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Failedlegend
04-21-2010, 02:28 PM
Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.


Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 02:37 PM
Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"

Its funny.. You list a whole bunch of characters than can be "Self sufficient" but then in the same breath you want to know why people dont like playing healbots....

I play Clerics and FvS's mostly because I enjoy the flexibility of doing whatever needs to be done to get the quest completed.

I dont play them because I like to sit around starting at red bars.

Krag
04-21-2010, 02:54 PM
I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

WF are p2p. Clerics are free and almost as good.
All other choices have only lesser forms of self-healing and can't nuke.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"

Its funny.. You list a whole bunch of characters than can be "Self sufficient" but then in the same breath you want to know why people dont like playing healbots....

I play Clerics and FvS's mostly because I enjoy the flexibility of doing whatever needs to be done to get the quest completed.

I dont play them because I like to sit around starting at red bars.

^THIS^ and I'll add to it.

Most Clerics worth their weight will avidly adoid the LFMs that say "need healer", and some even avoid those that only have Clr & FvS icons shown in the LFMs.
This game is much diferent from other MMOs in that respect.

Not all Clerics are healers and not all healers are Clerics.

Buggss
04-21-2010, 03:01 PM
...Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"....

Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.

Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

jarlaxle_dourden
04-21-2010, 03:05 PM
Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"

Its funny.. You list a whole bunch of characters than can be "Self sufficient" but then in the same breath you want to know why people dont like playing healbots....

I play Clerics and FvS's mostly because I enjoy the flexibility of doing whatever needs to be done to get the quest completed.

I dont play them because I like to sit around starting at red bars.

Help me ...

I am totally in agreement with Impact ... :S

If someone yells HEAL ME ... HEAL ME ... and they are capable of healing themselves ... I inform them that the wand and scroll vendor is in House J. ;)

I play plenty of support chars (clerics, bards, rogue) and I must admit ... seeing in the lfm NEED HEALER is a deterrent to me to join. I want to join groups that I don't mind healing but I am also free to use many of the other tactics afforded to the Cleric and FvS classes.

People are too dependent on healer types it is better for the game to educate them on how to be a little more self reliant ... most people catch on very easily ... others ... get added to my "Friends" list.

jarlaxle_dourden
04-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.

Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

Nothing wrong with asking ... just don't be surprised when you wait for hours for a healer to click the LFM ... and in the end turns up to be no better than the Hireling you could have picked up for 5K and saved yourself many minutes/hours of gameplay.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 03:09 PM
Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.


Whats unbelievable is that there are so many players that cannot provide themselves with "Adequate" healing.



Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

you dont need to be TR'd to be self sufficient. You dont need to be wealthy either. you just have to play smart. DONT do quests that are out of your league. Try running Normal instead of Elite. try backing out of a tough fight instead of Screaming "HJEAL ME!!!!!!!!!!". Try using tactics instead of Brute force.

Cure Mod wands are cheap and quite effective through the mid levels.



Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

I assume you jump onto your cleric and join those LFM's every chance ya get then right?

Tumarek
04-21-2010, 03:11 PM
Thats why i play Battleclerics... the people who dont know what they are doing will decline me and that actually will help me find groups that are worthy of my healing....

and dont get me wrong i heal better then 80% of the clerics out there who are full nanybots... with double the sp i have


But i must agree with you 100%... a cleric or a fvs who doesnt heal is a gimp... no matter how good his build is

Calebro
04-21-2010, 03:12 PM
Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.

Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

Let's look at the rest of the clases then, shall we?

Cleric: can heal
Favored Soul: can heal
Paladin: Lay on Hands, cure spells, and cure wands, easy to get UMD high
Bard: UMD, cure spells, and cure wands
Ranger: cure spells and cure wands
Monk: (light path) Fists of Light, Healing Ki, Wholeness of Body
Rogue: UMD
Wizard: bugged to use cure wands, self heal if WF
Sorcerer: self heal if WF, easy to get UMD high
Barbarian: screwed
Fighter: plenty of feats if halfling to take Dragonmarks, otherwise screwed

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

What exactly do you need a healer for?

Nezichiend
04-21-2010, 03:13 PM
Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"
/snip

I gotta disagree with this...
Although a solid group will never NEED a cleric, it makes things MUCH easier with less resources. Why would you want to run a quest using more resources just because you don't want to get a cleric?
And why is having someone who can heal mean that he will do the quest for you? It is very difficult to solo some types of quests on a healer and they NEED dps to do it.

And raids. Would you ever put up an LFM for ToD without having a FvS or a cleric? Or Shroud? Or VoD (not really really needed here, but I have never seen a VoD without a healer)? Or Epic DQ2? or Epic VoN6?

Self-Sufficient characters have to give something up to be self-sufficient. And that is usually dps. So having 12 self-sufficients do less DPS than 11 high-dps and 1 healer.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 03:17 PM
Self-Sufficient characters have to give something up to be self-sufficient. And that is usually dps. So having 12 self-sufficients do less DPS than 11 high-dps and 1 healer.
Wrong.
Look at my list above. Barbarians have to give something up to be self-sufficient, and most fighters.
Everyone else simply SHOULD BE self-sufficient.
And even those Barbs and Fighters should carry some potions, so where's the problem?

jarlaxle_dourden
04-21-2010, 03:17 PM
I gotta disagree with this...
Although a solid group will never NEED a cleric, it makes things MUCH easier with less resources. Why would you want to run a quest using more resources just because you don't want to get a cleric?
And why is having someone who can heal mean that he will do the quest for you? It is very difficult to solo some types of quests on a healer and they NEED dps to do it.

And raids. Would you ever put up an LFM for ToD without having a FvS or a cleric? Or Shroud? Or VoD (not really really needed here, but I have never seen a VoD without a healer)? Or Epic DQ2? or Epic VoN6?

Self-Sufficient characters have to give something up to be self-sufficient. And that is usually dps. So having 12 self-sufficients do less DPS than 11 high-dps and 1 healer.

Not that I disagree ... but it has to come down to how long are you willing to wait?

and again ... going back to Impacts point ... and believe me it is valid as I play healer type 90% of my game time ... If an LFM reads healer needed ... I ignore it ... and I don't think I am alone.

You can't fight human nature ... so ... How long are you willing to wait?

PS: I agree raids are a different beast altogether ... most healer types recognize this.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 03:23 PM
I gotta disagree with this...
Although a solid group will never NEED a cleric, it makes things MUCH easier with less resources. Why would you want to run a quest using more resources just because you don't want to get a cleric?
And why is having someone who can heal mean that he will do the quest for you? It is very difficult to solo some types of quests on a healer and they NEED dps to do it.

And raids. Would you ever put up an LFM for ToD without having a FvS or a cleric? Or Shroud? Or VoD (not really really needed here, but I have never seen a VoD without a healer)? Or Epic DQ2? or Epic VoN6?

Self-Sufficient characters have to give something up to be self-sufficient. And that is usually dps. So having 12 self-sufficients do less DPS than 11 high-dps and 1 healer.

Wow, talk about going off into left fiend while playing Water polo......

We're talking about regular quests here for the most part..... Not Epic Raids..... but on that regard, no, I would NOT join a Epic LFM either that had "NEEED CERLIC" in the Comments......

bottom line. Good groups dont need to beg for healers. If you are to the point that you need to, something is wrong with the group. Not joining those groups has nothing to do with not wanting to heal.... I play a decent cleric/FvS. DOnt get many complaints at all.... From solid players..... It has everything to do with not wanting to subject myself to people who dont want to be self sufficient at all...

Kinda like when I join a normal Shroud group and the first question I get is "How many mana Pots do you have?"

Are you kidding me? I havent used mana pots in a shroud run in ages.....

I rarely have trouble getting a Cleric or FvS in my Groups.. My LFM's usually read "In Progress, BYOH"

Its amazing how many Clerics and FvS's will hit those LFM's. and... Wait FOr it..... Wait some more..... STILL HEAL their party mates during the quest......

If you make the effort to take care of yourself, I have NO PROBLEM making the effort to take care of you as well.

Nezichiend
04-21-2010, 03:24 PM
Wrong.
Look at my list above. Barbarians have to give something up to be self-sufficient, and most fighters.
Everyone else simply SHOULD BE self-sufficient.
And even those Barbs and Fighters should carry some potions, so where's the problem?

Barbs with 900hp will take 30pots to get them to full. And it will take a while sitting there drinking 30 pots.

Everyone is self-sufficient to some point, but if you doing an epic quest you would get like 2 attack animations off before backing off to heal, then going back in. That takes WAY TOO LONG.
Rangers run out of sp and to make their healing good enough they would have to take maximize or something (taking away from something else).

If you are running easy quests, sure you don't need a healer. But if the monsters do more damage than you self-heal (which happens very often) you will need a dedicated healer.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 03:27 PM
Barbs with 900hp will take 30pots to get them to full. And it will take a while sitting there drinking 30 pots.

Everyone is self-sufficient to some point, but if you doing an epic quest you would get like 2 attack animations off before backing off to heal, then going back in. That takes WAY TOO LONG.
Rangers run out of sp and to make their healing good enough they would have to take maximize or something (taking away from something else).

If you are running easy quests, sure you don't need a healer. But if the monsters do more damage than you self-heal (which happens very often) you will need a dedicated healer.

Once again, Impaqt took the words from my mouth.
See above.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 03:27 PM
If you are running easy quests, sure you don't need a healer. But if the monsters do more damage than you self-heal (which happens very often) you will need a dedicated healer.


And if your any good at what you do, you wont need to beg in the LFM for a healer.

Chai
04-21-2010, 03:32 PM
Welcome to DnD

Clerics (or FvS) are not solely "heal bots" here in DDO like they are in other games. They are not simply religated to playing the "healer" role in the party because they have a priest icon next to their name.

They can fight, heal, buff, cast, etc - and can focus on other stats than just the max mana and healing stat.

A str based Favored Soul for instance, can have over 30 str, fight well in melee, and still have more mana than a fully pimped out cleric.

Nezichiend
04-21-2010, 03:32 PM
And if your any good at what you do, you wont need to beg in the LFM for a healer.

I really don't care if a LFM is begging for a healer or not. If they want one and I need to do the quest mentioned, I will join (well unless the group sucks then I wouldn't join on any of my characters).

And on my cleric there is very little I can do besides heal with a full group (don't get me wrong here, my cleric doesn't suck ;))
Blade barrier really doesn't do much when there is someone who can do much more damage. Any melee should be able to do more damage than me blade barriering does so dropping one probably gets 2 ticks off (around 300-1000 damage depending on saves/crits/eardweller).

Calebro
04-21-2010, 03:35 PM
I really don't care if a LFM is begging for a healer or not. If they want one and I need to do the quest mentioned, I will join (well unless the group sucks then I wouldn't join on any of my characters).

And on my cleric there is very little I can do besides heal with a full group (don't get me wrong here, my cleric doesn't suck ;))
Blade barrier really doesn't do much when there is someone who can do much more damage. Any melee should be able to do more damage than me blade barriering does so dropping one probably gets 2 ticks off (around 300-1000 damage depending on saves/crits/eardweller).

Divine casters have many more tricks besides Healing and Blade Barriers.
Play with your spells sometime. Learn them.

Corpsebride
04-21-2010, 03:40 PM
I don't see it as my place to argue with another player over what they do and do not want to do. I simply mark them down on my do not group list if it is a greivance so bad as to warrant it or a significant playstyle clash. If you run into a cleric that refuses to heal and it bothers you, just make sure to avoid them in the future. If you are leading the group be clear as to your expectations before inviting someone to group and if they won't meet it, politely decline them and find a replacement that will. That goes for any class, any group, any quest.

If your LFM's take forever to fill, then consider a hireling and asking yourself and your group mates to BYOH and be self sufficient - with group tactics and careful play, being self sufficient does not have to be expensive. It drives me nuts to run on my cleric with groups where no one has even heard of heavy fortification or curse removal/lesser restoration pots. I don't mind decursing, but if you have a curse that prevents healing and I'm on cooldown, you'll die before I can get to you - especially if you are squishy! Being prepared to take care of yourself to some extent is expected - and if you can't, the healers will very quickly pick up on it and avoid you like the plague. If you are incapable of taking care of yourself, consider this: I once had a barbarian hand me 10 raise scrolls and a stack of heal scrolls, saying only that I would need them. He at least knew his limitations and tried to be proactive instead of just assuming the healer would be able to 100% watch him.

herzkos
04-21-2010, 03:45 PM
Because many of the lfm's that say need healer are trainwrecks
waiting to happen. Ones that say need good healer are definitely
off limits to most competent clerics.

clerics play this game (whatever their build) for fun as well.
NOT to get cussed at and blamed by people that do their best
to commit suicide at every opportunity and expect their "healer"
to bail them out.

also, party makeup (levels and classes) play a role as well as which
quest the group is intending to run.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 03:48 PM
clerics play this game (whatever their build) for fun as well.
NOT to get cussed at and blamed by people that do their best
to commit suicide at every opportunity and expect their "healer"
to bail them out.

Pretty much this.

taurean430
04-21-2010, 03:51 PM
Barbs with 900hp will take 30pots to get them to full. And it will take a while sitting there drinking 30 pots.

Everyone is self-sufficient to some point, but if you doing an epic quest you would get like 2 attack animations off before backing off to heal, then going back in. That takes WAY TOO LONG.
Rangers run out of sp and to make their healing good enough they would have to take maximize or something (taking away from something else).

If you are running easy quests, sure you don't need a healer. But if the monsters do more damage than you self-heal (which happens very often) you will need a dedicated healer.

I don't understand why it is that you are confusing regular quests with epic/raid content?

And by this time I have come to the understanding that some players simply want a hireling... of course without even spending in game money on that. They want a healbot - someone to follow right behind them and stare at their red bar and spam spells to keep it constantly full. Nothing else... at. all. That's not what I do as a healing class. These are the same kinds of players without remove curse pots or wands, and won't utilize house buffs either. They expect that is what the healer is there for... I'd even go so far to as to say that if the strategy appears to be to get as much as they can from everyone else, so they can buy what they think is a weapon of uberness from the AH.

It's no coincidence in my observations insofar that the lfm's the read NEED HEALER/ NEED HJEALS are chock full of these types of players. I say no thank you.

Emili
04-21-2010, 03:56 PM
Stop being a group of eejits already... people heal where they can, they heal themselves and where it applies heal others. FvS and clerics tend to heal more because they can Heal more. Quite simple... You bloody go into a quest together ... if you're a heal capable character you heal yourself and others, You cannot expect the level 20 berzerker to pull off Horoth and start drinking potions no more so then let him die and tell him afterwords - you should have healed yourself. Plain silly idea... you go into a quest together and you work as a team... if you wish to not work as a team then do not bother grouping - ever!

I can take near any character and solo much the game... question comes down to this? Do I want some company to play - together - or am I out only to do it myself.


I don't understand why it is that you are confusing regular quests with epic/raid content?

Where I and many people come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment - a blink of a character's eye - of the time to get here.

Corpsebride
04-21-2010, 04:03 PM
You cannot expect the level 20 berzerker to pull off Horoth and start drinking potions no more so then let him die and tell him afterwords - you should have healed yourself.[/I]


No one is talking about Raids and Elite/Epic content - that would be silly beyond reason. The discussion is around regular questing only and no one has brought the topic of raid healing into question.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 04:10 PM
Where I and many people come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment - a blink of a character's eye - of the time to get here.


And where I and many people come from - all the other levels - this is the GAME.... all that grinding of the same quests over and over again is but an annoyance that we don't want to deal with - the death of the character - and it's not rez'able.

guardianx2009
04-21-2010, 04:12 PM
I'll give you a recent example..

My L10 Cleric joined a group for Gladewatch Outpost Elite figuring it would be a quick and easy run. Most of the group is level 8 - 9. As the quest started, I start running in with the melees with my curse spewer to "tag" everything and throwing CC's, etc. Next thing I hear the leader complaining saying "stay back at the gate! You're a healer do your job!"

...... Need I say more? It's groups like those that make us NOT want to join LFMs "LOOKING FOR HEALz"

Nezichiend
04-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Divine casters have many more tricks besides Healing and Blade Barriers.
Play with your spells sometime. Learn them.

Divine CC is very hard to land at high lvls (well it really depends what quests you are running, I pop energy drain + hold person without heighten often in VoN1ep).

Damage spells are very mana-inefficient.

What do you want me to learn?

Mr_Ed7
04-21-2010, 04:13 PM
One problem about having a certain attitude about healing or having the mentality of "heal/cure" yourself is...well here is an example:

My party was engaged in fighting a boss.

At one point I was saying "Conan needs a remove curse! Conan needs a remove curse!"

The reply I got was "Drink a Remove Curse pot!"
The problem was, I was not Conan... he was the main fighter who was tanking the boss. I had been removing his curses, but I was dead.

So once again having an elitist attitude can be detrimental, not only to one's fun but perhaps even to the quest itself.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 04:16 PM
Stop being a group of eejits already... people heal where they can, they heal themselves and where it applies heal others. FvS and clerics tend to heal more because they can Heal more. Quite simple... You bloody go into a quest together ... if you're a heal capable character you heal yourself and others, You cannot expect the level 20 berzerker to pull off Horoth and start drinking potions no more so then let him die and tell him afterwords - you should have healed yourself. Plain silly idea... you go into a quest together and you work as a team... if you wish to not work as a team then do not bother grouping - ever!

I can take near any character and solo much the game... question comes down to this? Do I want some company to play - together - or am I out only to do it myself.


Where I come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment of the time to get here.



Completely missed our point you did.....

No one ever said the Main tank on horoth needs to be completely self sufficient. I dont understand why people need to go to the extreme to try to disprove things...

"Of course it totally acceptable for a group of Level 4's running Waterworks to wait around to 38 Minutes with a LFM up that says "NEED UBER HEALER", what do you expect? a 900HP Barbarian tanking the Demon Queen on Epic to drink Pots?"

taurean430
04-21-2010, 04:17 PM
Stop being a group of eejits already... people heal where they can, they heal themselves and where it applies heal others. FvS and clerics tend to heal more because they can Heal more. Quite simple... You bloody go into a quest together ... if you're a heal capable character you heal yourself and others, You cannot expect the level 20 berzerker to pull off Horoth and start drinking potions no more so then let him die and tell him afterwords - you should have healed yourself. Plain silly idea... you go into a quest together and you work as a team... if you wish to not work as a team then do not bother grouping - ever!

I can take near any character and solo much the game... question comes down to this? Do I want some company to play - together - or am I out only to do it myself.


Where I come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment - a blink of a character's eye - of the time to get here.



Healing a group is indeed what I do, but it's not all that I do. What's required for the group to make it through Shroud for example isn't the same as what's required for the group to complete Madstone Crater. Any group outside of a raid that expects the healing classes to do nothing at all save stand back and fill red bars is not my kind of group. Especially when I know for a fact that it can be done while utilizing crowd control/melee/and other spells.

Level 20 content, raid content, etc... is markedly different in what is required regarding a healing class in what I have seen so far in this game. I heal raids, and have no issues doing that. However the method that's used to do that effectively is not going to work out for me in non raid/epic content.

jarlaxle_dourden
04-21-2010, 04:21 PM
One problem about having a certain attitude about healing or having the mentality of "heal/cure" yourself is...well here is an example:

My party was engaged in fighting a boss.

At one point I was saying "Conan needs a remove curse! Conan needs a remove curse!"

The reply I got was "Drink a Remove Curse pot!"
The problem was, I was not Conan... he was the main fighter who was tanking the boss. I had been removing his curses, but I was dead.

So once again having an elitist attitude can be detrimental, not only to one's fun but perhaps even to the quest itself.

Conan ... for coming into a party unpreparred ... IE: No curse removal pots ... would end up on my "Friends" list ... That's how I roll ...

... and "healers" that do pander to these types ... are not really helping these players to learn how to take care of themselves.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 04:27 PM
Conan ... for coming into a party unpreparred ... IE: No curse removal pots ... would end up on my "Friends" list ... That's how I roll ...

... and "healers" that do pander to these types ... are not really helping these players to learn how to take care of themselves.

I treat Main Hate Tanks differently. If this was VoD for example, yes, the main tank gets a Pass on using Madstone. I.. or someone else.. will remove his curses.....

However, that kind of thing needs to be made clear at the start of the raid. If ya got a meatbag fighter thats gonna be doing the main tanking against a boss that throws curses, it needs to be made clear who's going to be removing those curses.

If you refuse to carry Remove curse pots, or think you need to be madstoning all the time, sooner than later, your going to be on your own.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 04:27 PM
I personally avoid running with battle clerics, unless we already have a good healing cleric. Something quite fun I started to do recently is to refuse to disable traps [My disable device is high enough for every quest I've ran into, I don't know yet about epic].

So when I group with a cleric who tells me to heal myself instead of doing it, I tell him to remove the traps by himself. Having an active evasion allows me to avoid enough damages to get on the other side without huge harm and then heal myself while the jack have to go through the traps (now that the traps are striking for 200 it's really fun to see ^^), heal himself (if he did survive...), whine then leave, to get replaced by a hireling which often turns out to heal way better.

Evil? Maybe, but it makes things SO much more fun ^^

People need to keep in mind that if we really can heal ourself, we won't bring a healer with us, a DPS would be quite better.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 04:30 PM
I personally avoid running with battle clerics, unless we already have a good healing cleric. Something quite fun I started to do recently is to refuse to disable traps [My disable device is high enough for every quest I've ran into, I don't know yet about epic].

So when I group with a cleric who tells me to heal myself instead of doing it, I tell him to remove the traps by himself. Having an active evasion allows me to avoid enough damages to get on the other side without huge harm and then heal myself while the jack have to go through the traps (now that the traps are striking for 200 it's really fun to see ^^), heal himself, whine then leave, to get replaced by a hireling which often turns out to heal way better.

Evil? Maybe, but it makes things SO much more fun ^^

People need to keep in mind that if we really can heal ourself, we won't bring a healer with us, a DPS would be quite better.

So...

The cleric telling you to heal yourself, which is something you're quite capable of doing...

...is equivalent to telling the cleric to remove the traps, which is something he's NOT capable of doing.

...

I question your intelligence.

Anthem
04-21-2010, 04:31 PM
Very rare is the cleric who won't heal competent party-mates when it's needed, and when that's what it takes to get the quest done.

Quite often though, an experienced cleric can bring down mobs more efficiently than the (possibly poorly-built, and inexperienced) people they're grouped with, and it is a frustrating waste of time to stand back and keep useless mana-sponges standing, when we could bring a mob down ourselves in half the time and taking a fraction of the damage.

We can very quickly spot who is costing us more resources than they're worth, and just as quickly we can spot those who are well-built, competently played and assets to the party.

A properly built melee usually gets the best possible healing from clerics because it's quickly obvious when we'll best succeed that way. Conversely, when the Cleric sees he's the better melee than the poorly-built and/or poorly-played Fighter, then it's in the party's best interests for everyone (including the Cleric) to step up and do the Fighter's job for him. Usually for the Cleric while still healing the group, though with less emphasis on the Marshmallow.


No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do[...]

And no other class is expected by others to ignore all of their other abilities just to stand back and focus on just one ability. That rogue you mentioned, do you also expect him to just quietly follow along and only work the traps the same way you expect us to just stand back and only heal?


why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...

We make clerics in the first place because we can heal, because we can crowd-control, because we can offensive cast, because we can buff, because we can melee, and because we have solid enough AC and HP to survive and thrive on the front line. IMO clerics are the most versatile, and overpowered class in the game, and capable of doing anything that needs to get done.

Keeping ineffective party members on their feet simply doesn't need to get done.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 04:32 PM
So...

The cleric telling you to heal yourself, which is something you're quite capable of doing...

...is equivalent to telling the cleric to remove the traps, which is something he's NOT capable of doing.

...

I question your intelligence.
A cleric could do it, he'd have to take the disable device as cross-skill. Will it work? Probably not. It can be compared to asking a class which is NOT good at healing to heal himself. The selfish game can go very far. It's much better when everybody focus on what they do best.

Anthem: I think there are way more clerics who simply refuses to heal than you think... I am not talking about selective heals, which is all fine, but really about cleric who simply DON'T WANT to.

Mr_Ed7
04-21-2010, 04:33 PM
Conan ... for coming into a party unpreparred ... IE: No curse removal pots ... would end up on my "Friends" list ... That's how I roll ...

... and "healers" that do pander to these types ... are not really helping these players to learn how to take care of themselves.

OK. Put him on your "Friends" List (Which by the way I use for my FRIENDS...?!) after you give him the remove curse, 'cuz he is probably saving your @$$ at the moment!

taurean430
04-21-2010, 04:36 PM
I personally avoid running with battle clerics, unless we already have a good healing cleric. Something quite fun I started to do recently is to refuse to disable traps [My disable device is high enough for every quest I've ran into, I don't know yet about epic].

So when I group with a cleric who tells me to heal myself instead of doing it, I tell him to remove the traps by himself. Having an active evasion allows me to avoid enough damages to get on the other side without huge harm and then heal myself while the jack have to go through the traps (now that the traps are striking for 200 it's really fun to see ^^), heal himself (if he did survive...), whine then leave, to get replaced by a hireling which often turns out to heal way better.

Evil? Maybe, but it makes things SO much more fun ^^

People need to keep in mind that if we really can heal ourself, we won't bring a healer with us, a DPS would be quite better.

I see you've missed the point yet again. In this MMO, a healing icon does not translate into a healbot. They are two entirely different things. Even in that example you've given you'd find many players that would simply avoid whatever trap it is that you are referring to. That's not the point of the discussion.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 04:37 PM
I see you've missed the point yet again. In this MMO, a healing icon does not translate into a healbot. They are two entirely different things. Even in that example you've given you'd find many players that would simply avoid whatever trap it is that you are referring to. That's not the point of the discussion.
Just like a rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey.

Some traps just can't be avoided.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 04:38 PM
A cleric could do it, he'd have to take the disable device as cross-skill.

...Uhh, no, no he can't take disable device as a cross skill.

He'd had to have a level of Rogue to do that.

A Rogue doesn't need a level of Cleric to whip out a wand and start healing himself.

I take back what I said about questioning your intelligence. You just answered my question for me.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-21-2010, 04:41 PM
A cleric could do it, he'd have to take the disable device as cross-skill. Will it work? Probably not.

He can't use the skill without a level of rogue. You on the other hand as a rogue can take full ranks in UMD.

By the way, most clerics won't really care if you disable traps. Taps in this game rarely matter. Most can be timed and/or offset with resistances.

But welcome to the game and enjoy learning it




Some traps just can't be avoided.

Which ones? Certainly not very many...

Phidius
04-21-2010, 04:42 PM
I gotta disagree with this...
Although a solid group will never NEED a cleric, it makes things MUCH easier with less resources. Why would you want to run a quest using more resources just because you don't want to get a cleric?...

Because I hate waiting... I'd rather spend my gaming time actually gaming. If the cost of resources concerns someone, it may be that they've spent more time waiting for a healer than playing.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 04:43 PM
...Uhh, no, no he can't take disable device as a cross skill.

He'd had to have a level of Rogue to do that.

A Rogue doesn't need a level of Cleric to whip out a wand and start healing himself.

I take back what I said about questioning your intelligence. You just answered my question for me.
Last time I checked, a single bard/rogue level would unlock the skill. Just like the fighter will have to take rogue levels for his DD. To me, it is extremely simple: refuse to heal, deal with what you can't deal with.

I've done it some times in the past days and did not get any bad comments about this... Well, beside from the clerics who died this way, but it's a good thing they won't come with me in the group anymore :)

Anthem
04-21-2010, 04:45 PM
I personally avoid running with battle clerics, unless we already have a good healing cleric. Something quite fun I started to do recently is to refuse to disable traps [My disable device is high enough for every quest I've ran into, I don't know yet about epic].

So when I group with a cleric who tells me to heal myself instead of doing it, I tell him to remove the traps by himself. Having an active evasion allows me to avoid enough damages to get on the other side without huge harm and then heal myself while the jack have to go through the traps (now that the traps are striking for 200 it's really fun to see ^^), heal himself (if he did survive...), whine then leave, to get replaced by a hireling which often turns out to heal way better.

Evil? Maybe, but it makes things SO much more fun ^^

People need to keep in mind that if we really can heal ourself, we won't bring a healer with us, a DPS would be quite better.

That would be funny, except it's not materially different from running without a rogue, which is pretty much the norm anyway.

Heal up, rez up if needed, and carry on. Pretty standard fare.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 04:49 PM
That would be funny, except it's not materially different from running without a rogue, which is pretty much the norm anyway.

Heal up, rez up if needed, and carry on. Pretty standard fare.
Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.


A single level of BARD would unlock the skill? Are you freaking kidding me?
Oh noes, I did a mistake, what a shame. Does it matter? Not really, doesn't change the fact that adressing the clerics the same way they do to others is a very fun thing to do and I strongly recommend doing so. However, I strongly suggest that you take a break from this game boy, having such nerdrages is really bad for your health.

taurean430
04-21-2010, 04:54 PM
Just like a rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey.

Some traps just can't be avoided.

A rogue or bard icon doesn't translate into a trap monkey to me. If I've started a party for a quest, I oftentimes ask in the lfm for what is needed. Trapsmith/Arcane/DPS very welcome or some such. As for traps in the game leading up to lvl 20; I've yet to see one that can't be avoided.

But the example I think is an aside issue. I've noticed on my trip back to level 20 this time around on my main, (as well as on my alts), that the expectation of players to behave only as their icon denotes has not diminished. It's actually gotten much worse.

This only appeared to be present in Korthos and the Harbor, and was a non issue following that. Players who thought that way either didn't make it past that area, or picked up that this MMO is unique in that aspect. One of the things I like the most about this game is that your icon doesn't denote all that you can do. And I get just as annoyed as anyone else when someone completely ignores the strengths of their class. But many builds utilize Multiclassing or UMD to expand playability/surviveability and they bring this to any parties they are part of.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-21-2010, 04:56 PM
Let's look at the rest of the clases then, shall we?

Cleric: can heal
Favored Soul: can heal
Paladin: Lay on Hands, cure spells, and cure wands, easy to get UMD high
Bard: UMD, cure spells, and cure wands
Ranger: cure spells and cure wands
Monk: (light path) Fists of Light, Healing Ki, Wholeness of Body
Rogue: UMD
Wizard: bugged to use cure wands, self heal if WF
Sorcerer: self heal if WF, easy to get UMD high
Barbarian: screwed
Fighter: plenty of feats if halfling to take Dragonmarks, otherwise screwed

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

What exactly do you need a healer for?

Yep! ;)

And the rest of the group can help the Ftr and Brbs out.

Barbarian rage causes problems, and their huge amount of HP makes potions seem trivial. Add in the increased damage they take. Ftrs at least might have an AC option to not need as much healing.

Yep. I'll try to forgive Barbarians when I can. And I also understand the desire they have to rush to the next fight while their rage is still going. But everyone else shouldn't be so needy IMO.

For those who say healing is too expensive, CLW wands are dirt cheap. They just require you to stand still for awhile to use them. Again Barbarians have a valid reason for not wanting to stand still long enough.

Chai
04-21-2010, 04:57 PM
Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.

Traps are an obstacle to be overcome for sure, but dealing with traps does not always = a rogue disabling them.

Even in PnP, a fighter that jumps a pit trap to deal with other circumstances gets xp for dealing with the trap. In DDO you may not get xp for this, but dealing with traps in a dungeon does not solely = a rogue taking them down.

The person you are talking about in Monastery could have slapped a resist buff on themselves and got through the trap, while self healing.

It is this simple. In DDO your class icon does not = you playing one specific role in a group, like it does in other games.

Ystradmynach
04-21-2010, 04:58 PM
The only two classes aside from clerics and favored souls who can efficiently heal, even on a limited basis without interrupting their primary job in a party or expending large sums of money are bards and paladins. And even they aren't half as good at healing as clerics and favored souls. Rangers can cast weak healing spells with a limited SP pool, but that would mean they likely aren't buffing the rest of the parts with barkskin, elemental resists or freedom of movements and the like. And while most classes can wand whip, it is slow going, expensive, and you can't fight with a wand in your hand. Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use.

Can divine casters do more than heal and buff? Of course they can, they can melee, cc, nuke and so on. But other classes can fulfill those roles just as well if not better than clerics and favored souls. So honestly, if a cleric or favored soul doesn't heal at all, what reason would you have to take them over, say a wizard or a bard or any other dps character?

Of course this doesn't make it right for divine casters to be yelled at for doing something other than healing, in fact they should be encouraged to do more than heal, just like rogues should be encouraged to do more than disable traps. But that doesn't mean that everyone looking for a healer is looking strictly for a nanny healbot who gets barked at for doing anything other than healing. Most requests for healers are looking for someone to make the quests easier because of the composite of a cleric and favored souls abilities, the most important of which is their ability to heal quickly and efficiently while still being able to fulfill other roles in the party.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 05:01 PM
The only two classes aside from clerics and favored souls who can efficiently heal, even on a limited basis without interrupting their primary job in a party or expending large sums of money are bards and paladins. And even they aren't half as good at healing as clerics and favored souls. Rangers can cast weak healing spells with a limited SP pool, but that would mean they likely aren't buffing the rest of the parts with barkskin, elemental resists or freedom of movements and the like. And while most classes can wand whip, it is slow going, expensive, and you can't fight with a wand in your hand. Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use.

Err, yeah, Clerics and FVS have to do a lot of wand whipping, too, so why do they have to spend money on it that no other class should?

Also, Sorcs and Wizards get wand and scroll enhancements, too...

Phidius
04-21-2010, 05:04 PM
...Plus, bards are the only non-divine class that can even take enhancements to improve their wand and scroll use...

... and wizards with 23 ranks in UMD :D

Antheal
04-21-2010, 05:07 PM
If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

Anthem
04-21-2010, 05:08 PM
Oh it happens easily Ant. I did it yesterday in Monastery of the Scorpion. The cleric was running everywhere, saw a shrine on his map, bam dead. Are they smart? Well, I'll just say this:
He died more than once before realizing the trap should've been removed.

I didn't say it doesn't happen. I said it's no different than running without a rogue, as most of us regularly do.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 05:12 PM
If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

and If you refuse to play within your capabilities and take care of basic necessities, why would I bother playing in your party?

being self sufficient has nothing to do with being anti-social or working as a TEAM to get things done.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 05:14 PM
If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

When you are self-sufficient, you able to help your teammates.

Not to mention a group of self-sufficient players means the load gets distributed, whereas soloing means you have to deal with all yourself, and on Elite, I doubt very few people are THAT self-sufficient.

When you are not self-sufficient, it means you're relying heavily on one or more teammates, which is a detriment to them. In other words, it's being selfish.

The exception being when you CAN'T be self-sufficient (See: Barbarians, Fighters). Generally, though, you make up for it in other ways. Like killing the boss quicker so the Cleric/FVS/Bard/Paladin/Ranger/Rogue doesn't have to use additional wand charges on you. At least carry some potions to remove status ailments.

Talon_Moonshadow
04-21-2010, 05:19 PM
If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?


More people working together in any way are more powerful than one person by himself. (usually)

I'm not a good soloist. I need people to help me. They do not need to help me with healing, but if that is the way they can help best, great!

And we help each other. We heal those who cannot heal themselves, or who are doing another important job, or have too much agro.
We buff each other when needed, we take agro from each other. There are a thousand things we can do to help each other without needing a constant healer in the group.

I admit that roles work. And they are the key to popular raid tactics.

But roles are not required. Cooperation, in tough quests, is required, or at least desireable.
It may not need to be organised cooperation, but alert players who have the experience to recognise when someone needs help and who know how to best use their own char's abilities to assist in some way.

Chai
04-21-2010, 05:23 PM
Well, theres a gray area in DDO that definately does not exist in other games to the degree it exists here with divine casters. However, I am definately seeing alot of extremist absolutism on both sides.

On one side I see people saying dont play a divine if you are not going to heal.

On the other side are people who think you are on your own when in a quest with 5 other people.

The other 98% understand doing what is needed in order to complete the quest when it is inside the capabilities for how you built your toon.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 05:24 PM
On the other side are people who think you are on your own when in a quest with 5 other people.


...Except that's not what they are saying at all... in fact, the three posts before yours just addressed this very point -_-

Chai
04-21-2010, 05:27 PM
...Except that's not what they are saying at all... in fact, the three posts before yours just addressed this very point -_-

Perhaps, they too make up a portion of the 98%

Ystradmynach
04-21-2010, 05:29 PM
Err, yeah, Clerics and FVS have to do a lot of wand whipping, too, so why do they have to spend money on it that no other class should?

Also, Sorcs and Wizards get wand and scroll enhancements, too...

Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.

But a couple of things to keep in mind is that the other major cost in a quest besides healing is repairs, which pile up both for engaging in melee and for dying. The second is that as mentioned above, a cleric/favored soul (or bard or arcane caster with enough ranks in UMD, thanks for the correction) with the right enhancements will be better at wand whipping than anyone else. If a divine caster needs resources and I have healing wands on me, I will give them so for free knowing they will make better use of them than I would. All they have to do is ask, and I've given away healing resources unprompted before as well.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 05:32 PM
Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.
That's a great strategy.
Take it a step further though, and always pretend that their bar is empty.
You'll be first on their list at all times if you play with this philosophy, I guarantee it.

Phidius
04-21-2010, 05:36 PM
If there's so much focus on being self-sufficient, why bother playing in a party?

There is a guild on Sarlona who is well known for putting up an LFM for Shroud that says something along the lines of "buff yourself, fast run"... I get into their runs every chance I get because

1. they will complete,
2. they will complete fast, and
3. they will have fun doing it.

Being self-sufficient means being able to contribute to a party more than just typing into party chat "fire resist pls", "HJEAL pls", and "raise dead pls"

Anneliese
04-21-2010, 05:44 PM
On my cleric/fvs I will join groups as a healer and invest resources when its a:

- guild/friend run
- raid/preraid
- (epic)
- story arc quest that I need to complete for various reasons (like flagging)

Else I will usually solo or find a group that does not need a healer per se but welcomes one more party member for a more efficient/faster completion.

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 05:50 PM
Spell points are free, so in theory you shouldn't have to do much wand whipping. If you do run out of spell points, nobody should be obligating you to heal anymore than anyone else. Personally, I do take note of where a divine casters blue bar is and adjust my strategy to compensate.

So you play Recklessly when the cleric has Mana, and play smarter when they run out? oh boy, thanks...




But a couple of things to keep in mind is that the other major cost in a quest besides healing is repairs, which pile up both for engaging in melee and for dying. The second is that as mentioned above, a cleric/favored soul (or bard or arcane caster with enough ranks in UMD, thanks for the correction) with the right enhancements will be better at wand whipping than anyone else. If a divine caster needs resources and I have healing wands on me, I will give them so for free knowing they will make better use of them than I would. All they have to do is ask, and I've given away healing resources unprompted before as well.

repair bills hardly "Pile up" for general hack and slash. and if you die because you are attempting to do something that is above and beyond what you are capable of, that repair bill is on YOU and YOU alone. Clerics have repair bills too, whether it be from deaths or from meleeing. Its essentially the same expenses.

Ystradmynach
04-21-2010, 06:10 PM
So you play Recklessly when the cleric has Mana, and play smarter when they run out? oh boy, thanks...

I mean that if the cleric has no mana, then I often have to divide my time between killing things and wand whipping and/or running away just to survive, which usually ends up causing my teammates to be slaughtered instead, such as the divine caster who ran out of mana.




repair bills hardly "Pile up" for general hack and slash. and if you die because you are attempting to do something that is above and beyond what you are capable of, that repair bill is on YOU and YOU alone. Clerics have repair bills too, whether it be from deaths or from meleeing. Its essentially the same expenses.

Divine casters do have other options other than engaging in melee, even melee oriented clerics will probably spend some time doing other stuff, and thus I very much doubt that their repair bill is quite as high as the raging barbarian, even if you assume everyone dies at an equal rate. My point is that everyone has costs associated with doing quests, whether it is lock picks, repair bills, pots, wands or scrolls.

But yeah, you probably shouldn't bite off more than you can chew. Of course the problem there is often the only way people learn what they can handle is through experience, which usually requires some dying along the way.

I mean, I suppose you can choose to only engage in content below your level so nothing poses mortal danger to your character, but it wouldn't be a very interesting game to play in that case.

GhoulsTouch
04-21-2010, 06:20 PM
Because a solid group of players will never "Need" a cleric to complete anything.

Advertising "Need Healer" is kinda the same thing as putting "can someone please come do the quest for me while I sit back and pike"

Its funny.. You list a whole bunch of characters than can be "Self sufficient" but then in the same breath you want to know why people dont like playing healbots....

I play Clerics and FvS's mostly because I enjoy the flexibility of doing whatever needs to be done to get the quest completed.

I dont play them because I like to sit around starting at red bars.

Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 06:24 PM
Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

That may be the most idiotic post in this thread so far. And that's saying something, because there have been some doozies in this thread.

Perhaps I should elaborate.
Those groups don't dissolve. They complete the quest and move on.
Having someone with the capacity to heal in a party with "BYOH, or Be Self-Sufficient" doesn't give the people who joined a free ticket to NOT follow the LFM's instructions. If there's a healer, you SHOULD have some help, but it's not guaranteed by any means. The specifications of the LFM supersede the party make-up.

Say in Korthos? The people that put up LFMs like that can solo most content, not just Korthos.

GhoulsTouch
04-21-2010, 06:29 PM
That may be the most idiotic post in this thread so far. And that's saying something, because there have been some doozies in this thread.

Pfft...whatever man, if you are a divine caster and cant heal you are a gimp point blank...stay in Korthos. And if you are that cleric/Fs tons of threads have been made in your honor. You aren't "L33T" because you deny heals..in fact man, the rest of us see you as a poor excuse of a cleric. And you know a FS has all the cure spells because do you really think he would let himself die? Of course not, and the sad thing is he has more sp then the cleric does.

Okay gimp you are telling me you took a divine caster and can't heal at all...see ya *remove* send tell/AnonymousFavouredHole "come back when you know the game."

Most casters have more then enough mana to see a job done, the ones that don't drop a blade barrier on every trash mob that grits it's teeth. There could be five firewalls up cast on accident by a sorcerer and wizard independently and for some reason there are some divine casters that feel like having a three ring blade barrier circus is going to make them look good by casting over them in order to try to top the arcanes in kills instead of healing.

Wrong...dead wrong. Much like the arcanes that try to get the kills and wait for the hp of creatures to drop before casting. People arent looking at the kills, they are observing your actions in quests. If you are looking to get the kills you are casting to make up for lack of skills and point to the board and say..."see I was doing my part".

Come on, you are going to cast a Death spell on a Gnoll that's a doghair away from the grave? No wonder you can't heal, you are in a competition with your own ego.

All clerics should be combat clerics who can heal, if you can't do that...do something else and stop causing party wipes. It's a complicated role but if you give up on it, give up on the whole character too. "I don't heal people...because I can't, I am a bad cleric" Admit it, and things will get better for you.

Calebro
04-21-2010, 06:31 PM
Pfft...whatever man, if you are a divine caster and cant heal you are a gimp point blank...stay in Korthos.

I explained above.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

Actually as I've levelled my last three characters, and especially the TRs, I've noticed that self sufficient groups fill the fastest, and are most likely to attract good players. Where new players without a clue join they do leave after one quest, but the seriously solid 3 hour straight with no deaths type parties tend to have started that way. I certainly was quick to join such parties on my TR FvS because I knew I was free to have fun with offensive magic and no one would get whiny and that the players were probably competent players. And of course, once in party I did heal as well.

As for not being able to win withotu a cleric/fvs buffing/healing, that's nonsense. I've seen that from other new players like you who panicked when I just took the first 5 people to join my LFM and they were all melee. "How will we complete <whateverquest> without a caster and healer?" Sometimes such people drop, other times at the end of the quest they just are amazed with the realization that in this game any 6 players who are half competant can complete any quest at level.

akla_thornfist
04-21-2010, 07:12 PM
dont call them healers call then divine casters, sure we heal you when the mobs are kicking your ass and we will bring you back from the dead before they start eating your corpse. but we can take you out just as fast cmon destruction, cometfall, blade barrier, implosion who wouldnt want a cleric in there group.

Failedlegend
04-21-2010, 07:12 PM
Wow you guys totally missed my point...let me reiterate some things I said that you guys just ignored (also I highlighted things for yeah)

- I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed

- Why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didn't want to heal...I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char....I know this isn't their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do AS WELL

- I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.' (A point I might add that you actually use in YOUR defense)

- I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing besides I'd rather the Bard be using his mana for Bard type things like haste or spending his time killing things not worrying about doing the healing that the cleric refuses to do at all.

Now that you've actually read my post instead of assuming I said "durrr me need hjeals svae me cerlic" (which for some reason you always misspell when your imitating other people) I can add a few more points.

Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

My point was NOT that healers she stand there and do nothing except hit the "Heal" key my point was its dumb not to join a group thats looking for a cleric or to outright refuse to heal.

Now the highest Cleric I have is only Lvl 4 so I don't claim to know your so called "plight" but I seem to keep my WF buddies alive just fine with my Wiz/Rogue so whys it so hard for a cleric.

Oh and stop totting the expense of Wands if your running out of mana that quick your either in a really bad group (I will not deny pugs can blow SOMETIMES) or your screwing up....if my wiz runs out of mana its my own damn fault...probably because i was screwing around with useless spells or i left extend on but If I use a little strategy I'll make it to the shrine (or finish the quest) just fine and that's INCLUDING if I'm heal a bunch of WF.

In short while DDO is different than other MMOs (which is why I love it) each Class does have a major strength over the others (Another thing I love about DDO) and a Cleric or FvS just happens to heal a hell of alot better than the others and really every time another class needs to chug a potion instead of relying on the cleric that refuses to heal is less time their doing what their good at.

Edit: Lastly I'd like to say I have grouped with some great Cleric/FvSs that can do it all...healing,meleeing,tanking you name it and not once did they whine about the healing part...sure they weren't topping the kill list but they were holding their own without forsaking healing. Actually alot of the times they complain about healer's they've grouped with on alts

Aashrym
04-21-2010, 07:13 PM
That's a great strategy.
Take it a step further though, and always pretend that their bar is empty.
You'll be first on their list at all times if you play with this philosophy, I guarantee it.

I like how you think :D

taurean430
04-21-2010, 07:14 PM
I mean that if the cleric has no mana, then I often have to divide my time between killing things and wand whipping and/or running away just to survive, which usually ends up causing my teammates to be slaughtered instead, such as the divine caster who ran out of mana.





Divine casters do have other options other than engaging in melee, even melee oriented clerics will probably spend some time doing other stuff, and thus I very much doubt that their repair bill is quite as high as the raging barbarian, even if you assume everyone dies at an equal rate. My point is that everyone has costs associated with doing quests, whether it is lock picks, repair bills, pots, wands or scrolls.

But yeah, you probably shouldn't bite off more than you can chew. Of course the problem there is often the only way people learn what they can handle is through experience, which usually requires some dying along the way.

I mean, I suppose you can choose to only engage in content below your level so nothing poses mortal danger to your character, but it wouldn't be a very interesting game to play in that case.

Tell ya what:

The next time you wipe in a quest and pay your repair bill; following that go buy 50 heal scrolls, 10 neutralize poison pots, 10 remove curse pots, 2 remove blindness pots, 10 raise dead scrolls.

Then compare the cost of that to what you just paid for repairs. Then you might actually have something to say about that. There is a reason that healing classes who dig too often into resources are broke constantly. And also a reason that the party actually wiped in the first place.

Aashrym
04-21-2010, 07:16 PM
Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

I gotta say, nope, I have not noticed that.

Failedlegend
04-21-2010, 07:22 PM
Tell ya what:

The next time you wipe in a quest and pay your repair bill; following that go buy 50 heal scrolls, 10 neutralize poison pots, 10 remove curse pots, 2 remove blindness pots, 10 raise dead scrolls.


Well first off you should be getting curse,poison and blindness (and other ailments) wands not pots far less detrimental to the wallet

Second we need to buy those pots too...usually more since we don't have spells to fix it. Stop acting like Clerics,etc. are the only class that needs to buy things.

Oh and here's a quick GUESS as to who's repair bills are the highest...try playing a Barb and see how much spare change you have

1 Barbarian
2 Fighter
3 Paladin
4 Monk
5 Ranger
6 Rogue
7 Bard
8 Cleric
9 Wizard & Sorc

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 07:50 PM
Wow you guys totally missed my point...let me reiterate some things I said that you guys just ignored (also I highlighted things for yeah)

- I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed

- Why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didn't want to heal...I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char....I know this isn't their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do AS WELL

OK, hold on a Second... So you ran into a couple poor examples of clerics and now you are assuming EVERY cleric is like that? I think your the one that needs to stop and think a second. A Cleric who refuses to heal anyone except themselves under any circumstance just plain sucks. Feel free to kick them from your groups, add them to your blacklists, and move on.



- I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.' (A point I might add that you actually use in YOUR defense)

You are Wrong if youa re applyign this theory to every cleric you meet. I know many clerics are are very happy to even play the "Healbot" role, not to mention dozens that play the traditional Melee/Offensive caster/healer role.



- I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing besides I'd rather the Bard be using his mana for Bard type things like haste or spending his time killing things not worrying about doing the healing that the cleric refuses to do at all.

Oh, so your ok with a character like a bard being multi-faceted, but clerics should only heal?



Now that you've actually read my post instead of assuming I said "durrr me need hjeals svae me cerlic" (which for some reason you always misspell when your imitating other people) I can add a few more points.

Thats how your OP came accross.. and let me tell ya, your not chaning that impression much.



Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

I've seen barbs CHOOSE not to rage in situations that might require them to use Potions... Same thing....

no one is telling you you NEED to group with bad clerics. DONT DO IT.



My point was NOT that healers she stand there and do nothing except hit the "Heal" key my point was its dumb not to join a group thats looking for a cleric or to outright refuse to heal.

Depends on the quest..... Many quests.. Most even... Simply dont require a cleric to complete. You should not take much damage. You should be able to burn though it quick with little issue. If you "Need" a cleric for those quests, you are advertising that you are poor players. Thats how we read it. and most of the time, its true.



Now the highest Cleric I have is only Lvl 4 so I don't claim to know your so called "plight" but I seem to keep my WF buddies alive just fine with my Wiz/Rogue so whys it so hard for a cleric.

get back to us when you cap out your cleric and can actually speak from experience then.



Oh and stop totting the expense of Wands if your running out of mana that quick your either in a really bad group (I will not deny pugs can blow SOMETIMES) or your screwing up....if my wiz runs out of mana its my own damn fault...probably because i was screwing around with useless spells or i left extend on but If I use a little strategy I'll make it to the shrine (or finish the quest) just fine and that's INCLUDING if I'm heal a bunch of WF.

Generally, a cleric runs out of spell points because hes healing a bad group or hes overhealing. Its got litte to nothing to do with "Other" spells



In short while DDO is different than other MMOs (which is why I love it) each Class does have a major strength over the others (Another thing I love about DDO) and a Cleric or FvS just happens to heal a hell of alot better than the others and really every time another class needs to chug a potion instead of relying on the cleric that refuses to heal is less time their doing what their good at.

Here you go again.. Putting "Classes" into "Roles" they are NOT one and the same. If I Choose to make a Clerics whos "Role" is DPS, thats my perogative inthis game. i CAN do that. and you have the right to Not let me join your groups. I can make a rogue that doesnt do traps.(Yes, they are out there) I can make a Ranger that specialized in ranged Combat... I can make a Wizard that Specilizes in ranged COmabt.... I can make a Paladin that focus's on DPS or Defense.... The Class Icon is only PART of the role the character CAN do... its not the end all be all.. I can even make a "Wizard" that can tank Suulomades if I want....(And I did)



Edit: Lastly I'd like to say I have grouped with some great Cleric/FvSs that can do it all...healing,meleeing,tanking you name it and not once did they whine about the healing part...sure they weren't topping the kill list but they were holding their own without forsaking healing. Actually alot of the times they complain about healer's they've grouped with on alts

So why are you now whining in general about "Clerics". Guess what. Some people Suck. DOnt play with them if ya dont want to.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 08:29 PM
I find it funny that many people say "oh a group totally self-sufficient is sooo better than a well organized group". Tell ya what, I've ran with self-sufficient veterans TR and new players. While the veterans kept spamming "use your wands" etc, the new players were quite undergeared but were playing their role almost flawlessly.

Guess what? While the first very easy quests were run faster by veterans who knew the place & had better gear, it did not take long for the group full of new player to catch up and become quite faster. Instead of spamming "use your wand", we were progressing with strategic use of shrines, not losing time standing and spamming heal charges. Indeed, we did have to spam wands sometimes, for exemple, when the cleric was oom [which never lasted anyway, this game seems to place shrines right before a boss quite often...]

Veteran group time completion: 26mins
Newbie group time completion: 22mins

Total cost with veterans: 24000g
Total cost with newbies: 6000g

Teamplay can be done with a full group of self-sufficient players, or by a group full of players specializing at what they do best. Basic economy rule can be applied here to tell which path is the best :)

Zachski
04-21-2010, 08:31 PM
I find it funny that many people say "oh a group totally self-sufficient is sooo better than a well organized group".

I find it funny that you're the only person that's said that, considering that a well-organized group would be self-sufficient.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 08:35 PM
So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

2 and a half. Not all monks are light path.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 08:36 PM
I find it funny that you're the only person that's said that, considering that a well-organized group would be self-sufficient.
Two very different things.
A group can be composed of self-sufficient players to reach self-sufficience. But it can also be composed of specialized players to reach the GROUP self-sufficience.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 08:41 PM
Two very different things.
A group can be composed of self-sufficient players to reach self-sufficience. But it can also be composed of specialized players to reach the GROUP self-sufficience.

Or by being self sufficient, they can make the group sufficient. Everyone's job in the party becomes easier. The healer doesn't have to waste mana or wand charges when the tank chugs status-cleansing potions or tops himself off with healing potions.

Sorry, Khelden, this isn't WoW. Please stop trying to make it WoW.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 08:44 PM
Or by being self sufficient, they can make the group sufficient. Everyone's job in the party becomes easier. The healer doesn't have to waste mana or wand charges when the tank chugs status-cleansing potions or tops himself off with healing potions.

Sorry, Khelden, this isn't WoW. Please stop trying to make it WoW.
The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 08:51 PM
Actually, with bladebarriers, Clerics will often outdamage the DPS (at least until all the DPS are geared/enhanced out at end-game levels)

Secondly, it's not always about DPS: The cleric which commands everything ensures better survivability than a frenzied bezerker.

Zachski
04-21-2010, 08:53 PM
The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

Which, according to you, ONLY consists of healing.

I'd bring up Blade Barrier, but it's already been brought up.

Listen, Guy-Who-Thinks-Bard-Gets-Disable-Device, you're been consistently proven wrong, yet your only method of defense is "Well I haven't seen it."

Here's a tip: Just because you're level 19 or 20 doesn't mean you know absolutely everything about the game. You just have one character up there. Most of the people you're talking to have more than that. Not myself included, but I generally listen to those who know what they are doing.

Anthem
04-21-2010, 08:55 PM
Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special

A. Now you're just trolling. You've moved your argument and now the whole class of clerics refuse to heal? I can confirm I've seen many players who would not or could not fill their "role". But a whole class? No. And neither have you.

B. Healing is not unique.

C. We clerics aren't so special. Who told you we were?

Khelden
04-21-2010, 09:00 PM
Actually, with bladebarriers, Clerics will often outdamage the DPS (at least until all the DPS are geared/enhanced out at end-game levels)

Secondly, it's not always about DPS: The cleric which commands everything ensures better survivability than a frenzied bezerker.
There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Secondly, you are quite right. But I personally consider this survivability, which is pretty much the cleric job. If the cleric knows that the mobs can be commanded and that it would make him use less SP than Healing, well this cleric is a good one and I already like him!

Zachski
04-21-2010, 09:03 PM
There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Secondly, you are quite right. But I personally consider this survivability, which is pretty much the cleric job. If the cleric knows that the mobs can be commanded and that it would make him use less SP than Healing, well this cleric is a good one and I already like him!

Too bad you're already on almost every GOOD Cleric's blacklist :P

Khelden
04-21-2010, 09:07 PM
Too bad you're already on almost every GOOD Cleric's blacklist :P
Lol, if they do think like you, they are probably bad... And would get kicked quite fast... I really hate how we can't kick people inside the quests... Would be really handy to replace baddies with hirelings :D

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 09:11 PM
There are many things to consider: Bladebarrier outDPS .. Very situational. More often than not, it is a misconception due to high tick damage. However, things must be considered: time required to kill things with BB + Spell Points required to cast the spell. The cleric can run out of SP. Some very good clerics I know do cast BB from times to time to help with the DPS. But, once again, it is to HELP the DPS. Not to DPS, they stick with their primary role: healing. When they cast BB, I know that they already planned out that their current SP vs the content left is enough (they never do in 1st run though)

Actually, if against melee enemies, bladebarriers are usually a better option, both because less damage is taken overall, and you can attack more than one at a time. It's only with ranged/stationary/teleporting mobs, or those which needs to be neutralized ASAP for whatever reason (like beholders), or timing-critical mobs, or single-mob situations where focused DPS work better. (excluding raid/elite/epic situations where HP bloat causes efficiency to be a core requirement)

To put simply: if the cleric uses more SP to heal than to cast BB, BB is obviously a better choice.

taurean430
04-21-2010, 09:14 PM
Well first off you should be getting curse,poison and blindness (and other ailments) wands not pots far less detrimental to the wallet

Second we need to buy those pots too...usually more since we don't have spells to fix it. Stop acting like Clerics,etc. are the only class that needs to buy things.

Oh and here's a quick GUESS as to who's repair bills are the highest...try playing a Barb and see how much spare change you have

1 Barbarian
2 Fighter
3 Paladin
4 Monk
5 Ranger
6 Rogue
7 Bard
8 Cleric
9 Wizard & Sorc

The example was theoretical... If you prefer, I can lay out an exact figure for you, which will far exceed anything you've EVER spent on repairs on a barb. How do I know this... I have one on another account.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 09:17 PM
Actually, if against melee enemies, bladebarriers are usually a better option, both because less damage is taken overall, and you can attack more than one at a time. It's only with ranged/stationary/teleporting mobs, or those which needs to be neutralized ASAP for whatever reason (like beholders), or timing-critical mobs, or single-mob situations where focused DPS work better. (excluding raid/elite/epic situations where HP bloat causes efficiency to be a core requirement)

To put simply: if the cleric uses more SP to heal than to cast BB, BB is obviously a better choice.
This has not happened to me yet. Pretty much each time, the melee DPS would get mobs down faster than BB. As I said previously, a big misconception of BB is his big tick damage. Those are ticks which must fire, while melee always swing their weapon.

If a BB tick for 500 but in the meantime a melee do 600-700, the DPS is better on the melee side, so the cleric should simply assist the DPS. (Doesn't mean he can't cast BB, BB is often a great help, but he should consider the situation before doing so. A cleric out of SP due to BB spam will never get reinvited by me again)

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff :D]

Zachski
04-21-2010, 09:20 PM
Lol, if they do think like you, they are probably bad... And would get kicked quite fast... I really hate how we can't kick people inside the quests... Would be really handy to replace baddies with hirelings :D

Ahahaha, I really hate you.

No, seriously. You haven't even been on the forums that long, yet you're touting yourself as the "Elite DDO player"

Here's a tip. You're not. You're not even that intelligent. Hell, you don't even know that much about the game itself, yet you think you somehow have the right to come in here and start telling Clerics and FVS to get back and heal, and you are labouring under the delusion that battle clerics are somehow inferior.

Here are your personal failings just today.

1. You think that a telling a Rogue to heal himself with a wand (UMD is a class skill) is equivalent to telling a Cleric to handle traps (which isn't even a cross-class skill, it needs to be unlocked by getting a level in rogue)

2. You think that bards get Disable Device, which quite frankly, astounds me. I actually thought you were more intelligent then that.

3. You think that self-sufficiency and team play are somehow polar opposites.

Mistakes that not even a novice like me could make. I'll admit, I don't know that much about the game. But it's time for you to admit that you don't either. You got to level 20 on ONE CLASS and somehow you think you're king of the game. You're just further proof that there's noobs in high-level play.

There's a reason your reputation is in the negatives, and it isn't because your opinion is unpopular. It's because it's flat-out wrong. And yes, opinions can be wrong.

So please, learn some humility or GTFO. You've been consistently proven wrong and yet you still perpetuate your garbage. I actually had hope for you in one thread, but you disappointed me in this thread.

By the way.


This has not happened to me yet.

Predictable argument. So it hasn't happened to you, so therefore, it must not exist.

Sorry, that's just lame.

k0ukla
04-21-2010, 09:25 PM
I consider myself to be a pretty darn nice cleric most of the time and heal anyone when possible although lag sometimes gets in the way of it but a couple of times ive found that ppl arent healing themselves between battles and it is really irritating me ofcourse it's when i join pugs that im not sure of to join in the first place but despite my better judgement i do it anyway so i do understand it is my fault..

and on a side note can ppl stop callin me healer.... "wait for the healer" or "healer heal me" i dont say "warforged fight for me" or "rogue disable trap" or "sorc fw" :| call me by my toon name is it so hard?

anyway moral to that is: now i will rarely join a group "looking for a healer"

Khelden
04-21-2010, 09:25 PM
Wall of text...
Lol, you make me laugh. 1st and 3rd mistake are not mistakes at all. 2nd one, yeah I never played bard whoops, shame on me.

You talk alot about intelligence, I can easily say you don't even know what intelligence is. If you lack the logical skills & knowledge to make your own idea, it's pretty much your own fault and should reconsider who's lacking intelligence. Go get some economy class to learn about optimisation. Oh, some maths class would help you too.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 09:26 PM
This has not happened to me yet. Pretty much each time, the melee DPS would get mobs down faster than BB. As I said previously, a big misconception of BB is his big tick damage. Those are ticks which must fire, while melee always swing their weapon.

If a BB tick for 500 but in the meantime a melee do 600-700, the DPS is better on the melee side, so the cleric should simply assist the DPS. (Doesn't mean he can't cast BB, BB is often a great help, but he should consider the situation before doing so. A cleric out of SP due to BB spam will never get reinvited by me again)

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff :D]

And speaking of misconception...
1) Bladebarriers don't tick like firewalls. They do damage whenever mobs move either in or out of them. Depending on the speed of mobs, this can either be fast or slow.
2) Bladebarriers need the mobs to be moving. Unfortunately, this also means that melee should NOT aggro the mobs unless they want to help to kite. If you grab aggro and just stand there letting the mobs wail on you, yes, the bladebarrier is mostly useless. And you are a drain on efficiency.

Also, I've yet to see any melee with 600-700 DPS, and especially not in AoE style.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 09:40 PM
This is a tick.



So you admit BB is a tick-based spell [not all ticks are similar], which require the DPS to keep moving around. As I said, 600-700 is NOT DPS, but more likely the time required to activate the BB tick (which can be not effective at all sometimes). I've done the grab aggro, run in-out game for testing purpose in some quest. First, it was not very efficient. Sometimes I would run out to get the monster out, then back in to make him get back and he would get no damages. It happened a couple of times, and we did not find why exactly yet, but it was enough for us to continue with the normal DPS way. Sure, we use BB sometimes, but we don't rely on it for our DPS at all. It is more likely... Hit the monsters, BB is up, bring the monster in slowly, out, in, out but we stay on the monster and keep DPSing him, instead of simply running around without hitting him.

1) Fine, that's your definition of tick, which is not the usual definition, given that firewall has both duration tick damage, and the damage when mobs move through them.
2) If you can't get a melee mob to move in and out of a bladebarrier effectively, don't penalize the good clerics who know how to. It's more than just running in and out yourself, it's also that the mob itself must be in and out. (which is why people throw bladebarriers near (but not overlapping each other) to get them to move in/out faster, since they'll be moving in one direction).

EDIT: Just making sure, you are NOT overlapping the BBs right?

Khelden
04-21-2010, 09:41 PM
1) Fine, that's your definition of tick, which is not the usual definition, given that firewall has both duration tick damage, and the damage when mobs move through them.
2) If you can't get a melee mob to move in and out of a bladebarrier effectively, don't penalize the good clerics who know how to. It's more than just running in and out yourself, it's also that the mob itself must be in and out. (which is why people throw bladebarriers near (but not overlapping each other) to get them to move in/out faster, since they'll be moving in one direction).
I specifically said we were making sure the mob was moving inside and outside... We're not dumb lol. But like I said, it was not working properly each time... Might be latency or idk, we'll prolly do some testing later.

MeliCat
04-21-2010, 10:05 PM
I treat Main Hate Tanks differently. If this was VoD for example, yes, the main tank gets a Pass on using Madstone. I.. or someone else.. will remove his curses.....

However, that kind of thing needs to be made clear at the start of the raid. If ya got a meatbag fighter thats gonna be doing the main tanking against a boss that throws curses, it needs to be made clear who's going to be removing those curses.

If you refuse to carry Remove curse pots, or think you need to be madstoning all the time, sooner than later, your going to be on your own.

Just to confirm Impaqt you believe that no barbarian should rage in any quest you heal in? Or you just make a point of not grouping with any barbarians? So you believe that anyone playing a barbarian should completely gimp their playing while you are healing them? You get more curses in VOD than you do rage timers.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 10:07 PM
Just to confirm Impaqt you believe that no barbarian should rage in any quest you heal in? Or you just make a point of not grouping with any barbarians? So you believe that anyone playing a barbarian should completely gimp their playing while you are healing them? You get more curses in VOD than you do rage timers.

Or maybe just not rage in VoD.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 10:11 PM
Or maybe just not rage in VoD.
Not using rage is a really HUGE loss of DPS to the barbarian... Just without frenzy + death frenzy, a fighter outDPS him... I've made an excel sheet comparing GA,GS,Falchion (all greensteel) on Barbarian and Fighter, considering a similar strenght mod [this was only to see the weapon dmg output to know which weapon was the best]... I could work on it abit to see how much % DPS a barbarian could lose using those, but need to get alot more information in heh

The file is a project and I am planning to make it accessible for reviews

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Not using rage is a really HUGE loss of DPS to the barbarian... Just without frenzy + death frenzy, a fighter outDPS him...

Yes, and not meleeing in ADQ2 is a huge loss in DPS to any melee... Maybe specific quests are not geared to some classes?

Calebro
04-21-2010, 10:20 PM
2 and a half. Not all monks are light path.
2
I said what I meant.
Not all Monks are light path, but all monks get Wholeness of Body, which basically amounts to a full heal every few minutes.
Light path monks just get more.

Khelden
04-21-2010, 10:22 PM
They lose ~33.4% DPS on a greataxe or greatsword without using rage & frenzies.

I've considered these factors:
# of Hits
STRMod
PAtk
BDmg
HumanDmg [the file was made for my own use at the base xD]

NormCritsProc
NormCritsDone
NormCritsMul
NormCritsDmg
Element2
Element3
Vicious
NormCritsTot

DeadCritsProc [19-20 on a barbarian]
DeadCrits
DeadCritsMul
DeadCritsDmg
Element2
Element3
Vicious
DeadCritsTot

NormHits
NormHitsDmg
Element1
Element2
Vicious
NormHitDmg

*Element 1 = Elemental base dmg [1d6]
*Element 2 = Elemental burst [1d6+3d6/4d6]
*Element 3 = Element Blast [1d10, 2d10. Did not include the 20 roll]

Feel free to correct me if I am missing some factors please.

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 10:24 PM
2
I said what I meant.
Not all Monks are light path, but all monks get Wholeness of Body, which basically amounts to a full heal every few minutes.
Light path monks just get more.

Actually, it heals me about 60 HPS at my level (getting 6 hp per tick, and I think about 10-ish ticks)... which considering I've almost 300 HPs (depending on stance), it's just a fraction of my health. Not to mention that I've to sit down doing nothing during that whole healing process.

It's much faster to just chug light repair pots.

@Khelden

A dead Barbarian does 0 DPS. Just as no healers in their right mind would constantly heal any melee getting overrunned because they insist on meleeing in ADQ2, if you insist on raging to your death, I can't blame the healers for not healing you either.

MeliCat
04-21-2010, 10:37 PM
Actually, it heals me about 60 HPS at my level (getting 6 hp per tick, and I think about 10-ish ticks)... which considering I've almost 300 HPs (depending on stance), it's just a fraction of my health. Not to mention that I've to sit down doing nothing during that whole healing process.

It's much faster to just chug light repair pots.

@Khelden

A dead Barbarian does 0 DPS. Just as no healers in their right mind would constantly heal any melee getting overrunned because they insist on meleeing in ADQ2, if you insist on raging to your death, I can't blame the healers for not healing you either.

ok... but to confirm Kyrn you also would have a barbarian only doing a mininimum amount of dps rather than a full amount and assisting removing their curses? So ignoring your extreme statment of 0 dps = dead you are just happy with minimum dps?



I really don't understand what the big deal is. Barbarians can't remove their curses while raging. I see them in a party. I will assume they are raging. I will remove their curses if the healer does not appear to be doing so.

I find it so odd that people ABSOLUTELY INSIST on this particular point of self sufficiency FROM EVERY SINGLE PLAYER even though the game mechanics don't get the best out of everyone if you do this.

It's so, I don't know, not being a team player?

I also personally find it kind of a fun mini game trying to remove peoples 'hats' as I party :) Which is why I carry around pots of cure poison on my WF fighter :)

Kyrn
04-21-2010, 10:40 PM
Just for note: Just because I don't blame them doesn't mean it's my policy. I've cleared more than my share of blindness, stat reductions, and curses on my dark monk with no UMD. I'm only saying that the logic is understandable.

(and on a team-player perspective, it may be a better option for another melee to help uncurse the barbarian so that the healer can focus more reliably on the tank and healing.)

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Just to confirm Impaqt you believe that no barbarian should rage in any quest you heal in? Or you just make a point of not grouping with any barbarians? So you believe that anyone playing a barbarian should completely gimp their playing while you are healing them? You get more curses in VOD than you do rage timers.



Not using rage is a really HUGE loss of DPS to the barbarian... Just without frenzy + death frenzy, a fighter outDPS him... I've made an excel sheet comparing GA,GS,Falchion (all greensteel) on Barbarian and Fighter, considering a similar strenght mod [this was only to see the weapon dmg output to know which weapon was the best]... I could work on it abit to see how much % DPS a barbarian could lose using those, but need to get alot more information in heh

The file is a project and I am planning to make it accessible for reviews


Here we go with more Jumping to extreme idiotic conclusions......

Yes, a Barb should be Raging in EVERY end game quest that requires significant DPS. ANd SOMEONE should be assigned to take care of those rages.. Buf If I'm in a Inspired Quarter quest with some Dex ROgue that "Needs to madstone", he might find himself on the short end of Remove CUrse line.

Emili
04-21-2010, 11:09 PM
ok... but to confirm Kyrn you also would have a barbarian only doing a mininimum amount of dps rather than a full amount and assisting removing their curses? So ignoring your extreme statment of 0 dps = dead you are just happy with minimum dps?



I really don't understand what the big deal is. Barbarians can't remove their curses while raging. I see them in a party. I will assume they are raging. I will remove their curses if the healer does not appear to be doing so.

I find it so odd that people ABSOLUTELY INSIST on this particular point of self sufficiency FROM EVERY SINGLE PLAYER even though the game mechanics don't get the best out of everyone if you do this.

It's so, I don't know, not being a team player?

I also personally find it kind of a fun mini game trying to remove peoples 'hats' as I party :) Which is why I carry around pots of cure poison on my WF fighter :)

... and this was the point of my post earlier. People go off on - OH be self-sufficient, well guess what? We're all different levels of Self-sufficient.

I've 13 high level characters - 10 are level 20, the lowest level 14 (actually trying to decide how far or what my plans are with her).

Needless to say, I carry potions. scrolls and wands on everywhere... but you know what? I have 13 girls with an income which - because one is a bard - far exceeds what the first-time newbie on his first level 10 (or even level 19) per-say has for an income while I expect them to try for some self-sufficiency. I have 13 times the income ... I sometimes make but 100kpp on a slow night while others 500-600k pp ... Is nothing for me to go out and spend 5k on 100 cure potions or 11k pp on a stack of scrolls for every toons replenishment ... is simple. Bloody hell I do so for guildies too... I may turn around and run 13 shrouds back to back... 13 of any raid and hall in 13 times the loot out of every quest in comparison. I realize there are people out there on their first character who do not have the luxury.

Before a VoD will tell... make sure you have remove curse potions (you know what I carry those on my barbarian too... along with lessers and everything else... those without umd carry at least 100 coure potions into any quest... typically 2-3 x that) but still when in group - after a battle I may be on my bard or rogue or ranger and I'll toss a scroll heal or wand whip on a cleric I see not topped. Especially in the lower level quests...

You come with the attitude that a raid or an epic is somehow different... I play as a team in every quest... may be Tangleroot at level 4, Play as a team player all through the game, we're in the bloody quest together... I do not care if you're a noob and you're being a bloody eejit touching switches or what-not you should not be... you'll learn, but yes I'll still I'll heal stupid ... it eventually sinks in and they become more alert, more of a team player anyway, and they remember - This is a team. The attitude is taught socially... - when you persist in telling people - you're on your own and that's what they go with... and come EPIC and Elite in ToD they take that same play style in there with and bloody do not know how to play as a team. When I do not feel like playing in a group ... I go play something on solo... plain and simple.

I somehow believe some of you had forgotten what we were like five plus years ago scraping by in threnals or XC for our first times on our first characters with no haggle and but 3-10k in our pocketbooks? Well you know what? There are people out there in DDO very much like that today... and they do not become self-sufficient alone - If you think we did you bloody fooling yourself ...we did it together.

btw... I see a anyone in VoD with a curse... I target them and click the pot, even from my fighter.

Now all the people who jumped at the OP... have you read it?


Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

Translates - bring some healing, be self-sufficient... but hey why is that Cleric not casting a heal my way occssionally while am hit hard?

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

Translates - Yes cast other spells even melee but your healing is better than other classes and quicker then another class may do, yet you're not watching for for being a little proactive.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

Translates - He feels you're out there only for you ... your not there for the team effort.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.

Translates - Many rogues can disable traps and while not all is reasonable to ask... and never heard a melee not swing a weapon?

Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing

Translates - He's come across Bards and other classes who slip into occasional support and toss a heal yet some clerics complain to do such?


... and many people come in and tout what he already knew... Cleric's/FvS do more than heal - he said such... all he's asking is why some of them refuse to do it?

When I put up an LFM I take the first six to come based on name actually... I'll tell you this though - many at level quests or above go quicker and easier when one of the party are a cleric/FvS or really anyone who has high healing capacity by comparison...

Khelden
04-21-2010, 11:13 PM
Here we go with more Jumping to extreme idiotic conclusions......

Yes, a Barb should be Raging in EVERY end game quest that requires significant DPS. ANd SOMEONE should be assigned to take care of those rages.. Buf If I'm in a Inspired Quarter quest with some Dex ROgue that "Needs to madstone", he might find himself on the short end of Remove CUrse line.
...We're talking about barbarian rage... It is kinda their only way to deal competitive DPS... I mean... The rogue can still deal great DPS without Madstone lol... But the barbarian without rage is meh...

Impaqt
04-21-2010, 11:42 PM
...We're talking about barbarian rage... It is kinda their only way to deal competitive DPS... I mean... The rogue can still deal great DPS without Madstone lol... But the barbarian without rage is meh...

Maybe you went off on some tangent about Barb rage... I didnt.....

Khelden
04-22-2010, 01:02 AM
Hmm...

Blah blah blah, I'm an idiot who's got nothing better to do, blah blah blah...
?

Anthem
04-22-2010, 01:02 AM
So you admit BB is a tick-based spell [not all ticks are similar], which require the DPS to keep moving around. As I said, 600-700 is NOT DPS, but more likely the time required to activate the BB tick (which can be not effective at all sometimes). I've done the grab aggro, run in-out game for testing purpose in some quest. First, it was not very efficient. Sometimes I would run out to get the monster out, then back in to make him get back and he would get no damages. It happened a couple of times, and we did not find why exactly yet, but it was enough for us to continue with the normal DPS way. Sure, we use BB sometimes, but we don't rely on it for our DPS at all. It is more likely... Hit the monsters, BB is up, bring the monster in slowly, out, in, out but we stay on the monster and keep DPSing him, instead of simply running around without hitting him.

Wow, just wow.

If you got your 6,000 and 10,000 Vale slayers each time with melee instead of blade barriers, it must have taken you ...taken you ...taken you ...no, wait, you'd still be working on your first 10,000. I'm gonna guess that you are.

Khelden
04-22-2010, 01:06 AM
Wow, just wow.

If you got your 6,000 and 10,000 Vale slayers each time with melee instead of blade barriers, it must have taken you ...taken you ...taken you ...no, wait, you'd still be working on your first 10,000. I'm gonna guess that you are.
Got a better way to run Vale personally... Splitted groups. Reached 3k in 1 day with this method

Kam-Ekaze
04-22-2010, 01:16 AM
Hmm...

?

Hello sir,

I do not often reply to drabble but I am going to bite into your trolling this once even though I know it is to fall to deaf ears. First and foremost I find it amusing that you are calling me an idiot with nothing better to do after having posted over 20 trolling posts in a single thread, stubbornly trying to prove something you are wrong about, but oh well, godspeed to you.

Secondly, I am saddened that you have found your way to this wonderful community. It is people with an attitude much similar to yours which drove me away from World of Warcraft in the first place. While I don't really care much for your player skill or general lack-of, your failure to heed advice or listen to others is appalling and a shameful example.

I wonder to myself why I even bother writing this, as people much like you generally only really find enjoyment out of arguments and causing others grief while hiding behind the anonymous world of the internet. It is quite frightening that such acts could cause anyone happiness, but it is a sad truth in many online communities out there.

You ought to ask yourself, who really has nothing better to do?

For what it matters, I hope for you sir to make a change some day, and be ready to engage in open debate rather than continue your reckless close-minded troll arguments.

In your quest for betterment, I wish you Godspeed and good health. And I wish you well regardless of your insults to myself and the entire community. I tell you this without being insulting or aggressive because I know deep inside, you are simply just a lonely young boy wishing for some companionship in life.

Thank you for your time, sir.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 01:16 AM
Got a better way to run Vale personally... Splitted groups. Reached 3k in 1 day with this method

A whole 3k in a day? How is that better than a solo cleric doing the same in 3.5 hours, maybe 4 with smoke breaks? or two doing it in 2 hours?

Emili
04-22-2010, 01:19 AM
This has not happened to me yet. Pretty much each time, the melee DPS would get mobs down faster than BB. As I said previously, a big misconception of BB is his big tick damage. Those are ticks which must fire, while melee always swing their weapon.

If a BB tick for 500 but in the meantime a melee do 600-700, the DPS is better on the melee side, so the cleric should simply assist the DPS. (Doesn't mean he can't cast BB, BB is often a great help, but he should consider the situation before doing so. A cleric out of SP due to BB spam will never get reinvited by me again)

What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff :D]
A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.

Khelden
04-22-2010, 01:29 AM
A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.


I wish you good luck trying to explain this, I personally gave up.

Emili
04-22-2010, 01:45 AM
I wish you good luck trying to explain this, I personally gave up.
Oh, am not explaining anything to him... he's being silly, emotional over nothing.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 02:13 AM
A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.



But we don't cast them on one mob. We run blades to take down the four or eight or eighteen mobs at once that melees can't handle. It's how we prevent total party wipes when healing won't cut it.

Kyrn
04-22-2010, 02:17 AM
A tweaked max empowered Potency critting BB is nice ... on rare occasions breaching 500 on a mob... one thing should note also - some mob evade it too... Kiting on a cleric works well but is not all the best of DPS. This is caster style as a FW but slightly less potent at times... Melee DPS varies by class/build.




Slightly less at time, much more at times.

1) I believe Kheldon was the first one to use the 500 damage blade barrier argument. Even if we assume non-crit...
2) Blade Barrier is not affected by any damage resistances that I know of, making it reliable on almost any melee-type mobs.
3) A fully max/emp/pot bladebarrier not counting crits deals 225 - 337.5 (average 281.25) which is still a respectable figure.
4) But the most important thing is that it's AoE and it involves kiting (aka not staying in melee range to get hit). Against single targets, melee is probably a better solution. Against multiple targets, barring evasion, teleport, ranged, bladebarrier is probably better. The melee can take on those targets instead.

PopeJual
04-22-2010, 07:01 AM
Completely missed our point you did.....

No one ever said the Main tank on horoth needs to be completely self sufficient. I dont understand why people need to go to the extreme to try to disprove things...

"Of course it totally acceptable for a group of Level 4's running Waterworks to wait around to 38 Minutes with a LFM up that says "NEED UBER HEALER", what do you expect? a 900HP Barbarian tanking the Demon Queen on Epic to drink Pots?"

There's a very big area in between where a Cleric/FvS makes life so much easier that it's worth waiting 10 minutes for one. Let's say you're going to do Prey on the Hunter. Do you want the melee to step out of the fight for long enough to heal themselves? Even if it's a group of all Paladins and Rangers who brought a stack of Cure Moderate and Cure Serious wands - do you want them to stop beating on the giants for long enough to heal themselves in the middle of a fight?

I understand that it's completely reasonable to expect folks to top themselves off in between fights when there isn't a healer around. In fact, a pocket cleric works just fine for that, so if you can 5-man the quest, then you can bring a pocket cleric and get your healing for just about free.

There are a whole lot of quests in the game where you have some big fights that are going to take more than your total HP if you don't get some mid-fight healing.

Healers should be doing more than just healing in a quest and Rogues/Bards/Arcane casters should be helping out on the WF healing when possible, but quests go a WHOLE LOT more smoothly and a whole lot faster when there's a healer in the party. If you're going to spend 10 minutes quaffing and a gajillion gold on cure pots to keep yourself afloat in a quest, why not spend the 10 mintues waiting for a healer?

Should you be able to take care of yourself in most circumstances? Absolutely! Should you be taking care of yourself in most circumstances? NO. You should be taking care of EACH OTHER. That's why you brought a party into the quest in the first place. So you could support each other.

jarlaxle_dourden
04-22-2010, 08:00 AM
Ever notice how those "self sufficient" groups attract three members top at most and dissolve almost immediately unless they are doing low level favor quests or there is a healer amongst them that totally nullifies the headline when they start nursing the egotists back to health?

If you are self sufficient you don't need a party. Stay in Korthos.

I have a couple clerics and a FS...and I am not stupid. If you don't heal or buff others you don't win. If you think you can without doing so...do it away from me. I don't want to help you level, your ego can stay where it is.

Join Date ... Feb 2010 ... give it some time mate :)

Failedlegend
04-22-2010, 08:34 AM
I somehow believe some of you had forgotten what we were like five plus years ago scraping by in threnals or XC for our first times on our first characters with no haggle and but 3-10k in our pocketbooks? Well you know what? There are people out there in DDO very much like that today... and they do not become self-sufficient alone - If you think we did you bloody fooling yourself ...we did it together.


Now all the people who jumped at the OP... have you read it?


Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

Translates - bring some healing, be self-sufficient... but hey why is that Cleric not casting a heal my way occssionally while am hit hard?

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

Translates - Yes cast other spells even melee but your healing is better than other classes and quicker then another class may do, yet you're not watching for for being a little proactive.

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

Translates - He feels you're out there only for you ... your not there for the team effort.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.

Translates - Many rogues can disable traps and while not all is reasonable to ask... and never heard a melee not swing a weapon?

Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing

Translates - He's come across Bards and other classes who slip into occasional support and toss a heal yet some clerics complain to do such?



Thank you...finally some who actually read my post (and translated it to normal human speech :P). +1 to you...also the rest of your post was also quite true

@ Impaqt: I am ashamed for you sir...your advice/posts are usually so good and have gotten alot of +rep from me...Maybe your just used to defending your playstyle... maybe try not to assume things...I dunno

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2010, 08:38 AM
The healer can't waste mana when he's HEALING since it is his role lol. He will be wasting mana only when the group is taking unecessary hits.

Want to make a healer who's still worth to bring without healing with him? Make him outDPS the DPS. But as long as the DPS will outDPS him, he'll be better at making sure these DPS stay alive.

There is no "healer" class. If by that you mean FvS and Cleric, their "roll" isn't to heal. Their roll is to be effective casters and/or melee. Some of that casting includes healing. And my FvS often outkilled the melee while levelling.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2010, 08:40 AM
What I've seen though, is mages casting wail of the banshee and have better results than melee DPS. However, by doing so we're not wasting SP on DPS [mage, job is to deconstruct stuff :D]

No, a mage's job is to heal the WF. Anything else is failing to do their roll. Isn't that your logic for clerics?

If it is ok for a mage to wail, why not for a cleric to use Implosion.

Really, you need to learn this game.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2010, 08:45 AM
Better to be full of overconfidence... Than full of emptyness :)

Btw, I've always wondered how people like you do in life... I can pretty much think of the picture... No gf, no real studies, low income, is life good for you? Wonder how much you could make... 30 000 per year? Lol, this is what your definition of "intelligence" brings you? :)

So now you've dropped to personal insults?

Married, 1 kid, Masters degree, multiple professional degrees, I've taught at University, and I make $150K/year.

I guess your guess on those that disagree with you are about 100% off base.

Oh, and /reported for the multiple forum violations in your last couple posts.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2010, 08:48 AM
Here we go with more Jumping to extreme idiotic conclusions......

Yes, a Barb should be Raging in EVERY end game quest that requires significant DPS. ANd SOMEONE should be assigned to take care of those rages.. Buf If I'm in a Inspired Quarter quest with some Dex ROgue that "Needs to madstone", he might find himself on the short end of Remove CUrse line.

Agreed. Plus of course the cleric/fvs isn't the only one that can use a remove curse wand. This task is often assigned to someone else.

Impaqt
04-22-2010, 08:52 AM
@ Impaqt: I am ashamed for you sir...your advice/posts are usually so good and have gotten alot of +rep from me...Maybe your just used to defending your playstyle... maybe try not to assume things...I dunno

Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

MeliCat
04-22-2010, 09:55 AM
Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

Sheeesh. Settle petal.




When I am on my cleric as a good party member I will buff, heal (not necessarily to max as I hope they do their own top ups between fights), remove 'hats', rebuff, break enchantment to remove destructive things, debuff enemies so that my party members can smack them harder, heal, top up party members caster/pally/bard/whatever sp with my DVs, do some basic CC so that my party members can smack harder, heal, rebuff, handle levers that my party members keep getting aggro interrupted on, heal, rebuff, kite if needed to remove trash from my party members, stand still and block if needed so that my party members can do smackdowns, heal, rebuff, kill the enemy cleric/caster as fast as possible, heal.

Oh... and at the moment I only have a Nannybot. :) Love my nannybot.

Failedlegend
04-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Your ashamed of ME? lol, who do you think you are? your're the one that decided they needed to make a general post about clerics rather than post about a specific issue. I happen to be one of those clerics, and I heal.....

I dont need to defend my playstyle. Nobody does.

I wouldnt have to assume things if you were more clear with your presentation. I'm still not understanding why you have decided to lump all clerics into this imaginary group of evilness. No one is forcing you to play with poor players. Many clerics are quite good at healing. Many are quite good at doing multiple tasks. and some are just plain aweful.

Complain about the things you dont like.

Complain about poor players.

DONT complain about "Clerics" in General.

Wow you really are ignoring EVERYTHING I say except what you think I'm saying.

Never ONCE did I say ALL clerics...I used words like "some" or "many" on purpose and tried other ways to walk on eggshells for sensitive people because I knew I'd get ripped into for daring to suggest somebody might be wrong.

Emili even simplified what I said for people and you STILL claim I said ALL or IN GENERAL

Also just to clarify I'm NOT claiming to be anyone special but I do usually trust that your advice is right so I didn't expect this from you.



Thank you again to Emili and the other people that have been discussing the topic maturely and by actually reading what people say and responding in kind

Anthem
04-22-2010, 11:03 AM
Never ONCE did I say ALL clerics...I used words like "some" or "many" on purpose and tried other ways to walk on eggshells for sensitive people because I knew I'd get ripped into for daring to suggest somebody might be wrong.


Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.

See. You most clearly lumped us all together, and picked on the class rather than the player.

Your backpedaling hasn't gone un-noticed though, and we appreciate that. However, I'm sure you can see why you still owe Impaqt specifically, and clerics in general, an apology rather than a denial.

Failedlegend
04-22-2010, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by Failedlegend
Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.


See. You most clearly lumped us all together, and picked on the class rather than the player.

Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't ; Actually I specifically said I'm referring to the ones who ignore the fact that they even have healing spells or ONLY use them for themselves...I really hope that's NOT all clerics.

Once again I refer you to Emili's Post..it sums up my words well (The second quote)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2912536&postcount=111

Oh and I owe an apology? Once again, apparently there's no room for opinions or disagreeing here..so yes I'm sorry...I'm sorry that you can't see reason and can't be civil about things just because someone disagree with you.

Lorien_the_First_One
04-22-2010, 12:47 PM
Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't ; Actually I specifically said I'm referring to the ones who ignore the fact that they even have healing spells or ONLY use them for themselves...I really hope that's NOT all clerics.

Once again I refer you to Emili's Post..it sums up my words well (The second quote)

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2912536&postcount=111

Oh and I owe an apology...like I said apparently there's no room for opinions or disagreeing here..so yes I'm sorry...I'm sorry that you can't see reason and can't be civil about things just because someone disagree with you.

You picked a good name for yourself.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.


Anyways if you can name me another class that refuses to do their unique thing go ahead...find me a Barb that refuses to rage or a Bard that refuses to sing. Really if people did this you wouldn't group with them so why are clerics so special.


Wow I can't believe I missed the fact that I said every single cleric EVER refuses to heal...oh wait that's because I didn't [...]

No you just made gross generalizations. I know there's a difference, but do you know that difference is vanishingly small?

Again we appreciate your backpedaling, this time removing the flaming red emphasis of your original post. That's some solid revisionist re-packaging of yourself.

We totally get it, and if you don't like clerics played to their full potential, nobody's forcing you to group with them. There are plenty of one-trick nannybots in the game who will be more than happy to do nothing but babysit your health bar for you.

Chai
04-22-2010, 01:24 PM
Veteran group time completion: 26mins
Newbie group time completion: 22mins

Total cost with veterans: 24000g
Total cost with newbies: 6000g



I dont believe your example to be 100% self sufficient vets completing in more time than new players would, and the key indicator is if it was, no one would have to spam "use your wands" etc. regarding healing. That group was at least half noobs. What ou outlined is more along the lines of how not being self sufficient when playing with vets who are will hold the entire group up.

Many vets will spend more money and resources to be self sufficient to get get the job done faster. While I dont think they should necessarily force that playstyle on new players, it helps new players to learn both, because there are times where they will need this even with a dedicated healer in the group.

This translates all the way up to running epics quests, sans dedicated healer.

I myself will spend more money to be at least somewhat self sufficient if the other choice means waiting 90 minutes for a healbot to get into the group. Even if this isnt your the "preferred" method of play, why would someone not learn to be self sufficient, when being so opens so many more doors?

cpito
04-22-2010, 01:41 PM
Why do so many clerics refuse to heal? Because so many players make it an overly difficult job. Because too many party wipes have been blamed on a cleric's inability to follow/heal 5 different characters going 3 different directions. Because there's NOTHING a cleric can do about a toon with 120 hp getting critted for 200+ damage. I could go on and on...

Why did I make a cleric if I don't want to heal? Because very often "Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog" (ie: the command spells) is cheaper on my mana pool that 7 or 8 cure spells and as an added side bonus, it lowers melee's repair bills. Because bringing a comet down on mobs is FUN! Because I love my Voldemortesque skull of death. Because my purple lightening is way cool! Because bb+fw=stirfry! Because there's no save on searing light...

I have two clerics... a straight healbot and a combat caster and I can say without a doubt that most quests are easier to get through, with fewer resources used, with my combat caster than with my straight healbot. My healbot does just that... she heals and she is rather one dimensional. My combat caster, on the other hand, specializes in keeping the party from taking damage that needs to be healed and when all else fails and party members scatter to the four winds and get themselves in over thier heads, she can keep herself alive, kill mobs and still be available to raise the dead.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 01:56 PM
Wait wait, all this time we've been discussing this, and the OP has three 4th level characters, and one level 10. He's played less than 3 levels of cleric, and gave it more Dexterity than Wisdom. Not one of his toons has over 100 HP, and can all be brought from zero to full health with three lousy potions.

And he has an opinion he'd like to share on healing.

Impressive.

Emili
04-22-2010, 02:03 PM
Why do so many clerics refuse to heal? Because so many players make it an overly difficult job. Because too many party wipes have been blamed on a cleric's inability to follow/heal 5 different characters going 3 different directions. Because there's NOTHING a cleric can do about a toon with 120 hp getting critted for 200+ damage. I could go on and on...

Why did I make a cleric if I don't want to heal? Because very often "Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog" (ie: the command spells) is cheaper on my mana pool that 7 or 8 cure spells and as an added side bonus, it lowers melee's repair bills. Because bringing a comet down on mobs is FUN! Because I love my Voldemortesque skull of death. Because my purple lightening is way cool! Because bb+fw=stirfry! Because there's no save on searing light...

I have two clerics... a straight healbot and a combat caster and I can say without a doubt that most quests are easier to get through, with fewer resources used, with my combat caster than with my straight healbot. My healbot does just that... she heals and she is rather one dimensional. My combat caster, on the other hand, specializes in keeping the party from taking damage that needs to be healed and when all else fails and party members scatter to the four winds and get themselves in over thier heads, she can keep herself alive, kill mobs and still be available to raise the dead.

A long long time ago, when DDO was young, I observed that that the Cleric is the drummer in the group, I have always treated the sword arm of my fighter as an extension of theirs, I have always watched bars ... health bars and mana bars to deem how well we were doing within the quest - yes I'm eyeing other people's mana bars even from my fighter.

Heathier is one of my oldest characters ... when drow first came out I rolled her up originally as an ranger. Berzerk and Akirra came to me and told me - you should build a cleric... before that time the only really strong spell casting character I had was Rosewood (my bard) and I was reluctant somewhat to take on the role of clericing -center stage - as I knew even then the class was not only the most powerful but as such the most intense ... when things go wrong the cleric (especially in those days) was often the class to set things back right. They buttered me up with comments of how a great cleric I would play... I rerolled her as a cleric and as such added much more to my understanding once "behind the wheel" per-say. Originally built a heal-bot and turned casting cleric along with Gianthold and enhancement respects came to be... I have to admit I stepped into luck with the class quite often... then again the class is extremely versitile. The character has solo'd many at level quest she has saved epics and raids from utter disaster and had eased a bad pug group into being a good pug group... tyically many things much more difficult to do from many another class. My FvS quite the same...


You picked a good name for yourself.

Maybe so and then again maybe not...


Wait wait, all this time we've been discussing this, and the OP has three 4th level characters, and one level 10. He's played less than 3 levels of cleric, and gave it more Dexterity than Wisdom. Not one of his toons has over 100 HP, and can all be brought from zero to full health with three lousy potions.

And he has an opinion he'd like to share on healing.

Impressive.

... and possibly more reason for his observation. Fact being as he stated within those levels of play ... this is what he's experiencing, and possibly quite often. If I had to wager as to why? It's because an inexperienced player behind the keyborad of a barbarian is not so obvious as and inexperienced player behind the keyboard of a cleric or FvS. The OP's observastion is just as he states ...what he's esperienced thus far. The OP poised a question... and few people took the time or read between the lines to clarify exactly what the question was or where it was even how he arrived at asking such. The impression the OP left on me was not of noob - possibly newbie - yet as I read the post did not feel it constituted a troll but more of a search for answers as to why he's experiencing such.

Since Mod 9 we experienced such a influx of uncertanty about the average player base... We are in someways revisiting January 2005... In guild, I take the cleric and FvS classes under wing (always have) because I know how important the class to be. I have always given those respresenting my clann who cleric special attention, now even moreso. My FvS shot up from level 1 to level 20 within a couple weeks ... and I was not even concentrating on that as any goal... I do remember however as I ran all those low thru mid level groups in pugs where attitudes and play styles conflict what things be like... I've come across clerics and other FvS who had next to full mana bars come end of the quest - without them stopping at a shrine - and sad to tell even those I personally dropped off at a res shrine. ;)

Kalari
04-22-2010, 02:04 PM
To answer the OP why not?

Many people have reasons to make healers, some may want to have that party role filled for their group of friends or guild. Some may do it because its the one class that is readilly accepted into all parties and raids.

But there are some who played clerics in pen and paper had fun doing so and actually enjoy the class.

And just because you have boobs out there who want to tell you how to play the class and want you to nanny and baby sit them dont mean you have to. And many after level 11 come to find out they can play their clerics the way they wish to or solo and finding people who appreciate you can be done in this game.

I know why I still play my clerics and love them 1. I play them within my guild who appreciate me. 2. I built them the race and around the lore I wished to involve myself with (Elves of the Undying court) 3. Ive learned how to use my spells the way I wish to from buffing, heals and combat. I think once a person realizes that their clerics are theres to do whatever makes them happy with and screw anyone who tries to tell them (unless they are paying for your sub) how to play. You'll see a lot less complaining at least from the clerics ;):):)

DevKiller
04-22-2010, 03:09 PM
Wait wait, all this time we've been discussing this, and the OP has three 4th level characters, and one level 10. He's played less than 3 levels of cleric, and gave it more Dexterity than Wisdom. Not one of his toons has over 100 HP, and can all be brought from zero to full health with three lousy potions.

And he has an opinion he'd like to share on healing.

Impressive.

This just made my day!

I have no clerics to speak of and will probably never role one, I have group with many clerics good and bad and I have seen several styles of play, the best I have seen so far is Anthem's style which is more offense type and I can tell you from experience that clerics like him never miss a heal and becasue of their play they tend to conserve much more mana then clerics who sit back and just heal.

As for clerics who don't heal, well I have wands and pots and as a melee class I typically make sure to protect the casters and clerics but I can tell you if the cleric is only worried about himself then I take my axe and help someone else out. All I want to do is have fun and complete the quest, DDO is set up so that you can build and play your characters anyway you like if you don't like it then spend the cash and get hierlings and you can be the puppet master.

You say clerics SHOULD heal and I say play your toon how you like but you SHOULD be self sufficient as it is better for the entire group if you are so pots and wands o plenty, if your lucky and get a good group you won't use a single one.

Emili
04-22-2010, 03:25 PM
This just made my day!

I have no clerics to speak of and will probably never role one, I have group with many clerics good and bad and I have seen several styles of play, the best I have seen so far is Anthem's style which is more offense type and I can tell you from experience that clerics like him never miss a heal and becasue of their play they tend to conserve much more mana then clerics who sit back and just heal.

As for clerics who don't heal, well I have wands and pots and as a melee class I typically make sure to protect the casters and clerics but I can tell you if the cleric is only worried about himself then I take my axe and help someone else out. All I want to do is have fun and complete the quest, DDO is set up so that you can build and play your characters anyway you like if you don't like it then spend the cash and get hierlings and you can be the puppet master.

You say clerics SHOULD heal and I say play your toon how you like but you SHOULD be self sufficient as it is better for the entire group if you are so pots and wands o plenty, if your lucky and get a good group you won't use a single one.
I do not see where the OP called out Amaranth nor targeted anyone in particular aside from strong healing classes who do not use the potential of the class... if one feels he targeted them then maybe they should ask him ... "When did we play together?" Instead people took his words to be some troll, firing away at him and as he backed off into a corner defensively ... sure may appear to reafirm such - still poised in a defensive manner. His disclaimer was in the OP however. "I know this isnt their ONLY job... "

cpito
04-22-2010, 03:31 PM
I do not see where the OP called out Amaranth nor targeted anyone in particular aside from strong healing classes who do not use the potential of the class... if one feels he targeted them then maybe they should ask him ... "When did we play together?"


Actually, the OP targeted people who DO use the full potential of the class because clerics can do so very much more than just healing.

SquelchHU
04-22-2010, 03:40 PM
Now I realize my personal experience on the subject is a bit limited since my Cleric is only level 9. However I don't just watch myself in a group so I have quite a bit of experience watching what other Clerics are doing.

The way I see it, the 'role' of the Cleric is damage prevention. If that means healing than yeah sure, go for it. But healing is not the only means of preventing damage and is not always the best way. If a 'Sit boy!' (Greater Command) or a circle dance (Blade Barrier) does the job better then by all means go for it. Only focusing on healing is only using a fraction of your potential, and even if your only goal is 'keep the party alive' it is still a suboptimal means of doing that if that is all you are doing. Now in raids... yeah, that changes a bit. Spamming mass cures or mass heal really is the best thing you can do for your group. Just consider your options, that's all.

Emili
04-22-2010, 03:42 PM
Actually, the OP targeted people who DO use the full potential of the class because clerics can do so very much more than just healing.


Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.


Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing


... and refusing to heal others is encompassing full potential? As stated... he believes one may heal themselves, he knows for a fact there are many aspects of the cleric and favored soul and he states again he's encountered many who potentialy play more team oriented ...

My answer for him is still that an inexperienced player sticks out more on a cleric or FvS then it does on any other class...

GeorgeA
04-22-2010, 03:49 PM
Divine casters have many more tricks besides Healing and Blade Barriers.
Play with your spells sometime. Learn them.

I am very new to the game. and have a lot to learn. But i am familiar with other MMOs.

I have a lvl 5 warpriest cleric and in tough quests I am usually requested to just heal. Some times i don't mind, but it can be sereasly boring for someone who is usd to playing a warrior or a paladin. I would prefer a group which would alow me to get in there and use AoEs that are very useful. But as a cleric i know that my main function is expected to be healing.

A cleric can do a lot more then just heal, he has awesome AoEs and CCs, yes i would agreee that he shouldnt be doing much melee. He should concentrate on healing and AoE and CCs.

But you know your in a bad or a ill geared group, where u dont find time to do anything but heal.

I also find that a lot of ppl dont use scrolls, potions or their own buffs and heals, which make it very hard on the healer.

Emili
04-22-2010, 04:05 PM
Now I realize my personal experience on the subject is a bit limited since my Cleric is only level 9. However I don't just watch myself in a group so I have quite a bit of experience watching what other Clerics are doing.

The way I see it, the 'role' of the Cleric is damage prevention. If that means healing than yeah sure, go for it. But healing is not the only means of preventing damage and is not always the best way. If a 'Sit boy!' (Greater Command) or a circle dance (Blade Barrier) does the job better then by all means go for it. Only focusing on healing is only using a fraction of your potential, and even if your only goal is 'keep the party alive' it is still a suboptimal means of doing that if that is all you are doing. Now in raids... yeah, that changes a bit. Spamming mass cures or mass heal really is the best thing you can do for your group. Just consider your options, that's all.

Early DDO history... Many clerics were what one would lump into the role of "heal-bot." The main reason why? Well it's not hard to figure out a level cap of 10 and four enhancements poised only one such class with the greatest healing potential... It is also not hard to figure out that a haggle score of 30-40 was not common and that the first few melee such as barbs and fighters had squat as an income where the best items to be pulled - ml 8 - were rare... +5 mith FP was not common, +5 weapon? we were all farming threnal arena and the Retribution was a much sought after weapon... carrying 100 cure potions back then ... you were one of the elite. Rangers were an iffy build and Pallys the golden child. The cleric was the backbone of any group.

It was not until the enhancement system openned that our clerics could actually break mold and achieve potentials beyond the scope of walking shrines... but with such comes another reconning ... The best BC's heal also, the best of casting clerics heal also ... the power is still greatest in those who grasp and persue the full scope of the class. Still the cleric is the backbone of any group... self-sufficiency is appliable yet, the occasional toss of a heal from a casting class wields less resource used - including one you cannot buy back - time.

I am happy we've great players at the keyborad behind the cleric and fvs ... fact is however when you have an inexperienced one it sticks out moreso than on any other class. When you're in group with a great played cleric ... the group shines more then any group where the cleric is a tad behind. Bloody quite simple.

I've raided and even run Epics without a cleric/FvS or even bard present... yet one cannot deny what one good cleric brings to the table in group play assures less resource, less time, less struggle and risks.

cpito
04-22-2010, 04:21 PM
and refusing to heal others is encompassing full potential? As stated... he believes one may heal themselves, be knows for a fact there are many aspects of the cleric and favored soul and he states again he's encountered many who potentialy play more team oriented ...

My answer for him is still that an inexperienced player sticks out more on a cleric or FvS then it does on any other class...



Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.

No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.


Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing

I think the problem with the OP is that he says he knows a cleric can do more than heal but then goes on to pigeon-hole them into strictly healers anyway and assumes that those who don't heal in an environment where self-healing is very possible (in most cases) are being selfish.

Stuttrboy
04-22-2010, 04:28 PM
Divine casters have many more tricks besides Healing and Blade Barriers.
Play with your spells sometime. Learn them.


I don't mind healing. As long as you don't expect me to use expensive pots and scrolls and wands because you couldn't be bothered to wear a heavy fort item, or fight in the blade barrier/fire wall, ignore the shrine at half health or otherwise play stupid. I can even handle to stupidity as long as you are willing to accept that I'm not using non-renewable resources on you.

taurean430
04-22-2010, 04:41 PM
Okay then, let's go back to the original post. And how it's original tone was interpreted by this user:
*Warning: incoming wall of text*



Ok first off I am well aware that relying 100% on the groups healer will get you killed its why I love me some UMD and/or Arcane WF (or other self-healing classes) but at the same time why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.

Player seems to understand that they should make effort avoiding being dependent on everyone else in a regular quest group.

Player appears to take issue with Clerics that are either battleclerics, offensive casting clerics, or perhaps any cleric that isn't constantly healing them?

Player appears to want more healbot/nannybot type clerics joining lfm's he's started or is part of.


I know this is gonna get me truck loads off neg-rep (because apparently disagreeing with people is discouraged here) but why did you make a cleric in the first place if you didnt want to heal...it would be like a wizard who ignores the fact that he has spells and only melees things or a Rogue who refuses to do traps...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

Reading further the person suggests his opinion will not be popular with Clerics or healing classes.

Player poses the question seemingly to all healing classes why did you make your toon if you won't constantly heal me, so I don't have to do it myself?

Player goes on to make far out comparisons of what he believes classes should do.


I may be wrong but I'm guessing you went cleric for to be a self-healing char...BUT there's many options for this....A ranger, A Paladin, A Rogue w/ UMD, a WF Wizard, A Bard, etc. not to mention multitude of possible Multiclasses.


Player goes further to state indirectly that unless you are a healbot/nannybot type cleric you should reroll.



No other class gets to refuse to do what they were designed to do (except some Multiclasses where they have to explain WHAT they do...but thats another story) so what makes Clerics so special...I've never heard a pure/mostly pure rogue not join a group because their looking for a trapmonkey (Never Met a rogue past the harbor without trapskills) or a Barbarian refuse to rage.

Note: I know other classes can heal to too...but ya know I've never had a Bard complain about healing


More left field comparisons and supporting statements regarding the healbot or nothing proposition presented.


Overall tone of the post = negative.
Wide and varied generalizations abound within the supporting argument.
Player has made clear to this user that they believe that any healing class exists to only heal.


That's what I got out of it when I read it. As a player who controls a divine caster who does in fact heal in any group they are part of... I am annoyed at this point. Fact is that many people who play healing classes are not fond of being pigeonholed into the role of healbot. Personally I'd rather watch grass grow than sit at the computer scanning red bars and dumping everything I have into them to keep them full constantly to the exception of anything else. I'm sorry, but that isn't even remotely fun imho.

Gone to cap twice now with my healing toon, and working on the third. And in my observations in that merry go round of leveling I've noticed this attitude repeatedly. Frankly if I fufill the major class strength of my toon (keeping the party alive), from levels 1-20... If, all the way up to level 18 content I kill things just as much as I heal by way of spell or melee... If, I have no problem adjusting my play to what the situation demands (dual scimmies of various type vs. potency item and healing sceptre)... who really has the right to make that type of assertion?

On my melee specc'd FvS/Monksplash, I play just fine in meeting what is needed. There is no way that I'm going to go as far as not using the myriad of other tools at my disposal simply because someone feels my job is to constantly pump hp into them to the exception of anything else. It's not a stretch at all to see in game players that hold this opinion:

1. Not carrying basic status aliment cures.
2. Not utilizing fortification.
3. Drawing aggro and forcing me to steal it back while healing them because they can't handle it without dying.
4. Complaining that I am not nannying them.

There is a difference between being a selfish player who demands everyone else to fix everything for them, vs. a player that at least tries. This too goes into the concept of teamwork. A good healer will keep you alive in fights. This doesn't extend to constantly spamming cures to the exception of having any fun at all.

Emili
04-22-2010, 04:48 PM
I don't mind healing. As long as you don't expect me to use expensive pots and scrolls and wands because you couldn't be bothered to wear a heavy fort item, or fight in the blade barrier/fire wall, ignore the shrine at half health or otherwise play stupid. I can even handle to stupidity as long as you are willing to accept that I'm not using non-renewable resources on you.
Exactly... yet I do not imagine many play with the intent to "put others out." I.E. I prefer the clerics call part four when deciding about handling the blades... I prefer from my own cleric - to let someone know - "Hey! you're seeming squishy, is there something I may do to help?" The scope of the team be what matters and the intent of the player should be to give what they may to the effort, you control your mana bar and likewise they and you have some control on their health bars, all bars however are "part of the group."... judgement and communication wins quests in a group as a group, otherwise it no longer is a group but a few who are having fun. I've a level 20 cleric and a FvS18/monk2 ... I been here seems forever and only offer insight of the scope of play among different groups ... fact is one adjusts to what one has to deal with on any character they happen to be playing.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 05:45 PM
We shouldn't rule out the possibility that the cleric in question wasn't refusing to heal, but was refusing to heal the OP, quite possibly for good reasons:

Remember we only have one side of the story, from a fairly inexperienced player.

It's not unusual for clerics to stop healing players who repeatedly take unnecessary damage, play recklessly, and put the whole party and the quest's completion at risk; Supposing the party's been warned about yet another trap and this player yet again incorrectly guesses he's tough enough to handle the trap damage as well as aggroing the crowd of mobs on the other side of it. What is the best answer in this bad situation?

To me, it's to drop offense spells, possibly hit Prayer and Recitaion for party advantage, refresh the Shields on the squishies and prepare for combat, crowd control, healing, and spot buffing what and where it's needed by balancing each member's squishiness, resistances, and saves, against the enemy's estimated casting, numbers, and melee threat.

Priority healing goes to the deserving party members who now have to clean up Cpt. Noobzerg's mess. Heals on him will wait for ALL other priorities to be taken care of, and if he does somehow survive, the length of the health-bar he chose leave himself with is what I'll mentally mark as his "new 100%".

Anything else only encourages that kind of continued sloppy play, and passes the problem off to his next party and cleric. We've all seen high-level characters who have no business being in a raid, and I strongly suspect for exactly this reason.

Accidents will happen and things will go sideways. Those make some of the greatest stories, good times, and the best memories of this game. I firmly believe that recovering from the accidental and the unforeseeable deserves top-playing and the best possible healing with no grudge-bearing or lesson-teaching.

Those are not the times I'm talking about here though. I'm talking about keeping valuable party assets alive by not throwing healing resources away on the truly stupid -- those who are liabilities for the whole party.

Antheal
04-22-2010, 06:42 PM
I have a question: What's the consensus (if there is one) on people who enjoy playing a "healbot" type of character? Someone who enjoys focussing solely on party support?

Zachski
04-22-2010, 06:52 PM
I have a question: What's the consensus (if there is one) on people who enjoy playing a "healbot" type of character? Someone who enjoys focussing solely on party support?

I think that you're not really using your character to its fullest potential (even a healing specced Cleric or FVS should be doing things besides healing), but if that's the way you want to play, go ahead.

EDIT: I should specify, "party support" is kind of a broad term. Sometimes it involved healing and buffing. Sometimes it involves making the enemy kneel in front of your Barbarian for decapitation.

Impaqt
04-22-2010, 07:32 PM
I have a question: What's the consensus (if there is one) on people who enjoy playing a "healbot" type of character? Someone who enjoys focussing solely on party support?



You cannot have a "Concensus" on how people like to play their own character.

Persoanlly, I find the rle of a healbot pretty boring... But some folks look at it as a badge of honor. Neither of us are "Wrong" Its just a playstyle preference.

Anthem
04-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Healbot is part of the learning curve. Clerics have incredible depth th D&D and in DDO, and healbotting is not a destination so much as a phase.

If the sole and entire goal for somebody who chooses to play a cleric is to heal, then I view them with extreme contempt for wasting their resources, risking failed missions because of it, and not doing everything they can to help their party. If they're in that phase toward becoming an actual cleric, I'll hold my contempt.

A purely heal-specced cleric will have max wisdom in order to keep their SP as high as possible, and therefore also benefit from a very high DC, which brings their Symbols and Commands into real play, so short of laziness or ineptitude, there's no reason at all that even a purely heal-spec can't be a heal/CC. After that, they're just a maximize away from being OCC clerics. Finally cash and more build points will make them melees too.

I was a healbot once too, and it took me years -- first to realize what all is possible, and then a little more to play other classes to better understand their needs/strengths/weaknesses to perfect the art and become an actual "cleric".

Now I'm quite convinced that played to their potential, clerics are grossly over-powered compared to the other classes, who seem to me one-dimensional, and ultimately not much fun to play.

When things go badly, being the cleric is unrewarding, brutally expensive, and like a goalie, we get the brunt of the blame when we can't keep everybody on their feet, BUT when our decisions, our "sixth sense (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2429818&postcount=1)", and versatility save the day, ...well it's a pretty big rush that I've never felt with other classes.

sephiroth1084
04-22-2010, 08:17 PM
While this isn't true for most high level quests and raids, I tend to avoid joining low-level groups advertising "Need a Healer," especially if they have classes that can secondary heal (Paladins, Rangers, Bards, or WF groups with casters, etc...). It just shows that the people in the group are looking to lean on someone rather than supporting themselves.

I'm not a healer, and don't play any healers, but when I go into a group, I make sure to bring potions and wands, and if I'm on my wizard, tank, ranger or rogue and see that the group is struggling, I'll step back and wand whip, scroll or whatever in order to ensure that we get by.

MeliCat
04-22-2010, 11:06 PM
Healbot is part of the learning curve. Clerics have incredible depth th D&D and in DDO, and healbotting is not a destination so much as a phase.

If the sole and entire goal for somebody who chooses to play a cleric is to heal, then I view them with extreme contempt for wasting their resources, risking failed missions because of it, and not doing everything they can to help their party. If they're in that phase toward becoming an actual cleric, I'll hold my contempt.

A purely heal-specced cleric will have max wisdom in order to keep their SP as high as possible, and therefore also benefit from a very high DC, which brings their Symbols and Commands into real play, so short of laziness or ineptitude, there's no reason at all that even a purely heal-spec can't be a heal/CC. After that, they're just a maximize away from being OCC clerics. Finally cash and more build points will make them melees too.

I was a healbot once too, and it took me years -- first to realize what all is possible, and then a little more to play other classes to better understand their needs/strengths/weaknesses to perfect the art and become an actual "cleric".

Now I'm quite convinced that played to their potential, clerics are grossly over-powered compared to the other classes, who seem to me one-dimensional, and ultimately not much fun to play.

When things go badly, being the cleric is unrewarding, brutally expensive, and like a goalie, we get the brunt of the blame when we can't keep everybody on their feet, BUT when our decisions, our "sixth sense (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2429818&postcount=1)", and versatility save the day, ...well it's a pretty big rush that I've never felt with other classes.

I use the term 'healbot' as a joke. My cleric name is a take on nannybot - the old term for it.

As new to the game, and new to MMOs generally, I always wanted to play a cleric.

And yes, I was **** at it. It was so confusing. (Hence the barb, bard, sorc and now dumb fighter). She's got to level 19 despite this and I think I've got a bit better.

But it's attitudes like this that upset me.

Yes I'm learning. I have a warning in my bio. If you ever play on Khyber please take note of my name in my sig and *do* *not* *play* with me because I will find you stressful and unpleasant.

Goes for you too Impaqt.

I want to learn. I want to have fun. I have lovely guildies who are patient with me and I can see even in myself that I have got better. I have another level 2 cleric (similiar build) that I just want to play up through because I understand it more now I've played through to end game and seen how other clerics do it.

I would like to run with Twoheals as one guildie reckons he is one of the best clerics he's seen in game.

This game is about fun. Not judgement and calling people bad names and stupid and useless and hopeless.

cpito
04-23-2010, 03:00 PM
I have a question: What's the consensus (if there is one) on people who enjoy playing a "healbot" type of character? Someone who enjoys focussing solely on party support?

I have two clerics. Joious is my healbot and then there's Jusste, the combat caster. I love playing Joi, she's my second baby and older than Jusste by almost two years but, without a doubt she is more work to play. She requires a different mindset and demands much more of my attention and there have been many evenings playing through some difficut dungeons that have left me simply exhausted. It was during the vast, mysterious, dark days, when most of the people playing got really good at DDO's limited number of quests that healbotting got really boring (omg, somebody please at least break a nail and give me something too do!) so I started playing around with some of Joi's potential. She has all those other really cool spells but is not as effective as she could be with them since she is healing specced. I like her that way. She's my money-maker and (when I'm on my game) my miracle worker but I knew I had to try a different type of cleric.

Jusste is a blast to play! Yea, she heals when she has to and tries to do most of it off scrolls (which I'm lucky enough to be able to afford) but not nearly effectively as Joi does. Instead she commands almost at will, banishes, destructs, chops, knocksdown and holds just about everything in her path. She all but gift wraps the mobs for the rest of the party. I'm gleefully looking forward to implosion! It has been my observation though that when she steps back to strictly heal, things tend not to get any better. The party really is better off if I spend my mana preventing them from getting hurt in the first place.

I know that in end-game raids, her role will change and she will be expected to heal more and I'll make sure she gets the gear to switch out to make her a better healer for those times but I'm also looking forward to my turn kiting the orthons in a VoD speed run and being back-up in ToD2 :D

Failedlegend
04-26-2010, 07:57 AM
OK there's obviously been a misunderstanding...first off yes I am a somewhat of a new player and my opinion is based off what I've experienced so far.

Anyways I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL. Here's an example that I've seen frequently...

....We start off a quest we have 2 WF and 4 Fleshies...WF = Wiz/Rog (Me) and a Barbarian Fleshies = Cleric, Another Barb, A ranger and a Fighter...We start the quest and after a few battles I notice that while The WF Barb Me and the ranger (who is handling herself) are kept mostly filled HP wise the Barb and Fighter are struggling with potions Mid-Battle, So I take a look at the Cleric's Mana bar it's full... maybe 10 or 20sp used if any at all. I ask why he's not healing and he replies I'm a Battle Cleric besides they should be self-sufficient.

Now that was NOT one occasion I just made up the classes,etc. but it seem to be the attitude of alot of the clerics ""I group with"" except my guildies...maybe I just have bad luck with PuGs. So when some of the people who replied saying that's a perfectly good cleric I couldn't understand why you could even think that. I'm actually going to try to Make My Own Cleric (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2920429&postcount=1) as a secondary character

Oh but even with the reasons given it's still kinda bad practice not to join party's that say looking for healer...party's say looking for arcane or rogue all the time and I don't refuse to join because of that quite the opposite.... sure SOME saying that might be looking for a babysitter but that's just the nature of PuGs but I guess that's your decision.

Oh and just so you don't ask yes I carry around status removing wands/pots as well as repair wands and even a few divine wands (referring to Kraite) that my UMD can handle so I can get by without a Cleric,etc. things are just ALOT easier with one it makes things alot quicker and less resource draining.

Lastly I will NEVER expect a cleric,etc. to use wands or scrolls once their mana is gone it's gone (mind you the few good clerics I've run with have little trouble conserving SP) although I won't complain if they do.

guardianx2009
04-26-2010, 12:18 PM
You know, clerics like those are the ones that gives "battle cleric" a bad rap. You just ran into a bad egg, I've run into one once myself too - my cleric was out of SP and the favored soul has 90% left, group leader asks him if he can heal plz, he said "sure" and that's it...

I don't know why some ppl when they make a melee specced cleric they think they're exempt from providing heals.

All clerics should provide healing. Battle Clerics should still have enough SP to provide healing, and they should be carrying wands to supplement their SP too.

Failedlegend
04-26-2010, 03:15 PM
You know, clerics like those are the ones that gives "battle cleric" a bad rap. You just ran into a bad egg, I've run into one once myself too - my cleric was out of SP and the favored soul has 90% left, group leader asks him if he can heal plz, he said "sure" and that's it...

I don't know why some ppl when they make a melee specced cleric they think they're exempt from providing heals.

All clerics should provide healing. Battle Clerics should still have enough SP to provide healing, and they should be carrying wands to supplement their SP too.

Well that example was just made up I was referring to multiple occasions...maybe I'm just not high enough for the bad ones to get weeded out....and while I haven't played My Battle Cleric (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2920429&postcount=1) yet it looks quite capable of healing ALMOST as well as a so-called "healbot" without sacrificing too much...but thats just in theory and from my own assumptions (which aren't based on much).

justagame
04-26-2010, 03:40 PM
I can't speak for others, but I think the now-overused quip "if you don't want to heal, why did you roll a cleric?" is a complete misrepresentation of what this issue is about.

For one, most good clerics I know don't mind healing, and even enjoy healing. I love the satisfaction of pulling a party's arse out of the fire now and then. Of course, helping said arses from getting into the fire in the first place is an equally fun part of the job. The complaint by clerics has nothing to do with "not wanting to heal" -- it's not wanting to play constant nanny to players who refuse to do the slightest thing to look out for themselves.

Secondly, the class is called cleric, not healer. Yes, clerics heal, and heal well. But it's not ALL they do. The analogy the OP used "... that's like a wizard who won't use spells" is a patently false one. Believe it or now, clerics actually get six spells per level, not just one. Expecting your cleric to do nothing but simply mash the heal hotkey over and over to make up for your lack of responsibility is actually like saying to the wizard "just stay back and keep me hasted and stoneskinned, and let me do the quest." Now, in some quests, like parts 4 and 5 of Shroud, clerics pretty much ARE healbots. But there are many, many quests in which they aren't, or at least shouldn't be. If you're not running a tough raid or endgame quest, yet need a constant healbot, YOU are the problem, not the cleric. As others have said, I try to avoid such players whenever possible. To many good clerics, an LFM for an ordinary-difficulty quest that states "need healz" is like a big neon sign that says "stay away."

Phidius
04-26-2010, 03:45 PM
... Expecting your cleric to do nothing but simply mash the heal hotkey over and over to make up for your lack of responsibility is actually like saying to the wizard "just stay back and keep me hasted and stoneskinned, and let me do the quest."...

You haven't heard this yet? It's the reason a friend of mine shelved his sorceror...

sirdanile
04-26-2010, 03:48 PM
Let's look at the rest of the clases then, shall we?

Cleric: can heal
Favored Soul: can heal
Paladin: Lay on Hands, cure spells, and cure wands, easy to get UMD high
Bard: UMD, cure spells, and cure wands
Ranger: cure spells and cure wands
Monk: (light path) Fists of Light, Healing Ki, Wholeness of Body
Rogue: UMD
Wizard: bugged to use cure wands, self heal if WF
Sorcerer: self heal if WF, easy to get UMD high
Barbarian: screwed
Fighter: plenty of feats if halfling to take Dragonmarks, otherwise screwed

So that's 2 out of 11 classes with no self healing, one of which can get it easily if the right race is played.

What exactly do you need a healer for?

Don't forget silver flame potions, my barb can solo amrath easily with them (combination dr and missive heals, as well as the fact -10 stats don't hurt a barb if you plan for it)

Fighter has a little bit harder time soloing due to the lack of X/- dr but remains effective at soloing with flame potions.

Failedlegend
04-26-2010, 04:12 PM
For one, most good clerics I know don't mind healing, and even enjoy healing. I love the satisfaction of pulling a party's arse out of the fire now and then. Of course, helping said arses from getting into the fire in the first place is an equally fun part of the job. The complaint by clerics has nothing to do with "not wanting to heal" -- it's not wanting to play constant nanny to players who refuse to do the slightest thing to look out for themselves.


This paragraph I agree with but the rest..well read on


Please read the entire thread before responding...here's one point I said somewhere up there ^^^ that nulls alot of your complaints.

I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL.

Also I said this in the OP...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

There was quite a misunderstanding about what I was complaining about and alot of posters assumed I wanted a nanny bot (and I got defensive about it because I thought they read the same thing i thought I wrote) but I was only talking about players who ignore the fact the have healing spells (Which IIRC are auto-slotted anyways) or any spells at all and just melee.

As far as the word healer = cleric I'm sorry I try to avoid using that word as it seems kinda taboo here In DDOland.....if it makes you feel better sometimes I say Wiz = caster or Fighter = The Tank or DPS.

Impaqt
04-26-2010, 09:24 PM
This paragraph I agree with but the rest..well read on


Please read the entire thread before responding...here's one point I said somewhere up there ^^^ that nulls alot of your complaints.

I am NOT saying that all Cleric,etc. should be healbots...actually they shouldn't be because their seriously lowering their usefulness...when I'm complaining about a Cleric,etc. that refusing to heal I mean AT ALL.

Also I said this in the OP...I know this isnt their ONLY job but it's their unique thing that other classes can't do (or cant do as well).

There was quite a misunderstanding about what I was complaining about and alot of posters assumed I wanted a nanny bot (and I got defensive about it because I thought they read the same thing i thought I wrote) but I was only talking about players who ignore the fact the have healing spells (Which IIRC are auto-slotted anyways) or any spells at all and just melee.

As far as the word healer = cleric I'm sorry I try to avoid using that word as it seems kinda taboo here In DDOland.....if it makes you feel better sometimes I say Wiz = caster or Fighter = The Tank or DPS.

And there is still one thing you fail to understand through all of this....

This isnt about bad "Clerics" or Bad "Healers" at all.

This is about bad Players.

You wound up in a couple bad pugs. It happens... Since DDO:U, it happens a LOT even.

You want to waste your breath complaining about bad players, knock yourself out. all kinds of threads and general chat about that all the time. Its not gonna change anything.

You wanna Complain about "Clerics" and "Healers" not doing their job, thats where I(And others) have an issue. THe issue involes YOU and some BAD players you ran with. NOT "Clerics" or "Healers".

A Good player, regardless of what their Icon is will work with the team. A Bad player will play selfishly. Its got very little do do with their class, build, or icon.

Calebro
04-26-2010, 09:40 PM
Don't forget silver flame potions, my barb can solo amrath easily with them (combination dr and missive heals, as well as the fact -10 stats don't hurt a barb if you plan for it)

Fighter has a little bit harder time soloing due to the lack of X/- dr but remains effective at soloing with flame potions.

The average Barbarian has neither the ability points to stay functional after drinking that pot, nor the favor required to get them to begin with.
You have to remember that most players are now in the f2p/premium category and simply don't have all of Necro to get that much SF favor.
So while in theory Barbs can use these pots to keep themselves healed, in a practical sense it's unlikely that they have that option. Plus, but the time that they do have that option, you're running in groups that usually have a healer rather than running BYOH quests..

joaofalcao
06-09-2010, 06:27 PM
Hi,

I play with my wife. We have many couples of characters that interact and complement each other. I got this drow cleric and she got his partner, a drow defender. We built the couple to be able to defeat the Demon Queen. Girl got AC 60 and can shield block the demon queen, while my cleric would garantee eventual damage. Flagged casters are easy to find, so firewall her would not be a problem.

I like healling my wife. Its kinda silly, but its a way to care for her when she is in danger or protecting players, wich she does a lot. Thats what a defender does best after all.

And this is reflected at other party members. I heal the guys I like, the folks that are teamplaying and contributing to the party. The liabilities, wich so often are "self suficient", that goes ahead of the party, that get stray from the defender and get silly damage, I dont heal. Those guys are often called "Squarepants Bob Sponge". Theyre a sponge, they dry up you sp. Not to speak of the spoil. Girls dont like it quick. A quest is an experience to enjoy, not a means to get xp or loot. Why players want to do things so fast? Rushing and dying usually takes more time than a little preparation. A simple neutralize poison can avoid certain death at the casters next corner, but people simply dont listen. And when players dont talk to each other on an online game, I am not having fun.

Everything is explained. When I post LFM, I always specify whats wanted. When we enter a dungeon, I always make some statements. Still, theres always liabilities.

So, a cleric may not heal party members that rush, that dont listen, that sort of stuff.

On the other hand, I ve been in a party with a cleric... that doesnt wants to be a cleric. He is always busy meleeing, getting tripped or forgetting whatsoever to heal other party members. He never dies tough. Your health going down is so much easier to realize than the other party members, I suppose. The guy is there because he wants to heal himself and likes melee. Sometimes, a cleric is just a selfish person.

Who knows whats happening? Anyone got a cristal ball? Maybe you should just ask. Have you ever tryed that? I find so funny why people are not talking to each other. Its an online game after all.

Calebro
06-09-2010, 09:01 PM
The liabilities, wich so often are "self suficient", that goes ahead of the party, that get stray from the defender and get silly damage, I dont heal. Those guys are often called "Squarepants Bob Sponge". Theyre a sponge, they dry up you sp.
There is a big difference between a self sufficient player that runs ahead and an ill prepared zerger that does the same.
If they're being a sponge, they are the latter. Not the former.
A self sufficient player, by definition, is not a sponge.

ninjaeli
06-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Wrong.
Look at my list above. Barbarians have to give something up to be self-sufficient, and most fighters.
Everyone else simply SHOULD BE self-sufficient.
And even those Barbs and Fighters should carry some potions, so where's the problem?

having alot of the aggro most of the time, and CS pots only healing for 20-30 of their 500-600+hp.
(pls give us cure critical wounds pots/wands)

bunitchu
07-06-2010, 05:57 PM
ok guys, here is thedeal i got so far:

I know many classes can find a way to self heal, some will use heal scrolls, some will use their class habilities, and some others...wand and pots.

i for example, have my lvl 13 paladin. I have good charisma, 4 lay on hands that go for 130-140(something around that, dont remember very well the numbers) right now, unwielding sov, and a huge pack of wands. If the cleric by my side, wants to comet fall the mobs, or bb them, or crowd control, all fine, everybody deserves his fun =3, and as long as i can self heal with EFFECTIVE stuff, i wont bother asking for heal. Problem is, when i run out of LoH and my unwielding is still recharging. If paladins could recover LoH use just like they do with smite, or if US had a faster recovery, all good, problems is, once the loh are done, they are done all the way to a shrine, and US recharges pretty slow, and if the cleric do not have a reliable way to help me finish fast the mobs, or if he is running low on mana and the shrine is still sort of far, i would most appreciate it, if he could spare his remaining mana for heals, at least till we reach a shrine.

I dont want a cleric that will sit on his a$$ and do nothing but heal or buff, thats a waste of potential and i would b offended by it, but a cleric must know that when a shrine is far, and his mana is already below the 50%, the time to play is over and he must work hard for keeping the group alive untill we reach shrine an b ready to go kicking stuff around again , unless he has confidence that his offensive spells or melee potential will b able to clear a path better than some dpsers beating on stuff and tearing a path open to the shrine.

i also have a cleric, and i do know how irritating it is to have a stupid punk running to his death and u have to run after him to avoid it, to in the end hear something like "the healer s.ucked, he didnt heal meee!!!", but sometimes, if the melees can do a faster job than ur spells to kill mobs, the best thing to do is to give them support so they pry the way to the shrine open with less difficulty. Clerics can help in many ways, but if they refuse to heal just because the dps could pull a wand out of his butt and start healing instead of attacking, he is just being lame and jeopardizing the group.

Point is, cleric can help in many ways, but healing will never cease to b one of them. whatever you want to do for helping your party, do it, but b sure that you can also keep an eye for ur buddies health bar, because a good cleric is not the one who sits back and heal, but the one who know when its necessary to stop doing whatever he was doing before and land a heal on a dying comrade

Volaxis
07-07-2010, 07:17 AM
You guys are right, if a group has a healer in it, then there all gimps who dont know how to play.

I understand the need to show your superiority by showing you can complete a quest without a 'nanny', but I dont see why a healer would not join an LFM that was advertising for FVS or CLR. In fact thats about 99% of groups. Perhaps your trying, in an extreme way, to show there are different play styles, but a cleric healing 4 melees will run a quest faster than 5 melees standing around waiting on the wand whip, and speed is very desirable. It also depends on context, clerics are not so vital playing heytons rest.

IMHO I'd take 5 barbs and a cleric over 6 rangers anyday.

Phidius
07-08-2010, 10:10 AM
You guys are right, if a group has a healer in it, then there all gimps who dont know how to play.

I understand the need to show your superiority by showing you can complete a quest without a 'nanny', but I dont see why a healer would not join an LFM that was advertising for FVS or CLR...

Usually it's because a quest LFM that is advertising for FvS/Clr only is composed of people who need their healbot to watch their red bar and not let it get too low. That's not fun for a majority of the clerics that I've run with, although I suppose there are a few who enjoy that playstyle.


... In fact thats about 99% of groups. Perhaps your trying, in an extreme way, to show there are different play styles, but a cleric healing 4 melees will run a quest faster than 5 melees standing around waiting on the wand whip, and speed is very desirable...

Not when you factor in the amount of time you have to wait to get that cleric. I've run the same quest twice in a row watching the LFM that's waiting for a healer.

Entelech
08-06-2010, 06:37 PM
Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.

She was NOT 'self sufficient'. She was just pathetic. She would charge off and start trying to solo some troglodyte piece of trash in melee, and would flail away at it enthusiastically after she had dragged it off into a corner away from the arcanes. And then, when she'd beat it down to 80% or so, it killed her because she was too freaking stupid to even heal herself.

Then, after whining at me for a Res, she did it again. And again. And again. She died 5 seconds into Part 2 and I left her dead.

Needless to say, Part Four was over quickly.

I don't expect *any* Cleric to play as a pure nannybot. I let the zergtastic Warforged barbarians with AC 8 die when they don't take Healer's friend when playing mine. But let's face it, if you have some major beef with casting healing spells to benefit the group, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING A CLERIC?

Most competent Clerics learn quickly to avoid the "PLZ PLZ N33D H34L3R!!!!1111" LFM's. But I believe they should also avoid referring to themselves as a "Battle Cleric". Most everyone who is NOT a Battle Cleric has learned to read "Battle Cleric" as "Window-Licking ******".

Better to not say anything and let them think you foolish than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

GBantaR
08-06-2010, 08:30 PM
...maybe I'm just not high enough for the bad ones to get weeded out....

Hehehehehe...you said "high" and "weed" in the same sentence. Naughty naughty...

justagame
08-06-2010, 08:39 PM
Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.

She was NOT 'self sufficient'. She was just pathetic. She would charge off and start trying to solo some troglodyte piece of trash in melee, and would flail away at it enthusiastically after she had dragged it off into a corner away from the arcanes. And then, when she'd beat it down to 80% or so, it killed her because she was too freaking stupid to even heal herself.

Then, after whining at me for a Res, she did it again. And again. And again. She died 5 seconds into Part 2 and I left her dead.

Needless to say, Part Four was over quickly.

I don't expect *any* Cleric to play as a pure nannybot. I let the zergtastic Warforged barbarians with AC 8 die when they don't take Healer's friend when playing mine. But let's face it, if you have some major beef with casting healing spells to benefit the group, WHY THE HECK ARE YOU PLAYING A CLERIC?

Most competent Clerics learn quickly to avoid the "PLZ PLZ N33D H34L3R!!!!1111" LFM's. But I believe they should also avoid referring to themselves as a "Battle Cleric". Most everyone who is NOT a Battle Cleric has learned to read "Battle Cleric" as "Window-Licking ******".

Better to not say anything and let them think you foolish than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

What on earth does this have to do with battle clerics? What you just described is a bad cleric, period.

GBantaR
08-06-2010, 09:02 PM
So...

The cleric telling you to heal yourself, which is something you're quite capable of doing...

...is equivalent to telling the cleric to remove the traps, which is something he's NOT capable of doing.

...

I question your intelligence.

Depends on which viewpoint you take.

The cleric refusing to heal, which would help the rogue and is something he's more than capable of doing...

IS equivalent to a rogue refusing to disarm traps, which would help the cleric and which is something he's quite capable of doing.

Logic, my friend. Logic.

GBantaR
08-06-2010, 09:11 PM
By the way, most clerics won't really care if you disable traps. Taps in this game rarely matter. Most can be timed and/or offset with resistances.

You realize that completely validated his point? If the cleric refuses to heal him, and he should do it himself, he is completely justified in refusing to disarm, because the cleric should just handle it himself.

Shaftronics
08-13-2010, 10:50 AM
Sigh...

I LOATHE the term "Battle Cleric".

There was this one Shroud run with a straight Cleric 20 on it. The group leader asked her if she was a healer and, knowing she'd have been dumped from the group in a heartbeat, she said "yes."

She then proceeded to die FOUR TIMES IN PART ONE.

Yes, that's right, somehow she managed to die in Part one. Repeatedly.


I love the term "Battle Cleric", because it allows me to play past a stigma that most people are afraid of and prove them wrong. I have had a level 11 Cleric /2 Fighter, shelved because he was on an alternate account with no adventure packs, who has outkilled melee DPS, and kept the entire party alive pretty fine and currently playing a level 9 Warforged FvS (because I can finally pay for things) who continues the "legacy" of me being a battle cleric, except as a Warforged FvS. Most people ironically don't see that as an issue.

As Impaqt has repeated time and again, you have just met a bad PLAYER, that's all. As far as I know, a "melee wizard" or something along the same line could be doing the same thing. Now all Melee-based wizards/sorcs suck now? Not really.

For any "Battle Cleric" or melee-based FvS out there, they simply need to do 2 things; "Heal good, Kill good."

Most of -anything- people complain about, be it shortcomings or whatever, are at the part of the player behind that character. If they decide not to heal, or can't multi-task or fail miserably at melee just because their strength is lower than 18 at high levels, oh well. Nothing much you can do about it.

I could whine about the Barbs who -EXPECT- heals or die all the time. I could whine about Warforged Melee who rush in, expect heals but can't have 2 AP in Healer's Friend, I could whine about the Sorcerer at level 9 who still swings a greatsword, and has absolutely no contribution to the party (self-buffed only) and at the end of the day, so what?

The noobs behind these toons are the ones that have made these choices. I don't see the CLASS being at fault. I'm so very sorry that just because Clerics and FvS are more "Required" or "needed" by parties than other classes, that they have to face a higher standard of such behavior.

hermespan
08-19-2010, 12:55 PM
why do so many Clerics either refuse to heal
Dunno, maybe they are an offensive caster, not specced for healing, and need their SP for damage. Did you ask them if they were a healer before you let them in?


or refuse to join a group asking for a healer.
This one's easy. They'll get spammed with "HEEEEALLL ME" in party chat, and probably end up using 4x more gold than they make from the quest, on wands, because the group is mentally challenged. I'd avoid PuGs like this like the plague unless it's some kind of raid, if I didn't play a cleric that only groups with my guild.


Rogue who refuses to do traps...
Maybe they aren't a trap mechanic because their int is low and they need skillpoints for UMD, balance, diplomacy, jump etc. I could see this happening with a min-max DPS build. Another possibility is they are out of tools and embarrassed to ask if someone in the group has any.

A rogues primary function, and what they are Really Good(tm) at, is DPS. Some people build them accordingly and max out DPS. Often they don't care about handling traps. There's so many people playing multiclass builds that can handle traps just as good as a trap smith rogue (everywhere but Cabal), that I wouldn't think twice about it if I did a rogue that was purely dps.


so what makes Clerics so special...
nothing. But like every other class, there's more than one way to play the class. "Healer" is just one way.

The trouble with some people that lead groups is they ask for classes, not roles, in the LFM. "Need healer and trap mechanic" is much better than "Need cleric or fvs, and rogue", because people get an accurate idea of what you are looking for and know what roles you are trying to fill.

Role != Class

This is a very important concept. Understand it, embrace it, or continue to lead horrible PuGs. DDO *is not* WoW.

In WoW, the game and your class decide your role. In D&D you and your build decide your role and what you decide your role is, is neither right nor wrong based solely on the class you play. There are only people that play their role well or badly. A battle cleric that doesn't kill much of anything is playing his role badly. A battle cleric that has a 4:1 kill ratio with the nearest party member, or is getting/holding/tanking all of the aggro so the party doesn't take any damage, is playing his role well.

There are good players and bad players.

This is one of the aspects of PnP D&D that translated utterly perfectly into the video game version. Thank you Turbine!

Just about the only version of D&D rules where this wasn't true is the original D&D box set (sold before and in parallel with AD&D first edition) that only had 3 classes, fighting man, cleric and magic user. There was no multiclassing (or thieves a.k.a. rogues) in that rule set. That was a lot more like WoW than DDO is, despite being only available on paper. It was considerably dumbed down compared to AD&D. At 64 pages, the entire ruleset was smaller than some sections in the player's handbook. It was for people that were new to role playing games. The same might be said of WoW and other class=role games, which would explain their popularity. They're easier to understand and putting groups together is more straightforward.

The price of this flexibility is that people come in from other MMOs and assume D&D is the same way. They get the impression that the player base is stupid and a good portion don't play their role, when in reality, they are the ignorant ones for not understanding D&D before they try to lead groups and mouth off about classes not playing their roles. There isn't a class in this game that has a set role.

The rabbit hole runs deep. There are always at least 3 ways to skin a cat.

"Role Playing", in the D&D sense, is more about getting into character and acting the way someone would act playing that character. It's like theater. It has nothing to do with your party role.

Then again, don't listen to me. I've only been playing D&D for 30 years.

IMHO they should remove the class buttons from the LFM screen and replace them with role buttons:
Melee DPS
Caster DPS
Crowd Control
Healer
Trap Mechanic
Tank
Party Buffer

would just about cover it and completely solve this problem. Class buttons are a bad way to do it and that idea was taken from other MMO's that aren't like DDO. Most competent players can cover 1-3 of these roles.

PopeJual
08-19-2010, 01:30 PM
Maybe they aren't a trap mechanic because their int is low and they need skillpoints for UMD, balance, diplomacy, jump etc. I could see this happening with a min-max DPS build. Another possibility is they are out of tools and embarrassed to ask if someone in the group has any.


If they put some of their gajillion skill points into Search and Disable Device (I'll even leave out Spot) and get a decent +skill item for each, they'll be able to disable every trap that they'll ever need to when they toss on a buff or two.

Level 10
+13 Search from skill points
-1 from 8 Int
+1 from Voice of the Master
+10 Skill item
+2 Heroism Potion or clicky (also helpful for DPS)
+2 from Fox Potion
That's +27 on their Search check without spending ANY AP or feats or even ability score points on any trap-related skills.

You can still spot a whole lot of traps with a +27. Add on another +5 to +7 for Thieves' Tools and you have your number for Disable Device with essentially no investment. Even at 8 Int, a nonhuman Rogue gets 7 skill points per level. They'll pick up trap busting abilities unless they put active effort into avoiding them.

I agree with pretty much the entire rest of your post, though.

der_kluge
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

PopeJual
08-19-2010, 02:13 PM
I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

This isn't exactly what you're looking for, but here's a few similar accomplishments.

How about a 2-man ToD with no Cleric or FvS?
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263172

Shade solo'd Sins of Attrition on his Barbarian. I know it's not exactly what you're asking for, but it's a Barbarian, for crying out loud. A lot of them fall over dead just from their own self-damage if they don't have a nannybot to shepherd them.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244051

Here's a fleshy Wizard who solod SoS.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243659

Capped Barbarian who solo'd Havedasher ON ELITE and even managed to get an Onslaught bonus for killing so many enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411

Saw an All-Ranger Shroud screen shot on the forums recently. Everyone in the group had the Ranger icon, so that means that they at least had fewer Cleric/FvS levels than Ranger levels. Can't find the link to that.

Phidius
08-19-2010, 02:22 PM
...
2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.


You should play the game more - Stryde does it all the time.

You need to consider player skill and gear in your declaration there.


...
3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJUO18r0jg

Notice what level they are?

SINIBYTE
08-19-2010, 02:32 PM
Only my barb really "needs" a healer. Everyone else is pretty self-sufficient.

Calebro
08-19-2010, 05:39 PM
Capped Barbarian Who Solo'd Havedasher On Elite And Even Managed To Get An Onslaught Bonus For Killing So Many Enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411

Lol! :)

der_kluge
08-19-2010, 05:48 PM
You should play the game more - Stryde does it all the time.

You need to consider player skill and gear in your declaration there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iJUO18r0jg

Notice what level they are?

They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

der_kluge
08-19-2010, 05:49 PM
Capped Barbarian who solo'd Havedasher ON ELITE and even managed to get an Onslaught bonus for killing so many enemies.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=244411


My, my - that certainly IS impressive!

Fenrisulven6
08-19-2010, 06:01 PM
Oh and just so you don't ask yes I carry around status removing wands/pots as well as repair wands and even a few divine wands (referring to Kraite) that my UMD can handle so I can get by without a Cleric,etc. things are just ALOT easier with one it makes things alot quicker and less resource draining.

I dont mind joining LFMs that say "need healer".

I often switch over to a cleric when I see such a group. Usually its a decent PUG trying a quest that challenges their limits, and they want a little insurance as backup. Gywlan's Elite, Von 3 Hard, Tear Elite (before the nerf).

But I dont play a healbot. I demonstate what can be done with spec'd Greater Command or spec'd Soundburst. Divine Healing. Holy Smite and Searing Light (cs undead). I focus mainly on crowd contol and some melee, but I also think my #1 priority is Burst Heals in combat. If I'm doing that well, then I can do whatever else I want.

ElfedLied4
08-19-2010, 06:46 PM
Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that.

They are toasters. Reconstruct heals them. (Also any other repair spell)

PopeJual
08-19-2010, 07:06 PM
They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

They were either 15th or 16th leel when the video was made. Look at the XP bar in the video. I couldn't tell if it was 15th or 16th because it was a bit blurry, but it was one of those two.

Phidius
08-19-2010, 07:19 PM
They were either 15th or 16th leel when the video was made. Look at the XP bar in the video. I couldn't tell if it was 15th or 16th because it was a bit blurry, but it was one of those two.

They were 16th level. This was one of the many interesting twists people put on the Shroud back before DDO:Stormreach became DDO:EU.

I couldn't find the screenshots of the all-wizard Elite Shroud.

Phidius
08-19-2010, 07:22 PM
They're 20th.

That's pretty impressive, I have to admit. I also noticed that the sorcerer pretty much does nothing but heals the barbarian in the last two stages. Seems like it sure would have been a lot more efficient with a cleric!! I also hate to imagine how many Heal scrolls he burned through doing that. One wonders if the money they spent on scrolls and potions was more than they acquired in loot from the quest. Not to mention the hours of time they spent on it.

You didn't notice him moving Polar Ray and Force Missles to a better spot on his hotbar at the end of part 4?

Too bad Oddlived didn't make a video of his WF Wiz soloing up to part 5.

The point is, a "healer" (defined as a cleric/FvS who does nothing but keep red bars full) isn't needed by the game, just by the people who play it... and not all of them, either.

Irinis
08-19-2010, 07:25 PM
If someone yells HEAL ME ... HEAL ME ... and they are capable of healing themselves ... I inform them that the wand and scroll vendor is in House J. ;)

Because 20 hp from cure serious on a 4 second timer will really protect against the next -200 hp after you've already taken -400 worth of those... yup. Also especially good to wand or pot yourself while incap, held, etc.

But of course a veteran player never gets held or incap. They know the secret source to get FOM pots! ;)

Bloodlance
09-03-2010, 06:29 AM
You realize that completely validated his point? If the cleric refuses to heal him, and he should do it himself, he is completely justified in refusing to disarm, because the cleric should just handle it himself.

i play a cleric (1monk/2rogue/17cleric) (lvl 11 atm)

if mana is tight and i know i need the mana to upcoming bossfight and there is a player who cant heal himself up, i say to him to fix his stuff up so he can do it, its not like its Clerics job to heal people up all the time. Healing potions is a great way to get HP 100% or healing wands if you have the UMD.

And before you say it, i can open all the locks and disarm all the traps also. so yea, in DDO you can do almost everything if you put some effort to it and plan in advance.

IF the cleric has healing aura, the after combat time can be used to aura heal people up, if the group is not speed running the quest and if they r a group they should speed run it :D

but ye, dont say if x then y, as some players can do X and Y.

sisterjinx
09-03-2010, 06:55 AM
If someone yells HEAL ME ... HEAL ME ... and they are capable of healing themselves ... I inform them that the wand and scroll vendor is in House J. ;)



First off if someone yells "HEAL ME HEAL ME" in any party I'm in they go on my list. Partly because our "healer" types are played by either one of our close friends or my husband and I know darn well they are getting healed as it is possible to do so.

Second off if we ever do have to pug a Cleric/FVS spot (it has happened on occasion) and I see them doing a darn good job I will tip them, if I see them using resources (ie wands or scrolls) to do it I will often even mail them a stack of scrolls or a couple of wands (depending on lvl) later in the day/evening or give it to them if they stick around long enough for me to do so.

And as far as lfm's with "need cleric" I don't think we've ever put "need" in there but we have put cleric/FVS preferred and will often leave it closed to other classes and go without a sixth at all if we have to.

(forum threads like this just remind me why I so appreciate our dedicated group that we usually run with.)

learst
09-03-2010, 07:08 AM
I can take near any character and solo much the game... question comes down to this? Do I want some company to play - together - or am I out only to do it myself.

Where I and many people come from - level 20 - this is the game ... all that other **** is but a fragment - a blink of a character's eye - of the time to get here.


I agree. +1 virtual rep ("You have to spread some reputation around before..)

learst
09-03-2010, 10:16 AM
You come with the attitude that a raid or an epic is somehow different... I play as a team in every quest... may be Tangleroot at level 4, Play as a team player all through the game, we're in the bloody quest together... I do not care if you're a noob and you're being a bloody eejit touching switches or what-not you should not be... you'll learn, but yes I'll still I'll heal stupid ... it eventually sinks in and they become more alert, more of a team player anyway, and they remember - This is a team. The attitude is taught socially... - when you persist in telling people - you're on your own and that's what they go with ... and come EPIC and Elite in ToD they take that same play style in there with and bloody do not know how to play as a team.


Another great piece from Emili which I totally agree, my emphasis on the bolded.

D&D to me, has always been a team game. A group of folks/characters coming together with different skills complementing each other. I hate soloing, and the only reason I do it is to experience a quest storyline or explore slowly because most folks are too in a hurry to just get it over and done with.

That's the main reason I play a bard, cos I wanna be support, a role I know that a lot of folks shy away from. I'll do whatever the party needs - buff, CC, heals, even melee. As long as we get through the quest.

Dunfalach
09-03-2010, 04:05 PM
So I have read all 11 pages of this thread. And here's my take on it.

There are 3 types of cleric being discussed as if they are 2 types of cleric here.

1. Cleric who heals no one, period, ever.
2. Cleric who spot heals as needed but is also actively involved in combat.
3. Cleric healbot who stands back and just heals and buffs while others fight.

The OP seems to have complained about #1, and some people who were #2 jumped in on the belief that he was expecting #3 to defend why they weren't #3. The OP, assuming they understood he was complaining about #1 took their justification of #2 as a justification of #1. Eventually OP realized the misunderstanding and attempted to reiterate that he was talking about #1s. Initially, this was not understood by the #2s, who viewed him as attempting to escape a mistake by claiming to have been talking about something else. Eventually, #2s accepted to some degree that he was talking about #1s, but declared #1s irrelevant to their discussion of #2s vs #3s which is the current thread topic though not apparently the intended original topic.

Nonclerics, #2s, and #3s alike all seem to be agreed that #1s are bad players. Most #2s are of the opinion that #2 is superior to #3, but if you like playing #3 that's okay, it's your char. One #2 feels that #2s are superior to #3s and if you play #3s you're a disgusting incompetent not using your class properly. But we can generally exclude that as the extreme position, as most #2s consider the #3s to be a valid playstyle, just one that would be boring to them personally.

Self-sufficiency is another thread of the argument, which was somewhat muddled initially by the confusion that self-sufficiency was being argued to justify #1s when it was really being argued to justify #2s.

One difficulty when arguing over self-sufficiency is that nobody really level-specifies their arguments. Self-sufficiency for a level 2 or 3 is much different than for a level 16 or 18, as the higher levels can afford to take care of a lot more of their own needs than the low levels can. I'm hopeful that everyone in the debate recognizes that, but not certain.

I first started learning self-sufficiency due to reading up on warforged before playing my first one, and taking to heart the advice to prepare as if you wouldn't get any heals, because some clerics refused to heal WF. I haven't encountered that myself so far, but then I usually tell the clerics not to bother healing me unless I'm getting low in the midst of combat; I find they generally appreciate knowing I'm NOT going to be screaming for heals, and generally do a great job of hitting those spot heals when I really need it.

I did just yesterday with my new level 3 wf fighter meet a guy exactly like that #1 though. He didn't heal, didn't buff, didn't swing his mace, and didn't say a word. He just followed along like a passive hireling, doing nothing. Fortunately he lost connection about 1/4 of the way through and was immediately booted for another who both healed and fought, and did so very well.

I do think that if the LFG says need cleric/fvs or need rogue, then it's entirely reasonable for the group to assume that if you answer it from those classes you are able and willing to heal, or able and willing to handle the traps for a rogue. That doesn't mean those roles are all that class can do, it simply means that an LFG that advertises for just those classes is clearly looking for those roles. Therefore, it would be disingenuous to join that particular group with no intent to fill those roles. That's separate from any discussion over whether or not people should expect those roles. Any group that specifically asks for those classes almost certainly has those roles in mind.

If a group doesn't specify any special looking for, and a cleric joins, the party leader should probably ask and the cleric should probably volunteer whether they're okay being a primary healer. If neither happens, then both sides are failing to communicate rather than just one. But I do know it's an intimidating thing on both sides. The party leader is afraid of getting either a very rude no, or a very rude of course as an answer. The cleric who's not planning to be a primary healer for the group is afraid of getting kicked for one that is. But both sides are probably better off finding out they have different expectations before the quest than in the middle of it. This doesn't mean I don't still make the mistake of not asking sometimes as a party leader.

I keep saying cleric because I was actually on DDO for several months before I knew that a FvS could be a primary healer. I hadn't encountered many FvS, and all those that I did encounter were melee specs who almost exclusively self-healed. So I got used to treating a FvS as being essentially a fancy paladin. Good for a pinch heal here or there, but generally busy in the battle line. I first learned that they could do primary healing in reading a forum thread. :>

Failedlegend
09-03-2010, 04:42 PM
So I have read all 11 pages of this thread. And here's my take on it.

There are 3 types of cleric being discussed as if they are 2 types of cleric here.

1. Cleric who heals no one, period, ever.
2. Cleric who spot heals as needed but is also actively involved in combat.
3. Cleric healbot who stands back and just heals and buffs while others fight.

Awesome summary...cut from quote for brevity...see previous post please

I've been follwoing this thread mostly just to lurk and hadnt planned to post again due to the hostile nature of the responses I got but I felt the need to thank you...nice summary I'm glad at least a few people got my point +1 to your sir

taurean430
09-03-2010, 05:20 PM
I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.


1. If you don't make a minimal effort to avoid taking heavy damage faster than my cooldowns, you will spend most of the quest in my backpack. Outside of a raid situation, it borders on insulting to me personally to expect everyone else to do everything for you. People will receive appropriate buffs and mass/spot heals dependent on the situation. However, requiring health pumped into you to the degree that I have seen in many pugs to date is not needed. It coddles poor play, and has been the main contributor regarding capped toons full of fail. They were carried and powerhealed to cap and know very little on how to keep themselves alive in a quest. And they are the very first to blame others for their own ineptitude.

2. It's funny that you mention that. I've seen Favored Souls or Clerics tank raid bosses alone. Can any of your uber dps toons do that? I have personally finished a boss fight in a raid with no mana left to heal myself following a near wipe. I've also led the infamous kill count in many a high level quest. It means nothing as it's a team effort. The amount of damage any toon can do does not entitle them to subjugating another player into merely following them around spamming cures/heals/buffs. Think about it for a minute... Do you honestly think that every player who has ever rolled up a class/multiclass with any healing capability did so for the exclusive purpose of babysitting you?


3. I think you'll have to come up with a much better example than Shroud. Nearly everyone posting in this thread agree that raids require dedicated heals. Incidentally, 'healer' is a role. It's not a class in this game. This slot can be filled by a large percentage of the classes available in this game. This is why one will see all (insert class here) Shroud/VOD/TOD/Abbot runs. Put frankly: if you honestly believe that the only purpose of classes with any healing capability is to sit back and watch red bars, you have some marked tunnelvision.

I have melee toons, arcane casting toons, healing toons. In addition I have some rather interesting multiclass experiments that I solo with only. It is expected and perhaps unwritten (really should be written): that if your primary goal is dps, and you are not in a raid setting, take steps to not be an drain on the resources of others. If you can't do that, expect to find yourself waiting around for a 'healer' And when you do find one and repeatedly get yourself killed by playing selfishly, expect to stay dead from one shrine to the next.

Nezichiend
09-03-2010, 06:56 PM
/snips
2. It's funny that you mention that. I've seen Favored Souls or Clerics tank raid bosses alone. Can any of your uber dps toons do that? I have personally finished a boss fight in a raid with no mana left to heal myself following a near wipe. I've also led the infamous kill count in many a high level quest. It means nothing as it's a team effort. The amount of damage any toon can do does not entitle them to subjugating another player into merely following them around spamming cures/heals/buffs. Think about it for a minute... Do you honestly think that every player who has ever rolled up a class/multiclass with any healing capability did so for the exclusive purpose of babysitting you?


As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

Karavek
09-03-2010, 07:04 PM
Unbelievable, adequate healing is a major part of a balanced group, just like having an arcane, a melee and a rogue is too.

Not every player is TR'ed, geared up to the hilt or wealthy enough to be able to be self sufficient.

Having a group with all but one of the above and therefore asking for it is nothing to be ashamed of.

Imp is right. Saying NEED A HEALER is a warning to all real healers to stay away lest they meet the team that has them burning through wands. There is indeed no end to high end content that makes many feel a healer is essential, however that does not mean every healer is going to jump at it.

Karavek
09-03-2010, 07:09 PM
As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

letting others die as you put it is not griefing. Anyone is free to use heal pots, or buy res pots if they die and yes I expect people to just to support the game I want to see thrive;). Actually nothing about a DPS specced non caster class actually outpaces the dps a caster/battle cleric can do. One can spec to be a caster/battle cleric, still heal pretty well, and nothing anywhere says they ahve to waste a point of mana on another player. Ive burned no few wands in my day getting groups through some hard things, not heard one tahnks nor recieved a coin to help recover my used up supplies.

I expect everone to do whatever it takes to take care of themselves if they cant do it purely through in game means then time to spend real cash. If your to cheap to do that you dont need to roll with me and expect me to burn my play time watching you do the fun stuff.

vVAnjilaVv
09-03-2010, 07:35 PM
It's simple OP, clerics are a class that can heal very well, but they are not nor meant to be solely healers.

Any cleric that is only a healbot IMO is a disgrace to this awesome and powerful class, and I personally can't stand being in raids/quests where the dippy healbots can't even play a healbot because they don't know how to defend themselves and/or have adapted the philosophy that if they are not actually doing any offense that they are completely safe.

A REAL cleric is never going to join a "need a healer" group because there is nothing more annoying than only using 1/3 of your builds capabilities to keep alive a bunch of meatheads who have no tact.

Dunfalach
09-03-2010, 07:36 PM
I expect everone to do whatever it takes to take care of themselves if they cant do it purely through in game means then time to spend real cash. If your to cheap to do that you dont need to roll with me and expect me to burn my play time watching you do the fun stuff.

Without regard to the issue of expecting the cleric to be nothing but a healbot, do please take into consideration when advising the spending of real money that with American unemployment at record levels, a lot of people have to watch every dollar they spend. I'm sure some of our European friends are experiencing the same thing. Buying stuff from the DDO Store is not feasible for every person playing. I've got a job, and thank the Lord I do, but the times I have spare cash for games are very rare and mostly saved up for adventure packs or other things more important to my longer term DDO enjoyment. That said, I do try to be as self-sufficient as my in-game cash allows for most of the time. One of the things that made buying warforged a good use of my points was that long list of immunities I don't have to buy fixes for. ;)

Karavek
09-03-2010, 07:39 PM
Last time I checked, a single bard/rogue level would unlock the skill. Just like the fighter will have to take rogue levels for his DD. To me, it is extremely simple: refuse to heal, deal with what you can't deal with.

I've done it some times in the past days and did not get any bad comments about this... Well, beside from the clerics who died this way, but it's a good thing they won't come with me in the group anymore :)

that was the point. A pure rogue can self heal quite well, a pure cleric cant disable traps though they can frequently walk past them as if they dont exist.

The other point is that you dont have a right to expect someone to waste thier resources on you like mana. A battle cleric or caster cleric has the right to do as they like for play. However a trap monkey is a trap monkey. If they are an assassin or a acrobat I dont even care if they cant trap that was as valid a choice to me as not being a healer as a cleric.

But if you can trap then trap. If you want someone else to use spells on you give thema stack of mana pots or some wands.

Karavek
09-03-2010, 07:45 PM
Without regard to the issue of expecting the cleric to be nothing but a healbot, do please take into consideration when advising the spending of real money that with American unemployment at record levels, a lot of people have to watch every dollar they spend. I'm sure some of our European friends are experiencing the same thing. Buying stuff from the DDO Store is not feasible for every person playing. I've got a job, and thank the Lord I do, but the times I have spare cash for games are very rare and mostly saved up for adventure packs or other things more important to my longer term DDO enjoyment. That said, I do try to be as self-sufficient as my in-game cash allows for most of the time. One of the things that made buying warforged a good use of my points was that long list of immunities I don't have to buy fixes for. ;)

Not saying if your broke or jobless to go beg on the street to feed your game habit. But if like me and many gamers I have known, actually have quite a surplus of cash for whatever reason, then throw some bones the way of the DDO dog.

Buying advent packs is the smart way to invest for sure and I am thankful to anyone who does choose to do that.

PopeJual
09-03-2010, 08:04 PM
The other point is that you dont have a right to expect someone to waste thier resources on you like mana. A battle cleric or caster cleric has the right to do as they like for play.

They have a right to run with a 6 con, 80 HP at level 20 turn-undead specced drow gimpatron if they want to. That doesn't mean it's a good choice and I'll probably let them know what I think of them if they make that choice, too.

I don't expect anyone to "waste" their consumeable resources. I don't expect them to chug mnemonic pots to keep me alive. I don't expect them to wand whip the entire party in between fights. I don't expect them to drain their entire blue bar to keep a 0% fortification Death Frenzied Warforged Barbarian with no healing amp alive.

I do expect them to burn just a little of their renewable resources so that I don't have to spend a thousand plat and 10 minutes per quest chugging pots when they could have thrown a heal and a mass cure or two to do what I needed a full stack of pots to do.

I want *everyone* to use their renewable resources efficiently and effectively so that no one has to use their consumeable resources except in extraordinary circumstances.

biggin
09-03-2010, 08:06 PM
But if you can trap then trap. If you want someone else to use spells on you give thema stack of mana pots or some wands.

Do you give a rogue Thieves Tools everytime you want him to pick a lock?

Karavek
09-03-2010, 08:17 PM
Do you give a rogue Thieves Tools everytime you want him to disarm a trap?

actually whenever I find stacks of good rogue tools I immediatly send them to any rogue I know who has mentioned lacking the favor needed to access buying +4s from the free agent vendor.

However the cost of tools and thier frequent drop rate really makes that comparison to costly healing items seem very slanted and lack any real impact as a point being made.

biggin
09-03-2010, 08:22 PM
actually whenever I find stacks of good rogue tools I immediatly send them to any rogue I know who has mentioned lacking the favor needed to access buying +4s from the free agent vendor.

However the cost of tools and thier frequent drop rate really makes that comparison to costly healing items seem very slanted and lack any real impact as a point being made.

Actually that's exactly the point. If you've been playing since 06 and you can't easily cover the cost of wands and scrolls you're doing something wrong. I easily spend less on my cleric on wands/scrolls than I do damage on my Barbs gear from tanking raids.

Any cleric worth anything can keep any decent PUG battle healed with little to no resources. If you can't then maybe it's not everyone elses fault.

taurean430
09-04-2010, 12:34 AM
As a cleric with mainly cleric levels I would say your role is to keep the dps sustainable, which means keeping the dps alive, if that means healing someone who is doing cc, fine. I really couldn't care less if you are a battle-cleric or not. Your secondary role could be dps or crowd control, whatever you want. But you still must keep people alive. That is your role. You will not EVER do as much damage as a well-spec'd and geared fighter/barb/paladin or other dps classes. That doesn't mean you can't contribute, but when you want to melee and you let other people die who do more damage than you, you are greifing.

My 'role' is to have fun playing. And I've made it very clear in other posts I have in these forums how negatively I feel about healbot only divine builds. Some people have fun playing them, I don't. I am still of the opinion that it's as interesting to play a healbot as it is to watch grass grow. Roles, as you define them work very well for most raid settings and perhaps three or four quests in this game to date. For the overwhelming majority of content in this game, it's reasonable to expect people to play the game intelligently. It's also reasonable to come to the understanding that if you are playing badly and die that blaming the 'healer' is pretty sad. Regardless of what character I'm on, I'll contribute and take steps not to die in a quest. The same cannot be said for many, many players out there.

I could care less what type of damage numbers I do compared to a frenzy barb outside of most raids. I've never griefed anyone ever. Yet I have no problem letting people learn that repeatedly taking heavy damage from mobs/traps/enviornment effects will leave you dead. The whole argument consisting of I am a max dps whatever so you should follow me around spamming heals is bunk. In the game proper, the majority of people I have encountered that knee jerk to that argument are the same ones who showed up to the quest with little to no health/don't know how to back out of a fight/run rooms ahead of the party for kill count bragging rights/run repeatedly through traps etc...

I've seen plenty of cases bad healing and made comment about most of them. I've seen far more bad dps. There is nearly always a shortage of people willing to roll up toons that heal. Ever wonder why that is?

Calebro
09-04-2010, 01:28 AM
I've seen plenty of cases bad healing and made comment about most of them. I've seen far more bad dps. There is nearly always a shortage of people willing to roll up toons that heal. Ever wonder why that is?

^this^
.... kind of.

There are plenty of Clerics and Favored Souls out there. Tons of them, in fact. But they run with guildies and/or solo because they don't want to deal with the common PUG mentality that their blue bar is one giant band-aid.
It's specifically the mentality that taurean spoke of that causes them to not pug, go anon, and therefore not "exist" for the puggers to pike with.

Every single "healer" that I've ever played is set to anon. There's a reason for that.
None of my other toons are anon....

Entelech
09-28-2010, 01:24 AM
I think a big part of the bitterness in this debate is the resource-intensive nature of Epic content.

There's nothing like burning 30,000 plat worth of scrolls and potions to keep some pugger group alive, only to have them ninja all the epic scrolls and log out.


I also think that the lack of XP available to TR'ed characters at high level contributes greatly to the problem. Some guy working on Life 5.17 gets really upset when a newbie, or a guy on an experimental build, costs them that 10%. The screaming that results turns a lot of players off to the 'elitist a-hole mentality' and causes them to avoid seeking advice or from taking it when offered.

And let's face it. NOBODY on their first toon to cap is going to be able to keep up with a multiple-TRed hardcore zergathon.

Entelech
09-28-2010, 01:33 AM
By the way...has anyone also been noticing a shortage of tanks?

I see a lot of VoD's and Hounds that sit waiting ages for a chew toy.

If none of the Clerics want to be bothered with healing, how long is a tank going to be able to do his job? I suspect the problems are related.

DrNuegebauer
09-28-2010, 02:06 AM
I haven't read all of this 10 page thread, so I'll probably end up repeating things already said, but I'm going to say them anyway.

1. If you show up in a group with a cleric icon next to your name, and you don't heal, or you suck at it, people aren't going to like you very much.

2. No "battle cleric" will ever do as much damage as a barbarian, fighter, or paladin of their level. No way. No how.

3. I want someone to post a video of Shroud Part IV/Part V that's done WITHOUT a healer. Seriously, I want to see that. The only conceivable way this could be done is you've got a party full of harry-beating tanks that are just uber, or you've got a group with a bunch of UMD using rogues and bards with HEAL scrolls that make a fair substitute. The first isn't going to happen randomly, and the second would get wicked expensive after a while.

I think you're confusing a few things - and the points you make pretty clearly show your confusion.

On point 2: correct. However "ubaaaa DPS isn't needed to complete a quest - the amount a cleric or FvS can put out (if specced) is plenty enough. You are attempting to suggest that a cleric or FvS NEEDS a barb/fighter/pally (you left out rogue/ranger btw) - but not equalling the DPS and NEEDING the DPS is a different thing altogether.

On point 3: you contradict your point 2 here. You might be right that you can't do a Shroud part IV or V without a 'hJealer' - however 12 FvS/ clerics could quite easily complete a Shroud part IV or V. IE - they don't NEED the melee to do it. (it might not be optimal - but absolutely doable)


And that comes back to the point being argued by so many in this thread: who wants to follow gimps around and top up their red bars WHEN THEY JUST DON'T NEED TO?

I still say anyone who thinks there needs to be more HJealers on their server should just roll one and get on with it.

Entelech
09-28-2010, 02:57 AM
I still say anyone who thinks there needs to be more Healers on their server should just roll one and get on with it.

+1 rep. QFT.

Not only that, but if you've capped a Healer or two, you'll be familiar with all the things that DRIVE A HEALER NUTS and won't do them.

Orratti
09-28-2010, 03:32 AM
Why a cleric? I originally built a cleric because I wanted to be able to heal myself. I could also heal people that were helping me.