we have been fighting undead nasties throughout, the fighter suggests to the cleric, can you bring Searing Light? That's not metagaming, it suits what Dungeons and Dragons characters would say before a campaign vs. undead enemies.

And we purposefully avoid quests where the quest description says "Constructs blah blah blah" if we don't have the weapons to be effective vs. them. It's not metagaming to assume an elf assassin would look at the npc asking for help against constructs and say, "No thanks, I'd rather kill hobgoblins."

Your basic point is clearly wrong though: prior knowledge is the easy button. I know exactly what's in Taming the Flames. Does "metagaming" make it easy? Depends on what pd guild you're running in Chai. Are you running it on hard, max level 8's, no House P or J buffs, no heirlooms, no spoiling, no bought consummable magic, and no traded items of any kind except via chest, and lastly, no shrines? Please tell me there's an easy button there for completing that quest.

Fact is, it will be harder running that quest in The Core than any other pd guild in DDO, and we like it that way. I made the rules of The Core to strip the player of easy buttons, taking the standard rules of challenging pd play from Mortal Voyage, and refining them even more to increase the challenge. If you have prior knowledge, like most of the players in The Core do, you better strip away available resources like shrines, bought or traded items, etc. If you don't, leveling up a toon will be a CAKE WALK with occassional voluntary challenges. Boring...

A step up from The Core, a super-hardcore guild, would involve no choice at all. You can't decide to skip challenging quests like Devil Assault and Taming the Flames before you level up. I mentioned this further Milestone feature of a possible pd ruleset but ppl weren't too interested. And if we had it in The Core, the only people playing in it would be me and Naz, and maybe a few others.

Duncani_Daho
06-13-2010, 03:00 AM
This I can agree with.



This I cannot agree with. For those of us who understand that quest challenge increases exponentially when the level bar is raised past 16, this simply is not the case.

Instead of ramping up the rules, and then having to put on our rent-a-cop hats and glaze donut stained uniforms to enforce them, lets ramp up the quests, like I suggested. I keep hearing excuses as to why we should not do this, but I am not seeing anyone trying it.

I have experienced both ends of this spectrum. Have you?

Name the quest (except Titan) and I have done it. If you're talking permadeath, we have a group banking xp but Movan is 1 xp shy of level 19. The agreed upon rules of this static pd group is pretty tough, tougher than what I know about Sublime and other guilds. No AH, no brokers, run at highest available difficulty, number of raises limited to half base con.

So I know about level 17+ quests. And you know as well as I do, there are A TON of easy quests, and easy explorer xp to be had level 17+. Do you have a choice on what quests, and what difficulty they can be run on? Getting from level 17 to level 18 COULD BE a challenge, if everyone agrees to make it a challenge. But if people are only occassionally running a tough quest or two, then it is exactly what it is, occassional challenge.

You claim to have experienced "both ends of the spectrum." Well, I don't know of any open guild or even static that comes close to The Core. We ARE that side of the spectrum. But maybe you can enlighten me. Since you also claim to know the various pd rulesets and The Core's in particular (We were running full stream when Mod9 was released, Mobararo has the scars to prove it, and he just leveled to 13.), maybe you can tell me the ironman rules you were running by that would let you know The Core's end of the spectrum.

As far as policing goes, I thought about that one before establishing the guild. The no-soloing rules does 99.99% of the policing for me. People would be simply too embarassed to whip out an AH bought (secret purchase) vorpal and cut some mobs head off. More subtle forms of cheating are possible and I don't worry about them in the slightest. We had a new player who played a warforged who would disconnect whenever she saw a rust monster. And she disconnected whenever Sleet Storm was cast. And she disconnected while in a party, although she was solo'ing in Tangleroot, when a named ogre magi hit her with a lightning bolt and dropped her to a sliver of health.

She lied at first and then confessed to using Alt-F4 to bail herself out. No police needed but a simple tell: we don't use that in The Core.

The kind of player who would look at our rules and want to join us just wouldn't be into cutting corners and cheating. The kind of player who would secretly cheat wants to solo in explorer areas and level fast. Or solo quests above his level. Although it's had its detractors, the no-solo rule has been great for the guild. That being said, I still relish glazed donuts while sitting around in my cop outfit.

diamabel
06-13-2010, 04:15 AM
Not really.

Yeah, you can get lucky and pull a boss beater weapon (silver AND good on the same weapon for instance) or a greater bane weapon, but you are not going to survive on the mana potions you pull alone, nor will you survive in the high end game on the remove curse / disease potions you pull alone. There are aspects of the game skill doesnt account for.

Needing a high to hit in epic quests is a good example. There are mobs in these quests that have AC in the 70s. I dont consider it lazy to search the auction hall for +5 greater bane weapons for different types of mobs for my level 20 toons. This is smart play. When I am attacking trash mobs and I can hit them more often than not, I know that each and every plus those weapons are giving me counts. Having access to the AH, and end game gear, was taken into account when creating these quests, and people are imbalancing themselves when not using the resources available to stay in the game at these levels.

I understand people do this on purpose to create more of a challenge in all levels of the game, but this is why they are capping in the mid levels. When they finally do die off, its not usually due to lack of skill, but lack of resources.


Just a question. Say you have a strength score of 40, a +5 weapon and are a level 20 fighter. Your to hit would approximately be at 40. Now add some more modifiers to it, because of spells and stuff. Let's be generous and say your to-hit is modified by another +10. You need to roll a 50+1d20 and see if you get higher than the oponents AC.
That means you will be hitting someone with an AC ~70 only 5% of the time (every 20th swing). It would seem that melee would be useless against such a foe. Before you splatter the monster it would rather splatter you.
Dunno, the AC seems somewhat too high. You can evaluate the combat log afterwards. You can have the dice results logged too and by this information you could infer the true AC.


Back to topic. No matter whether you play PD or normal. If you buy the best available armour (+5 / adamantite or mithral, depending on your build) a good shield (+5, tower or standard shield) you can go very far. It's a huge advantage vs melee monsters and archrs to have a decent AC. So yes, getting better equipment will make quests easier. But then, doing deleras graveyard with a level 5 wizard with hold undead makes the quest incredibly easy too. Different group setups make quests more challenging or more easy. Certain builds make it even easier to do a quest (sometimes a good sneaker can pull levers without alarming nearby monsters and thus avoid a fight -> thus saving resources). Knowing the quests also helps a lot.

The quests always stay the same. The other apsects I summed up will (hopefully) improve with time. At a certain point you can only get a decent challenge if you do quests above your level, and there the game mechanics strike back. Say your party is level 4 and while doing a level 6-7 quest you run into mephits or fire elementals. Energy resists will not help much and energy protection is only available next level (or with wands/pots). You can try skip the mephits (e.g. hypnotism/bard song/sneaking by). But if you need to kill them (quest objective) you will have to make some kind of battleplan (here again knowledge of the quest helps and certain classes offer an advantage). There are just too many conditions that define the real difficulty.

Duncani_Daho
06-13-2010, 05:29 PM
Just a question. Say you have a strength score of 40, a +5 weapon and are a level 20 fighter. Your to hit would approximately be at 40. Now add some more modifiers to it, because of spells and stuff. Let's be generous and say your to-hit is modified by another +10. You need to roll a 50+1d20 and see if you get higher than the oponents AC.
That means you will be hitting someone with an AC ~70 only 5% of the time (every 20th swing). It would seem that melee would be useless against such a foe. Before you splatter the monster it would rather splatter you.
Dunno, the AC seems somewhat too high. You can evaluate the combat log afterwards. You can have the dice results logged too and by this information you could infer the true AC.


Back to topic. No matter whether you play PD or normal. If you buy the best available armour (+5 / adamantite or mithral, depending on your build) a good shield (+5, tower or standard shield) you can go very far. It's a huge advantage vs melee monsters and archrs to have a decent AC. So yes, getting better equipment will make quests easier. But then, doing deleras graveyard with a level 5 wizard with hold undead makes the quest incredibly easy too. Different group setups make quests more challenging or more easy. Certain builds make it even easier to do a quest (sometimes a good sneaker can pull levers without alarming nearby monsters and thus avoid a fight -> thus saving resources). Knowing the quests also helps a lot.

The quests always stay the same. The other apsects I summed up will (hopefully) improve with time. At a certain point you can only get a decent challenge if you do quests above your level, and there the game mechanics strike back. Say your party is level 4 and while doing a level 6-7 quest you run into mephits or fire elementals. Energy resists will not help much and energy protection is only available next level (or with wands/pots). You can try skip the mephits (e.g. hypnotism/bard song/sneaking by). But if you need to kill them (quest objective) you will have to make some kind of battleplan (here again knowledge of the quest helps and certain classes offer an advantage). There are just too many conditions that define the real difficulty.

If your character can see the mephits, your party can plan the attack or strategy for avoiding them. But it's spoiling if before you enter the quest you talk strategy about what you'll do at the second summoning fire, etc... "I see a flesh render down the hallway, what do you guys want to do about him?" Nothing wrong with that.

Duncani_Daho
06-13-2010, 07:26 PM
As I stated before, it's also perfectly permissable to talk about monsters described by the quest description in the quest panel: in Co6 the npc specifically mentions mephits, so it makes good sense for the group to discuss the best strategy for dealing with such enemies.

Chai
06-14-2010, 08:10 AM
Just a question. Say you have a strength score of 40, a +5 weapon and are a level 20 fighter. Your to hit would approximately be at 40. Now add some more modifiers to it, because of spells and stuff. Let's be generous and say your to-hit is modified by another +10. You need to roll a 50+1d20 and see if you get higher than the oponents AC.
That means you will be hitting someone with an AC ~70 only 5% of the time (every 20th swing). It would seem that melee would be useless against such a foe. Before you splatter the monster it would rather splatter you.
Dunno, the AC seems somewhat too high. You can evaluate the combat log afterwards. You can have the dice results logged too and by this information you could infer the true AC.


Back to topic. No matter whether you play PD or normal. If you buy the best available armour (+5 / adamantite or mithral, depending on your build) a good shield (+5, tower or standard shield) you can go very far. It's a huge advantage vs melee monsters and archrs to have a decent AC. So yes, getting better equipment will make quests easier. But then, doing deleras graveyard with a level 5 wizard with hold undead makes the quest incredibly easy too. Different group setups make quests more challenging or more easy. Certain builds make it even easier to do a quest (sometimes a good sneaker can pull levers without alarming nearby monsters and thus avoid a fight -> thus saving resources). Knowing the quests also helps a lot.

The quests always stay the same. The other apsects I summed up will (hopefully) improve with time. At a certain point you can only get a decent challenge if you do quests above your level, and there the game mechanics strike back. Say your party is level 4 and while doing a level 6-7 quest you run into mephits or fire elementals. Energy resists will not help much and energy protection is only available next level (or with wands/pots). You can try skip the mephits (e.g. hypnotism/bard song/sneaking by). But if you need to kill them (quest objective) you will have to make some kind of battleplan (here again knowledge of the quest helps and certain classes offer an advantage). There are just too many conditions that define the real difficulty.

All of this stuff can be overcome with metagaming. the more metagaming there is the easier this stuff gets. With veteran players you almost have to blindfold them to see them fail. They might even succeed then. :p Level 20 toons can be buffed well to hit high AC in epic quests when people know how buff stacking works. Even 10 fire resist goes a long way against mephits.

My point here is that metagaming is the largest easy button in the game. On a percentage scale having the ability to buy gear from brokers and AH make the game 10% easier while knowing the quest well enough to be able to get past traps and load spells for the right mobs makes up the other 90%. Even knowing which way to go is a huge resoure saver. Some of these guys cant shrine due to their ruleset. Knowing the quest inside and out helps to cut back on resources due to not wasting them walking down the wrong halls and doing unnecessary rooms.

Think taming the flames is tough before level 7? On my NWN server there would be 15 different versions of a zone that could possibly load. Think of how fun that would be if it was a new map each time with different things in different locations.

Chai
06-14-2010, 08:20 AM
Name the quest (except Titan) and I have done it. If you're talking permadeath, we have a group banking xp but Movan is 1 xp shy of level 19. The agreed upon rules of this static pd group is pretty tough, tougher than what I know about Sublime and other guilds. No AH, no brokers, run at highest available difficulty, number of raises limited to half base con.

Here we go with rules again. I have already explained my views on having and needing rules to make it challenging. Everythingyou stated in what I quoted negates everything you typed below that due to one simple fact. You still are trying to floss that having a harder ruleset means tougher gaming. This again is only the case when people want to make it easier on themselves. I have found that they do this even in the guilds with the more strict rulesets.

I name a few specific quests as examples, and you go off again talking and implying that people without rulesets farm slayers and do the easier high level content. This is not only weak, its getting old. Until you can break yourself from this mindset and look at the specifics that encompass my post, this will continue to be a circular conversation, simply due to the fact that you cant get your mind off rules.

I did all the easier level 19 quests at 16. Already stated this alot more than once as well. Now go ahead and type up another circular post about how having harder rules makes your questing tougher. This is still all you got. There is no other point you can make here other than to imply that everyone else but you is pushing the easy button.

I prefer to be a congratulator, but to do so implies understanding that accomplishments are not undermined just because you do or do not have a ruleset.

Gandalfs_Ghost
06-14-2010, 10:53 AM
Hmmm...lets take a look right now...ahh, I see there are four characters questing outside the harbor...levels 9, 10, 10, 11 doing Greymoon's Den...

Sounds like a group I was in. We wanted to run Co6 elite but one of us hadnt done greymoon so we ran it for them. Started as a 3 man group then a 4th joined after we finished the first chapter. So we ran ch1 twice to get that person "on the chain". Thats the nice thing about not having "no repeat" rules, we can help each other out without worrying about whos run what. Then someone else joined and we went off and hit the gianthold instead. Never did get to Co6. Ah well, maybe when were level 20 or so. :P
Edit: as far as Van taking a 16 into the dragon, was the only toon he had available and as we were not able to field a group of level appropriate toons we decided to go ahead and run it with what we had. For the fun of it. And Im sorry to report but we did have fun regardless.

parvo
06-14-2010, 12:49 PM
...My point here is that metagaming is the largest easy button in the game. On a percentage scale having the ability to buy gear from brokers and AH make the game 10% easier while knowing the quest well enough to be able to get past traps and load spells for the right mobs makes up the other 90%. Even knowing which way to go is a huge resoure saver. Some of these guys cant shrine due to their ruleset. Knowing the quest inside and out helps to cut back on resources due to not wasting them walking down the wrong halls and doing unnecessary rooms...

The biggest easy button in the game is questing beneath character level and practically unlimited XP from explorer zones. Yesterday I checked on your guild again and there were character levels 10, 9, 7 in Proof is in the Poison. That's why you have more characters in the mids. It's not questing. It's grinding easy riskless XP. This is what self imposed quest selection leads to. Metagaming has nothing to do with it.

MV has run virgin groups through every new module in our range. The only one that failed was Devils Assault. If Metagaming is 90% and gear is 10%, how do you think we were successful?

kafrielveddicus
06-14-2010, 12:56 PM
I bet in MV and even in the Core, most deaths are born of complacency, just like in most other cases with veteran players. People get too comfortable, a slight lapse occurs, and then a situation breaks out that requires 100% game focus and concentration. Metagamers usually only die when they were not 100% on top of their game in the first place.

I agree with you on most things you have stated Chai, and even on this statement to a certain extent, but the truth is in full groups you can have complacency, a slight lapse or even be reckless and death is still very unlikely with veteran players. As you have indicated before some of the higher level quests can easily be soloed with the right class and if you have others there to shield that class from injury these are a cake walk with or without gear. To make the game a challenge in a full group atmosphere you would have to run quests on elite setting only at the level of quest(on elite) or be lower level than that. Certainly anything lower than elite setting is just not that tough.

As Gederix(from Sublime) indicated, it is important to have a balance of fun with challenging. You own personal self imposed rules can make any ruleset more challenging and bravo to you for taking it apon yourself to do this.

Don't let anyone tell you what you are doing is not a challenge, gathering a full group of people and then chest thumping is just as much an easy button as any other, even though it is still an accomplishment.

parvo
06-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Sounds like a group I was in. We wanted to run Co6 elite but one of us hadnt done greymoon so we ran it for them. Started as a 3 man group then a 4th joined after we finished the first chapter. So we ran ch1 twice to get that person "on the chain". Thats the nice thing about not having "no repeat" rules, we can help each other out without worrying about whos run what. Then someone else joined and we went off and hit the gianthold instead. Never did get to Co6. Ah well, maybe when were level 20 or so. :P
Edit: as far as Van taking a 16 into the dragon, was the only toon he had available and as we were not able to field a group of level appropriate toons we decided to go ahead and run it with what we had. For the fun of it. And Im sorry to report but we did have fun regardless.

"No Repeat" rules don't keep players from doing what quests they want. It just keeps the cheese XP down. In my guild, if your character gets to level nine and hasn't done Greymoon yet, you start looking for a group to run elite.

I'm sure you have fun, and that's the real point, but folks play PD for different reasons and you have to understand the point of players who don't like the auction house and brokers. With every new update, progression of characters in DDO has gotten easier. It's reasonable to have some PD guilds with tighter rule sets that enjoy tougher progression.

Chai
06-14-2010, 03:16 PM
The biggest easy button in the game is questing beneath character level and practically unlimited XP from explorer zones. Yesterday I checked on your guild again and there were character levels 10, 9, 7 in Proof is in the Poison. That's why you have more characters in the mids. It's not questing. It's grinding easy riskless XP. This is what self imposed quest selection leads to. Metagaming has nothing to do with it.

MV has run virgin groups through every new module in our range. The only one that failed was Devils Assault. If Metagaming is 90% and gear is 10%, how do you think we were successful?

I am not saying you cant succeed when not metagaming, I am saying it is the single largest aspect by far that makes the game easier. How is running those quests nowdays compared to back then? Much easier I assume...

Id still put metagaming way higher than running quests at higher level, when it comes to making things easy street. I do see people doing what you say, but on my PD toons I avoid it. I dont justify running quests when too high level. For the sake of example, lets put a bunch of level 6 vets in the pit, and a bunch of level 8 newbies in the same quest. Who do you think makes it out alive? :p

To apply what I stated before regarding metagaming, I still bet that you or I could solo PIITP on elite at level 5 easier than a full group of level 5s who have never been in there could run it on normal or hard.

Having run the quest enough, you know exactly what to do in each room and which rooms to enter. The newbies are opening each door and hoping that traps dont explode in their faces.

Chai
06-14-2010, 03:22 PM
"No Repeat" rules don't keep players from doing what quests they want. It just keeps the cheese XP down. In my guild, if your character gets to level nine and hasn't done Greymoon yet, you start looking for a group to run elite.

How do you run elite with no repeat? Are you just not repeating on the same difficulty? I could still farm ALOT of xp under this rule...


I'm sure you have fun, and that's the real point, but folks play PD for different reasons and you have to understand the point of players who don't like the auction house and brokers. With every new update, progression of characters in DDO has gotten easier. It's reasonable to have some PD guilds with tighter rule sets that enjoy tougher progression.

I understand. I have played iron man toons back in the level 10 - 14 cap days, when things were much much harder than they are now, with all the care bear options in the game. Throwing weapons were viable, weapons with effects on them were rare, and plus 4 shock weapons were uber. People actually used the blessed club to smack the ghost skellys in Deleras, because thats all they had to hurt dr #/good...

Gandalfs_Ghost
06-14-2010, 03:48 PM
We did run greymoon on elite, I guess I didnt specify.

was gonna say more but came to my senses

parvo
06-14-2010, 06:20 PM
I am not saying you cant succeed when not metagaming, I am saying it is the single largest aspect by far that makes the game easier. How is running those quests nowdays compared to back then? Much easier I assume...

Id still put metagaming way higher than running quests at higher level, when it comes to making things easy street. I do see people doing what you say, but on my PD toons I avoid it. I dont justify running quests when too high level. For the sake of example, lets put a bunch of level 6 vets in the pit, and a bunch of level 8 newbies in the same quest. Who do you think makes it out alive? :p

To apply what I stated before regarding metagaming, I still bet that you or I could solo PIITP on elite at level 5 easier than a full group of level 5s who have never been in there could run it on normal or hard.

Having run the quest enough, you know exactly what to do in each room and which rooms to enter. The newbies are opening each door and hoping that traps dont explode in their faces.

I ran Proof is in the Poison in a pretty decent no spoilers fashion the first time in, back when I was Sublime. Narc couldn't keep quiet about some of the traps but other than that, it was almost like a virgin run. Although a couple members in the group had been in the quest one time before, they failed it. It's been a long time ago, but if I remember right, we suceeded (second attempt for some in the group). It used to be a lot tougher quest, but it was doable. Metagaming is overated. There's very little there that can't be scouted or played well the first time in. Having said that, I won't deny familiarity makes it easier. You learn how to prepare, how long between shrines and such. What really kills me is veterans metagaming with twinked toons in quests below character level. Very few players join PD with that type of mindset and I bet when they see it the first time it's a big turnoff. Regardless of wether it's PD or not, zerging through easy quests is no different than PUG play. PD should look different than PUG play, not just at the highest levels.

parvo
06-14-2010, 06:37 PM
How do you run elite with no repeat? Are you just not repeating on the same difficulty? I could still farm ALOT of xp under this rule...

In Mortal Voyage we don't re-run the same difficulty. At the low levels, an experienced adventurer can level pretty fast. However, there comes a point pretty quick where elite quests at level are daunting. Even with an outstanding group, something like Threnal elite with max level 12's (untwinked) or VoN I-IV elite with max level 11's (untwinked) is a great challenge. It's not impossible to progress, but it takes a lot of focus, teamwork, skill and even luck.



I understand. I have played iron man toons back in the level 10 - 14 cap days, when things were much much harder than they are now, with all the care bear options in the game. Throwing weapons were viable, weapons with effects on them were rare, and plus 4 shock weapons were uber. People actually used the blessed club to smack the ghost skellys in Deleras, because thats all they had to hurt dr #/good...

When you play without auction or brokers, it's not uncommon for half the party to be turkey-legging Delera's. I've been in larger parties where that was our only option. Having limited equipment and running with characters at or below level makes it more challenging and fun.

Duncani_Daho
06-14-2010, 06:45 PM
All of this stuff can be overcome with metagaming. the more metagaming there is the easier this stuff gets. With veteran players you almost have to blindfold them to see them fail. They might even succeed then. :p Level 20 toons can be buffed well to hit high AC in epic quests when people know how buff stacking works. Even 10 fire resist goes a long way against mephits.

My point here is that metagaming is the largest easy button in the game. On a percentage scale having the ability to buy gear from brokers and AH make the game 10% easier while knowing the quest well enough to be able to get past traps and load spells for the right mobs makes up the other 90%. Even knowing which way to go is a huge resoure saver. Some of these guys cant shrine due to their ruleset. Knowing the quest inside and out helps to cut back on resources due to not wasting them walking down the wrong halls and doing unnecessary rooms.

Think taming the flames is tough before level 7? On my NWN server there would be 15 different versions of a zone that could possibly load. Think of how fun that would be if it was a new map each time with different things in different locations.

Yeah, I think Taming the Flames max level 6 is tough. And you still haven't told me how metagaming is the easy button to help you through that quest.

Brokers and Auction House make the game 10% easier? This is purely a bad joke: smiters, banishers, vorpals, paralyzers, and disruptors, CAN BE purchased and used around levels 10-12. With those toys you can make leveling up to 17 a joke.

Not sure what metagaming means to you, but getting to level 16 in The Core will be a huge accomplishment. There is no easy way around it, Chai. If we self-impose easier rules, leveling up will be easy.

It's not a circular arguement, it's just a fact. Traps: If you can buy +15 search and +15 disable, and your wizard can shrine repeatedly so that giving the party Greater Heroism all the time is no problem, the traps in level 10-14 quests will not be a problem. Well, they are a severe obstacle for us to overcome in The Core. With limited raise deads allowed to your character (1/2 base con in The Core), you don't want to trust your "metagaming" knowledge by trying to jump through a trap in The Wizard King or Chains of Flame.

Your point about knowing which direction to choose in quests, and therefore how to conserve resources to do it without shrining, is absolutely right. And the logical conclusion then is: if you know the quests so well, you should run them without shrining.

You claim to face challenge as you level up your character. But you don't provide specifics. You talk about level 18 stuff, but everything you say just leads one to believe that levels 1-16 are irrelevant because "metagaming" makes the game too easy. Our Tempest Spine, Von4, Western Threnal runs are hard and exciting because of our ruleset. The only way to counter-act prior knowledge is to limit resources: shrines, AH, brokers, twinky cakes.

Chai
06-15-2010, 01:52 PM
Yeah, I think Taming the Flames max level 6 is tough. And you still haven't told me how metagaming is the easy button to help you through that quest. .

Because I know exactly where to go and what to do. This knowledge is worth more than anything you can buy on the AH. It minimizes resource consumption, because the group knows the order of operations, where to go, which areas to avoid, etc. A group who does not know wanders around spending elevendy twelve times the number of resources trying to fight respawns and do the items in the quest completion list.


Brokers and Auction House make the game 10% easier? This is purely a bad joke: smiters, banishers, vorpals, paralyzers, and disruptors, CAN BE purchased and used around levels 10-12. With those toys you can make leveling up to 17 a joke.

Vorpals are only better if it takes more than 20 swings to kill a mob, unless everyone in the groups has vorpals and are all attacking the same mob at the same time. How many mobs take more than 20 swings to kill again? Most of these are imune to vorpals anyhow. Vorpals are actually better in amrath than they are in the vale numberwise.

Banishers are all or nothing. Damage is tried and true. You live by the banisher you DIE by the banisher. Go ahead and waltz into Running with the Devils on hard or elite with a pair of banishers, never switch weapons, and see what happens. I bet you dont make it past the break in fight onthe rampo to the elementals. Office pool?


Not sure what metagaming means to you, but getting to level 16 in The Core will be a huge accomplishment. There is no easy way around it, Chai. If we self-impose easier rules, leveling up will be easy.

I agree here, because you are talking about self imposing rules, just like I am. Not mass imposing, SELF imposing. If you self impose rules that make it harder, its harder. No encyclopedia brittanica sized ruleset required.


It's not a circular arguement, it's just a fact. Traps: If you can buy +15 search and +15 disable, and your wizard can shrine repeatedly so that giving the party Greater Heroism all the time is no problem, the traps in level 10-14 quests will not be a problem. Well, they are a severe obstacle for us to overcome in The Core. With limited raise deads allowed to your character (1/2 base con in The Core), you don't want to trust your "metagaming" knowledge by trying to jump through a trap in The Wizard King or Chains of Flame.

The traps arent an issue with quest knowledge and metagaming. I can plow chains of flame solo and make it through all traps due to metagaming. You make it sound like these quests are hard. If you know the quest, its a 20 minute ordeal tops, not even zerging. If you zerg it, it can be done faster. Metagaming is the single largest easy button. Someone who has good twitch skills can do this quest super fast if they can bridge hop, which is faster than I can with my lack of mario bros. certified skillz.

Like I stated previously, I have seen both sides, and all extremes. I have played iron man style for 7 months before getting to level 12, and I have also gone on zerging leveling sprees in non PD where we roll up a level 1 on friday and flag for the shroud on the same toon on sunday.


Your point about knowing which direction to choose in quests, and therefore how to conserve resources to do it without shrining, is absolutely right. And the logical conclusion then is: if you know the quests so well, you should run them without shrining.

I do, just not in PD. In non PD during leveling we rarely shrine. Its not an enforced rule, its just a fact. We blow these quests apart. We are talking one minute completions of each quest on CO6 on elite here. It takes longer to run back to the ogre to get the next quest than it does to plow it using metagaming and nothing else. 12-15 minute elite chamber of rayium, and this can be done solo on an at level butt naked sorc riding a zebra, so dont give me any of this nonsense about gear. :p


You claim to face challenge as you level up your character. But you don't provide specifics. You talk about level 18 stuff, but everything you say just leads one to believe that levels 1-16 are irrelevant because "metagaming" makes the game too easy. Our Tempest Spine, Von4, Western Threnal runs are hard and exciting because of our ruleset. The only way to counter-act prior knowledge is to limit resources: shrines, AH, brokers, twinky cakes.

Here is the ages old screen shot or S7FU arguement. You might be right about counteracting prior knowledge, but this is only possible to a certain extent. I wish there was a way to counteract metagaming, because if there was, youd eat those words. People who played on my PD server in NWN learned this. Some zones had 15 different maps and when the group zoned in, a map randomly loaded for them from the list.

And I have gotten specific many times, you are just glossing over them. I will repeat one of those examples. Take a group of veteran players, level 6s and 7s into the pit on hard with your ruleset. Shove a group of noobs who have never run the quest into the pit on hard. Make them level 9. Allow them to shrine. Who comes out alive? This is how much easier metagaming makes it for veteran players, and its unavoidable.

Metagaming. The single largest easy button in the game for long time players. Gear is the icing on the cake, and is only really needed in specific circumstances.

Chai
06-15-2010, 02:14 PM
In Mortal Voyage we don't re-run the same difficulty. At the low levels, an experienced adventurer can level pretty fast. However, there comes a point pretty quick where elite quests at level are daunting. Even with an outstanding group, something like Threnal elite with max level 12's (untwinked) or VoN I-IV elite with max level 11's (untwinked) is a great challenge. It's not impossible to progress, but it takes a lot of focus, teamwork, skill and even luck.

Are players allowed to farm the 100k xp or so that is available in Delera's alone? How about the 200k that is available in shadow series, or the 200k in the VON series. How about the 50k that is available each in Tear, Gwylans, and Stormcleave? Its 1.9 mil xp to level 20. Thats about 33% of the way there. just doing these quests, N-H-E. If only doing on hard and elite, thats still roughly 25% of the total xp needed for level 20.


When you play without auction or brokers, it's not uncommon for half the party to be turkey-legging Delera's. I've been in larger parties where that was our only option. Having limited equipment and running with characters at or below level makes it more challenging and fun.

Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Of course this was back in the days of: "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the plus 5 shock heavy repeating crossbow."

The only real challenge I have seen in PD so far -vs- non PD is actually getting a toon high enough level to run the harder stuff. The reason for this is no matter how skilled -or- geared you are, the dice still rolls a 1 approximately 1 in 20 rolls. I have lost interest in playing full time PD because of this. I still log on a few times a week to hang with the people I met, and play part time PD.

When my toon dies, I either did something completely ******** and deserve it, or I got killed by the dice.

kafrielveddicus
06-15-2010, 02:19 PM
I ran Proof is in the Poison in a pretty decent no spoilers fashion the first time in, back when I was Sublime. Narc couldn't keep quiet about some of the traps but other than that, it was almost like a virgin run. Although a couple members in the group had been in the quest one time before, they failed it. It's been a long time ago, but if I remember right, we suceeded (second attempt for some in the group). It used to be a lot tougher quest, but it was doable. Metagaming is overated. There's very little there that can't be scouted or played well the first time in. Having said that, I won't deny familiarity makes it easier. You learn how to prepare, how long between shrines and such. What really kills me is veterans metagaming with twinked toons in quests below character level. Very few players join PD with that type of mindset and I bet when they see it the first time it's a big turnoff. Regardless of wether it's PD or not, zerging through easy quests is no different than PUG play. PD should look different than PUG play, not just at the highest levels.

That's some very nice baiting Parvo, LOL, so again I will avoid defending myself to your lame comments that you are hoping I will defend so you can try a second round to try and pick me apart, and notice I won't bother to waist my time picking you apart, LOL.

parvo
06-15-2010, 06:33 PM
Are players allowed to farm the 100k xp or so that is available in Delera's alone? How about the 200k that is available in shadow series, or the 200k in the VON series. How about the 50k that is available each in Tear, Gwylans, and Stormcleave? Its 1.9 mil xp to level 20. Thats about 33% of the way there. just doing these quests, N-H-E. If only doing on hard and elite, thats still roughly 25% of the total xp needed for level 20..

We don't run normal. If you think you can "farm" VoN elite with max level 11 character and no auction or broker gear, without spoilers, come on over and show us how it's done. It's not impossible, but it takes a solid group, practice and time. Chances are, characters will die. That's no longer called farming. It's called adventure. That's been my point all along. Same thing with the Shadow series elite. At max character level 11, it's not impossible, but you're not farming it either. Even with access to everything your PD guild allows, I bet it's never been done there. They'd go in with level 14's or something.




...The only real challenge I have seen in PD so far -vs- non PD is actually getting a toon high enough level to run the harder stuff...

This doesn't make a lot of sense but I think it kind of gets to the point.

Duncani_Daho
06-15-2010, 07:21 PM
Chai, you clearly demonstrate that you know next-to-nothing about hardcore permadeath play. Anybody who says metagaming makes elite traps trivial is clueless. And if you think knowing exactly where to go in Taming the Flames on hard, with Core rules, would make that easy, then you are god and we should all quit playing the game to worship you. Lastly, vorpals and banishers are overrated... I beg to differ. When a 4000 hp mob can be taken down with one swing... ah, nevermind. Nothing below level 18 is challenging for you.

Circus of Shadows comes out soon. No metagaming allowed :)

Twinky cakes on normal.

Duncani_Daho
06-15-2010, 07:24 PM
Lastly, Chai, metagaming only works if you know the quest-- several guys in The Core have never played pug and never seen quests above level 11. So you're wrong to assume we all have the same experience as you, knowing in an omniscent fashion where every trap is in every quest and exactly where and when to jump to avoid it.

parvo
06-15-2010, 11:24 PM
Lastly, Chai, metagaming only works if you know the quest-- several guys in The Core have never played pug and never seen quests above level 11. So you're wrong to assume we all have the same experience as you, knowing in an omniscent fashion where every trap is in every quest and exactly where and when to jump to avoid it.


This is an important point. Even when someone in the party is familiar with the quest, if no-spoilers is adhered to, it's not like being hand-held through it. Solid no-spoilers play teaches players to watch their surroundings, listen to the Dungeon Master, read quest info and look for consistent design elements. Done right, good players will quickly learn how to give their party a fighting chance without metagaming.

Chai
06-16-2010, 10:26 AM
Lastly, Chai, metagaming only works if you know the quest-- several guys in The Core have never played pug and never seen quests above level 11. So you're wrong to assume we all have the same experience as you, knowing in an omniscent fashion where every trap is in every quest and exactly where and when to jump to avoid it.

No one assumed anything. You only need one player who knows the quests in the group. If everyone is smarter than the mace they are carrying, they will follow in that persons footsteps.

If you are the expert player and I am the beginner, all I have to do is follow you around and I dont walk through traps, unless you walk through them on purpose. I also have to follow you around the quest to save resources, as you will go to the right locations to achieve the quest objectives. Even if you are trying not to verbally spoil everything, your every action is a spoiler because you are not going to intentionally play like you dont know the quest and kill yourself in traps etc. In order to understand the huge impact of metagaming, you must first understand that every action an expert player who knows the quest is taking can be used to metagame the quest.

1 veteran could easily lead 5 noobs through the pit or taming the flames if they are willing to listen, or play along with the experienced players in a no spoilers situation, and they had better be willing in a PD situation. If theyre not, they get to learn how to metagame korthos, because they will be real familiar with it.

You are also not mentioning that you metaselect past quests you know you cant accomplish because of the ruleset. By creating a ruleset, you are making easy quests harder, but also, on the other end, you are making harder quests impossible. I say, lets just play the harder quests. Go ahead and try to refute this. How many times have you guys done the TOR? Have you fought any dragons at all? In order to balance what you feel is too easy, you are unbalancing the challenging quests, and then avoiding them.

P.S. This entire "you are wrong" thing is getting old. The fact that you keep saying this tells me how absolutist your feelings really are regarding the situation, and your accomplishments being more earned than others are. Its not an all or nothing issue. Welcome to the gray area, please stay a while. :p

Chai
06-16-2010, 10:34 AM
This is an important point. Even when someone in the party is familiar with the quest, if no-spoilers is adhered to, it's not like being hand-held through it. Solid no-spoilers play teaches players to watch their surroundings, listen to the Dungeon Master, read quest info and look for consistent design elements. Done right, good players will quickly learn how to give their party a fighting chance without metagaming.

Already used this in a reply to Duncan, but I will reply to you as well.

Unless the expert players who know the quest walk in and stand there like a lump, accomplish nothing, and make the newbies do all the work, there is metagaming afoot.

If you are the expert player and I am the beginner, all I have to do is follow you around and I dont walk through traps, unless you walk through them on purpose. I also have to follow you around the quest to save resources, as you will go to the right locations to achieve the quest objectives. Even if you are trying not to verbally spoil everything, your every action is a spoiler because you are not going to intentionally play like you dont know the quest and kill yourself in traps etc. In order to understand the huge impact of metagaming, you must first understand that every action an expert player who knows the quest is taking can be used to metagame the quest.

Example:

On a toon with no spot, when you know theres a trap in the hallway, do you walk through it and kill your toon because the toon doesnt technically have the knowledge you as a player have, or do you stop, because you know there is a trap right infront of you due to playing the quest eleventy twelve times before?

parvo
06-16-2010, 12:32 PM
...1 veteran could easily lead 5 noobs through the pit or taming the flames if they are willing to listen, or play along with the experienced players in a no spoilers situation, and they had better be willing in a PD situation. If theyre not, they get to learn how to metagame korthos, because they will be real familiar with it....

This may be true when the characters are over the level of the quest and have access to whatever they want in gear and such and spoil freely. I can say with certainty under the rule set I play PD with, those quests are challenging (on hard). On elite, they are more so. I've seen some great PD veterans get hosed in those. Not impossible, but challenging for sure.

Chai
06-16-2010, 12:51 PM
This may be true when the characters are over the level of the quest and have access to whatever they want in gear and such and spoil freely. I can say with certainty under the rule set I play PD with, those quests are challenging (on hard). On elite, they are more so. I've seen some great PD veterans get hosed in those. Not impossible, but challenging for sure.

No, its true under all case scenarios, save for the scenario where the veterans are making the newbies do all the work and tagging along. How often does this happen before those new players are now metagaming the same quests as well?

These are usually one off cases at best.

Great PD veterans get hosed when they are either killed by the dice - which WILL roll a 1 eventually, or they get too complacent in a quest they know real well. Metagaming =/= invincible. What it does do is make quests much easier than any other one factor in the game makes quests easier.

When experienced players get TOO comfortable and over confident, they might miss a specific danger they would have otherwise avoided. (Hey guys, watch this, BLAM, DOH!!!) (runs over to the dead end to pick up that collectible, trap explodes, DOH!!!) or some such other example.

A quick trip back to Korthos serves as a reminder to not get complacent and overconfident. It does not however, mean that metagaming is or is not taking place. You are again comparing apples and oranges, in another attempt to imply that I or we run quests over level and that somehow has to do with the level of metagaming that takes place, which is again incorrect, on both counts. The fact that you have to continue to use these implications to attempt to prove your point is becoming more entertaining and less annoying each time this is done. Soon, I wont even need to generate a response, as merely pointing this out will be all that is necessary to show anyone who reads this the futile nature of denying that metagaming is always occurring really is.

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
But you are relying on the rest of the group to complete end-game content/raids. And probably everything else. In pd one wipe and its back to korthos. One could argue that the lazy impatient one is the person who doesn't bother to equip oneself appropriately and instead relies on others to make up for their shortcomings.

I do agree that if one does play in a pd guild that allows the AH/brokers and you are not then running appropriately challenging content then there really is no difference between that and any other guild or pug. For me the excitement of running tangleroot on hard/elite with level 3-4 toons (or whatever) really isnt there, boringgggg, but stepping into say Mired in Kobolds or Rainbow in the Dark or the final Dreaming Dark quest or Prey of the Hunter or... whatever (especially the first time) with a pd toon, very intense. Losing a <10 level toon in pd? Pfft, who cares. Losing a level 15 or 18? Brutal. But that's my opinion, and that's why there's a variety of pd guilds.

Why would you delete a perfectly fine character, especially at that high of a level? It seems like a waste of time to me. If I had a level 20 and it got deleted by some PD elitist who hacked my account because I died, I would quit the game. I know that's a bit insane to assume that anyone would do that, but I'm just being real. If I lost a level 20 character or it became useless, I would just quit.

If I ever did join a PD guild, I would quit the instant they told me to re-roll. There is no ****ing way I would redo all that I just did. I could actually use a PD guild to avoid noobs, but I would eventually quit when I leveled enough. If those guys think I'm doing the same quest 100 times because they can't progress to the higher level quests, they are dead wrong.

Chai
06-16-2010, 01:35 PM
Why would you delete a perfectly fine character, especially at that high of a level? It seems like a waste of time to me. If I had a level 20 and it got deleted by some PD elitist who hacked my account because I died, I would quit the game. I know that's a bit insane to assume that anyone would do that, but I'm just being real. If I lost a level 20 character or it became useless, I would just quit.

If I ever did join a PD guild, I would quit the instant they told me to re-roll. There is no ****ing way I would redo all that I just did. I could actually use a PD guild to avoid noobs, but I would eventually quit when I leveled enough. If those guys think I'm doing the same quest 100 times because they can't progress to the higher level quests, they are dead wrong.

No one really hacks accounts due to their PD playstyle or viewpoints.

Basically you make the choice to play in the PD guild by those rules. If your toon dies you have to remove it from the guild and not play it in PD because it is perminently dead according to the rules of PD. You can still play it in non PD or do what you wish with it at that time.

One semi off topic thing I will say is this. Some of the best players I have met are in PD guilds. When there is that level of risk behind your actions, people dont get nearly as complacent as they do in regular PUGing. They realize that its a team game and all actions taken are to bennefit the team and get through the quests.

Part of playing PD is knowing your toon has an expiration date, period. It WILL die sooner or later. If you get too attached to your toons, PD might not be for you. I play both PD and non PD, and have played both laid back PD and iron man style. I have a server loaded up with higher end better geared toons non PD toons, and I have a few toons in a current PD guild. I like to see and experience the game from all sides and all angles.

Chai
06-16-2010, 02:34 PM
Chai, you clearly demonstrate that you know next-to-nothing about hardcore permadeath play.

The fact that you have to preface your statement with someone else not knowing what they are talking about tells me that this discussion is hitting alot closer to home than I thought it would. In order to have this type of debate, it has to be not emotionally charged. People who are not emotionally charged and can present a clear viewpoint without turning it into a poo slinging contest simply do not make these kinds of statements.

Egoless, no ego, no problems.


Anybody who says metagaming makes elite traps trivial is clueless. And if you think knowing exactly where to go in Taming the Flames on hard, with Core rules, would make that easy, then you are god and we should all quit playing the game to worship you.

Taming the flames is a joke with metagaming. You can run right by all the elementals and go right to where you need to be to complete quest objectives.

I just ran wizard king on elite last night on a level 10 toon, with 2 other level 10s. Completion time, 14 minutes. This is by no means a record time either. We then went back and got the optionals due to them being worth so much XP. I was swinging a +1 ghost touch of PG great ax. The other 2 players were casters. No dedicated healers at all. The one caster was strafe jumping the traps while running sideways and backward to line himself up to grab the ledge in order to avoid the other 2 traps. Metagaming makes this quest a joke. XP farmers plow this 10 times with no deaths in 90 minutes or so.


Lastly, vorpals and banishers are overrated... I beg to differ. When a 4000 hp mob can be taken down with one swing... ah, nevermind. Nothing below level 18 is challenging for you.

As I stated, go into Running with the devils on elite and try your banishers out. Bring a clean up crew with you to repaint the walls after the splat occurs. :p You cant use them in amrath. Vorpals are better only if it takes more than 20 hits to kill a mob. Most mobs that take 20 hits or more to kill are imune to vorpals. Vorpals are good if everyone in the party has them, but not if its just one person relying on a 20 plus crit confirm roll to kill a mob.


Circus of Shadows comes out soon. No metagaming allowed :)

Twinky cakes on normal.

These quests have been already previewed, and determined to be a joke. :p Get out of the kiddie pool.

Had you played on our PD server in NWN, you would eat those words, about not knowing anything regarding hard core PD play :p What we had going on then was alot more hard core than anything that happens in DDO.

I created up to 15 different instances for each zone you could load into, which made it MUCH harder to metagame. Toons didnt have 20 extra HP to start with. If you died, mobs looted your stuff and used it on other people who came by (until the server reset, twice a week). A barbarian at level 10 had ~100 HP due to not having enhancements and gear with huge stats, and also due to having to roll for HP each level. This amount of HP would be a joke in DDO. Smart play was the only option for survival, as there was no huge HP cushion, and no care bearing of the early levels of the game. (yes i used care bearing as a verb, deal with it :D)

A level 1 wizard would have 5 or 6 hp. Not much of a cushion there. They had to use ye ald crossbow + magic missile like PnP wizards do until they gained a few levels. Even then, there was no pepe le pew style soloing with laying down firewalls and jumping up and down until the mobs died. Casters could rest once per 2 real life hours, regardless of how many quests they entered, or how many times they want back to town.

I dont know anything about hard core PD? I have to disagree. I WILL say that it doesnt occur in DDO to the level it occurred in NWN. We didnt have to enforce a huge ruleset either, because I built game mechanics into the server and into the persistent world that handeled most of that. No need to adjust play or metaselect quests due to how an MMO is designed. No need to worry about players dying and not deleting, because I took the respawn screen out. No res in 30 minutes, your body decayed and your stuff is now a pile on the floor for the mobs to pick through. Mobs could follow you through zone points as well. If you bit off a bigger goblin stampede than you could chew and ran from it, they would zone out with you into the outside world and continue your brutal beating on the other side. Safety was in smart play only. Toss down a dimension door to bail from a bad pull and the mobs followed you right through it.

In other news, raids that require 12 average people have been soloed by exceptional players in DDO - on Elite. :0

kafrielveddicus
06-16-2010, 02:49 PM
Metagaming - I have to agree with you about Metagaming Chai, I mean you take a six man group and if one or two people know the quest, the rest can follow with out being verbally lead(albeit maybe at a slightly slower pace), and the risk has been severly decreased by both knowledge and numbers.

Spoilers - taking the above example of a six man group with one or two knowledgeable players; Option 1 - using no spoilers only requires slowing down with scouting(monsters and traps), Option 2 - using spoilers the exact same result only at a much faster pace.

Running quest short-manned is just as challenging as running quests with full groups, its just full groups will have the potential to run higher level quests, simply due to DPS and the ability to recover from a bad situation much easier!!!!

So if you want to impress people with a "our guild run such and such quest with toons such and such level", make sure you indicate how many toons you ran the quest with, and how many people in the group knew the quest, and was everyone that didnt know the quest following the lead of someone that did!!!

Chai
06-16-2010, 04:23 PM
So if you want to impress people with a "our guild run such and such quest with toons such and such level", make sure you indicate how many toons you ran the quest with, and how many people in the group knew the quest, and was everyone that didnt know the quest following the lead of someone that did!!!

I think people are "doing it right" in PD when their neck hairs are standing straight out. If your group is coming out of the quest wondering how the hell they got through that with the resources they had at their disposal, then right on. I dont believe there is a ruleset that can be put into place to enforce this.

Bantering semantics about metagaming aside, some quests are alot easier or alot harder than other quests of the same level. This also depends on the combination of players in the group. Six melee would have a harder time in shadow crypt on elite than one Warforge caster for instance. I could take a group of rogues and monks into taming the flames and throw and dance party. The fire elementals will provide the light show. :D

Regardless if you know the quest or not, there comes a point when you get half way through a quest and are wondering how on earth you are going to complete the rest of this, even with stretching all available resources. This has absolutely nothing to do with the level number Turbine assigned the quest, and more to do with the actual difficulty of the quest itself. This is why no ruleset can ever compensate for taking things on a case by case basis.

To accentuate this, Ged will usually take suggestions for what we are going to run until he hears me go "hoo boy" in voice chat. At that point, he knows that we are all thinking theres a good chance someone might be visiting the vacation resort known as Korthos Island very soon.

I clearly remember the reactions everyone had when one of our monks was drooling over possibly getting some Icy Raiments, and I said "yeah lets do that, right now, theres enough people on." People in group chat were like Borimir in LOTR "One does not simply walk into the subterrane...." :D When the group formed and we were fighting living spells, someone on a low level toon asked if their was anyone to group with on korthos in guild chat. I was like "hold on a sec, we might all be there in a minute." The silence in the air was golden, because I knew everyone had their game faces on. People were nervous as hell. This is how I knew we made the right choice for something to do. Most of the players who only played PD had never seen this zone and had no idea about living spells, teleporting mobs, and the long fall down the chute onto the gold pile to fight the named boss.

Two monks got their Icys that day. Everyone got their adrenaline fix, fo sho...

parvo
06-16-2010, 05:58 PM
No, its true under all case scenarios, save for the scenario where the veterans are making the newbies do all the work and tagging along. How often does this happen before those new players are now metagaming the same quests as well?

These are usually one off cases at best.

Great PD veterans get hosed when they are either killed by the dice - which WILL roll a 1 eventually, or they get too complacent in a quest they know real well. Metagaming =/= invincible. What it does do is make quests much easier than any other one factor in the game makes quests easier.

When experienced players get TOO comfortable and over confident, they might miss a specific danger they would have otherwise avoided. (Hey guys, watch this, BLAM, DOH!!!) (runs over to the dead end to pick up that collectible, trap explodes, DOH!!!) or some such other example.

A quick trip back to Korthos serves as a reminder to not get complacent and overconfident. It does not however, mean that metagaming is or is not taking place. You are again comparing apples and oranges, in another attempt to imply that I or we run quests over level and that somehow has to do with the level of metagaming that takes place, which is again incorrect, on both counts. The fact that you have to continue to use these implications to attempt to prove your point is becoming more entertaining and less annoying each time this is done. Soon, I wont even need to generate a response, as merely pointing this out will be all that is necessary to show anyone who reads this the futile nature of denying that metagaming is always occurring really is.

You probably see a lot more complacency in your groupmates than I do. It's a matter of environment. If you level a character up to 16 from doing slayers and most of your quests with over-level characters, it's going to be harder to switch gears when the going gets tough.

It's not an implication that your PD group consistently runs quests with characters above the level of the quest. It's a fact. I've stated that explicitly. I just checked again, and there were four players on. A level 20 doing nothing. Two level 3's. And a level 11 doing STK. STK at level 11. You want screenshots or something? Why can't you admit that's what makes it easy getting to higher levels? A level 11 could do STK butt naked riding a zebra with a bone through the nose. Your telling me the auction house is why that character is level 11? Gimme a break. No wonder your groups have complacency issues.

parvo
06-16-2010, 06:03 PM
Why would you delete a perfectly fine character, especially at that high of a level? It seems like a waste of time to me. If I had a level 20 and it got deleted by some PD elitist who hacked my account because I died, I would quit the game. I know that's a bit insane to assume that anyone would do that, but I'm just being real. If I lost a level 20 character or it became useless, I would just quit.

If I ever did join a PD guild, I would quit the instant they told me to re-roll. There is no ****ing way I would redo all that I just did. I could actually use a PD guild to avoid noobs, but I would eventually quit when I leveled enough. If those guys think I'm doing the same quest 100 times because they can't progress to the higher level quests, they are dead wrong.

The real waste of time is logging on to some yawner quest your going to farm for the third time in a week. Completely forgettable. Yes, losing a character sucks, but the excitement of permadeath play is worth it.

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 06:15 PM
The real waste of time is logging on to some yawner quest your going to farm for the third time in a week. Completely forgettable. Yes, losing a character sucks, but the excitement of permadeath play is worth it.

Even if I ever do join a PD guild, you can count on me keeping that character if it dies. If they have a problem with me not deleting my perfectly fine character, I couldn't care less.

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 06:17 PM
Metagaming - I have to agree with you about Metagaming Chai, I mean you take a six man group and if one or two people know the quest, the rest can follow with out being verbally lead(albeit maybe at a slightly slower pace), and the risk has been severly decreased by both knowledge and numbers.

Spoilers - taking the above example of a six man group with one or two knowledgeable players; Option 1 - using no spoilers only requires slowing down with scouting(monsters and traps), Option 2 - using spoilers the exact same result only at a much faster pace.

Running quest short-manned is just as challenging as running quests with full groups, its just full groups will have the potential to run higher level quests, simply due to DPS and the ability to recover from a bad situation much easier!!!!

So if you want to impress people with a "our guild run such and such quest with toons such and such level", make sure you indicate how many toons you ran the quest with, and how many people in the group knew the quest, and was everyone that didnt know the quest following the lead of someone that did!!!

When I post an accomplishment on the Forums, it's just that. I don't need to impress anyone. Others can choose to call it chest thumping, but when you play in the permadeath guild with the most challenging ruleset, it's an added sweetness to write about new milestones reached.

As far as information goes, I always post the names of the characters, their classes and levels. So for example when we completed Western Threnal on hard with a party of level 7-10's-- it wasn't the first time we completed it in The Core. But it was the first time we completed with most characters being underlevel.

On the horizon are a few more attempts at guild firsts: The Enemy Within, Invaders, and maybe Dreams of Insanity. You can use metagaming, full party of max level 13's, and every trick you can think of, but with Core rules, it will be as rough as can be. And we like it that way :)

All Chai can think of is Tor (I'm very familiar with it), but unless there is a non-grinding way to get characters bloodied, I don't see how the Core can run it.

And the Wiz King and Chains of Flames are two quests I'm very familiar with. Metagaming or not, Pug and PD are very different Chai. We have to skip normal, have no fear immunity items, can not shrine, and probably one or two people in the party will be unfamiliar with the quest. It's completely beside the point if Pug groups can run it in 14 minutes.

I'll leave it up to others who play permadeath and might read this thread: with metagaming, Chai says Taming the Flames is easy on hard under the following conditions: max level 8, no shrines, no twink, no spoiling. If he's wrong about Taming the Flames and The Wiz King, maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about.

parvo
06-16-2010, 06:20 PM
I think people are "doing it right" in PD when their neck hairs are standing straight out. If your group is coming out of the quest wondering how the hell they got through that with the resources they had at their disposal, then right on. I dont believe there is a ruleset that can be put into place to enforce this.

Bantering semantics about metagaming aside, some quests are alot easier or alot harder than other quests of the same level. This also depends on the combination of players in the group. Six melee would have a harder time in shadow crypt on elite than one Warforge caster for instance. I could take a group of rogues and monks into taming the flames and throw and dance party. The fire elementals will provide the light show. :D

Regardless if you know the quest or not, there comes a point when you get half way through a quest and are wondering how on earth you are going to complete the rest of this, even with stretching all available resources. This has absolutely nothing to do with the level number Turbine assigned the quest, and more to do with the actual difficulty of the quest itself. This is why no ruleset can ever compensate for taking things on a case by case basis.

To accentuate this, Ged will usually take suggestions for what we are going to run until he hears me go "hoo boy" in voice chat. At that point, he knows that we are all thinking theres a good chance someone might be visiting the vacation resort known as Korthos Island very soon.

I clearly remember the reactions everyone had when one of our monks was drooling over possibly getting some Icy Raiments, and I said "yeah lets do that, right now, theres enough people on." People in group chat were like Borimir in LOTR "One does not simply walk into the subterrane...." :D When the group formed and we were fighting living spells, someone on a low level toon asked if their was anyone to group with on korthos in guild chat. I was like "hold on a sec, we might all be there in a minute." The silence in the air was golden, because I knew everyone had their game faces on. People were nervous as hell. This is how I knew we made the right choice for something to do. Most of the players who only played PD had never seen this zone and had no idea about living spells, teleporting mobs, and the long fall down the chute onto the gold pile to fight the named boss.

Two monks got their Icys that day. Everyone got their adrenaline fix, fo sho...

A perfect rule set would be one that requires good play in order to progress a character. Thereby providing an environment with hair raising questing on a regular basis. While not perfect, quest level limits and gear restrictions help do that.

parvo
06-16-2010, 06:21 PM
Even if I ever do join a PD guild, you can count on me keeping that character if it dies. If they have a problem with me not deleting my perfectly fine character, I couldn't care less.

I care less than you do.















































Infinity! :p

Internetisrsbsn
06-16-2010, 06:22 PM
I care less than you do.















































Infinity! :p

lol

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 06:28 PM
Even if I ever do join a PD guild, you can count on me keeping that character if it dies. If they have a problem with me not deleting my perfectly fine character, I couldn't care less.

It's %100 your choice what to do with your character once you leave the guild. I have saved a few toons upon leaving The Core, thinking I would continue leveling them. But I have found I only want one non-pd toon.

Since Nicomo has all the toys, he knows Chai is full of baloney when he says vorpals, banishers, disruptors, and paralyzers are not as good as dps weapons.

His example is the Coalescence Chambe on elite. But in that discussion we were talking about having access to the AH and brokers and those weapons at levels 10-12. And easy leveling if you play by watered down pd rules: Why not run the Coalescence Chamber on normal with banishers?

That's another quest that will be a monumental accomplishment if we ever complete it in The Core. Metagaming or no.

Twinky cakes

Chai
06-16-2010, 07:53 PM
I'll leave it up to others who play permadeath and might read this thread: with metagaming, Chai says Taming the Flames is easy on hard under the following conditions: max level 8, no shrines, no twink, no spoiling. If he's wrong about Taming the Flames and The Wiz King, maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Again, here you go having to make statements about people not knowing what they are talking about, because its the only thing you can drum up at this point. This is the calling card of people who know there are holes in the statements they are making so large a terrasque could crawl through it and not touch any of the sides. People who debate in a non emotionally charged fashion do not make these kinds of statements.

We also dont need to make statements about our accomplishments meaning more than others due to self imposed rules.

Egoless. No ego, no problems. I dont need to insult you every post to make my point.

And perhaps chai plows these quests at level on elite on a caster butt naked riding a zebra. We just took gear right out of the equation. Using Wiz king as an example is a joke regardless of ruleset, because twitch skills and metagaming defeat all traps in that quest.

As I stated before, the sorc who was running ahead of me in that example was jumping some traps while strafing and running backward so he was lined up properly to grab the wall after the staircase to avoid all the traps. Jumping traps while turned completely the other way.

We were using kill zone tactics similar to Doom or Quake where you round up a bunch of mobs, block them in the zone, and nuke em.

Chai
06-16-2010, 08:00 PM
It's %100 your choice what to do with your character once you leave the guild. I have saved a few toons upon leaving The Core, thinking I would continue leveling them. But I have found I only want one non-pd toon.

Since Nicomo has all the toys, he knows Chai is full of baloney when he says vorpals, banishers, disruptors, and paralyzers are not as good as dps weapons.

His example is the Coalescence Chambe on elite. But in that discussion we were talking about having access to the AH and brokers and those weapons at levels 10-12. And easy leveling if you play by watered down pd rules: Why not run the Coalescence Chamber on normal with banishers?

That's another quest that will be a monumental accomplishment if we ever complete it in The Core. Metagaming or no.

Twinky cakes

And here we go again... Again I say, leave the "chai doesnt know what hes talking about" statements out of it. No ego, no problems. I am willing to take the hard assignment and stick to the facts, are you?

If I coutinue to point out these quantity based ego driven statements about not knowing what I am talking about at this rate, I will have carpal tunnel syndrome by next week, so unless you got anything new to add, I am going to group them all together in fives or so just to make it easier. :D

I will do the same as above for each time you try to imply I am running watered down quests, because you are spitting out a large quantity of this stuff as well.

And P.S. - No we are no longer talking about having access to the AH or brokers. We are talking about a naked level 10 WF sorc the player was previously using as a mule plowing the place, and the rest of us running behind him fast enough to keep up. And again for those of us with selective reading skills, I was the only melee, and swinging a +1 ghost touch of pure good great ax.

The "toys" arguement just got blown to smitherines. Whats left? Metagaming. Twitch skills, a jump buff, and knowing where the traps are and what wall I need to grab onto in order to avoid them + extended haste. I was even playing yakety sax over the mic which made people LOL so hard we almost died a few times.

Kill zone tactics, firewalls. For the win. What ruleset is going to stop me or prevent me from doing this? Its still the most efficient way to run that quest.

Chai
06-16-2010, 08:09 PM
A perfect rule set would be one that requires good play in order to progress a character. Thereby providing an environment with hair raising questing on a regular basis. While not perfect, quest level limits and gear restrictions help do that.

These rules can be self imposed just as well as they can be mass imposed. No, I correct myself. Self imposed is BETTER, because I can ditch the mall cop uniform and play the game on my terms. I dont have to enforce the rules on other people.

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 08:17 PM
Play and have fun. But when it comes to hardcore permadeath, you don't know what you're talking about.

The facts, again because you asked for them:

1. elite traps are a major obstacle if you want to complete quests in challenging pd play.

2. even well-known quests like Stormcleave on elite are challenging for a full party in The Core because we limit resources that can be consumed.

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 08:22 PM
Ultimately, talk is cheap. We walk the walk in The Core and all of my character quest completions are transparent and on MyDDO. I wonder if your accomplishments (in pd play) are equally transparent. I'll let others decide.

parvo
06-16-2010, 08:32 PM
Chai, do you think it would be easy to get to level 16+ using your rules except not the auction house? That's really what I'm saying. It is.

Chai
06-16-2010, 08:55 PM
Chai, do you think it would be easy to get to level 16+ using your rules except not the auction house? That's really what I'm saying. It is.

Yes, I do. Keep in mind I played iron man before, and previous to when the game was all carebeared out at low level.

NWN PD was infinitely tougher than anything we see in DDO.

Chai
06-16-2010, 09:13 PM
Play and have fun. But when it comes to hardcore permadeath, you don't know what you're talking about.



There you go again, jeez.

NWN PD was infinitely tougher than anything we see in DDO, shrines or not.

Metagaming the first 12 levels of quests in DDO over and over again doesnt excite me, nor does metaselecting past certain quests due to the ruleset making them impossible, which defeats the purpose. I play Dungeons and Dragons, not Sewers and Kobolds. No egotistical viewpoint about accomplishments being more earned than other peoples due to some ruleset is going to stop me.

This is what this stuff you continually repeat about people not knowing what they are talking about sounds like, and its getting old like George Burns.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Yfn64ncD7YQ/SvRDX3qqWzI/AAAAAAAAADQ/R81zkrrZtfM/s400/broken_record.jpg

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 09:18 PM
NWN PD was infinitely tougher than anything we see in DDO, shrines or not.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Yfn64ncD7YQ/SvRDX3qqWzI/AAAAAAAAADQ/R81zkrrZtfM/s400/broken_record.jpg

Ok, ok. You do know a lot... about NWN. It's totally irrelevant to discussions about pd play in DDO.

parvo
06-16-2010, 09:19 PM
Yes, I do. Keep in mind I played iron man before, and previous to when the game was all carebeared out at low level.

NWN PD was infinitely tougher than anything we see in DDO.

What do you mean by Iron Man. The guild Lenny started for a while?

Chai
06-16-2010, 11:08 PM
Ok, ok. You do know a lot... about NWN. It's totally irrelevant to discussions about pd play in DDO.

Incorrect, the comparison is valid, but I see how you need to say this to make your point relevant. Thus you keep repeating this like a mantra.

At this point its all posturing and zip thudding. Again you are using the stance that I dont know what I am talking about by declaring something irrelevant. Youre still chasing your own tail. You are not even debating with me here, as your debate is internal. I am standing on the outside looking in, facts in hand, pointing them out.

Alot of NWN players on our server came over to DDO in 06 and 07 and we rolled iron man for a while. We soon learned however that this was not anywhere near the challenge that NWN was on our PW server in its prime. This was previous to all the PREs, when weapons with effects were super rare, and the lower level game had not been made easy for the influx of new players. Curses and diseases were perminent, and 0 con meant death.

After doing all the quests 3 or 4 times, alot of those people went back to the PW server and played there for the rest of the time it was up. They couldnt stand metagaming because they knew it took 90% of the challenge out of the quests. Players could build rogues with no spot and still nail traps because they know exactly where to look. Casters know exactly what buffs to cast and when to carry them.

I suppose this must be irrelevent too, because its all you got to refute the factual information, and years of experience we brought to the table.

Chai
06-16-2010, 11:19 PM
What do you mean by Iron Man. The guild Lenny started for a while?


Iron man, as in you find it, you use it. No buying, selling, or trading, period. We did vellah on these toons BTW. Back in the day when the server used to announce dragon raid victories. Good times. We were all PD and all with it. When the cap was 10, good luck finding a raise, period. People could buy ammo and spell components, nothing else.

This lasted about 6-8 months or so until all the people that came over from the old PW server got sick of rolling all the same content over and over again, and knowing where everything was. The mistique soon disappeared for them, and they left. Some are doing NWN2, and some have characters in other MMOS. There may be a few here and there wandering DDO, who knows.

Duncani_Daho
06-16-2010, 11:26 PM
[QUOTE=Chai;3046504]Incorrect, the comparison is valid, but I see how you need to say this to make your point relevant. Thus you keep repeating this like a mantra.

At this point its all posturing and zip thudding. Again you are using the stance that I dont know what I am talking about by declaring something irrelevant. Youre still chasing your own tail. You are not even debating with me here, as your debate is internal. I am standing on the outside looking in, facts in hand, pointing them out.

Alot of NWN players on our server came over to DDO in 06 and 07 and we rolled iron man for a while. We soon learned however that this was not anywhere near the challenge that NWN was on our PW server in its prime. This was previous to all the PREs, when weapons with effects were super rare, and the lower level game had not been made easy for the influx of new players. Curses and diseases were perminent, and 0 con meant death.

After doing all the quests 3 or 4 times, alot of those people went back to the PW server and played there for the rest of the time it was up. They couldnt stand metagaming because they knew it took 90% of the challenge out of the quests. Players could build rogues with no spot and still nail traps because they know exactly where to look. Casters know exactly what buffs to cast and when to carry them.

I suppose this must be irrelevent too, because its all you got to refute the factual information, and years of experience we brought to the table.[/QUOTE

I am writing because someone interested in pd play on DDO might read this thread (if they can stomach the pickering) and see the basic points being made:

Chai-- metagaming makes questing with even the hardest rules easy.

Me-- not true. Not easy for The Core anyway.

And I have listed examples: Stormcleave elite, Taming the Flames on hard, Threnal series on hard or elite, Tempests Spine, Von's. And a whole bunch more.

Your latest point is one of your worst yet: because of metagaming rogues don't need spot. What if the guy never played "regular" DDO? He started playing pd style in Mortal Voyage, moved to The Core, and is just now reaching quest level's 11-12. We have guys like that in The Core. I guess they don't count, huh Chai? Maybe they should pug with overpowered toons and players who spoil so when they run new stuff, or unfamiliar quests, in The Core they can be safe.

They are free to do it. But they probably won't. Just like I won't go to Lammania server to check out the Circus of Shadows and spoil my own first runs in The Core. If they are very long quests, I doubt they will be easy the first time on hard. I even anticipate some deaths (probably my own since I have rogue-- with spot!!!-- and like to take point while dungeon crawling).

Secondly, new updates are being released. Rogues lacking spot won't be of much use to a party running The Blood Tide stuff, The Circus of Shadows stuff, and any other new quest.

So once again the fact is you are wrong about important aspects of pd play.

parvo
06-17-2010, 07:26 AM
No, the way we quest in Mortal Voyage, it is not easy to progress a character to level 16+. It's a tough go. Since our rules revamp in May of 2009, no one has gotten past level 13. I should also mention that we have more players than any other PD guild. It's not for a lack of trying. Than again, that's not really our primary goal. Most of us would rather face consistent challenges. Most of us have not zergPUGed to 20 multiple times. I think the metagaming Chai speaks of means Umbra-like zero-risk stuff. That doesn't happen very much in Mortal Voyage. I'm glad players who like that have another place to go. I think we will eventually get to 16+ in MV, but it will take a while. Maybe by the end of the summer...

TheDjinnFor
06-17-2010, 07:44 AM
Having a huge amount of player skill and cooperation in a tight knit group does not account for a countering a cursed wound every 2 seconds. You cannot heal with these on you and they have to be removed at an alarming rate to win. Skillful play does not account for needing a specific weapon with 2 specific adjectives on it in order to damage a mob. This is but one example of one quest. There are many others.

This, I believe, is why PD players don't use the AH. The higher level content can't be beat with skillful play or a good group; it doesn't challenge anything but your gear and resources, so why bother playing it at all?

I see no point in playing high level content if I was a PDer.

Chai
06-17-2010, 07:46 AM
So once again the fact is you are wrong about important aspects of pd play.

Nope, my views are spot on. This is reflected by the fact that most of the old school PDers fromthe 80s and 90s wont even play PD in this game because its no fun for them.

Just did threnal last night for the cape. Level 9s and 10s, no big toys. The only thing remotely dangerous is the beholder, and he only needs to be fought once. Coyle getting killed is the one thing people are the most concerned about, and even that has been made easier.

Also, your selective reading shines through yet again. Yeah newer players metagame less themselves, but unless you have a full group of noobs, those rogues could watch your every move and throw down searches every time you stop in a hallway. I doubt you will kill your toon in a trap simply to prove a point just because some newbie didnt jack up their spot skill and cant find traps, when you know where they are. So now you are standing in a hallway doing nothing but not advancing, and no one else is rushing down there either, so as a new rogue what would I think about this?

What you are doing here is picking apart my posts for the things you feel you have a point on, but to do so, you need to gloss over other very important things that have already been said.

It is likely that the first time you run the kiddie pool carnival made just for kids and stephen king readers, you will emerge victorious, and congrats for that, but how soon does metagaming enter the picture here? This will get old real quick when talking about one new dungeon chain per update.

Gandalfs_Ghost
06-17-2010, 01:53 PM
When Chai says "metagaming" he means: prior quest knowledge. Or any knowledge your 'toon' couldnt possibly have yet is taking advantage of. But especially the knowledge gleaned from having run a quest before. Nothing to do with getting easy xp or whatnot.
In general I would agree with the sentiment that knowing a quest before you go in helps tremendously. Taming the Flames is a pretty good example (but not the most challenging quest either). With prior quest knowledge you know which way to go or not to go, where the traps are, not to bother with the eles that spawn over the fire pits, to keep the group together when the barriers pop -- especially with the mephit/earth ele fight -- that theres only 1 shrine (for the 99.9% that use shrines anyway), etc. So you can ration your resources appropriately, huddle up at the right times (even when nobody overtly says to) etc.
Ghosts of Perdition is an even better example. Even with uber equipment if you dont know the quest you are most likely going to wipe. But with quest knowledge your chances of surviving go up dramatically, even with toons carrying quest loot only. Quest knowledge even helps decide the makeup of your party.
But who cares really right?
If people want to use or not use the Ah or brokers, or even eschew shrines, awesome! Great! Have fun!
My only real issue with this whole 'debate' is that some of you supporting your more restrictive style of play seem to outright dismiss any and all accomplishments by pd guilds that dont impose such restrictions.
This "I saw your guild with 10th level toons in a 7th level quest therefore your whole guild sucks" attitude.
And I dont think thats fair at all. We challenge ourselves just fine thanks. When we choose to. Not because we are told to.
In guilds that impose restrictions like no AH/brokers, no shrines, etc, it seems to me you are also encouraging people to lean toward a certain type of build. I would imagine in a no shrine guild that pure sorcs or wizzies are few and far between if they exist at all. And if they do exist, how do they operate without metagame knowledge? How would you know if you can afford to use your spell points when you are never getting any back? To haste or not to haste...
How popular are warforged in this style of play? Seems to me choosing that one race alone increases survivability quite significantly. You after all are immune to half the stuff that kills low level pders. *checks my ddo* yup, as I thought...
Its all pretentious bs imho. Sublime, EE and I spose some others Im not familiar with are guilds where you can play any build you want and expect to be able to participate and be viable rather than be painted into a corner by rules. We allow the Ah and brokers, we dont jump all over people for speedrunning ww on their 5th level toons, though we dont encourage that stuff either. But if thats what someone wants to do....

As to this comment:
The higher level content can't be beat with skillful play or a good group; it doesn't challenge anything but your gear and resources, so why bother playing it at all?

Chai wasnt saying that higher level content ONLY challenges gear and resources, hes saying that without the gear and resources skilled play alone will not get you through.
Now whether you agree with that is another story.

And the "rogues with no spot" thing? Yeah, pretty commonplace when I first started playing pd (I should qualify by saying that no spot rogues were considered completely viable in non pd and some went so far as saying spot was a waste of skill points, but i had just returned to ddo and wasnt aware of that at the time) . Personally I couldnt believe it. Rogues that cant spot?!?!? But they were de rigeur for a while. Me I hated it. All my rogues and splash builds can do all the trapsmithing as well as whatever their main class might be. Bard rogues are fun!

And I think all the quests duncan listed are pretty easy to complete without prior knowledge (stormcleave? really?), not many twists and turns in those. Same with the new house D series, not very challenging as is except perhaps for how hard the mobs hit, though I think that has since been toned down.
And yeah I think it sucks that they keep making the game easier.

Short of it: play pd how you want, there's guilds to accommodate all wants and needs, and please keep disparaging comments about other pd guilds to yourself.

Chai
06-17-2010, 03:32 PM
In guilds that impose restrictions like no AH/brokers, no shrines, etc, it seems to me you are also encouraging people to lean toward a certain type of build. I would imagine in a no shrine guild that pure sorcs or wizzies are few and far between if they exist at all. And if they do exist, how do they operate without metagame knowledge? How would you know if you can afford to use your spell points when you are never getting any back? To haste or not to haste...



http://ui06.gamespot.com/1829/multiclassing_2.jpg

Chai
06-17-2010, 03:48 PM
If people want to use or not use the Ah or brokers, or even eschew shrines, awesome! Great! Have fun!
My only real issue with this whole 'debate' is that some of you supporting your more restrictive style of play seem to outright dismiss any and all accomplishments by pd guilds that dont impose such restrictions.
This "I saw your guild with 10th level toons in a 7th level quest therefore your whole guild sucks" attitude.
And I dont think thats fair at all. We challenge ourselves just fine thanks. When we choose to. Not because we are told to.



Thats pretty much it, right there. The entire implication that because there are no rules saying otherwise, that everyone just plows through normal difficulty quests multiple levels above the quest limit, is getting old. Add to the list, the implication that having a mass ruleset makes accomplishments more valid than someone who has their own personal ruleset.

I will take it one step further. I dont dismiss any accomplishment. Today someone posted screenshots of a NON PD player who soloed VOD on a melee toon. I am not a hater, I am a congratulator. Anyone who thinks that soloing VOD which is a 12 person raid requires twinked out gear alone, please post some screenies of your solo completion. :D

parvo
06-17-2010, 05:31 PM
Nope, my views are spot on. This is reflected by the fact that most of the old school PDers fromthe 80s and 90s wont even play PD in this game because its no fun for them.

Just did threnal last night for the cape. Level 9s and 10s, no big toys. The only thing remotely dangerous is the beholder, and he only needs to be fought once. Coyle getting killed is the one thing people are the most concerned about, and even that has been made easier.

Also, your selective reading shines through yet again. Yeah newer players metagame less themselves, but unless you have a full group of noobs, those rogues could watch your every move and throw down searches every time you stop in a hallway. I doubt you will kill your toon in a trap simply to prove a point just because some newbie didnt jack up their spot skill and cant find traps, when you know where they are. So now you are standing in a hallway doing nothing but not advancing, and no one else is rushing down there either, so as a new rogue what would I think about this?

What you are doing here is picking apart my posts for the things you feel you have a point on, but to do so, you need to gloss over other very important things that have already been said.

It is likely that the first time you run the kiddie pool carnival made just for kids and stephen king readers, you will emerge victorious, and congrats for that, but how soon does metagaming enter the picture here? This will get old real quick when talking about one new dungeon chain per update.

What difficulty level was your Threnal cape farming run?

A new rogue in one of my groups would be going first, physically leading the party. That's the way it should be, not hand-holding, metagaming puke.

The new quest will be a hell of a lot more fun when done with virgin PD groups running characters at or below level than those PD groups that scout it on lamania then zerg it with characters over the quest level. Just sayin...

parvo
06-17-2010, 05:52 PM
...This "I saw your guild with 10th level toons in a 7th level quest therefore your whole guild sucks" attitude.
And I dont think thats fair at all. We challenge ourselves just fine thanks. When we choose to. Not because we are told to.
...

GG,
Let me be as clear as I can on this. I personally think it sucks to consistently run easy quests, but that is not to say I or anyone else thinks your guild sucks. There are many times when I point particular players in that direction because I think it is a better fit for them. I know its a fun group of great players or I wouldn't do that. My point is simply that easy leveling is the reason Chai and others are seeing some of the 16+ content in PD, not the auction house. I understand Chai's point of view as well. Great gear is required for a small part of the game at higher levels. While I understand where he's comming from, I don't necessarily agree. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Chai
06-17-2010, 06:00 PM
What difficulty level was your Threnal cape farming run?

Elite


A new rogue in one of my groups would be going first, physically leading the party. That's the way it should be, not hand-holding, metagaming puke.

Then they gain the experience of not metagaming the quest, once. After that it gets more and more familiar, until that rogue is hopping over those traps with a jump buff on and dragging all of the mobs in the dungeon through them, red alert chili style.


The new quest will be a hell of a lot more fun when done with virgin PD groups running characters at or below level than those PD groups that scout it on lamania then zerg it with characters over the quest level. Just sayin...

Yeah, you are just sayin...and just implyin...again...that this is what occurs. This is why I cant take anything you say regarding PD seriously. Your self vision you have about how it should be experienced might be sound, but your implications about how others experience PD because they are not doing so according to your ruleset leave much to be desired.

This type of verbal lowballing of other peoples playstyles due to the ruleset they play under is why PD remains a niche playstyle, and stays less popular than it could be, or could have been...

Chai
06-17-2010, 06:04 PM
My point is simply that easy leveling is the reason Chai and others are seeing some of the 16+ content in PD, not the auction .

Once again, incorrect. Ask anyone who plays with us in our groups what we are up to. At level 16 before I stopped playing for a bit we were running level 19 content. Thats the way it was all the way up. But you still have to continue to imply this isnt the case, as your entire point hinges on it, and gets shot down if the implication does not stand, which it does not.

parvo
06-17-2010, 06:05 PM
Thats pretty much it, right there. The entire implication that because there are no rules saying otherwise, that everyone just plows through normal difficulty quests multiple levels above the quest limit, is getting old. Add to the list, the implication that having a mass ruleset makes accomplishments more valid than someone who has their own personal ruleset.

OK Chai, let me just ask. In your estimation, as a percentage, starting around level 6, how much questing does your guild do with characters at or below the level of quest on hard and elite?

Again Chai, I'm not implying your guild consistently runs below level. It's fact. Let me check again now...Yup. Right now in your guild there are two level 14's and a level 12 in Shadow Lord a level 8 quest. I'm really trying to come to some understanding but you keep bringing this up as if your guild does not easily progress characters in quests below their level.

Chai
06-17-2010, 06:25 PM
OK Chai, let me just ask. In your estimation, as a percentage, starting around level 6, how much questing does your guild do with characters at or below the level of quest on hard and elite?

Again Chai, I'm not implying your guild consistently runs below level. It's fact. Let me check again now...Yup. Right now in your guild there are two level 14's and a level 12 in Shadow Lord a level 8 quest. I'm really trying to come to some understanding but you keep bringing this up as if your guild does not easily progress characters in quests below their level.

I am not worried about my guild. I dont feel the need to toss on the donut stained mall cop uniform like you do. There is no rule enforcement necessary when self policing.

I am worried about myself. I self police. How many times do I need to say this? Without looking back through the thread, I bet it has been more than 10.

In the groups I play in, there have been many a discussion about what quests we would consider challenging for the specific group we are in to do.

We have been over this several times already, and you still need to selectively ignore all information that does not support the point you are trying to make, because again, its the only basis you have for making said point. This has been repeated way too much. Its like you played the same face card for the fifth time in a poker game, but cant seem to understand why everyone in the room now has that sour look on their face.

parvo
06-17-2010, 07:46 PM
I am not worried about my guild. I dont feel the need to toss on the donut stained mall cop uniform like you do. There is no rule enforcement necessary when self policing.

I am worried about myself. I self police. How many times do I need to say this? Without looking back through the thread, I bet it has been more than 10.

In the groups I play in, there have been many a discussion about what quests we would consider challenging for the specific group we are in to do.

We have been over this several times already, and you still need to selectively ignore all information that does not support the point you are trying to make, because again, its the only basis you have for making said point. This has been repeated way too much. Its like you played the same face card for the fifth time in a poker game, but cant seem to understand why everyone in the room now has that sour look on their face.

OK, so what you are saying is you personally do mostly challenging quests but your guild doesn't. I get that. I understand perfectly where your comming from. That's why I left and started a guild for PD players that want consistent challenge with a more PnP feel. After all, I believe, if a PD environment isn't intrinsically challenging, you might as well play "normally", which is what you've chosen to do with most of your DDO time.

Duncani_Daho
06-17-2010, 08:20 PM
When Chai says "metagaming" he means: prior quest knowledge. Or any knowledge your 'toon' couldnt possibly have yet is taking advantage of. But especially the knowledge gleaned from having run a quest before. Nothing to do with getting easy xp or whatnot.
In general I would agree with the sentiment that knowing a quest before you go in helps tremendously. Taming the Flames is a pretty good example (but not the most challenging quest either). With prior quest knowledge you know which way to go or not to go, where the traps are, not to bother with the eles that spawn over the fire pits, to keep the group together when the barriers pop -- especially with the mephit/earth ele fight -- that theres only 1 shrine (for the 99.9% that use shrines anyway), etc. So you can ration your resources appropriately, huddle up at the right times (even when nobody overtly says to) etc.
Ghosts of Perdition is an even better example. Even with uber equipment if you dont know the quest you are most likely going to wipe. But with quest knowledge your chances of surviving go up dramatically, even with toons carrying quest loot only. Quest knowledge even helps decide the makeup of your party.
But who cares really right?
If people want to use or not use the Ah or brokers, or even eschew shrines, awesome! Great! Have fun!
My only real issue with this whole 'debate' is that some of you supporting your more restrictive style of play seem to outright dismiss any and all accomplishments by pd guilds that dont impose such restrictions.
This "I saw your guild with 10th level toons in a 7th level quest therefore your whole guild sucks" attitude.
And I dont think thats fair at all. We challenge ourselves just fine thanks. When we choose to. Not because we are told to.
In guilds that impose restrictions like no AH/brokers, no shrines, etc, it seems to me you are also encouraging people to lean toward a certain type of build. I would imagine in a no shrine guild that pure sorcs or wizzies are few and far between if they exist at all. And if they do exist, how do they operate without metagame knowledge? How would you know if you can afford to use your spell points when you are never getting any back? To haste or not to haste...
How popular are warforged in this style of play? Seems to me choosing that one race alone increases survivability quite significantly. You after all are immune to half the stuff that kills low level pders. *checks my ddo* yup, as I thought...
Its all pretentious bs imho. Sublime, EE and I spose some others Im not familiar with are guilds where you can play any build you want and expect to be able to participate and be viable rather than be painted into a corner by rules. We allow the Ah and brokers, we dont jump all over people for speedrunning ww on their 5th level toons, though we dont encourage that stuff either. But if thats what someone wants to do....

As to this comment:

Chai wasnt saying that higher level content ONLY challenges gear and resources, hes saying that without the gear and resources skilled play alone will not get you through.
Now whether you agree with that is another story.

And the "rogues with no spot" thing? Yeah, pretty commonplace when I first started playing pd (I should qualify by saying that no spot rogues were considered completely viable in non pd and some went so far as saying spot was a waste of skill points, but i had just returned to ddo and wasnt aware of that at the time) . Personally I couldnt believe it. Rogues that cant spot?!?!? But they were de rigeur for a while. Me I hated it. All my rogues and splash builds can do all the trapsmithing as well as whatever their main class might be. Bard rogues are fun!

And I think all the quests duncan listed are pretty easy to complete without prior knowledge (stormcleave? really?), not many twists and turns in those. Same with the new house D series, not very challenging as is except perhaps for how hard the mobs hit, though I think that has since been toned down.
And yeah I think it sucks that they keep making the game easier.

Short of it: play pd how you want, there's guilds to accommodate all wants and needs, and please keep disparaging comments about other pd guilds to yourself.

Response to your points in reverse order:

1. Stormcleave. Yes, on elite, with level appropriate characters (max level 11), and no shrines, it can be really tough. This is partly due to its length. Try it without shrining.

2. Does the ruleset of The Core limit build types? Like what about wizards and sorcerers? Answer: Absolutely not. The guild leader is Mojejido, 28-point elf wizard, level 14. I have prior knowledge of almost every quest, except new ones that come out, and so yes I metagame to the max and it's still really tough completing level 11-12 quests on hard/elite for him.

The Core has just about every kind of build imaginable. Warforged have some strengths due to their immunities, but healing/repairing them can drain the party of resources. The warforged wizzie is a good build, but you are not shrining to get spell points back so you have to make calculated choices on how you spend your mana.

Metagame to the max, it still won't be easy. People who are unfamiliar with this playstyle assume a quest like Redwillow on hard/elite with level 6-8 characters wouldn't be tough. But if you don't use shrines, often you are running out of spell points and resources just when you need them most: confronting the giant army.

I'm not asking anyone directly to join The Core. But take your level 6-7 toons and go into Taming the Flames and Redwillow on hard/elite and refrain from using shrines. If it's easy for you and have no deaths, congrats. But we put a life on the line when we enter such quests. Fail your save vs. landgrab? 10-point energy resists not stopping enough damage? If your pug toon dies, you lose nothing, so you might as well experiment a bit.

Chai
06-17-2010, 08:35 PM
OK, so what you are saying is you personally do mostly challenging quests but your guild doesn't. I get that. I understand perfectly where your comming from. That's why I left and started a guild for PD players that want consistent challenge with a more PnP feel. After all, I believe, if a PD environment isn't intrinsically challenging, you might as well play "normally", which is what you've chosen to do with most of your DDO time.

The "PnP feel" method allows you to shop for items. In PnP, if I have gold and I want to add magical abilities to my weapon, armor, or shield, I may do so. If I want to go to the church and buy cure potions, I may do so. There are entire charts in the DM guide for this. Even if you put the AH off limits for obvious reasons, claiming to gravitate toward the PnP feel means being able to buy resources. Restricting those resources in PnP is called Iron Man. Permadeath in PnP is when all raise ability is removed from the game. You die once, you ar dead, no raises. The two are not necessarily always linked. You can have a huge magical campaign that is permadeath, and you can have iron man campaigns that allow raises.

The environment is what I choose to make of it, and not what the guild's imposed rules choose to make of it. Yeah there are a few basic rules, but it couldnt be permadeath without a few obvious ones in an MMO we do not have complete control over. I gravitate to playing with the people who challenge themselves, and ironically, it is those individuals who have made it to level 20. The higher skill level players, who keep it pushing rather than let complacency set in, are the ones who get to TR, or run the high level stuff.

I bet the officers feel alot more comfortable not having to enforce rules due to not having that many. It makes it really easy for new players to understand, and lends itself to less interpretation, which means less debate over technicalities. This means the leader and officers can log on and play their game on a daily basis, rather than fidgeting with players over article 2 section 12 paragraph 4 which states....you get the picture.

And one last thing on that. I dont /ragequit when things are not the way I like them. I /ragejoin, and then the laughable antics begin. I see others do the same. I will never forget the time two groups got done questing and a few players left each group. We basically consolidated the remaining players into one group and went into a quest. One player made a remark about why we are doing elite difficulty, and before any discussion could possibly occur, both of the women in the group began making chicken noises over their mics. I almost perminently lost my sheist right there laughing. These people both have toons that are high level, and years old.

Duncani_Daho
06-17-2010, 08:48 PM
Elite



Then they gain the experience of not metagaming the quest, once. After that it gets more and more familiar, until that rogue is hopping over those traps with a jump buff on and dragging all of the mobs in the dungeon through them, red alert chili style.



Yeah, you are just sayin...and just implyin...again...that this is what occurs. This is why I cant take anything you say regarding PD seriously. Your self vision you have about how it should be experienced might be sound, but your implications about how others experience PD because they are not doing so according to your ruleset leave much to be desired.

This type of verbal lowballing of other peoples playstyles due to the ruleset they play under is why PD remains a niche playstyle, and stays less popular than it could be, or could have been...

Entire Threnal chain, on elite, with level 9-10 characters who lack uber gear. Ok, I'm impressed. If it actually happened. I never claim completion for a quest that can't be easily confirmed by looking at my characters on myDDO.com. I

How to determine from myDDO if the run was normal/hard/elite? It's not that difficult for The Core: we don't run normal. If my character has run South Threnal twice, the first time was hard and the second elite.

Level 9-10 characters who run the entire Threnal chain on elite would likely need pretty decent gear. Are you claiming the gear was the equivilent of the Sharn rewards, the Nicked weapons? That's what "normal" gear means for level 9-10 characters in The Core.

What does normal gear mean to you? Deathblock, Silver Flame Amulet, Tomes, +5 weapons or better?

Talk is cheap. Your rogue who is running through traps dragging mobs in a red dungeon alert is merely a sentence. When you take the time to level up a level 12 rogue/assassin, like Movenom in The Core, you learn to disregard the Top Gun posing and focus on survival.

parvo
06-17-2010, 10:10 PM
The "PnP feel" method allows you to shop for items. In PnP, if I have gold and I want to add magical abilities to my weapon, armor, or shield, I may do so. If I want to go to the church and buy cure potions, I may do so. There are entire charts in the DM guide for this. Even if you put the AH off limits for obvious reasons, claiming to gravitate toward the PnP feel means being able to buy resources. Restricting those resources in PnP is called Iron Man. Permadeath in PnP is when all raise ability is removed from the game. You die once, you ar dead, no raises. The two are not necessarily always linked. You can have a huge magical campaign that is permadeath, and you can have iron man campaigns that allow raises.

The environment is what I choose to make of it, and not what the guild's imposed rules choose to make of it. Yeah there are a few basic rules, but it couldnt be permadeath without a few obvious ones in an MMO we do not have complete control over. I gravitate to playing with the people who challenge themselves, and ironically, it is those individuals who have made it to level 20. The higher skill level players, who keep it pushing rather than let complacency set in, are the ones who get to TR, or run the high level stuff.

I bet the officers feel alot more comfortable not having to enforce rules due to not having that many. It makes it really easy for new players to understand, and lends itself to less interpretation, which means less debate over technicalities. This means the leader and officers can log on and play their game on a daily basis, rather than fidgeting with players over article 2 section 12 paragraph 4 which states....you get the picture.

And one last thing on that. I dont /ragequit when things are not the way I like them. I /ragejoin, and then the laughable antics begin. I see others do the same. I will never forget the time two groups got done questing and a few players left each group. We basically consolidated the remaining players into one group and went into a quest. One player made a remark about why we are doing elite difficulty, and before any discussion could possibly occur, both of the women in the group began making chicken noises over their mics. I almost perminently lost my sheist right there laughing. These people both have toons that are high level, and years old.

There are very few PD players who join a guild with the intention of breaking the rules. There are also very few who are too stupid to remember things as simple as "don't quest on normal."

Chai
06-17-2010, 10:18 PM
Entire Threnal chain, on elite, with level 9-10 characters who lack uber gear. Ok, I'm impressed. If it actually happened. I never claim completion for a quest that can't be easily confirmed by looking at my characters on myDDO.com. I

How to determine from myDDO if the run was normal/hard/elite? It's not that difficult for The Core: we don't run normal. If my character has run South Threnal twice, the first time was hard and the second elite.

Level 9-10 characters who run the entire Threnal chain on elite would likely need pretty decent gear. Are you claiming the gear was the equivilent of the Sharn rewards, the Nicked weapons? That's what "normal" gear means for level 9-10 characters in The Core.

What does normal gear mean to you? Deathblock, Silver Flame Amulet, Tomes, +5 weapons or better?

Talk is cheap. Your rogue who is running through traps dragging mobs in a red dungeon alert is merely a sentence. When you take the time to level up a level 12 rogue/assassin, like Movenom in The Core, you learn to disregard the Top Gun posing and focus on survival.

Did you even read my post? There was no rogue LOL. Those traps are a joke and can be navigated with ease if you know where they are and have an extended jump buff. 15 mana, all with it.

As I stated before, the WF didnt even have gear on, and was jumping traps backwards so he could be at the right angle to grab the wall in order to get onto the ledge which avoids the rest of the traps. Perect example of metagaming at work, no gear. No need to detrap the dungeon, when a good jump buff and knowing exactly where to jump works just fine.

But here you go talking about gear again. I dont even need to respond to this kind of stuff anymore, I merely need to point it out, that it is you who are posturing, by continuing to imply that I, and everyone who isnt saddled by a heavy ruleset, use gear as a crutch, and that your accomplishmets dwarf mine due to your ruleset. This is the entire reason why PD in DDO is such a small niche playstyle, and not more popular, because people who gravitate to it cant even agree with eachother, and then they have to resort to repeating the same thing over and over again and talk other people down in order to prop themselves up. If you have to talk others down in order to make yourself look better, its not the rest of us who have the issues.

Throw on a fresh pair of skivies, get out of the kiddie pool, man up, and lets kill some dragons. This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Sewers and Kobolds.

Chai
06-17-2010, 10:25 PM
There are very few PD players who join a guild with the intention of breaking the rules. There are also very few who are too stupid to remember things as simple as "don't quest on normal."

In the six or so months I was researching PD rulesets and talking to people, and casually observing from the outside lookingin, you would be surprised at the number of people I saw doing things that would be considered infractions in their own guild.

This is one of the main reasons I gravitated to he guild with less rules, who had a clause in their rulese that you could enforce heavier restrictions on yourself if you wanted to.

parvo
06-17-2010, 11:36 PM
The "PnP feel" method allows you to shop for items. In PnP, if I have gold and I want to add magical abilities to my weapon, armor, or shield, I may do so. If I want to go to the church and buy cure potions, I may do so. There are entire charts in the DM guide for this. Even if you put the AH off limits for obvious reasons, claiming to gravitate toward the PnP feel means being able to buy resources. Restricting those resources in PnP is called Iron Man. Permadeath in PnP is when all raise ability is removed from the game. You die once, you ar dead, no raises. The two are not necessarily always linked. You can have a huge magical campaign that is permadeath, and you can have iron man campaigns that allow raises.

The environment is what I choose to make of it, and not what the guild's imposed rules choose to make of it. Yeah there are a few basic rules, but it couldnt be permadeath without a few obvious ones in an MMO we do not have complete control over. I gravitate to playing with the people who challenge themselves, and ironically, it is those individuals who have made it to level 20. The higher skill level players, who keep it pushing rather than let complacency set in, are the ones who get to TR, or run the high level stuff.

I bet the officers feel alot more comfortable not having to enforce rules due to not having that many. It makes it really easy for new players to understand, and lends itself to less interpretation, which means less debate over technicalities. This means the leader and officers can log on and play their game on a daily basis, rather than fidgeting with players over article 2 section 12 paragraph 4 which states....you get the picture.

And one last thing on that. I dont /ragequit when things are not the way I like them. I /ragejoin, and then the laughable antics begin. I see others do the same. I will never forget the time two groups got done questing and a few players left each group. We basically consolidated the remaining players into one group and went into a quest. One player made a remark about why we are doing elite difficulty, and before any discussion could possibly occur, both of the women in the group began making chicken noises over their mics. I almost perminently lost my sheist right there laughing. These people both have toons that are high level, and years old.

Not many PnP campaigns are as easy and monty haul as "normal" DDO play, but again, for those that like it that way, I'm glad there is a PD place for them.

A lot of the higher skilled players leave your guild for more consistently challenging environment.

Your solution for someone who can't handle challenge is to remove the challenge. OK.

In my guild no one would make the remark in the first place. It's understood what quest level we're going to do. Instead of leaving it up to the weakest link.

Chai
06-18-2010, 07:54 AM
Not many PnP campaigns are as easy and monty haul as "normal" DDO play, but again, for those that like it that way, I'm glad there is a PD place for them.

Actually PnP is designed to be what you call "monte hall." Again, take a look at the charts in the DM guide and see what players can have at each level. I beta tested quite a few old school modules before they came out and have been DMing for longer than 20 years. I think my vision of PnP compared to DDO is pretty spot on. Gear acqusition and skill level are two different conversations. The fact that you continue to try to relate the two shows me you have no idea. TSR used to remove people who harped about gear from their testing program.


A lot of the higher skilled players leave your guild for more consistently challenging environment.

No. Most of them are still there. The ragequitters left because they didnt agree withthe rule set, which is fine. If they are satisfied somewhere else so be it. Notice that there is no hate, verbal poo flinging, or chest thumping, about them leaving, or about their visions of the game. This is reason number 1,385 that I made the right choice.

As I stated before, most of my old crew wont even PD in DDO because they feel it is too easy, regardless of ruleset, equipment restrictions, and shrines. They realize that with the level of metagaming involved, its just not the same.


Your solution for someone who can't handle challenge is to remove the challenge. OK.

Wrong again. I add challenge by doing the real hard quests in this game quite a few levels below their designated level. My choice is to not get caught up in the same 13 levels of quests over and over again, metagaming through them scott free, and then chest thumping about how much harder we have it due to our ruleset. Get out of sharns and lets rock some Mindsunder / Dreaming Dark. You wont do this, but what you WILL do, is tut tut other people do and undermine their accomplishments by making assumptions about how they run quests. You have to continue to assume that something other than skill is why there are level 20s running around in one guild, but you are stuck in the low teens.

Its a much higher risk when talking about possibly having to delete a level 19 or 20 toon. Alot of people have had that same toon for years now to get it that far in PD. Undermining their accomplishments is just plain ignorant. They are standing toe to toe with mobs who toss 500 point disintegrates and deathspells, teleport through walls to attack at will, and some of which have special conditions by which they can be beat. These are the skilled players, who keep it pushing so the challenge doesnt wear off.


In my guild no one would make the remark in the first place. It's understood what quest level we're going to do. Instead of leaving it up to the weakest link.

We understand that quest difficulty is a situational thing, and not just some number Turbine places on the door. We also determine what would challenge the group after the group is formed. Two of the depths quests are level 4 as is Proof is in the Poison, as are two of the Waterworks quests. Office pool: If I stuck a group of newbies in each of those, which ones do they find easier / harder?

Gandalfs_Ghost
06-18-2010, 10:31 AM
OK Chai, let me just ask. In your estimation, as a percentage, starting around level 6, how much questing does your guild do with characters at or below the level of quest on hard and elite?
Again Chai, I'm not implying your guild consistently runs below level. It's fact. Let me check again now...Yup. Right now in your guild there are two level 14's and a level 12 in Shadow Lord a level 8 quest. I'm really trying to come to some understanding but you keep bringing this up as if your guild does not easily progress characters in quests below their level.

Geez, here we go again.
"I'm not implying your guild consistently runs below level. It's fact."
We were not running that for xp. Think they were worth a grand a pop. How many time do you think we would have to run those at that level to get anywhere, lol? You think we were trying to "progress"? LMAO. This is just silly. There was only a few people on and one of the guild (a ftper)wanted to run the middle tier cause he had never seen them and that was his only toon. The rogue wanted to upgrade her trinket so we decided what the hey, and ran them with him til he had to leave. Since he was already overlevel we chose toons at his level cause we didnt care about the xp. THEN we went out to the gianthold and ran cabal on hard. Our rogue has a fascination with the uber trap in there. Another guildie logged and we hit it together, 3 of us. Too bad you didnt check up on us then. Maybe I wouldnt have to read this leet roll yer eyes bs.
We run threnal all the time under level. Cause believe it or not we LIKE getting our butts kicked around. In fact, when questing with Chai I get a certain satisfaction out of saying, okay lets go run namequesthere on hard/elite and hearing him say, "were going to do WHAT now?" Cause it amuses me to hear his end-gamer-booty with way more ddo experience than I questioning the challenge before us. But he never says no. Threnal is a fun series, I just wish they hadnt toned down E3 so much. Its a cakewalk now, used to be tough even for so called leet gamers, especially on hard/elite. But we would get it done. Now its a joke. And yeah, we run it underlevel on hard elite all the time. Is a very popular chain with us.

Duncan I am not in any way dismissing your playstyle (and it would be nice if you guys would extend the same courtesy, but you wont, hence this thread), simply pointing out that with each different set of guild rules some things become more equal than others. And as you are relying on metagaming at least you admit it. And you have arcanes but as I said, seems they are indeed few and far between.
As for pug toons, dont have any lowbies, retired my 16 sorc that died five-manning the Tor to our non PD sublime offshoot guild. Friggin blue dragon. Now theres a quest thats hard even on normal (well the optional dragons for blooding anyway). But thats it.

I think its great that there are guilds like the Core and MV out there. But I simply reject the idea that our more open ruleset in sublime means we dont EVER challenge ourselves and that all we ever do is grind easy xp. Truth is we love biting into something spicy. Most fun Ive had in ages was when the inspired quarter came out. Nobody knew the quests, was a blast. When we ran the vale and reavers refuge we did have people (sometimes) that had already been in some of the quests but they didnt spoil for us so stuff like Rainbow in the dark, Prey in the Hunter, Monastery of the Scorp, Weapon Shipment, fun and scary. Stepping into the subterrane was downright terrifying. The finale to the dreaming dark series was simply awesome. None of us had done that. Thought we were going to wipe but we stumbled onto a strat and pulled it out. Totally seat of the pants and some of the most fun Ive had in ages. Mired in Kobolds is another. What a blast first time thru.
Even Sharn with level 4s on hard then elite is good stuff, lotsa fun.

But whatever right? You dont believe it anyway. You see people running quests under level and conclude we are trying to grind easy xp. Meanwhile the reality is we are messing about waiting for people to log on to go do something more interesting and rewarding that we would actually get us xp worth mentioning.
I know Im wasting my metaphorical breath but Im not trying to convince you of anything really, just want to offer a counterpoint for anyone who happens to be reading this silliness.

parvo
06-18-2010, 04:20 PM
Getting back to the original point...

Prior to May of 2009, Mortal Voyage had "free" quest level selection and no auction house. A short time before that, Mortal Voyage had more high level characters and was progressing through higher level content than Sublime. Mortal Voyage was the first open PD guild to complete many of the mid level quests.
http://forums.ddo.com/search.php?searchid=9934730
What does that mean? It means the auction house, while it makes play easier, is not the key to character progression. In fact, with "free" quest level selection it doesn't matter what gear you have, you can always find an easy quest to complete for XP.


I sincerely care less about achievement than just good ole tough PD questing. If it wasn't a challenge, being the first PD guild to complete some of the quests didn't matter. That's why I re-vamped our rules to make questing and character progression tougher and more like classic paper and pencil. I was apprehensive about the changes, but I shouldn't have been. Potential PD players don't want their PD to look like "normal" play. The last thing they want is more PUGlike idiocracy. Even though the changes caused some outstanding players to leave, we've rebuilt, retrained and are again pushing into quests the guild has never done.

Chai
06-18-2010, 05:08 PM
Getting back to the original point...

Prior to May of 2009, Mortal Voyage had "free" quest level selection and no auction house. A short time before that, Mortal Voyage had more high level characters and was progressing through higher level content than Sublime. Mortal Voyage was the first open PD guild to complete many of the mid level quests.
http://forums.ddo.com/search.php?searchid=9934730
What does that mean? It means the auction house, while it makes play easier, is not the key to character progression. In fact, with "free" quest level selection it doesn't matter what gear you have, you can always find an easy quest to complete for XP.

Even with your rules, you could find an "easy quest to complete for xp if you chose to. If you dont partake in this, it is again due to self policing.

If you limit the questing to character level and above, there are still large variances in quest difficulty, even in quests of the same level. I already outlined an example of this earlier, which I also copy pasted below.

We understand that quest difficulty is a situational thing, and not just some number Turbine places on the door. We also determine what would challenge the group after the group is formed. Two of the depths quests are level 4 as is Proof is in the Poison, as are two of the Waterworks quests. Office pool: If I stuck a group of newbies in each of those, which ones do they find easier / harder?



I sincerely care less about achievement than just good ole tough PD questing. If it wasn't a challenge, being the first PD guild to complete some of the quests didn't matter. That's why I re-vamped our rules to make questing and character progression tougher and more like classic paper and pencil. I was apprehensive about the changes, but I shouldn't have been. Potential PD players don't want their PD to look like "normal" play. The last thing they want is more PUGlike idiocracy. Even though the changes caused some outstanding players to leave, we've rebuilt, retrained and are again pushing into quests the guild has never done.

Not all PUGs are bad. The ones that are, are the result of inviting five other random people, and expecting them to have the same playstyle you have, which is laughable. I have seen quite a few PUG players who challenge themselves to the extreme. My friends list on Sarlona is made up of these people. The common joke among my friends is "oh snap you invited chai!! I hope he doesnt get to the quest entrance first..." They know if I do, we are rolling this quest on elite, and not slowing down. I save these antics for Non PD, because there is no risk of having to delete a toon on death. That doesnt equate to lack of challenge however, it equates to lack of risk of character deletion, and those things are 2 completely different issue that are not tied to eachother. In PD, the entire group decides quest and difficulty.

If you dont care about achievement, when I start talking about PD in the level 16 - 20 range, you would not feel this need to analyze our playstyle and repeatedly call it easy, in an attempt to detract from the accomplishments of those people who are pioneering this style of play in the high levels. This is the original point; the elephant in the middle of the room, if you will.

Duncani_Daho
06-18-2010, 06:12 PM
Geez, here we go again.
"I'm not implying your guild consistently runs below level. It's fact."
We were not running that for xp. Think they were worth a grand a pop. How many time do you think we would have to run those at that level to get anywhere, lol? You think we were trying to "progress"? LMAO. This is just silly. There was only a few people on and one of the guild (a ftper)wanted to run the middle tier cause he had never seen them and that was his only toon. The rogue wanted to upgrade her trinket so we decided what the hey, and ran them with him til he had to leave. Since he was already overlevel we chose toons at his level cause we didnt care about the xp. THEN we went out to the gianthold and ran cabal on hard. Our rogue has a fascination with the uber trap in there. Another guildie logged and we hit it together, 3 of us. Too bad you didnt check up on us then. Maybe I wouldnt have to read this leet roll yer eyes bs.
We run threnal all the time under level. Cause believe it or not we LIKE getting our butts kicked around. In fact, when questing with Chai I get a certain satisfaction out of saying, okay lets go run namequesthere on hard/elite and hearing him say, "were going to do WHAT now?" Cause it amuses me to hear his end-gamer-booty with way more ddo experience than I questioning the challenge before us. But he never says no. Threnal is a fun series, I just wish they hadnt toned down E3 so much. Its a cakewalk now, used to be tough even for so called leet gamers, especially on hard/elite. But we would get it done. Now its a joke. And yeah, we run it underlevel on hard elite all the time. Is a very popular chain with us.

Duncan I am not in any way dismissing your playstyle (and it would be nice if you guys would extend the same courtesy, but you wont, hence this thread), simply pointing out that with each different set of guild rules some things become more equal than others. And as you are relying on metagaming at least you admit it. And you have arcanes but as I said, seems they are indeed few and far between.
As for pug toons, dont have any lowbies, retired my 16 sorc that died five-manning the Tor to our non PD sublime offshoot guild. Friggin blue dragon. Now theres a quest thats hard even on normal (well the optional dragons for blooding anyway). But thats it.

I think its great that there are guilds like the Core and MV out there. But I simply reject the idea that our more open ruleset in sublime means we dont EVER challenge ourselves and that all we ever do is grind easy xp. Truth is we love biting into something spicy. Most fun Ive had in ages was when the inspired quarter came out. Nobody knew the quests, was a blast. When we ran the vale and reavers refuge we did have people (sometimes) that had already been in some of the quests but they didnt spoil for us so stuff like Rainbow in the dark, Prey in the Hunter, Monastery of the Scorp, Weapon Shipment, fun and scary. Stepping into the subterrane was downright terrifying. The finale to the dreaming dark series was simply awesome. None of us had done that. Thought we were going to wipe but we stumbled onto a strat and pulled it out. Totally seat of the pants and some of the most fun Ive had in ages. Mired in Kobolds is another. What a blast first time thru.
Even Sharn with level 4s on hard then elite is good stuff, lotsa fun.

But whatever right? You dont believe it anyway. You see people running quests under level and conclude we are trying to grind easy xp. Meanwhile the reality is we are messing about waiting for people to log on to go do something more interesting and rewarding that we would actually get us xp worth mentioning.
I know Im wasting my metaphorical breath but Im not trying to convince you of anything really, just want to offer a counterpoint for anyone who happens to be reading this silliness.

GG,

I think even a quick glance back up the posts on this thread will show that I never "dismiss" anyone's playstyle. That goes for pug powergames who want to grind Trial By Fire in 3 minute runs over and over and over again for xp. And it also includes what I call "pd-light" guilds. In fact, I claim that any playstyle that others enjoy and find to be fun is valid. Play and have fun. That's my quote.

And I never said the ONLY PLACE players ever challenge themselves is in The Core. I said our ruleset keeps the pressure on, and a high percentage of the time it makes challenging quests unavoidable.

The disagreement came up when we started talking about challenge and rulesets. Chai exaggerates the complexity of hard core pd gaming-- the basics being as follows:

1. No shrines
2. No xp penalty for being overlevel, except in chain/series.
3. No magic purchase, with a few exceptions (medium collectible bags, house D quivers, etc)
4. No powerleveling
5. Run quests at the highest available difficulty
6. No enhancement-based raise dead: must be cast as spell or used via scroll.
7. No House P or J buffs.
8. No transfer of anything to anyone (including alts) unless via chest.

Maybe that's too complex for Chai, but it has been my experience that limiting resources keeps the pressure on, especially with characters losing steam and with those red-named boss fights looming in the distance. The rules INTENDED to be challenging specifically for metagamers, but I knew that newbies would get into too since they address a lot of the frustrations they have with pug groups.

Example: My level 14 elf wizard can choose level 11 quests on elite (yikes!), or level 12 quests on hard (yikes again!), or maybe try the gianthold quests. Since Cabal for One on hard is easier than the Enemy Within on elite, Mojejido will probably take on the gianthold quests first. But "metaselecting" quests won't get him easily to level 15. What would YOU do? It will be a challenge regardless. And I like it that way. If I want to see Tor on hard/elite, the Inspired Quarter stuff on normal, or Prey on the Hunter on normal, I could either run them again with my pug toon or do them in our static group of level 18's. But The Core is especially reserved for long-term accomplishment.

Prior knowledge makes some quests relatively easy, but The Core narrows that number. Metagame to the max, it will be pure challenge getting Mojejido to level 15.

Lastly, GG, I'm not sure if you're in a position to judge how many arcanes we have in the Core. But I would bet its the same proportion that is in YOUR guild, or MV, or any other guild. We have a level 13 wf wizzie who just ran Desert Caravan (Vyrank), and level 12 wf sorcerer who is an extremely valuable asset.

parvo
06-18-2010, 07:07 PM
Even with your rules, you could find an "easy quest to complete for xp if you chose to. If you dont partake in this, it is again due to self policing.

If you limit the questing to character level and above, there are still large variances in quest difficulty, even in quests of the same level. I already outlined an example of this earlier, which I also copy pasted below.

We understand that quest difficulty is a situational thing, and not just some number Turbine places on the door. We also determine what would challenge the group after the group is formed. Two of the depths quests are level 4 as is Proof is in the Poison, as are two of the Waterworks quests. Office pool: If I stuck a group of newbies in each of those, which ones do they find easier / harder?




Not all PUGs are bad. The ones that are, are the result of inviting five other random people, and expecting them to have the same playstyle you have, which is laughable. I have seen quite a few PUG players who challenge themselves to the extreme. My friends list on Sarlona is made up of these people. The common joke among my friends is "oh snap you invited chai!! I hope he doesnt get to the quest entrance first..." They know if I do, we are rolling this quest on elite, and not slowing down. I save these antics for Non PD, because there is no risk of having to delete a toon on death. That doesnt equate to lack of challenge however, it equates to lack of risk of character deletion, and those things are 2 completely different issue that are not tied to eachother. In PD, the entire group decides quest and difficulty.

If you dont care about achievement, when I start talking about PD in the level 16 - 20 range, you would not feel this need to analyze our playstyle and repeatedly call it easy, in an attempt to detract from the accomplishments of those people who are pioneering this style of play in the high levels. This is the original point; the elephant in the middle of the room, if you will.

When faced with the facts, you have no defense. Yet you remain in denial. I just checked again. For the first time in five trys I finally caught your guild doing something challenging. There were 14, 14, 14, 13, 11 in The Wizard King. Assuming it's an elite run, it would be appropriate level for the group. That's how we would run it in Mortal Voyage.

Chai
06-18-2010, 11:25 PM
When faced with the facts, you have no defense. Yet you remain in denial. I just checked again. For the first time in five trys I finally caught your guild doing something challenging. There were 14, 14, 14, 13, 11 in The Wizard King. Assuming it's an elite run, it would be appropriate level for the group. That's how we would run it in Mortal Voyage.

There you go again, so predictable. I could set a watch to it. Its like two to three times a day now. Department of repitition department.

We have already discussed this more than once. No, actually more than 15 times. I dont need a defense, because you have nothing on me. This stuff you keep flinging at me is weak like 7 days, old like george burns, and leaks like a siv. It breaks like water on rock.

You think you are somehow attacking me by proxy by attacking my guild, but in fact we already discussed how this doesnt work. You somehow feel that you have the authority to call me out and make me justify my actions.

You keep attacking an ego I dont have. Egoless, no ego, no problems. You think your fight is with me, but your conflict is completely internal. I am standing here on the outside looking in, eating my popcorn, and being mildly entertained. Its like watching a dog chase its own tail. The sad part is, you might actually catch it, and when you try to put the kybash on me and bite down nice and hard, its going to be a hard surprise when its your own backside that feels the pain. Dont look at me when that happens. I am not the one doing the damage here.

Each time you try justify your own position by attempting to bring others like myself down, you are actually succeeding at strengthening my position. This is like perpetual income here. I dont even have to do any work. you are actually doing me a favor each and every time you try to attack me by proxy. After I have clearly pointed it all out, like clockwork, you step right up and do exactly what I said you would, again.

And this folks, is why PD is a niche playstyle, and has not gained popularity in DDO in quite some time. Pd was more popular in NWN after 14 months of being on the shelf than it is in DDO after 4 years, because we didnt have haters. We had congratulators.

parvo
06-18-2010, 11:48 PM
... Department of repitition department...

At least that bit was ironically funny...


... And this folks, is why PD is a niche playstyle, and has not gained popularity in DDO in quite some time. Pd was more popular in NWN after 14 months of being on the shelf than it is in DDO after 4 years, because we didnt have haters. We had congratulators...

Mortal Voyage is more popular than ever and DDO has the strongest PD community of any successful MMO. But don't let facts get in the way of your viewpoint...

Chai
06-18-2010, 11:55 PM
Mortal Voyage is more popular than ever and DDO has the strongest PD community of any successful MMO. But don't let facts get in the way of your viewpoint...

Incorrect. I have done the research on this, have you? We had servers with 700 accounts in NWN, and there were more than 25 servers in the PD realm in its hayday.

Heck, I did 6 months of research just to place myself in the PD community here.

Permadeath, and Ironman were around in the MUD days, as well as in NWN, and was MUCH stronger there than it is here. We didnt have all this meaningless fingerpointing. No one needed to talk another persons accomplishment down in order to make themselves feel superior.

The facts support my viewpoint, and do not get in the way of it.

Duncani_Daho
06-19-2010, 12:48 AM
There you go again, so predictable. I could set a watch to it. Its like two to three times a day now. Department of repitition department.

We have already discussed this more than once. No, actually more than 15 times. I dont need a defense, because you have nothing on me. This stuff you keep flinging at me is weak like 7 days, old like george burns, and leaks like a siv. It breaks like water on rock.

You think you are somehow attacking me by proxy by attacking my guild, but in fact we already discussed how this doesnt work. You somehow feel that you have the authority to call me out and make me justify my actions.

You keep attacking an ego I dont have. Egoless, no ego, no problems. You think your fight is with me, but your conflict is completely internal. I am standing here on the outside looking in, eating my popcorn, and being mildly entertained. Its like watching a dog chase its own tail. The sad part is, you might actually catch it, and when you try to put the kybash on me and bite down nice and hard, its going to be a hard surprise when its your own backside that feels the pain. Dont look at me when that happens. I am not the one doing the damage here.

Each time you try justify your own position by attempting to bring others like myself down, you are actually succeeding at strengthening my position. This is like perpetual income here. I dont even have to do any work. you are actually doing me a favor each and every time you try to attack me by proxy. After I have clearly pointed it all out, like clockwork, you step right up and do exactly what I said you would, again.

And this folks, is why PD is a niche playstyle, and has not gained popularity in DDO in quite some time. Pd was more popular in NWN after 14 months of being on the shelf than it is in DDO after 4 years, because we didnt have haters. We had congratulators.

Chai sounded pretty flaming mad a while back after he accused others of cherry-picking quests and then was called out to make public his pd characters on Myddo.com

And now he tries to appear above it all. Pretty hard to look detached when it's available for viewing when you go back through the thread.

As far as I am concerned, the argument started when Chai said (and still hasn't retracted) that all level 1-16 questing is easy, regardless of ruleset, because of the easy-button he calls "metagaming."

So right there Chai was attempting a blanket dismissal of all pd guilds because "we all use the easy-button." I disagree and still think there's a lot of challenge out there because the players in my guild all agree on some fundamentals.

You may know NWN, but you don't know what real permadeath play is like in DDO.

parvo
06-19-2010, 07:08 AM
Incorrect. I have done the research on this, have you? We had servers with 700 accounts in NWN, and there were more than 25 servers in the PD realm in its hayday.

Heck, I did 6 months of research just to place myself in the PD community here.

Permadeath, and Ironman were around in the MUD days, as well as in NWN, and was MUCH stronger there than it is here. We didnt have all this meaningless fingerpointing. No one needed to talk another persons accomplishment down in order to make themselves feel superior.

The facts support my viewpoint, and do not get in the way of it.

Look at the words and grab a dictionary if you need to.

Mortal Voyage is more popular than ever. DDO has the strongest (and largest) PD community of any popular MMO.

NeverWinter Nights is not an MMO. Multi User Dungeons are not MMOs.

Blairgowrie
06-19-2010, 07:59 AM
Hey look ... mine is bigger than yours!!!

Get over it folks, it is just a bunch of pixels on a screen, get outside, take a deep breath and look up into the deep azure blue ... see that giant yellow ball up there ... it's the sun!!

Let's put this all into perspective, there is a reason the various PD guilds exist, it's because we agree on very little and then come on the boards, beat our chests and say how great we all are.

News Alert, the vast majority of the DDO participants don't give a tinkers damn about who we are or how we play, and we are not helping grow that play-style by hissing and spitting at one another.

There is a reason I have, for the most part, confined my play to the Thelanis PD guild, I am not a powergamer, I play for fun and want to play with fun people and don't want the fun sucked out of my DDO experience.

Cheers

Blair

Chai
06-19-2010, 08:11 AM
Chai sounded pretty flaming mad a while back after he accused others of cherry-picking quests and then was called out to make public his pd characters on Myddo.com

And now he tries to appear above it all. Pretty hard to look detached when it's available for viewing when you go back through the thread.

What I did do however, is point out how these statements that you are making smack of irony. You claim your accomplishments are somehow worth more than the next person who doesnt have a restricting ruleset, however, in order to have this ruleset, you have to metaselect past quests that you know would not be possible to do under those rules.


As far as I am concerned, the argument started when Chai said (and still hasn't retracted) that all level 1-16 questing is easy, regardless of ruleset, because of the easy-button he calls "metagaming."

And I will not retract it. 1-16 is a heck of alot easier than 17-20 in this game. By making 1-10 very hard you are making even getting to 17 highly unlikely. Even if you do make it there (and I would be the first to congratulate you if you did), it gets proressively more difficult.

This "arguement" actually started when two people made claims that their accomplishments are worth more than others accomplishments due to their ruleset making things harder for them. While saying this, you are attempting to devalue what other people are doing in PD and in non PD.


So right there Chai was attempting a blanket dismissal of all pd guilds because "we all use the easy-button." I disagree and still think there's a lot of challenge out there because the players in my guild all agree on some fundamentals.

I was pointing out the irony in your and others use of the term easy button, because you still dont acknowledge what the real easy button is here, and yet you claim to not use them, and also claim the rest of us do.


You may know NWN, but you don't know what real permadeath play is like in DDO.

The fact that you have to say this, repeatedly, is just enforcing my entire position. Again you have to attempt to devalue my experiences in order to make your opinion sound more plausible. This doesnt work, because my position is not just based in my experiences alone. This is the elephant in the middle of the room, right here, in tangible form.

I know who and where the real PD communities are, period, regardless of what interface, or ruleset, we are using at the time. Its not full of haters who need to devalue others accomplishments in order to prop themselves up.

You arguement is like a politician, who has a 60 second TV spot for their campaign, but instead of talking about what they will do for the viewers, they choose to talk about how the other guy sucks for the entire minute.

Chai
06-19-2010, 08:15 AM
Look at the words and grab a dictionary if you need to.

Mortal Voyage is more popular than ever. DDO has the strongest (and largest) PD community of any popular MMO.

NeverWinter Nights is not an MMO. Multi User Dungeons are not MMOs.

By that definition, DDO is likely the only MMO that even has a PD community. Restricting the definition to those terms, you could make any blanket statement you want.

I dont care to banter semantics and go off on tangents about definitions.

Chai
06-19-2010, 08:22 AM
Hey look ... mine is bigger than yours!!!

Get over it folks, it is just a bunch of pixels on a screen, get outside, take a deep breath and look up into the deep azure blue ... see that giant yellow ball up there ... it's the sun!!

Let's put this all into perspective, there is a reason the various PD guilds exist, it's because we agree on very little and then come on the boards, beat our chests and say how great we all are.

News Alert, the vast majority of the DDO participants don't give a tinkers damn about who we are or how we play, and we are not helping grow that play-style by hissing and spitting at one another.

There is a reason I have, for the most part, confined my play to the Thelanis PD guild, I am not a powergamer, I play for fun and want to play with fun people and don't want the fun sucked out of my DDO experience.

Cheers

Blair

You are right, this is exactly why PD is still a niche community here, when it flourished much more in other places in much less time. I dont recall any point in time where there were absolutists to this extreme who factioned the PD community because they thought their accomplishments were more earned than others. I have been playing since the mid 80s so you think I would have seen this at least once before. What I see here goes far beyond "differences in vision" or "agreeing to disagree." If this kind of stuff doesnt get exposed, it continues to occur, exponentially.

parvo
06-19-2010, 09:38 AM
You are right, this is exactly why PD is still a niche community here, when it flourished much more in other places in much less time. I dont recall any point in time where there were absolutists to this extreme who factioned the PD community because they thought their accomplishments were more earned than others. I have been playing since the mid 80s so you think I would have seen this at least once before. What I see here goes far beyond "differences in vision" or "agreeing to disagree." If this kind of stuff doesnt get exposed, it continues to occur, exponentially.


...

Chai
06-19-2010, 10:12 AM
You and Blair need to get over the huggy kissy love love stuff. Niether of you has done squat to grow PD play in DDO. Blair even argued my starting MV would be bad for PD. You guys lack vision and foresight. You have no idea how to create a compelling brand.

And it continues. Dont even need to respond to it anymore, just need to point it out. The accusations, and the downplaying of others to prop yourself up, are apparent in each of your replies.

And he was correct. Factioning of an already niche group of people doesnt grow the community, it splinters it. Had everyone in PD stuck together in DDO, the voice of the community would have alot more power than it does now and alot more people would be aware of its positive aspects. 50 people in 20 different places have alot less power to shape their environment than 1000 people in the same place. Sure you have your little island, but you merely have a minority voice in an already niche community.

This isnt something I need to stop doing, this is something you need to start doing.

parvo
06-19-2010, 04:44 PM
And it continues. Dont even need to respond to it anymore, just need to point it out. The accusations, and the downplaying of others to prop yourself up, are apparent in each of your replies.

And he was correct. Factioning of an already niche group of people doesnt grow the community, it splinters it. Had everyone in PD stuck together in DDO, the voice of the community would have alot more power than it does now and alot more people would be aware of its positive aspects. 50 people in 20 different places have alot less power to shape their environment than 1000 people in the same place. Sure you have your little island, but you merely have a minority voice in an already niche community.

This isnt something I need to stop doing, this is something you need to start doing.

You're off topic. If you want to discuss the growth and support of PD play, another topic would be best.

parvo
06-19-2010, 04:46 PM
...and I appologize for my earlier comment regarding what Blair and Chai have done to grow PD play. Fact is, I don't know what they've done and there's no easy way to qualify it anyway. At the least, Blair is a good groupmate, fun to play with and welcoming.

Chai
06-19-2010, 06:28 PM
You're off topic. If you want to discuss the growth and support of PD play, another topic would be best.

Semantics, bantered. This was off topic on page 2. :p

Duncani_Daho
06-19-2010, 07:07 PM
This will be my last post in this thread. Hypocrites who call me a hater don't deserve any more of my time. From the first, I was writing not to refute someone, but to inform any others who might be reading about pd play in general and The Core in particular.

Others without pd experience in DDO will have to play the game to decide for themselves whether or not Chai's statements are pure nonsense.

For the record, Chai, I never called you an idiot. (That would be a personal attack). I said you made idiotic statements and I stand by that.

Signing out...

Mo.

kafrielveddicus
06-21-2010, 02:42 PM
You are right, this is exactly why PD is still a niche community here, when it flourished much more in other places in much less time. I dont recall any point in time where there were absolutists to this extreme who factioned the PD community because they thought their accomplishments were more earned than others. I have been playing since the mid 80s so you think I would have seen this at least once before. What I see here goes far beyond "differences in vision" or "agreeing to disagree." If this kind of stuff doesnt get exposed, it continues to occur, exponentially.

You are absolutely right Chai, currently some people in the Permadeath choose to attack and try to divide and conquer other guilds so that they can hope to pick up stragglers(some even join guilds under an alias and try to talk guildies into switching to their guild, LOL), yet every single accomplishment that they have chest thumped about included full groups or a very good Cleric by the name of Carlilee(who did unlimieted amounts of rezzing)!!! It is all cherry picking quests and metagaming on every single level of Permadeath(In all Guilds and Challenges), and that becomes even easier in larger groups.

I would say that a full group of level 11's in Shadow crypt on Elite is far easier that two level 14's and a level 12, but that is simple my perception!!!

parvo
06-21-2010, 09:57 PM
When I started PD we were lucky to have one full group at peak time. You could count the number of active PD players on your fingers and toes. There are a few strong PD advocates who have changed that; players who have brought attention to PD are not staying silent when there is a discussion at hand. They are not afraid of conversation about rules, culture or style. The so-called division is all in your mind. When I started MV there were short-sighted folks who believed it would decrease PD play, however, the opposite is true. Mortal Voyage continues to grow the number of players trying PD. Category growth. How is that possible? The pool of potential players is far greater than just the current PD players. MV gives prospective PD players what they want, an active, well run guild that provides a much greater challenge than "normal" play.

If you have the impression that PD play is shrinking, your perspective is much different than mine. Perhaps you should think back to the reasons you started permadeath play in the first place and look at the environment your in. "Is this the environment I envisioned before trying PD?" Take your mind back to a fresh slate ask yourself how would you create the type of play you originally intended? Does your environment live up to the expectations of new recruits and veterans alike?

Perhaps you've forgotten why you started playing PD in the first place.

parvo
06-21-2010, 11:16 PM
...I would say that a full group of level 11's in Shadow crypt on Elite is far easier that two level 14's and a level 12, but that is simple my perception!!!

I assume you agree a level 14 quest is harder than a level 11? Hence the whole discussion. "Free" quest selection is a much greater factor in speed of character progression and difficulty than auction house. In MV, a group of 14, 14, 11 would be doing a level 14 quest (12 on elite or 13 on hard), not dropping down to a level 9 on elite.

Chai
06-22-2010, 08:57 AM
I assume you agree a level 14 quest is harder than a level 11? Hence the whole discussion. "Free" quest selection is a much greater factor in speed of character progression and difficulty than auction house. In MV, a group of 14, 14, 11 would be doing a level 14 quest (12 on elite or 13 on hard), not dropping down to a level 9 on elite.

No, you needing to ASSUME that free quest selection automaticallly means people are farming the easy stuff is why this discussion took place. This is not true by a long shot, but for you to agree with this would mean that metagaming is the only factor. Metagaming is the largest factor, whether you agree with it or not.

There are even people who play this game alot harder than you do, through self management alone, and they just dont have a ruleset somewhere up on a web site saying they have to.

Absolutism never wins, as ironic as that statement is. :p What absolutism does do, is take its ball and go home, choosing not to play unless it gets its own way.

Chai
06-22-2010, 09:45 AM
You are absolutely right Chai, currently some people in the Permadeath choose to attack and try to divide and conquer other guilds so that they can hope to pick up stragglers(some even join guilds under an alias and try to talk guildies into switching to their guild, LOL), yet every single accomplishment that they have chest thumped about included full groups or a very good Cleric by the name of Carlilee(who did unlimieted amounts of rezzing)!!! It is all cherry picking quests and metagaming on every single level of Permadeath(In all Guilds and Challenges), and that becomes even easier in larger groups.

I would say that a full group of level 11's in Shadow crypt on Elite is far easier that two level 14's and a level 12, but that is simple my perception!!!

I would even take that a step further into the metagaming realm and ask "how many casters are there in these groups?" Part of metagaming is knowing what you need, and acquiring it, before stepping inside. In this case its not gear, but someone who can cast firewall, that gives you the largest advantage.

If you really wanted to give yourself a hard time, one would literally have to use metagaming to make it a disadvantage, rather than an advantage, which equates to hauling a bunch of melee through shadow crypt. 6 melee would have a harder time in there than 1 warforged caster, who doesnt even need to drop an average of one firewall per room to complete the quest.

With one caster in there, everyone else in the group is basically piking. Without a caster, everyone better be on their -A- game, or its back to korthos. All elite means for shadow crypt is the caster has to run fast and turn left (the nascar strat. :p) a little longer per room. All of the smokeys, spiders, wraiths, spectres, and vampires cook easily enough.

Since we are using shadow crypt as an example here, imagine walking into shadow crypt with all overconfidence most metagamers who memorize quests have, knowing there are 2 casters in the group, only to find that now its fire reavers, the map is different, and the boss isnt a vampire. Your casters just memorized a bunch of fire spells to nuke this place out and they are next to useless (buff and haste baby, yeah!!!).

You cannot just pull the metagaming card, leave and re-enter, because doing so would load a completely different map, with completely different mobs, again. Now imagine only being able to rest or swap spells every 2 RL hours from the last time you rested, and swapped. If you play through one map, that same map will not load again for you for 24 RL hours. You can go into the same zone, but a different map would load. It just makes it so people cant farm the same map.

parvo
06-22-2010, 12:15 PM
Chai, if your goal is to zerg up to high levels then mow down the highest level quests in PD, why not create a guild with said mission? You could probably find enough players of like mind to reach critical mass to do so. You could even require all party members to have raise capability therefore ensuring the only possible failure is an unlikely party wipe. That's what Legion did when they ran PD up to the old level cap of 14. Seems you'd have a better chance of reaching your goals that way.

kafrielveddicus
06-22-2010, 01:23 PM
I would even take that a step further into the metagaming realm and ask "how many casters are there in these groups?" Part of metagaming is knowing what you need, and acquiring it, before stepping inside. In this case its not gear, but someone who can cast firewall, that gives you the largest advantage.

If you really wanted to give yourself a hard time, one would literally have to use metagaming to make it a disadvantage, rather than an advantage, which equates to hauling a bunch of melee through shadow crypt. 6 melee would have a harder time in there than 1 warforged caster, who doesnt even need to drop an average of one firewall per room to complete the quest.

With one caster in there, everyone else in the group is basically piking. Without a caster, everyone better be on their -A- game, or its back to korthos. All elite means for shadow crypt is the caster has to run fast and turn left (the nascar strat. :p) a little longer per room. All of the smokeys, spiders, wraiths, spectres, and vampires cook easily enough.

Since we are using shadow crypt as an example here, imagine walking into shadow crypt with all overconfidence most metagamers who memorize quests have, knowing there are 2 casters in the group, only to find that now its fire reavers, the map is different, and the boss isnt a vampire. Your casters just memorized a bunch of fire spells to nuke this place out and they are next to useless (buff and haste baby, yeah!!!).

You cannot just pull the metagaming card, leave and re-enter, because doing so would load a completely different map, with completely different mobs, again. Now imagine only being able to rest or swap spells every 2 RL hours from the last time you rested, and swapped. If you play through one map, that same map will not load again for you for 24 RL hours. You can go into the same zone, but a different map would load. It just makes it so people cant farm the same map.

Signed,

Firewall equals the easy button in Permadeath
Unfortunately there are some quests that pretty much require it (Shadow Crypt Vampire)

Chai
06-22-2010, 01:42 PM
Chai, if your goal is to zerg up to high levels then mow down the highest level quests in PD, why not create a guild with said mission? You could probably find enough players of like mind to reach critical mass to do so. You could even require all party members to have raise capability therefore ensuring the only possible failure is an unlikely party wipe. That's what Legion did when they ran PD up to the old level cap of 14. Seems you'd have a better chance of reaching your goals that way.

That is not my goal in permadeath. This is what you assume my goal is because this is really the only ammo you have to banter with. When you stop this and add something new, this discussion will be alot more mature and respect filled.

What my goal is, is to challenge players all the way up equally, and this is not possible using DDO as an interface, due to metagaming. What is possible, is to play the game as the creators intended it to be played, and you can still challenge yourself doing this, but most of the raw challenge in this game for people who know it to metagame enough, is in the higher end game.

You want a REAL challenge? Invite the first 11 people who try to join to do a TOD raid and see if you can complete it. :D

Many of us from NWN were running iron man from day 1 of this game, but we didnt have a guild, as we used our old vent server. Alot of those people moved on to non PD or just dont play anymore, because they only want to play PD, and metagaming ruins it for them because they were used to how we ran things in NWN, and the MUDs we used as an interface before then. These are people who will accept 8 bit graphics and turn based gaming if necessary, if it provides a lack of opportunity for metagaming.

I like DDO for what it is, which is an MMO based loosely on 3.5 D&D.

Chai
06-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Signed,

Firewall equals the easy button in Permadeath
Unfortunately there are some quests that pretty much require it (Shadow Crypt Vampire)

Yeap, and the swing in power there is large enough where one caster can solo stuff that 6 melee would have a harder time with.

There are however, quests where firewall does nothing but peeve the mobs off just enough to teleport on top of you and invite you to dinner. These are in the 16-20 range. People who rely on firewall for 16 levels and run around with 5 gallon buckets of chicken hearts and an attitude problem are in for a surprise once mobs start becomming immune to elemental damage, or have so many hp that standing in firewalls the entire time doesnt kill them.

The dynamic of the game changes once people arrive at these levels. What was once overpowered is now almost not usable, and melee takes over. Vale and orchard are caster playgrounds. Amrath is a melee playground.

But yeah, for the first 16 levels, **MOST** mobs can be burned down.

kafrielveddicus
06-22-2010, 02:02 PM
Chai, if your goal is to zerg up to high levels then mow down the highest level quests in PD, why not create a guild with said mission? You could probably find enough players of like mind to reach critical mass to do so. You could even require all party members to have raise capability therefore ensuring the only possible failure is an unlikely party wipe. That's what Legion did when they ran PD up to the old level cap of 14. Seems you'd have a better chance of reaching your goals that way.

Even though Legion did it that way they only had a total of two deaths thru their whole journey, that just speaks volume of their talent, and the game was much tougher back then, and they used only the gear they found.

But again they had a balanced group and you can be sure they laid down lots of Firewalls. If you really want to challenge yourself Parvo ban the firewall spell from your gameplay!

Chai
06-22-2010, 02:06 PM
And WF casters, who are pretty much immortal until they run out of spell points.

parvo
06-22-2010, 06:46 PM
Vampires actually go down faster with clerics that know what they are doing than the average arcane. As for Firewall being the easy button, it's true. It is out of balance vs the environment. But the power of Firewall is mitigated somewhat when the character can't buy equipment to pump up damage and criticals. Also, with generally poor HP, AC and saves, the arcane is more vulnerable. Played with a good rule set, the game has pretty good character class balance.

Another way to mitigate firewall is to eliminate rest shrines. The core has done that. However, I feel the right place to start limiting is characters running hard and elite quests at level, then adjust the other rules so that character progression is difficult but not impossible. In eliminating shrines, The Core decided to allow questing with characters over the level of the quest. A little tweaking of that rule set and you could still leave shrines out but limit quest level to no lower than character level. If that is too hard, perhaps add back the ability to use favor rewards or trade consumables.

parvo
06-22-2010, 07:01 PM
Even though Legion did it that way they only had a total of two deaths thru their whole journey, that just speaks volume of their talent, and the game was much tougher back then, and they used only the gear they found.

But again they had a balanced group and you can be sure they laid down lots of Firewalls. If you really want to challenge yourself Parvo ban the firewall spell from your gameplay!


Your memory is failing you.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129216

Chai
06-23-2010, 09:21 AM
Your memory is failing you.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129216

I remember reading that thread the first time around. The same thing was going on there as is going on here. The minute someone else announces a major accomplishment, like getting to high level, Parvo plows into the room with his Glen Beck PD chalkboard and people start getting offended. Then the whole thread gets bogged down in interpretation of what was said, and other rules lawyer absolutisms, with challenges to the credibility of the accomplishment, or justification of it, the entire way.

Why is there even a need to call this kind of stuff into question? What ever happened to unconditional congrats? Are we still this jaded that we have to pick apart the accomplishments of others who go further than we do in hopes that we can find some technicality to make what they did look less real?

A lot of the people in that old thread, if still playing, are still some of the better players in the game. Some of my old crew are in there as well. Can you tell who they are? :p

P.S. I noticed these guys, like us back then, did VON and Reaver...

kafrielveddicus
06-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Your memory is failing you.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=129216

Oh wait you are right they died three times!!!

And I do believe anybody that wants to judge character should certainly read the thread, as it certainly clears up who is jealous about others and who likes to put down others accomplishment while chest thumping about their accomplishments(which truly are accomplishments, but can be done by any group with the right mindset).

I like how they called Parvo, an ambassador of permadeath, i think I once posted "Who made you president of Permadeath Parvo?" in one of my threads somewhere. Parvo you really need to get off your high horse!

parvo
06-23-2010, 06:49 PM
I remember reading that thread the first time around. The same thing was going on there as is going on here. The minute someone else announces a major accomplishment, like getting to high level, Parvo plows into the room with his Glen Beck PD chalkboard and people start getting offended. Then the whole thread gets bogged down in interpretation of what was said, and other rules lawyer absolutisms, with challenges to the credibility of the accomplishment, or justification of it, the entire way.

Why is there even a need to call this kind of stuff into question? What ever happened to unconditional congrats? Are we still this jaded that we have to pick apart the accomplishments of others who go further than we do in hopes that we can find some technicality to make what they did look less real?

A lot of the people in that old thread, if still playing, are still some of the better players in the game. Some of my old crew are in there as well. Can you tell who they are? :p

P.S. I noticed these guys, like us back then, did VON and Reaver...

While I understand you might not like it, there's nothing wrong with pointing out differences in PD style. Asking how many times a PD character has died is a legitmate question.

My first mid level PD character was Coto in Sublime. I don't have any problem saying lot's of the XP gained was riskless play in quests below character level. Why that's hard for some folks to admit, I'll never understand.

parvo
06-23-2010, 07:21 PM
Oh wait you are right they died three times!!!

And I do believe anybody that wants to judge character should certainly read the thread, as it certainly clears up who is jealous about others and who likes to put down others accomplishment while chest thumping about their accomplishments(which truly are accomplishments, but can be done by any group with the right mindset).

I like how they called Parvo, an ambassador of permadeath, i think I once posted "Who made you president of Permadeath Parvo?" in one of my threads somewhere. Parvo you really need to get off your high horse!

Read further in the thread and you'll see Renegade's own estimate is as much as eight deaths. Don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs. Their yours. Hold on to them.

Most prospective PD players are looking for something different than normal play. When PD play starts to look just like "normal" play, it loses it's allure. I don't expect you'll understand this, but pointing out most PD players don't run in groups where every member can raise and pointing out many PD players further restrict raises, gear, quest level selection and the like is good for attracting new players.

My greatest PD accomplishment is helping grow a great PD guild with 24/7 activity and multiple groups at peak time. Creating a challenging environment that encourages new players to become great PD players in no time. Watching our groups succeed amazing adventures they thought impossible. Recruiting thousands to try PD. Hearing some of them tell me "I heard about Mortal Voyage from a guy in one of my WoW groups" or "I saw a blog about permadeath in DDO and decided to give DDO and PD a try". I don't expect much congratulations. To me, the reward is playing the game in an amazing way with outstanding groups and individuals.

Chai
06-24-2010, 08:03 AM
While I understand you might not like it, there's nothing wrong with pointing out differences in PD style. Asking how many times a PD character has died is a legitmate question. .

Naaa, what you did there is prove that you have been flossing this same attitude about detracting from everyone elses accomplishments each and every time they dont do it according to your expectations. Instead of unconditional congrats for someone accomplishing something on their own terms, you hit them up with congrats...but ahh, let me point out that you are not rolling as hard as we are and that you make it easier on yourself by doing this, this, and this.


My first mid level PD character was Coto in Sublime. I don't have any problem saying lot's of the XP gained was riskless play in quests below character level. Why that's hard for some folks to admit, I'll never understand.

Because its not true. You keep trying to make people "admit" to fallacy, because they went and accomplished something you have not. You see their deed, and them standing at the top of the mountain (at the time) and feel that it must be easier play that got them there. In your mind it has to be something other than skill level. The reality of the situation is: Its a game. Someone has better twitch skills than you do, and they were able to rack up more completions sans death than you because of it. Heck, some people even solo raids because of it. This is the elephant in the middle of the room that you cant live with for some reason, so your defense mechanism picks up on accomplishments that are above and beyond what you have done, and begins to pick them apart to portray them in the most negative fashion possible. This is why the PD community is splintered and factioned here in DDO, where it is not, and WAS not, in many other interfaces that were used in the past.

The other major fact here is: You are not the rule setter of what risk is, and what risk isnt. Everyone who does something cool doesnt have to run off to Parvo to make sure their accomplishment counts. What you did in that thread, like youre doing here three years later, is trying to act like you are the King Midas of PD, and have the right to pass absolute judgement on anyones accomplishments, and particularly those milestones you have not made it to yet. When you tried to do this back then, some of my old crew had you like a baby. :p

Duncani_Daho
06-24-2010, 08:19 AM
Vampires actually go down faster with clerics that know what they are doing than the average arcane. As for Firewall being the easy button, it's true. It is out of balance vs the environment. But the power of Firewall is mitigated somewhat when the character can't buy equipment to pump up damage and criticals. Also, with generally poor HP, AC and saves, the arcane is more vulnerable. Played with a good rule set, the game has pretty good character class balance.

Another way to mitigate firewall is to eliminate rest shrines. The core has done that. However, I feel the right place to start limiting is characters running hard and elite quests at level, then adjust the other rules so that character progression is difficult but not impossible. In eliminating shrines, The Core decided to allow questing with characters over the level of the quest. A little tweaking of that rule set and you could still leave shrines out but limit quest level to no lower than character level. If that is too hard, perhaps add back the ability to use favor rewards or trade consumables.

Since The Core was mentioned, I'll chime back in here. Regarding firewall; it is indeed an unbalancing, overpowered spell. Given game dynamics (mobs stand it, there is no friendly fire) the only way I could address the issue when forming The Core was by taking out rest shrines. The same arguments could be made to a lesser degree for blade barrier, but that comes at a much higher level.

When having these discussions I like talking about SPECIFIC quests, without spoiling, so that one gets an idea of the pros and cons of any given ruleset. So, take firewall and Shadow Crypt, since Narc brought it up. Yep, that particular spell makes that particular quest quite easy EVEN IF you never shrine.

Remember, to open the Shadow Crypt you still have to run Shadow Guard, Shadow Knight, Shadow Lord and Shadow King with level appropriate characters (in The Core, this means basing the level of the characters on The Shadow Crypt on hard, a level 10 quest, so level 11 characters can go into that series). I admit, level 11's in those Shadow quests is a bit too relaxed. But we still don't run them often. Why not? Well, without spoiling, you can say that the boss fights can represent a "high-risk" event if you fail a save. So, if we want to get the reward of the xp, silver flame trinket, and so on from The Shadow Crypt, we might have to run through the others with less than a full party because the guild is small. Wait for a rogue and the perfect party and you could wait a long, long time.

What has been our experience in The Core? We ran The Shadow Guard on hard with a party of three. But we don't often go into the others. I lost a level 11 rogue/arcane archer to a trap in The Shadow Knight because I was unfamiliar with it. A few months later I lost a level 11 monk/rogue in the same quest because we were trying to four-man it and didn't have deathward.

If we adopted a stricter "no character above quest level" restriction, we would spend more and more time waiting for the ideal party to form rather than running with characters just one level over the quest. Besides, Mortal Voyage runs with characters above quest level in the many quest-chains in the game: stk, ww, tr, cc, necropolis I and II if it's intended to finish the finale.

How does the no-shrine rule affect a Necropolis II run? Well, do you want deathward up the whole time? It's going to cost you major spell points. Do you want freedom of movement to prevent the arcane from being held as he runs mobs through the firewall? Very expensive from a resources stand point. And remember, thick skull, you can't shrine!!! Want to use your metagaming mightiness to zerg through the Shadow Knight on hard? That's a risky prospect.

Assumptions, assumptions: you'll always have greater heroism (fear immunity) when fighting mummies, jariliths, etc. In The Core, you won't. So metagame all you want, it doesn't magically produce easy solutions to level 10+ quests. That's one big reason why we haven't run The Witchking yet.

But given all of that, you have managed to run through all the Shadow/Tome quests and now can open The Shadow Crypt on hard. You have firewall and it will be fairly easy. What have you gained? Silver Flame Amulets for the party (big score), and around 22k xp. That's it. It didn't magically shoot you up to level 17. You earned an action point, maybe, for the easy Shadow Crypt and probably another ap from the difficult flagging quests. If you want the xp for running Shadow Crypt on elite, you'll have to earn it. Metagame to the max: All that stuff on elite will be no cakewalk. To argue otherwise should involve some sort of proof, because talk is cheap. Demonstrate it, please.

A ways down in the Permadeath thread is a list of quests we ran a while ago in The Core. Desert Caravan on hard (party of 5), Purge The Fallen Shrine on hard (party of 4). So neither was with a full party, we never earned an xp penalty, those who knew the quest metagamed to the max (some were familiar with the quest, some were in it for basically the first time). Result? They were both challenging, good times, with Desert Caravan being an EXTREME challenge. And a near party wipe. Firewall was used in Desert Caravan and you're free to ask Vyrankk if the "easy button" made him feel comfy and cosy in that quest.

Firewall wasn't much use for his warforged sorc Vhrothgeer when we took on a lich. Useful spells were not available to him yet. And on and on.

Get specific. The Church and The Cult: firewall might make that easy but so what? It netted you about 5k xp, some chests, and a chance for some decent rewards.

So, in response to Parvo, if The Core should adopt a strict "no character above quest level, no exceptions" rule (which even MV doesn't have), it would create more challenge in the level 6-9 quests, true, but it might forever dissuade us from trying the very long quests like Von3 and Von4, the Crucible, etc. By the way, we have completed all three of those quests. In The Crucible we were in on normal (before mod9), with level 8-11 characters, and we never shrined. When we made the guild, who ever would have thought that was possible? And so there is probably no way we run Desert Caravan and Made to Order with less than a full, ideal party if we adopt a stricter "no character above quest level" rule. The no xp penalty rule creates just enough wiggle room to find quests people are willing to risk their necks in.

No disrespect intended: Desert Caravan is a level 12 on hard. You guys had level 12 characters in MV, did you run that quest. If you do, and if you don't shrine, and if you survive I will bow in deep congratulations EVEN IF you ran in a full, balanced party. We only had 5. And half were under level for the quest.

People assume that quests like Redwillow and Stormcleave aren't challenging. I doubt they are challenging in MV. Run them in a less-than-full party, without an xp penalty, and without shrining.

Lastly, I am somewhat familiar with the level 16-17 quests in the Vale. My fear for The Core is that we have painted ourselves into a corner with this ruleset. Very long quests + no shrines = extremely difficult. But I look forward to the challenge of getting there AND finding out for ourselves.

Chai
06-24-2010, 10:51 AM
How does the no-shrine rule affect a Necropolis II run? Well, do you want deathward up the whole time? It's going to cost you major spell points. Do you want freedom of movement to prevent the arcane from being held as he runs mobs through the firewall? Very expensive from a resources stand point. And remember, thick skull, you can't shrine!!! Want to use your metagaming mightiness to zerg through the Shadow Knight on hard? That's a risky prospect.

Ever play doom or quake? If you have, you are familiar with what are known is "kill zone tactics." Instead of creeping from room to room, you run 50 mobs back to the kill zone and 1 firewall kills them all. You first have to establish a safe kill zone and a safe running path to do this, but it maximises mana conservation. With 10 regular firewalls, you could wipe out 90-95% of the mobs in those quests. And yes, this requires metagaming, which everyone does anyhow...


Assumptions, assumptions: you'll always have greater heroism (fear immunity) when fighting mummies, jariliths, etc. In The Core, you won't. So metagame all you want, it doesn't magically produce easy solutions to level 10+ quests. That's one big reason why we haven't run The Witchking yet.

So instead of metagaming through quests, we are metaselecting past them through knowing that the resources arent there to complete them. The first part of metagamign is knowing what is needed to get through a quest. If the group leader says "hey, lets run shadow crypt" I am running to the bar on my wizard and memorizing firewall, and making sure that I have my deathward clickies from TR end reward handy on the hotbar.


But given all of that, you have managed to run through all the Shadow/Tome quests and now can open The Shadow Crypt on hard. You have firewall and it will be fairly easy. What have you gained? Silver Flame Amulets for the party (big score), and around 22k xp. That's it. It didn't magically shoot you up to level 17. You earned an action point, maybe, for the easy Shadow Crypt and probably another ap from the difficult flagging quests. If you want the xp for running Shadow Crypt on elite, you'll have to earn it. Metagame to the max: All that stuff on elite will be no cakewalk. To argue otherwise should involve some sort of proof, because talk is cheap. Demonstrate it, please.

If you are willing to banter this, then please hold yourself to your own standard as well. I want to see fraps on these completions. This is what absolutists do. They try to hold everyone else to a standard, but feel that they dont have to prove they are adhering to the same standard. I think through conversing with me, that you have actually learned the level of frustration that people experience when you question their accomplishments in order to detract from them, because all I have done is toss you into the deep end of your own pool, and asked you to swim.


A ways down in the Permadeath thread is a list of quests we ran a while ago in The Core. Desert Caravan on hard (party of 5), Purge The Fallen Shrine on hard (party of 4). So neither was with a full party, we never earned an xp penalty, those who knew the quest metagamed to the max (some were familiar with the quest, some were in it for basically the first time). Result? They were both challenging, good times, with Desert Caravan being an EXTREME challenge. And a near party wipe. Firewall was used in Desert Caravan and you're free to ask Vyrankk if the "easy button" made him feel comfy and cosy in that quest.

And most of us where there to unconditionally congratulate you on your accomplishments and offer up other challenges, instead of trying to pick you apart and detract from those accomplishments.


Firewall wasn't much use for his warforged sorc Vhrothgeer when we took on a lich. Useful spells were not available to him yet. And on and on.

Scorching ray is level 2. Fireball is level3. And a WF sorc is immortal until they run out of SP. I wish they would have never allowed WF to play self healing arcane. Its too powerful. I see how PD players, myself included, gravitate to this combo. I stopped playing my WF wiz in PD because its too easy. Unless I get one shotted, my chance of death is slim to none. The balance for having the most powerful offensive spells in the game is being wimpy physically and not being able to innately heal ones self. Both of these are untrue of WF, with their easy to obtain high CON score, and self healing ability.


Get specific. The Church and The Cult: firewall might make that easy but so what? It netted you about 5k xp, some chests, and a chance for some decent rewards.

It netted you far less risk and much, much easier completion due to being able to use kill zone tactics and minimise mana usage. Most other spells are one off spells meaning you cast it once, it delivers a blast of damage once, and its done. If not for firewall, you need silver weapons to kill a vampire. People who dont buy from brokers or AH arent exactly pimped out in silver, and if they do have a weapon of this quality, its usually not their weapon of choice.


So, in response to Parvo, if The Core should adopt a strict "no character above quest level, no exceptions" rule (which even MV doesn't have), it would create more challenge in the level 6-9 quests, true, but it might forever dissuade us from trying the very long quests like Von3 and Von4, the Crucible, etc. By the way, we have completed all three of those quests. In The Crucible we were in on normal (before mod9), with level 8-11 characters, and we never shrined. When we made the guild, who ever would have thought that was possible? And so there is probably no way we run Desert Caravan and Made to Order with less than a full, ideal party if we adopt a stricter "no character above quest level" rule. The no xp penalty rule creates just enough wiggle room to find quests people are willing to risk their necks in.

No disrespect intended: Desert Caravan is a level 12 on hard. You guys had level 12 characters in MV, did you run that quest. If you do, and if you don't shrine, and if you survive I will bow in deep congratulations EVEN IF you ran in a full, balanced party. We only had 5. And half were under level for the quest.

People assume that quests like Redwillow and Stormcleave aren't challenging. I doubt they are challenging in MV. Run them in a less-than-full party, without an xp penalty, and without shrining.

You guys are bantering semantics here. Most people dont care about these semantics or the bantering there of until they get brought up in order to detract from others acomplishments. At that point, my old crew and I dont rage quit, we ragejoin. Now we are up in here making sure that you are holding yourself to your own standard as well. One of the reason why I hate being a rules lawyer is not because I am bad at it, but becuase I am too good at it. The donut stained mall cop uniform has been donned, and those mall rat skateboarding hot topic green haired punk kids are gonna pay, muahahahahaha!!! :p


Lastly, I am somewhat familiar with the level 16-17 quests in the Vale. My fear for The Core is that we have painted ourselves into a corner with this ruleset. Very long quests + no shrines = extremely difficult. But I look forward to the challenge of getting there AND finding out for ourselves.

This is correct, and I have stated this quite a few times. Making the low level game hard makes the high end game impossible at some point, depending on how you make the low end game hard. If you expect the same rules the level 4s follow, to be followed by leve 16s, they wont make it to the top of the hill. Even with the highest skilled play, and all possible metagaming, the chances of being killed by the dice alone at higher level are exponentially higher than it is at lower level. Add in not being able to shrine, and like you said before, this means your protection buffs arent up 100% of the time. You are now one PK, FoD, or Vorp away from death at any point in time, starting at level 8 or 9 or so, and increasing exponentially as you level. You are adding huge amounts of risk, but not adding any ways to mitigate it. Even in PnP PD, there are ways to mitigate this increasing risk.

The question becomes, what expectation do we have of higher level PD toons? It seems that yourself and others are willing to admit at times that you are making it extremely hard to reach higher level, but the minute someone else reaches that level, you guys who play under tougher blanket rulesets stick to the hard line and tell the rest of us we have it too easy. When people take 18 months to 2 years to reach level 20, I'd say they hit the nail right on the head as far as how difficult to make it in PD. If we all had maxed out our accounts with maxed out toons in the same amount of time like PUGers do, I would agree with you and say it is too easy, and time to add some spices into the mix.

Duncani_Daho
06-24-2010, 12:13 PM
Ever play doom or quake? If you have, you are familiar with what are known is "kill zone tactics." Instead of creeping from room to room, you run 50 mobs back to the kill zone and 1 firewall kills them all. You first have to establish a safe kill zone and a safe running path to do this, but it maximises mana conservation. With 10 regular firewalls, you could wipe out 90-95% of the mobs in those quests. And yes, this requires metagaming, which everyone does anyhow...



So instead of metagaming through quests, we are metaselecting past them through knowing that the resources arent there to complete them. The first part of metagamign is knowing what is needed to get through a quest. If the group leader says "hey, lets run shadow crypt" I am running to the bar on my wizard and memorizing firewall, and making sure that I have my deathward clickies from TR end reward handy on the hotbar.



If you are willing to banter this, then please hold yourself to your own standard as well. I want to see fraps on these completions. This is what absolutists do. They try to hold everyone else to a standard, but feel that they dont have to prove they are adhering to the same standard. I think through conversing with me, that you have actually learned the level of frustration that people experience when you question their accomplishments in order to detract from them, because all I have done is toss you into the deep end of your own pool, and asked you to swim.



And most of us where there to unconditionally congratulate you on your accomplishments and offer up other challenges, instead of trying to pick you apart and detract from those accomplishments.



Scorching ray is level 2. Fireball is level3. And a WF sorc is immortal until they run out of SP. I wish they would have never allowed WF to play self healing arcane. Its too powerful. I see how PD players, myself included, gravitate to this combo. I stopped playing my WF wiz in PD because its too easy. Unless I get one shotted, my chance of death is slim to none. The balance for having the most powerful offensive spells in the game is being wimpy physically and not being able to innately heal ones self. Both of these are untrue of WF, with their easy to obtain high CON score, and self healing ability.



It netted you far less risk and much, much easier completion due to being able to use kill zone tactics and minimise mana usage. Most other spells are one off spells meaning you cast it once, it delivers a blast of damage once, and its done. If not for firewall, you need silver weapons to kill a vampire. People who dont buy from brokers or AH arent exactly pimped out in silver, and if they do have a weapon of this quality, its usually not their weapon of choice.



You guys are bantering semantics here. Most people dont care about these semantics or the bantering there of until they get brought up in order to detract from others acomplishments. At that point, my old crew and I dont rage quit, we ragejoin. Now we are up in here making sure that you are holding yourself to your own standard as well. One of the reason why I hate being a rules lawyer is not because I am bad at it, but becuase I am too good at it. The donut stained mall cop uniform has been donned, and those mall rat skateboarding hot topic green haired punk kids are gonna pay, muahahahahaha!!! :p



This is correct, and I have stated this quite a few times. Making the low level game hard makes the high end game impossible at some point, depending on how you make the low end game hard. If you expect the same rules the level 4s follow, to be followed by leve 16s, they wont make it to the top of the hill. Even with the highest skilled play, and all possible metagaming, the chances of being killed by the dice alone at higher level are exponentially higher than it is at lower level. Add in not being able to shrine, and like you said before, this means your protection buffs arent up 100% of the time. You are now one PK, FoD, or Vorp away from death at any point in time, starting at level 8 or 9 or so, and increasing exponentially as you level. You are adding huge amounts of risk, but not adding any ways to mitigate it. Even in PnP PD, there are ways to mitigate this increasing risk.

The question becomes, what expectation do we have of higher level PD toons? It seems that yourself and others are willing to admit at times that you are making it extremely hard to reach higher level, but the minute someone else reaches that level, you guys who play under tougher blanket rulesets stick to the hard line and tell the rest of us we have it too easy. When people take 18 months to 2 years to reach level 20, I'd say they hit the nail right on the head as far as how difficult to make it in PD. If we all had maxed out our accounts with maxed out toons in the same amount of time like PUGers do, I would agree with you and say it is too easy, and time to add some spices into the mix.

You don't play a wf sorc in The Core. Your spell points are not unlimited. How effective will your wf sorc be with zero spell points? Right. Well then you better not offensively cast too much and self-buff too often. But you better not hold back too much either because your party will need your power. Like in The Shadow Knight. Like in a dozen other quests where people assume firewall is the easy answer.

Kill zone tactics? Tell me something I don't know.

Metagame to the max, select your spells, reset your enhancements, use all the kill zone tactics and every legitimate tactic you can employ: level-appropriate stuff without shrining is still challenging. That's why you are whining about fraps, right? Our ruleset makes it a little unbelievable that we are completing these quests? Or is it your line from before that "metagaming makes everything under level 16 easy"?

That's why I post in the PD and Accomplishments forum, Chai. I make it public, and we don't allow solo'ing, so that if I was exaggerating or lying about some completed quest, you think all of the people in my guild would pat me on the back and say I'm a swell guy?

Who is the fat cop with a donut and a badge now?

Chai
06-24-2010, 12:36 PM
You don't play a wf sorc in The Core. Your spell points are not unlimited. How effective will your wf sorc be with zero spell points? Right. Well then you better not offensively cast too much and self-buff too often. But you better not hold back too much either because your party will need your power. Like in The Shadow Knight. Like in a dozen other quests where people assume firewall is the easy answer.

Still overpowered. The balance of a wizard or sorc having the most powerful spells in the game is that they dont have the option to heal themselves, and they are physically wimpy. Warforge are neither. An arcane having the option to heal themselves is overpowered. You see what happens now when its you who are called on this sort of thing. You have the same attitude I had when you tried to pick me apart. Fairs fair, right?


Kill zone tactics? Tell me something I don't know.

And you are complaining about conserving mana? In this game? I see a Quake interface and Quake style dungeons with a Dungeons and Dragons character building mechanic.


Metagame to the max, select your spells, reset your enhancements, use all the kill zone tactics and every legitimate tactic you can employ: level-appropriate stuff without shrining is still challenging. That's why you are whining about fraps, right? Our ruleset makes it a little unbelievable that we are completing these quests? Or is it your line from before that "metagaming makes everything under level 16 easy"?

I am talking fraps because you are talking about backing up claims with proof. You either play this bantering game by your own standard or you dont. Show us the money. You want to hold people to a standard you cant even hold yourself to. This is what absolutists do. They call everyone else out on their tactics, but the minute theirs are questioned, hoo boy, how dare you....


That's why I post in the PD and Accomplishments forum, Chai. I make it public, and we don't allow solo'ing, so that if I was exaggerating or lying about some completed quest, you think all of the people in my guild would pat me on the back and say I'm a swell guy?

I dont give absolutists who are bent on fracturing the PD community the tools to judge me with. If I hand you this information, you are just going to pick it apart to determine that my accomplishments are not worthy of your praise. You have your little island where your rules stand, enjoy it while it lasts. Your judgement reaches to everyone who wears your guild tag, and no others. The minute you pick other people apart and deem their accomplishments unworthy, dont get mad when its your own card that gets pulled. The fact that you do respond in kind tells me there are indeed issues here, but its not with myself, or others, who offer unconditional congrats to people who accomplish things on their own terms.


Who is the fat cop with a donut and a badge now?

Gimme a bottle of anything, and a glaze donut, TO GO!!!! :p

Duncani_Daho
06-24-2010, 12:54 PM
Still overpowered. The balance of a wizard or sorc having the most powerful spells in the game is that they dont have the option to heal themselves, and they are physically wimpy. Warforge are neither. An arcane having the option to heal themselves is overpowered. You see what happens now when its you who are called on this sort of thing. You have the same attitude I had when you tried to pick me apart. Fairs fair, right?



And you are complaining about conserving mana? In this game? I see a Quake interface and Quake style dungeons with a Dungeons and Dragons character building mechanic.



I am talking fraps because you are talking about backing up claims with proof. You either play this bantering game by your own standard or you dont. Show us the money. You want to hold people to a standard you cant even hold yourself to. This is what absolutists do. They call everyone else out on their tactics, but the minute theirs are questioned, hoo boy, how dare you....



I dont give absolutists who are bent on fracturing the PD community the tools to judge me with. If I hand you this information, you are just going to pick it apart to determine that my accomplishments are not worthy of your praise. You have your little island where your rules stand, enjoy it while it lasts. Your judgement reaches to everyone who wears your guild tag, and no others. The minute you pick other people apart and deem their accomplishments unworthy, dont get mad when its your own card that gets pulled. The fact that you do respond in kind tells me there are indeed issues here, but its not with myself, or others, who offer unconditional congrats to people who accomplish things on their own terms.



Gimme a bottle of anything, and a glaze donut, TO GO!!!! :p

MyDDO.com for any of my characters in The Core. Donuts: eat em and weep. I run in The Core, I don't solo, and all my characters are public on MyDDO.com. That's as good as it gets Chai.

For the record, a look at my previous posts will show that I have congratulated frequently. I even congratuled MV when they FAILED a quest: Von3. Their effort was truly praise worthy. As far as "deeming others accomplishments as unworthy", show me the post. Quote me because I would apologize to anyone I specifically singled out as unworthy. Otherwise I think you're just making it up.

Heck, even a glance back in this thread will prove that I think all kinds of play are valid, and if it's fun for you, great enjoy the game. Does The Core have the most challenging ruleset of any pd guild in DDO? In my opinion yes, but that doesn't mean I think your pd toons or Narc's toons are pansies. I never said that, and I refulse to call your character pansies no matter how much you bait me :)

All heat and no light-- nobody is talking about specific quests and challenge in pd guild that actually run stuff. Talk is cheap. Accomplishments are rare.

Have fun and play the game anyway you chose!!!

parvo
06-24-2010, 06:04 PM
Naaa, what you did there is prove that you have been flossing this same attitude about detracting from everyone elses accomplishments each and every time they dont do it according to your expectations. Instead of unconditional congrats for someone accomplishing something on their own terms, you hit them up with congrats...but ahh, let me point out that you are not rolling as hard as we are and that you make it easier on yourself by doing this, this, and this.

Whah f'in whah...Who gives a **** what I think anyway...


Because its not true. You keep trying to make people "admit" to fallacy, because they went and accomplished something you have not. You see their deed, and them standing at the top of the mountain (at the time) and feel that it must be easier play that got them there. In your mind it has to be something other than skill level. The reality of the situation is: Its a game. Someone has better twitch skills than you do, and they were able to rack up more completions sans death than you because of it. Heck, some people even solo raids because of it. This is the elephant in the middle of the room that you cant live with for some reason, so your defense mechanism picks up on accomplishments that are above and beyond what you have done, and begins to pick them apart to portray them in the most negative fashion possible. This is why the PD community is splintered and factioned here in DDO, where it is not, and WAS not, in many other interfaces that were used in the past.

Lots of players are better at DDO than I am. I have no problem accepting that truth.


The other major fact here is: You are not the rule setter of what risk is, and what risk isnt. Everyone who does something cool doesnt have to run off to Parvo to make sure their accomplishment counts. What you did in that thread, like youre doing here three years later, is trying to act like you are the King Midas of PD, and have the right to pass absolute judgement on anyones accomplishments, and particularly those milestones you have not made it to yet. When you tried to do this back then, some of my old crew had you like a baby. :p

There are lots of things I'll never accomplish in PD. One of them is putting together a group where everyone has the ability to raise dead, zerg up to the cap off the most well known quests, dismiss deaths along the way as an inconvienince and then beat my chest about how awesome I am at PD while calling other players less skilled.

At a time when Mortal Voyage was blowing through "accomplishments" faster than any other open PD guild, I decided to re-tool the rule set to fulfill the original mission of the guild. I care a lot less about beating you to some "new level of play" than maintaining the integrity and spirit that makes permadeath play special.

parvo
06-24-2010, 06:27 PM
...I dont give absolutists who are bent on fracturing the PD community the tools to judge me with. If I hand you this information, you are just going to pick it apart to determine that my accomplishments are not worthy of your praise. You have your little island where your rules stand, enjoy it while it lasts. Your judgement reaches to everyone who wears your guild tag, and no others. The minute you pick other people apart and deem their accomplishments unworthy, dont get mad when its your own card that gets pulled. The fact that you do respond in kind tells me there are indeed issues here, but its not with myself, or others, who offer unconditional congrats to people who accomplish things on their own terms.

Absolutists bent on fracturing the PD community...pretty harsh. Is that intended toward me, a player who created and helps foster the largest most active permadeath guild in the game or Mo who has played in most open PD guilds in the game and built a rule set that challenges players of his skill and knowledge? We've both grown the PD community, given it greater choice and expanded the possibilities for heroic play.

parvo
06-24-2010, 06:55 PM
...So, in response to Parvo, if The Core should adopt a strict "no character above quest level, no exceptions" rule (which even MV doesn't have), it would create more challenge in the level 6-9 quests, true, but it might forever dissuade us from trying the very long quests like Von3 and Von4, the Crucible, etc. By the way, we have completed all three of those quests. In The Crucible we were in on normal (before mod9), with level 8-11 characters, and we never shrined. When we made the guild, who ever would have thought that was possible? And so there is probably no way we run Desert Caravan and Made to Order with less than a full, ideal party if we adopt a stricter "no character above quest level" rule. The no xp penalty rule creates just enough wiggle room to find quests people are willing to risk their necks in...

Yes, when Mortal Voyage runs a series quest we base quest level off the finale. Notice how easy that is for me to type. I don't cringe and cry about being called out. It's a fact and if the truth hurt me, there would be something wrong.

The series quests with largest level disparities from start to finish are the older ones. It was an obvious DDO design flaw that Turb has largely corrected on the more recent series releases. However, the old quests are the most familiar, WW, STK, TR, Greymoon, Delera's and are the ones most often run with characters below level of the finale anyway. We could break it down a bit by assigning each series a level and adhering to it or run every series across the board with characters one or two levels below the level of the finale but those ideas just complicate the rule set. Not every quest Mortal Voyage runs is brutal. Some adventures are still easier than others, but the bar is set at a point where character progression requires a fairly consistent mix of good play, skill, teamwork and a little luck. We've faced a lot of mummies without fear immunity, we've run Shadow Crypt without Death Ward and such. Although we have a lot of members, we still quest in less than perfect or full groups.

One of the coolest things about Mortal Voyage is we don't have lots of players who have completed all the content (multiple times even) and when they have, they don't spoil. Just last weekend, we tried that tower one where you climb up levels (out in Delera's). There were four of us. Not a bad party but we got to the end and were completely stymied. Going in, we had no idea we wouldn't be able to finish it. If anyone in the party did know, they stayed quiet about it. We gave it a shot and got stopped cold in our tracks. Lost a nice level 10 Wizard in the attempt. It was the players highest level character ever (PD or non). No one told him what spells to load up. Yes, metagaming happens in PD, the guy who lost his level ten won't soon forget, but unless you are very familiar with a quest or talk about it in group before hand, it's not always a big factor for completion or safety.

Weidman
06-24-2010, 07:07 PM
You know the intent of this post was not to open old wounds and make some new bad blood it was just to say that our players felt that the AH made the quests to easy, hell by lvl 10 after selling on the AH the whole way we got paraliz / vorps and any other amount of awsome weapons/armor but this was just our opinion and while are guild is not huge in any way atm we got 9 vry active members its still our opinion so please fell free to stop this madness when ever you want



Ramstrez

toughguyjoe
06-24-2010, 07:13 PM
Its ok. Permadeath Players can pat themselves on the back all they want. Publicly even.

Narc can spout out about having no deaths....and being the slowest, most boring player I've ever played with.

Haven't played with Parvo, but from his forum personality he seems to enjoy those back pats he gets from himself.

Um...the other guys...I played with the dude from "The Core" once when he was on Argo. Dunno if it was the leader or what, but it was someone on Vacation from their normal server. He seemed all right. Didn't complain at all in our shroud run and was totally excited when He and my WF wizard solo'd garamol in the subterrane.

The thing is, if you want to be a damn good permadeath player, go do it. Don't sit on the forums and talk about it.

Valhalla Permadeath Guild on Ghallanda was the one I was in, and it was a damn fun time. Thats what Permadeath was about, not beating a quest and then holding it up to the "teacher" for a check or a check +

Chai
06-24-2010, 08:10 PM
Absolutists bent on fracturing the PD community...pretty harsh. Is that intended toward me, a player who created and helps foster the largest most active permadeath guild in the game or Mo who has played in most open PD guilds in the game and built a rule set that challenges players of his skill and knowledge? We've both grown the PD community, given it greater choice and expanded the possibilities for heroic play.

And you will continue to pat yourself on the back for it, and tut tut others who dont accomplish things by your standards. The elephant in the room you seem to love to gloss over isnt about what you do, or the obviously favorable attitude you have for your own accomplishments. Its the attitude you have against other players who accomplish things you have not. The minute you see someone moving into territory you havent conquered yet, you have to bring the credibility of their accomplishments into question. The thread you linked is a perfect example of how you have been doing this the entire time. Everyone else is giving their unconditional congrats, while yourself and another detractor felt the need to attempt to belittle their accomplishments...

That is, until some of my old crew pulled your card on it, and had you like a baby.

Here we are three years later, and you are trying to pick me apart? Laughable.

parvo
06-24-2010, 10:43 PM
And you will continue to pat yourself on the back for it, and tut tut others who dont accomplish things by your standards. The elephant in the room you seem to love to gloss over isnt about what you do, or the obviously favorable attitude you have for your own accomplishments. Its the attitude you have against other players who accomplish things you have not. The minute you see someone moving into territory you havent conquered yet, you have to bring the credibility of their accomplishments into question. The thread you linked is a perfect example of how you have been doing this the entire time. Everyone else is giving their unconditional congrats, while yourself and another detractor felt the need to attempt to belittle their accomplishments...

That is, until some of my old crew pulled your card on it, and had you like a baby.

Here we are three years later, and you are trying to pick me apart? Laughable.

I'm not going to candy coat my questions on account of you or anyone else on these forums. I'm pretty sure most of the folks in the discussion are over the age of ten. If you or "your old crew" is younger than that, let me know and I'll serve up the ole "OHHH! That's amazing!" I give my son when he remembers to flush the comode. I'm sorry if a question like "How many times has your PD character died?" bothers you. I'm sorry if a comment like "Consistently running riskless quests below character level makes it much easier to level up in PD play." bothers you.

As for the thread being wheels-off, it would appear we have plenty to chat about. Don't like it, don't read it. For what it's worth, I've tried to redirect back toward the issue of auction house a few times. I actually think Chai, Mo and myself and maybe a few lurkers are getting something out of this. I've taken Chai's point about a few high level quest requiring twink gear to heart. He might be right and what the hell do I know about high level play anyway? Chai agrees with most of what I'm saying too, but just can't admit it publicly yet. Takes time. Mo and I had the same type of discussion regarding quest level selection. In the end, he agreed with me but decided he didn't like questing with me very much. Oh well. Maybe there's something here for a few of us to learn. :( Now, look what you've done...I'm man-crying all over my keyboard with snot bubbles and uncontrollable gaseous expulsion of various sorts :(... If we want to rag each other for eternity, just put the three of us on ignore and let us have our chat.

Duncani_Daho
06-24-2010, 10:53 PM
I'm not going to candy coat my questions on account of you or anyone else on these forums. I'm pretty sure most of the folks in the discussion are over the age of ten. If you or "your old crew" is younger than that, let me know and I'll serve up the ole "OHHH! That's amazing!" I give my son when he remembers to flush the comode. I'm sorry if a question like "How many times has your PD character died?" bothers you. I'm sorry if a comment like "Consistently running riskless quests below character level makes it much easier to level up in PD play." bothers you.

As for the thread being wheels-off, it would appear we have plenty to chat about. Don't like it, don't read it. For what it's worth, I've tried to redirect back toward the issue of auction house a few times. I actually think Chai, Mo and myself and maybe a few lurkers are getting something out of this. I've taken Chai's point about a few high level quest requiring twink gear to heart. He might be right and what the hell do I know about high level play anyway? Chai agrees with most of what I'm saying too, but just can't admit it publicly yet. Takes time. Mo and I had the same type of discussion regarding quest level selection. In the end, he agreed with me but decided he didn't like questing with me very much. Oh well. Maybe there's something here for a few of us to learn. :( Now, look what you've done...I'm man-crying all over my keyboard with snot bubbles and uncontrollable gaseous expulsion of various sorts :(... If we want to rag each other for eternity, just put the three of us on ignore and let us have our chat.

Well, my short temper gets the best of me from time to time. It's a regrettable character flaw. But usually heads cool and cooler heads always prevail. When my characters in The Core reached level 11 and 12 I started to realize Parvo was right about having some "quest-level" restriction. A level 12 character can always go back down to lower level quests and earn huge xp for doing stuff on elite: the pit elite, gwylan's stand, etc. But it definitely waters down the accomplishment of leveling up that character. And I didn't want my characters watered down and constantly looking down the quest log to see what I could run.

Regarding other standards of challenging PD play, they all come from Mortal Voyage where I played for over a year.

Chai
06-25-2010, 07:27 AM
I'm not going to candy coat my questions on account of you or anyone else on these forums. I'm pretty sure most of the folks in the discussion are over the age of ten. If you or "your old crew" is younger than that, let me know and I'll serve up the ole "OHHH! That's amazing!" I give my son when he remembers to flush the comode. I'm sorry if a question like "How many times has your PD character died?" bothers you. I'm sorry if a comment like "Consistently running riskless quests below character level makes it much easier to level up in PD play." bothers you.

What you just said here, shows us that every time you feel the need to question the actions of players who accomplish something you havent done yet, its not them who have this issues.


As for the thread being wheels-off, it would appear we have plenty to chat about. Don't like it, don't read it. For what it's worth, I've tried to redirect back toward the issue of auction house a few times. I actually think Chai, Mo and myself and maybe a few lurkers are getting something out of this. I've taken Chai's point about a few high level quest requiring twink gear to heart. He might be right and what the hell do I know about high level play anyway? Chai agrees with most of what I'm saying too, but just can't admit it publicly yet. Takes time. Mo and I had the same type of discussion regarding quest level selection. In the end, he agreed with me but decided he didn't like questing with me very much. Oh well. Maybe there's something here for a few of us to learn. :( Now, look what you've done...I'm man-crying all over my keyboard with snot bubbles and uncontrollable gaseous expulsion of various sorts :(... If we want to rag each other for eternity, just put the three of us on ignore and let us have our chat.

I agree with playing hard and setting high expectations for yourself. What I dont agree with is the attitude that if someone doesnt accomplish something by your standards, they didnt earn it.

As I said before I dont rage quit, I rage join :p Ignoring this kind of stuff while trying to play PD in such a small community and enjoy it is as good as enforcing it at this point.

kafrielveddicus
06-25-2010, 08:39 AM
Its ok. Permadeath Players can pat themselves on the back all they want. Publicly even.

Narc can spout out about having no deaths....and being the slowest, most boring player I've ever played with.

Haven't played with Parvo, but from his forum personality he seems to enjoy those back pats he gets from himself.

Um...the other guys...I played with the dude from "The Core" once when he was on Argo. Dunno if it was the leader or what, but it was someone on Vacation from their normal server. He seemed all right. Didn't complain at all in our shroud run and was totally excited when He and my WF wizard solo'd garamol in the subterrane.

The thing is, if you want to be a damn good permadeath player, go do it. Don't sit on the forums and talk about it.

Valhalla Permadeath Guild on Ghallanda was the one I was in, and it was a damn fun time. Thats what Permadeath was about, not beating a quest and then holding it up to the "teacher" for a check or a check +

Unfortunately Valhalla Permadeath Guild has become inactive, it is a shame as there were some good peeps in that guild.

Chai
06-25-2010, 10:22 AM
Well, my short temper gets the best of me from time to time. It's a regrettable character flaw. But usually heads cool and cooler heads always prevail. When my characters in The Core reached level 11 and 12 I started to realize Parvo was right about having some "quest-level" restriction. A level 12 character can always go back down to lower level quests and earn huge xp for doing stuff on elite: the pit elite, gwylan's stand, etc. But it definitely waters down the accomplishment of leveling up that character. And I didn't want my characters watered down and constantly looking down the quest log to see what I could run.

Regarding other standards of challenging PD play, they all come from Mortal Voyage where I played for over a year.

I have no issue with this.

What I do have issue with, is the implication that because others dont have rules cemented in stone, the fact that they got to level 20 automatically means they partook in farming lower level less challenging quests for xp. Even in Sublime with their "relaxed" ruleset, the level 20 toons are over a year old. Some of them are over 2 years old, and were created long before I actively began playing with them.

When someone in non PD is able to get to the highest level in the game in 1 week, and PD players take an average of 18 months to get there (1/3 of the games total lifespan!!) I think their ruleset pretty much hits the nail right on the head. Of course this is my opinion, and if you want to challenge yourself harder than they do, you do so under the realization that the time it will take you to get there will likely be alot longer, or you may never get there, depending on the circumstances. I dont think this waters their accomplishment down, however. They turned a one week xp grind that is common in non PD into an 18 month journey, and this was definately not done by farming easy quests at lower level repeatedly.

kafrielveddicus
06-25-2010, 12:58 PM
You know the intent of this post was not to open old wounds and make some new bad blood it was just to say that our players felt that the AH made the quests to easy, hell by lvl 10 after selling on the AH the whole way we got paraliz / vorps and any other amount of awsome weapons/armor but this was just our opinion and while are guild is not huge in any way atm we got 9 vry active members its still our opinion so please fell free to stop this madness when ever you want



Ramstrez

To get back to the original post in this thread,

you are absolutely correct, no matter what ruleset you would use in permadeath adding Auction House will definately make it much more similar to non-permadeath, and using the brokers for purchasing is also a similar situation.

what is funny is our guild doesnt allow magic consumable purchasing, and many new guildies have questioned whether or not they would be able to heal themselves, funny thing is most of our guildies cant even give away their stacks of healing potions as the entire guild has stacks they have collected. Many of us just sell our healing potions.

parvo
06-25-2010, 03:08 PM
I have no issue with this.

What I do have issue with, is the implication that because others dont have rules cemented in stone, the fact that they got to level 20 automatically means they partook in farming lower level less challenging quests for xp. Even in Sublime with their "relaxed" ruleset, the level 20 toons are over a year old. Some of them are over 2 years old, and were created long before I actively began playing with them.

When someone in non PD is able to get to the highest level in the game in 1 week, and PD players take an average of 18 months to get there (1/3 of the games total lifespan!!) I think their ruleset pretty much hits the nail right on the head. Of course this is my opinion, and if you want to challenge yourself harder than they do, you do so under the realization that the time it will take you to get there will likely be alot longer, or you may never get there, depending on the circumstances. I dont think this waters their accomplishment down, however. They turned a one week xp grind that is common in non PD into an 18 month journey, and this was definately not done by farming easy quests at lower level repeatedly.

In an amazing feat of espionage, the Mortal Voyage spies have aquired Chai's overly sensitive translatorial device (OSTD). Hidden deep in the sewers of stormreach, Chai keeps an army of kobolds busy feeding input into the device. Chai ignores original messages and only reads the output after the OSTD does it's work. I've hired the finest mages in all Stormreach to help me operate the device. Let's try it out and see what happens...

Input:
Hi babe. You look nice tonight.

Output:
Hi puke. Most of the time, you look like ****. What the hell happened tonight? You fall into a vat of unugly?

Amazing! Perhaps the OSTD is the culprit behind Chai's misunderstanding. Let's try another...

Input:
The auction house makes DDO easier.

Output:
If you use the auction house you are a putz with no skills or ability whatsoever.

Another amazing translation! I think I've uncovered the great mystery behind Chai's reactions! Let's try a simple fact and see what happens...

Input:
The players in your guild often run quest levels below character level.

Output:
Nothing you or your guildies have ever done in is an accomplishment whatsoever.

Wow! This truely is an amazing device! No matter what you say, the user of the device hears only the negative, never hears facts and can ignore reality altogether. Wait! The mages I hired have just informed me the device can be run in reverse! It's all up to the user what they hear. Very interesting. The user can choose to completely ignore negative comments if they want to! Hmmm...I better return the device before Chai and his army of kobold slaves discovers it missing...too bad, I'd love to put it in reverse and use it for my next performance review at work...

Chai
06-25-2010, 03:18 PM
Wow! This truely is an amazing device! No matter what you say, the user of the device hears only the negative, never hears facts and can ignore reality altogether. Wait! The mages I hired have just informed me the device can be run in reverse! It's all up to the user what they hear. Very interesting. The user can choose to completely ignore negative comments if they want to! Hmmm...I better return the device before Chai and his army of kobold slaves discovers it missing...too bad, I'd love to put it in reverse and use it for my next performance review at work...

No interpretation necessary. Anyone who reads through this thread will clearly see what I am pointing out.

I do find it laughable that you have to try to put it on me and act like I am inerpreting these things. In order to even banter this nonsense you have to portray the other individual with an opinion that doesnt agree with yours as a pessimist. All I have to do to show this as being invalid is point to the times where I give an unconditional congrats to others accomplishments, and the same instances, where you attempt to detract from the same.

Even if we rule me out of the equation, there are several other threads where you have done this to others, where they had the exact same reaction to your antics - including the very thread you linked in order to prove some semantic fact in one of your unrelated tangents, and some of my old crew clowned you for making the attempt.

So the real question becomes: Is EVERYONE who reacts to Parvo in the same manner after he attempts to erase credibility from their accomplishments using the same translation device? I didnt think they went into mass production yet...

Are you even able to banter anything at all without having to call the other guy into question?

P.S. Those arent kobolds, they are pygmy drow, and they work for pie, so theyre not slaves. :p

parvo
06-25-2010, 05:47 PM
No interpretation necessary. Anyone who reads through this thread will clearly see what I am pointing out.

I do find it laughable that you have to try to put it on me and act like I am inerpreting these things. In order to even banter this nonsense you have to portray the other individual with an opinion that doesnt agree with yours as a pessimist. All I have to do to show this as being invalid is point to the times where I give an unconditional congrats to others accomplishments, and the same instances, where you attempt to detract from the same.

Even if we rule me out of the equation, there are several other threads where you have done this to others, where they had the exact same reaction to your antics - including the very thread you linked in order to prove some semantic fact in one of your unrelated tangents, and some of my old crew clowned you for making the attempt.

So the real question becomes: Is EVERYONE who reacts to Parvo in the same manner after he attempts to erase credibility from their accomplishments using the same translation device? I didnt think they went into mass production yet...

Are you even able to banter anything at all without having to call the other guy into question?

P.S. Those arent kobolds, they are pygmy drow, and they work for pie, so theyre not slaves. :p


OK Chai. Point em out. Link all those threads where I "attempt to erase credibility" of others accomplishments. Must be hundreds of em.

Chai
06-26-2010, 12:28 PM
OK Chai. Point em out. Link all those threads where I "attempt to erase credibility" of others accomplishments. Must be hundreds of em.

The calling card of the absolutist. If you dont have a portable stenographer who can shovel out 2 and 3 year old threads out of the ether, or saves screenshots from chat sessions from back in the day to the point of OCD, Then all claims must be false, right? The irony here, is the very thread YOU linked from back then to prove some unrelated tangent backfired on you, and clearly shows this has been going on for a while now.

Here is another little ditty where someone posted an accomplishment and you basically plowed into their thread with much less than an unconditional congrats. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128799&highlight=parvo

Is the absence of evidence the evidence of absence? If so, how then do you get to make these claims that people arent challenging themselves enough, when they post their accomplishments? The absence of a ruleset doesnt imply this according to what you just said, because there is no evidence to back it up for individuals you try to banter this to. You dont get to have your pie and eat it too on this one. So, which is it?

You see, you are even willing to contradict yourself when its convenient to try to banter these semantics. All I am doing here is pointing it out. There is no way to backpedal now. Any statement you could possibly make is just going to contradict one you made in the past.

parvo
06-29-2010, 11:36 PM
The calling card of the absolutist. If you dont have a portable stenographer who can shovel out 2 and 3 year old threads out of the ether, or saves screenshots from chat sessions from back in the day to the point of OCD, Then all claims must be false, right? The irony here, is the very thread YOU linked from back then to prove some unrelated tangent backfired on you, and clearly shows this has been going on for a while now.

Here is another little ditty where someone posted an accomplishment and you basically plowed into their thread with much less than an unconditional congrats. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=128799&highlight=parvo

Is the absence of evidence the evidence of absence? If so, how then do you get to make these claims that people arent challenging themselves enough, when they post their accomplishments? The absence of a ruleset doesnt imply this according to what you just said, because there is no evidence to back it up for individuals you try to banter this to. You dont get to have your pie and eat it too on this one. So, which is it?

You see, you are even willing to contradict yourself when its convenient to try to banter these semantics. All I am doing here is pointing it out. There is no way to backpedal now. Any statement you could possibly make is just going to contradict one you made in the past.

You found two threads on the same topic. I have the same opinion of both. Big deal. When provided an opportunity to easily support your points with fact, you come up with excuses not too. Here are some threads I've congratulated:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=228056
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223519
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223319
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=221313
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180707
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169029
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165475
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158457
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156912
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=143301
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130118
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130465

Don't facts get in the way of your beliefs Chai. Hold on to them dearly. Maybe if you add about four exclamation points to each one it will feel even more true for you.

kafrielveddicus
06-30-2010, 12:55 AM
you Found Two Threads On The Same Topic. I Have The Same Opinion Of Both. Big Deal. When Provided An Opportunity To Easily Support Your Points With Fact, You Come Up With Excuses Not Too. Here Are Some Threads I've Congratulated:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=228056
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223519
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223319
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=221313
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=180707
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=169029
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=165475
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158457
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=156912
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=143301
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130118
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=130465

Don't Facts Get In The Way Of Your Beliefs Chai. Hold On To Them Dearly. Maybe If You Add About Four Exclamation Points To Each One It Will Feel Even More True For You.

Roflmao!!!!

Chai
06-30-2010, 08:58 AM
You found two threads on the same topic. I have the same opinion of both. Big deal. When provided an opportunity to easily support your points with fact, you come up with excuses not too. Here are some threads I've congratulated:


Don't facts get in the way of your beliefs Chai. Hold on to them dearly. Maybe if you add about four exclamation points to each one it will feel even more true for you.

Good, you have shown us you are not completely off your rocker, yet...

Your quantity based arguement doesnt stand, due to the following:

In none of these, did anyone do anything above and beyond what you could, or go where you have not, which is exactly where your threshold is. When someone announces that they did something that you have not, or announce their accomplishment as a PD first, your congrats comes with a but....

...and that but, which makes your congrats completely conditional, is usually you saying that they didnt do it under the "real" perma conditions. Somehow, you have to assume they made it easy on themselves, and this to you, could be the only possible explination as to why someone was able to accomplish something that you have not.

You continue to contradict yourself, and as such, you are only supporting what I stated earlier about the pattern based methods you use to judge people by. You are holding onto this presupposed and well rehearsed retort, which you will stand up so proudly and spew forth each time someone does something well beyond your threshold. Its ironic that you are telling me not to let facts get in the way of my beliefs, which you also continue to repeat in a well rehearsed fashion, like a broken record, when someone questions you on this.

So I will play your little fact game. How about the fact that people have done things that you have not, and are playng just as hard as you do while doing so!!!! <---(4 exclimation points added for Parvo level emphasis). Have you ever given any of these people unconditional congrats? - Or do you always plow into their thread with your permadeath chalkboard Glen Beck style all huffing and puffing about how there is no way this happened under "real" perma conditions. Everyone in the group must have been a raiser, or someone must have stayed back for group security reasons, or they must have farmed easy quests for xp, or gained 2 levels in every slayer zone, or heck, you even pulled a Chai a few times and accused some people of metagaming. :p

Even if you leave my toon out of the discussion, there are quite a few higher level PD players, in amrath and IQ right now, and most of their toons were made 18 months to 2 years ago, or are even older than that. Did every single one of them take easy street to get there? According to this pattern based threshold arguement, they must have, because Parvo hasnt done this yet.

I beg to differ however. A 20 level grind for a non PD player is 1 to 2 weeks depending on how long they play each day, and if they TR or not. I have seen people roll up a non PD toon on friday, and flag it for the shroud the following monday. If it takes a PDer 18 months or longer to get to the same levels on one toon, that tells me they are not walking down easy street and farming xp. Some of the level 20 PD players took 1/3 of the entire life of the game to get to capped xp!!!! (oh man 4 exclamation points, yeah!!!!) Easy street? I think not. But have no fears, after 2 years of hard work, Parvo is right there to kick down the door of your accomplishment and tell you it didnt happen the real PD way.

kafrielveddicus
06-30-2010, 10:55 AM
Good, you have shown us you are not completely off your rocker, yet...

Your quantity based arguement doesnt stand, due to the following:

In none of these, did anyone do anything above and beyond what you could, or go where you have not, which is exactly where your threshold is. When someone announces that they did something that you have not, or announce their accomplishment as a PD first, your congrats comes with a but....

...and that but, which makes your congrats completely conditional, is usually you saying that they didnt do it under the "real" perma conditions. Somehow, you have to assume they made it easy on themselves, and this to you, could be the only possible explination as to why someone was able to accomplish something that you have not.

You continue to contradict yourself, and as such, you are only supporting what I stated earlier about the pattern based methods you use to judge people by. You are holding onto this presupposed and well rehearsed retort, which you will stand up so proudly and spew forth each time someone does something well beyond your threshold. Its ironic that you are telling me not to let facts get in the way of my beliefs, which you also continue to repeat in a well rehearsed fashion, like a broken record, when someone questions you on this.

So I will play your little fact game. How about the fact that people have done things that you have not, and are playng just as hard as you do while doing so!!!! <---(4 exclimation points added for Parvo level emphasis). Have you ever given any of these people unconditional congrats? - Or do you always plow into their thread with your permadeath chalkboard Glen Beck style all huffing and puffing about how there is no way this happened under "real" perma conditions. Everyone in the group must have been a raiser, or someone must have stayed back for group security reasons, or they must have farmed easy quests for xp, or gained 2 levels in every slayer zone, or heck, you even pulled a Chai a few times and accused some people of metagaming. :p

Even if you leave my toon out of the discussion, there are quite a few higher level PD players, in amrath and IQ right now, and most of their toons were made 18 months to 2 years ago, or are even older than that. Did every single one of them take easy street to get there? According to this pattern based threshold arguement, they must have, because Parvo hasnt done this yet.

I beg to differ however. A 20 level grind for a non PD player is 1 to 2 weeks depending on how long they play each day, and if they TR or not. I have seen people roll up a non PD toon on friday, and flag it for the shroud the following monday. If it takes a PDer 18 months or longer to get to the same levels on one toon, that tells me they are not walking down easy street and farming xp. Some of the level 20 PD players took 1/3 of the entire life of the game to get to capped xp!!!! (oh man 4 exclamation points, yeah!!!!) Easy street? I think not. But have no fears, after 2 years of hard work, Parvo is right there to kick down the door of your accomplishment and tell you it didnt happen the real PD way.

/signed!!!!! (Five exclamations the extra one is for emphasis)

parvo
06-30-2010, 02:38 PM
...So I will play your little fact game. How about the fact that people have done things that you have not, and are playng just as hard as you do while doing so!!!! <---(4 exclimation points added for Parvo level emphasis). Have you ever given any of these people unconditional congrats? - ....

I showed you several threads where I posted congratulations. Have I missed some PD related achievement postings that you think I should consider?


...Or do you always plow into their thread with your permadeath chalkboard Glen Beck style all huffing and puffing about how there is no way this happened under "real" perma conditions. Everyone in the group must have been a raiser, or someone must have stayed back for group security reasons, or they must have farmed easy quests for xp, or gained 2 levels in every slayer zone, or heck, you even pulled a Chai a few times and accused some people of metagaming. :p....

Again, Chai, this is your twisted perception based on two threads of the same topic. You haven't taken the time to read much else. It's not reasonable to think you will ever come to any type of understanding, but I feel compelled to try. Let's stick to some real talking points here. What do you think makes it easier to progress a permadeath character, free quest selection or auction house use? How do you propose to test that belief? If it's shown your belief is wrong, could you then accept it?